Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.5 (Chapters 1-2)

Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.

We return to Hawkins, where there are quarantine checkpoints, military surveillance, and the Party is committed to finding Vecna.

In this episode, we will discuss "The Crawl" and "The Vanishing of Holly Wheeler".

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome back to kinfolklore.We're here today to return to Hawkins,
where there are quarantinecheckpoints, military surveillance,
and our main characters arecommitted to finding Vecna, no matter
the cost. I'm Andrea.
I mean, what else are theygonna do? They're fucking stuck in
one spot. They're finding themno matter the cost. They can get

(00:22):
the fuck out of there. And I'mPaul, and for those of you who are
new here, we're cousins wholove breaking down fantasy and sci
fi worlds that capture ourhearts and our collective anxiety.
And none of them do that morethan Stranger Things, which always
delivers on both. And in thesefirst two chapters of the final season,
the core cast is scattered,traumatized and restless. The military

(00:46):
is everywhere. The Upside downis literally beneath Hawkins. And
the kids who once playedDungeons and Dragons together are
now navigating grief, guilt,and the creeping dread that Vecna
is still out there somewhere.
Chapters one and two, come,come out swinging. Will begins to
grapple with his connection tothe hive mind. Holly Wheeler vanishes.

(01:09):
Never saw that before. Neverhad a vanishing of any child before.
Oh, wait, yes, we did. Thatwas the very first.
2 Pickney wen missing.Barbara was still a child. Right?
And also, Obviously, will and11 is on a mission. In this episode,
we are discussing chapters oneand two of the final season. But

(01:31):
spoiler warning for all fourof the previous seasons of Stranger
Things. If you haven't watchedthrough chapter two yet, go back.
Watch it. Like, why are you here?
Yeah, everybody's come backafterwards, all the kids are doing
it. And you know what no oneelse are doing. Kin Folklore will
also have adult content, butas Rockin Robin says, why would you

(01:53):
want anything else? So ifyou're here for yet another date
that fails, broken promisesdon't happen at Enzo's. Due to mortal
peril and the fate of theworld hanging in the balance, steer
clear of those military accesscontrol zones, AKA the Max Z. Enjoy
that TV dinner. Curl on up tohowever you listen to your podcast.

(02:16):
And if you're listening, whichI hope you are, because this pod
is for you, Kinfolk. Let's go.
Let's talk about chapter one,the crawl. So the season opens with
a flashback to 1983 inside theUpside down, revealing that Vecna

(02:37):
was always behind Will'sdisappearance from the very beginning
and had plans for him farbeyond simple possession. What those
plans are, we're still not clear.
You and me are going to dowhat wonderful things together. You're
a mean one, Mr. Grinch. Oh, God.

(03:01):
They obviously saw the Grinchmemes and decided to make some changes
because someone's been to thegym. We're not talking about that
episode quite yet, butsomeone's been working out.
Yeah.
So back in 1987. Hawkins isnow under full military occupation.

(03:21):
Rockin Robin has become theunofficial voice of the town, broadcasting
daily from wsq. The Squawk. Wow.
All right, go ahead, Rocket Robin.
While the older teens plan thecrawls, which is their covert system

(03:41):
for sneaking Hopper into theUpside down beneath the military
caravans. Over at the Wheelerhouse, the buyers are living on top
of the Wheelers, and thetension is extremely high. 11 is
training for her rematchagainst Vecna, this time with Hopper's

(04:03):
watchful and carefuloversight. Dustin at school stirs
up some trouble with Jason.Rest in pieces, our original crew
of bullies, and pays for itwhen Andy and his goons jump him
at Eddie's grade after school.

(04:24):
I'm mad we even have to knowAndy's name.
I know. I didn't know Andy'sname. I'm a little frustrated that
at all we now know Andy'sname. I mean, I'm sure it's been
said before, but yeah, I.Whatever. Bring back Jason. Jason
was like a formidable foe until.
The Upside down opened up andripped him in half. He was. He was

(04:46):
a formidable foe for sure.And. And I mean, because Andy got
beat up by Erica. Let's keepit. Let's keep it a buck. This is
not a good look for Dustin.Andy knew to bring reinforcements
because him.
Okay, there were. It was like 4v1.
There was five. They jumpedhim because this. They jumped him.
Which is not a good look. Butif it was one on one, I think he

(05:07):
takes Andy. I think he takes Andy.
I mean, Dustin put up a goodfight. He did. No.
100%. 110%.
So after school as well, Lucasand Will are visiting Max, who is
still in a coma at thehospital. And Will accidentally sees
Robin and Vicki sharing aprivate moment, which is entirely,

(05:29):
entirely inappropriate becauseVicki is at work taking care of sick
people and they.
Just wheeled out a dead body.She makes a joke about stealing from
the dead person. Oh, my gosh. Wild.
Wild. That night, Hopper'scrawl goes entirely sideways when
a Demogorgordon tears throughthe convoy, trapping him in the Upside

(05:51):
Down. Will, meanwhile,experiences a new kind of vision,
one from the Demogorgon'spoint of view, something we haven't
seen before. And in theepisode's final moments, a Demogorgordon
slips into the Wheeler homeand rips a portal into Holly's bedroom.

(06:12):
And to kick off episode two,or chapter two, the Demogorgon brutally
attacks Karen and Ted afterHolly somehow is like really props
to Holly. She holds onto herbed, she runs out of the room, gets
into the bathroom, convincesher mom only because she sees the
blood on the back of her head,and. They fight for their lives.

(06:37):
Karen and Ted are trying toprotect Holly, and it basically drags
Holly up into the Upside downbecause they fail. But did not die
so good. Eleven chases thecreature's trail and reunites with
Hopper, and together, theyfollow the blood deeper through the

(06:58):
Upside down until they reachsomething entirely new. So there's
an enormous organic wall thateven 11 can't break through. Hopper's
knife, Rambo knife definitelycan't break through, even though
he tries. And whatever is onthe other side is beyond her psychic

(07:19):
reach. Which is exactly whyshe believes Vecna must be in there.
Back in Hawkins, Nancy andMike finally confront the consequences
of keeping their parents inthe dark. While trying to piece together
also Holly's last few days,they realized that her imaginary
friend, Mr. Whatsit, wasn'timaginary at all. Holly had been

(07:41):
speaking to someone that wasactually real and people just couldn't
see. And that someone knewthat monsters were coming for Holly.
Across town, Joyce triesdesperately to keep Will safe by
refusing to let him tap backinto the hive mind. He and Robin
sneak away anyway to test hispsychic connection, and what he discovers

(08:03):
reframes everything. Willwasn't seen through the Demogorgon
earlier. He was seen throughVecna himself, as he saw the vision
of him spinning around in thewoods when they were talking about
the crawl with his friends.Their investigation leads to the
truth about Mr. Whatsit. He isHenry Krill in his human form, manipulating

(08:24):
Holly with soft words andpromises. And Holly isn't just lost
in the Upside Down. She'sbeing kept in Henry Krill's childhood
home, exactly where Vecnawants her. Okay. Take a second here.
And I'm gonna just say thatbecause Karen spilled the liquor

(08:50):
for us before she wrecked the Demogorgon.
No, no, no, no. There was no.There was no liquor there, though.
No, she just smashed it andthat was it.
Because she finished thebottle earlier in the episode. Karen
Wheeler was turned all the wayup, which is why I'm quite impressed.
Yeah, because her facultiesseem to have been there, but she.

(09:12):
She. She had put the bottletwo lips. That bottle was empty.
Even Ted was trying to trollit about. What? What are you on two
already? She's like, I'm onthe bottle, bro. Like, she was fine,
but she smashes the bottle.And due to that smashing of the bottle,
we will not be pouring out anyliquor for them as of yet. They're
just hospitalized. But we willpour one out for Jake the Snake.

(09:36):
Rest in peace, Jake.
Rest in peace, Jake. Rest inpeace. He was terrorized. Andy in
the hallway, a true icon. Lethim know that hellfire still lives.
And then, of course, themilitary convoy team that took all
the wrecks. Yo, this is. Thisis a pattern. These guys just. There's,

(09:57):
like, carnage on, like, labworkers, military personnel. People
just, like, die in mass thatare in the. These. These categories.
It's crazy. So let's pour oneout for both Jake the Snake and the
military convoy team. Thisgoes out to all our fallen homies.
Yo.

(10:24):
Don't let the chin get likethat, y'. All. I'm more upset about
the snake. He didn't do anything.
I mean, he did nothing. Heliterally did nothing.
It wasn't his fault. Dustinput him in somebody's locker. That's
not. That's not.
Dustin is responsible for themurder of two pets on this show.
Rest in peace, Muse. Rest inpeace, Muse.
Muse. And Muse, too. Jake theSnake. So let's talk about it. Let's.

(10:49):
Let's talk about. First ofall, I. I had a blast. We did something
that was great. We figured outa way to, like, group watch and stream
and. And watch it alltogether, which was absolutely amazing.
But what did you. What did youthink of this? Like, kicking off
of some of the noteworthystuff? Like, what are some of your
thoughts?
So I think we can talk nowpretty openly about that first five

(11:11):
minutes. And I got questions.
Okay.
I got questions. So, first ofall. I think it was great to see
Will fighting back. I thinkthe. Very much this show has given
an impression that Will isweak and does not fight back and

(11:33):
is not always the most usefulmember of the team. And so to see
him shooting a demogorgon inthe face, I was proud.
Casting Fireball, right? Like, amazing.
I was proud. I was very proud.He fought for his life, and. And
we know that this is momentsafter Elle contacted him and told

(11:54):
him to stay where he was andthat his mom was coming for him,
so he had every reason tofight. So. Love seeing that. Love
seeing that. What really bugsme about this first five minutes,
though, is. He clearly sees Vecna.

(12:17):
You think he does. We talkedabout this a lot, that his eyes were
kind of, like, rolled back inhis head, so I wasn't sure that he
was able to actually see him,but then when he, you know, later
in another episode has hiseyes rolled back, he's able to see.
So, like, what do you think?You think he's really seeing Vecna?
I think he's see. He's lookingat something. It. It bugs me a little

(12:39):
bit. I've watched it multipletimes and I'm like, so did. We'll
see vectors and he know aboutVecna the whole time. And maybe there.
He's not intended to, but itbegs the question. He certainly can
hear and someone's talking tohim. So I'm curious about why we

(13:00):
never.
Yeah, he definitely can hearwhat's going on. For sure. He's definitely
awake enough to do that. And Ithink, like, there's a lot of things
that he. He reveals. Right.Like in this. Throughout this run
of episodes, this first four,the volume one, that we're like,
well, how come we didn't knowsome of this stuff earlier? And we'll
talk about it throughout thisepisode and next episode. But it's

(13:22):
kind of interesting that he's.He's finding out new things about
how he experiences being partof the hive mind, but he's also withheld,
I feel like, certaininformation that is pertinent to
their missions, and it'sfascinating that that's happened.
Yeah. I have questions aboutthis new experience that he's having,

(13:44):
which is clearly new. Right.We've never seen will see through
a Demogorgon's eyes before, sothis is new. I have questions about
why it's happening now and isit intentional? So I think that that's
something that we're going toneed to learn very quickly in Volume

(14:06):
two.
Yeah, I mean, like, it's veryclear to me in the first scene that
he was controlling theDemogorgon to make sure that Hop
didn't get hurt. It did notfeel like they were random killings
because he goes right overwhere Hop is and goes to the driver,
pulls the driver out and. Andas the last person that he kills.

(14:29):
And he could have easily keptgoing and killed Hop. Right. So it's
very clear that I don't.
I don't read that scene thesame way. I don't think the Demogorgon
knew that Hopper was there. Idon't think we need to get stuck
on this. I just didn't readthe scene the same way.
Yeah. Okay, let's talk about,like, the training montage. Really.
I, like, I want to go first ofall, the outfit is phenomenal. What'd

(14:53):
you think of the montage.
I thought it was good. I saw.I think I sent you that thread that
compared it to Siri from theWitcher. Which I was like. I was
like, yeah, that tracks. That tracks.
She's treated.
Her dad and her. Her stepmomwatching. It's. That tracks. I think

(15:17):
that. I think it's superhelpful because I think we saw at
the end of season four thatElle had some new powers, but she
hadn't finished her trainingat the Nina project, and Brenner
told her she wasn't ready toface Vecna and she lost. Brenner
was right. So I think what'sgood about this is that we see that

(15:40):
Elle is trying new things.She's doing those. These jumps now,
so she can. I mean, Brennersaid she'll need to fly.
She's. Yeah.
Or was that Owens?
No, that was Brenner.
That was Brenner. So she isn'texactly flying, but she's coming
close. She is. Her reflexesare good. She's paying attention.

(16:03):
She's thinking strategically,too. I can do this. And it cuts off
this a second here. If I dothis, it will cut off a second there,
and I'll get under time. I. Ihave to say, even though I think
that both Hopper and Joyce areway too overprotective of Will and
El in this, in these twoepisodes, I do think that Hopper
is right. She's too eager toget back in the fight.

(16:26):
Right, Agreed.
I think that when you're thateager to get back in the way that
she's fighting with Hopperabout going on the crawl, that's
dangerous. Like, that canbecome really dangerous because your
enemy can explain will youget. But I. I like the training montage.
I thought it was great.
Yeah, me too. Me too. I. And Ilove. I love. I love the tie in about
the Witcher, because it's likeJoyce. And it instantly put me in,

(16:49):
like, the mind when you showme that about Geralt and Yen and
just, like, watching Siri andlooking over. So I. I get that. I
also think it's fascinatingthat speaking to her eagerness getting
in the fight is that she'slike, we're talking about fractions
of a second, seconds of like,what he told. Like, you have to do
it in this amount of time, andshe actually makes the time. So it

(17:09):
kind of indicates to us thatshe's getting closer to being ready.
I don't know how they'regauging that timeframe that makes
her ready, but I do. I doThink it's fascinating that, that
she's getting closer and thathe's, and he's, you know, I land
in the same place as you. Alittle bit of caution here to keep
her from rushing intosomething that could ultimately,

(17:31):
you know, not work out. We'veseen it not work out. Right. So he's,
he's, he's, he's. And he's gotsome, he doesn't say. He has context.
I hope that they talk aboutthat, like, you know, as well, but
we are aware and like wetalked about previous, that there's
probably some context betweentheir relationship that he, he knows
more about Vecna than whathe's letting on, at least at this

(17:52):
point. So I hope that thatcomes up too in the, in the next
run of episodes. Um, I, I, Ireally love the Holly stuff. I want
to get into this because. Ithink that. The, I think that the
conversation with her and Mikewas great. But before we get to that,

(18:12):
this tie in of her spinningaround on the wheel and Will kind
of seeing, like, the spinningin the air and this, like, new kind
of, like, connection. I, Iguess I'm wondering. What is it that,
like, I guess I kind of, Iguess I want to ask you, like, what

(18:33):
did you think about the waythat they're kind of, like, setting
up this reveal and Holly'spart in all of this and the Mr. Whatsit
stuff? And, like, what did youthink about all of that? Like, how,
what were your feelings aboutthat, knowing that it's connected
to, like, Wrinkle in Time andall that.

(18:53):
I like bringing Holly moreinto the story. Yeah, I think that
was great. I think it gives usa really good moment with her and
Will. I mean, sorry, her andMike, which, you know, Mike is a
very irritating charactersometimes, but I think that he does
thrive in giving peoplemotivation to believe in themselves.

(19:15):
He does that here with, withHollywood. I really like the way
that he had already beenincorporating her into his D and
D stuff. He just hadn't toldher yet, which just shows sort of,
like, how much Mike has beenthinking about his sister, even though
he never really talks abouther on the show. I don't really like

(19:37):
the Mr. Whatsit stuff. I thinkthat it was. Staged as it was going
to be a reveal. The audiencewas way ahead of the characters in
the story, and that feltclunky and, like, I don't want to
be the naysayer about theshow. I loved these four episodes.
I had a great time watchingthem. But that the fact that. Especially

(20:03):
on my second watch, the Mr.What's it reveal was so. Seemed silly
to me. I was like, why arethey waking up, Karen? Like, like,
we're. We're the audience, andwe have as much information as them.
In some cases, we have moreinformation than they do. And that's.
That's something the show hasalways done, because if you have

(20:24):
your main character split overcontinents, which in season four,
your audience is going to knowmore than them all the time, right?
But the notion that, like,they wouldn't have figured out that
Vecna, who can make himselfappear to people, might be appearing

(20:44):
as Holly, Like. Like, who elsecould it have been?
It's so insane. They do. I.I've seen a bunch of creators talk
about this. You and I havetalked about this. It's like, you
have seen interdimensionalbeings. You have seen people go into
other people's minds. You'refriends with a girl who has telekinetic
powers. There's, like,literally a person who is in a coma

(21:07):
right now because she wasbrought back to life after dying.
And y' all are like, oh, shejust has an imaginary friend. She
must be imagining this one.Nobody stopped and was like, wait,
hold on. Imaginary friend.Like, something might be happening
here.
And then the absolutegaslighting that Mike Wheeler does
to his little sister sent meup the wall.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, the monsters might becoming. The monsters might. There's

(21:31):
no monsters in Hawkins. Mike.Why are you lying to this little
girl? She calls him on it,though, in the Great Divide.
It is a Great Divide eggmoment. She calls him. She calls
him out. She says. She says, Idon't believe you. Like, she literally
tells him, I don't believe youanyway. It's definitely giving. It's

(21:51):
definitely giving. Aang in theGreat Divide. Like, let me just lie
to you to your face.
I was cracking up because Iwas like, this is just like, at the
end of the Great Divide, whenAang is like, here's a story about
how I knew both of thesepeople. And it's like, no, no, Avatar.
We don't believe you. Anyway,Mike. So I. And. And I like that.

(22:15):
This comes back later in thesecond episode where Nancy is like,
we could have prevented all ofthis. We knew what was going on.
And we didn't share that withour parents. We didn't share it with
Holly. We didn't adequatelyprepare them. We didn't try to get
them out of Hawkins. I thinkthat's legitimate. I think Lucas
also makes. In thatconversation. I think Lucas also

(22:37):
makes legitimate points thatVecna isn't really about. Like, he's
not really on a revenge tourhere. Like, he has a purpose for
everything. That said, I dothink that maybe Karen and Ted would
have had a better chance ifthey knew that Demogorgons were a
thing.
100% they would.

(22:59):
Let's just say Karen and Teddid better than I would have against.
If I saw Demogorgon for thefirst time, I probably would have
died. There's no way. There'sno way Karen and Ted, they held their
own. I wasn't expecting itfrom Ted. I thought he was going
to go out right away. But, youknow, after he said his little heavens,

(23:20):
heavens to Betsy moment, he.He got ready. He. He used the only
weapon he had.
The golf club. Yeah, it was agolf club. I just don't know how.
How did. How does Nancy havefirearms? But all he had was a golf
club. Like, Nancy has legitfirearms. I'm sure he had firearms
somewhere. Like, I was one ofhim. To like, get something like
a golf club and a bottle feltlike, man, there had to be something

(23:44):
else in that house. But.
But they don't know about thatstuff. I mean, Nancy told us she
keeps it hidden. So it's likethe whole. I. I like that they had
to confront that because ithas been frustrating how close to
the action the Wheeler parentshave always been, but they've never.
They've been kept in the dark.I also think that the show is doing

(24:05):
a good job of like,referencing some of the. The like,
meta commentary about it. Likethe fight they had before Holly got
taken where she's like, do youeven know how old Holly is? Nobody
does. Don't be upset withyourself, Ted. Nobody knows how old
Holly is.
He's age 6 years and 18months. How did this happen? Oh,

(24:27):
man, it's so funny.
Nobody knows how old Holly is.Holly is supposed to be between 9
and 10 years old. Yeah, themath is not math.
No, no. Oh, my gosh. It's sofunny. It was funny. It was hilarious.
Because maybe Nancy didn'teven know when she was like, I have
a six year old at my house.Maybe she wasn't even six at that
point.
I know. Maybe she was seven oreight. I mean, at this point, nobody

(24:51):
knows how old Holly is.
Oh my gosh. It's so. Yeah, itwas. It was funny. And she loves.
She loves a bubble bath. Sheloves a bubble bath. I'm going to
give. She's, you know, like alittle wine and a bubble bath. Shout
out to her.
She's like, you know, I hadanother gripe earlier in the episode,
which was that Joyce doesn'thelp at all.

(25:14):
Yeah.
With breakfast, with cleanup,with nothing. Joyce. You weren't
even going to a job. You weregoing to help Hopper. They could
have waited, right? They couldhave waited.
And what was Joyce doing? Whatwas Joyce doing that she needed to
be there for the training?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.Just hanging out.

(25:37):
Oh, my goodness. She couldhave helped. She could have helped.
I just think that she'sobligated to help as the adult.
Yeah.
And you're putting up my twokids. Right. I should be helping.
Like, on occasion, the buyershould be making breakfast for the
Wheelers. Like, it just feltvery much like. Karen is not just.

(25:59):
Like, responsible for herfamily now and taking care of them.
She's also responsible for thebuyers. And I'm just like, ah, that's
not cool, Ted.
With another crazy one liner.What do you want me to do? Put them
to the street? Is that an option?
Listen, is that wrong, though?Would you want Joyce, Jonathan and

(26:23):
Will in your house for 18months? I mean, I guess it's been
16 months, but something like that.
What are they gonna do,though? Like, it's kind of crazy.
Like, where would they go?Like, I guess they could have found.
She could have. She could havefound a job, I guess, while she was
there and got back to herroots and done the whole thing. Yeah.
You're telling me there's no.Not a single vacant apartment or

(26:44):
house in all of Hawkins, eventhough surely some people left before
the quarantine.
And you're telling me thatNancy and Jonathan are respecting
those boundaries of downstairs?
Oh, no way. Absolutely not.Absolutely not. As soon as. As soon
as Karen goes to bed, we knowwhat's going down.

(27:04):
Oh, my gosh.
We know what's going down. Assoon as. As soon as Karen goes to
bed, we know what's going down.
So back in the story here, Ithink something that emerges, speaking
of Nancy is her as, once againa leader. And it looks like her and

(27:26):
Mike are teaming up a lot. Asthe Wheeler siblings have been leaders
of their separate groups.They're kind of like, you know, and
she really led the party,truthfully, while. While Mike was
off on his adventures withArgyle and Will and Jonathan. But
I think, like, it's kind ofinteresting to see them teaming up

(27:47):
and to see Nancy as like, kindof the operational commander of the
crawl. Like, I. I love thisstuff. I love the way that they're
finally, as you've asked formany times, attempting at least to
Workshop some of these ideasand have a plan. What was your takeaway?
So it seems like. And I can'tbe 100% sure, but it seems like Nancy

(28:09):
also might be the manager ofthe radio station. And that all four.
All four teens work there,which is kind of incredible. That's,
like, a good cover for aplanning operations base. Right.
I really like that her. Herand Mike were on the same page, because

(28:30):
the same plan Nancy goesthrough with the older teens, Mike
then goes through with theparty. I think that both Mike and
Nancy are natural leaders, andit's great to see everyone kind of
defer to them. But also, Ithink it's great when they. When
Robin and Steve kind of pushback and are like, we keep doing

(28:52):
this, and it's not working.We've done this more than 30 times,
and it's not getting usanywhere, because I don't. I think
Steve's saying, maybe Vecna isdead, as is, like, kind of crazy.
Like, I was like, steve,Steve, I know you weren't present
when. When Will was grabbingthe back of his neck at the end of

(29:14):
season four, but I wascertainly there, and.
Vex is not dead. Yeah.
But I. I really also like thatMike takes up for his sister. I don't
think. I think it's later inthe episode when he's like, no, this
is serious. Like, what. Whatshe saw is real. And Jonathan also
takes her seriously as well.So I. I love seeing Nancy in her

(29:40):
full girl boss. Moment. Like,I. I think that this is, like, the
role that Nancy has alwaysbeen destined for. She's always kind
of played the investigatorrole, but she's. She's very good
at being a. A woman of action.She's not the type of person who.

(30:00):
She gathers her informationand then she takes action on it.
You know, if it were up toMurray, they would be doing recognizance
for years before taking anyaction. But I like that. And I also
think it's appropriate thatthe older teens are essentially.
They're not teens anymore.They're adults now, and they're being
treated as such. I think thatthat's great. They're. They're taking

(30:22):
on kind of. Equal roles toJoyce and Hopper, and I. I. It feels
like, for the most part,Hopper is giving them that respect.
Joyce, I think, could takesome notes, but I thought it was.
I. I thought going. And also,I think it's important to tell the

(30:43):
audience exactly what the planis, and I love that they've been
doing that so well in all ofthe first four episodes. Episodes,
like, they've walked usthrough every plan so that we know
what to expect, and we know wecan tell immediately when it's going
wrong. Like, we knew Hopper'splan was. Was off the rails almost
immediately.

(31:04):
I didn't understand the planfrom the beginning of him going down
there and doing what he. I wasjust like, this is what y' all have
been doing 36 times. This hasbeen successful 36 times. You guys
have. You guys are count.Should be counting yourself lucky.
This is insanity. Like, whatare you hoping to find?
What's disturbing. What'sdisturbing to me is sending just
Hopper down there to find. Totry to find Vecna. Hopper hasn't

(31:29):
met Vecna in this form. Maybewouldn't even know what he's looking
for necessarily. Like, itseems like it makes more sense to
send Steve, Robin, or Nancy,who have looked this demon in the
face. Yeah. So I don't reallyget why Hopper's the one, but I understand

(31:50):
that Hopper has that kind of,like. No, I'm the first man in energy.
He also has military training.He also was a cop, so I get that
piece of it. But. I don'tknow. Like, I have a lot of questions
about what the. What the planwas beyond finding Vecna. Like, so
Hopper sees Vecna in theUpside Down.

(32:13):
What then?
Yeah, what. What was the nextstep of this plan was Then. Then
you plan another crawl so thatElle can sneak up on him. And also,
you know that Vecna's not inthe Upside down because Elle can
search the whole Upside downfrom the Void.
Right. Especially since shedoes it when she first walks into

(32:34):
the Upside down, searching forHolly. Like, she's, like, searching
in the Void right when shewalks in. And especially since Hopper
doesn't chew gum, and we knowthat snipers chew gum. Okay. Like,
so. So I don't know what hewas doing.
Lucas has some really solidlines, which I'm glad they gave Lucas

(32:55):
stuff to do. Really solidstuff. Because his hair in it, but.
Oh, God, the wig on LucasDruff this season. Jeez. Um, Yeah,
I think Lucas had a lot ofreally solid things. I think Lucas's
ability to connect the dates,to be able to say that, oh, wait,

(33:16):
I've. You know, we've seenthis before, and it's around the
same time. It's November 3rd,and we're three days away from when
Will went missing. Of whatstarted this. All I think was. Was
super important to bring kindof like, Nancy and Mike were normally
the ones who can spot thatkind of thing, but are now off their
center because it's their momand their dad and their sister. Like,

(33:39):
he was able to, like, say,okay, no, let me ground you two,
and kind of bring them backeven, you know, even to some extent,
him lobbying. Max, even in acoma, knowing that, you know, maybe
she can hear, maybe she can't,but that he really thinks that the
war. He's like, like you said,I think, like, the last battle started

(34:00):
tonight, and we're going toneed the whole party. Like, we're
going to need everybody. And Ithink, like, him seeing and connecting
these dots is really a biggrowth. I mean, he has always kind
of been the one to go off.Like, in season one, he was like,
y' all are doing it wrong. I'mgoing off on my own. I don't trust
anything. Then he kind ofstill was kind of in that phase of,

(34:24):
like, at some point in seasonfour, where he was like, I need to
fit in. I'm tired of beingthis person. He kind of was always
kind of lone wolfing it andthen coming back to the group. I
think he feels firmly plantedin. This is a team effort, and we're
going to need everyone in away that I don't know that we've
seen. Always seen Lucas, eventhough he eventually ended up there
in every season, there wereparts of him that felt like, I have

(34:47):
the answer, you don't. And Ithink he's again, bringing some answers,
but grounding people androunding the crew up to, like, understand
what he's seen. But before hejust goes off and does something
on his own, which I think is.Is cool. I think it's good to see,
you.
Know, so, yeah, and I. I thinkwe should. I think that. That the
date. I also think that whenLucas brings up the date, it's November

(35:09):
3rd. That really grounds theaudience in a couple of things. One
is we're coming up on thefourth anniversary of Will's disappearance.
That's significant. Which isalso crazy to me that it's been nine
years for the audience, butit's only been four for them in story.

(35:31):
Yeah, but also that payattention to dates. You know, it
was. It's sort of reminderthat dates matter in this story and
that date will becomeimportant later in another episode.
And so I think it was a reallykeen observation by him, which I
honestly don't think theothers would have remembered. Like,

(35:52):
they're so into. Everyone isso mission driven. Right. Everybody
is really like, we have tofind Vecna. We have to find Vecna.
Elle obviously has faced offwith him. Nancy had that horrible
vision. Everyone is so focusedon their end game that they're, they,
they're missing stuff. They'remissing stuff like Holly's imaginary

(36:16):
friend. They're missing the,you know, the significance of the
date. And that significance ofthe date might be the re. One of
reasons that the Demogorgonsand VCNA are ramping up. Right. So
I think that it's an importantmoment because I also wondered, I
had the real moment of like,oh my goodness, is this whole season

(36:36):
going to take place over threeor four days? And I think that's
possible. I think that thisshow could land on November 7, 1987,
which is crazy. Crazy that,that we could get to the point of
like. This whole season wrapsup in a matter of days because the

(36:58):
first few episodes only covertwo days.
Yeah. And I saw somethingearlier, I don't remember the creator's
name. There's some other datesthat came that come into this based
on the references of in thestory as well. Like apparently, and
I may be getting this wrong,I'm going to double check it. Back
to the future, the date thatwhen, when Robin and, and, and will

(37:25):
go on this mission. She callsout, the flux capacitor is going
down and the flux capacitor isfrom, obviously from Back to the
Future. And apparently thatdate that they went back in the time
back to the future wasNovember 5th. So it's like all of
those. So they're November3rd. Then I think it's like November
4th or November 5th. Sothere's like these dates that are
kind of like in story, inuniverse and out of universe that

(37:49):
are all happening in the samerun of time. Like the 6th, the 3rd,
the 4th, the 5th, the 6th.That I think it could be interesting
to see how they play with timeand how they. We've been talking
about there might be some timestuff this whole time. And I think
that we're going to see someof that as this plays out with the
dates in November. And I don'tthink that Flex, I, I, he made a

(38:09):
compelling argument about theFlex capacitor not being an accident
to be mentioned when they gooff and make that discovery. And
Robin, and Robin continuouslyis one of the people who mentions
Back to the Future orunderstands Back to the Future. So
I wonder how that's going toplay out. I don't know. I mean, we
don't know. It may just becoincidence, but I.
Do think that time, I don'tthink anything's a coincidence. If

(38:31):
that's true, I think that'ssignificant. But I don't believe
in coincidences. In thisstory, especially the way that this
first volume was written,there are all kinds of callbacks
to earlier seasons. Most ofthem are in episodes three and four.
So we'll talk about that inour next episode. But I don't believe

(38:54):
in coincidences. So if that'strue, I absolutely think it is significant.
Yeah, I'm trying to figure outthe date, the actual date on it,
but whether it was the fifthor the fourth. But it is. It is one
of those dates that I believehe said before. Before. In between
when Will goes missing and thedate that we're at in the hospital,

(39:17):
it's either the fourth or thefifth. So let's see.
The fifth would make sense. Soif it is the fifth. That would make.
I mean, that. That wouldprobably line up with episode five,
right? Like, which is. I thinkthat's the one that's called the
Bridge.
The Bridge. That's exactly what.

(39:38):
Actually, that's exactly whathe said. So I think that we. We'll
talk more about, like, whatthe Bridge could mean when we talk
about chapter three inparticular. But I think that that
creator could be onto something.
Yeah, I agree. I agree. When Isaw it, I was like, wow, this is

(39:59):
really, really fascinatingstuff. So we'll see.
Can we talk about Steve and Jonathan?
You mean how Nancy brings outtheir inner Neanderthal and they
chase. They. They cannotcontrol it. Like, there's something
like. Like both of them arejust wilding out, wild for the night.
All right, so it starts with,like, the triathlon of all triathlons

(40:19):
up Radio tower, where eitherone of them could have died. Like,
died just being ridiculous.
And then the whole thing is soannoying. Like, I. I find if I were
Nancy, I would. I wouldaddress it straight on. Cut it out.
The whole thing is soirritating. I. It was a funny scene,

(40:41):
don't get me wrong. Like, Iappreciated it as a viewer, but.
But you can just see how muchit's wearing on Nancy. And the fact
that neither of them isrecognizing how annoying it is to
her is alarming. But this, thecrash out in the. In the van. It
was. It was so good becausethey both said to the other person

(41:07):
what they. What actually theyneed to hear Steve. Steve is not
wrong that Jonathan doesn'talways fully see Nancy or respond
to Nancy's needs. That's fine.But also, Steve is wrong that Nancy
would prefer them to bringflowers to the hospital than stay
on Mission. Steve has triedthis before with Nancy. When? In

(41:29):
season one, when she was like,I want to look for Barb. And he was
like, oh, maybe we should goto the movies and just pretend that
nothing's happening. So he'snot right about Nancy. Nancy does
prefer to stay on mission. Imean, she's at the hospital executing
a mission. Like. Like shedoesn't want flowers. Right.
She.
Her brothers with her. Lucasis there. Like, I don't. You know,

(41:53):
I don't think that she wouldwant them to. To stop. Stop looking
for Hopper.
And it goes against. It goesagainst Steve's own advice to Dustin.
You know, when they're walkingon the tracks and he tells them and
they're in search of, like,dart. And he's like, dustin's all

(42:16):
broke up about maybe losingout on the opportunity to get with
Max because she's, like, notinto him or whatever. He goes, you
know what? You gotta just actlike you don't care. Like, you know,
like. Act like you're just,like, you know, like, ambivalent
to the whole thing. And he'sout here doing grand gestures all
the time. And I'm not sayingthat his other approach was right.

(42:39):
I'm just saying it goescompletely opposite to what he's
been doing. And Jonathan, Ithink, is doing exactly what Steve
told Dustin to do, which iskind of like, I'm just playing it
cool and just, like, kind ofmoving the way that I normally move
through the world, which Idon't think is exactly right is the
right tone either. For what?
No, they're both. They're both wrong.

(43:00):
Right, Exactly.
But they're wrong aboutdifferent pieces. And Steve also
needed to. The advice that hegives to Jonathan about Nancy. Steve
could take it about Dustin.
Agreed.
We haven't talked about Dustinand Steve, but they are not in a
good place.

(43:21):
Yeah.
And Dustin's being an. I wantto be perfectly clear. Dustin's being
an. Like, he is being mean toSteve at points where there's no
reason to be mean to Steve.He's using every opportunity to call
Steve an idiot. But Steve isresponding in anger, and he's not

(43:42):
seeing how hurt his friend is,how much pain Dustin is experiencing,
which is why he's behavingthat way. And also, there's a little
bit of, like, you're callingDustin. When you need him, when you
need help. Right. Not like. Itreally struck me that when things

(44:07):
were going bad at the radio,he calls Dustin, and Dustin's like,
you guys have to figure this out.
Like, I'm I'm on the way toschool. I'm in school. Like, what?
Like, you read. Like, figureit out, read the manual. But then
when Dustin is all beaten up,his friends Lucas and Mike and Will
are all like, oh, my gosh, isyour nose broken? Like, there? And

(44:30):
Steve is just annoyed. Like,you. He's like, you know, you. Like,
you miss the crawl. And so Ithink that he could be making his
own. He could be taking hisown advice about showing up for people
when they're struggling.
I agree. No, I 100% agree. Ithink he's. He's putting. Yeah, he's
placing. He's putting. He'simplementing the advice in the wrong.

(44:53):
To the wrong person at thewrong time, 100%. And I think. I
think you're. I think, like, Ireally do see what's going on with
Dustin. He's hurting, youknow, And I. And I think he's hurting
and grieving what he saw. Imean, imagine knowing. Not only carrying
the burden of losing a friend,not only carrying the burden of knowing

(45:16):
that some other world existsthat's impacting everything around
you, that's changed the wholeface of your town and has also, I
mean, we just say hurting you,killing his friend, but also hurt
and almost killed Max. Soanother one of his friend. You lost
a lot, right?
And. And what's going on withSusie and.
And I don't think. I think. Imean, probably, like, if he's in

(45:38):
this space, I'm sure he's notreally checking in over a radio to
try to catch up with Susan.You know what I mean? And so that
part of his life has changed.You know, he's had to cover up quite
a bit, and he's carrying allof that. And then to also walk up
to a town where people look atthe person who. Who you know was

(46:01):
a hero as a villain. But notonly that, to carry with you the
last words he said to whichhis friends make light of at the
table because they don'tunderstand that those were the last
words that were said to him.None of them were there even in the
Upside down when that washappening. Lucas was on the other
side, or right side up,watching what was happening with

(46:22):
Max and fighting. And theother two weren't even in Hawkins
yet. And Eddie explicitlysaid, I need you to go round up the
other lost sheep to be the onewho does that. So he's not wearing
that hellfire shirt just to bean asshole, although it could give
off that vibe to everyonearound him. He's also wearing it
because he made a promise indeath to his friend that I'm going

(46:44):
to continue the work that youdid of making sure that people that,
that are not in the in crowd,not conforming, will have a place
of shelter and safety. And hehasn't really figured that out yet.
He's still figuring out how todo it for himself and I think and
complete this mission. So it'sfascinating. I, I, we watched that
scene of him going in on thetrailer. We knew he wasn't going

(47:07):
to be in a good place. It washard to see how bad a place he was
in, to be completely honest.
Yeah. And like, I, I thinkthere's a couple things going on
with him. Like, I think forone, he doesn't necessarily want
to be close to Steve becauseSteve is inside this group and anybody
in this group can die and hecould lose another big brother. So

(47:31):
I think he's keeping him alittle at arm's length for that reason.
But I also think that, like,the difference between Steve and
Eddie was that Eddie saidthings to Dustin like, don't ever
change. Henderson. He acceptedhim for who he was fully. And Dustin
kind of throws that at hisfriends when they're like, hopper

(47:54):
told us to blend in. And he'slike, but we don't do that. Like,
we don't. We're not the kidswho blend in. We are the weirdos
we've always been the kids whodon't follow the rules. Who do what,
who are true to ourselves andtrue to our friends. And Steve is
not that guy. Like, he's justnot. And there's nothing wrong with
that. There's nothing wrong.Steve is talented in other ways.

(48:17):
Right. He is charming. Peoplelike him. He, he was popular for
a reason beyond just his goodlooks. Good looks doesn't always
just lead to popularity. But.I think Dustin is going through in
understanding what he reallylost with Eddie. And. He'S hurting

(48:39):
in a way that I just don'tthink that any of his friends really
get. But Steve gets least of all.
Yeah.
And I think it does seem likeSteve is being a little bit more
unkind. That said. Dustin'sbeing a real to him. Like, I haven't.
He's not being nearly as meanto the other kids as he is to Steve.

(49:01):
And I think that's in partbecause Steve can dish it out as
good as him. And can youimagine Dustin talking to Will like
that? No.
They would crumb. It wouldcrumb. They would crumble. None of
them can take what I mean,proof of that is how they're like,
having a hard time. They'reall talking to each other, but he's
losing his mind, man. Like,what are we gonna do? Like. Because
he's like, they can't. Andwhen he shows up and he's all, like,

(49:23):
in the seat, by the way, thatEddie used to occupy when he sits
there, they're all like, well,he's like, who's losing their mind?
Like, what's going on? Andthey're like. They're shook.
Andy's losing his mind.
Yeah. Yeah.
I will say this. That was dopeto see Lucas and Mike stand up to
Andy and his friends.

(49:44):
Oh, so good.
And Lucas being like, mylittle sister took you, bruh.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, But Ithink that could be part of the resentment.
You say he's not doing this toanybody else. That could be part
of the resentment that he'sfeeling towards Steve. Because sometimes
when you're in a fight, he'stelling him all these things he shouldn't
be doing and almost blaminghim. And while he says that to his

(50:06):
other group of friends, Ihaven't seen Steve this season stand
up for him or be like, when hesaw him bloodied, come into his bike,
be like, what the f. Like, whodid this to you? Let's go find him.
Like, what is. You know, like,none of that. And so his hero, in
some ways, he had two heroes,but this hero, I think Eddie was
ascending to be his hero.Eddie kind of kept him safe at school,

(50:27):
and he was becoming someone helooked up to and then ultimately
became the person who he waslike, that's my North Star. I think
Steve, when you see him, whenthey meet and they. That. That. That
faithful meeting where Dustinkind of picked him off the pile with
flowers and was like, hey,come on. You're good enough. Yeah.
He was like, I need someonewho can drive bas. Basically.

(50:49):
Yeah. I think, like, there's ascene where he's fighting off the.
He's about to fight off theDemogorgons, and he's going out there,
and Max goes, is he crazy?And. And Dustin looks out, like,
with, like, starry eyes andsays, no, he's awesome. And he's
like this little kid who seeshim, and he sees him on this pedestal,

(51:12):
and I think what's happened isthat. He'S been knocked off the pedestal
a little bit, that Eddie'skind of on this pedestal. And I almost
think that he sees him more ata peer setting. And the problem is
that Steve is not meeting himas a mentor. He's meeting him as
a peer with, like, shaming himand telling him what he's not doing
and why don't you do this? Andhe's arguing with him. Like, he would

(51:34):
argue with Jonathan where thequestion is, what's up, bro? Like,
what's happening with you?Like, tell me.
And also, I think Steve is. Ispreoccupied with trying to win back
Nancy, and Dustin needs him.
Right, Agreed.
Like, I don't think Stevereally sees anything outside of Nancy
when Nancy's in a. In theroom. And it's clear that Nancy's

(51:56):
in the room a lot. Right.They're. They're all working together
on this and they're allplaying a role. Although I do. This
is a change of subject for amoment. I do have a question about,
like, why Erica isn't includedand in the crawls and why she's.
She's out group. When Ericawas clutch at the end of season four,

(52:18):
they needed Erica. So I, youknow, I think that, that. Back to
Steven and Nancy, I think partof it is, like, Dustin really needs
his older brother and Steveis, like, very focused on this girl
who's with somebody else.
Right.
And it's just silly, but weshould. So we're running a little
long. So let's. Let's talkabout Robin and Will because I think

(52:41):
that is going to become, like,the core new duo.
Yeah, it's a. It's a good duo.
I love it. They're so goodabout linking up characters. Robin
is bringing out something inWill that we haven't seen. Will has
been so quiet for, like, two seasons.
Right.
Not to say that Will didn'thave a role in season four. He absolutely

(53:01):
did. We learned some newinformation about Will. He played
a role, but he's never quitecomes into focus. And like, having
Robin have his back gave himthe. In my opinion, gives him the
confidence to stand up toJoyce later and give. And give Joyce
the reading that she so dearlydeserved. She's so there. I, you

(53:24):
know, us, I stand 10 toes downfor Joyce Byers, but she was wrong.
Okay. She had two bad momentsin these episodes. Her first bad
moment was when she told. Willthat he couldn't go. He couldn't
go in the van to replaceDustin, but Jonathan could.

(53:45):
But you want to go. Yeah.
What? It's. It's too dangerous.
Yeah.
I'm sorry. It's too dangerousfor. For Will, who is damn near a
grown man now. But Jonathan,you can do it, right?
Yeah.
I wish my disposable child cando it.
Even Hopper calls her out onthat, like, I wish. I wish Will could

(54:08):
help, but you keep that kidwrapped in bubble wrap.
But again, I'm like. I'm like,Hopper. For real. For real. Because
you got the superhero overhere sitting in the radio station
like a. Like. Like, shedoesn't have superpowers.
Like, she doesn't havesuperpowers. She's sitting there
like. Like a stressed outfucking jets fan, watching her team.

(54:28):
Like. Like. Like, oh, my God,what's gonna happen? Like, she's
literally like a sports fan,and she is the one who could change
everything. It's crazy.
It's. It's insane. So bothHopper and Joyce are acting silly,
but then when she, like, getssnippy with Robin, Will is like,
all right, it's gone too far.It's gone too far.

(54:49):
Yelling at Robin. Like, Willisn't able to make his own choices.
Like, why are you yelling atRobin? Like, first of all, you don't
even know her that well, andshe's not your child. And why are
you not talking to Will? AndWill, like, checks her on that. I
think it was great when he waslike, yeah, I'm right here. Like,
and also, like, next time thatyou tell me to do something, I may
not do it because my planactually worked and yours didn't.

(55:09):
I was like, whoa, little bass.Got a little bass in his voice. Look
at that. We found out a lotabout Will in these first two episodes.
He ran from a Demogorgon, shotone in the face, jumped off of trees,
was failed by his jansport,all these things. Had a little bass
in his voice to his mom. Youknow what I mean? It was good. Will
is having a nice little run ofepisodes, to be honest.

(55:30):
Yeah, he's good. I. I'm glad.I'm glad that we're seeing very early.
Will is growing up, maturing,having. Having, like, more character
growth, because I just don'tfeel that we got that we got much
from him in. In seasons three,two and three, and even four. Like,

(55:55):
in two, he's possessed most ofit. So we're not seeing Will. Right.
And we'll. We're gonna talkextensively about season two when
we talk about season. Episode.Excuse me, we're gonna talk extensively
about season two when wediscuss chapter four. But Will is
a character. I never felt likeI got a good sense of him. Aside

(56:18):
from, like, we know that Willcan be a little bit more childish
than the others. We know thatWill is quieter. And I got a little
worried when going back to thebullying moment when Lucas and Mike
rolled up on Andy and hisfriends, and Will didn't say anything,
and I was like, oh, here we goagain. But I think what we're seeing

(56:40):
is that Will is buildingconfidence, and I really like that
him and Robin are linked upthis season. I think it's going to
be great. Robin is also reallygreat. Like, suddenly Maya Hawk became
kind of a main character, amain star of the show. Like so much
of this show is. Is aboutRobin or Robin is in major scenes.

(57:05):
And that. I think that'swonderful. I love Robin. I think
she's a. She's a real funhang. She is. She is funny. She's
also always been the personwho. Can make sense of things quickly.
She's observant. And so I likethat they paired her up with the.
The character who actuallyrequires you to look closely at to

(57:30):
understand what's fully goingon with him. So I think that's a
great matchup. I could usemore of them and less of Jonathan
and Steve.
Yeah, and I think we're goingto get that, and I think we're going
to get some Robin and Steveagain, because I think maybe she
can be one that can hopefullyhelp him to see where he's dropping
the ball with. With Dustin orvice versa. Or Dustin.

(57:50):
I think maybe Nancy will callhim in on that. Yeah, I. One of.
I think one of other Robin orNancy is going to have to rein him
in on that because like Stevesaid in season four, he sometimes,
like, he needs the call out sohe can adjust. You know, he needs.
He needs that moment wheresomebody says, hey, dude, you're.

(58:10):
You're doing this wrong.
Yeah, I agree. And. And Ithink that. I think that Robin is
observant in a way that a lotof the other characters aren't. And
we've known that since thebeginning. Like her. I mean, she
decoded freaking Russian whenwe first met her. Right. And she.
How many. How many childrenare you friends with? You know what

(58:31):
I mean? So she's observant ofa lot of things. And I think that
she is. Empathetic. I thinkthat she is, like you said, fun.
I think that because she feelsso deeply. That's why, as she's explained
herself, her words get aheadof her sometimes. Or maybe she runs

(58:53):
before she actually catches upto herself. But I think she was instrument.
I mean, think about it. Thinkabout the things that she's been
instrumental in decoding. Soshe is, I think, a main portion of
what's going to happen herewhen she's been part of decoding
the the Russian. Message to beable to help them to understand what
was happening in the mall.She's been part of partnering with

(59:16):
Nancy to fully understand howmusic could save Max in Inside with
Vecna and kind of like coming,like, unraveling the whole Krill,
Henry Krill, Victor Krill,Vecna connection. And she's been
instrumental in what we'lltalk about in 3 and 4 and kind of

(59:36):
giving Will some agency andalso in these episodes, some agency
and some belief in himself tosee that his ideas, he doesn't have
to wait and defer to his momor to his friends or to everybody
else. He actually can have asay in how this thing goes, which
ultimately plays out in a waythat will save them all. As we'll

(59:57):
talk about more. So I thinkRobin is central to this, to this
whole mission. You know, as Ifeel about Nancy, I think each person
is playing their part reallywell. So I really. I really enjoy
watching her work, you know,and she's got 500 episodes under
her belt. They better listento her, you know what I mean? Like,
she's rocking. She's rocking Robin.
I'm also glad that they justwent straight into her and Vicki

(01:00:18):
being a couple. I'm glad thatwe're. Yeah, I. I was very hopeful
that we would start the seasonand they were already a couple, and
so I'm glad we don't have togo through the, like, Max and Lucas
getting together kind ofthing. I'm. I'm glad that they're
just together and that'sgreat. And they're. They seem really

(01:00:39):
happy, even though, you know,Robin apparently cancels on Vicki
whenever she has asupernatural errand to run, so.
And what is in this? Thesebreadsticks that Enzo's like, they
were mid argument and she waspissed, and then she said, I got
us reservations at Enzo's. Andthree turnaround. Three, two, one.

(01:01:01):
100. Let's go. Oh, my God. Howare you gonna do that? Like, Enzo
is the spot. I need to.
I think it's. I think it's anice restaurant in town, right? But
I also think that it'sprobably super popular since nobody
can leave. Like, imagine.Imagine your Enzo's business is booming
cuz nobody. You can't go toone town over anymore.

(01:01:24):
Oh, my God.
I remember back. I rememberback in Hurricane Sandy, I was living
in the same neighborhood inBrooklyn, and all the restaurants
were packed to the brimsbecause we couldn't leave the neighborhood.
We were trapped. There was nosubway. You couldn't drive anywhere.
It's a fair point. It'sdefinitely, definitely a fair point.
Oh, my gosh. So let's talkabout some things that we learned.

(01:01:48):
Well, first, before we getinto the things we learned, we did
see this giant wall in theUpside Down. And I guess one thing
that kind of comes to mind ishas it been there all the time? Did
it just get there? Have theyjust never ran into it before? I

(01:02:08):
mean, it's interesting becausewe know, like, in other seasons they
left the lab and went out fromthe Upside Down. But is the library.
How. Where proximity to thelibrary is the labor. And would they
hit the wall before they gotto the library? Would the library
be inside that wall as well?I, I, I guess I kind of don't know.

(01:02:28):
And I'm wondering whether it'salways been there.
I have a lot of questionsabout the wall. I think this all
goes back to Lucas's pointabout the date.
Yeah.
Because if they've been on 30something crawls and they never saw
this wall.

(01:02:49):
Before.
And Elle cannot see beyond thewall. Seems like this is new. This
is. This might be. This wasn'there before. And so. Or maybe they
never went fully. They nevertried to leave town on the crawls

(01:03:10):
before. I guess we just, like,don't really know how much. How much
space they could cover on asingle crawl. You know, I mean, like,
like how, how close to thetown lines did they get? I don't
know. It just. It seems likeit. I think it might be something
new. We also don't know whenthe last crawl was. So it's been.

(01:03:33):
So Robin's done 500broadcasts, so we can assume she
does one a day. So it's been500 days and they've done 30 crawling
crawls. 30 plus crawls. So wedon't know when the last time they
went in there. I think, Ithink we need some answers about.
When, when they, like, howoften they go. Obviously they only

(01:03:57):
go when there's a burn, so howoften is that happening? When was
this wall. I don't even knowwhat to call it made because I almost
said erected. But that wouldbe like if you were using brick and
mortar, like, like this thingis like made of some kind of fleshy
material. But I wonder if. IfLucas's point about the dates have

(01:04:19):
to do with the wall going up.Also with the Demogorgord attack
on the convoy. Something ishappening in the Upside down, and
I don't think we've seen. Weknow exactly what. What that is yet,
because it just hasn't beenrevealed to us yet.
Yeah. And I mean, I'd be lyingif when they hit. When. When they

(01:04:39):
started showing the wall, Ididn't, like, immediately hear Tormund's
voice, like, who's thewildling now? You know what I mean?
Like. Like, I swear, I mean,like, it was giving. Like, wait a
second. There's a wall in thisstory now, too. And there's a Vecna
who's, like, the Night Kingand, like, he's abducting. What the
fuck is happening? Anyway, I.I went to Game of Thrones mind. I
had to reel myself backbecause my mind automatically defaults

(01:05:02):
to Game of Thrones. I waslike, wait, this is not the story.
So I do think, like, I'm. Imean, do we want to talk about what
we think the wall is? Do youhave. Do you have an idea of what
the wall is? Because I kind ofthink I.
At this point in these twoepisodes, I don't have anything.
I don't think we have enoughinformation to speculate yet.
Okay. All right, so we'll talkabout it. We'll see as we get down.

(01:05:24):
I have some ideas I want totalk about as we get further. But,
yeah, I think it's. It's goingto be interesting that there's a
wall and upside down. I thinkwhat we've learned. Is that Vecna
uses the hive mind as anextension of himself. So it's interesting

(01:05:47):
to learn that he can now seelike, that. With Will's visions,
he can see Vecna'sperspective. I think that's new information.
We've never had that before,that he's able to see the perspective
of Vecna. And let's be fair,most of the season with Vecna, Will
was not in Hawkins. So that'sinteresting that they're introducing

(01:06:08):
now that he's closer, thathe's able to do that. I thought that
was an interesting takeaway. Ialso think that. There'S. They. I
don't understand why themilitary is still doing this. The
doctors have done this. Thelab technicians have done this. They're
still doing burns to push,push back. They've been burning this

(01:06:30):
thing for I don't know howlong. And maybe they're like. It
looks like these burns areactually just to get supplies through
to go somewhere, it lookslike, because these are like supply
trucks, but they're stilldoing fucking burns. What do you.
What are you. What are yourthoughts about these burns?
Yeah, it seems like the burnsare just to open up the gates, which

(01:06:55):
seem to Heal. Which is just. Idon't know, like, I don't really
understand the. I guess thepurpose of the gates is so that the
Upside down can move freelyinto our world, but not necessarily
the other way around. But itseems like they need to go. The military

(01:07:16):
at the very least issurveilling the Upside down on semi
regular basis. And so that'swhat the burns are about. They're
trying. They're. They're.Burning that like the membrane between
Hawkins and the Upside Down. Ialso think that it's great that like

(01:07:38):
it's. They can just go intothe Upside down for whatever reason.
Right. They don't have to. Dothe whole like, upside down becomes
right side up thing. It's justlike they are now apparently the
same. You can just walk intothe Upside down if you have an open
portal. Yeah, I know.

(01:07:58):
Their new sling. He's flipped.Yeah, I love that. Anyway. Yeah.
Yeah. I think that. I think weneed to know more about what the
military is doing, not just inHawkins, but. But in the Upside down
in general.
Yeah. And I think a good clueto that is going to be what else
we've learned is that we havea new antagonist or who's been presented

(01:08:22):
as an antagonist. Dr. K. She'stracking 11 with real military precision,
bringing some of those peoplethat we saw in season four. And so
there is a government agenda.We're aware of that. So we learned
that the government isobviously occupying. Creating sledding
skateboarding lanes for theyouth in the community accidentally.

(01:08:46):
And also that they are insearch of Elle and in search of answers
around what happened here withthis. With this paranormal activity.
I think also. We learned thatWill's connection was never fully
severed and that proximityseems to have strengthened the signal.

(01:09:07):
And this is where we learnabout Robbins, like, oh, wait, that
means that you're like areceptor. And I think like this is
information that is. It'sfascinating to find out this late
in the journey if you're likethe rest of the party. Like, it would
have been nice to know thisearlier because I think Will has.
Will. They know that he messeswith Will, but I don't think they

(01:09:30):
really understand that. Thatthe connection to the hive mind hasn't
been severed quite that way. Ifound that fascinating. I mean, we
kind of assumed that alreadyas an audience, but I think it's
good confirmation coming fromWill. But it's fascinating that he
hasn't shared that with therest of the group. It seems like
his mom was unaware of thatfact when she's Saying it to him.

(01:09:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think Robinmakes a good point that he hasn't
been close enough to the hivemind. So maybe, like, since. Since
they severed the connection.The only time that Will has been
close to the hive mind was inseason three, back at his house,
when the mind flayer. Theflesh mind flayer, came for El. Right.
He was there for that. And hedid warn them that the hive knew

(01:10:19):
where the flayed knew wherethey were. Right. So we knew that
the connection was still.Still existed then. But this feels
really new. And so it's morethan just the proximity. Something
has changed. Because before,when they were at the mall, he was

(01:10:40):
right up against the hivemind. I mean, all the flayed were
creating this gooey monster,right? Billy was right there. And.
Unless Will just didn't tellus. He wasn't able to see through
that perspective then. So Ithink something has changed. It could
be that the hive is becomingmore powerful because Vecna is becoming

(01:11:02):
more powerful. Like, we don'treally know what Vecna has been doing
these last. 16 months orwhatever it is. So I think they will
need to reveal what haschanged for Will because something
has changed. This isn't. Thisis. And, like, the. You know, a lot
has changed, right? The upsidedown is no longer upside down. Now

(01:11:24):
it's.
It's.
It's right side up, just likeHawkins. You can walk into it, right?
There's, like, a bunch ofthings that have changed. So. The.
Veil between worlds is verythin. It's so thin that Demogorgons
can come and go as theyplease. Right? So I think there's,
like, a bunch of things thatare kind of showing us that, like,

(01:11:47):
something has changed prettysignificantly. That may have just
been that all these gatesopened, that Vecna was able to complete
his season four plan. And. Andall of this maybe would have happened
to Will because that washappening now. Now that the. The
veil between the two worlds isso thin, maybe Will's connection

(01:12:09):
to the hive mind is moreintent, but also I'm a little suspicious.
Like, we've seen the hive mindwork against us before. So I'm a
little bit like, yeah, 100.Will, Will, you in danger. Like what?

(01:12:29):
Like this does it. This feelslike it could. It's like, it's not
just that he's a receptor.This could go both ways. So we'll
have to see how it unfolds.
Yeah, I think we'll have tosee how it unfolds. And I also think
that guy. I. Yeah, I'm kind oflike, thinking about. As you started
talking, you triggered somethoughts in my mind about. Why wasn't

(01:12:51):
he hurt when, for example,Billy got hurt when they were at
the mall or when they broughtdown some of these other things.
So it's very clear thatsomething changed when the gates
opened. Like, to me, from whatyou're saying, that that changing
of the dynamic probablyhappened with Vecna accomplishing
the four deaths, that hewanted to open those portals in the

(01:13:13):
previous season because it'svery. He's responding to the. The
hive mind and also to justupside down and those powers, like,
very differently this season.So, yeah, I think it's something
to keep an eye on. There's apurpose to the Demogorgons in a way
that we haven't quite seenthis before. Or maybe it's always.

(01:13:38):
I mean, they do show that whenWill was taken, they had a purpose
and a mission as well. Somaybe they've always had a purpose
and we saw them as random.
No, but, like. So I. Sorry tointerrupt you, but that's. I think
you're on to something. I. Ijust wanted to go back to the. Season
one. When that Demogorgoncrashes into the buyer's house for

(01:14:02):
no purpose other than. Like,they wanted it to come and somebody
was bleeding. So, like, theydon't always have a mission. Right.
But it seems like in thisseason, when they. When a Demogorgon
is out and about, it hassomething to do. Like.
Right.
Maybe they have marchingorders now. And before, it was more

(01:14:23):
random. But, like, I don'tthink we were totally wrong that
they were acting somewhatrandomly in season one and two, because
they kind of were like. Yeah,except for when they came for Ellen
in season one at the school.There was the one that shows up at

(01:14:48):
the house. What purpose wouldit go to the buyer's house? You know,
Will wasn't there. There wasno purpose to being there other than
they lured it there by usingblood, by spilling blood, so on terrain
that it had already been to.And so I think there was a little

(01:15:11):
bit of randomness to the waythey behaved before. But they do
seem to have very clearmarching orders now. Or maybe. Or
maybe Vecna has better controlover them now.
Vecna may have better controlover them as well. I definitely think
that that's a very bigpossibility. But my question is,
in the time when they put outthe blood to lure the Demogorgon,

(01:15:34):
we still haven't gotten Willyet, Right? That that's correct is
they haven't found Will yet.So it's before. Could it have been
that he was still in search ofWill before he got fireballed by
Will inside the Upside down?Because it's the 12th, right? Isn't
it the 12th when he actuallygets them? So that's when they actually
go and get.
So, so, yes, but, but I don'tthink there's that much time because

(01:15:59):
in season one. Eleven says toWill, hold on, your mom is coming.
He's singing, should I stay orshould I go? And then during that
vision, the Demogorgon isoutside of the castle Byers in the
Upside down while El is in theVoid, Right. And that is when Hopper

(01:16:24):
and Joyce leave to go findhim. And then Nancy and Jonathan
wait a half hour, an hour,and, and they're also delayed, right,
because they have to go to thepolice station and steal all of their
stuff that got confiscatedearlier in the day. So they have
to set up all the traps. Sothis is several hours later. So I

(01:16:48):
don't think that, like. Idon't. I think that Demogorgon got
Will almost immediately afterElle saw him in in the Void.
Yeah, I think so too. I, I, I,I think so too, because I think the
thing, the thing that I, I wasreally concerned about was whether
or not the Demogorgon had timeto still be searching for Will. And

(01:17:10):
I don't think from what, whatwe're talking about, I don't think
so.
I just don't think so. Becauseeven if. Even if it's just took an
hour to go from the policestation. Yeah, that definitely.
Do we know how time works inthere, though? Like, that's the thing
I don't really understandenough about. Do we know that time

(01:17:31):
works exactly the same in theVoid and in Dimension X and in the
Upside down as it does becauseit's frozen in the Upside Down? Do
we know that time worksexactly the same in our world until
they.
Until they tell us otherwise?I would assume so. And, and it does
appear to now, at least,right. They can hear Hopper in real

(01:17:54):
time.
That's fair.
In the Upside down and, and inseason four, they could hear the,
the teenagers who were stuckin the Upside Down. Well, they could
hear Dustin in real time.
Yeah.
Right. So I think it is, Idon't know. I, I think my, the way
I'm reading this is Elleappears to Will, tells him to stay

(01:18:18):
put, Donoghue arrives, Willshoots it in the face, which again,
Chef's Kiss. More of that.More of that.
Yes. Beautiful.
Then runs from it, getscaught, gets Bought to Vecna and
maybe four or five hourslater, Hopper and Joyce show up.

(01:18:41):
Because it's got to be a fewhours because remember, Hopper and
Joyce get to stuck in the lab.By Brenner, keeps him in the lab
for a while. So I think it's amatter of hours. I don't think Vna
had Will very long. I'm. But Iam curious about when he says, at
long last, we can begin, whatdoes he mean? Is he talking about

(01:19:04):
the. The six days that. ThatWill has not been in his grasp? Is
he talking about, did he havehis eye on Will longer than that
was? Was Vecna able to seeinto the regular world until before
L opened the gate? Like, westill have a lot of questions to
answer, so I think hopefullywe will get the answers to that.

(01:19:25):
And if we don't get the actualarticulated answer, I think we'll
have at least logic that willhelp us make those connections. I.
My guess is that all of ourlittle nits and picks and questions
are not going to get answered,but we will have the framework that
will help us answer some ofthose questions, even if we don't
have definitive answers.
I agree. And I don't think we.You know, there'll be a million theories,

(01:19:50):
there'll be a million thingsthat people come up with just like
we've seen this so many times.I mean, look no further than Game
of Thrones, right, where wehope that obviously what I think
they're doing a better job tothis point of, is keeping the main
story on the tracks, which isgreat in a way, in a pace that feels
like, okay, this makes sense.Let's see how they end this in the

(01:20:15):
last four episodes. But Ithink ultimately what is going to
matter is were they able to dothat? Were they able to get us to
the things that matter to tellthis story in its totality? The side
theories will be fun. We'llcome up with different things. But
I definitely agree with youthat I think there's some things
that just won't get answered,but the main thing should get answered.
Why Will? We kind of. We'lltalk a little bit about that in our

(01:20:37):
next episode. What is Vecna'sultimate plan? Was that plan stopped?
Did you know why? What. Wherewas L? Like, L's like, part in this
plan or being able to stop it?I think one of the things that we
learned that we didn't touchon that's really fascinating is it
seems like with L's inabilityto get through that wall that Vecna

(01:21:00):
maybe possibly creating aspace that Elle can't penetrate.
So I think that that's afascinating thing to think about.
Right. So I don't know.Hopefully we get the main beats of
the story is what we'relooking for. And I think like we're.
So far, so good. So far sogood. I think we'll see. I think,
I think so far I'm feelingreally good about where, where we
are today with, with the storyand where it's come from. So I feel,

(01:21:23):
I feel excited about it.
Me too. I'm sad that it's thefinal season, but I'm glad we finally
have it and to be back inHawkins and to get some answers to
some of these questions we'vebeen asking for years. So I'm extremely
pleased with these first fourepisodes and I'm very angry that

(01:21:43):
I have to wait several weeksso they can ruin my Christmas by
probably killing my favorite characters.
Oh, it's tough. It's tough.Listen, we stayed up till two in
the morning watching theseepisodes the day before Thanksgiving
knowing that we all had tocook, travel, do whatever and there

(01:22:05):
was no stopping us. We refusedto be stopped.
Very poor life decisions. Lifechoices were made. But I have no
regrets. No regrets.
Zero, zero regrets. All right,so I guess the last thing we'll close
with, I know we're running alittle long is just themes. What

(01:22:27):
themes jumped out to you ifthere were, if there were some themes
that you wanted to talk aboutor touch on before we close?
I mean, I think the main thingwe've talked about a bit already,
which is just this likeparent. Child dynamic that's playing
out with Joyce and Hopper andWill and Elle respectively. It's

(01:22:49):
very big in the first fewepisodes. And I think it's interesting
because a lot of it is aboutfaith and having faith and trust
in each other. And the. To meit's so appropriate because they're.
Ellen, Will are older teensnow. You know, they are at that age

(01:23:13):
where your parents have to letgo of your grip and start to their
grip and let. And start totrust your judgment a little bit
more. And so I think it's,it's so important in a story like
that to remind us to ground usin the fact that this is a coming
of age story at the end of theday. Yes, it has monsters, yes, there
are people of powers, yes,there are big world altering things,

(01:23:37):
but this is a coming of agestory about young people coming into
themselves, whateverthemselves may be. And so I think
that the, the parental dynamicbetween Hopper and El and Joyce and
Will and Joyce and Jonathan tosome respect, because I think Jonathan
could actually use a littlebit more mothering than he gets.

(01:24:02):
But I think that's really animportant theme to deal with and
to grapple with early in theseason. Because we're going to have
losses here. We don't knowwho's going to be lost. But what
we don't want is for thisdynamic where there's mistrust between

(01:24:23):
the adults and the kids. Wedon't want the kids to feel like
their parents, don't trustthem, don't believe in them, don't
think that they can do all thethings that they say they can do.
And also a thing that I thinkJoyce and Hopper have to kind of
accept from all the kids isthat they actually have more experience
in this than they do. Youknow, they've been. They've been.

(01:24:44):
While Joyce and Hopper havebeen dealing with the human elements
of this story for a reallylong time. The kids have been dealing
with the supernatural elementssince the beginning. No one knows
more about the Upside downthan Will. Period. End of sentence.

(01:25:04):
And the fact that no onereally acknowledges that that Will
is not seen as an exampleexpert is frustrating. So I'm glad
that he's coming into his own.I'm glad that El is holding her ground,
too. Although I wastransported back to season two when
l was like, I don't understandwhy I can't go like, here we go again.

(01:25:25):
Here we go. In a moment she'sgonna be like, you are just like
Papa.
Papa. Exactly. No, she was. Itwas. It was. It's so crazy to see
their dynamic going back andforth. And I really love that Joyce
was like, why are you being sohard on her? I really love that she
kissed. See that in Hopper. Iwish that she was able to see that
sometimes when she'scommunicating with Jonathan or even
when she's pulling Will back.But she could definitely see in Hopper,

(01:25:47):
it's always easy to see somein somebody else. I. I actually love
this dynamic. I actually loveit because you and I even talked
about by this point, in a lotof YA and other kind of formats,
the parents have long been.Been discarded.
The parents are dead. They notdealing with parents.
Yeah, they're not dealing withthem. And I. And I really like it

(01:26:10):
because as a. As a parent,what, you know, I think. I think
about when I was watchingthese things was, was that there's
a moment that you have whereyou have all these great ideas and
you've been the person that'sbeen protecting. And your ideas have
been like the North Star foryour child, and this is what you
should do. And then they comewith their own idea, and their idea

(01:26:34):
is actually better or their.Their plan is actually better. And
the. The. The moment of, like.I don't know how to say, there's
a. There's like an idea of,like. I'm super proud of that, and
I'm also humbled by it. AndI'm also like. And there's also like
a. Not a sadness. It's a hardword to put into the. The Brazilians

(01:26:56):
would have the word saudaji,because that's what I think actually
it feels, but it's a.
A.
It's like a longing and asadness and a happiness and a. All
in one where you just feellike this. Like, oh, my gosh, I'm
watching this person grow. AndI'm also mourning the loss of this
little person that I had toshepherd through life. And it's.

(01:27:18):
It's a beautiful thing. Itreally is beautiful. And I. And I.
And I see that happening aswe've seen a lot in this show Mirrored
and Will's journey and Elle'sjourney right now, where she's leading
Hopper through the UpsideDown. And even when he's like, what
are we going to do in thissituation? She's kind of like, we're
going to go into this guy'smind and I'm going to get the answers
and we're going to figure thisout. And she's like, kind of, you

(01:27:40):
know, she calls him out likeshe, like. Hopper's trying to catch
up when they first meet backup, which is funny as hell, which
Carrie.
But she says it's not. I'm notmoving off of emotion. I'm moving
off of instinct.
Instinct.
And that's so importantbecause I think from the parent point

(01:28:01):
of view, of course, thatmoment where. Where your kid is,
like, becoming the person thatyou've tried you want them to become
is both victorious, butthere's also, like, a certain level
of, like, loss in that moment.But as a kid, such a big. Such a
big moment of becoming anadult is earning the trust and respect

(01:28:23):
of your parents and gettingthem to see you as a fully formed
person and not just anextension of them. And so when Elle
said instinct, I felt that Iwas like, yes. Like, we need to.
We, the audience and Hopperhave to trust her, even if she's
not always right. Her and Willare literally the experts here. There's

(01:28:46):
no one who has moreinformation Than them. Not Nancy,
not Joyce, not Hopper. No onehas more information than them. Except
for maybe Vecna himself.
Yeah. Hopper, Take severalseats. Until you can piggyback from
a freezer inside of a pizzakitchen into someone else's mind.

(01:29:06):
Take several seats. Okay.That's it. No. Oh, man.
So I. I just thought that was,like, a beautiful early theme. I
mean, this. These. These firstfew episodes were. They did a much
better job than I expected ofkind of checking in on all the relationships.
So I feel really good. Even.In chapters one and two about where

(01:29:27):
all the relationships fall,for the most part, there's still.
I have some questions aboutsome of them, but I thought the parental
dynamic was particularlyinteresting in these first two.
Totally agree. Totally agree.And we're going to get into some
predictions. We have somepredictions. We can talk about it
next episode, but we're gonna.I really want to talk about when
we get back into the nextepisode. When we talk about three

(01:29:50):
or four. I think it's morepertinent. There is. What does Vecna
want from Will? We know how itstarted. We talked a little bit about
it in this episode. What doeshe want from Will? I think that's
a big. It's a big question Ithink we'll talk about in the next
episode, but. All right. Well,we are so grateful that you guys
are here with us listening tothese episodes about stranger Things.

(01:30:14):
We have appreciated all thediscourse going back and forth and
talking online, the textmessages and the inbox messages.
It's been great. Please keepthem coming and hit us up on kinfolklore
pod on Instagram,kinfolklorepod on X. Also, you can
hit us up on kinfolklore podon X, Facebook and all [e-mail]

(01:30:38):
and you can hit us up onthreads. Please hit us up on Threads
and substack. How do I. A lotof places to get in touch. So please
come and hang out with us,message us, read these articles that
we're putting up on substackand we will see you next time.
Bye, everyone. Ra.