May 3, 2024 • 45 mins
Welcome back to the Lecker Book Club. Every month I’ll pick a newly released food related book and talk to the author about the process of writing it. I’ll also be writing about it on Substack and Patreon. Join me there as well!
This month: Piglet by Lottie Hazell.
I first came across Lottie’s writing when she contributed to the first Lecker zine I curated and published in 2019: Plum Jam, a piece of short fiction about a funeral, an underset blancmange and a broken tooth. I still remember how the piece unsettled me, placing complicated family relationships alongside difficult or reluctant pleasure derived from feeding others; or being fed by others. Her debut novel, Piglet, came out earlier this year and its writing is deeply rooted in what food can mean to us: physically, emotionally and socially.
I loved talking to Lottie about Piglet so much! As you’ll hear me tell her in the episode, it was such an interesting experience to encounter such luscious, detailed writing about food in a fictional setting, particularly set alongside scenes of such discomfort. The book made me squirm, in a really intriguing way and I loved how the dishes and tablescapes Piglet makes and consumes dressed the set of her home and work lives.
Heads up that if you haven’t read the book, we do talk about specific plot points in it so if you’d prefer to be spoiler free, go and read it first! And the book does touch on themes of body image, weight and some implied references to disordered eating, so if those topics are sensitive to you please take care.
You can find a transcript for this episode at leckerpodcast.com.
Piglet is out now, published by Doubleday. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
Buy a copy of either/both of the Lecker zines on BigCartel. You can also order print-on-demand merch at Teemill.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
I'm speaking at Interesting24 on 15th May at Conway Hall in London! Buy a ticket to come and watch me talk about kitchens.
This month: Piglet by Lottie Hazell.
I first came across Lottie’s writing when she contributed to the first Lecker zine I curated and published in 2019: Plum Jam, a piece of short fiction about a funeral, an underset blancmange and a broken tooth. I still remember how the piece unsettled me, placing complicated family relationships alongside difficult or reluctant pleasure derived from feeding others; or being fed by others. Her debut novel, Piglet, came out earlier this year and its writing is deeply rooted in what food can mean to us: physically, emotionally and socially.
I loved talking to Lottie about Piglet so much! As you’ll hear me tell her in the episode, it was such an interesting experience to encounter such luscious, detailed writing about food in a fictional setting, particularly set alongside scenes of such discomfort. The book made me squirm, in a really intriguing way and I loved how the dishes and tablescapes Piglet makes and consumes dressed the set of her home and work lives.
Heads up that if you haven’t read the book, we do talk about specific plot points in it so if you’d prefer to be spoiler free, go and read it first! And the book does touch on themes of body image, weight and some implied references to disordered eating, so if those topics are sensitive to you please take care.
You can find a transcript for this episode at leckerpodcast.com.
Piglet is out now, published by Doubleday. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
Buy a copy of either/both of the Lecker zines on BigCartel. You can also order print-on-demand merch at Teemill.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
I'm speaking at Interesting24 on 15th May at Conway Hall in London! Buy a ticket to come and watch me talk about kitchens.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lucy (00:01):
This is Lecker.
I'm Lucy Dearlove.
Welcome to the firstLecker episode of 2024.
Yes, I know it's May at this point.
I decided to take a little breakfrom the podcast at the start of
the year as, to be honest, I'vebeen quite burnt out recently.
(00:21):
And, uh, It made sense just to havea little rest and come back renewed.
And that renewal, that break endedup being a little bit longer than
anticipated, but I'm back now.
Thank you for being here with me.
I've noticed there's been a fewnew listeners and subscribers
over the past couple of months.
So I'm really delighted to be back.
(00:41):
that you're joining me and I'dlove to know what brought you here.
I had a real spike in listeners atthe start of the year and I couldn't
figure out where it was from.
So if you can help me solve thatmystery and let me know how you found
out about the podcast if you're a newlistener, I'd love to hear from you.
You can find me on Instagram atLeckerpodcast or you can get in
contact via the Lecker website.
(01:03):
That's at Leckerpodcast.
com
Speaking of my, uh, my burnout,it's probably a good time to mention
that if you are in a position tomake a financial contribution to
the podcast, you can do that onPatreon, Substack or Apple Podcasts.
(01:25):
They all Cost in the region of aboutthree to four pounds a month, or you can
save a little bit on the monthly cost.
If you pay for a year subscription,you'll get access to some subscriber
only content, and more importantly,your support helps make the production
of this podcast more sustainableand essentially possible for me.
(01:47):
I really want to continue makinglacquer as long as I possibly can,
because it brings so much to my life.
It's really helpful to me to beable to cover my costs like website
hosting, music licensing, equipment,and taking a fee for my production.
It just makes a huge differenceas it means I can focus more
(02:08):
on Lecker and less on my otherfreelance work and can make better.
Podcast episodes, essentially.
I've actually got some cool subscriberonly plans coming up this year,
including a new monthly essay seriescalled Scraps, which has just launched.
The first edition is about the Ideal HomeShow and it's available for everybody.
So you can have a little,little trial of it there.
(02:29):
The audio series I'm running on thereat the moment for paid subscribers
is wrapping up this month with fourreally interesting conversations to
listen back to about food packagingthat's called Out of the Box.
And you can find that onSubstack, Patreon as I mentioned.
And if you're not in a position topay for this, that's totally fine.
Thank you for being here as well.
(02:49):
And I'm so grateful toyou for listening as well.
One of the best things you can do to helpme, that costs nothing, is to spread the
word about the podcast, so if you likeit, tell a friend, I'd be really grateful.
And one more thing, before we start, ifyou're in or around London, on the 15th
of May, I'm speaking at a super coolconference at Conway Hall, which is in
(03:12):
central London, called Interesting24,organised by Russell Davies.
It's a series of short talksabout interesting things.
My interesting thing is obviouslyto do with kitchens, which will
come as a surprise to no one.
If you'd like to hear me do a 10 minutetalk about kitchens alongside loads of
other great speakers, get your ticket.
I'll put the link in the show notes.
(03:34):
Okay, finally, on with the show.
This month on the Lecker BookClub, Piglet by Lottie Hazel.
I first came across Lottie's writing whenshe contributed to the first Leckerzine
that I curated and published in 2019.
Plum Jam, a piece of short fictionabout a funeral, an underset
(03:57):
blancmange, and a broken tooth.
I still remember how the pieceunsettled me, placing complicated
family relationships alongsidedifficult or reluctant pleasure
derived from feeding others.
Lottie Or being fed by them.
Lottie's debut novel Piglet came outearlier this year and its writing is
deeply rooted in what food can mean tous physically, emotionally, and socially.
Lottie (04:23):
I didn't want food to be like a benign good.
Sometimes cooking can be a relief anda meditation, but that is a percentage
of the time, and I just wanted it to bepervasive throughout the entire tech.
I
Lucy (04:45):
love talking to Lottie about Piglet so much.
As you'll hear us talk about in theepisode, I found it such an interesting
experience to encounter such luscious,detailed writing about food in a
fictional setting, particularly setalongside scenes of abject discomfort.
You'll know what I mean if you've read it.
(05:06):
The book really made me squirm inan intriguing way, and I loved how
the dishes and tablescapes thatPiglet makes and consumes dress
the set of her home and work lives.
Heads up, if you haven't read thebook, we do talk about specific plot
points in it, so if you'd prefer to bespoiler free, go away and read it first.
and the book does touch sort ofsomewhat implicitly on themes of
(05:30):
body image, weight and some impliedreferences to disordered eating.
So if those topics are inany way sensitive to you just
please take care with listening.
We began with Lottie givingus a quick Piglet synopsis.
Lottie (05:51):
I describe Piglet as a story of appetite and aspiration and it follows
a woman who is nicknamed Piglet in thecouple of weeks before her wedding and in
the days before she's due to be marriedher fiancé confesses this terrible
truth to her that threatens to unravelthe life that she has really carefully
curated for them both and we follow herin the countdown to the day they're to
(06:15):
be married and we follow her unravelingand her trying to digest this truth,
food pun, not intended but inevitablewhen I'm talking about this book, and we
see lots of her kind of grappling happenthrough the lens of food, which is really
important to how she perceives herselfas a person and how she perceives others.
Lucy (06:36):
And so how does she perceive herself as a person?
Lottie (06:39):
I think their class comes into this in a big way in terms of Piglet
comes from kind of like a workingclass, I suppose, family from Derby
and she is doing her best, I think,to distance herself from those people.
Not for, the book doesn't really presentus with any information why she would
(07:01):
be doing that besides the fact thather family have nicknamed her Piglet
and we assume that has a level ofcomplication and pain attached to it.
But it's more a case of we get a sense, wemeet her when she's in a very aspirational
part of her life, like Kit and hisfamily are kind of like middle upper
class and she's trying to assimilate.
And lots of her food behaviours are,you know, lavish spreads, expensive
(07:24):
pieces of meat and wine and alcohol.
So I think that's all part of herperception is that she is kind of affluent
and worthy in the context of her mind.
compared to her family, I suppose.
Lucy (07:38):
I definitely want to come back and talk more about class in a minute.
Um, but just to come back to thesort of writing of the book itself,
when did you start working on it?
Lottie (07:50):
So I started working on it in 2019 when I started my, um,
creative PhD, which that looks atcontemporary food centric fiction.
So I just was like, what would Ireally like to um, research for three
years and just have a great time?
Um, as if I was allowedto do that, it's wild.
(08:11):
And I was looking specifically atnarratives of disclosure and how
food can be used in kind of, anexperiment of satisfaction with
the reader and with the prose.
Um, so I started writing in 2019and really got into my, really hit
my stride when I was allowed togo nowhere like everyone else in
2020 and finished it in that year.
Lucy (08:33):
And so what were you looking at in your PhD?
I remember hearing the title ofyour PhD or reading it somewhere
and being like, oh my god,
Lottie (08:41):
that sounds incredible.
I had a really wonderful time.
I was trying to answer, or atleast explore the question of
the kind of satisfaction cycle.
So, um, specifically in literatureand specifically when food is
used as a device, not necessarily.
I think there are loads of wonderful booksthat use food that aren't necessarily
(09:02):
foodie fiction or, um, like I thinkPiglet is pretty foodie, but there's.
I think food is such a wonderful toolto explore, you know, class, gender,
social dynamics, familial dynamics.
It's just so ripe for creative play.
But circle back to your actual question.
I was trying to work out how disclosurecould integrate with a novel that
(09:32):
used food to offer kind of levelsof satisfaction or release or kind
of unclenching for the reader.
And so in Piglet, I'm really trying torun Kit's confession and how much we know
about that as a reader alongside Piglet'sappetite as it grows and, um, kind of
(09:54):
ask the question of what's satisfying.
Lucy (09:56):
How have readers responded to the fact that, and I don't know if
this is a spoiler, maybe it is, that wenever learn what Kit has actually done?
Have you had people beinglike, why don't we put it
Lottie (10:08):
out?
Mostly really well.
I think my publishers have done areally good job of positioning the book
because I think that if it was packageddifferently you might think it's a kind
of like a will they won't they romp aboutwhether they get married and or maybe
it's kind of more of a crime thriller.
So I think they've done a really goodjob in setting up the expectation that
(10:31):
I'm not going to necessarily followthe contract that is set up between
the writer and the reader at alltimes and that's kind of by design.
But I have also had, I had another oneyesterday, quite a few irate Instagram
DMs being like, I've read the wholebook and it's never said anywhere what
he does so can you please like chopchop what's, what's going on here?
Lucy (10:55):
Do you
Lottie (10:55):
know what he
Lucy (10:56):
does?
Lottie (10:56):
Yeah, I feel like one of the guests at the wedding in a way,
and looking around at everyone onmy table, like in a gossipy sense,
being like, do you know what it was?
Oh, it could have been this.
And speculating.
And in some earlier drafts, I didplay with putting Labeled ending
in being like, this is what he did.
And I read them, I was like,this isn't better for me, for
(11:17):
me to put my suggestion there.
And I'm so much more interested inthe collaboration that I can have
with everyone who reads it in thatthey bring so much to the text.
I, yeah.
Um, really motivated by the blank spaceand the invitation that that leaves.
Lucy (11:33):
Yeah, that's such an interesting way of looking at it.
When you said it could be a crimethriller, it made me realize how
unambitious I'd been in my imaginationabout what he could have done.
Yeah.
I was like, I, I just think he's, he'sobviously just cheated or something,
but no, it could have been a murder.
It is fascinating to hear people's
Lottie (11:51):
like, level of, um, The scale of speculation is wild and it's been
one of my favorite things, I think,doing the press for the book tour to
be like, okay, when it was acquired,um, the publisher who acquired it also
publishes Lee Child and Lee Child'seditor was like, it's murder, right?
And everyone was like, that'stoo much Lee Child for you.
(12:11):
No more.
Lucy (12:14):
And so you talked about how food is such another great, um, food metaphor.
It's, it's a really kind of, it's Thewriting of a book with food positioned in
it is ripe for, um, experimentation andI think that was one of the things that
really struck me about Piglet is like howcentral food is to the kind of general
world building, if that's not too cringea phrase, but, I kind of did an experiment
(12:39):
when I was just like recapping, cause Iread it a couple of months ago and I was
just like flicking through the thingsI'd underlined before we spoke today.
And basically every page that I stopped athad a, and that was, you know, I was, then
I started stopping every few pages andevery single page had something about food
on it, which is kind of extraordinary.
Can you give me some examples ofsome of the ways in which food is
(13:02):
completely central to the book itself?
Lottie (13:06):
Yeah, I find that very hard to answer because
I feel it is the book itself.
I feel like there's not aelement that it hasn't touched.
I feel like when I'm thinking, I supposethe main things that I was trying to
explore, where I feel food is wonderfulat illustrating that, are things like
the gender expectations that surroundwomen, but specifically at the wedding,
(13:33):
which I think is the body plays intothat as well and the physical self and
I think food does so much in that spaceboth in the kind of like the woman
eating but also the woman being perceivedto be eating so that was a big one I
think also kind of social frictionsLike the things that different people
find acceptable or worthwhile to eat.
(13:56):
So I've spoken a lot about Vinessa whenI've spoken about piglet and the kind
of importance of that as a, I thinksocial and cultural touch point and how
people, different people react to that.
I, funnily enough, I foundout that Vinetta in Canada is
apparently a really like high-end.
(14:16):
Like very posh thing.
And I was like, this is, we didn'tdo the sensitivity read for Canada.
Missed a trick.
Lucy (14:24):
I do think it's really, cause V& S is such an interesting,
like British class symbol.
And I think when you, I did write thisdown, um, that there's a line about they
only serve Viennese ironically, whichI think, I just think like encompasses
so much about British food culture andlike class and like the kind of obsession
(14:47):
with wealthier middle class peopleoften having this kind of like obsession
with working class culture and almostlike a cosplay, weird cosplay thing.
So yeah, I do think that, that I cansee why you've talked a lot about it
because I think it says so much to us.
Lottie (15:02):
Yeah, but I also think it underlines the kind of cruelty.
I think that there is For Piglet I thinkthere's a cruelty that she thinks so
freely in that sense that she serves aVianessa ironically because it's so much
of a, not only is she rejecting thosefamilial customs, she's also refashioning
(15:29):
them into something to kind of likestep on them and to lift herself up
and I think it's kind of like, I thinkit's kind of in conversation with what
you're saying about the cosplaying,but there's a kind of sinister element.
It's a ha ha.
Lucy (15:42):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You, she has to make it clear thatshe thinks she's better than it.
Lottie (15:48):
Mm, yeah.
In some
Lucy (15:49):
sense.
Lottie (15:49):
Yeah.
Which I think is, for me, part ofthe reason why I love writing her.
'cause it's part of thesadness for her character.
Mm.
That it's like you are missing out.
Like her family failed her in lotsof ways and she fails her family.
It's, I think that I like writingcharacters that no one has, no one
is the front runner of the goodperson . Um, but I think that.
(16:11):
She really misses out there.
She misses out on Vionetta and she missesout on a closer bond with her family.
But, you know, it's complicated.
They call her Piglet andthat's obviously been damaging.
Lucy (16:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Like you say, nobody is thefrontrunner for the good person.
Nobody comes out covered in glory.
Yeah, and that is one of thereally interesting things about it.
Um, I also find the kind ofdynamic between Piglet and Kit
And how they, how food kind oflike exists in their relationship.
And the example I noted down was when,and I can't remember, I guess maybe this
(16:45):
is after he's made the disclosure to her.
I actually can't remember and youcan probably correct me on this.
Um, but it's when he'smaking the porridge for her.
And she's basically, cause she normallymakes it, like she's very, the kitchen
is very much her domain and shehas specific ways of doing things.
And that's how she kind of.
(17:06):
expresses mostly, mostof her emotions really.
And Kit basically does the porridge wrong.
And I, I really related to, I like, I sawmyself in this in a really negative way.
Like I, I have definitely been guiltyof what she does, which is that he
cooks it, you know, it's too hot.
It burns.
burns, it's the wrong texture, like it'svery like three bears, which is not,
(17:29):
it's not the perfect thing and that'sreally interesting because it felt to
me that that was her way of having powerlike within the class struggle between
the two of them that doesn't reallyneed to be there but is nonetheless,
like would you say that's, that's a
Lottie (17:45):
fair reading?
You're right it comes after theconfession and interestingly enough
to me I don't perceive Piglet and Kitas having a conscious class struggle.
I think that she is with his family as,I think that reading is totally valid.
And I think that surely it must play intotheir relationship as well, because of who
(18:05):
they are and the way they've been shaped.
But for me, that scene is a kind of, It'skind of a domestic tension and fraughtness
that that's what I was thinking aboutat that point was purely kind of the,
I suppose the land grab game of thekitchen of, you know, kits tentative and
(18:27):
I suppose quite brave decision to inhabitthat space because When you call that
behavior out, it's totally unreasonable.
But so, I also feel like it's sounderstandable why she feels so angry
at that point, because it's kindof, all that is, all of her anger
is manifesting via the porridge.
You know, he's betrayed herand also he makes terrible
porridge and it's, life is bad.
Lucy (18:49):
Yeah.
It is really, it was also, I foundit fascinating how, like, Piglet
basically can't get away from food.
Like, it's, it's, it's her, you know,it's her hobby, it's her social life.
It, but it's also her job.
So I guess I'm interested in,was, was she always, did she
always work in publishing for you?
Was that a central part of her?
(19:10):
As, as a character.
Yeah,
Lottie (19:11):
she always worked in food, and there was briefly a bit of catering,
but she moved quite quickly intopublishing because firstly, I have
experience in that, so I'm like, I can bedetailed here, as much as I want to be.
But also I think there's somethingkind of equally foreboding about,
um, someone that knows how to packagefood to readers, and especially in
(19:31):
the food publishing industry, thereare so many diet books or, you know,
various books that aren't necessarilyabout enjoying food and enjoying the
sensation of it as, as an eating.
It's, you know, coded and complicated.
And so I thought that was ainteresting, kind of, sideshow
(19:52):
to be going alongside that.
But I also felt that her monetizingsomething she enjoys feels very
present and very contemporary andvery relevant to the extent where it's
like, well, do I like this anymore?
Or have I just, have I, have I ruined it?
And you know, now I've made it my entirepersonality, but I can't get away from it.
(20:13):
Yeah.
But, um, But yeah, yeah,I feel that as well.
Yeah.
Lucy (20:20):
Yeah, we can't win.
No, piglet can't win.
So maybe if we could just come back to,I know we've talked about it quite a
lot, but just the kind of talk explicitlyabout food and class in the book.
I'm curious.
It really, this sort of readingit really made me think about my
own experiences as somebody thatdefinitely grew up middle class, but
(20:43):
there is like, it's just so nuanced.
And like, when I moved to London, I justhad this completely different experience.
I was around people who had thiscompletely different experience with food.
Like the only time I'd eaten pesto,like up until the age of like 18 was
like in a supermarket salad buffet.
And that's, That was just becausethat was what existed around me.
(21:03):
And like, I think, yeah, you're kindof like how class and food interacts in
your life is dependent on so many things.
So I guess I'm curious if this isn'ttoo personal question, like how your
own experiences kind of impactedhow you wrote about it in the end.
Lottie (21:19):
Yeah.
Oh, I think totally.
But I think that.
If you ask, like, if you ask youthat question, for example, you know
exactly what I'm trying to say becauseI think to a degree, we all have
that journey of whether it's, howeverour culinary horizons expand once
we leave the home, they do expand,and for Piglet it's a class journey.
(21:44):
And I think for most people, at some levelof my parents or whoever was feeding me,
have, they didn't do this, and I'm doingthis and I'm exploring it, I think it's
kind of like the folly of the child,of the younger person, of the younger
generation to be like, I am so awareand cultured and you know, whatever.
(22:06):
I am discovering.
Yes, precisely.
And also, um.
Yeah, that's totally my, um, I think haslots of roots in my experience as well.
Like when I went to university, I was not,I liked to eat, but I wouldn't say I was,
A kind of explorer of the culinary world.
(22:27):
That sounds so terrible, doesn't it?
Um, No, I know what you mean.
Yes, I'm one of the dickheads whois, is being like, I'm so refined
and interested with the food I eat.
But yeah, but I think it's kind oflike an unavoidable, I think that must
happen to everyone in some capacity.
Even if it's just, you know,eating a different type of food.
I don't know, bread or whatever it is.
(22:49):
You, you don't always eat the samethings you've eaten growing up.
Lucy (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, do you know what that is?
That is so true, and I think, I feel likeyou're making the point, and yeah, again
correct me if I'm wrong, that it doesn't,it doesn't really have to be about class,
like it, it sort of is for lots of people,but it also, that is often because we
are poisoned in this country to just be,like, everything is rooted in class, so.
(23:14):
Yeah,
Lottie (23:14):
yeah,
Lucy (23:15):
yeah.
Yeah.
But you're right, it doesn't haveto be about that, it can just
be about a different experienceand a different context.
I wonder
Lottie (23:20):
if there is a way, I can't think of an example where it wouldn't be about
class in some way, because I suppose thequote, bettering of the self by eating
a wider diet, whatever that width is,maybe that always has a class kind of
element to it, even if it's somethingthat's, you know, that doesn't seem to be
(23:42):
particularly coded in an upper class way.
Lucy (23:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I think, but that is the interestingthing about, I think, British
attitudes to many foods is that, andI don't want to get too rude, too
kind of stuck in a rut with this.
I feel like it's something I couldtalk about all day, but like the idea
that, you know, buying a takeawaycoffee is like the liberal metropolitan
(24:05):
elite that, you know, belongs to that.
And it's just so ridiculous thatlike, there are so many countries that
have these amazing rich food culturesand it has nothing to do with class.
Everyone eats well and.
A curiosity about food is apositive thing, rather than seen
as this kind of like, desire toprove you're better than others.
Lottie (24:23):
Yeah, but also I think there's kind of like a very sinister routine,
the division of peoples as well.
It's kind of has a political edge, likeif there's a, the liberal elite drink
coffee and eat avocados, and they're, youknow, ruining the conservative, you know.
I could go on for, but Itotally, I, I get you entirely.
(24:43):
Absolutely.
Lucy (24:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you've touched on this already,but another thing that was very
present in the book is the kind ofrelationship between eating and the
body, which sounds like a really basicthing to say, because obviously there
is a relation, there's a very clearrelationship between eating and the body.
But that was where so much of thediscomfort in reading the book came
(25:04):
for me kind of reading about this.
Yeah.
And it really kind of struck a chordfor me, the idea of we're not able.
To separate the kind of likepublic perception of our
physical body from what we eat.
Like it's kind of always on displayand it's always under scrutiny,
(25:24):
particularly for young women, like notto oversimplify, but that is the truth.
And like the very fact she's calledpiglet is immediate, just immediate kind
of, Like it, you know, it gave me a reallike cringe like inside, like not in a
kind of awkward, just like, Oh God, likeimagine having that nickname that's awful.
(25:45):
And you know that even though if it did,it does come from a place of affection
on some level, it's also like horrible.
I feel like people wouldn't knowthe, yeah, the impact of how that
would feel in the society we live in.
There's not really a question in that,but I guess, yeah, I'm just interested
in, yeah, how it felt to write about thebody in that way, as well as the food.
(26:12):
It was very much positionedalongside each other.
Lottie (26:15):
Essential, I think.
It felt essential to write about that.
And I think all the things that you'vejust, um, very eloquently outlined
were things that I was thinking about.
It was the fact that as an individual,especially as an individual in a,
um, female body, there's a level of.
(26:36):
power that has been wrested from you, thatyou don't get to choose the way you move
through the world in, um, its entirety.
And, No one does, I'm sure, but itfeels like a particularly compromised
position in relation to women and food.
So my key goal for Piglet was for herto be able to use her body in a way
(27:00):
that felt powerful to her and that powerisn't necessarily a positive thing.
We see her struggling with, I suppose,ordered food behaviours, but I was
very keen not to label those thingsas quote bad because I wanted her
just to reclaim a sense of yeahpower and agency via the body even
(27:27):
if that is is unsustainable for her.
Lucy (27:29):
And even if that is, in some sense, quote, socially unacceptable.
Lottie (27:34):
Yeah, exactly.
I guess.
Lucy (27:37):
Also, like, I'm fascinated
Lottie (27:38):
by that socially unacceptable.
I think that plays into the wholequestion, um, and the kind of, issue of
the writing because, like, why is it, why?
There's some extreme, more extreme,quote, eating behaviours in the book,
but still, if you're a passerby, youprobably don't witness all of it, I think.
But I think there's a level of discomfortwith the idea of women that eat.
(28:02):
And I just wanted to put on thatstring and see how far that would go.
Lucy (28:06):
And she, and I feel, you know, Piglet is very much aware.
of the potential for shame around that.
And yeah, one of the most uncomfortablescenes for me was when her colleagues find
her in the restaurant alone and I just,yeah, the kind of like level of exposure
gave me like a sort of full body horror.
(28:28):
And I think that it made me reflect alot on how I think I have some of, I
think some of my sort of thinking andbehaviors around food, like something
I very much keep private because itdoes just feel so exposing to that.
I was like, I never would have sat inthe restaurant and had seven burgers.
Like I would have just gone.
(28:49):
You take them a takeaway.
Yeah.
Don't be an idiot.
But that felt really interestingthat she, she kind of didn't mind.
being perceived in that way but it wasjust when the world collided and people
that she knew saw her doing it that that'swhere the shame came in and i found that
yeah really kind of illuminating yeah
Lottie (29:09):
yes it's interesting that she kind of walks a line of like she kind
of courts the the attention when it'swhen she's anonymous but as soon as she
yes is named it's like oh dear god i'vemelted into this i have to go and die
now because i cannot come back yeah yeah
Lucy (29:26):
yeah exactly Let's talk about the croquembouche, uh, which is the wedding
cake that Piglet chooses to make herself,which is an unhinged thing to do, at
the best of times, which it is not.
Why a croquembouche?
Lottie (29:46):
There was a kind of irresistible pull to the, uh,
French cuisine for the wedding.
I think it says lots about, you know,piglet as a kind of aspirational person.
In the book we discover that Kit'sparents import foie gras from France
because it's obviously illegal in the UK.
(30:08):
Um, and I think there's this,there's the commitment to, I
think it's just a commitment toassimilation and to showing off.
It's a look at me opportunity andirresistibly because it's a dessert you
traditionally smash, I was like, when it.
When we get to the end of the book,like, I need someone to take a
baseball bat to this, and I thought,I just like the inverting of the,
(30:31):
let's smash it together and push onein each other's face to destroy it.
Lucy (30:37):
Yeah, yeah, I think for me, it was kind of, obviously, like it's, like
you say, it's a construction that isvery durable in a sense, because it does
need to be smashed in, but there's alsothis, like, innate sense of fragility.
Because it's such a complicated,delicate thing to make.
And.
It doesn't go to plan, like her making ofit, there's kind of this like, it ends up
(31:03):
being this sort of like, a sass, grog andbouge, which I thought was really, and the
bit, one of the bits I really liked aboutthis kind of, you know, this thread was
her family getting involved in the makingof it, which felt actually really sweet.
In kind of a horrible situation.
(31:24):
Yes, I
Lottie (31:24):
think the croquembouche is really, it's kind of a metaphor for Piglet
herself, it's an overreaching, for noreason, like there's no reason to do this.
And when Franny comes in to try andhelp her with the glue gun at the
end, and it's like, no one cares.
And, yeah, I, I find that really tenderas well, just to be like this, let's
get ready, you crazy, crazy lady.
Lucy (31:44):
And again, like, not to make it all about me, but I definitely, I have not
made a croquembouche, but I definitelyrelated to that idea of when you actually
break it down and you think aboutsomething, you're like, I'm entirely doing
this for myself, this isn't only for me.
Yeah.
And this is only because I want peopleto say to me, aren't you so clever
and brilliant, look what you've made.
100%, exactly, yeah.
(32:06):
Yeah, um, this is something we'vedefinitely touched on already, but I
was so fascinated by how these beautifuldescriptions of food that you kind
of wrote throughout the book, um, youknow, like absolutely gorgeous table
spreads of like wonderful meats andlike plates and salads and, um, Like
(32:32):
really like delicious descriptions offood and they sort of sit in this very
uneasy place alongside like pure disgust.
Like one of the, one of the lines Iwrote was, You described the artery
on a cigarette packet as like askirt steak oozing yogurty plait.
And I just thought it was so interestingto think, like, when you say that food
(32:53):
touches on everything, is that what youmean, that it's not just the food itself?
Lottie (32:59):
Yeah.
That is a particularlydisgusting description, isn't it?
That is a terrible one.
Lucy (33:03):
Isn't it?
Like, but it's so visceral.
I can see it immediately and like, that'salso kind of like, you know, a huge part
of, we all know what you're talking about.
Like we've all seen those packets.
Yeah.
Lottie (33:14):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
It is kind of what I meanwhen it touches everything.
I think I didn't want foodto be like a benign good.
Like I don't, I never wanted it to belike, When she interacts with food,
like, you know, the weight liftsand, you know, and she's good and
her mind can float because I justdon't perceive that to be truthful.
I don't perceive, sometimes, cookingcan be a relief and a meditation.
(33:40):
But, that is a percentage of the time,um, and I just wanted to, um, It to be
pervasive throughout the entire textto kind of manifest all the emotions
because that to me felt more honest.
Lucy (33:55):
Yeah, your use of the phrase benign good there is, that is so accurate I think
because I do think that is how food isportrayed in so much writing about it.
And I think it's kind of seenas this very like cozy, yeah.
But we can't ignore thefact that there are so many.
(34:16):
internal and external factors
Lottie (34:20):
that
Lucy (34:20):
bring discomfort to our thinking and eating.
Lottie (34:23):
Exactly.
But even when it's cosy,like, why is it cosy?
Are we thinking about a childhood and,you know, a dead parent or an absent,
you know, absent parental figure?
Like, why?
I don't think it's ever.
It can feel good.
But I don't think that goodfeeling is ever without depth
and something to explore.
Yeah.
And I think that was really importantfor me for writing a female character
(34:48):
as well with a food interest, that sheisn't a benign good, like her feeding of
people isn't selfless, it's very selfish.
She's getting so much from it and it'snot the nurturing and kind of feeding
of others that is her primary goal.
Lucy (35:03):
And that, and I think what I really liked about the way that you wrote
that is again, it's not, it's not a.
bad thing.
It's not a negative thingor a positive thing.
It's just, it is what it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lottie (35:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was writing and generallywhen I'm writing, I just want
to try and put words on the pagethat feel like they're truthful.
And that feels like atruthful thing to me.
Like I relate to that.
Like when I make, you know, abig lunch with friends or family,
like I enjoy doing, I enjoy eatingthe food, but also I enjoy being
like, look at this, look at it.
(35:36):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah,
Lucy (35:39):
I think it can be very easy given the conversation around this
idea of like food as servitude.
Um, and obviously, you know, for somepeople it is, and that's, that's fine.
But it made me think about what Iactually do get from cooking for people.
Yeah.
And that it is selfish.
Yeah.
And that is to an extent, fine.
(36:01):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Lottie (36:02):
absolutely fine.
Also, I'm kind of like, I'm not thatinterested in food as servitude.
I just don't, I don't want to, I feellike it's just, uh, not a particularly
interesting space to explore.
I don't think that it's, I thinkit exists, like you say, but I just
don't feel like that is contributinganything particularly interesting.
(36:24):
Like if Piglet was just, youknow, a kind of browbeaten person.
Lucy (36:28):
Hmm.
Well, I think it's that it comes back tothe gendered expectations, doesn't it?
Because I feel like food, a servitudeis something that was expected
of women in the home for so long.
I mean, servitude is the wrong wordthere, but it was an obligation.
And actually like, maybe I, causeI, I, you know, I've kind of talked
about this and stuff I've made before.
I have like a bit of a, a weirdrelationship with how much I
(36:52):
enjoy domestic aspects of mylife because it feels like.
Regressive, in a way, like I can'tseparate it from feeling like
I should want more than this.
But actually, positioning it assomething you're doing for yourself
makes it very different and I've neverquite thought, yeah, I've never quite
thought about it from that angle before.
(37:14):
So yeah, that's something new for me.
Lottie (37:17):
Yes, yeah.
Yeah, that's so, that is so true.
But it is hard, isn't it, becausewe all live in this conditioned
environment where it's like, yeah, yeah.
Do I like cooking because I'vebeen told or because I like it?
Lucy (37:29):
Oh my god, it's my eternal, yeah,
Lottie (37:31):
my eternal
Lucy (37:31):
dilemma.
Yeah, and then does it matter?
Do I like it because, yeah, peoplecan see me doing it and it's, I'm,
yeah, showing this great imageof what can be done in the home.
Yeah,
Lottie (37:43):
and then it's like, well, we are what we are.
I'll just enjoy the feeling.
Lucy (37:46):
Yeah, maybe we make ourselves feel bad enough of the time.
Yeah.
Have you ever written?
Non fiction food writing.
I was curious to ask you.
I
Lottie (37:58):
have, but not particularly good non fiction food writing.
I used to, like, in the mid teens,what do you call that decade?
Who knows?
Like, I did some food blogging,but it was mostly terrible.
I relate.
I don't, yeah, I just,
Lucy (38:15):
I feel like often the novels that I've read in the past and there
are so many exceptions to this that Icould immediately sort of prove myself
wrong by saying this but I think thereis this perception of like people who
write novels about food are peoplewho've come at it from this, like, the
idealized place that we were talkingabout and I think I'm really interested
(38:37):
that, you know, I'm interested that,You've primarily, sort of, professionally
used food to create fictional worlds.
I think that's a really unusual, ina sense, place to come from in this.
And it, because we're so used toreading the sorts of descriptions
and writing about food that is inPiglet, that for me, like, felt very
(38:58):
familiar in a non fiction sense.
And so that was really interestingto me, that it was, Fictional.
And I, yeah, I don't quite knowhow to articulate why that feels
significant, but it does to me.
Lottie (39:11):
Yeah.
I think I understand what you meanabout, because in the novel, for the
most part, I was attempting to put asfew words on the page as possible and
be really sparse with my descriptions.
But when we got to the, when it'sin the food sections, that's why.
try to let the writing bloom and kindof exhale and take up space and so maybe
(39:36):
that is, I don't know, maybe it's therelief, that's the sense of relief in
that, in those passages that allows asense of goodness, whereas in the rest of
it I'm being very, or trying to be, kindof fraught and tight and withholding.
Lucy (39:53):
Withheld, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
Maybe that is what's coming across to me.
I think it's also just,it's unusual, or uncommon.
I don't, like, I don't know what the bestway to put it is, but I don't read that
many books where food is talked aboutwith such, like, passion, but also nuance.
(40:17):
It's not just, yeah, it's not justcreating, you're not just using it
to describe a great party, but yeah.
Yeah,
Lottie (40:24):
well I was just thinking about, um, the kind of commonality of
food writing that is mostly positive.
And maybe it's more of a publishingtrend than it is a writer preoccupation.
I think so much of what we readis dictated by what people want to
publish, which is, you know, a verysmall sect of people that are trying
to sell books that have sold before.
Lucy (40:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's very true.
Lottie (40:49):
Not to be too depressing about that.
Lucy (40:51):
No, but it's fair, isn't it?
Like, as much as we want to see it asa kind of, we want to see publishers
as like patrons of the arts orpatrons of culture, at the end of
the day, many of them are just, youknow, Publishing what sells the most.
Yeah,
Lottie (41:05):
yeah.
Maybe our expectationsshould be lower, I don't
Lucy (41:08):
know.
Lottie (41:09):
Yeah, I think it's that complicated position of being
both, where it's like, I want to,but equally, I also want my bonus.
Lucy (41:15):
Yeah, and I think that is like, that's how a lot of publishers
want to be viewed as well.
It's, it is that this, this.
cultural significance attached towhat they do and that's appealing
much as, you know, Piglet makingthe big Ottolenghi spread.
Yeah, absolutely.
(41:36):
Are there any other books or writingin general where you've found how food
is talked about really inspiring or?
interesting or illuminating.
Lottie (41:51):
There's a couple that um, I really enjoyed for what one of them
is particularly food centric andthat's Supper Club by Lara Williams.
I think that's an example of a novelthat disproves your hypothesis where the
food is allowed to be complicated andexpansive and interesting and nuanced,
(42:12):
which I think is Really wonderful.
And I like, um, The Harpyas well by Megan Hunter.
I don't know if you've read that.
Oh, I haven't read that.
Okay, great.
It's really interesting in domesticfood and a kind of sense of putting
together a more virtuous selfby the way you feed your family.
(42:32):
And also has a portrayal in it,which is interesting, um, the way
that she fuses those together.
And Eliza Clarke's boy parts I alsolike for the way it talks about absence.
Of food.
Maybe not talks about butthe way it deals with.
Okay.
I haven't actually
Lucy (42:47):
read that.
Yeah, I've read penance butI haven't read boy parts.
So, yeah.
That's good.
Oh, penance.
Penance
Lottie (42:52):
is on my list.
Is, was that a good read?
Lucy (42:54):
I really enjoyed it.
I listened to it on audio book.
Yeah.
Which was really interestingbecause I felt like it really added,
'cause it's, you know, it's kindof like a pastiche of a true crime.
Yes.
Podcast, right book.
And yeah, and that, yes, exactly.
But obviously, like, listening to it inaudio, really, kind of, I thought that's
Lottie (43:11):
the way to, I felt like brought
Lucy (43:13):
an extra layer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really enjoyed it.
I think she's a great writer.
I found it really horrible and fun.
Yeah.
Lottie (43:20):
Yes.
Horrible and fun.
What a vibe.
Yeah, exactly.
That's very much the boyparts energy as well.
And if you liked Penance,I'm sure you'd like that one.
Lucy (43:28):
Obviously they're very, very different books, but I can see
Supper Club and Piglet maybe somehowexisting in the same universe.
Yes.
Lottie (43:36):
Oh yeah, I think so.
On some level.
Yeah.
They feel in conversationin a way, don't they?
I feel like they'd havemuch to talk about.
Lucy (43:42):
I feel like if Piglet had found Supper Club, that
would have been really good.
Like, she could have happened?
Yeah.
Lecker is hosted and produced byme, Lucy Dearlove thanks to my
guest on this episode, Lottie Hazel.
(44:04):
Piglet is out now.
Published by Doubleday.
As part of the monthly Lecker book club,I'll be writing about the book over
on the Lecker substack and Patreon.
I'd love to hear from youif you've read it too.
Come over to the comments andlet's talk about Vionetta.
And I mentioned in my intro that Lottiewrote a piece for the first Lecker zine.
(44:24):
That zine is still available tobuy and it includes contributions
from so many other amazing people.
Octavia Bright, Holly Gawne, RinaMarijuana, Mina Miller, Rosie
Daskyr, and many, many more.
The link to order that isin the show notes as well.
And you can also get a copy of mysecond zine, Kitchens, if you so desire.
(44:44):
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
Before I go, one more reminderthat you can sign up as a paid
subscriber to support Lecker onApple Podcasts, Patreon and Substack.
Links in the show notes.
And to any paid subscribers whoare listening here, thanks so
much for your continued support.
Thanks for listening.
I'll be back very soon.
This is Lecker.
I'm Lucy Dearlove.
Welcome to the firstLecker episode of 2024.
Yes, I know it's May at this point.
I decided to take a little breakfrom the podcast at the start of
the year as, to be honest, I'vebeen quite burnt out recently.
(00:21):
And, uh, It made sense just to havea little rest and come back renewed.
And that renewal, that break endedup being a little bit longer than
anticipated, but I'm back now.
Thank you for being here with me.
I've noticed there's been a fewnew listeners and subscribers
over the past couple of months.
So I'm really delighted to be back.
(00:41):
that you're joining me and I'dlove to know what brought you here.
I had a real spike in listeners atthe start of the year and I couldn't
figure out where it was from.
So if you can help me solve thatmystery and let me know how you found
out about the podcast if you're a newlistener, I'd love to hear from you.
You can find me on Instagram atLeckerpodcast or you can get in
contact via the Lecker website.
(01:03):
That's at Leckerpodcast.
com
Speaking of my, uh, my burnout,it's probably a good time to mention
that if you are in a position tomake a financial contribution to
the podcast, you can do that onPatreon, Substack or Apple Podcasts.
(01:25):
They all Cost in the region of aboutthree to four pounds a month, or you can
save a little bit on the monthly cost.
If you pay for a year subscription,you'll get access to some subscriber
only content, and more importantly,your support helps make the production
of this podcast more sustainableand essentially possible for me.
(01:47):
I really want to continue makinglacquer as long as I possibly can,
because it brings so much to my life.
It's really helpful to me to beable to cover my costs like website
hosting, music licensing, equipment,and taking a fee for my production.
It just makes a huge differenceas it means I can focus more
(02:08):
on Lecker and less on my otherfreelance work and can make better.
Podcast episodes, essentially.
I've actually got some cool subscriberonly plans coming up this year,
including a new monthly essay seriescalled Scraps, which has just launched.
The first edition is about the Ideal HomeShow and it's available for everybody.
So you can have a little,little trial of it there.
(02:29):
The audio series I'm running on thereat the moment for paid subscribers
is wrapping up this month with fourreally interesting conversations to
listen back to about food packagingthat's called Out of the Box.
And you can find that onSubstack, Patreon as I mentioned.
And if you're not in a position topay for this, that's totally fine.
Thank you for being here as well.
(02:49):
And I'm so grateful toyou for listening as well.
One of the best things you can do to helpme, that costs nothing, is to spread the
word about the podcast, so if you likeit, tell a friend, I'd be really grateful.
And one more thing, before we start, ifyou're in or around London, on the 15th
of May, I'm speaking at a super coolconference at Conway Hall, which is in
(03:12):
central London, called Interesting24,organised by Russell Davies.
It's a series of short talksabout interesting things.
My interesting thing is obviouslyto do with kitchens, which will
come as a surprise to no one.
If you'd like to hear me do a 10 minutetalk about kitchens alongside loads of
other great speakers, get your ticket.
I'll put the link in the show notes.
(03:34):
Okay, finally, on with the show.
This month on the Lecker BookClub, Piglet by Lottie Hazel.
I first came across Lottie's writing whenshe contributed to the first Leckerzine
that I curated and published in 2019.
Plum Jam, a piece of short fictionabout a funeral, an underset
(03:57):
blancmange, and a broken tooth.
I still remember how the pieceunsettled me, placing complicated
family relationships alongsidedifficult or reluctant pleasure
derived from feeding others.
Lottie Or being fed by them.
Lottie's debut novel Piglet came outearlier this year and its writing is
deeply rooted in what food can mean tous physically, emotionally, and socially.
Lottie (04:23):
I didn't want food to be like a benign good.
Sometimes cooking can be a relief anda meditation, but that is a percentage
of the time, and I just wanted it to bepervasive throughout the entire tech.
I
Lucy (04:45):
love talking to Lottie about Piglet so much.
As you'll hear us talk about in theepisode, I found it such an interesting
experience to encounter such luscious,detailed writing about food in a
fictional setting, particularly setalongside scenes of abject discomfort.
You'll know what I mean if you've read it.
(05:06):
The book really made me squirm inan intriguing way, and I loved how
the dishes and tablescapes thatPiglet makes and consumes dress
the set of her home and work lives.
Heads up, if you haven't read thebook, we do talk about specific plot
points in it, so if you'd prefer to bespoiler free, go away and read it first.
and the book does touch sort ofsomewhat implicitly on themes of
(05:30):
body image, weight and some impliedreferences to disordered eating.
So if those topics are inany way sensitive to you just
please take care with listening.
We began with Lottie givingus a quick Piglet synopsis.
Lottie (05:51):
I describe Piglet as a story of appetite and aspiration and it follows
a woman who is nicknamed Piglet in thecouple of weeks before her wedding and in
the days before she's due to be marriedher fiancé confesses this terrible
truth to her that threatens to unravelthe life that she has really carefully
curated for them both and we follow herin the countdown to the day they're to
(06:15):
be married and we follow her unravelingand her trying to digest this truth,
food pun, not intended but inevitablewhen I'm talking about this book, and we
see lots of her kind of grappling happenthrough the lens of food, which is really
important to how she perceives herselfas a person and how she perceives others.
Lucy (06:36):
And so how does she perceive herself as a person?
Lottie (06:39):
I think their class comes into this in a big way in terms of Piglet
comes from kind of like a workingclass, I suppose, family from Derby
and she is doing her best, I think,to distance herself from those people.
Not for, the book doesn't really presentus with any information why she would
(07:01):
be doing that besides the fact thather family have nicknamed her Piglet
and we assume that has a level ofcomplication and pain attached to it.
But it's more a case of we get a sense, wemeet her when she's in a very aspirational
part of her life, like Kit and hisfamily are kind of like middle upper
class and she's trying to assimilate.
And lots of her food behaviours are,you know, lavish spreads, expensive
(07:24):
pieces of meat and wine and alcohol.
So I think that's all part of herperception is that she is kind of affluent
and worthy in the context of her mind.
compared to her family, I suppose.
Lucy (07:38):
I definitely want to come back and talk more about class in a minute.
Um, but just to come back to thesort of writing of the book itself,
when did you start working on it?
Lottie (07:50):
So I started working on it in 2019 when I started my, um,
creative PhD, which that looks atcontemporary food centric fiction.
So I just was like, what would Ireally like to um, research for three
years and just have a great time?
Um, as if I was allowedto do that, it's wild.
(08:11):
And I was looking specifically atnarratives of disclosure and how
food can be used in kind of, anexperiment of satisfaction with
the reader and with the prose.
Um, so I started writing in 2019and really got into my, really hit
my stride when I was allowed togo nowhere like everyone else in
2020 and finished it in that year.
Lucy (08:33):
And so what were you looking at in your PhD?
I remember hearing the title ofyour PhD or reading it somewhere
and being like, oh my god,
Lottie (08:41):
that sounds incredible.
I had a really wonderful time.
I was trying to answer, or atleast explore the question of
the kind of satisfaction cycle.
So, um, specifically in literatureand specifically when food is
used as a device, not necessarily.
I think there are loads of wonderful booksthat use food that aren't necessarily
(09:02):
foodie fiction or, um, like I thinkPiglet is pretty foodie, but there's.
I think food is such a wonderful toolto explore, you know, class, gender,
social dynamics, familial dynamics.
It's just so ripe for creative play.
But circle back to your actual question.
I was trying to work out how disclosurecould integrate with a novel that
(09:32):
used food to offer kind of levelsof satisfaction or release or kind
of unclenching for the reader.
And so in Piglet, I'm really trying torun Kit's confession and how much we know
about that as a reader alongside Piglet'sappetite as it grows and, um, kind of
(09:54):
ask the question of what's satisfying.
Lucy (09:56):
How have readers responded to the fact that, and I don't know if
this is a spoiler, maybe it is, that wenever learn what Kit has actually done?
Have you had people beinglike, why don't we put it
Lottie (10:08):
out?
Mostly really well.
I think my publishers have done areally good job of positioning the book
because I think that if it was packageddifferently you might think it's a kind
of like a will they won't they romp aboutwhether they get married and or maybe
it's kind of more of a crime thriller.
So I think they've done a really goodjob in setting up the expectation that
(10:31):
I'm not going to necessarily followthe contract that is set up between
the writer and the reader at alltimes and that's kind of by design.
But I have also had, I had another oneyesterday, quite a few irate Instagram
DMs being like, I've read the wholebook and it's never said anywhere what
he does so can you please like chopchop what's, what's going on here?
Lucy (10:55):
Do you
Lottie (10:55):
know what he
Lucy (10:56):
does?
Lottie (10:56):
Yeah, I feel like one of the guests at the wedding in a way,
and looking around at everyone onmy table, like in a gossipy sense,
being like, do you know what it was?
Oh, it could have been this.
And speculating.
And in some earlier drafts, I didplay with putting Labeled ending
in being like, this is what he did.
And I read them, I was like,this isn't better for me, for
(11:17):
me to put my suggestion there.
And I'm so much more interested inthe collaboration that I can have
with everyone who reads it in thatthey bring so much to the text.
I, yeah.
Um, really motivated by the blank spaceand the invitation that that leaves.
Lucy (11:33):
Yeah, that's such an interesting way of looking at it.
When you said it could be a crimethriller, it made me realize how
unambitious I'd been in my imaginationabout what he could have done.
Yeah.
I was like, I, I just think he's, he'sobviously just cheated or something,
but no, it could have been a murder.
It is fascinating to hear people's
Lottie (11:51):
like, level of, um, The scale of speculation is wild and it's been
one of my favorite things, I think,doing the press for the book tour to
be like, okay, when it was acquired,um, the publisher who acquired it also
publishes Lee Child and Lee Child'seditor was like, it's murder, right?
And everyone was like, that'stoo much Lee Child for you.
(12:11):
No more.
Lucy (12:14):
And so you talked about how food is such another great, um, food metaphor.
It's, it's a really kind of, it's Thewriting of a book with food positioned in
it is ripe for, um, experimentation andI think that was one of the things that
really struck me about Piglet is like howcentral food is to the kind of general
world building, if that's not too cringea phrase, but, I kind of did an experiment
(12:39):
when I was just like recapping, cause Iread it a couple of months ago and I was
just like flicking through the thingsI'd underlined before we spoke today.
And basically every page that I stopped athad a, and that was, you know, I was, then
I started stopping every few pages andevery single page had something about food
on it, which is kind of extraordinary.
Can you give me some examples ofsome of the ways in which food is
(13:02):
completely central to the book itself?
Lottie (13:06):
Yeah, I find that very hard to answer because
I feel it is the book itself.
I feel like there's not aelement that it hasn't touched.
I feel like when I'm thinking, I supposethe main things that I was trying to
explore, where I feel food is wonderfulat illustrating that, are things like
the gender expectations that surroundwomen, but specifically at the wedding,
(13:33):
which I think is the body plays intothat as well and the physical self and
I think food does so much in that spaceboth in the kind of like the woman
eating but also the woman being perceivedto be eating so that was a big one I
think also kind of social frictionsLike the things that different people
find acceptable or worthwhile to eat.
(13:56):
So I've spoken a lot about Vinessa whenI've spoken about piglet and the kind
of importance of that as a, I thinksocial and cultural touch point and how
people, different people react to that.
I, funnily enough, I foundout that Vinetta in Canada is
apparently a really like high-end.
(14:16):
Like very posh thing.
And I was like, this is, we didn'tdo the sensitivity read for Canada.
Missed a trick.
Lucy (14:24):
I do think it's really, cause V& S is such an interesting,
like British class symbol.
And I think when you, I did write thisdown, um, that there's a line about they
only serve Viennese ironically, whichI think, I just think like encompasses
so much about British food culture andlike class and like the kind of obsession
(14:47):
with wealthier middle class peopleoften having this kind of like obsession
with working class culture and almostlike a cosplay, weird cosplay thing.
So yeah, I do think that, that I cansee why you've talked a lot about it
because I think it says so much to us.
Lottie (15:02):
Yeah, but I also think it underlines the kind of cruelty.
I think that there is For Piglet I thinkthere's a cruelty that she thinks so
freely in that sense that she serves aVianessa ironically because it's so much
of a, not only is she rejecting thosefamilial customs, she's also refashioning
(15:29):
them into something to kind of likestep on them and to lift herself up
and I think it's kind of like, I thinkit's kind of in conversation with what
you're saying about the cosplaying,but there's a kind of sinister element.
It's a ha ha.
Lucy (15:42):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You, she has to make it clear thatshe thinks she's better than it.
Lottie (15:48):
Mm, yeah.
In some
Lucy (15:49):
sense.
Lottie (15:49):
Yeah.
Which I think is, for me, part ofthe reason why I love writing her.
'cause it's part of thesadness for her character.
Mm.
That it's like you are missing out.
Like her family failed her in lotsof ways and she fails her family.
It's, I think that I like writingcharacters that no one has, no one
is the front runner of the goodperson . Um, but I think that.
(16:11):
She really misses out there.
She misses out on Vionetta and she missesout on a closer bond with her family.
But, you know, it's complicated.
They call her Piglet andthat's obviously been damaging.
Lucy (16:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Like you say, nobody is thefrontrunner for the good person.
Nobody comes out covered in glory.
Yeah, and that is one of thereally interesting things about it.
Um, I also find the kind ofdynamic between Piglet and Kit
And how they, how food kind oflike exists in their relationship.
And the example I noted down was when,and I can't remember, I guess maybe this
(16:45):
is after he's made the disclosure to her.
I actually can't remember and youcan probably correct me on this.
Um, but it's when he'smaking the porridge for her.
And she's basically, cause she normallymakes it, like she's very, the kitchen
is very much her domain and shehas specific ways of doing things.
And that's how she kind of.
(17:06):
expresses mostly, mostof her emotions really.
And Kit basically does the porridge wrong.
And I, I really related to, I like, I sawmyself in this in a really negative way.
Like I, I have definitely been guiltyof what she does, which is that he
cooks it, you know, it's too hot.
It burns.
burns, it's the wrong texture, like it'svery like three bears, which is not,
(17:29):
it's not the perfect thing and that'sreally interesting because it felt to
me that that was her way of having powerlike within the class struggle between
the two of them that doesn't reallyneed to be there but is nonetheless,
like would you say that's, that's a
Lottie (17:45):
fair reading?
You're right it comes after theconfession and interestingly enough
to me I don't perceive Piglet and Kitas having a conscious class struggle.
I think that she is with his family as,I think that reading is totally valid.
And I think that surely it must play intotheir relationship as well, because of who
(18:05):
they are and the way they've been shaped.
But for me, that scene is a kind of, It'skind of a domestic tension and fraughtness
that that's what I was thinking aboutat that point was purely kind of the,
I suppose the land grab game of thekitchen of, you know, kits tentative and
(18:27):
I suppose quite brave decision to inhabitthat space because When you call that
behavior out, it's totally unreasonable.
But so, I also feel like it's sounderstandable why she feels so angry
at that point, because it's kindof, all that is, all of her anger
is manifesting via the porridge.
You know, he's betrayed herand also he makes terrible
porridge and it's, life is bad.
Lucy (18:49):
Yeah.
It is really, it was also, I foundit fascinating how, like, Piglet
basically can't get away from food.
Like, it's, it's, it's her, you know,it's her hobby, it's her social life.
It, but it's also her job.
So I guess I'm interested in,was, was she always, did she
always work in publishing for you?
Was that a central part of her?
(19:10):
As, as a character.
Yeah,
Lottie (19:11):
she always worked in food, and there was briefly a bit of catering,
but she moved quite quickly intopublishing because firstly, I have
experience in that, so I'm like, I can bedetailed here, as much as I want to be.
But also I think there's somethingkind of equally foreboding about,
um, someone that knows how to packagefood to readers, and especially in
(19:31):
the food publishing industry, thereare so many diet books or, you know,
various books that aren't necessarilyabout enjoying food and enjoying the
sensation of it as, as an eating.
It's, you know, coded and complicated.
And so I thought that was ainteresting, kind of, sideshow
(19:52):
to be going alongside that.
But I also felt that her monetizingsomething she enjoys feels very
present and very contemporary andvery relevant to the extent where it's
like, well, do I like this anymore?
Or have I just, have I, have I ruined it?
And you know, now I've made it my entirepersonality, but I can't get away from it.
(20:13):
Yeah.
But, um, But yeah, yeah,I feel that as well.
Yeah.
Lucy (20:20):
Yeah, we can't win.
No, piglet can't win.
So maybe if we could just come back to,I know we've talked about it quite a
lot, but just the kind of talk explicitlyabout food and class in the book.
I'm curious.
It really, this sort of readingit really made me think about my
own experiences as somebody thatdefinitely grew up middle class, but
(20:43):
there is like, it's just so nuanced.
And like, when I moved to London, I justhad this completely different experience.
I was around people who had thiscompletely different experience with food.
Like the only time I'd eaten pesto,like up until the age of like 18 was
like in a supermarket salad buffet.
And that's, That was just becausethat was what existed around me.
(21:03):
And like, I think, yeah, you're kindof like how class and food interacts in
your life is dependent on so many things.
So I guess I'm curious if this isn'ttoo personal question, like how your
own experiences kind of impactedhow you wrote about it in the end.
Lottie (21:19):
Yeah.
Oh, I think totally.
But I think that.
If you ask, like, if you ask youthat question, for example, you know
exactly what I'm trying to say becauseI think to a degree, we all have
that journey of whether it's, howeverour culinary horizons expand once
we leave the home, they do expand,and for Piglet it's a class journey.
(21:44):
And I think for most people, at some levelof my parents or whoever was feeding me,
have, they didn't do this, and I'm doingthis and I'm exploring it, I think it's
kind of like the folly of the child,of the younger person, of the younger
generation to be like, I am so awareand cultured and you know, whatever.
(22:06):
I am discovering.
Yes, precisely.
And also, um.
Yeah, that's totally my, um, I think haslots of roots in my experience as well.
Like when I went to university, I was not,I liked to eat, but I wouldn't say I was,
A kind of explorer of the culinary world.
(22:27):
That sounds so terrible, doesn't it?
Um, No, I know what you mean.
Yes, I'm one of the dickheads whois, is being like, I'm so refined
and interested with the food I eat.
But yeah, but I think it's kind oflike an unavoidable, I think that must
happen to everyone in some capacity.
Even if it's just, you know,eating a different type of food.
I don't know, bread or whatever it is.
(22:49):
You, you don't always eat the samethings you've eaten growing up.
Lucy (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, do you know what that is?
That is so true, and I think, I feel likeyou're making the point, and yeah, again
correct me if I'm wrong, that it doesn't,it doesn't really have to be about class,
like it, it sort of is for lots of people,but it also, that is often because we
are poisoned in this country to just be,like, everything is rooted in class, so.
(23:14):
Yeah,
Lottie (23:14):
yeah,
Lucy (23:15):
yeah.
Yeah.
But you're right, it doesn't haveto be about that, it can just
be about a different experienceand a different context.
I wonder
Lottie (23:20):
if there is a way, I can't think of an example where it wouldn't be about
class in some way, because I suppose thequote, bettering of the self by eating
a wider diet, whatever that width is,maybe that always has a class kind of
element to it, even if it's somethingthat's, you know, that doesn't seem to be
(23:42):
particularly coded in an upper class way.
Lucy (23:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I think, but that is the interestingthing about, I think, British
attitudes to many foods is that, andI don't want to get too rude, too
kind of stuck in a rut with this.
I feel like it's something I couldtalk about all day, but like the idea
that, you know, buying a takeawaycoffee is like the liberal metropolitan
(24:05):
elite that, you know, belongs to that.
And it's just so ridiculous thatlike, there are so many countries that
have these amazing rich food culturesand it has nothing to do with class.
Everyone eats well and.
A curiosity about food is apositive thing, rather than seen
as this kind of like, desire toprove you're better than others.
Lottie (24:23):
Yeah, but also I think there's kind of like a very sinister routine,
the division of peoples as well.
It's kind of has a political edge, likeif there's a, the liberal elite drink
coffee and eat avocados, and they're, youknow, ruining the conservative, you know.
I could go on for, but Itotally, I, I get you entirely.
(24:43):
Absolutely.
Lucy (24:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you've touched on this already,but another thing that was very
present in the book is the kind ofrelationship between eating and the
body, which sounds like a really basicthing to say, because obviously there
is a relation, there's a very clearrelationship between eating and the body.
But that was where so much of thediscomfort in reading the book came
(25:04):
for me kind of reading about this.
Yeah.
And it really kind of struck a chordfor me, the idea of we're not able.
To separate the kind of likepublic perception of our
physical body from what we eat.
Like it's kind of always on displayand it's always under scrutiny,
(25:24):
particularly for young women, like notto oversimplify, but that is the truth.
And like the very fact she's calledpiglet is immediate, just immediate kind
of, Like it, you know, it gave me a reallike cringe like inside, like not in a
kind of awkward, just like, Oh God, likeimagine having that nickname that's awful.
(25:45):
And you know that even though if it did,it does come from a place of affection
on some level, it's also like horrible.
I feel like people wouldn't knowthe, yeah, the impact of how that
would feel in the society we live in.
There's not really a question in that,but I guess, yeah, I'm just interested
in, yeah, how it felt to write about thebody in that way, as well as the food.
(26:12):
It was very much positionedalongside each other.
Lottie (26:15):
Essential, I think.
It felt essential to write about that.
And I think all the things that you'vejust, um, very eloquently outlined
were things that I was thinking about.
It was the fact that as an individual,especially as an individual in a,
um, female body, there's a level of.
(26:36):
power that has been wrested from you, thatyou don't get to choose the way you move
through the world in, um, its entirety.
And, No one does, I'm sure, but itfeels like a particularly compromised
position in relation to women and food.
So my key goal for Piglet was for herto be able to use her body in a way
(27:00):
that felt powerful to her and that powerisn't necessarily a positive thing.
We see her struggling with, I suppose,ordered food behaviours, but I was
very keen not to label those thingsas quote bad because I wanted her
just to reclaim a sense of yeahpower and agency via the body even
(27:27):
if that is is unsustainable for her.
Lucy (27:29):
And even if that is, in some sense, quote, socially unacceptable.
Lottie (27:34):
Yeah, exactly.
I guess.
Lucy (27:37):
Also, like, I'm fascinated
Lottie (27:38):
by that socially unacceptable.
I think that plays into the wholequestion, um, and the kind of, issue of
the writing because, like, why is it, why?
There's some extreme, more extreme,quote, eating behaviours in the book,
but still, if you're a passerby, youprobably don't witness all of it, I think.
But I think there's a level of discomfortwith the idea of women that eat.
(28:02):
And I just wanted to put on thatstring and see how far that would go.
Lucy (28:06):
And she, and I feel, you know, Piglet is very much aware.
of the potential for shame around that.
And yeah, one of the most uncomfortablescenes for me was when her colleagues find
her in the restaurant alone and I just,yeah, the kind of like level of exposure
gave me like a sort of full body horror.
(28:28):
And I think that it made me reflect alot on how I think I have some of, I
think some of my sort of thinking andbehaviors around food, like something
I very much keep private because itdoes just feel so exposing to that.
I was like, I never would have sat inthe restaurant and had seven burgers.
Like I would have just gone.
(28:49):
You take them a takeaway.
Yeah.
Don't be an idiot.
But that felt really interestingthat she, she kind of didn't mind.
being perceived in that way but it wasjust when the world collided and people
that she knew saw her doing it that that'swhere the shame came in and i found that
yeah really kind of illuminating yeah
Lottie (29:09):
yes it's interesting that she kind of walks a line of like she kind
of courts the the attention when it'swhen she's anonymous but as soon as she
yes is named it's like oh dear god i'vemelted into this i have to go and die
now because i cannot come back yeah yeah
Lucy (29:26):
yeah exactly Let's talk about the croquembouche, uh, which is the wedding
cake that Piglet chooses to make herself,which is an unhinged thing to do, at
the best of times, which it is not.
Why a croquembouche?
Lottie (29:46):
There was a kind of irresistible pull to the, uh,
French cuisine for the wedding.
I think it says lots about, you know,piglet as a kind of aspirational person.
In the book we discover that Kit'sparents import foie gras from France
because it's obviously illegal in the UK.
(30:08):
Um, and I think there's this,there's the commitment to, I
think it's just a commitment toassimilation and to showing off.
It's a look at me opportunity andirresistibly because it's a dessert you
traditionally smash, I was like, when it.
When we get to the end of the book,like, I need someone to take a
baseball bat to this, and I thought,I just like the inverting of the,
(30:31):
let's smash it together and push onein each other's face to destroy it.
Lucy (30:37):
Yeah, yeah, I think for me, it was kind of, obviously, like it's, like
you say, it's a construction that isvery durable in a sense, because it does
need to be smashed in, but there's alsothis, like, innate sense of fragility.
Because it's such a complicated,delicate thing to make.
And.
It doesn't go to plan, like her making ofit, there's kind of this like, it ends up
(31:03):
being this sort of like, a sass, grog andbouge, which I thought was really, and the
bit, one of the bits I really liked aboutthis kind of, you know, this thread was
her family getting involved in the makingof it, which felt actually really sweet.
In kind of a horrible situation.
(31:24):
Yes, I
Lottie (31:24):
think the croquembouche is really, it's kind of a metaphor for Piglet
herself, it's an overreaching, for noreason, like there's no reason to do this.
And when Franny comes in to try andhelp her with the glue gun at the
end, and it's like, no one cares.
And, yeah, I, I find that really tenderas well, just to be like this, let's
get ready, you crazy, crazy lady.
Lucy (31:44):
And again, like, not to make it all about me, but I definitely, I have not
made a croquembouche, but I definitelyrelated to that idea of when you actually
break it down and you think aboutsomething, you're like, I'm entirely doing
this for myself, this isn't only for me.
Yeah.
And this is only because I want peopleto say to me, aren't you so clever
and brilliant, look what you've made.
100%, exactly, yeah.
(32:06):
Yeah, um, this is something we'vedefinitely touched on already, but I
was so fascinated by how these beautifuldescriptions of food that you kind
of wrote throughout the book, um, youknow, like absolutely gorgeous table
spreads of like wonderful meats andlike plates and salads and, um, Like
(32:32):
really like delicious descriptions offood and they sort of sit in this very
uneasy place alongside like pure disgust.
Like one of the, one of the lines Iwrote was, You described the artery
on a cigarette packet as like askirt steak oozing yogurty plait.
And I just thought it was so interestingto think, like, when you say that food
(32:53):
touches on everything, is that what youmean, that it's not just the food itself?
Lottie (32:59):
Yeah.
That is a particularlydisgusting description, isn't it?
That is a terrible one.
Lucy (33:03):
Isn't it?
Like, but it's so visceral.
I can see it immediately and like, that'salso kind of like, you know, a huge part
of, we all know what you're talking about.
Like we've all seen those packets.
Yeah.
Lottie (33:14):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
It is kind of what I meanwhen it touches everything.
I think I didn't want foodto be like a benign good.
Like I don't, I never wanted it to belike, When she interacts with food,
like, you know, the weight liftsand, you know, and she's good and
her mind can float because I justdon't perceive that to be truthful.
I don't perceive, sometimes, cookingcan be a relief and a meditation.
(33:40):
But, that is a percentage of the time,um, and I just wanted to, um, It to be
pervasive throughout the entire textto kind of manifest all the emotions
because that to me felt more honest.
Lucy (33:55):
Yeah, your use of the phrase benign good there is, that is so accurate I think
because I do think that is how food isportrayed in so much writing about it.
And I think it's kind of seenas this very like cozy, yeah.
But we can't ignore thefact that there are so many.
(34:16):
internal and external factors
Lottie (34:20):
that
Lucy (34:20):
bring discomfort to our thinking and eating.
Lottie (34:23):
Exactly.
But even when it's cosy,like, why is it cosy?
Are we thinking about a childhood and,you know, a dead parent or an absent,
you know, absent parental figure?
Like, why?
I don't think it's ever.
It can feel good.
But I don't think that goodfeeling is ever without depth
and something to explore.
Yeah.
And I think that was really importantfor me for writing a female character
(34:48):
as well with a food interest, that sheisn't a benign good, like her feeding of
people isn't selfless, it's very selfish.
She's getting so much from it and it'snot the nurturing and kind of feeding
of others that is her primary goal.
Lucy (35:03):
And that, and I think what I really liked about the way that you wrote
that is again, it's not, it's not a.
bad thing.
It's not a negative thingor a positive thing.
It's just, it is what it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lottie (35:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was writing and generallywhen I'm writing, I just want
to try and put words on the pagethat feel like they're truthful.
And that feels like atruthful thing to me.
Like I relate to that.
Like when I make, you know, abig lunch with friends or family,
like I enjoy doing, I enjoy eatingthe food, but also I enjoy being
like, look at this, look at it.
(35:36):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah,
Lucy (35:39):
I think it can be very easy given the conversation around this
idea of like food as servitude.
Um, and obviously, you know, for somepeople it is, and that's, that's fine.
But it made me think about what Iactually do get from cooking for people.
Yeah.
And that it is selfish.
Yeah.
And that is to an extent, fine.
(36:01):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Lottie (36:02):
absolutely fine.
Also, I'm kind of like, I'm not thatinterested in food as servitude.
I just don't, I don't want to, I feellike it's just, uh, not a particularly
interesting space to explore.
I don't think that it's, I thinkit exists, like you say, but I just
don't feel like that is contributinganything particularly interesting.
(36:24):
Like if Piglet was just, youknow, a kind of browbeaten person.
Lucy (36:28):
Hmm.
Well, I think it's that it comes back tothe gendered expectations, doesn't it?
Because I feel like food, a servitudeis something that was expected
of women in the home for so long.
I mean, servitude is the wrong wordthere, but it was an obligation.
And actually like, maybe I, causeI, I, you know, I've kind of talked
about this and stuff I've made before.
I have like a bit of a, a weirdrelationship with how much I
(36:52):
enjoy domestic aspects of mylife because it feels like.
Regressive, in a way, like I can'tseparate it from feeling like
I should want more than this.
But actually, positioning it assomething you're doing for yourself
makes it very different and I've neverquite thought, yeah, I've never quite
thought about it from that angle before.
(37:14):
So yeah, that's something new for me.
Lottie (37:17):
Yes, yeah.
Yeah, that's so, that is so true.
But it is hard, isn't it, becausewe all live in this conditioned
environment where it's like, yeah, yeah.
Do I like cooking because I'vebeen told or because I like it?
Lucy (37:29):
Oh my god, it's my eternal, yeah,
Lottie (37:31):
my eternal
Lucy (37:31):
dilemma.
Yeah, and then does it matter?
Do I like it because, yeah, peoplecan see me doing it and it's, I'm,
yeah, showing this great imageof what can be done in the home.
Yeah,
Lottie (37:43):
and then it's like, well, we are what we are.
I'll just enjoy the feeling.
Lucy (37:46):
Yeah, maybe we make ourselves feel bad enough of the time.
Yeah.
Have you ever written?
Non fiction food writing.
I was curious to ask you.
I
Lottie (37:58):
have, but not particularly good non fiction food writing.
I used to, like, in the mid teens,what do you call that decade?
Who knows?
Like, I did some food blogging,but it was mostly terrible.
I relate.
I don't, yeah, I just,
Lucy (38:15):
I feel like often the novels that I've read in the past and there
are so many exceptions to this that Icould immediately sort of prove myself
wrong by saying this but I think thereis this perception of like people who
write novels about food are peoplewho've come at it from this, like, the
idealized place that we were talkingabout and I think I'm really interested
(38:37):
that, you know, I'm interested that,You've primarily, sort of, professionally
used food to create fictional worlds.
I think that's a really unusual, ina sense, place to come from in this.
And it, because we're so used toreading the sorts of descriptions
and writing about food that is inPiglet, that for me, like, felt very
(38:58):
familiar in a non fiction sense.
And so that was really interestingto me, that it was, Fictional.
And I, yeah, I don't quite knowhow to articulate why that feels
significant, but it does to me.
Lottie (39:11):
Yeah.
I think I understand what you meanabout, because in the novel, for the
most part, I was attempting to put asfew words on the page as possible and
be really sparse with my descriptions.
But when we got to the, when it'sin the food sections, that's why.
try to let the writing bloom and kindof exhale and take up space and so maybe
(39:36):
that is, I don't know, maybe it's therelief, that's the sense of relief in
that, in those passages that allows asense of goodness, whereas in the rest of
it I'm being very, or trying to be, kindof fraught and tight and withholding.
Lucy (39:53):
Withheld, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
Maybe that is what's coming across to me.
I think it's also just,it's unusual, or uncommon.
I don't, like, I don't know what the bestway to put it is, but I don't read that
many books where food is talked aboutwith such, like, passion, but also nuance.
(40:17):
It's not just, yeah, it's not justcreating, you're not just using it
to describe a great party, but yeah.
Yeah,
Lottie (40:24):
well I was just thinking about, um, the kind of commonality of
food writing that is mostly positive.
And maybe it's more of a publishingtrend than it is a writer preoccupation.
I think so much of what we readis dictated by what people want to
publish, which is, you know, a verysmall sect of people that are trying
to sell books that have sold before.
Lucy (40:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's very true.
Lottie (40:49):
Not to be too depressing about that.
Lucy (40:51):
No, but it's fair, isn't it?
Like, as much as we want to see it asa kind of, we want to see publishers
as like patrons of the arts orpatrons of culture, at the end of
the day, many of them are just, youknow, Publishing what sells the most.
Yeah,
Lottie (41:05):
yeah.
Maybe our expectationsshould be lower, I don't
Lucy (41:08):
know.
Lottie (41:09):
Yeah, I think it's that complicated position of being
both, where it's like, I want to,but equally, I also want my bonus.
Lucy (41:15):
Yeah, and I think that is like, that's how a lot of publishers
want to be viewed as well.
It's, it is that this, this.
cultural significance attached towhat they do and that's appealing
much as, you know, Piglet makingthe big Ottolenghi spread.
Yeah, absolutely.
(41:36):
Are there any other books or writingin general where you've found how food
is talked about really inspiring or?
interesting or illuminating.
Lottie (41:51):
There's a couple that um, I really enjoyed for what one of them
is particularly food centric andthat's Supper Club by Lara Williams.
I think that's an example of a novelthat disproves your hypothesis where the
food is allowed to be complicated andexpansive and interesting and nuanced,
(42:12):
which I think is Really wonderful.
And I like, um, The Harpyas well by Megan Hunter.
I don't know if you've read that.
Oh, I haven't read that.
Okay, great.
It's really interesting in domesticfood and a kind of sense of putting
together a more virtuous selfby the way you feed your family.
(42:32):
And also has a portrayal in it,which is interesting, um, the way
that she fuses those together.
And Eliza Clarke's boy parts I alsolike for the way it talks about absence.
Of food.
Maybe not talks about butthe way it deals with.
Okay.
I haven't actually
Lucy (42:47):
read that.
Yeah, I've read penance butI haven't read boy parts.
So, yeah.
That's good.
Oh, penance.
Penance
Lottie (42:52):
is on my list.
Is, was that a good read?
Lucy (42:54):
I really enjoyed it.
I listened to it on audio book.
Yeah.
Which was really interestingbecause I felt like it really added,
'cause it's, you know, it's kindof like a pastiche of a true crime.
Yes.
Podcast, right book.
And yeah, and that, yes, exactly.
But obviously, like, listening to it inaudio, really, kind of, I thought that's
Lottie (43:11):
the way to, I felt like brought
Lucy (43:13):
an extra layer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really enjoyed it.
I think she's a great writer.
I found it really horrible and fun.
Yeah.
Lottie (43:20):
Yes.
Horrible and fun.
What a vibe.
Yeah, exactly.
That's very much the boyparts energy as well.
And if you liked Penance,I'm sure you'd like that one.
Lucy (43:28):
Obviously they're very, very different books, but I can see
Supper Club and Piglet maybe somehowexisting in the same universe.
Yes.
Lottie (43:36):
Oh yeah, I think so.
On some level.
Yeah.
They feel in conversationin a way, don't they?
I feel like they'd havemuch to talk about.
Lucy (43:42):
I feel like if Piglet had found Supper Club, that
would have been really good.
Like, she could have happened?
Yeah.
Lecker is hosted and produced byme, Lucy Dearlove thanks to my
guest on this episode, Lottie Hazel.
(44:04):
Piglet is out now.
Published by Doubleday.
As part of the monthly Lecker book club,I'll be writing about the book over
on the Lecker substack and Patreon.
I'd love to hear from youif you've read it too.
Come over to the comments andlet's talk about Vionetta.
And I mentioned in my intro that Lottiewrote a piece for the first Lecker zine.
(44:24):
That zine is still available tobuy and it includes contributions
from so many other amazing people.
Octavia Bright, Holly Gawne, RinaMarijuana, Mina Miller, Rosie
Daskyr, and many, many more.
The link to order that isin the show notes as well.
And you can also get a copy of mysecond zine, Kitchens, if you so desire.
(44:44):
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
Before I go, one more reminderthat you can sign up as a paid
subscriber to support Lecker onApple Podcasts, Patreon and Substack.
Links in the show notes.
And to any paid subscribers whoare listening here, thanks so
much for your continued support.
Thanks for listening.
I'll be back very soon.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.