Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.5 (Chapters 3-4)

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome back to Kin Folklore.
We're deep into season five ofStranger Things.
And Hawkins has officiallyentered its meltdown.
Error.
Full meltdown complete.
Full meltdown.
The kids are running heist.

(00:22):
Holly is stepping into her hero.
Error.
She's out here.
Like, I'm gonna be Holly the heroic.
She's on.
She's ready.
Max is trapped inside a mindmaze straight out of a horror movie.
And Steve Harrington iscasually driving through the Upside
down like he's looking for a shortcut.

(00:45):
I'm Andrea.
And I'm Paul.
And if you're going.
If you're joining us for thefirst time, we are cousins who live
for breaking down the wildestcorners of fantasy and sci fi.
And Stranger Things has givenus everything.
Everything we need this season.
Chapters three and four turnthe chaos all the way up.
We're talking monster hunts,military disasters, psychic warfare,

(01:11):
and Will Byers unlockingpowers he absolutely did not order
from a catalog.
Today we're covering seasonfive, chapters three and four, the
Turnbow Trap.
To the full on invasion fromMax wandering Henry's nightmare memories

(01:33):
to a reveal that changesabsolutely everything.
So if you haven't watchedchapter four yet, hit pause, go back
and watch it.
What are we doing here?
Watch it.
Actually watch it multiple times.
It's that good?
It's very good.
Oh, man.
And I'm so happy that we'relike, referencing and talking about
Max again.
Oh, my God.

(01:53):
She's back.
It's so great.
Our girl is back.
Our girl is back.
And with that, I want you toclose your eyes and focus on your
breathing.
Breathe in and out.
As you continue breathing, Iwant you to picture yourself on a
beach.
The water is blue.
Blue like a Smurf.

(02:14):
And if that doesn't work,remember, Kin folklore will have
adult content.
And no one is going to die for.
Ha.
Let's go.
Oh, man.
That is my.
I didn't realize I was goingto enjoy Derek as much as I am.

(02:35):
I did think I did make madreferences to him being Neville Longbottom.
And let's face it, the fate ofthe world rest in his hands in this
plot.
I may have said I don't wantany new characters.
I was wrong.
I was wrong.
Derek is great.
I love Derek.
I don't care what anyone.
I want a Derek T shirt.

(02:56):
He is.
He is what we need.
This season is heavy.
Yeah.
No, no.
This season is heavy.
There's too much going on.
Derek is.
Is giving us what we need.
I love it.
I love it.
And speaking of one of theTurnbows we'll start off with the
Turnbow trap.
The gang stages a mission, arescue scheme built entirely around
Derek Turnbow's natural chaos.

(03:19):
They want to use Derek as baitto draw out a Demogorgon hunting
him.
If they track it, they canfind Vecna's location and rescue
Holly.
After Erica goes full menace mode.
I mean like.
Poison pies.
I told you to eat your damn pie.

(03:40):
She told her.
She gave her a warning.
Tita got a freaking needle tothe back.
Like, oh my God.
She does pro.
She keeps her promises.
So she kid.
They kidnapped the entireTurnbow family.
And it's a home alone styleplan with all of the booby trapping
they possibly can do.

(04:01):
And it goes well until.
Until it doesn't go well.
The Demogorgon shows up at the.
At the abandoned farm whereJoyce and Erica, Will and Robin are
hiding the family.
He starts off at the house.
They light his ass up.
He starts to run away and thendoubles back.
I must man smelling.

(04:24):
How do you.
How do you know where the fuckDerek was?
It's crazy.
He just followed this in.
It's kind of wild.
Okay.
If he knew where Derek wasbecause Derek had woken up and could
see where they were, then whydidn't Will also know right away
that Derek was awake?

(04:45):
It's fair.
I have no.
I have no.
I have no answer.
After saving.
Their ass from the Demogorgon,like, like again, Will is in the
mind of a scene through theeyes of a Demogorgon.
Demogorgon backs up, car hits him.

(05:05):
Will fall to the ground.
It's kind of wild.
Steve, Nancy, Jonathan andDustin chase the devil Gorgon.
By literally driving throughthe Upside down with Steve's BMW.
They think they're going toget like the walls closing in on
them.
It's crazy.
It looks like it gives youback to the future vibes.
Honestly, it's really, reallywild that they did it that way.

(05:28):
Dustin discovers the fleshywall surrounding the Upside down
is a perfect circle.
The center point is theHawkins lab.
After encountering a militaryunit and wrecking nearly all of them,
torturing the survivingmember, Akers, Elle infiltrates his
mind and their weapon ishidden that she finds behind a door.

(05:50):
She believes the weapon to besomeone like her and assumes it's
Vecna.
Hopper and Elle plan toinfiltrate the military base.
But Hop's lack of trustfrustrates l a little bit.
We delved into that a littlebit last episode.
This is still something that's developing.
And then at the Creel house,Vecna's mindscape.

(06:10):
Holly is living her best life.
I mean, best life, best life.
Like her parents didn't justget mash up.
Holly is living the life thatKaren would live if she didn't have.
If she wasn't married to Tedand didn't have three kids plus the
whole Byers family to takecare of.
Word.
It's like.
It's giving home alone vibesagain as she dances through the house

(06:35):
cassette.
It's giving like grown up homealone vibes though.
I was like, this is how Iwould spend my Saturday if I had
nothing to do.
Yes, totally, 100%.
I mean, it just gave me theshades of like.
I mean, I do spend my Saturdaylike that sometimes dancing to the
house.
But it gave me like that vibeof when Kevin like realizes nobody's

(06:55):
in the house and he turns themusic up and he's having a blast
and try to.
It's great.
It's good stuff.
She's listening to the Tiffanycassette Henry gave her on her afternoon
alone.
And when someone comes to thedoor, she thinks it's.
She thinks it's Derek already.
She's like, Derek, if this isyou, you little shit.

(07:16):
The note is actually fromHenry telling her to do the very
thing that he told her not todo before he left, which was going
to the woods and meet him in a cave.
But it turns out it's actually Max.
And the episode ends with Maxrevealing she is trapped inside Henry's
mindscape also.
And Holly is now trappedinside it too.

(07:40):
Episode four, the Sorcerer.
Or I should say chapter four.
Sorcerer.
Episode four begins with themilitary rounding up children.
You know, typical stranger things.
Round up all the children,throw them in buses, take them to
like some secure location.
Turns out Dr. K wants to usethem as bait for L. Even though L

(08:01):
is in the Upside Down.
L has nothing to do with this.
The military intelligence is not.
Not doing its job here in the mindscape.
Max explains that she's beenwandering Henry's memories for months.
The massacre Hawkins Lab iswhere she woke up when El bought
her back to life.
Although she doesn't know thatit's El who brought her back to life.

(08:24):
Then she ends up in HawkinsHigh in 1959.
Then she sees her memorieswhere she appears Billy her death.
And she's basically tellingHolly that she's trapped in this
world that's essentially a prison.
Holly names the worldKamazots, tying it directly to the

(08:46):
book.
A Wrinkle in Time.
Meanwhile, back in Hawkins.
Because you know, they gottahave a plan, right?
They can't they can't wait.
They can't wait and see.
For anything to play out, theygot to have a plan.
So they launch their greatescape plan.
They're going to use dipshitDerek, who's going to be delightful

(09:08):
Derek.
To go into the base wherethey're holding the children.
They're going to dig a tunnel.
Well, they're not digging afull tunnel.
One of the.
The tunnels goes under there.
But they're going to dig ahole in the bathroom to sneak up
to the barracks and smuggleout the children that had been targeted

(09:32):
by Henry out of the barracksso that they can.
We're going to pray that ourreal armed forces are way better
at securing locations thanthese fictitious armed forces, because
the fact that there is no onethat has secured these tunnels.
There's no fucking militarypresence under underground.

(09:53):
Making sure no one can passthrough these tunnels is deeply concerning
for their competency.
I don't think they know thetunnels are there.
It's insane.
How do they not know?
Anyway, I. I have.
I don't know what to say.
I honestly don't know what to say.
The military, I'm not impressed.
So Derek runs the con perfectly.

(10:15):
As delightful Derek.
Like, just smacking up peopleas he's like, yo, go, go.
It was.
It was very amusing.
Is it the most delightfulthing for him to do?
No, no, no.
Dip.

(10:36):
Dip.
Derek is still in there, but,you know, he's trying.
He's.
He's.
He's using his.
His chaos to work on the sideof good.
So proving further that themilitary ain't.
Hopper and Eleven break intothe base in the Upside Down.
They discover that behind thehidden door is Zint Vecna.

(11:00):
It's actually El's lostsister, Kali.
Oh, you hear that sound?
You hear that sound?
Big surprise.
That's.
That's.
That's us taking a victory lapabout how important the lost sister
is.
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's.
That.
That's that sound.
You right there.
Can't wait to talk about this.
No, I'm gonna wait till I'm.

(11:20):
We're done with this summarybecause I have some things to say
to some of y' all who sent usnotes about how much you hated back
in Hawkins.
The Demogorgon surge out ofthe Upside down and massacre the
military.
And then Vecna comes out, andhe needs to show off his new CrossFit
body.
The waist snatch like been doing.

(11:44):
He's been focusing a littlebit too much on one arm for arm day
because one arm is smallerthan the Other.
You gotta do Pilates.
You gotta.
Before you start back.
But Vecna, he's been eatingsome protein.
He's been resting.

(12:04):
All of that.
He looks.
He knew.
He looks brand new.
He says some words to Willabout how Will was weak.
Yada, yada, yada.
I'm not.
We'll talk about that morelater because it's all.
And the point is, Will thentaps into memories of his childhood
when he feels most loved.

(12:27):
And he.
He unleashes the powers weknew that he had.
And kills all of theDemogorgon, saving the following
people.
Mike, Robin, and probably Murray.
Definitely Lucas was done.
So.
Lucas was done done there.

(12:49):
I.
Before the show came out, Isaw many people freaking out about
the.
That clip from the trailer ofLucas in the tunnels with a Demogorgon
on each side.
And they were like, it don'tlook good for our brother.
He's fine.
His friend got him.
Yeah, yeah, he's good.
Somebody go check on Mike,though, because he's like, out here,

(13:12):
like, you know, he's got athing for superheroes.
So, like, it's likeeverybody's going crazy.
He's like, don't do it.
Stop, stop, stop.
I'm not doing this with you.
I'm really.
Nothing was so funny.
I'm good to my.
Somebody posted like, Willwanted Mike so bad, he became lucky.

(13:37):
Okay, moving along.
I'm trying to do Derek'smindfulness exercise right now because
I honestly can't deal with thediscourse online.
Honestly can't deal with it.
All right, so.
He has become the sorcerer.
But before we get to talkingabout all of that, let's pour one

(14:01):
out.
Begrudgingly.
Begrudgingly.
Pouring one out for LieutenantColonel Sullivan.
Oh, God.
Torturer of Owens.
So sad.
Do we really care?
Like, I feel like we shouldjust crack the bottle.
You know what?
There should be a new People suck.

(14:22):
We're going to hail our queenon Karen Wheeler and just crash a
bottle.
Karen, walk him down, Wheeler.
Karen, walk him down, Wheeler,and just fucking crack a bottle.
Like, that's it.
That's all.
Now we will force them outbecause they were just following
orders and doing the best they could.
For every single soldier inthe Mac Z base, they fought the best

(14:46):
they could.
They were warned by dipshitDerek that his men weren't going
to be able to do shit they wish.
They smack up the boy in theback of his head.
I don't know why they didthat, but he was right.
And they all died.
And that's how it went.
But nonetheless, we Will poursome out for every single soldier
at the maxi base.

(15:09):
This goes out to all ourfallen homies.
Yo, liquor.
Don't let the chin get likethat, y'.
All.
Okay.
All right.
That was enough.
We don't need to pour anymore.
Don't spill any more liquor.
These are very light episodesin comparison to where we've come,

(15:30):
which makes me very concernedfor the back half of this season,
because these first twoepisodes, these first four, we.
There's not been a lot toworry about.
We probably should havestocked up on Black Friday liquor
for the rest of the season.
So let's.
I mean, we're gonna have totake this thing in.
Beats.
There's a lot going on inthese episodes.

(15:53):
I want to start in a placethat I think is, you know, one of
our favorite characters.
Minor character in the sensethat he's not part of all the action,
but major in the sense that hewas once a safe space for these kids
to explore their curiosity.
Very good at teaching science,quite obviously, because they're

(16:13):
math and science and all thesethings, because these kids are able
to.
Especially Dustin, and all ofthem really able to figure things
out quite easily.
Let's talk about Mr. Clark.
His wormhole explanation.
We know the fleeing acrobatexplanation set.
This all got them tounderstand other dimensions really

(16:36):
well.
So now he's bringing in thisnew understanding about wormholes.
I thought it was.
I really enjoyed where this.
Where this went.
I thought it was.
It was great.
When, you know, Mr. Clark, hestarts off and he starts talking
about the Einstein Rosen bridge.
So he immediately calls it abridge, which is going to be fascinating

(16:58):
based on what we know comingwith one of the episode titles before.
And then he goes into.
It's commonly known as awormhole, as often depicted in our
hourglass shape, such as this.
There's an image on the board.
While the existence ofwormholes is entirely theoretical,
like the flea and the acrobatsituation, they have captured the

(17:22):
fascination of scientists andscience fiction writers alike, including
the duffers.
Can anyone tell me why that is?
Eddie doesn't want to call onour girl Erica, because quite obviously
she's probably answering allthe questions, and then eventually
she does.
To which Erica says why that is.
And we go into this whole kindof, like, setup.

(17:43):
I think it's a quick scene,but I think a setup for what is coming.
What are your thoughts aboutthe wormhole?
About how it's introduced?
About what they're kind of thetracks that we see kind of being
laid in this particular moment.
A wormhole is a theoretical tunnel.
Right.
And it brings two pointsequal, equidistant to each other,

(18:04):
eliminating essentially thespace to travel in between.
So that could allow for a lotof stuff, but in particular, I'm
upset about the fact that it allows.
It could allow for time travel.
Okay, I'm just gonna be honestabout it.
I've been saying I don't want any.
Time stuff by the time stuff.

(18:26):
It seems very clear to me thatthat's where this is leading.
As soon as I saw what was onthe board behind this man, I groaned.
Because it allows for you totravel possibly between dimensions,
possibly between planets,possibly through time.
And so I find it.

(18:49):
I'm not excited, let me justput it that way.
But I will say is, he doesalso say what the weaknesses are,
which is that.
They'Re unstable.
And so I think what we canassume from this episode is that
with his 12 children that heis snatching, Vecna is planning to

(19:13):
create a wormhole for whatever reason.
We don't know what the reasonis, and this is all speculation.
We have not seen Dion Volume 1.
So I just want to be really clear.
I know some people, somepodcasters got screeners for.
I don't think anyone gotscreeners for volume two yet, but
we didn't get any screeners.
So we're just speculating.

(19:34):
I think we can assume thatVecna is trying to build some kind
of wormhole with the.
With the.
Powered by the 12 childrenthat he's snatching up.
But Mr. Clark gave us theframework for undermining that because
he's telling us it's unstable,which means possibly if you remove

(19:55):
one child from the plan, ifyou, you know, create a weakness
in some part of the wormhole.
So I think that this is veryStranger things type setup for what
is going to be at least a bigpart of, I would say, the next three
episodes.
I don't know that this isnecessarily the end game story here.

(20:18):
I'm curious about how this isgoing to play out.
If we will actually see sometime travel, if they're going to
be able to kind of thwart anyplans that Vecna has.
But the.
What he drew on the board andwhat will draws, paints rather, after
their encounter with theDemogorgon, are essentially almost
like the same.

(20:40):
So I think.
I think that's where we'reheading with this.
Yeah.
And I think to your pointabout time travel and time and the
12 kids, I think we couldstart getting into the 12 points
on a clock.
We all know that Vecna lovesclocks, and these guys love Back
to the Future, which centersaround a clock and a clock tower.

(21:01):
So there's a lot of.
There's a lot of timeinsinuations, which plays into the
memory stuff that we've talked about.
I think that we're going tosee something that has to do with.
With.
With time, for sure.
Well, there's also the.
The number 12 has othersignificance, but we're going to
talk about that later in thespoiler section.

(21:24):
I want to go to a lighter subject.
As a person who may put amonkey wrench talk about one thing
in the instability.
Let's talk about pure chaos.
Let's talk about Derek Turnbox.
Go Derek Turnbow right away,right out the gate.
First of all, finding out thatthat's Tina's brother is wild.
Like.
Okay, we need to take a momentfor this.

(21:45):
The most shocking thingrevealed in both episodes was not
that Will has powers, not thatKali slash 8 is still kicking around
and his return is it.
Tina is white.
Didn't see that coming.
All this time, I thought Tinawas one of the little black girls
behind Erica in season three.

(22:06):
The way.
The way that Lucas describes Tina.
I thought you said that Tinawas evil.
I thought you said she was mean.
Oh, she's not mean.
She's a villain.
Like, would murder yourpuppies for their coat villain.
He basically describes Krillin Deville.
He's like, listen, that's it.
Oh, God, that's great.
So what.

(22:28):
What do we think about.
I mean, I thought that Derek,I really.
I love the way that theyintroduce him.
I love the way that he's.
His irreverence.
The thing about Derek is he isa bully, right?
He sucks.
Like, he's.
He.
He is.
All the kids hate him.
He bullies Holly.
Holly hates him a lot.
But then instead ofrecontextualizing his bullying.

(22:54):
The way they tried to do withBilly, they just make the whole thing
a joke.
Like, he's dip Derek to everybody.
Like, he's mean to everybody.
He's.
It's just so good.
And the reason it's so funnyis because he has the most bizarre
lines ever written in this series.

(23:15):
Like.
Like, yeah, but Joyce is like,when Joyce is trying to negotiate
with him and he.
She's like, do you know who I am?
An evil child kidnapper.
Oh, my God.
And then Joyce.
Joyce is like, so insulted.
I'm just a mom.

(23:35):
It just.
It's so good.
And the part where, like.
I'm sorry.
The part where the military islike, our.
That's why we're here, is whywe have these.
Consider protective.
No disrespect, sir, but I'veseen what's coming, and you're making
it do shit.
He's just.
I. I thoroughly enjoy Dipshik.

(23:56):
Yeah.
Derek, Like, I just love him.
He's.
He's funny.
Yes.
I would like for him not tobully Holly anymore.
I'm not.
I'm not condoning bullying.
I just think that hischaracter is pure chaos, and they
honestly need a little levityin this.
No, they're taking.
It's.
It's.
It's getting.
It's getting super heavy, andthey needed.

(24:18):
They needed something to breakit up.
I did have a question for you,though, about Derek.
Did you have his GI Joelunchbox when you were a kid?
GI Joe lunchbox?
I did.
I did.
I was like, I'm pretty surePaul had that.
100% had that lunchbox.
I didn't.
I didn't think you were gonna.
I saw it, and I was like, oh, no.

(24:39):
I saw.
I saw the lunchbox, and I'mlike, I seen that lunchbox.
100% GI Joe lunchbox.
I was like, holy.
Like, they nailed that.
They absolutely nailed that.
I was.
I was like, that is amazing.
I used to.
I used to watch that damncartoon after, like, school.
Like, you know, you have,like, the after school program.
They would have us.

(25:00):
They would turn that on, andwe would.
We would watch it.
That and like, he man.
Masters of the universe wereback to back.
He man.
I was gonna say.
And the.
The Barbie cartoon used to beon, I think, right before that.
Exactly.
No.
100.
Yeah.
So I used to watch, like, Shira.
Like, it was like, Barbie, Shira.

(25:23):
G.I.
joe.
That was the lineup, and.
It was so good.
Like, I. I used to lovewatching those.
I.
The Barbie show.
I could miss.
Yeah, I could miss that one,but I could not miss my Shira.
Like, that was going to be a part.
That's the thing I think thisshow does so great is it brings back
those memories.
Like, because I was thinkingabout that as we were, like, prepping.

(25:44):
I was like, oh, wow.
All those references.
And even the.
Even the freaking, like, tapecassette box that Holly gets is like,
I've seen one of those before.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's like, oh, yeah,this is great.
You know, a lot of people hadmemories from episode.
One when Karen's pouring thebubble bath into the bath they said

(26:07):
their grandmothers use.
I think it's Avon's bubble bath.
I don't know.
I Didn't recognize it becauseI lived in an Olay household, so
we didn't have any Avon products.
But.
But a lot of people noted that.
That it was like, oh, my gosh,I remember my grandmother having
that in her bathroom.
So they did.
They did good, really goodprop work.

(26:28):
But when I saw.
I. I was typing the outlineand I was like, bold question mark.
I did that lunchbox 100%.
I did finish it up with Derek.
Robin's deadpan reaction.
Oh, my God.
She goes, what?

(26:49):
Oh, good.
I. Robin's reaction is, it'sso funny because Erica's used to
his bullshit.
So Erica does not react toanything he says in any meaningful
way other than to, like, yellback at him.
Robin is completely shocked.
She's like, who is this kid?

(27:09):
Because he's probably like.
If you think about it, most ofthe kids outside of, like, the bully
from high school or the.
Most of these kids have beenpretty well behaved kids.
Like, they've done their own shit.
They've done, but they'vebeen, like, pretty.
Like, this is like a whole newcharacter type.
They're like, I gotta givethem their props.

(27:30):
Every time you think, oh, theycan't, like, upgrade a character
or introduce a new character,it's the end.
They gotta start wrappingthings up.
They throw something else inthere that you're just like, oh,
yeah, this is fuckingmemorable and iconic.
This is fucking.
The.
Ha ha ha ha.
That shit is fucking.
Wait, what.
What about your favorite line?
My favorite one?
Tell me.

(27:51):
You said.
You said it might be yourfavorite line of Stranger Things
of all time.
Yeah, it was good.
I wy.
I thought that was it.
The hahaha.
Oh, no, it is my.
No, no, I know exactly who it is.
Oh, my favorite line.
Yes.
It's like, Ashley Klein is a snitch.

(28:16):
Yo.
He goes from full meditationto like, yo, go, go, go, go.
Ashley Glad is a snitch, slamsthe door.
Yo, that is great.
It's great.
It's really.
It's really, really, really good.
Okay, we've.
We've had enough fun.
We got to talk about the heavy stuff.
So let's talk.

(28:37):
Let's talk about Ellen Hopper and.
And.
And then we'll.
We'll circle back to what'sgoing on with Holly.
But let's.
Let's talk about Ellen Hopperand their big moments this episode.
These two episodes.
Yeah.
Can I tell you that when.
When Hopper said, I love you,Jane, I was.

(29:00):
I was done.
Done.
I was like, I cannot.
I was starting to get angry.
Like, I cannot believe thatthey're going to do this to us.
In episode four.
I was sure Hopper was.
Was done.
I was sure that was the end.
And of course, it was a fake out.
So now I feel like Hopper'ssafe because I don't think you can
do a.
You.

(29:20):
You can't kill a person, bringthem back to life, then do it another.
Kill them again.
Yeah, I thought.
I thought he was a goner.
Yeah, I just.
I thought that their dialogue,the thank you for teaching me and
trusting me.
Heartbreaking.
But then also, when Hopper.
When Hopper said her I loveyou, Jane, I was like, this is what.

(29:43):
This is what we're here for.
The.
The.
The mystery, the magic, allthat stuff is really great, but the
characters and theirrelationships is the reason that
the stakes are so high.
Because you're in that moment,you're like, ella's about to lose
essentially everything, 100%,and she just got her dad back.

(30:04):
So it just.
It.
They got me.
They got me.
They got a good one on me.
It's the choice to call herJane instead of Elle that does it,
because it not only, like,let's be honest, like, Elle is, like,
short for 11 the boys came up with.
It's not her actual name thatshe was gonna have.

(30:24):
And the fact.
The fact that he, when giventhe choice to give her a name, used
the name that her motherwanted to give her and put inside
the articles and stuff, like,trying to get her kid back and say,
okay, we'll name her Jane Hopper.
It's actually, like, really powerful.
And I think, like, it justspeaks to, like, his love of her

(30:45):
and, like, who she is.
And it was.
Yeah, what she said wasbeautiful, too.
I. I love their.
I love their stuff.
This even, like, before we getto this episode where she's cleaning
his wound and he.
He's all like, how did youlearn to do this?
And she's like, Max, you know, like.
And she gives him, like, thewalkthrough of what Max taught her.
And just, like, everything,like, leading up to this, there's

(31:07):
this, like, kind of, like,process of, again, trust.
Like, the trust that we'vebeen talking about this whole run
of episodes is like, he'slearning to, like, trust her to be
who she is, because, let'sface it, Elle has really, since coming
through what she did inside the.

(31:27):
What I.
You know, the Nina project andcoming out, she has earned that.
I mean, she.
In a lot of ways, she is awhole new, like, kind of version
of herself.
And I think that Hopper'sstill relating to her in some ways,
because he was in Russiaduring all that as the old version
of herself.
Even though he's giving moreroom, there's more room to be given.

(31:48):
So I'm glad that they.
They had that moment.
And it's very fascinating whathappens on the end of that.
I don't understand what hisplan was.
I don't know what he.
So this whole time, your plan was.
He was.
He was gonna blow up Vecna?
Like, I don't.
I don't understand.
I'm.
I was like, I don't.
And this is what I was talkingabout in our last episode, which

(32:08):
is that Elle and Will are the experts.
They have the most experiencewith both this villain and with the
upside down.
So why Hopper thought that hewas gonna blow Vecna up.
Yeah.
Is.
Is crazy.
They already tried that.
I don't, like, lit him onfire, blew him up, pushed him out

(32:30):
a window, like in.
I don't understand.
I mean, like.
L pushed him out to anotherdimension as it.
In.
In his mind, while they werealso battling in the real world.
Like, how did he think blowinghim up was gonna be?
Blowing him up was not gonna work.
Like, that was not gonna be athing that worked.
So it's crazy.
I don't know.

(32:50):
I don't get it.
I think that Hopper, at theend of the day, just refuses to do.
To lose another daughter.
He's just not gonna do it.
He's gonna take whateverextreme measures he can to make sure
that he doesn't lose L again,because he's been separated from
her multiple times at this point.

(33:11):
And so I think that's what itkind of demonstrates.
But once again, Hopperworkshops this point, and they.
They hit on that, too.
And I think.
I think, like, it's reallypowerful when he actually goes into
the story about Sarah and toreally go into, like, what it means,
and she gets it right away, oryou think, like, I'm not gonna.
She doesn't Fully taken.

(33:33):
I think l. That he's trying to.
She does take in.
He's trying to protect her,but she also interprets it.
You don't think I'm gonna win.
And that's, like, hertakeaway, which hits back to what
you were saying, that she's soeager to have this battle that he's.
That that's where her braingoes right away.
And I think we got to keep aneye on that because she's really,

(33:56):
really pushing for it.
And I. I think.
I think Elle.
I think El also has thisattitude that it's up to her and
her alone.
And it's not.
There's a whole team of peoplewho actually can do quite a bit of
damage.
To Vecna's plans.

(34:18):
Now, can any of them fight him?
You know, one to one?
No.
I mean, now Will probably.
Well, I don't know.
Maybe Will can, but.
But they can help her.
And I don't think she alwayssees it that way.
I think she often tries to dothings on her own.
She's a little bit of a lonewolf, and that's probably from spending

(34:41):
so much time in the lab by herself.
Who'S like, yeah, right, right.
El spent five years in thatlab by herself, is the only kid before
she found friends.
And now at the end of thisepisode, she has two powered up allies.

(35:04):
Well, we don't know if Kali is friendly.
We have to assume, you know,we don't.
We don't really know what themilitary's been doing to Kali, but
we.
We end this.
This volume one ends withhaving three superheroes.
Three is better than one.
Better than one.
And it really hits to that.

(35:25):
That theory that's beenfloating around.
You know, it just.
The wound is so.
The.
The.
The.
The wound is so freaking freshfrom all of the freaking.
L plus R equals J.
Like shit from Game of Thrones.
Like, it just.

(35:46):
It hurts my soul a little bit,like, when I see these kind of theories,
like, with the rolling of thedice, that was like the 20.
And so it's like, you know, 11plus 8 plus 1 equals the 20 to defeat
Vecna.
But it does feel like having three.
It's like.
I've been thinking about thisa lot.
I've been thinking a lotabout, like, having a three.

(36:08):
What that means to be able totry to defeat them is it is the one
that Will can harness Vecna'spowers is the one that Henry Krill
will somehow be able to, like, turn.
Vecna good by them travelingthrough his mindscape or not Vecna
good, but, like, kind ofovercome the evil of Vecna inside

(36:31):
of himself.
I haven't really thought thatmuch about it because I don't think
we have enough information.
So.
Yeah, I just don't.
I don't.
We don't know.
What.
Where Kali's been.
Where her state of.
What her state of mind is.
Is she in good shape?
Did the military strip her powers?

(36:51):
We don't really know what'sgoing on with her and with Will.
From what we've seen ininterviews, Will's power is entirely
channeled from Vecna.
Yeah.
So.
But I don't think they'vequite fully told that story.
I think they've done a goodjob of saying that proximity matters.

(37:13):
He's like a receptor.
But I don't think that.
I think that when you power upa character who was otherwise normal
and then you give them power,you have to then test the limits
of that power on screen.
So I think they will do that.
But I. I'm not getting.
I'm not.
I'm trying not to overthinkthe roles that Will.

(37:36):
Kali, and El will have.
As a trio, because I. I preferto just look at Will and El separately,
based on what we know aboutthem as characters and based on what
we understand about how powerworks in.
Within this universe.

(37:56):
So what we learned from Willgaining his powers.
Was that he was able to dothat through the same process that
Elle was able to power up andfight Vecna and also bring Max back
to life, which was throughaccessing her happy memories.

(38:17):
Yeah.
So beyond that, we don't know.
We also don't know if Kaliknows has that information yet.
Right.
When we last saw her, she wastelling El to use her memories.
That made her angry.
I agree.
So I haven't really thought,like, what the three of them together
can means.
Thematically.

(38:38):
I'm not there yet.
I think we need more information.
I'm a little.
And we can talk more in thespoilery section about.
I'm a little.
I have concerns about Will and L.
Arc's totally.
But, like, I haven't reallythought through the three of them
together in that meaningfulway other than to be like, fuck,

(39:00):
yeah.
I think I'm with the fuck yeah.
What I want to see in thesecond half is I don't think Kali's
back.
And I think this is why Ialways said that the Lost Sister
episode and we always talkabout that was important.
I don't think she's back because.
She has a role to maybe evenface to face, fighting Vecna that
way.
I think she's back to.

(39:23):
To empower and position thelast part of L's mission, in my opinion,
the last part of what Elle'sgonna do and whatever that is.
I definitely think that Kaliwould be more like, hey, I'm here
to help Elle to whatever pieceof information and.
Or things she needs to.
To do the next step in, like,what it's going to take.
And maybe some of that will beslowing her down from running headlong

(39:45):
into this challenge and notthinking through how she's going
to really approach It.
Yeah, I, I don't.
I think we'll have to see.
I. I think if Kali's not hereto fight, then.
That in some ways will be amiscalculation in terms of.
Because like.
So I think Kali's only realbenefit to the story at this point,

(40:06):
this late in the game.
I think if they wanted Kali tobe the type of character that continued
to help El grow in a certainway, then they should have brought
her back in season three or four.
I think at this point I'm mostinterested in how Kali can contribute
to defeating Vecna.
But that's like my personal preference.

(40:26):
I prefer not to continue to godown the path of El's.
I think we've done almost toomuch else.
Self discovery at this point.
Like, I'm.
I'm actually fine if, ifthere's no.
There's no more of that.
Like, what I'm curious aboutis what's Kali's relationship to

(40:47):
Henry Creel?
I would love to see thatbecause my.
I've.
I've been really bullish aboutmy theory that Henry approached Kali
first before El.
I just want, at this point,selfishly, I kind of want that confirmed.
I just found that theirconversation and how.

(41:07):
How they both tried to tell Elto use her powers was too similar
for coincidence.
I, like Lucas, do not believein coincidences.
So that for me personally,that's a.
Like, if they don't answerthat, I actually think it's fine.
Story wise.
I don't think it.
The story hinges on that, butI would love to know personally,
does she have a relationship to.

(41:31):
Henry in any way?
And I think the fastest routeto get her on board is to.
Is yes, she has won.
Yeah, I think.
I think that's part of how shewill serve the fight, though I don't
necessarily.
And I think her powers willcome into play for sure.
But I definitely think thatlike, like kind of what we've been

(41:52):
talking about for a while onthe pod is just like kind of like
the heroine's journey, thehero's journey, the story arc.
And I kept.
We kept talking about likethat and you and I have talked offline
and online about the.
The assistance from thegoddess at the end of like the return.
And the reality of it is, isthat I think like those pieces of

(42:14):
information that El doesn'thave about Henry, about the context,
about all of that, it's kindof what I'm getting at is like where
I see Kali really coming into.
To play along with her powersis giving that information for that
final ascension on El'smission of hopefully defeating Vecna,
we'll see how the story ends.
But what I think willeventually end with her defeating

(42:36):
like Vecna in some kind ofway, whether that be through losing
her powers like we've spokenabout before, sacrificing herself.
Maybe not.
I hope not.
That's not really what I wantto see or some other way for her
doing it and then coming on there.
Maybe that's it.
But I do think Kali servesthat purpose of coming back into
the story from empowering herin the first place, to learn new

(42:59):
things about her powers atfirst time out of the lab and then
at the end bringing her backto this place of like, okay, this
is how you're going to usewhat I understand about Henry and
my powers and all these things.
And maybe she was the firstperson that Henry tried to get to
leave the lab to basically usethis information to.
To defeat Vecna.

(43:19):
I think that's where this isfor me.
It feels like it's headingthat way.
I would be surprised if shedoesn't play some part in empowering
her through some level ofinformation that like, almost like
the same kind of role as likethe freaking.
In Atla, the turtle thatprovides him with the information

(43:41):
on how he can defeat Ozai.
I'm not saying that that won'tmean Kali won't fight.
I'm just saying that Els needsthis final piece of information to
beat the actual Big Bad.
In my opinion.
I think what.
What's likely is in.
In typical Stranger Things fashion.

(44:01):
Pieces of information thatwill all contribute to this will
come from different places.
And so I also.
I think a lot of thatinformation is going to come from
Max and Holly or Max or Holly.
I.
We don't really know.
We like.
I kind of like the team upthere, but we're not really sure
how that's going to play out.
But the fact that Max isrooting around in Henry's memories

(44:24):
and the fact that we know howimportant memories are to this story.
Max has traveled through.
One of Henry's worst memories.
And all of these memories thatare like, of him doing horrible things
and she's seen one snippet ofwhat could possibly be a good memory,

(44:45):
which is the.
The high school being inHawkins high school in 1959.
And I. I think that's acurious thing to show.
And so what if Max and.
Or Holly can unearth morememories that are positive now that

(45:07):
I don't.
I don't want to talk too muchabout the.
That play.
Yeah, because.
Some of it is an Easter eggfor the first shadow play.
So we'll talk about that inthe spoiler section.
But I do want to know, becauseit is on screen that, that the play
Oklahoma, the performance ofOklahoma, that is being discussed

(45:31):
is on November 6, 1959.
So it's the same date thatWill went missing.
Just know, 20 plus years inthe past.
So I think that's significant.
But I think there's going tobe a combination of things that come
together to help defeat vna.

(45:51):
I'm not really.
Super worried about vna.
I'm more worried about theMind Flare.
And so I have.
I. I think.
Honestly, this is.
This is crazy speculation, butI. I actually kind of think that
they might have to pull thisoff in some way.
I think that they have to turnVecna and fight the Mind Flayer.

(46:12):
And so I think that, like,what we could see in episodes Volume
two, which is episodes five,six and seven, is that turn.
And then episode eight, thefinale, would be.
Other.
Isolating the Mind Flayer to.
To its own dimension andclosing the gate for good.

(46:37):
Or.
Eliminating the Mind Flayerand Vecna at the same time.
And I also think that.
I think it's gonna be like areal group effort.
We're gonna need all three ofour powered up people, plus Max,
plus maybe Holly, plus maybethe other kids.

(46:58):
Right.
You're gonna have.
You know, the story thatthey're telling us here is it Will,
by being connected to the hivemind, got powers.
We don't know how those powerscame to be at this point, why they're.
Why they're manifesting now.
Is that just internally forWill or something else happening
here?

(47:19):
But, but it's possible wecould end up with will plus 12 kids.
Yeah, no, I agree with that.
I agree that the kids could play.
It could play a part.
That the kids that they'retaking in could.
Could definitely play a part.
And I agree with.
Yeah, I think, I think it'sgoing to be a collective effort.
I don't think there's any one person.

(47:39):
Yeah.
Elle by herself.
And I think they.
They're setting that up.
I think Lucas is seeing itvery clearly when he says the whole
thing about Elle's amazing,but she's going to need all of us,
the whole party.
Yeah, he's like pleading toMax, but I think it's also for us
to understand that this isgoing to be a fight that's going
to take everybody.
And I think, like, yeah, Iagree I totally agree with that.
I almost would wonder, too, atthis point.

(48:03):
I mean, I know that they'vebeen kind of.
Leading up to Elle fightingthe big bad, but I also kind of feel
like Will taking out Vecnawould also be satisfying.
I mean, he.
He was the one who hekidnapped, so it would be sad.
I think, definitely for Will,it'd be something like some.
There'd be a level ofsatisfaction, in my opinion.

(48:24):
I like that, too.
I think they'll play off ofsome of the things that they've been
laying the tracks for.
Like, we.
Like, we've been talkingabout, like, with Kali's name and
its meaning.
I. I'm interested to see ifthey lean into that a little bit.
I think that would beinteresting since we were talking
about Kali.
And just for our audience thatdoesn't know, it's like, that's in

(48:44):
Hinduism, the goddess ofliberation and also destruction.
And so there's like.
And one of the most powerfulgoddesses in that, in that particular
faith.
So I think, like, it'd beinteresting to see if they could
lean into that.
I don't know that they willmaybe just do symbolism.
I don't think they have to godeep into, like, another, like, kind
of storyline, but it'd beinteresting to see, like, if somehow,

(49:06):
some way, it's representedinside of, like, the actions that
she takes to be able with herpowers to help them.
Because she is creating quitea bunch of, like, I mean, her having
illusions with someone who'slike, where people needing to get
into people's minds is afascinating power for them to have
at their disposal right now.
So I think that is really,really cool.

(49:27):
Let's talk a little bit aboutWill and this big moment that he
had.
Yeah.
And how they laid thegroundwork for that.
So we talked in our previousepisode about Robin and the Robin
and Will team up.
How do you.
How do you feel about how thatall played out?
I really liked it.
I really.
I really liked it because onmultiple levels.

(49:50):
I'll start with just, youknow, Will's flirting with Mike in
that moment.
As Mike first says to him,hey, we're going to need somebody
with superpowers, you know, up here.
And Mike kind of, like,intuitively, like, suggests that
maybe he's insightful in that moment.

(50:12):
Like, well, your mom's notthat big.
Like, were you controlling theDemogorgon, like, or was the Demogorgon
or you inside the Demogorgonjust observing?
Because your mom probablydidn't stop the Demogorgon.
Right.
And so he's starting toinsinuate you may have powers.
And I think in that moment,you're starting to see all the groundwork

(50:33):
that they laid from him seeingthrough the Demogorgon's eyes when
he goes in against themilitary, seeing again when they're
about to attack.
Them in the barn.
And then his explanationaround being able to see through
Vecna's eyes who he's takingand the kids he's taking, all that

(50:55):
starts to really transpire.
And then he's out.
As Mike is giving him thislittle piece of information.
He is flirting with Mike.
And I think Robin sees kind oflike Mike's reaction to that and
walking away and how it is.
And it triggers something inRobin to say.

(51:16):
Something that has nothing todo with the powers but has everything
to do with what will unlockthem is that he has to really start,
you know, through her ownexperience, not look for the outside
validation or the answer insomebody else that being himself
is.
Is really within him and thatit, you know, stop.

(51:36):
She had to stop being soscared of who she really was.
And I thought that that hadmultiple layers of meaning.
Who he really is in how heidentifies in his sexual orientation,
who he really is for how hesees himself inside of this group
of friends, who he really isinside of this community that has

(51:59):
named him a zombie boy.
But ultimately also on allthose layers, things that he couldn't
communicate to Jonathan inthat touching scene the season before,
coming to terms with who hereally is as far as his ability to
connect and create and tomanipulate these powers that he has

(52:19):
connection to.
And he's been able to do it inother ways.
It doesn't just play out forwhat we see in this season.
I think it also plays outthrough him being able to use his
drawing skills to draw out thethings that he saw when he was in
the.
In the Spy, and all the thingsto painting when he's in California,
the things and the informationabout who the party is, who everybody

(52:43):
is, these are all things thatwe see little pieces of in Will,
but we've never seen him fully own.
And in that moment, with whatshe's able to say and then that all
coming back to him, he reallyowns it.
And going specifically back tothe Spy, which they reference as
an episode that we should watch.

(53:04):
I thought it was you and Italked about this a little bit.
I also think that it wasimmensely cool that the positive
memories that we referencedearlier in this episode are all the
positive memories that thepeople who were around him in that
episode were Saying what Mikesaid, what Joyce said, what Jonathan
said.
And I think that is.

(53:27):
It was a beautiful scene.
It's a, it's a coming of agestory, as you said, where self realization
and self actualization andrealizing and answering the question,
do you know who you are?
Is a central theme.
And I thought it was beautiful.
I think more than just himhaving powers, all of that culminating
in that way was beautiful.
And they've been building onthis memory piece since season one.

(53:52):
So I think it's one of the fewthings that I felt.
It's one of their biggestpayoffs of all the work they've put
in to this show in this story.
And I think it was beautiful.
And I just want to read whatRobin said because I was blown away,
honestly, by this writing.

(54:13):
Like I.
And I complained to youoffline that the, the dialogue has
been clunky in a lot of scenesin this season so far.
But this was not.
This was beautiful.
What, what she says.
And I'm just going to read thelast part of it.
I was looking for answers insomebody else, but I had all the

(54:34):
answers.
I just need to stop being sogoddamn scared.
Scared of who I really was.
Once I did that.
Oh, I felt so free.
It's like I could fly.
That's beautiful.
Like, I want every youngperson who gets stressed about how
many people like theirInstagram photo or how many.

(54:54):
How much validation they getwhen people, you know, double tap
on a video of them and say,you know, I.
Or leave a comment on theirsocial media.
I want them to be able to saythat validation is great and it's,
it's affirming in a lot ofways, but it's not the answer.

(55:15):
The answers are something wealready have have within ourselves
there.
It's looking at yourself veryclearly and seeing who you are, the
whole you, not just the pieceof you that you show the world, but
the whole you, all of you.
And loving it equally.
I think that is.
Is such a beautiful idea.

(55:37):
And it's one of the.
One of the things I love aboutthis show is those rich ideas are
scattered throughout theweirdness, the, like, the quirkiness,
the comedy.
But we don't usually get themthis early in the season.
So I'm like bracing for whatcomes next because I was like, this
was, this was a finale monologue.

(55:59):
Yeah.
Robin could have said this inthe finale and I would have been
like, that's deep.
So having it mid season, inthe mid sort of mid season finale,
phenomenal writing.
I, I loved the way this paid Off.
These are not the powers Ithought Will would have.
Yeah.
But I'm kind of happy I'm wrong.
Like, I, I don't care.

(56:21):
I don't want.
I don't care that the ideasthat I had for Will are not completely
right because I thought thatthe way that they built this up and
then revealed it wasabsolutely beautiful.
And I can't wait to see.
I can't wait for him and Elleto be on screen together again.
Yeah, I agree.
And I think that's why I thinklike, it's their, their story arcs

(56:44):
parallel each other so much.
Right.
Like when you think about likeRobin saying what she says to Will.
Happens like, like I, like, Ifeel like the stories are happening
like really close to each other.
It happens almost the same waythat Papa says to Elle that she would

(57:06):
need to fly.
And these ideas around flyingand ascension are really, really
close to like what I like I was.
And I, and I said I wouldreference this I wanted to.
Is like, there's a.
If anyone's interested in likesome of the stuff we've been talking
about with the hero's journey,there's this podcast that I listened
to recently called have Toga.
Will travel with thesephenomenal, like, you know, PhDs

(57:30):
that like they study story allthe time.
I really enjoyed theirconversation and I can even link
it inside of our show.
Notes about story and aboutElle's story, about Stranger things,
about the hero's journey andheroine's journey and about Lehman's.
Lehman's hero's journey.
And one of the stages in thatjourney is ascension.

(57:52):
And I just found that likethis idea that both of them will
have to.
That they could have thatfeeling if not literally flying,
which we're seeing El almostliterally fly.
That feeling of flying by,like reaching their full potential
of their gifts is.
Is part of that.
I feel like that ascensionstage of we're getting closer to

(58:12):
that ascension stage.
And I just think it's likecoming out of the rebirth of where
they.
They've come from.
And I just think it's beautiful.
I think the parallels in theirstories are beautiful.
Even though they havedifferent powers and they have different
connections to this story, I'mreally looking forward to how they
conclude this story with thetwo of them.
Even if it's heart wrenchingor painful or happy, whatever it

(58:34):
lands.
I think the way that they'vegotten to these points and drawing
these parallels has beenreally phenomenal in their journeys.
And like you said, this was agreat payoff.
It was Will's connection to that.
I felt just as strong as whenI saw, you know.
L come out of this situation.

(58:56):
Like, I think that's what I'mworried about for Will is Elle came
out empowered out of the Ninaproject and brought down a fucking
helicopter and then went tofight Vecna and then, like, lost
that fight and had.
So I think, like, there's thiskind of, like, I don't think we have
enough time for that tohappen, but I do think, like, there's
a way where you start to, youknow, you get these strong powers

(59:17):
and, like, maybe you overplayyour hand.
Let's see.
Let's.
Hopefully they don't.
Hopefully these two balance it out.
You know, since we've.
We've talked about Ellen Willso much, let's just give some of
the other characters who hadbig, big moments some of their due.
Steve Harrington.
Okay, come to the front.
Come to the front.

(59:38):
Steve Harrington.
Come to the front of the conversation.
If you're listening, I wouldlike you to.
To lock in.
Just because Dustin put a holein the top of your vehicle doesn't
mean that you trash thevehicle that your parents bought
you in the Upside Down.
Now, what are you going totell your parents about your car?
Okay, your car is in theUpside down.

(59:59):
Your car is crashed into aflesh wall in the Upside Down.
What do you think is going tohappen to the car, Steve?
Also, Nancy Wheeler.
Please don't you come up tothe front next.
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have a walk.
Still encourage Steve to doreckless shit.
Okay.

(01:00:19):
Dustin and Jonathan were bothlike, we're gonna die.
We're gonna die.
We're gonna die, we're gonna die.
Here's Nancy doing her.
Her, like, meme dark.
Kermit, do it.
No question.
No, it was awesome.
I'm glad.

(01:00:39):
I thought it was a cool scene.
We've seen parts of it in thesecond trailer that they dropped,
but that was really cool.
But I was like, I thought wewere beyond.
I thought we were going toworkshop our ideas from now on.
You guys have been doing so good.
You know what you just.
You know what you just did forme and talking about this.
Oh, God, indulge me for two seconds.

(01:01:04):
This is definitely giving mefreaking Empire Strikes Back Han
Solo vibes.
The arguing with Dustin andSteve is so much like Han and Leia
before they profess theirundying love for each other.
Like, it's like, so much.

(01:01:25):
Even down to them goingthrough the freaking Upside down
is like when they were goinginto hyperdrive and trying to.
It's crazy.
Like these guys really do lovethis 80s shit, this 70s 80s TV shit.
It feels very much like that.
Anyway, I've been trying toplace like why does this arguing
that Dustin and Steve doremind me of something so much?

(01:01:48):
And that was it.
You just helped me for some reason.
That little sequence unlockedit for me.
That's where I've seen this before.
It's a great sequence.
I love.
I loved.
Yeah, well, I mean, I'm gladthey made it right, because in any
moment I'm worried aboutpeople going out.
But it's great.
I just think it's so funnythat they just had no further plan.

(01:02:11):
We're gonna follow thedemagoring and then what y' all gonna
do?
What are they going to do when they.
So what's the next step ofthis plan?
So concerning.
Concerning that we're still making.
Poor life choices at this point.
This is dumber than keepingdart and I'm just putting it out.
Did they think that that thingwas gonna like lead them to Holly?

(01:02:31):
Like, oh, what does follow this?
Everybody?
Yeah, but then, but then like,okay, so it leads you to Holly.
What do you.
What happens then?
Right, exactly.
Because they know that theDemogorgons don't do anything that
like, like what do they.
Why does anybody stop and belike, hey, Will, when the Demogorgon
took you, what happened nextin the next six days?

(01:02:54):
Do you remember?
You got any recollection aboutwhen the Demogorgon snatched you?
What happened?
That would be a great starter.
I think that'd be a greatplace to start your plans.
So I, I don't, I don't knowwhat to say about that.
I just remembered we nevercircled back to Holly and Max.
Yeah.
Yeah, we should talk aboutthat for sure.

(01:03:14):
Poor Holly and Max.
Here's the thing about theseepisodes is it was just like reveal
after reveal.
I was like, oh my God, it's Max.
Oh my God, it's Kali.
Oh my God.
Will has powers.
So we will.
So let's do sort of broadstrokes of a wrinkle in time and

(01:03:37):
we won't talk about like howwe feel that it, it might be connected.
Going forward.
We'll leave that for a littlebit of spoilers.
But like, let's talk aboutlike the broad story and how it connects
to the story that we're.
We're watching on screen withMax and, and.

(01:03:58):
Holly.
Both stories come down to.
The fight against good and evil.
And forced conformity and howindividualism and individual people
of light can overcome thedarkness by being authentically Themselves.

(01:04:21):
That's what I think thesestories are talking about.
I think there's some.
I think, like, that's thebroad strokes of Wrinkle in Time.
Without going into all thespecifics of the story, I guess.
Broad.
Do you want to talk about,like, the summary of that story or
would you want to like.
Not the full summary?
I would.
I think Holly did most of iton screen.
So.
Yeah.
In A Wrinkle in Time, the maincharacter, Meg's father, has been

(01:04:42):
missing for over a year.
He's a science.
Both her parents are scientists.
Meg is kind of an awkward kid.
She.
She's not as smart as her parents.
She gets a lot of flack at school.
People want her to conform.
Right.
She's.
She's too much of whatever.
She has a brother who is youngand sensitive and who.

(01:05:05):
Who.
Is sensitive in a metaphysical sense.
Not just that he.
He's sensitive.
Like it a little bit.
How they kind of the way thatthey imply that Henry Creel and Will
are both kind of sensitivekids who pick up from other people,
you know, I think what.
What people would call, likean empath.

(01:05:25):
Right.
And they have a mysterious visitor.
I think you guys can guessthat's Mrs. Whatsit.
Who stops by their house andin the middle of a storm.
And she basically tells.
I'm.
I'm skipping multiple chaptersat this point just to get to the
point.
She and her friends basicallytell them that their father is being

(01:05:48):
held on a planet that is ruledby this dark cloud sort of force
called it.
And the name of the planet is Kamazots.
And so we'll leave it there.
Sort of like Meg has to figureMegan and her.
A friend of hers.
Well, a new friend of hers,Calvin and her brother travel to

(01:06:10):
Camazotz to try to find her dad.
And what they find is exactlywhat you just said, which is it forced
conformity.
And this like, overlord.
That it keeps everything under control.
Essentially.
He.
Essentially this.
This entity says that theproblems that have faced the world

(01:06:32):
are because people areindividuals and don't all do the
same things at the same timein the same way.
And so Kamazat is a placewhere all these people, they do all
the same things at the sametime in the same way, in different
ways in some form or fashion.
Right.

(01:06:52):
And so it's a very much likeconformist culture where everything
is ran and overseen by this entity.
It.
Right.
So that's.
That's.
Yeah.
And you know, as, you know, itfits very well.
It fits extremely well.

(01:07:13):
You.
One could argue, depending onhow they land this and how they use
it or don't use it.
That it could be too on the nose.
One could argue that.
But it definitely fits thetheme of, like, you know, stranger
things, you know, memory, howthat plays out, like, pushing against,
like, you know, this idea thatEddie kind of spoke about, about

(01:07:35):
forced conformity and uniquelybeing yourself and even what Dustin
is pushing for in thisparticular series, so in this particular,
like, season, so.
And sort of, to me, beyond theplot and themes that the Duffer Brothers
could pull from it, I thinkit's more important in terms.

(01:07:56):
Not more important, butequally important in terms of a reminder
that children need these typesof stories to help them contextualize
the real world.
And feeling powerless withintheir world.
Like when Holly is talking toMax about the story Max has not read.

(01:08:21):
She is so excited to talkabout Meg.
Right?
Because she see Holly sees herself.
It allows herself to imagineherself as a character like Meg.
Meg feels like an outsider.
Meg is anxious because herfather is missing.
Meg actually has threebrothers, and two of them are kind

(01:08:43):
of annoying.
And there's even a point inthe book where she says, well, at
least, you know, my youngestbrother loves me.
I don't remember if she saysunconditionally, but that's kind
of.
He loves me no matter what.
Right.
And so Holly, a kid who isstruggling with bullying, is.
Is Feels othered as well.

(01:09:04):
It seems like she has a prettygood relationship with Nancy and.
And Mike and with her mom.
But it'll.
These stories, just like.
Dungeons and Dragons, allowthese kids to put a language to the
things that they'reexperiencing and to imagine themselves
as heroes.
And I think that's reallyimportant, too, that regardless of

(01:09:28):
what story it is, a lot ofthese stories are similar.
They have similar themes aboutbeing true to yourself, love and
connection.
But those.
There's a reason the kids lovethese stories, because it allows
them to find home in a fantasyworld when the real world seems quite
scary a lot of the time.

(01:09:49):
I agree.
I think it's really cool.
I think it's really cool to see.
Can we talk about one funnymoment from their encounter, which
is Max telling the story aboutNancy stopping Mike from getting
the orange Mohawk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
That was great.
It was so Max.
I was like, my girl's unchanged.
She may have been invited as my.

(01:10:11):
But it was such a Max story to tell.
I really loved it.
And I also loved that Hollywas like, what color was the mohawk?
Yeah, exactly.
I love how she describes Maxin the beginning, too.
Like, always Walks with herWalkman, like put like always has
her Walkman on, blah, blah, blah.
Like, you know, like she knewshe had experienced that.

(01:10:33):
It's pretty fascinating.
Yeah, no, it's good, it's good.
They gave us, they gave usenough to, to say, okay, these people
aren't seeing each other forthe first time.
Time.
They're like, you know,they're just having this kind of
level of interaction for thefirst time.
So I thought that was.
I thought that was, that wasreally, really, really cool.
You know, I think we want toleave it there for the tie ins to.

(01:10:59):
Wrinkle in Time, memory andall that, in the hopes that we won't.
If you want to read Wrinkle inTime, you can read it.
If you don't want to know howwe think those things tie in into,
like, where this story may begoing, it won't spoil anything for
you.
This is all speculation on our point.
Like we said, we haven't seenscreeners, but there's some pretty
clear threads that we can kindof see based on both stories.

(01:11:22):
So we'll save that.
But I do want to.
Let's.
Let's talk a little bit aboutDr. K. We talked, we touched on her
a little bit last episode, butI think, like, she's a central figure
and that they, she somehow,through using K's powers or some
way, has figured out a way toneutralize L's powers.

(01:11:43):
So we're assuming that they'reusing K's powers?
We don't know yet.
I'm not sure.
I looked at this so many times.
It's really unclear becauseit's like they wanted us to think
that what was ever behind thatdoor was a Kryptonite.
Yeah.
But like, and, and the sounddid stop when Hopper went behind

(01:12:04):
the door.
Yeah, but it seems like theywere maybe using the same sound against
Kali to keep her from usingher powers.
So I'm not, I'm still not sure.
Is this, is this just radio waves?
I saw.
I saw a tick tock months andmonths ago.
I think it's by the samecreator I talked about on one of

(01:12:27):
our previous podcasts, whichher name is Pass in a Panic, where
she talked about using radiowaves to recreate the chip they put
into Henry to keep him fromusing his powers that they found
a way to weaponize to makethat something that they could get

(01:12:48):
through frequencies.
I don't remember her wholetheory, but I think that could be
what's happening.
But that's not really thequestion you asked.
We were talking about Dr. K.And I really don't like her.
Bring back Dr. Owens.
Yeah, we want Dr. Owens.
We want Dr. Owens.
This lady is so cruel and so careless.

(01:13:09):
And she doesn't even know whyshe really.
Like what.
What's really going on.
Like, she doesn't know aboutVecna because she doesn't understand
what Hopper and Elle are doing.
She doesn't know that Elle isdoing something evil because she
even admits that to Sullivan.
That Elle might want the kidsto protect them.

(01:13:30):
So she's just pursuing Ellebecause it's her mission or because
of the science of it or whatever.
But like we.
She just.
She's so careless.
The fact that she was willingto use these kids as bait.
If Will wasn't there, if.
If Will, Joyce and Mike werenot there, what would have happened

(01:13:51):
to those kids?
Oh, they would have been slaughtered.
They would have been.
They would have been takenright away.
It would have been rough.
I don't understand.
Yeah, it was a.
It was a bad plan on her part.
She's like, using.
And the kids got snatched.
The kids that he was going totake got snatched anyway.
But the other kids probablywould have died.
So.
I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to interrupt you.
I just know I got really angry.

(01:14:13):
I was like.
When you see the carnagethat's left after Will kills the
remaining Demogorgons, you'relike, well, thank God they were there.
Because what if thosedemagorings went into the.
The base and killed the restof the kids?
Right?
Right.
And.
And.
And there's, you know, this.
This.
She's like, you know how I'vebeen looking for you?

(01:14:33):
And she's sending off thisalarm to stop her from being able
to use her powers.
And she's threatening withsome weird creature that we don't
know what is like, she's likestrangling Hopper to me.
It's like you're not.
You're like, not asking theright questions.
You're not even like, takingthe right precautions.
It's like you're justautomatically jumping to conclusions.

(01:14:54):
And one of the conclusions shejumps to is why would you risk 11
to get to this other.
The other one?
Like, what don't I know?
What don't I know is whatshe's asking a lot, lady.
You don't know a fucking lot.
Like you don't know a wholelot of what's going on.
And.
Right.
Maybe if you had askedquestions instead of just using force.

(01:15:17):
Right.
Exactly.
Like, if Sullivan hadn't beenrunning around trying to kill Elle.
And capture her for the lasttwo seasons, then maybe Elle would
have been happy to share whatinformation she had.
And I also am like, you guyshave Owens.
We saw that.
So why didn't you.
Why didn't you just listen to him?
And where is Owens?

(01:15:37):
Like, I mean, are we gonnajust leave our guy in the freaking
desert in the middle of the.
That's where we're gonna lastsee Owens.
Like, we.
Where is Owens right now?
Like, can we find out whereOwens is?
Like, somebody get somebody onthe phone.
We need to know.
We need to know where Owens is.
I.
They.
I do think that they need to.
They need to tell us whathappened to Owens.

(01:15:58):
I don't.
I know I've seen a lot ofpeople say, like, oh, what happened
to Enzo slash Dimitri, Sl.
Yuri slash Argy?
I actually don't care aboutArgyle because he just went home.
Like, you can write that your.
Yourself, you don't need themto tell you what happened there.
Argyle was from California.
He went back home.

(01:16:19):
Especially when they startedtalking about quarantining and locking
down the whole city.
He probably was like, I needto get back to my family.
Yeah, we have to.
You know, a lot of people arelike, well, wasn't the city on quarantine
right away?
We don't know that.
Like, we don't know howquickly the quarantine went into
effect.
My guess is Argyle got on aplane the next day and left, actually.
And actually, we don't knowhow long.
But we do know that Robinreferences that the DJ that used

(01:16:43):
to work at the radio stationgot out there super, super duper
fast on the first plane, smoking.
So obviously people were leaving.
Right.
People were able to leave.
So my other question.
The.
My other issue is with Dimitri and.
And Yuri.
They probably just stayed in Alaska.

(01:17:04):
So I don't really need any resolution.
But Owens.
I need a resolution.
Like, what happened to Owens?
Like, he.
He was alive the last time wesaw him, so.
And he's quite important toElle's story.
So what happened to him?
And into Will's story.
Right?
Yeah.
So.
So I think we need to knowwhat happened to him.
There was something else Iwanted to raise too, that was important.

(01:17:27):
This episode.
Why do you think Henry gaveHolly the cassette?
You and I have talked about this.
I think I like your theory thebest of anyone I've spoken to.
I think that Vecna did not see coming.
The things around music,because that was a theory that Nancy

(01:17:50):
and Robin found out by goingto the mental institution.
And so he didn't have thatkind of connect.
Connective tissue as to.
Because, remember, he passedout when the mind flare did.
When all that happened withhis family.
His dad may have known or hadsome knowledge of it because he could
keep hearing the song, but most.

(01:18:12):
He didn't have that.
He had that blind spot.
So I think your theory thatwe've been talking about and kind
of workshopping, that he wantsHolly to connect her a good memory
to being captive in the Creelhouse in his mind so that she can't
use music to escape, isactually a really good one.

(01:18:32):
I think that he's plantinglike a.
Almost like a poison pill oflike, hey, enjoy your time in this
house.
Here's the music.
Dance away.
So that when she goes to playthat song, the thing that she'll
be thinking about is dancinginside the very place that is a prison.
And so I think, like, that ishim trying to plant a poison pill.

(01:18:53):
So I like your theory with that.
I think it's.
I think it's.
It makes sense.
We'll see if that's how itplays out.
But I think it makes a lot ofsense to me.
Yeah, I think.
Obviously, I'm not sure, but Ithink that's the only thing that
makes sense to me.
Otherwise, you know, there's alot of people theorizing that Mr.
Whatsit slash Henry isactually trying to.

(01:19:19):
Help the kids.
And I think that.
That I don't blame them fortheorizing that.
The only reason I don'ttheorize it, like there's a Henry
Creel inside of Vecna who'strying to help is because the person
that we see chasing Max to thecave is Henry Creel in his human
form.
And I just think that's messy storytelling.

(01:19:39):
So I don't think they would doit that way.
So I think that this is all amanipulation tactic to get to kind
of like, inoculate Hollyagainst being reached by this particular
song, at least.
But let me ask you a question,because it is.

(01:20:00):
So it's Henry Krillin, hishuman form.
As you were saying.
I was thinking about this.
One thing that I noticed aboutHenry Creel with the kids is that
version of Henry Creel iswearing a suit and glasses where
the version that's chasingafter Max is wearing different clothing
and.
He'S wearing the orderlyHawkins massacre.

(01:20:21):
Yeah.
Right.
So is it possible that there'smultiple versions of Henry in his
own mind that, like, maybe arefighting working different angles
of this, a positive and a negative?
I'm not.
I Don't like that theory as much.
I think you're right.
It could get a little messy,but maybe there is.
I hope.
I sincerely hope not, becauseI just think that's bad storytelling.

(01:20:44):
Yeah.
I think that when you'retelling a story like this, the visual
cues have to be really consistent.
And I've seen with other scifi stories where they're not consistent
and the audience is like, youtricked us.
That's not right.
So once he is shown in hishuman form pursuing Max, I don't

(01:21:08):
think that we should then turnaround and say, not that human form.
Just kidding.
Here's another human form thatyou've never seen before, except
in this context.
Like, I don't.
I don't think like that.
Is he.
He has his vecna hand, right?
Is that right that he's in the order.
As he starts to approach Macthe Cave, he grows the vecna hand,

(01:21:31):
but he's initially.
Doesn't have it.
Doesn't have it.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, I think.
I think it's interestingbecause I do think the glasses mean
something if they.
They could use those.
Interestingly enough, theymade a choice there maybe based on
some of the Wrinkle in Time stuff.
But we'll talk about that in aspoiler section.
But I do think that's possible.

(01:21:52):
Yeah, it's fascinating stuff.
I do think that's my take onthe music.
I know that you mentioned.
We've talked about this.
What would your song be?
I was supposed to ask you.
I know I flipped it on you.
There you go.
Yeah, you flipped it.
You just turned around.

(01:22:13):
So weird.
I know this because I'vethought about it extensively.
If I'm only picking one song,it's Always Be My Baby by Mariah
Carey.
Huh.
That's a good one.
It just reminds me of seventh grade.
Yeah, I really enjoy, like, itjust reminds me of a very carefree

(01:22:33):
time in my life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's a good one.
That's a good one, huh?
Yeah.
I've been thinking about my song.
It's so.
There's so many.
I would probably say, like, ifI had to listen to one song that
would, like, remind me not tobe taken over by a demon and to,

(01:22:56):
like, come back to life.
It would probably be somethingBob Marley related.
And it would probably be.
Tough one.
Small acts.
I would play small acts.

(01:23:17):
I think, like.
Like, it would remind.
It was like, you know, like.
Like it has a lot of goodmessages in there.
And I think, like, it wouldremind me.
Oh, yeah.
I'm being Taken over by demon.
Like, if you're a big tree, Iam the small act ready to chop you
down.
I'll probably play Bob Marley.
Bob Marley is a good.
Pick me up anytime that I'm.
That I'm dealing with, like,bad shit.

(01:23:39):
So, like, it's good.
So.
Yeah.
All right.
So if Vecna comes for you, Iknow what to play now.
Yeah.
Let's see.
Let's hope it works.
Oh, my gosh.
Please, Vecna, don't come for me.
That would be.
That would be ideal.
That would be ideal not toeven have to play those songs.
Has he overcome the song thing?
Maybe he's figured out a wayto stop these song things from working.

(01:24:04):
I do think Vecna.
It's very likely that Vecna isreacting to them and responding the
same way that the.
The group has changed their tactics.
I think it's very likely thathe's changing his.
But we just don't know yet.
There's still just so many.
They gave us so much in fourepisodes, and yet I still have so

(01:24:28):
many questions about even thepotential for where this is the story
could go.
Yeah, me too.
So I'm excited for volume two.
More excited, I think.
Like, I thought the first fourepisodes was just gonna be like,
re.
Acclimating us to be back in Hawkins.
Like, I didn't think that theywere gonna do these levels of reveals

(01:24:49):
in the first four.
Yeah, it's kind of crazy.
So we can only imagine what'scoming in the next three and then
one in the.
I mean, they were like, we'regonna take your whole holiday season
just, like.
Just ruin all your holidays.
Let me tell you, if they haveme crying on New Year's Eve over
fictional characters, it's.

(01:25:09):
I'm gonna.
Me and the duffers are gonna be.
Fighting for real, like, riot.
It's gonna.
It's.
It's.
And it's.
It's totally possible to.
Hopefully.
Hopefully.
It's.
Hopefully.
It's tears of joy andeveryone's victorious.
Although they have alreadyplanted the seeds.
Like when.
When Lucas is like, hopefully,I'm coming back here in a week or
two and just telling you thatwe've defeated Vecna.

(01:25:31):
But I was like, oh, no, notthe monologuing, please.
You're setting up the.
There's no way this is goingto happen this way now.
Anyway.
So what themes.
What themes we want to call out?
I think we.
We've talked about the wrinklein time stuff.
I think we've talked about.

(01:25:54):
You know, fantasy as a. Yeah, we've.
We've already talked aboutalmost all of them.
I mean, we didn't really talkabout the trauma loop.
Which comes up so consistentlyin Stranger Things.
I actually think that we.
We've talked about in otherepisodes, which is that just that,
like, people get stuck in trauma.
Yeah.

(01:26:14):
And that can work in a lot of ways.
Like Max having to relive herown trauma in the memory maze.
The Vecna having this prisonthat he's.
He.
He lives in, which is his own memories.
You know, obviously, like, ifwe go all the way back to season
two, Elle's mother is stuck ina trauma loop.

(01:26:38):
That was.
I think the first time we usedthat phrase on this podcast was when
we were talking about Terryand being stuck in.
And Terry and Will being kindof both stuck in a loop of trauma.
So I think there's lots of people.
Lots of evidence from the showof people getting stuck, like Billy,

(01:26:59):
for instance, and not beingable to come out of that loop, but
there's now some evidence ofpeople being able to overcome it.
Right.
So, like, Will is actuallyfinding a way to be empowered by
an experience that he had.
That was traumatizing.
So I think it's going tocontinue to come up.

(01:27:19):
I think it's one of the main.
I think one of the main themesof this show is not allowing trauma
to define you.
Yeah, I can see that for sure.
And so I think that that'sgonna continue to come up for a lot
of our characters.
And yet I think sometimes thewriting leans into trauma being defining.

(01:27:41):
Like, I think showing Hopperflashing back to his daughter's death,
again.
Was a choice.
I'm not sure it's a choice Iwould have made as a writer here.
I think, like, I think it wasboth a fake out moment.
Like, oh, they're showing us a montage.
This can't be good.
But I think that actually itcan work against sometimes the themes

(01:28:05):
that I think they've done agood job of building about building
up, which is getting stuck inletting trauma define you.
And Hopper has now flashbackto that scene or talked about it
so many times that it'sbecoming a little bit too tied to
his identity for my liking.
So anyway, I think that'sreally the only theme that we didn't

(01:28:28):
touch on while we were justtalking naturally.
Yeah.
And I think we talked aboutall the things that we learned from
this episode.
Yeah, I think we learned a lot about.
I learned a lot about wormholes.
Just, like, I mean, I guessErica didn't need to learn.
She was answering all the questions.
So she had already learned.

(01:28:48):
But, yeah, we learned a lotabout that.
We learned about, like, wherethe center of the lab is.
Where the center of thatcircle is, Is the Hawkins Lab.
You know, I find that it's sofascinating that the Hawkins Lab
is at the center of that.
I think just based on what weknow about Dr. Brenner experimenting

(01:29:12):
at that lab on kids.
And now Vecna's trying to get12 kids and, like, he's almost, like,
doing exactly the same thingthat Papa did.
So there were 13 children inthe original project.
Right.
Plus one.
While there were 12 kids, I think.
Plus one.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, yeah, I think he'strying to rebuild that original project,

(01:29:38):
but.
But differently.
Yeah, fascinating.
So.
Yeah, I think.
I think we've touched on allof that.
So do we want to go into anysort of, like, predictions?
What do you think is coming?
So I think.
I think we should go roll intothe spoiler.

(01:30:00):
Okay, let's roll into the spoiler.
Because I think it's hard todo the predictions without talking
through the spoilers.
Okay.
All right.
So if you don't want to bespoiled, if you don't want to know
any of the.
We're going to talk aboutWrinkle In Time spoilers, things
around the Dark Phoenix,things around with the play, like,

(01:30:24):
all kinds of stuff.
If you don't want to, now'sthe time to leave.
If you want some more insightand information that could potentially
spoil those episodes, maybe wait.
Wait till the episodes are alldone, come back to this section.
That's totally fine.
So we'll give you a minute.
Yeah.
And let's talk about the actual.
What I think will be thespoiler, which is the stuff from

(01:30:46):
the play.
We'll talk about that later.
Last.
So if people want to hearabout a Wrinkle in Time, which is
like, speculation, spoiler, or the.
The stuff about the DarkPhoenix, that's all speculation.
But we know.
We know that the play iscanon, and so that would.
That there's a potentialthere, that.
That we could actually spoilthe show by talking about the play,

(01:31:10):
because there's.
A potential that some of thoseelements of the play will be in this
season for sure.
Right.
So.
So we'll leave that to thevery end.
Was there anything that youwanted to talk about with A Wrinkle
in Time that we didn't say inthe non spoiler section?
Yeah, I mean, if we're goinginto spoilers, I think, like, it's

(01:31:30):
very Significant that.
It is the.
I think it is the mind flareand I think it is a brain inside
a wrinkle in time.
And it's a disembodied brain.
And this disembodied brain cantake over the minds of people and

(01:31:54):
start.
And the only way that theyhave been able to combat it was while
our characters in StrangerThings combat it with music.
They're able to combat it withthings such as nursery rhymes or
the Gettysburg Address or the.
Or sometimes periodic tablesand things that were like.

(01:32:15):
More like things that youcommit to your memory that are part
of your memories that are partof how you see the world and shape.
Or shape your world and your worldview.
And so that's how they.
But if they get too rhythmicthen there's a rhythm and a pulsation
and something that thathappens with it that goes out through

(01:32:36):
all of Camazot's and basically.
Basically makes everybody moveand act and respond the same.
It is one living organism.
So again a reference to thehive mind and how things work.
And I thought that that is.
I thought that's a.
That's a really big crossoverto what's happening.

(01:32:56):
I do think that there's somethings around time travel and tessering.
So the tesseract is a objectin that book.
I don't know if they'll evenbring a tesseract into this.
But I do think that there is a.
You know, they've alreadytalked about the flux capacitor.
So I do think there's room forthem to.
With this funnel and thisbridge to also bring in references

(01:33:18):
of.
Even the tesseract may be toomuch because I don't think that that
will be enough.
I don't think that we havegiven this enough scaffolding inside
the main story.
But they could do somethingwith the flex capacitor to.
To kind of like supplement that.
And I think where the partthat I'm specifically thinking about
is when they do get to Meg'sdad and Meg's dad is like puts on

(01:33:44):
the glasses that are Mrs.Whatsits glasses to be able to see
every where they are andescape from the prison he's been
in.
Underneath the spell of.
It they have to save Meg byTessa wrestling to another dimension.
And that dimension is wherethey get Meg gets healing and finds

(01:34:08):
out about her mission that sheis the only one that can save her
brother who's been fullyembodied by it.
And what's fascinating aboutus referencing in the non spoiler
section that.
Charles Wallace who was herbrother is A very sensitive child
like Henry Krill and also likeWill Byers is that he believes himself

(01:34:32):
to be able to withstand the.
What it is able to do.
And because he trusted inhimself too much in his own abilities,
he's overtaken by it.
I don't think that they're.
I want to hear what you thinkabout it, but I don't think that
in that moment that.

(01:34:54):
Is talking about or referencing.
I don't think it's gonna be aone to one anyway.
But I think that belief intheir own abilities, they were overtaken
by it.
I actually think that's closerto Max's story.
I actually think that Maxbelieved I can hide in my.
It's my mind so I can hide ina positive memory and stand there

(01:35:17):
hide in the light.
I think that she believed inher own ability to do that too much
that she eventually wasovertaken by.
By Vecna and I.
And I do think that's moreclose to Max.
And maybe they'll use some ofthat in it.
I don't know if that'll endthat way.
But that's my.
That's some of the things Iwas thinking about with.
With Bricklin.
Yeah, it's like we.

(01:35:38):
We said when we were talkingabout it offline.
I don't think it's a one toone, but I think the most likely
Canada is.
Is Henry Creole not thinkingthat thinking he can manipulate the
Mind Flayer when the MindFlayer is manipulating him.

(01:35:58):
I just have questions about like.
Who is Meg?
You know, I think.
I think the Meg role has to besplit between multiple characters.
I think it's most likely like Holly.
But then maybe.
Maybe it's Holly and.
Oh, I can't say this about a.

(01:36:19):
A play spoiler.
But you know what?
Folks just hit.
I'm gonna say a minor.
It's not a minor place spoiler.
But it's just one word.
So hit the forward a coupletimes and so that you skip this part.
But I think that it's possiblethat Holly and Max will find Patty

(01:36:39):
new me Newbie as a memory inHenry's mind and bring it to.
Bring her to confront him.
But I.
Otherwise I just don't see theone to one.
But I do think there's a. Iagree with you.
There's a lot of similaritiesbetween the story in terms of conformity.
It is very much like the Mind Flayer.

(01:36:59):
In fact, until I re started toreread this book, which I read when
I was eight years old.
I didn't think I'd ever seen a villain.
Kind of like the Mind Flayer.
It wasn't until I was like, oh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too.
Yeah, like, it's.
It's very similar.

(01:37:19):
It.
This.
It's not just like a.
Like a concrete person who'sdoing evil things.
It's this.
You know, in.
In the case of a Wrinkle timeslike a super brain.
But in.
In the case of StrangerThings, the Mind Flayer is an entity.
We don't really know itsorigin story, and I don't think we're.
We're gonna find out in this,this season what its full origin

(01:37:43):
story is.
I think they may save that fora spin off one day.
But I. I totally agree thatthere's a lot of similarities there.
I.
This is not one of my favoritestories that I liked.
Like, there's a reason Ididn't remember.
It didn't really stay with me.
I don't really care for Meg'scharacter all too much.

(01:38:03):
So I think that's.
I.
And I don't mean that as amean thing.
Meg is a perfectly good character.
It's just that I personallydidn't identify with her, so it didn't
really stay with me.
It's not a book that I, I readover and over again, like the way
I read, like the Chronicles of Narnia.
But I totally agree with youthat the, The.

(01:38:24):
The.
The similarities are 100 there.
And I'm just curious wherethey take this.
You know, one of the thingsthat the Duffer said in Leading up
was that they didn't mention aWrinkle in Time.
They actually mentioned themovie, the Cell.
They mentioned EternalSunshine of the Spotless Mind.
All of those have similarthings about, you know, looking through

(01:38:47):
memories.
Cataly.
Cataly.
Cataloging.
I don't know why I can't speak.
Cataloging memories andpulling from them, hiding things
in memories.
So I think all of that couldcome back, come into play.
But I just.
I'm curious about who.
Who would do that.
Is it Max?

(01:39:08):
Or is it.
Will somebody.
Will El be there to do an assist?
Like, I don't really.
So I. I think we'll have to see.
And I'm.
I'm excited about episode six,though, which is Escape from Camazotz.
I don't think it's going to gosuper well.
Like, I think it's going to beanother plan that maybe Holly gets
out but Max doesn't, or vice versa.

(01:39:30):
But I think it's going to be afun episode.
I'm worried I'm worried, I'mworried about this piece.
Like, I think, I think like,you know, there's agreed like, like
who gets out.
I mean I think so just to kindof set it is.
We think kind of Camazotzequals Henry's mindscape.
It feels like.

(01:39:50):
Well, that's what, that's whatHolly gave it.
Yeah.
Holly gave it that name.
Yeah.
And what is fascinating thatshe gives the whole mindscape the
name Camazotz because in thisparticular story there's dark planets
of which Camazot is thedarkest one in the central intelligence
of all these dark planets.
And Earth is kind of fightingto not become a dark planet because

(01:40:13):
we have so many dark entitiesand shadow, what they call shadowy,
the blackness or whatever thatlike that come, come around the planet
and, and so there's like afight happening.
So I think like it'sfascinating that they, she just named
the whole thing Camazots.
But whatever, let's go with that.
It Mind Flayer trap Father,maybe Max or Henry Krill.

(01:40:38):
Let's find out.
And that's what we'restruggling is like.
It can't be a one to onebecause Meg really is probably going
to have to go through, through multiples.
I, I tend to believe that.
I, I think that I agree withyou that probably what they're going
to sign even though I, I, I dosee, I like that like the mind flare

(01:41:00):
has a consistency just like itdoes of overtaking people who think
too much of their abilities tobe able to withstand it.
And so I think now with thisnew education that you know, Max
tried and failed.
She's inside Vecna's mind nowbecause of that failure.
Had she not had El toresurrect her, she would be dead.
Right.
We wouldn't even see Max right now.

(01:41:20):
So I think Max is going toplay this a little differently.
So I do like what you'resaying about it being like Henry
Crail is the person they haveto do.
And it reminds me of in thatstory again when they, let's say
they get to Patty Newby.
Let's say that's what it is.
And again.

(01:41:40):
If they do, it will be likeAunt Beast who gives like the girl
a chance to go back into thefray and go and save her brother.
So let's see.
I don't know, I don't know ifthey'll go that literal.
I hope they don't actually, ifI'm being completely honest.
There'S a little bit of methat there's, there's a, there's
being referential, there'sbeing derivative of a work, and then

(01:42:03):
there's just like, we're justgoing to do the same story.
And, you know, they've alwaysbeen good about using references
like DND and making their maincharacters based off of other characters
in the DND world and all theseother things.
I think it's cool that they'reusing a different fantasy story,
but it can get into, as youand I talked about offline, it can
get into the place of, youknow, just ripping off somebody else's

(01:42:26):
work.
So I hope that they don't goas literal as that.
I hope they remix it enoughthat it's like, oh, they were inspired
by.
But I didn't take directly,one to one, how it goes.
So, yeah, they already haveenough issues with the discourse
about.
You'Re wizard buyers.
Like, it's not.

(01:42:47):
It's not a good look.
So hopefully that they foundways to make this story feel fresh,
you know, because I do thinkthey have things to say that are
not related to all theseinfluences that they have or that
they're things that they couldsay better.
Right.
No story is perfectly freshbecause all stories are influenced
by what the writer experiencedbefore the story.

(01:43:09):
We're all heavily influencedby the art that came before us.
But I think you can have afresh perspective.
So I'm interested to see ifthey turn some of these themes on
their head or remix a story ordo it in a slightly more interesting
way.
Again, no offense to peoplewho love this book, I just didn't
find it to be of thechildren's story I grew up reading,

(01:43:32):
it wasn't one of the morecompelling ones.
So maybe they'll find a way tokind of remix that and tell it a
little bit differently.
Or maybe this is just adevice, like Dungeons and Dragons,
for Holly to contextualize her experience.
I kind of hope that's mostly it.
But the fact that they calledone of the episodes Escape from Kamazoth

(01:43:54):
is kind of saying, no, there'smore to it than that.
So we'll see.
Should we talk about the DarkPhoenix connections?
That will be pretty quick.
Yeah, sure, let's do it.
So in the very first episodeof this series, which y', all, if
you go back and you watch theVanishing of Will Byers and you.

(01:44:17):
You watch the Weirdo on MapleMaple street, you will see that some
of this stuff with Will wasreally laid out for us from the very
first episode.
But in that first episode,aside from when Will says that Demogorgon
Got me.
Which is a thing thateverybody points to is like, see?

(01:44:38):
He knew it was gonna get him.
They.
As they're leaving Mike'shouse, Dustin and Will are competing
over who will get to holdDustin's Uncanny X Men issue 134.
This is part of the Dark Phoenix.

(01:45:01):
Saga.
I was like.
I almost said era.
I'm.
I'm too.
I'm too much online.
So it's part of the DarkPhoenix Saga.
And so I just wanted to take asecond because I always thought that
this wasn't.
Was about L.
And one of the reasons Ihaven't really talked extensively
about it is because.

(01:45:23):
There are a lot ofsimilarities between Jean Gray, Dark
who.
Dark Phoenix, and El in termsof their abilities, right?
They have the psychic powers,the telekinesis.
They're.
They're the most powerfulpeople in their world.
Right.
And I think the duffers havedrawn some stories in from Elle season

(01:45:44):
one arc from.
Like, there's some of elseseason one arc is.
Is drawn.
Inspired by.
Not drawn from, but inspiredby the Dark Phoenix Saga.
But when I went back andrevisited that first episode and
I heard it again, I was alittle concerned because one of the

(01:46:05):
things about the Dark Phoenixin a story that we haven't actually
seen Elle embody is possessinga power that is.
Corrupting you.
Elle has been.
She's had her moments, right?
But they're totally human moments.
And her power is not whatcauses the moments.

(01:46:27):
Right?
Her power is this thing thatseparates her from other people,
but it's not corrupting her.
Whereas Will is now tappingdirectly into Vecna.
And so I'm concerned becausethis is mentioned in episode one
in a conversation with Willand Dustin.
And spoiler alert for the DarkPhoenix, which y'.

(01:46:53):
All.
This story been out for a longtime, so I don't feel bad spoiling
it, is that Jean Greysacrifices herself when she realizes
she can't control the Phoenix and.
Dies.
So I'm a little.
I think we're all hypedbecause Will has powers, and we see

(01:47:13):
the ways that Will can.
Will can weaponize thisagainst Vecna without remembering
that Vecna can weaponize thisagainst Will.
And also, I find it very susthat Vecna shows up and then Will
embodies that power almostimmediately after.
I want everyone to rememberthey told us to watch the Spy.
And in that episode, Will madeMike and his mother believe that

(01:47:38):
he was spying on Vecna.
Well, spying on the Mindflayer when he was actually spying.
He was actually Setting a trap.
So I. I'm not saying Will'sgonna die.
I hope Will's not gonna die.
I really don't want Will to die.
I've been saying this for along time.
I think it would be really badfor the show and for its legacy and
also torture for this poor character.

(01:48:00):
But I think we should justkeep in mind that this connection
to the hive mind works in both directions.
Yeah, I'm worried about it onall the same beats that we've been
talking about with all thekind of like the way that I've been
tracking them with this story.

(01:48:21):
And I think.
Yeah, I could see easilyeither this, this being applicable
to both L and Will, or either.
Or, you know what I mean, bothof them or either one of them.
And I like what you're sayingthere about from the Will perspective.
I think the same could be true.

(01:48:42):
Like, you know, we've talked.
I've, you know, brought inmultiple times things and we've talked
about, about with like, herojourney arcs.
And I do think one of thethings about the return to the ordinary
world is that if you look atit from the perspective of playing
out for Elle and all of thisis speculation that El's ordinary
world is back in the lab andkind of like, we're not starting

(01:49:05):
when she starts with Hopper.
So I think ultimately shecould end up in a situation where
she either has to go backinto, you know, milit maybe, hopefully
we talk, we spitball.
The one that I like more todayof like, maybe she leaves with Owens
without her powers or with herpowers or with a subset.
Or maybe we see the doctor,Dr. K once she sees the real evil

(01:49:29):
and what Elle is able to do tosave it, to leave with.
Leave with Dr. K and Dr. K andher, or, you know, she's back in
that same kind of like, spiralof like that.
I ultimately think that shecould also sacrifice herself as well
to save the greater group, if possible.
But I think your theory around.
I think what I land at afterall our conversations is Will doing

(01:49:55):
what you're talking about andElle kind of leaving either with
or without her powers, back into.
This kind of like.
State of being in like, youknow, a weapon of the government,
or it's for her own safety orit's for the world's safety that

(01:50:15):
she be with someone that isgoing to look after her, not her
family.
And that.
That be.
That would be like, you know,Dr. K or Owens or one of those type
of people.
So I can see it playing outwith both of those stories happening
that way.
I. I actually.
I don't think that.
I don't know.
I mean, I want Will and Elleto get out of.
Out of this story.
Okay.

(01:50:38):
I struggle with.
I struggle with the how.
I struggle with the how.
The fan of me is like, no,nothing happened to them.
The person who's kind of seensome of these things and kind of
referencing what you'retalking about with, like, the Dark
Phoenix or any.
It's.
It's a hard.
It's hard to see how, youknow, But.
But maybe they.
Maybe.
I mean, I can.
I can see how.

(01:50:58):
Well, like, that's not anissue for me.
I can see them both gettingout of this.
As long as they disentangleWill from.
The hive mind, I don't knowhow they.
How they're going to do that.
Like, what.
How are they going todisentangle it from the hive mind?
Like, what if they disentangle Henry.
From the hive mind in some way?

(01:51:20):
Then I think that they can.
They can explain it that way.
But I. I'm worried.
I'm worried more.
About.
Will because they spent somuch time connecting him to the hive
mind than I was going into the show.

(01:51:41):
Going into the show, I was like.
I had gone back and forth forseveral months before we started
podcasting.
I was very much like, oh,shoot, Will is in trouble.
I don't think Will's going tomake it out this season.
But then as we rewatched andtalked about it, I felt more confident
that Will was going to be fine.
And then when I saw howclosely connected they made him to
the hive mind, my alarm bellstarted going off again.

(01:52:03):
So I think if they candisentangle the hive mind entirely,
maybe they.
They come up with a way toundermine the hive mind, that Will
might be fine.
I mean, that would track withreturning to the ordinary world or
being him returning back tohis world, but I can't imagine.
I don't know.
I think I struggle with, like,the story ending.

(01:52:26):
You know, let's see.
They got time travel on theirside, so let's see.
Maybe It'll be like Dr.
Strange, and they'll come upwith one possible scenario that could
save the world.
I'm sorry, Couldn't help it.
Let's close out with one thingthat I think is a major spoiler that
has play implications thatwill come in.

(01:52:47):
And I think if you don't wantto hear about this, you should definitely,
like, wait and not look at this.
But what we're going to talkabout is why Henry stops at the cave,
what the significance of thecave is.
And since I haven't seen theplay, I'm going to ask.
I'll ask you that, like, from,you know, the first shadow, what

(01:53:08):
is it that's happening herewith the cave that has made it where
Max has been able to kind ofhide out there?
So there's a bunch of Eastereggs from the play.
So the main one, the one thatI've seen the most questions about,
is about the cave.

(01:53:29):
So Henry Creel, at 8 yearsold, lived in Lincoln County, Nevada,
which also is near whereDoctor, a young Dr. Brenner, had
a lab.
One of the.
Employees of that lab stolesome equipment and absconded and
put that, like, hid theequipment in a cave.

(01:53:50):
Henry Creel going into is achild exploring the cave, went into
the cave and disappeared todimension X for 12 hours.
And so that's why the.
The number 12 is important.
Another thing that I think isan Easter egg is the spyglass that

(01:54:13):
Holly uses is a CaptainMidnight spyglass.
Spy scope.
And.
Sorry, it's a spy scope in theplay, it's described, I believe,
is a spy glass.
So I think that's aninteresting difference.
And the outcut where she.
The.
Like the viewer, is shaped inthe same formation as the cave.

(01:54:39):
When Max says, look, it comeswith a view.
I'm not 100% sure what thesignificance of that is, because
that is not explained.
We don't spend any time in thecave in the play.
So that's not explained in the.
The.
In the.
The play.
But the.
The spy scope is important inthe play.
It's actually how Brennerfinds Henry because he leaves that

(01:55:04):
behind.
The same way that Hollydropped it and ran away, Henry also
left it.
And so I think it'sinteresting that he has it.
When I.
When she opened the.
The Boy Scout's chest and itwas there, I was.
I paused it because I waslike, what the hell?
This.
He shouldn't even have this thing.
It shouldn't be in his possession.

(01:55:27):
But it is there.
And so.
There'S a few other things.
Also, the final piece is thatthe play is unrelated to the cave.
This is about the play withinthe play.
So it's not a performance ofOklahoma they're doing.

(01:55:48):
Joyce is just telling everyonethat it's a performance of Oklahoma,
it's some other play.
And I won't get into thatbecause it's.
I don't think it's that important.
But the.
That performance on November6th is also the date that Henry kills
his mom and sister.
And.

(01:56:09):
So I don't think we knew that before.
So the date that Henry killshis mom and sister is the same date
that Will went missing, whichis the same date of the play.
Holy crap.
Okay, I think for me, that wasentirely new information is very
possible that, like, it wassomewhere I, I meant to go back to

(01:56:29):
today and I hope totally forgot.
Meant to go look at the.
The articles that Robin andNancy looked at about the Krill murders
to see if the date had beenmentioned in there and we just missed
it.
I feel like this is a bigdetail that we.
That would have been a lot ofpeople would have talked about.
I feel like this is new information.

(01:56:49):
So November 6th is a big dayacross multiple.
Across multiple decades.
So I. I just wanted to callthat out while we're doing spoilers.
Might as well do that.
One damn Stranger Things daywill never be the same.
That's crazy.
That's nuts.
That's.
That's wild.
I didn't know that.

(01:57:10):
That's pretty cool.
That's pretty, pretty cool.
Well, dang.
Well, you have been here on this.
This.
We knew this was going to be along one.
If you're still here with us,we appreciate you.
And, you know, if you'recoming back after watching the full
season to watch the spoiler, Imean, to hear about the spoiler stuff.

(01:57:31):
Welcome back.
So, yeah, hit up@kinfolklorepod kinfolkloremail.com you can also
hit up our substack for newarticles and reach out to us on threads
and we will see you next time.
Bye, everyone.

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