June 4, 2024 • 46 mins
A reflection on learning – and teaching – the fermented arts at the School of Artisan Food.
You can find a transcript for this episode at leckerpodcast.com.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
You can buy zines on BigCartel. You can also order print-on-demand merch at Teemill.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
This ep isn't sponsored but I was invited to attend the school for free at the press day Thanks to the School of Artisan Food for hosting us. Special thanks to Martha Brown, Sally Ann Hunt and Kevan Roberts for the mini workshops (and the lunch) and to Alison Swan Parente for being part of this episode. Thanks to Emily Leary for all her work in getting us all there.
You can find a transcript for this episode at leckerpodcast.com.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
You can buy zines on BigCartel. You can also order print-on-demand merch at Teemill.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
This ep isn't sponsored but I was invited to attend the school for free at the press day Thanks to the School of Artisan Food for hosting us. Special thanks to Martha Brown, Sally Ann Hunt and Kevan Roberts for the mini workshops (and the lunch) and to Alison Swan Parente for being part of this episode. Thanks to Emily Leary for all her work in getting us all there.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sally Ann Hunt (00:05):
This is Lecker I'm
Lucy (00:07):
Lucy
Dearlove
Sally Ann Hunt (00:07):
so
also, another light bulb moment.
Do you know when you'reputting something on the grill?
And you're trying to stir it and youthink it's a little lost its heat.
All you do is you moveit round your grill.
Because this is going tobe warmer than it is there.
Because that product has actuallylowered that temperature down.
So all you do is you keep moving it round.
Lucy (00:26):
In a yard on Welbeck Estate in Nottinghamshire, Sally Ann Hunt is dancing
between her many different barbecues.
There's a neat red ceramic egg,a long sleek contraption, like a
black stretched limo and an oildrum had a baby, And two historic
looking setups taking centre stage.
Giant iron bowls with fire inthe middle, and various delicious
(00:49):
things on and over them.
A leg of venison, rolled up hispycabbage leaves, a tiny cast iron
skillet of toasting pine nuts, and myfavourite thing of all, a shawarma spiced
cauliflower, imprisoned in a sphericaliron cage, suspended by a serious
looking hook and chain, over the fire.
Sally Ann Hunt (01:11):
When I butchered it, I separated the lean from
the fat to make sausages.
When I make sausages, it hasto be a certain percentage,
a ratio of lean to fat.
Um, usually 80 20 whenyou're going that way.
So I took the fat out of there.
I usually get about 30 kilosof beef fat out of one animal.
And I render it down and I usethat for everything really.
(01:33):
Mainly for frying chips in at home.
It's the, you know, oldfashioned way of doing
it.
I've
done that before, so I've madecandles out of a beef tallow.
Sally
Lucy (01:42):
Sally Ann is a tutor at the School of Artisan Food on the Welbeck Estate.
She teaches barbecue, smoking and curing,pie making, sausages, dairy and foraging.
She's one of the most creative andresourceful people I've encountered in
food and seems to be always looking totry out exciting new techniques and ideas.
Sally Ann Hunt (02:04):
This is called a flamborero or something, right?
And I've got a friend on the estate,told you everything's got a story, called
Joseph Dawes and he makes the armourfor the Royal Family and also all of
the weapons for the Game of Thrones.
So I buzzed him and Isaid, I need one of these.
Ten minutes, well, ten minuteshe said, I'll get you started.
Two hours later, I got one.
(02:25):
Wow.
Yeah.
So all he do with that is when hedoes it, he just trips over it.
Yeah.
You can see.
And it's so you don'tget Burnt on your arms.
Looks the worst.
You'd be able to buy one of these though.
You can buy them.
You can buy them from Kadai.
But they haven't got them in stock.
Do you not have a personal armourer?
Lucy (02:48):
Along with a dozen or so others, I was very kindly invited
to a press day at the School ofArtisan Food earlier this year.
We all attended three mini versionsof some of the courses that the
school offers as a way of learning.
of letting people know aboutthis year's summer school.
Sally Anne's Barbecue Workshop, a breadworkshop with baker Kevin Roberts, which
(03:10):
I have to admit I did not record becausemy hands were immediately so coated
in dough I couldn't touch anything,and a patisserie workshop with Martha
Brown, where we somehow made chocolateand hazelnut amaretti and honeycomb in
a suspiciously short amount of time.
It felt like wizardry.
Martha Brown (03:27):
So you might be able to turn it up.
So the magic number for us Today is 146degrees, so that's the temperature that
we're going to take our caramel to.
Before we take it off theheat and add our bicarb.
And our bicarb is there to give it volume,that's what turns it into honeycomb.
If we were to cook it to 146 degreesand then we were going to just pour
(03:48):
it out into a bowl, it would turninto a rock hard, clear caramel.
But what we want to do is aerateit, and so we're using bicarb.
So yeah, now I'm pretty happy with it.
I'm not going to get any more sugarcrystals around the edge of my pan.
I'm now going to work my way round.
Just like, pushing all of that
(04:10):
down.
I haven't taken the temperatureyet because it's not all
melted and coming together.
Yeah, these induction hobs seemto be hotter towards the back
of them, so you're going to setyour pan and put it off centre.
Nothing's ever just right.
Every oven has a personal temperature.
Lucy (04:25):
Martha actually started out attending the school herself,
doing the Advanced Diplomain Artisan Baking in 2011.
Martha Brown (04:32):
Yeah, so there we go.
So we're at 146.
We've hit the magic number.
So I'm going to remove from theheat, important, you don't want
to be putting your bike on.
Gonna
see the magic.
Gonna see the magic!
So, this is essential.
That's ready.
It's in a location that you don'thave to move it, so you're not
gonna burn yourself moving it.
(04:53):
My bicarb's a little bit lumpy.
I'm gonna pour it all in.
And then I'm gonna whisk violently.
And it's gonna climb.
And then while it's still climbing, I'mgonna pour, sorry people at the back.
(05:16):
Be so careful not to touch anyof this caramel because it will
stick to you while it's burning
you.
And then
so that's, we're now not gonna touch that.
Because we actually don't wantto knock any air out of it.
We want to leave it alone.
It is going to sink.
It completely sinks.
That's normal.
(05:36):
It's magic.
It is literal magic, isn't it?
How can they do that?
I think a lot of people have thatkind of completely foundationless
dream of like, wouldn't it be niceto have a cafe or a something, I
don't know, something food related.
And I think, I think I was like, Imight make biscuits for a living.
I don't really know what.
Lucy (05:57):
Little did you know.
Martha Brown (05:58):
That seems manageable.
That seems manageable.
I was like, yeah, maybe biscuits.
And I think I was just randomly sayingthis to a friend one evening and, uh,
he said, Oh there's no artisan bread inSheffield and I don't think I even knew
what the word artisan meant And so Iwas like Yeah, yeah, there's no artisan
bread in Sheffield and I went home and Igoogled artisan bread And the school came
(06:22):
up and I was like Oh that actually is out,that's such a cool course like, because
I, I, I definitely knew the differencebetween like better quality bread and
the kind of industrial supermarket bread.
Food has always been a massive partof my kind of upbringing and like
I've always been really into foodso I've got kind of Cypriot family
and kind of English Scottish familyon both sides very differently.
(06:45):
A lot of my memories from childhood arewrapped around food whether it's kind of
like Cypriot barbecues and being handeda fork with a bit of like barbecued lamb
on it to run around the garden, you know,by my like Or kind of um my scottish
grand baking, you know, it was a food.
It was always has been massivelytied up in my memories.
(07:06):
Like literally my, my Greek granddadused to come up to to Sheffield to
see us with a suitcase, not full ofclothes, but full of food, you know,
like bread from green lanes and like,just full of halloumi, you know that.
So yeah, I think when I saw the courseand that it wasn't that far away from
me and that maybe I could either likecommute or it wasn't a far move, I kind of
thought like, actually, this is somethingthat I am really interested in, even if
(07:30):
it's not bread specific, at that time.
I was just really interestedin food and hadn't gone to uni.
I'd kind of dropped out of school.
I only had GCSEs, so neverthought that, that I would be
kind of academically studying.
So yeah, I thought the school was myversion of university and a, and a chance
to kind of expand my interest in food.
I totally got obsessed withbaking and bread and sourdough
(07:53):
and pastry while studying.
So the diploma while I was there was ayear long and you could study bread and
patisserie, you could do butchery andcharcuterie, and you could do dairy.
So there's quite a real interestingmix of people and a really
interesting mix of subjects.
It's kind of the school of the fermentedarts and we're all, most of us were kind
of living together in a local village.
(08:14):
So we had all sorts of thingsgrowing in our kind of student
accommodation throughout the year.
So it was a really amazing.
year of discovery of kind offood and fermentation for me.
Lucy (08:24):
When you started the course, was it like an instant, like, oh
yeah, this is where I need to be?
Because it must have, I mean, thatmust have been quite intense to
just suddenly go into the, becauseit's very, you know, you learn
some very advanced skills, right?
Martha Brown (08:37):
Yeah, I think it's really accessible though at the start.
It was a lot of kind ofReal basic techniques.
And also just the, I think what's uniqueabout the course was that it was, there
was such a good amount of practicaltime to really get into the nitty gritty
of just like every single ingredient.
It was, yeah, you know, we spent probablythe best part of a week thinking about
like salt in bread and being able todo lots of tiny little experiments on
(09:00):
the, you know, dough on salt and justthe difference of the water made or
the difference that, you know, thatkind of, theory and time to play, which
I think is really difficult to getprofessionally when you're working in a
bakery and there is production and thereis like this kind of constant cycle.
I was in my early 20s and it was kindof my uni experience and I was like,
(09:21):
so I, I feel like I could have evengot way more out of it than I did.
That time is quite unique in that you'renot working, you're not at work and
you're not having In the grind, yeah, itis really precious and, and the estate
and the school, there's so many otherthings going on, I don't think I stuck
myself into everything that was going onin the estate, um, because also at the
(09:41):
time I was playing roller derby and I,I would like, so I was, I was really,
really, really deep into roller derby.
So I was kind of going back totrain like three times a week.
So I was kind of beingpulled back to Sheffield.
Three times a week?
Lucy (09:55):
Oh my God.
Martha Brown (09:56):
Even, yeah, yeah.
That's so funny.
Roller derby and bread werefighting for my attention.
Lucy (10:02):
And if I guess like, you know, there's a similarity in that you'd
come to both of those things, Iimagine, not really knowing anything
about them or like being, havingto be thrown quite in the deep end
in like a very physical experience.
Martha Brown (10:18):
Yeah, I think maybe that's what I'm into.
Yeah, I seem to get really Uh, intothings and then really go for it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The, the term like that just kindof has haunted me in my personal
life and, and at the bakery waslike, Martha likes the project.
(10:39):
And I think as soon as I've kind ofgot like headspace from one project
and then like, now we can do this.
Lucy (10:48):
This experience of kind of full body immersion learning.
was really the thing that I wantedto explore when I knew that I
was going to make an episodeabout my day at the school.
Watching all of the tutors working andteaching that day, it felt impossible
to me that I could learn to do whatthey can do any other way apart from
(11:10):
watching them do it, having them teachme, working out mistakes and challenges
on the fly, while I tried it too.
Sally Ann's tallow basting,Martha's careful pastry brushing
to stop caramel crystallizing.
I'm just not sure that I couldhave got them right out of
a book or watching YouTube.
(11:33):
I've never really done acooking or baking class before.
I'm quite resolutely self taught in mostof the things that I do with my time.
But recently I've begun to noticeand to consider the limitations of
learning in this way for me personally.
And to think more about the valueof physically handing down or
receiving knowledge and skillsin the presence of other people.
(11:57):
What do you think the value wasin learning those skills in the
environment that you did, likein s in such a hands on way?
Because I sort of feel like we'rein this age where, in theory, you
can kind of learn anything froma book or from a YouTube video.
It's actually like, in practice,I don't know if that's So I was
(12:18):
interested to know what your thoughtsare on that in, in terms of like
bread and pâtisserie in particular.
Martha Brown (12:24):
I think like, it is amazing the amount of information
there is online now and actuallyhow accessible a lot of it is.
But I think, And actually, I've learntso much from online, like, I took apart
a gearbox of a mixer because it wasbroken and I was like, well, I found a
YouTube video, I may as well follow it.
(12:45):
I stripped out this gearbox of amixer, I stripped out the gearbox
of a mixer, I found a broken cog, Iordered the part, and then I literally
just watched the YouTube video inreverse to put it back together.
Lucy (12:57):
Well, that's incredible.
Martha Brown (13:00):
And it worked, so like, totally, it's something that
is completely methodical and there iseffectively one way of doing something.
I think like, that is the, the greatthing about kind of like online learning.
I think food, and especially baking,there is just so many variables.
(13:20):
And if you're watching, you know, evenif you're reading a recipe in a book or
you're following a method on a video, Youare reading or seeing a single, a single
kind of way that you can do that process.
And actually there are so many variables,whether it's the temperature of your
kitchen or the equipment that you'reusing, or the, the heat of your hands
(13:41):
or how strong your fingers are, youknow, there's so many variables.
And also what you're seeing is the verybest outcome for that person or that
person who's produced that product or thatrecipe, and there's so much in between,
and just because it doesn't turn out.
That way doesn't mean that it's wrongor bad, or it's not going to taste
nice, but there's that, Oh, I haven'treached that, that perfection, that goal.
(14:05):
I think a lot of the time when you're,when you're looking at online things,
especially on social media, whereas Ithink learning in an environment that
is not only face to face teaching,but in a group situation where you're
learning with other people, you seeall that gray area and you kind of can
really, you dissect what's happenedand evaluate and problem solve.
(14:28):
I think it's that like problem solvingbrain, especially with bakery, that is
so essential, whether it's at home orwhether you're baking professionally.
And I think that's so hard tounderstand solo when you're kind of
at home learning and just being ableto see the different outputs and then
be like, Hmm, what happened here?
(14:49):
Do you know what I mean?
Like just, just seeingthe variation, I think.
alone is so useful.
Lucy (14:55):
I hadn't actually thought about it from that angle and that's so
true, like the idea that, yeah, you'rereducing the process to its outcome
or its output only, but actually like,in learning, the benefit is, yeah.
What you're figuring out along the way.
That reminds me of whenwe made the honeycomb.
(15:16):
And I instantly was just like, oh,ours doesn't look like Martha's.
So, something must have gone wrong.
And that's exactly how I would havereacted if I'd made that at home.
And I'd watched a video or like,seen a picture or whatever.
I'd have been like, oh, mine's bad.
But then you were like, oh no,it's just like It's going to look
fine on the inside, it's just thebubbles on the top aren't that big.
(15:37):
And like, just even having that, like,there are actually different ways
for this to look and like, this mightbe the reason why this has happened.
Yeah, it's hard to troubleshoot inthat way, I think, independently.
So it's really valuable to havethat experience in the room.
Martha Brown (15:51):
I think reassurance is a massive thing that you get
from a face to face teacher.
Like, I was teaching Fred last weekend,and You know, quite a few people were
being like, mine looks different to yourswhen we were kneading our dough and just
for me to be able to go, cool, you needmine now and I need, I'll need yours just
so we can both feel each other's doughand then instantly they've touched it and
(16:12):
they're like, Oh yeah, they feel the same.
And it's like, yeah, they do.
It's just, I like when you've been bakingfor a while, you just get nonstick hands.
It's just like magically happensone day and you're like, dough
doesn't stick to you in the sameway as it does when you're learning.
Oh my God.
Mine looks smoother and, you know, andkind of different from other people's,
(16:34):
but it was just because I, I was touchingthe dough in a slightly different
way to stop it looking as sticky.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's that kind of, You can gointo instant kind of like, spiral of
like, mine is going wrong at home.
When actually, it could, it couldbe exactly like the tutors in
terms of like, quality or texture.
Yeah, totally.
Lucy (16:56):
Do you, did you have any experiences, I mean, I guess it's quite
a while ago now and a lot has happened,but did you have any experiences
like that when you were learning?
Martha Brown (17:03):
Yeah, I definitely remember watching our tutor kind
of, I think it was, it was justlike pre shaping dough and, and it
just wasn't sticking to his hands.
And I was just like, how is this possible?
It's like, it's magic, like what the hell?
It was so, yeah, or looking into a mixeras a dough was developing and like our
tutor Wayne would be kind of describingwhat he was seeing and I was like, I
(17:27):
literally have no clue how he can like,it's like he's dough whispering and he
understands the dough from seeing it.
Whereas at the time I like, it justlooked like lots of ingredients
sloshing around a mixing bowl to me.
Whereas I now have that knowledge.
And that comes from, from thingsbeing pointed out to you as you
learn and from repetition and, um,kind of, yeah, knowing the process
(17:52):
through to the end and then beingable to start to see that development.
you know, earlier in the process.
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
I have like strong memories ofbeing told things and kind of not
being able to see them at the time.
And now it's something that like, I'mprobably doing to other people by just
saying, look, you can see it beingdoing this and they're nodding along.
And I'm thinking, are you good?
(18:13):
Do you know?
It's all right.
But I'm going to tell you anyway, because
Lucy (18:15):
one day you'll look back on this moment and be like,
Martha Brown (18:18):
yeah, yeah, totally.
I think I'm a reallypractical and visual learner,
and I actually
think it really helps me then learnin a more academic way if I've
had an experience of the process.
I really struggle to learn completely,theoretically, about anything, but
once I have a bit of an experienceof something I can then read and
(18:41):
devour information written that Iwould not have been able to do before.
Lucy (18:51):
I think somehow I had thought of the school in quite a romanticised way because
I had decided that I wanted to tell thisstory about learning how to make food in
a hands on way and that being embodied.
Sensual, almost.
(19:11):
And I think this made sense whenMartha and I had a conversation
because of her personal experiencesand approach to learning alongside
her professional experience.
And this was linked in my mind to the ideaof skills we used to have relating to food
making and production that stopped beingpassed down for one reason or another.
(19:35):
Quite often when I'm makingsomething for Lecker, I'm
slightly unclear about what it is.
What my point even is.
Everything I make starts with beingcurious about something, but generally I
begin working on it without knowing fullywhat I actually want to say about it.
Quite like starting here, althoughit can feel very uncertain.
(19:56):
It's fun, it's satisfying whenit comes together, sometimes
against the odds or so it feels.
And generally I'm kind of lucky.
Or cocky, I suppose.
Enough to figure it out on the fly.
And then it all comes out in the wash.
But sometimes this approach resultsin asking interviewees questions
that are extremely confusing to them.
(20:18):
When I interviewed Alison SwanParenti, the founder of the School
of Artisan Food, we found ourselvesslightly at cross purposes.
Because what I was asking her aboutwhat the school did and the basis
on which it was founded, It justdidn't make sense to her at all.
Alison Swan Parente (20:36):
Kat, uh, I'm not quite sure what you're asking me there.
Are you asking me I guess just,
Lucy (20:43):
was it, did, was it, how can I rephrase it more, um, it was more
just coming off the back of notnecessarily knowing how the passing of
information previously happened whenit came to learning how to make things.
And was that a gap thatyou wanted to fill?
Alison Swan Parente (21:04):
Yes, it was.
But when I started the Schoolof Artisan Food, It really
wasn't about cooking skills.
Um, it was about making skills really.
And, and that sounds a bit kind ofprissy to put it that way, but I was
quite interested in mass production.
It was to do with how to make breadfor the sake of making a staple.
(21:28):
And so really, what I'vealways been interested in is
establishing small businesses.
with what we produce, whatwe teach in the school.
So it really is roots into work.
So it's so that you can work in somebodyelse's small business or you can
start a small business of your own.
So it's much more thatthan domestic cooking.
(21:49):
The first thing we thought of wasteaching people how to make food that's
going to produce a living for them.
That's a kind of dignified livingand a living that is both creative
and pretty helpful to other peopleand good fun and producing, you know,
it's good for the culture reallyto have nice food that tastes nice.
(22:09):
It's um, what's wrong with that?
I didn't have very much to dowith schools or artisan food
before I founded the school.
I was a child psychotherapist and I workedin the national health service, but.
It is actually a very logicalprogression from being a child
psychotherapist to opening a food school.
(22:32):
Because one of the things that Ifound working with challenging and
difficult and usually very niceadolescents was that they were very
much helped by having something to do.
And that, something thatthey could really succeed in.
And so one of the reasons that I startedthe School of Artisan Food was, to do
(22:53):
with providing roots into work for peoplewho find it hard to get that together.
When we were founded, we reallythought we were going to be teaching
fermentation more than anything else.
And if you think about it,what we're doing is thinking
about fermentation a lot.
We're thinking about the way that breadis made through a fermentation process.
(23:14):
Cheese, clearly, there's evena little bit of fermentation in
salamis and things like that.
So, Really, in a way, one of thebenefits is, is really exposing people
to the miracles of nature in a way.
Just how, if you put several ingredientstogether, they produce these wonderful,
(23:35):
very simple ways to feed you andhelp you, help make you healthy.
But they are very simple.
I think that one of the benefitsthat we can take from them.
pass on is that good food isactually incredibly simple.
One of the things wasjust a scarcity of skills.
You know, I'd started a bakery.
We wanted to make long fermentationbreads and there was very, very few
(23:59):
people in the country at that point.
I mean, it's hard to believe now.
who knew how to do it.
There were two bakeries in Londonthat were producing artisan bread.
There was Andrew Whitley up in Malmobyin Cumberland producing artisan bread
and there were very very few other peopledoing it and they didn't know how to
do it or where they should be doing it.
So a school was really a place to um,teach, methods that were really dying
(24:26):
out and we managed to do that actually.
As soon as we built the school itbecame clear that it was a place for
people who had really wanted to passon their skills but didn't have the
infrastructure in order to do thatand so we built Uh, we had a capital
project, building the building, but wealso, you know, put in place a booking
(24:49):
system and all of those things, whichdid make it much easier for people.
So partly I started the school to providea place where people could teach, rather
than a place where people could learn.
So it was obviously started withboth of those, but the teaching has
been a very, kind of, um, primary.
Lucy (25:08):
Mmm, that's really interesting.
And I suppose, obviously, the, theside advantage is that you would have
access to great bread, which, if that'ssomething that you were keen to eat, that
feels like a great Was this somethingthat you had learned to make yourself
in the process of setting up the school?
Alison Swan Parente (25:25):
I had, I'd learned to make good bread
a long time ago in America.
I was living in a communal household.
Lots of people in thehousehold baked bread.
The men baked the bread, andso it was quite inspiring.
And it was pretty good bread.
It wasn't actually reallygood bread that we made.
(25:47):
It was, um, yeasted.
It wasn't long fermentation.
But it was much, much better than anythingthat you could buy in a supermarket.
I'm really keen on that stillbeing something that's, you know,
in the general culture, you know.
But the school itself, the thingthat differentiates itself from or
differentiates the school from otherplaces is really that we're interested
(26:12):
in pre industrial techniques with food.
That's what artisan skills are really.
They're, uh, skills that, um, have alot to do with knowing where things come
from, knowing the feel of things, knowinghow to make them, knowing what their
history is, and all of those things.
Lucy (26:32):
It's funny listening back to this, having finally worked
out what the episode is about.
And considering that Alison had justcarefully explained to me that her
work with the school had been entirelybusiness focused, I still just couldn't
help myself trying to burrow in herpersonal story, searching for hints of
(26:52):
skills being passed down hand to hand.
I think it's really becauseI like so many of us.
I have such an emotional connectionto making food, and also it's not
how I make my living day to day,which probably allows me to rose
tint it slightly, or quite a lot.
And I'm so grateful to Alison for beingso generous in really listening to me,
(27:15):
really deeply considering the angle thatI was trying to come from, but then very
clearly clarifying and explaining herposition and the school's so clearly.
I learnt a lot from it.
And She actually did reflecta lot more on her personal
experiences of learning to cook too.
Alison Swan Parente (27:33):
We were talking about the difference between learning
about food from other people and in thecompany of other people and learning
about food remotely and through cookbooksand what those differences are and I
was thinking about it and I think thatI learned some of my actual cooking
skills from cookbooks much more than anyother way because You know, everybody
(27:56):
has their own cookbook, but people lovea particular cookbook that's helped
them along and mine was Julia Child.
So I just loved following thoserecipes because she goes, and then
you do this, and then you get hiswooden spoon, and then you do this,
and in the end, it's pretty good food.
So she's a fantasticallygood step by step tutor.
(28:18):
And I did actually really enjoyed doingthat on my own and making the mistakes.
So having classes is avery, very different thing.
There's much more to a class in a way.
There's much more, uh, interms of human contact.
There's much more in the way of beingable to share with people how things work.
(28:39):
feel and how things taste but I thinkI actually think both of them are very
good ways to learn to make food andum, uh, that a cookbook in a way on
your own is one thing and a cookingclass is an entirely different thing
and both of them are pretty good.
I'm pretty old, I'm a post warbaby and the women of my mother's
(29:02):
generation had learned to cook inquite a creative way because they
didn't have much to cook with.
They remembered rationing, they rememberedactually cooking a lot of stuff from
allotments and gardens, and so the kind ofcooking that I learned was pretty frugal.
And that was a great influence on me,but also there was another influence,
(29:23):
which was the kind of wonderful 50scooking that went on in my mother's
kitchen if she gave a dinner party.
Every day she would cook wonderful,kind of, you know, good, wholesome
food, but a dinner party wasan entirely different matter.
Lucy (29:39):
What would she make?
Alison Swan Parente (29:40):
Baked grapefruit with a glacé cherry on the top, first course.
Second course, eitherkebabs made with a tent peg.
Do you remember those kind ofscrew, metal screw tent pegs?
Lamb, and then a pepperwhich was really unusual.
I mean you had to go toWorthing to get a pepper.
(30:01):
Then, uh, a bit of tomato and a mushroom.
And straight into the oven.
So that was a verysophisticated second course.
Or there was also tuna bake, whichyou make by putting one can of
tuna, one can of Campbell's mushroomsoup, one packet of crisps, and a
(30:23):
lot of mousetrap cheese on the top.
Again, in the oven.
Success!
And I can't rememberwhat her desserts were.
By that time, you know, youwere completely floored.
Lucy (30:36):
The ten peg kebab is inspired.
I love that.
Alison Swan Parente (30:40):
It's very good.
And then she also had some verygood cookbooks, really, to speak
to what you're interested in today.
So she did actually I don't think mymother ever went to a cooking class.
She was quite competitive with her otherfriends, so they would talk about cooking.
But she did have thecookbooks that everybody had.
(31:01):
There was Constance Spry's cooking.
She also had the PenguinElizabeth David cookbooks.
And she taught herself from those, andshe taught herself very well from those.
Lucy (31:14):
It's really interesting that she, you talk about her learning from you.
from books, I guess, ratherthan from her parents.
I mean, obviously I don't want tomake any assumptions about what her
relationship with her parents werelike, but that in context of what you're
saying about pre industrial food isquite interesting that that almost has
the, the passing down of informationfrom generation to generation hasn't
(31:36):
always been that fluid or, um, seamless.
Alison Swan Parente (31:41):
I don't know.
where she learned to cook or whather relationship was with her mother.
She never talked about hermother or what her relationship
was with her mother's cooking.
She talked about her motherbut she never talked about
the food that her mother made.
Lucy (32:00):
To come back to this idea of creating roots into work, this was
something Martha, somewhat unexpectedlyto her, put to practice very, very
quickly into her time at the school.
Martha Brown (32:15):
A few months after the course, or even while the course was
going on, I actually kind of founda shop in Sheffield and you had to
write a business plan as part of thecourse and, uh, Kind of was like,
Oh, we'll, we'll look at rents.
We'll look at shops and see what's around.
And it kind of turned from a completemade up scenario to actually a reality.
(32:36):
So yeah, I went from not thinking,yeah, it's a bit kind of.
ridiculous, I think, and not theideal way to start a business.
I think like, go and work in bakeries,get lots of professional experience,
make mistakes in other people'sbusinesses, do you know what I mean?
Like, rather than your own.
But yeah, so I left the coursein July 2012 and opened in
(32:59):
September, uh, in November 2012.
So I just kind of got the keysliterally like a month after leaving.
And yeah, opened up you.
tiny bakery.
It was kind of in a retail shop.
So it was all one space.
So I wasn't kind of having to bakesomewhere else and then transport it.
It was just a single room.
Everyone could see the process.
(33:20):
Everyone could see what was goingon, but that kind of felt manageable.
You know, it wasn't big, scary,rent, big, scary production unit.
So yeah, Yeah, set up, was in that shopfor two years, moved to a bigger premises,
opened a cafe, opened kind of a restauranty cafe upstairs, expanded into the shop
next door, did bread classes and supperclubs and pizza nights and markets
(33:44):
and it just kind of grew organically.
over time.
And actually a lot of what I enjoyedabout it was the business development
as well as the kind of, I guess there'sthat creativity in that, and then
there's also the creativity in theproduction and the product development.
And they were the two thingsI kind of loved the most.
It was never that I was particularlyinterested in being a business owner.
(34:07):
That was just, um, a thing that, thathappened and quite significantly as well.
Yeah.
So I did that for, for 10 years, kind ofhad 30 staff, uh, kind of across three
floors of a building and out in the yardand everyone was kind of packed into
whatever little space we could have.
And yeah, I've run through COVID reallywell, but I think like that really kind
(34:32):
of, Weighed on me and took it out of me.
And while I really wanted, I had so manyexciting grand plans for the business,
I think I kind of got to the pointwhere I was like, I think I probably
need to start thinking about lifeoutside of the bakery and what else.
I could do or have headspace for.
So yeah, I sold it after 10 years,had a bit of time off and then found
(34:55):
myself back at the school last summer.
So kind of summer 2023 saying,what kind of jobs have you got?
Have you got anything?
Like, I'm just quite interestedin, like, I could just come and
help out or is there teaching?
And then they were like, Oh, actuallywe need a patisserie and vinnoiserie
teacher on our foundation degree.
And so I was like,amazing, that sounds great.
(35:17):
So I've been back at the schoolsince last summer teaching, but also
working as a technician, kind ofsupporting other tutors on courses,
um, doing that kind of organization.
And I've really enjoyed both.
I really enjoy that kind of organizationside and then kind of, I guess I
know what what teachers need becauseI'm also doing the teaching, um,
which is a really nice balance.
(35:37):
And so when
Lucy (35:38):
you started teaching.
Yeah.
What was that like to go fromkind of student to teacher?
Martha Brown (35:44):
I think it definitely again took me a little while to really
understand the kind of points in the daywhere like, someone was going to go and
do something before I'd said, and that youneed to kind of catch those or give those
little tidbits of advice, like, beforesomething happens, because it's not like
(36:04):
if you're stood in front of a class andyou're saying things to people and you're
hoping that they understand all your,your, your kind of thinking they are.
When you're, when you're teachinga practical class, everyone
has to go away with a product.
And actually if someone is fallingbehind, you can't just abandon them.
I mean, it's like, we've got to moveas, as fast as the slowest person
in the room, which is, which is.
(36:26):
Totally fine.
And actually there's a problem withbeing effectively too quick and
not listening at the same time.
So it was a hundred, it was a massivelearning experience for me, but
also, I guess I knew what had beenuseful for me when I was learning.
So I could kind of try and, Yeah, like Ieven think that from when I was learning,
(36:48):
I remember kind of scribbles on bitsof paper that tutors did to describe
kind of fermentation or a wheat berry.
And like, every single class Iwould draw the same image that I
think is probably ingrained in mybrain from when I was learning.
Lucy (37:01):
Yeah.
Martha Brown (37:01):
Because, but that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean to say that.
everyone in the room learns thesame way as I do, so I think you've
really got to have a range of ways ofexplaining things or demoing things.
And that's also the nice thing aboutbeing in person, you know, if something's
not working for you, the teacher shouldreally be able to be like, okay, try
this instead and offer that range of,of different methods and techniques,
(37:27):
because there is so many in Brad andeveryone probably teaches in a different
way and everything will kind of.
Yeah, things will click for people,I think, in a different way.
Lucy (37:37):
What is it, do you think, that makes people really good at that?
I
Alison Swan Parente (37:43):
don't know.
I think some people are good at teachingand some people aren't good at teaching.
I mean, I think that's true if yougo to any school in the country,
you'll see there are good teachersand not such good teachers.
But I think in order to be evenbegin to be a good teacher, you
have to really be interested inyour subject and like your subject.
And you have to be able to transmit thatenthusiasm and, and all of those feelings
(38:08):
about what you're doing to other people.
One of the things we've been incrediblylucky about with this school is that,
The people who started teaching here,really from the beginning, started
teaching because they really lovedtheir subject and they really didn't
want to leave the world withouthaving taught it to other people,
(38:29):
taught their skills to other people.
And so we've pretty much always hadvery good, very enthusiastic teachers.
Lucy (38:38):
I think I agree with this idea that some people are good at
teaching and some people aren't.
And I also think that Somepeople love to learn, and some
people aren't that bothered.
For the people that love to learn, forthem, us maybe, would I tentatively say
this about myself, it's impossible toever really stop wanting to learn new
(39:02):
things, to throw yourself into them.
Martha's back in the classroom herself.
You've now Gone back to learningfull time, well, full time again.
What prompted the decision tostudy interior architecture?
Martha Brown (39:17):
I think, so I did, I guess I ended up doing
a lot of it in my own business.
I kind of, I guess, well, a lot of people.
Who, I don't know how, a lot of peopleseemingly have the money to employ kind
of interior design stuff, but like Ididn't, but also I really wanted to do it.
I really enjoyed designing the spaces,even the kind of really functional
(39:38):
spaces, the kitchens and working outthe workflows and how we could be
efficient because we weren't in a bigkind of rectangular warehousy type shape.
We were in kind of small, old terraceshops where it was really important to be.
I just think I really enjoyed gettinggeeky with it and working tessellation of,
you know, how things would fit together.
(39:59):
And actually as part of the, the kindof application for uni, I had to write
a personal statement and I am reallyterrible at writing anything like that
or about myself, but like the kind of,it was quite weirdly cathartic to think
back and think actually food and designor spaces have always been really part
(40:21):
of my existence, even as like, a child,like I designed my room when I was 11 and
picked all the colors and the furniture.
And then when I was 14, I wanted tomove into a bigger room downstairs.
So I was like saved upand bought the furniture.
Like I poured over the Ikeacatalog when I was like in my early
teens and would kind of draw overfurniture and then like redesign it.
(40:42):
And then, and I just hadn't reallythought that that was, It's not a strange
thing to do, but like an interest,it was just something that I did.
And then when I look back, I was like,Oh, actually, maybe I've actually
been into this for quite a while.
And yeah, I, I kind of, I, I didn'tfinish my A levels, um, cause I got,
I started feeling well after GCSEs.
It's about 16 and then ittook a year and a half, I was
(41:04):
diagnosed with chronic fatigue.
And so actually when everyoneelse was going out into the world
and going to uni, my kind of lifeand world shrunk quite a lot.
And actually then home became reallyimportant and it was where I could create
things and where I could, it was thething that I had control of, I guess.
So actually cooking and myhouse or my interior space.
(41:27):
yeah, was the thing that I had accessto, which now makes a lot of sense
that maybe that's why I'm interested.
I'm also very affected by spaces,whether it's like architecture or the
design of things or the feel of things.
I think that's always, um, part ofmy Yeah, uh, part of the world that I
(41:49):
kind of feel and see, I see the likelittle things, um, and so it's quite
nice to be delving into that now.
But definitely feels related.
Lucy (41:58):
You have been doing this work with the school for quite a while now,
and on sort of reflecting back, whatdo you think was it about everything
you'd learned as a psychotherapistthat made it such a logical step?
Alison Swan Parente (42:15):
I think that I'm very interested in what makes people
tick, but I'm particularly interestedin the social conditions, not just the
emotional conditions, but the socialconditions that make people tick.
Because I, I started off as apsychotherapist working with children,
(42:38):
but then I did a lot of work withthe Women's Therapy Centre in London.
And so, that was in the, itwas founded in the late 70s.
And we were a particularlyfeminist enterprise.
We were thinking about women's psychology.
Not just because of, um, parentalinfluences and psychodynamic
(42:58):
influences, but also the socialinfluences that meant that women
were showing so many more psychiatricsymptoms under certain conditions.
And so we were thinking that if you'rethinking about women's psychology,
you have to think about it in a socialcontext and in a political context.
(43:19):
And I think that I've alwaysbeen interested in looking at
food in the same kind of way,that it isn't just for eating.
You have to look at how it's produced,why it's produced, who it's produced
by, and think about it both sociallyand politically in order to understand
how to get rid of barriers to healthand to think about how we can think
(43:45):
about, for example, the food systemAnd how it affects things like climate.
All of these things are not just todo with eating or farming or producing
food, they're to do with big systems.
And I don't think you can teach theslightest thing around food without
knowing a lot about its context.
(44:06):
So I think that, that's a reallytorturous way to go from psychotherapy
to food, but it is to do with thinkingabout very visceral things, which is how
we feel and how we, but also to thinkabout how many different influences
there are over those primary processes.
Lucy (44:34):
Lekker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy Dearlove.
Thanks to Martha Brown and Alison SwanParente for being part of this episode.
And also to Sally Ann Hunt, KevinRoberts, and everyone else at the
School of Artisan Food, especiallyEmily Leary, who organised us all being
there on the day that we were invited.
It was such a great day, I loved it.
You can find out more about theSchool of Artisan Food and the courses
(44:57):
they run on their website, as wellas the diplomas and longer courses.
They do lots of short half day courses inthings like ice cream and pork pie making.
Not together, yet.
And Just a really, I think it wouldjust be a great way to spend a bit of
time in the beautiful countryside wherethe school is on the Welbeck estate.
(45:18):
There are also still places on thisyear's four week summer school, though
accommodation is now full you can stilldo it as a non residential student.
Takes place in July and Augustand is led by the three tutors.
that we met Martha Brown, Sally AnnHunt and Kevin Roberts, so we'll
cover lots of fascinating stuffrelating to meat, wheat and dairy.
(45:39):
Again, you can find out moreabout that on the School of Art
Assigned Food website, and if you'reinterested, get a move on because I
think there's only a few places left.
The music in this episodeis by Blue Dot Sessions.
Before I go, I One reminder thatyou can sign up as a paid subscriber
to support Lekha on Apple Podcasts,Patreon and now on Substack too.
(46:03):
Links are in the show notes.
Hello to any paid subscriberswho are listening here.
I'm so grateful for your support.
Thank you.
And thanks to all of you for listening.
I'll be back very soon.
This is Lecker I'm
Lucy (00:07):
Lucy
Dearlove
Sally Ann Hunt (00:07):
so
also, another light bulb moment.
Do you know when you'reputting something on the grill?
And you're trying to stir it and youthink it's a little lost its heat.
All you do is you moveit round your grill.
Because this is going tobe warmer than it is there.
Because that product has actuallylowered that temperature down.
So all you do is you keep moving it round.
Lucy (00:26):
In a yard on Welbeck Estate in Nottinghamshire, Sally Ann Hunt is dancing
between her many different barbecues.
There's a neat red ceramic egg,a long sleek contraption, like a
black stretched limo and an oildrum had a baby, And two historic
looking setups taking centre stage.
Giant iron bowls with fire inthe middle, and various delicious
(00:49):
things on and over them.
A leg of venison, rolled up hispycabbage leaves, a tiny cast iron
skillet of toasting pine nuts, and myfavourite thing of all, a shawarma spiced
cauliflower, imprisoned in a sphericaliron cage, suspended by a serious
looking hook and chain, over the fire.
Sally Ann Hunt (01:11):
When I butchered it, I separated the lean from
the fat to make sausages.
When I make sausages, it hasto be a certain percentage,
a ratio of lean to fat.
Um, usually 80 20 whenyou're going that way.
So I took the fat out of there.
I usually get about 30 kilosof beef fat out of one animal.
And I render it down and I usethat for everything really.
(01:33):
Mainly for frying chips in at home.
It's the, you know, oldfashioned way of doing
it.
I've
done that before, so I've madecandles out of a beef tallow.
Sally
Lucy (01:42):
Sally Ann is a tutor at the School of Artisan Food on the Welbeck Estate.
She teaches barbecue, smoking and curing,pie making, sausages, dairy and foraging.
She's one of the most creative andresourceful people I've encountered in
food and seems to be always looking totry out exciting new techniques and ideas.
Sally Ann Hunt (02:04):
This is called a flamborero or something, right?
And I've got a friend on the estate,told you everything's got a story, called
Joseph Dawes and he makes the armourfor the Royal Family and also all of
the weapons for the Game of Thrones.
So I buzzed him and Isaid, I need one of these.
Ten minutes, well, ten minuteshe said, I'll get you started.
Two hours later, I got one.
(02:25):
Wow.
Yeah.
So all he do with that is when hedoes it, he just trips over it.
Yeah.
You can see.
And it's so you don'tget Burnt on your arms.
Looks the worst.
You'd be able to buy one of these though.
You can buy them.
You can buy them from Kadai.
But they haven't got them in stock.
Do you not have a personal armourer?
Lucy (02:48):
Along with a dozen or so others, I was very kindly invited
to a press day at the School ofArtisan Food earlier this year.
We all attended three mini versionsof some of the courses that the
school offers as a way of learning.
of letting people know aboutthis year's summer school.
Sally Anne's Barbecue Workshop, a breadworkshop with baker Kevin Roberts, which
(03:10):
I have to admit I did not record becausemy hands were immediately so coated
in dough I couldn't touch anything,and a patisserie workshop with Martha
Brown, where we somehow made chocolateand hazelnut amaretti and honeycomb in
a suspiciously short amount of time.
It felt like wizardry.
Martha Brown (03:27):
So you might be able to turn it up.
So the magic number for us Today is 146degrees, so that's the temperature that
we're going to take our caramel to.
Before we take it off theheat and add our bicarb.
And our bicarb is there to give it volume,that's what turns it into honeycomb.
If we were to cook it to 146 degreesand then we were going to just pour
(03:48):
it out into a bowl, it would turninto a rock hard, clear caramel.
But what we want to do is aerateit, and so we're using bicarb.
So yeah, now I'm pretty happy with it.
I'm not going to get any more sugarcrystals around the edge of my pan.
I'm now going to work my way round.
Just like, pushing all of that
(04:10):
down.
I haven't taken the temperatureyet because it's not all
melted and coming together.
Yeah, these induction hobs seemto be hotter towards the back
of them, so you're going to setyour pan and put it off centre.
Nothing's ever just right.
Every oven has a personal temperature.
Lucy (04:25):
Martha actually started out attending the school herself,
doing the Advanced Diplomain Artisan Baking in 2011.
Martha Brown (04:32):
Yeah, so there we go.
So we're at 146.
We've hit the magic number.
So I'm going to remove from theheat, important, you don't want
to be putting your bike on.
Gonna
see the magic.
Gonna see the magic!
So, this is essential.
That's ready.
It's in a location that you don'thave to move it, so you're not
gonna burn yourself moving it.
(04:53):
My bicarb's a little bit lumpy.
I'm gonna pour it all in.
And then I'm gonna whisk violently.
And it's gonna climb.
And then while it's still climbing, I'mgonna pour, sorry people at the back.
(05:16):
Be so careful not to touch anyof this caramel because it will
stick to you while it's burning
you.
And then
so that's, we're now not gonna touch that.
Because we actually don't wantto knock any air out of it.
We want to leave it alone.
It is going to sink.
It completely sinks.
That's normal.
(05:36):
It's magic.
It is literal magic, isn't it?
How can they do that?
I think a lot of people have thatkind of completely foundationless
dream of like, wouldn't it be niceto have a cafe or a something, I
don't know, something food related.
And I think, I think I was like, Imight make biscuits for a living.
I don't really know what.
Lucy (05:57):
Little did you know.
Martha Brown (05:58):
That seems manageable.
That seems manageable.
I was like, yeah, maybe biscuits.
And I think I was just randomly sayingthis to a friend one evening and, uh,
he said, Oh there's no artisan bread inSheffield and I don't think I even knew
what the word artisan meant And so Iwas like Yeah, yeah, there's no artisan
bread in Sheffield and I went home and Igoogled artisan bread And the school came
(06:22):
up and I was like Oh that actually is out,that's such a cool course like, because
I, I, I definitely knew the differencebetween like better quality bread and
the kind of industrial supermarket bread.
Food has always been a massive partof my kind of upbringing and like
I've always been really into foodso I've got kind of Cypriot family
and kind of English Scottish familyon both sides very differently.
(06:45):
A lot of my memories from childhood arewrapped around food whether it's kind of
like Cypriot barbecues and being handeda fork with a bit of like barbecued lamb
on it to run around the garden, you know,by my like Or kind of um my scottish
grand baking, you know, it was a food.
It was always has been massivelytied up in my memories.
(07:06):
Like literally my, my Greek granddadused to come up to to Sheffield to
see us with a suitcase, not full ofclothes, but full of food, you know,
like bread from green lanes and like,just full of halloumi, you know that.
So yeah, I think when I saw the courseand that it wasn't that far away from
me and that maybe I could either likecommute or it wasn't a far move, I kind of
thought like, actually, this is somethingthat I am really interested in, even if
(07:30):
it's not bread specific, at that time.
I was just really interestedin food and hadn't gone to uni.
I'd kind of dropped out of school.
I only had GCSEs, so neverthought that, that I would be
kind of academically studying.
So yeah, I thought the school was myversion of university and a, and a chance
to kind of expand my interest in food.
I totally got obsessed withbaking and bread and sourdough
(07:53):
and pastry while studying.
So the diploma while I was there was ayear long and you could study bread and
patisserie, you could do butchery andcharcuterie, and you could do dairy.
So there's quite a real interestingmix of people and a really
interesting mix of subjects.
It's kind of the school of the fermentedarts and we're all, most of us were kind
of living together in a local village.
(08:14):
So we had all sorts of thingsgrowing in our kind of student
accommodation throughout the year.
So it was a really amazing.
year of discovery of kind offood and fermentation for me.
Lucy (08:24):
When you started the course, was it like an instant, like, oh
yeah, this is where I need to be?
Because it must have, I mean, thatmust have been quite intense to
just suddenly go into the, becauseit's very, you know, you learn
some very advanced skills, right?
Martha Brown (08:37):
Yeah, I think it's really accessible though at the start.
It was a lot of kind ofReal basic techniques.
And also just the, I think what's uniqueabout the course was that it was, there
was such a good amount of practicaltime to really get into the nitty gritty
of just like every single ingredient.
It was, yeah, you know, we spent probablythe best part of a week thinking about
like salt in bread and being able todo lots of tiny little experiments on
(09:00):
the, you know, dough on salt and justthe difference of the water made or
the difference that, you know, thatkind of, theory and time to play, which
I think is really difficult to getprofessionally when you're working in a
bakery and there is production and thereis like this kind of constant cycle.
I was in my early 20s and it was kindof my uni experience and I was like,
(09:21):
so I, I feel like I could have evengot way more out of it than I did.
That time is quite unique in that you'renot working, you're not at work and
you're not having In the grind, yeah, itis really precious and, and the estate
and the school, there's so many otherthings going on, I don't think I stuck
myself into everything that was going onin the estate, um, because also at the
(09:41):
time I was playing roller derby and I,I would like, so I was, I was really,
really, really deep into roller derby.
So I was kind of going back totrain like three times a week.
So I was kind of beingpulled back to Sheffield.
Three times a week?
Lucy (09:55):
Oh my God.
Martha Brown (09:56):
Even, yeah, yeah.
That's so funny.
Roller derby and bread werefighting for my attention.
Lucy (10:02):
And if I guess like, you know, there's a similarity in that you'd
come to both of those things, Iimagine, not really knowing anything
about them or like being, havingto be thrown quite in the deep end
in like a very physical experience.
Martha Brown (10:18):
Yeah, I think maybe that's what I'm into.
Yeah, I seem to get really Uh, intothings and then really go for it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The, the term like that just kindof has haunted me in my personal
life and, and at the bakery waslike, Martha likes the project.
(10:39):
And I think as soon as I've kind ofgot like headspace from one project
and then like, now we can do this.
Lucy (10:48):
This experience of kind of full body immersion learning.
was really the thing that I wantedto explore when I knew that I
was going to make an episodeabout my day at the school.
Watching all of the tutors working andteaching that day, it felt impossible
to me that I could learn to do whatthey can do any other way apart from
(11:10):
watching them do it, having them teachme, working out mistakes and challenges
on the fly, while I tried it too.
Sally Ann's tallow basting,Martha's careful pastry brushing
to stop caramel crystallizing.
I'm just not sure that I couldhave got them right out of
a book or watching YouTube.
(11:33):
I've never really done acooking or baking class before.
I'm quite resolutely self taught in mostof the things that I do with my time.
But recently I've begun to noticeand to consider the limitations of
learning in this way for me personally.
And to think more about the valueof physically handing down or
receiving knowledge and skillsin the presence of other people.
(11:57):
What do you think the value wasin learning those skills in the
environment that you did, likein s in such a hands on way?
Because I sort of feel like we'rein this age where, in theory, you
can kind of learn anything froma book or from a YouTube video.
It's actually like, in practice,I don't know if that's So I was
(12:18):
interested to know what your thoughtsare on that in, in terms of like
bread and pâtisserie in particular.
Martha Brown (12:24):
I think like, it is amazing the amount of information
there is online now and actuallyhow accessible a lot of it is.
But I think, And actually, I've learntso much from online, like, I took apart
a gearbox of a mixer because it wasbroken and I was like, well, I found a
YouTube video, I may as well follow it.
(12:45):
I stripped out this gearbox of amixer, I stripped out the gearbox
of a mixer, I found a broken cog, Iordered the part, and then I literally
just watched the YouTube video inreverse to put it back together.
Lucy (12:57):
Well, that's incredible.
Martha Brown (13:00):
And it worked, so like, totally, it's something that
is completely methodical and there iseffectively one way of doing something.
I think like, that is the, the greatthing about kind of like online learning.
I think food, and especially baking,there is just so many variables.
(13:20):
And if you're watching, you know, evenif you're reading a recipe in a book or
you're following a method on a video, Youare reading or seeing a single, a single
kind of way that you can do that process.
And actually there are so many variables,whether it's the temperature of your
kitchen or the equipment that you'reusing, or the, the heat of your hands
(13:41):
or how strong your fingers are, youknow, there's so many variables.
And also what you're seeing is the verybest outcome for that person or that
person who's produced that product or thatrecipe, and there's so much in between,
and just because it doesn't turn out.
That way doesn't mean that it's wrongor bad, or it's not going to taste
nice, but there's that, Oh, I haven'treached that, that perfection, that goal.
(14:05):
I think a lot of the time when you're,when you're looking at online things,
especially on social media, whereas Ithink learning in an environment that
is not only face to face teaching,but in a group situation where you're
learning with other people, you seeall that gray area and you kind of can
really, you dissect what's happenedand evaluate and problem solve.
(14:28):
I think it's that like problem solvingbrain, especially with bakery, that is
so essential, whether it's at home orwhether you're baking professionally.
And I think that's so hard tounderstand solo when you're kind of
at home learning and just being ableto see the different outputs and then
be like, Hmm, what happened here?
(14:49):
Do you know what I mean?
Like just, just seeingthe variation, I think.
alone is so useful.
Lucy (14:55):
I hadn't actually thought about it from that angle and that's so
true, like the idea that, yeah, you'rereducing the process to its outcome
or its output only, but actually like,in learning, the benefit is, yeah.
What you're figuring out along the way.
That reminds me of whenwe made the honeycomb.
(15:16):
And I instantly was just like, oh,ours doesn't look like Martha's.
So, something must have gone wrong.
And that's exactly how I would havereacted if I'd made that at home.
And I'd watched a video or like,seen a picture or whatever.
I'd have been like, oh, mine's bad.
But then you were like, oh no,it's just like It's going to look
fine on the inside, it's just thebubbles on the top aren't that big.
(15:37):
And like, just even having that, like,there are actually different ways
for this to look and like, this mightbe the reason why this has happened.
Yeah, it's hard to troubleshoot inthat way, I think, independently.
So it's really valuable to havethat experience in the room.
Martha Brown (15:51):
I think reassurance is a massive thing that you get
from a face to face teacher.
Like, I was teaching Fred last weekend,and You know, quite a few people were
being like, mine looks different to yourswhen we were kneading our dough and just
for me to be able to go, cool, you needmine now and I need, I'll need yours just
so we can both feel each other's doughand then instantly they've touched it and
(16:12):
they're like, Oh yeah, they feel the same.
And it's like, yeah, they do.
It's just, I like when you've been bakingfor a while, you just get nonstick hands.
It's just like magically happensone day and you're like, dough
doesn't stick to you in the sameway as it does when you're learning.
Oh my God.
Mine looks smoother and, you know, andkind of different from other people's,
(16:34):
but it was just because I, I was touchingthe dough in a slightly different
way to stop it looking as sticky.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's that kind of, You can gointo instant kind of like, spiral of
like, mine is going wrong at home.
When actually, it could, it couldbe exactly like the tutors in
terms of like, quality or texture.
Yeah, totally.
Lucy (16:56):
Do you, did you have any experiences, I mean, I guess it's quite
a while ago now and a lot has happened,but did you have any experiences
like that when you were learning?
Martha Brown (17:03):
Yeah, I definitely remember watching our tutor kind
of, I think it was, it was justlike pre shaping dough and, and it
just wasn't sticking to his hands.
And I was just like, how is this possible?
It's like, it's magic, like what the hell?
It was so, yeah, or looking into a mixeras a dough was developing and like our
tutor Wayne would be kind of describingwhat he was seeing and I was like, I
(17:27):
literally have no clue how he can like,it's like he's dough whispering and he
understands the dough from seeing it.
Whereas at the time I like, it justlooked like lots of ingredients
sloshing around a mixing bowl to me.
Whereas I now have that knowledge.
And that comes from, from thingsbeing pointed out to you as you
learn and from repetition and, um,kind of, yeah, knowing the process
(17:52):
through to the end and then beingable to start to see that development.
you know, earlier in the process.
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
I have like strong memories ofbeing told things and kind of not
being able to see them at the time.
And now it's something that like, I'mprobably doing to other people by just
saying, look, you can see it beingdoing this and they're nodding along.
And I'm thinking, are you good?
(18:13):
Do you know?
It's all right.
But I'm going to tell you anyway, because
Lucy (18:15):
one day you'll look back on this moment and be like,
Martha Brown (18:18):
yeah, yeah, totally.
I think I'm a reallypractical and visual learner,
and I actually
think it really helps me then learnin a more academic way if I've
had an experience of the process.
I really struggle to learn completely,theoretically, about anything, but
once I have a bit of an experienceof something I can then read and
(18:41):
devour information written that Iwould not have been able to do before.
Lucy (18:51):
I think somehow I had thought of the school in quite a romanticised way because
I had decided that I wanted to tell thisstory about learning how to make food in
a hands on way and that being embodied.
Sensual, almost.
(19:11):
And I think this made sense whenMartha and I had a conversation
because of her personal experiencesand approach to learning alongside
her professional experience.
And this was linked in my mind to the ideaof skills we used to have relating to food
making and production that stopped beingpassed down for one reason or another.
(19:35):
Quite often when I'm makingsomething for Lecker, I'm
slightly unclear about what it is.
What my point even is.
Everything I make starts with beingcurious about something, but generally I
begin working on it without knowing fullywhat I actually want to say about it.
Quite like starting here, althoughit can feel very uncertain.
(19:56):
It's fun, it's satisfying whenit comes together, sometimes
against the odds or so it feels.
And generally I'm kind of lucky.
Or cocky, I suppose.
Enough to figure it out on the fly.
And then it all comes out in the wash.
But sometimes this approach resultsin asking interviewees questions
that are extremely confusing to them.
(20:18):
When I interviewed Alison SwanParenti, the founder of the School
of Artisan Food, we found ourselvesslightly at cross purposes.
Because what I was asking her aboutwhat the school did and the basis
on which it was founded, It justdidn't make sense to her at all.
Alison Swan Parente (20:36):
Kat, uh, I'm not quite sure what you're asking me there.
Are you asking me I guess just,
Lucy (20:43):
was it, did, was it, how can I rephrase it more, um, it was more
just coming off the back of notnecessarily knowing how the passing of
information previously happened whenit came to learning how to make things.
And was that a gap thatyou wanted to fill?
Alison Swan Parente (21:04):
Yes, it was.
But when I started the Schoolof Artisan Food, It really
wasn't about cooking skills.
Um, it was about making skills really.
And, and that sounds a bit kind ofprissy to put it that way, but I was
quite interested in mass production.
It was to do with how to make breadfor the sake of making a staple.
(21:28):
And so really, what I'vealways been interested in is
establishing small businesses.
with what we produce, whatwe teach in the school.
So it really is roots into work.
So it's so that you can work in somebodyelse's small business or you can
start a small business of your own.
So it's much more thatthan domestic cooking.
(21:49):
The first thing we thought of wasteaching people how to make food that's
going to produce a living for them.
That's a kind of dignified livingand a living that is both creative
and pretty helpful to other peopleand good fun and producing, you know,
it's good for the culture reallyto have nice food that tastes nice.
(22:09):
It's um, what's wrong with that?
I didn't have very much to dowith schools or artisan food
before I founded the school.
I was a child psychotherapist and I workedin the national health service, but.
It is actually a very logicalprogression from being a child
psychotherapist to opening a food school.
(22:32):
Because one of the things that Ifound working with challenging and
difficult and usually very niceadolescents was that they were very
much helped by having something to do.
And that, something thatthey could really succeed in.
And so one of the reasons that I startedthe School of Artisan Food was, to do
(22:53):
with providing roots into work for peoplewho find it hard to get that together.
When we were founded, we reallythought we were going to be teaching
fermentation more than anything else.
And if you think about it,what we're doing is thinking
about fermentation a lot.
We're thinking about the way that breadis made through a fermentation process.
(23:14):
Cheese, clearly, there's evena little bit of fermentation in
salamis and things like that.
So, Really, in a way, one of thebenefits is, is really exposing people
to the miracles of nature in a way.
Just how, if you put several ingredientstogether, they produce these wonderful,
(23:35):
very simple ways to feed you andhelp you, help make you healthy.
But they are very simple.
I think that one of the benefitsthat we can take from them.
pass on is that good food isactually incredibly simple.
One of the things wasjust a scarcity of skills.
You know, I'd started a bakery.
We wanted to make long fermentationbreads and there was very, very few
(23:59):
people in the country at that point.
I mean, it's hard to believe now.
who knew how to do it.
There were two bakeries in Londonthat were producing artisan bread.
There was Andrew Whitley up in Malmobyin Cumberland producing artisan bread
and there were very very few other peopledoing it and they didn't know how to
do it or where they should be doing it.
So a school was really a place to um,teach, methods that were really dying
(24:26):
out and we managed to do that actually.
As soon as we built the school itbecame clear that it was a place for
people who had really wanted to passon their skills but didn't have the
infrastructure in order to do thatand so we built Uh, we had a capital
project, building the building, but wealso, you know, put in place a booking
(24:49):
system and all of those things, whichdid make it much easier for people.
So partly I started the school to providea place where people could teach, rather
than a place where people could learn.
So it was obviously started withboth of those, but the teaching has
been a very, kind of, um, primary.
Lucy (25:08):
Mmm, that's really interesting.
And I suppose, obviously, the, theside advantage is that you would have
access to great bread, which, if that'ssomething that you were keen to eat, that
feels like a great Was this somethingthat you had learned to make yourself
in the process of setting up the school?
Alison Swan Parente (25:25):
I had, I'd learned to make good bread
a long time ago in America.
I was living in a communal household.
Lots of people in thehousehold baked bread.
The men baked the bread, andso it was quite inspiring.
And it was pretty good bread.
It wasn't actually reallygood bread that we made.
(25:47):
It was, um, yeasted.
It wasn't long fermentation.
But it was much, much better than anythingthat you could buy in a supermarket.
I'm really keen on that stillbeing something that's, you know,
in the general culture, you know.
But the school itself, the thingthat differentiates itself from or
differentiates the school from otherplaces is really that we're interested
(26:12):
in pre industrial techniques with food.
That's what artisan skills are really.
They're, uh, skills that, um, have alot to do with knowing where things come
from, knowing the feel of things, knowinghow to make them, knowing what their
history is, and all of those things.
Lucy (26:32):
It's funny listening back to this, having finally worked
out what the episode is about.
And considering that Alison had justcarefully explained to me that her
work with the school had been entirelybusiness focused, I still just couldn't
help myself trying to burrow in herpersonal story, searching for hints of
(26:52):
skills being passed down hand to hand.
I think it's really becauseI like so many of us.
I have such an emotional connectionto making food, and also it's not
how I make my living day to day,which probably allows me to rose
tint it slightly, or quite a lot.
And I'm so grateful to Alison for beingso generous in really listening to me,
(27:15):
really deeply considering the angle thatI was trying to come from, but then very
clearly clarifying and explaining herposition and the school's so clearly.
I learnt a lot from it.
And She actually did reflecta lot more on her personal
experiences of learning to cook too.
Alison Swan Parente (27:33):
We were talking about the difference between learning
about food from other people and in thecompany of other people and learning
about food remotely and through cookbooksand what those differences are and I
was thinking about it and I think thatI learned some of my actual cooking
skills from cookbooks much more than anyother way because You know, everybody
(27:56):
has their own cookbook, but people lovea particular cookbook that's helped
them along and mine was Julia Child.
So I just loved following thoserecipes because she goes, and then
you do this, and then you get hiswooden spoon, and then you do this,
and in the end, it's pretty good food.
So she's a fantasticallygood step by step tutor.
(28:18):
And I did actually really enjoyed doingthat on my own and making the mistakes.
So having classes is avery, very different thing.
There's much more to a class in a way.
There's much more, uh, interms of human contact.
There's much more in the way of beingable to share with people how things work.
(28:39):
feel and how things taste but I thinkI actually think both of them are very
good ways to learn to make food andum, uh, that a cookbook in a way on
your own is one thing and a cookingclass is an entirely different thing
and both of them are pretty good.
I'm pretty old, I'm a post warbaby and the women of my mother's
(29:02):
generation had learned to cook inquite a creative way because they
didn't have much to cook with.
They remembered rationing, they rememberedactually cooking a lot of stuff from
allotments and gardens, and so the kind ofcooking that I learned was pretty frugal.
And that was a great influence on me,but also there was another influence,
(29:23):
which was the kind of wonderful 50scooking that went on in my mother's
kitchen if she gave a dinner party.
Every day she would cook wonderful,kind of, you know, good, wholesome
food, but a dinner party wasan entirely different matter.
Lucy (29:39):
What would she make?
Alison Swan Parente (29:40):
Baked grapefruit with a glacé cherry on the top, first course.
Second course, eitherkebabs made with a tent peg.
Do you remember those kind ofscrew, metal screw tent pegs?
Lamb, and then a pepperwhich was really unusual.
I mean you had to go toWorthing to get a pepper.
(30:01):
Then, uh, a bit of tomato and a mushroom.
And straight into the oven.
So that was a verysophisticated second course.
Or there was also tuna bake, whichyou make by putting one can of
tuna, one can of Campbell's mushroomsoup, one packet of crisps, and a
(30:23):
lot of mousetrap cheese on the top.
Again, in the oven.
Success!
And I can't rememberwhat her desserts were.
By that time, you know, youwere completely floored.
Lucy (30:36):
The ten peg kebab is inspired.
I love that.
Alison Swan Parente (30:40):
It's very good.
And then she also had some verygood cookbooks, really, to speak
to what you're interested in today.
So she did actually I don't think mymother ever went to a cooking class.
She was quite competitive with her otherfriends, so they would talk about cooking.
But she did have thecookbooks that everybody had.
(31:01):
There was Constance Spry's cooking.
She also had the PenguinElizabeth David cookbooks.
And she taught herself from those, andshe taught herself very well from those.
Lucy (31:14):
It's really interesting that she, you talk about her learning from you.
from books, I guess, ratherthan from her parents.
I mean, obviously I don't want tomake any assumptions about what her
relationship with her parents werelike, but that in context of what you're
saying about pre industrial food isquite interesting that that almost has
the, the passing down of informationfrom generation to generation hasn't
(31:36):
always been that fluid or, um, seamless.
Alison Swan Parente (31:41):
I don't know.
where she learned to cook or whather relationship was with her mother.
She never talked about hermother or what her relationship
was with her mother's cooking.
She talked about her motherbut she never talked about
the food that her mother made.
Lucy (32:00):
To come back to this idea of creating roots into work, this was
something Martha, somewhat unexpectedlyto her, put to practice very, very
quickly into her time at the school.
Martha Brown (32:15):
A few months after the course, or even while the course was
going on, I actually kind of founda shop in Sheffield and you had to
write a business plan as part of thecourse and, uh, Kind of was like,
Oh, we'll, we'll look at rents.
We'll look at shops and see what's around.
And it kind of turned from a completemade up scenario to actually a reality.
(32:36):
So yeah, I went from not thinking,yeah, it's a bit kind of.
ridiculous, I think, and not theideal way to start a business.
I think like, go and work in bakeries,get lots of professional experience,
make mistakes in other people'sbusinesses, do you know what I mean?
Like, rather than your own.
But yeah, so I left the coursein July 2012 and opened in
(32:59):
September, uh, in November 2012.
So I just kind of got the keysliterally like a month after leaving.
And yeah, opened up you.
tiny bakery.
It was kind of in a retail shop.
So it was all one space.
So I wasn't kind of having to bakesomewhere else and then transport it.
It was just a single room.
Everyone could see the process.
(33:20):
Everyone could see what was goingon, but that kind of felt manageable.
You know, it wasn't big, scary,rent, big, scary production unit.
So yeah, Yeah, set up, was in that shopfor two years, moved to a bigger premises,
opened a cafe, opened kind of a restauranty cafe upstairs, expanded into the shop
next door, did bread classes and supperclubs and pizza nights and markets
(33:44):
and it just kind of grew organically.
over time.
And actually a lot of what I enjoyedabout it was the business development
as well as the kind of, I guess there'sthat creativity in that, and then
there's also the creativity in theproduction and the product development.
And they were the two thingsI kind of loved the most.
It was never that I was particularlyinterested in being a business owner.
(34:07):
That was just, um, a thing that, thathappened and quite significantly as well.
Yeah.
So I did that for, for 10 years, kind ofhad 30 staff, uh, kind of across three
floors of a building and out in the yardand everyone was kind of packed into
whatever little space we could have.
And yeah, I've run through COVID reallywell, but I think like that really kind
(34:32):
of, Weighed on me and took it out of me.
And while I really wanted, I had so manyexciting grand plans for the business,
I think I kind of got to the pointwhere I was like, I think I probably
need to start thinking about lifeoutside of the bakery and what else.
I could do or have headspace for.
So yeah, I sold it after 10 years,had a bit of time off and then found
(34:55):
myself back at the school last summer.
So kind of summer 2023 saying,what kind of jobs have you got?
Have you got anything?
Like, I'm just quite interestedin, like, I could just come and
help out or is there teaching?
And then they were like, Oh, actuallywe need a patisserie and vinnoiserie
teacher on our foundation degree.
And so I was like,amazing, that sounds great.
(35:17):
So I've been back at the schoolsince last summer teaching, but also
working as a technician, kind ofsupporting other tutors on courses,
um, doing that kind of organization.
And I've really enjoyed both.
I really enjoy that kind of organizationside and then kind of, I guess I
know what what teachers need becauseI'm also doing the teaching, um,
which is a really nice balance.
(35:37):
And so when
Lucy (35:38):
you started teaching.
Yeah.
What was that like to go fromkind of student to teacher?
Martha Brown (35:44):
I think it definitely again took me a little while to really
understand the kind of points in the daywhere like, someone was going to go and
do something before I'd said, and that youneed to kind of catch those or give those
little tidbits of advice, like, beforesomething happens, because it's not like
(36:04):
if you're stood in front of a class andyou're saying things to people and you're
hoping that they understand all your,your, your kind of thinking they are.
When you're, when you're teachinga practical class, everyone
has to go away with a product.
And actually if someone is fallingbehind, you can't just abandon them.
I mean, it's like, we've got to moveas, as fast as the slowest person
in the room, which is, which is.
(36:26):
Totally fine.
And actually there's a problem withbeing effectively too quick and
not listening at the same time.
So it was a hundred, it was a massivelearning experience for me, but
also, I guess I knew what had beenuseful for me when I was learning.
So I could kind of try and, Yeah, like Ieven think that from when I was learning,
(36:48):
I remember kind of scribbles on bitsof paper that tutors did to describe
kind of fermentation or a wheat berry.
And like, every single class Iwould draw the same image that I
think is probably ingrained in mybrain from when I was learning.
Lucy (37:01):
Yeah.
Martha Brown (37:01):
Because, but that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean to say that.
everyone in the room learns thesame way as I do, so I think you've
really got to have a range of ways ofexplaining things or demoing things.
And that's also the nice thing aboutbeing in person, you know, if something's
not working for you, the teacher shouldreally be able to be like, okay, try
this instead and offer that range of,of different methods and techniques,
(37:27):
because there is so many in Brad andeveryone probably teaches in a different
way and everything will kind of.
Yeah, things will click for people,I think, in a different way.
Lucy (37:37):
What is it, do you think, that makes people really good at that?
I
Alison Swan Parente (37:43):
don't know.
I think some people are good at teachingand some people aren't good at teaching.
I mean, I think that's true if yougo to any school in the country,
you'll see there are good teachersand not such good teachers.
But I think in order to be evenbegin to be a good teacher, you
have to really be interested inyour subject and like your subject.
And you have to be able to transmit thatenthusiasm and, and all of those feelings
(38:08):
about what you're doing to other people.
One of the things we've been incrediblylucky about with this school is that,
The people who started teaching here,really from the beginning, started
teaching because they really lovedtheir subject and they really didn't
want to leave the world withouthaving taught it to other people,
(38:29):
taught their skills to other people.
And so we've pretty much always hadvery good, very enthusiastic teachers.
Lucy (38:38):
I think I agree with this idea that some people are good at
teaching and some people aren't.
And I also think that Somepeople love to learn, and some
people aren't that bothered.
For the people that love to learn, forthem, us maybe, would I tentatively say
this about myself, it's impossible toever really stop wanting to learn new
(39:02):
things, to throw yourself into them.
Martha's back in the classroom herself.
You've now Gone back to learningfull time, well, full time again.
What prompted the decision tostudy interior architecture?
Martha Brown (39:17):
I think, so I did, I guess I ended up doing
a lot of it in my own business.
I kind of, I guess, well, a lot of people.
Who, I don't know how, a lot of peopleseemingly have the money to employ kind
of interior design stuff, but like Ididn't, but also I really wanted to do it.
I really enjoyed designing the spaces,even the kind of really functional
(39:38):
spaces, the kitchens and working outthe workflows and how we could be
efficient because we weren't in a bigkind of rectangular warehousy type shape.
We were in kind of small, old terraceshops where it was really important to be.
I just think I really enjoyed gettinggeeky with it and working tessellation of,
you know, how things would fit together.
(39:59):
And actually as part of the, the kindof application for uni, I had to write
a personal statement and I am reallyterrible at writing anything like that
or about myself, but like the kind of,it was quite weirdly cathartic to think
back and think actually food and designor spaces have always been really part
(40:21):
of my existence, even as like, a child,like I designed my room when I was 11 and
picked all the colors and the furniture.
And then when I was 14, I wanted tomove into a bigger room downstairs.
So I was like saved upand bought the furniture.
Like I poured over the Ikeacatalog when I was like in my early
teens and would kind of draw overfurniture and then like redesign it.
(40:42):
And then, and I just hadn't reallythought that that was, It's not a strange
thing to do, but like an interest,it was just something that I did.
And then when I look back, I was like,Oh, actually, maybe I've actually
been into this for quite a while.
And yeah, I, I kind of, I, I didn'tfinish my A levels, um, cause I got,
I started feeling well after GCSEs.
It's about 16 and then ittook a year and a half, I was
(41:04):
diagnosed with chronic fatigue.
And so actually when everyoneelse was going out into the world
and going to uni, my kind of lifeand world shrunk quite a lot.
And actually then home became reallyimportant and it was where I could create
things and where I could, it was thething that I had control of, I guess.
So actually cooking and myhouse or my interior space.
(41:27):
yeah, was the thing that I had accessto, which now makes a lot of sense
that maybe that's why I'm interested.
I'm also very affected by spaces,whether it's like architecture or the
design of things or the feel of things.
I think that's always, um, part ofmy Yeah, uh, part of the world that I
(41:49):
kind of feel and see, I see the likelittle things, um, and so it's quite
nice to be delving into that now.
But definitely feels related.
Lucy (41:58):
You have been doing this work with the school for quite a while now,
and on sort of reflecting back, whatdo you think was it about everything
you'd learned as a psychotherapistthat made it such a logical step?
Alison Swan Parente (42:15):
I think that I'm very interested in what makes people
tick, but I'm particularly interestedin the social conditions, not just the
emotional conditions, but the socialconditions that make people tick.
Because I, I started off as apsychotherapist working with children,
(42:38):
but then I did a lot of work withthe Women's Therapy Centre in London.
And so, that was in the, itwas founded in the late 70s.
And we were a particularlyfeminist enterprise.
We were thinking about women's psychology.
Not just because of, um, parentalinfluences and psychodynamic
(42:58):
influences, but also the socialinfluences that meant that women
were showing so many more psychiatricsymptoms under certain conditions.
And so we were thinking that if you'rethinking about women's psychology,
you have to think about it in a socialcontext and in a political context.
(43:19):
And I think that I've alwaysbeen interested in looking at
food in the same kind of way,that it isn't just for eating.
You have to look at how it's produced,why it's produced, who it's produced
by, and think about it both sociallyand politically in order to understand
how to get rid of barriers to healthand to think about how we can think
(43:45):
about, for example, the food systemAnd how it affects things like climate.
All of these things are not just todo with eating or farming or producing
food, they're to do with big systems.
And I don't think you can teach theslightest thing around food without
knowing a lot about its context.
(44:06):
So I think that, that's a reallytorturous way to go from psychotherapy
to food, but it is to do with thinkingabout very visceral things, which is how
we feel and how we, but also to thinkabout how many different influences
there are over those primary processes.
Lucy (44:34):
Lekker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy Dearlove.
Thanks to Martha Brown and Alison SwanParente for being part of this episode.
And also to Sally Ann Hunt, KevinRoberts, and everyone else at the
School of Artisan Food, especiallyEmily Leary, who organised us all being
there on the day that we were invited.
It was such a great day, I loved it.
You can find out more about theSchool of Artisan Food and the courses
(44:57):
they run on their website, as wellas the diplomas and longer courses.
They do lots of short half day courses inthings like ice cream and pork pie making.
Not together, yet.
And Just a really, I think it wouldjust be a great way to spend a bit of
time in the beautiful countryside wherethe school is on the Welbeck estate.
(45:18):
There are also still places on thisyear's four week summer school, though
accommodation is now full you can stilldo it as a non residential student.
Takes place in July and Augustand is led by the three tutors.
that we met Martha Brown, Sally AnnHunt and Kevin Roberts, so we'll
cover lots of fascinating stuffrelating to meat, wheat and dairy.
(45:39):
Again, you can find out moreabout that on the School of Art
Assigned Food website, and if you'reinterested, get a move on because I
think there's only a few places left.
The music in this episodeis by Blue Dot Sessions.
Before I go, I One reminder thatyou can sign up as a paid subscriber
to support Lekha on Apple Podcasts,Patreon and now on Substack too.
(46:03):
Links are in the show notes.
Hello to any paid subscriberswho are listening here.
I'm so grateful for your support.
Thank you.
And thanks to all of you for listening.
I'll be back very soon.
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