November 30, 2023 • 51 mins
Welcome back to the Lecker Book Club. Every month I’ll pick a newly released food related book and talk to the author about the process of writing it. I’ll also be writing about it on Substack and Patreon. Join me there as well!
This month: Ramen Forever by Tim Anderson.
Ramen has ended up as a cornerstone of Tim Anderson’s life. As he writes in the book, it was originally his love of ramen - as well as Japanese food more broadly - that took him to live in Japan, which steered the course of his future in many ways, including meeting his wife. Avid food TV watchers in the UK may also remember that ramen was at the heart of his Masterchef story; when he won the series in 20211, ramen was his winning main course in the final. He previously ran a ramen restaurant in Brixton, Nanban, which opened in 2015 and closed in 2021. But although he’s got five cookbooks already to his name, he’s never written a book entirely about ramen….until now.
Ramen Forever is out now, published by Hardie Grant. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
This month: Ramen Forever by Tim Anderson.
Ramen has ended up as a cornerstone of Tim Anderson’s life. As he writes in the book, it was originally his love of ramen - as well as Japanese food more broadly - that took him to live in Japan, which steered the course of his future in many ways, including meeting his wife. Avid food TV watchers in the UK may also remember that ramen was at the heart of his Masterchef story; when he won the series in 20211, ramen was his winning main course in the final. He previously ran a ramen restaurant in Brixton, Nanban, which opened in 2015 and closed in 2021. But although he’s got five cookbooks already to his name, he’s never written a book entirely about ramen….until now.
Ramen Forever is out now, published by Hardie Grant. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lucy (00:05):
This is Lecker.
I'm Lucy Dearlove.
This month on the Lecker Club,Ramen Forever by Tim Anderson.
Ramen has ended up as a kind ofcornerstone of Tim Anderson's life.
As he writes in the book Ramen Forever,it was originally his love of ramen that
took him to live in Japan, which steeredthe course of his future in many ways.
(00:30):
Including that he met his wife there.
Avid food TV watchers in the UKmay also remember that ramen was at
the heart of his MasterChef storywhen Tim won the series in 2011.
Ramen was his winningmain course in the final.
He also previously ran a ramen restaurantin Brixton which was called Nanban,
opening in 2015 and it closed in 2021.
(00:53):
But, although he's now got five cookbooksalready to his name, he's never written
a book entirely about ramen before.
Until now.
Tim (01:01):
There's a Mickey Mantle quote I read recently where I think he said
something like, it's amazing to realizehow little you know about the game
you've been playing your whole life.
Something like that.
And I really felt thatwriting the ramen book.
Lucy (01:18):
I found this such an interesting conversation, not just about ramen, but
also about the nature of cookbook writingand power dynamics within publishing.
Tim spoke about his work and hisapproach to it with an honesty that.
I think is really generous, and Ifeel like I really got an insight in
what it takes to write recipes fora living in the way that he does.
Including that feeling that you might nothave got something completely right when
(01:42):
it goes off to print, or that someoneelse might have been better placed to
write something that you agreed to.
I'm really grateful to Tim for this,because it made what I knew would be
an interesting conversation anywayeven more enjoyable, and I hope
that you get a lot out of it too.
And if nothing else, You'll be temptedto make that leftover Nando's ramen.
I began by asking Tim about somethingthat he opens ramen forever with.
(02:07):
What ramen is, but also what it isn't.
Tim (02:16):
Yeah, it's kind of a big question.
I mean, on the one hand,the answer is very simple.
Because ramen is like, when you boilit down, no pun intended, it becomes
a very simple thing, and that is...
alkaline wheat noodles in broth.
I used to also sort of add a, a caveatto that, which is that it had to be a
(02:39):
meat broth, just cause that's what it'ssort of always traditionally has been.
And that's what sets it apart,especially from other kinds of
traditional Japanese noodle soups.
One of the things anyway, but youknow, nowadays it's all broths and, and
vegetarian or vegan versions as well.
So I don't think that's part ofit, but that is sort of one of the.
(03:02):
Historically defining features of it,but it's the alkaline wheat noodles,
the wheat noodles that have Kansuipotassium carbonate and sodium carbonate
in them that really makes ramen ramenand distinct from other kinds of noodles.
And this is yeah.
Ramen, the word as it's used in,uh, Britain and I think English
speaking countries, generallypeople take it to mean sort of any.
(03:24):
Sort of noodle soup.
I think any kind of Asian noodle soup,which isn't true, obviously Ramen is
a particular kind of noodle soup froma particular place and other kinds
of noodle soups are other kind ofparticular noodle soups So you see kind
of absurd things in shops and on thehigh street chains like Ramen Udon or
(03:46):
Laksa Ramen and it's like Ramen Udonis like saying spaghetti gnocchi or,
you know, it just makes absolutely nosense if you know what these words mean.
If I have one thing that I wantpeople to sort of take away from
the book, it is actually just that.
It's that ramen is ramen andramen has to have alkaline salts
(04:07):
in it, kansui, or it isn't ramen.
And for me with ramen, There issomething special and unique about
the texture that you get in thenoodles that does come from Kansui.
So, it's not just a matterof me being pedantic.
It is like sort of, you know, ramenfor me and a lot of people is a special
(04:27):
thing and that's what makes it special.
That's one of the thingsthat makes it special.
Now, having said that, there areother types of noodles in Chinese
traditions that do use Kansuiand are basically the same dish.
But I think you also have to respectthose dishes and not call them ramen,
even though they sort of technically fitthe definition like wonton noodle soup.
(04:50):
Cause I don't know enough aboutChinese food culture to come up with
a lot of examples, but wonton noodlesoup is one that I know uses alkaline
wheat noodles in a meat broth.
You could say, oh, it's ramen, but reallyI think when you do that, you're also sort
of showing your hand to somebody who'snot that familiar with that particular
dish, and you would never sort of conflatethe two if you did know the difference.
(05:12):
But, you know, also, this definitionis a little bit sort of unsatisfying
because Ramen has other elementsbeyond the noodles and the broth,
and that's the toppings, the oils,um, and the tare, the seasoning.
And all these things are importantin sort of determining what is
ramen and, and, um, complicating it.
And all these things have to be takeninto consideration when you discuss
(05:33):
sort of regional variations and, Sortof new, modern variations, which are
also like, have to be understood as,as part of the definition of ramen.
It's not just wheat noodles in brothor alkaline wheat noodles in broth.
It is all of the variations that youget from that starting point as well.
So it's simple, but it'salso complicated, basically.
Lucy (05:55):
Yeah.
It's a big question to start with.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Well, thank you for that.
That's very interesting.
And from what I understand, andfrom what you write in the book.
Ramen is a big part of your life, it'sa big part of your kind of personal,
I guess, like, story around food.
How is it important to you?
Can you remember thefirst time you ate it?
Tim (06:12):
I can't really remember the first time I ate it because I think for, like,
a lot of people, the first time I ate itwas, would have been in its instant form.
Growing up, we always hadpackets of Maruchan or Sapporo
Ichiban in the cupboard.
They were just sort of, like, part ofthe fabric of Midwestern American food,
like, Everybody I knew ate instant ramen.
(06:34):
They cost maybe 10 cents a pack backthen, like they were incredibly cheap.
They're one of the first thingsyou learn to cook when you
can't cook like as a teenager.
So that would have been my firstbasic introduction to ramen.
And also I want to say like, theremay be people thinking, oh, that's
not really ramen, but I think it is.
I think you can't dismiss instant ramen.
(06:54):
It's like a huge part ofthe ramen culture as well.
And a huge part of what sort ofmade it popular around the world.
Like Introducing people to the dish inthat format and getting them on board
with the whole concept of, like, longnoodles in broth, like, that's important.
So that would have been the firsttime when I grew up eating those.
Uh, and then when I went to college,uh, I went to college in Los Angeles
(07:18):
and that was partly because I wasalready interested in Japanese
food and I knew that there wasa lot more to learn about there.
Because of the Japanese diasporapopulation, and it's just much
more established and diverse.
So, I started eating ramen in shopslike in Little Tokyo in LA, um, and on
Sawtelle Boulevard, um, stuff like that.
And it didn't really, like, hit me.
(07:40):
Like, I had a lot of sort of whatI would now, I guess, I might sort
of realize were just sort of...
This sounds mean, but they werejust sort of like nothing special
kinds of bowls, so they didn'treally have much of an impact on me.
But then...
There was a night where I was out inLittle Tokyo with a group of friends
and there were sort of too many ofus We hadn't booked anywhere to eat.
(08:00):
We couldn't get anywhere and there wasthis restaurant that we finally stumbled
across called Daikoku Yacht Whichis still there and very popular now.
We would never have been able toget in there now But they took us
all in there were like seven of us.
It was ridiculous.
We sat at the counter and And it wasmy first bowl of tonkotsu ramen, and
I'd never had anything like it before.
(08:21):
It was, you know, most of the ramenI'd had had like a kind of a thinner
broth, a shio or a shoyu kindof old school Tokyo style broth.
And this one was rich and porky and fatty.
And it was just mesmerizing because itwas about the broth, but it was also about
the noodles I think it was probably thefirst time I recognized that the noodles
themselves Were something special andthen it had all this contrast as you
(08:45):
eat it because you get the pork bellythe chashu that sort of flakes apart
falls apart and and slurp that up andthen you get a bit of pickled ginger
some spring onions a bit of crunchybean sprout and it's just this sort
of like really involving bowl of food.
Um, and that was sort of my ramen moment.
That was, that was reallywhat kicked it off.
And it really did kick it off.
(09:05):
Like, I, I went to Daikokuya probablyon average every other week for, it
would have been two or three years.
Until the time I left L.
A.
We were regulars there.
Me and my friends, or my girlfriend.
And, um, they onlyreally served one thing.
So that's how, that's how good it was.
It just kept me coming back justfor that one particular thing.
(09:28):
But, you know, during thistime I also went to, I applied
for a research grant in 2005.
Or, uh, 2004, something likethat to go and study noodles.
Cause I was already studyingJapanese history and culture.
I majored in Japanese studies.
And, um, I, I put this pitch together,sort of studying the history of the
different kinds of noodle culturesin Japan, soba, udon, ramen, and the
(09:52):
differences between them and, and whythey were established where they were.
But anyway, I wound up focusingmost of my research on the
Shin Yokohama Ramen Museum.
And that trip was also like justthis massive education in terms of.
how significant, how big the dish is,both in terms of sort of its, its cultural
impact and how, how much of a sort of, uh,nostalgic food it is for people in Japan,
(10:17):
but also how really, really regional anddiverse it is and how you could live a
whole lifetime eating ramen every day andnot ever reach the end of it, basically.
Lucy (10:29):
What I'm really curious about is that it's obviously
such an important dish to you.
Well, you know, like I guess dishis maybe diminishing it slightly.
Um, But this is your,this is your sixth book.
Yeah, right?
Why did it take you so longto write a book about ramen?
Tim (10:46):
The publishers are running out of ideas.
Not really.
Lucy (10:52):
Like finally you can do it Tim, you can do the ramen book.
Tim (10:56):
The funny thing is, um, that's a great question.
So my very first book, Nanban, is aboutthe food of Kyushu and a little bit of
Okinawa with some of my own sort of takeson that type of food and what I had been
serving at pop ups in London at the time.
(11:17):
And there's a big chapter onramen, but it's really quite basic.
Like, uh, at the time I thought,oh, I'm publishing these recipes
that are, you know, they're goingto be great because it's going
to showcase a little bit about...
The diversity of at least within Kyushuand the different styles there, Champon
and Kumamoto Ramen and things like these,um, which is still some of my favorites.
(11:38):
But really like, the, the, therecipes are too basic in that book.
They, they weren't that well researched.
There's not a lot of information onthe, almost no variation actually,
information on the variation interms of tare and noodles in them.
Um, it's a bit too simplistic.
It's a bit too, uh, toomuch of an overview I guess.
So.
It's not like I was sort of itchingto do another ramen book for a long
(12:02):
time, but this, this was a goodopportunity to really dive deeper.
There's less of the regional variations,but more in terms of a sort of
nuts and bolts understanding of howthose variations are made basically,
uh, in each element within them.
But getting into the sort of, you know,why now side of it to answer that question
(12:23):
is doing these books is, has always been.
Collaboration I guess you could saybetween me and the publisher and you
know They have mostly to be honestbeen ideas that have come from my
publisher and they said we want todo this Can you do it and I've said?
Okay, or no But with ramen it felt likesomething I could do But it was daunting
(12:45):
still it was Because it is such a hugetopic and it's one of these things where
it's like there's a Mickey Mantle quoteI read recently where I think he said
something like It's amazing to realizehow little you know about the game
you've been playing your whole life.
Something like that.
And, and I really felt thatwriting the ramen book.
(13:07):
On the one hand, as I was testingrecipes, I was like, oh good,
these recipes are working.
And it's like, well,yeah, of course they are.
I've been making ramen for a long time.
But on the other hand, I waslike, man, but I can't, you know,
there's still so much I don't know.
And there's so much thatI, I can't fit in the book.
And it's like, I don't know, I'vedone my best to, um, say what I think
(13:29):
I guess is important about ramen,but try to encourage people to do
their own extended research, I guess.
Which people do anyway, theydon't need me to tell them that.
Lucy (13:40):
Yeah, very true.
I feel like it's something thatpeople have very strong opinions
about, so that must have beenquite a daunting task in some ways.
Tim (13:47):
It is, it is scary.
There is a very big sortof ramen nerd community.
Um out there on the on the internet I usethe word nerd mostly affectionately With
some caveats, yeah, because I am one ofthem anyway but yeah so far the response
from that community from you know peopleI I Follow and chat to on Instagram and
(14:10):
stuff has been really positive But I'm notgonna go hunting around reddit or whatever
for comments about Where my book hasfallen short or got it wrong or whatever
like, you know things like that becauseyeah I don't know what it is about ramen,
but it seems to really Get a lot of peoplevery passionate and that's the thing.
I didn't I didn't want to let themdown I guess more than anything
Lucy (14:32):
Yeah, that's, that's funny.
Actually, I was going to ask youwhat you think it is about ramen in
particular that does inspire this kindof cult like devotion, but I guess
it's one of life's great mysteries.
Tim (14:43):
I think about this all the time, to be honest.
And so I think for one thing, there isan undeniable sort of impact of this
dish, even at its sort of most soothingand subtle, it's still like a large
portion of salty food with a fillingamount of noodles in it and broth.
And it's got, you know, bags of umamiand all this contrast, like, like you'd
(15:06):
get from so many different kinds of foodsthat also inspire a similar kind of nerdy
devotion, like burgers or pizza, youknow, these are similar foods that you
can really fiddle with and tinker with.
But I also think that there issomething, you know, I don't
want to get too, I don't know.
(15:27):
Ethnographic or something, but there isa certain kind of person who is attracted
to ramen into making it That and I Iput myself in this category that I think
is a kind of a control freak kind ofpersonality um People who really like to
sort of like dial in specificities of arecipe and a process because Ramen isn't
(15:53):
something that's technically hard to makeyou don't need like Good knife skills.
You know, I look at people who makesushi and I watch their hands and I'm
just like it's like a magic trick to me.
It's so amazing.
Ramen is boiling stuff.
It's really like if you have ahead for sort of math and processes
(16:15):
um Good ramen is achievable.
Um, it is much less about,I think, technique than it
is about numbers, in a way.
And I think that attractsa certain kind of person.
And I am, I am sort of in that camp.
I, I, I am a kind of numbers guy, but I amalso a pinch of this, a pinch of that guy.
And there's room forthat in ramen as well.
(16:35):
Like, from bowl to bowl, you'realways tasting, always tweaking.
So, it's not all about the numbers, but...
I think if you are somebody who likesto, I don't know, get into percentages
in terms of hydration or temperaturesand timings and stuff like that,
it can be a satisfying project.
Lucy (16:53):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think it is.
I mean, I obviously know a lot lessabout ramen than you do, but to me, it
strikes me as it is a numbers thing,but it's also a taste thing, right?
And I think that's, it's abouttasting a bowl of something
and knowing what it needs.
And I think that, that arguably is a...
Tim (17:09):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I mean, there is always, you know, whenI'm testing recipes and I think when
anybody is, you'll take a slurp andanother one and think it needs something.
And then it is about what, figuring outwhat that thing or those things are.
This is really important because I thinka lot of people make ramen at home and
(17:32):
they think, Oh, it's not very good.
And I think that anybody who makes.
Ramen when they're first starting outincluding me have had this experience and
that's when these sort of five elementsreally come in you know that the noodles
have brought the today the oil and thetoppings and if any one of those things
is sort of out of whack if it's Not right,or if it's too much or too little the
whole bowl sort of feels unsatisfyingso like Writing this book has actually
(17:57):
sort of driven that home to me becausewhen I first started out In particular,
I thought, oh, it's all about the broth,and I think that's because of my my ramen
moment going way back to 2005 or whatever.
When I first had that spoonfulof broth, I thought, oh my god,
this is what it's all about.
So I spent a long time trying tonail the broth and kind of neglected
(18:18):
the other elements in the bowl.
And it took me a long time tofigure out, like, okay, no,
you need to work on the tare.
You need to make sure the noodles match.
You need to...
You know, really figure out thosetoppings and what works and what doesn't
and the oils and everything like that.
So it comes with experience, I guessyou, you know, the more, you know,
the better you get and the betteryou can troubleshoot, I suppose.
Lucy (18:39):
It makes sense with these five elements that you're talking about in
regards to the way that you've structuredthe book, but in some ways it's quite
an unusual structure for a recipe bookbecause most of the actual, what we
would consider to be recipes, whereit's amounts of things that are going
together to make something, they're forelements of the dishes rather than the
dishes themselves, which I guess is thenature of ramen, but um, yeah, as I was
(19:01):
kind of reading through it, it did strikeme as Um, yeah, kind of intriguing in
a way was did you know that's how youwanted to structure it the whole time?
Tim (19:10):
I did and now I have I have a little bit of regret in terms of not putting
more Recipes in there that you I can say.
Okay.
Here's a ramen that you can dostart to finish in X amount of
time, you know, boom boom boom.
You can do it in an hour.
You can do it in a day That's a purelycommercial thought because I know that
(19:33):
you know from experience And just fromseeing what's out there, people want
recipes that they can cook regularly.
It's not that you can't cook ramenregularly, but it is a bit of a project.
You need a sort of solid two daysto put together a bowl from scratch.
And, you know, I did a talk at abookshop in Bath where somebody was
like, Well, what can I, what recipe doyou recommend from the book where, you
(19:56):
know, that I can make, like, every day?
And I was like, uh, Ha ha ha.
I was like, you can't, well, whatI've been telling people now is, um,
all of the elements have differentuses outside of a bowl of ramen, like
the chashu recipes in particular.
You could have those on a bowl of ricewith some greens and it'd be a great meal.
The oils are great for roastingvegetables, or dressing salads,
(20:19):
or all kinds of different things,making mayonnaises and dressings.
Uh, and then there are ones that aresort of more stand alone, like there's
a whole chicken ramen recipe where yousort of, you poach the chicken and that
becomes your broth and your toppingsand you just add noodles basically.
Or my favorite, or one of my favorites,which is the Leftover Nando's one, uh,
Leftover Nando's Ramen, which soundsstupid, and it is, but it was surprisingly
(20:42):
good, otherwise I wouldn't have put itin the book, so like, And then that kind
of thing is there to show people, like,You know, anything can be ramen, and
you can, once you know the basics, onceyou have good noodles, and understand
seasoning in particular, anything canbecome ramen, and it doesn't necessarily
have to be a big project, and in fact,the book's being translated into German,
(21:05):
and um, they don't have Nando's inGermany, so they were like, what do we
do, and I said, what we settled on wasjust like, well, basically we can just
tell people, Order any chicken fromyour favorite chicken shop, follow this
process, season it up how you like it, andyou'll have a pretty good bowl of ramen.
That's the truth, I think, so.
Yeah, I mean, if I, I don't know.
(21:26):
Like I said, like, I, I, Iwant people to cook from it.
And I, I, I always want itto not be too, too nerdy.
But unfortunately, that's sortof the nature of the dish.
And I've been describing the book asa, as a one for serious beginners,
like I don't think it's, it's notincredibly nerdy or detailed, not as
(21:47):
much as it could be anyway, but havingsaid that, like, you have to be the
kind of person who really wants to...
Set the time aside to make a proper ball.
Lucy (21:56):
Yeah, for sure.
I'd also just like to give kudos tothe Nando's recipe for shouting out
one of the underrated Nando's menuitems, which is the chicken livers!
I love the Nando's chicken livers!
Yeah, well what I loved about therecipes that you've included for,
yeah, the Nando's leftovers thatyou've, um, that you've mentioned and
also the Full English ramen and the,uh, Wisconsin beer and cheese ramen.
(22:19):
Um, they're just really fun.
Like they're just like, itfeels very like funny to me.
Um, and I found it quite surprising ina book that, you know, as you're saying,
this isn't a book for serious nerds, butit is a book that takes ramen seriously.
And I really liked that, that there wasspace for that element of humor like that.
I kind of really appreciated that.
And they seem like really great recipes.
I'm excited to try them.
Tim (22:40):
Thanks.
I mean, this is sort ofa sticking point as well.
It's because.
There's a, there is this urge with anykind of food, and I think, you know, ramen
as well, which is to sort of be protectiveof some kind of idea of authenticity.
Which is a really tricky one with ramen,because I do respect that, and I, you
know, I will certainly like be unsatisfiedif some kind of ramen doesn't, certainly
(23:08):
if it doesn't follow the rules, i.
e.
like it's made incorrectly, it doesn'thave the right noodles, things like that.
Or if, if people describe it asone certain kind of style and
it doesn't represent that style.
But, all throughout ramen history,and especially now, in Japan, there
are variations that are based onjust one individual chef's sort
(23:30):
of idiosyncrasies and creativity.
I mean, there's a pizza ramen in the book.
And I, I, I know people wouldprobably look at that and they
think, ah, that's not, you know,that you're just being silly.
That's, that's not legit.
And, you know, we had thisat the restaurant too.
We did a curry goat ramen andthere's a French onion ramen
in one of my other books.
And I was just curious becausewhen I make these things, I, I, I,
(23:52):
they're done sort of in the spiritof this sort of creativity that you
get in the ramen world in Japan.
Um, and that is one of thethings that makes it special.
So I just googled it, and it turns outthere is a French onion ramen being served
in Japan, and it's even got a pastry lid.
Incredible.
Yeah, this kind of like silliness,I think it's important, like it's a
(24:16):
serious business ramen, but it alsoallows for a lot of fun and creativity.
I think that's part of, I think part ofthe reason behind that is because it's
always had this, This status of beingnot quite Japanese, you know, for decades
and decades after it was introduced toJapan, it was referred to as Chinese
food, as chuka soba or Chinese soba.
(24:39):
And it still sort of holds on tothat in some, some cases, especially
among like older generations.
And I think that that, um, hasallowed people in Japan to sort
of blow it up a bit and say,well, you know, this is not...
our food, we're not followingstrict traditions here, so we
can have a bit of fun with it.
As long as the rules are followed, anyway.
Lucy (24:59):
Yeah, fun within the rules.
The best kind of fun.
I wanted to talk to you about, uh,Nanban, actually, because I know it's
no longer running, but, um, I don'tknow, it feels like I can't talk to
you about your ramen book withoutasking you about your ramen restaurant.
What did you learn aboutcooking ramen in that setting?
Tim (25:18):
Oh, God.
Um.
What did I learn?
Okay, so If I could sort of reframe thequestion a little bit people are often
asking me are you ever gonna reopenor open another one and The answer is
(25:39):
basically no um, it's just One thingI've learned is about myself, which is
that i'm not really I'm not really cutout to work in a restaurant in the sense
that running a restaurant or working ina restaurant is often about firefighting
and solving problems as they come up.
You never have a day at arestaurant, or almost never, where
(25:59):
everything just goes smoothly.
You're always dealing with brokenequipment or staff not turning
up or, or some little minordisaster one right after the other.
I think that people who work inrestaurants, they kind of thrive uh,
in those kinds of I, I like thingsto be much more under control.
(26:20):
So if I were to ever open another one,I would try to maintain that control
by having it be a much smaller venue,like what you typically find in Japan
and, and having fewer staff so that Ican sort of spend more time with each
(26:40):
one of them, more sort of one on onetime talking to them through the whole.
Process and getting them to understandthe dish from the ground up because
the problem with having a bigger teamis that you've, you've sort of got
one guy off in the corner, choppingonions and you've got one person
on the other side of the kitchen,making the garlic oil or whatever.
And it's hard for them tosee it all come together.
(27:00):
Basically, like we tried to movepeople around the kitchen as much
as we could at Namban, but youstill end up sort of in this.
Sort of old school brigade system almostwhere one person's doing one thing on one
section and one person's doing another.
So that's, that's hard and that's,that's really not how ramen
shops operate in Japan generally.
You have everybody doingeverything in the line.
(27:20):
So you can really, like there's nohead chef in a ramen shop in Japan.
It's just a few people putting a bowltogether basically and then being
involved with every part of that bowl.
So keeping it small, keeping it undercontrol, keeping the menu small as well
so that you have more Focus, I guess,on really getting every element right.
(27:41):
This is what I would doif I were to do it again.
And then, sort of, some lifestyle choices.
That would be different.
For one thing, I would love, and Idon't know if this is possible with
London Rent, but I would love to beable to like, sell the broth until it
runs out, and then close up at 3pm.
You know, like, So I can have alife as well, and pick up my kids
(28:01):
from school and stuff like that.
Charge a lot for the ramen.
I would love to be able to charge 20pounds, 25 pounds for a bowl of ramen so
that then you can pay the staff more sothat you can buy the better ingredients.
You know, there's this real expectationin the UK and in Japan and in Japan, it's
much more fair, I think, but like peoplewant ramen to be cheap, but I think that
(28:23):
that's part of the appeal of the dish.
But.
It's expensive, making ramen is like,it's an expensive process, like, the
noodles that we get are, you know, 75pa portion sometimes, the broth itself
can cost a pound with the amount ofbones that go into it, you've got the
toppings and everything, and then ofcourse the staff at the rent, and it's,
it's, it's not cheap, and nowadays, sortof the going rate for ramen in London is
(28:44):
probably around 15 pounds, which I thinkis fair, absolutely fair, but I think
it actually probably should be more.
Just to make a more sustainablebusiness, basically.
So, yeah.
Sorry, I don't know if thatanswers your question, but, um...
Lucy (29:00):
No, I think it does answer your question.
I think I actually, I actuallymisphrased the question slightly,
which was, what have you learnedfrom cooking ramen in that setting,
not what have you learned about it,which I think is slightly different.
So I think you did actually answerthe question that I meant to ask.
Right.
So that's great.
We both got there.
Um, but yeah, that's really in, that'sso interesting because I think something
that really, yeah, something that reallycame to me when I was reading the book
(29:22):
was that, um, it seems unbelievablethat a bowl of ramen could cost as
like less than 20 pounds when youconsider the work that goes into it.
So yeah, I can, I completely understandwhere you're coming from there.
Um, and also I, I feel like.
Ramen shops aren't really athing that we have here, right?
It's, they're kind of an outlier,like, I think, I mean, I'm, I
(29:43):
don't know if there's any...
kind of exceptions to that rule that you,you know, and you want to tell us about.
But yeah, it's not really a conceptthat a lot of people are familiar with.
Tim (29:55):
You're right.
We have ramen restaurants.
You know, these places can be quitededicated and specialized to some
degree, but they all, includingus, they all serve other dishes,
small plates, stuff like that.
Which of course, isn't likeunheard of in Japan either.
You get, you know, all kinds ofstandard side dishes like rice or.
Karaage, stuff like that, gyoza, um,and you even have like ramen izakaya in
(30:18):
Japan that have fuller menus as well.
But I think there's less of anemphasis generally in the UK on,
on specializing, uh, and that's,that's in any genre of cooking.
You know, we, we don't reallyhave dedicated yakitori places.
We have very few sort ofdedicated okonomiyaki places.
Even sushi, I mean, people now...
(30:40):
I think have more respect for sushiand the whole omakase experience, where
you get sushi and you get it in a waythat is, the chef basically dictates.
But, yeah, beyond that, people, Imean, we, it's funny, we, we had
people walk out of the restaurantbecause we didn't serve sushi.
Or because we didn't serve prawn tempura.
(31:00):
Like these sort of dishes thatpeople expect from Japanese food,
and they think, oh, you're a Japaneserestaurant, you must serve it.
Which, I don't know where thatcomes from, um, it's, it's
very, very different from Japan.
And even to some extent from America,where, you know, you go to a restaurant
for that one thing that they do.
I think part of it is thatpeople go out here more, more to
(31:24):
socialize than anything, ratherthan to sit down and eat the food.
But I don't know, that'soversimplifying it, because obviously...
Well, ramen is different.
Ramen is not a social food in Japan.
You order your food, you usually go alone.
If you go with a friend,you don't talk to them.
You sit down, you slurp, and you leave.
Lucy (31:42):
No, I think, I really think you're onto something here, because I think when
you, um, it made me think about this,actually, when you, when you introduced
the full English ramen, and you kindof justify writing this recipe because
you make a comparison between the ideaof going to a cafe and having a full
English and having ramen in a ramen shop.
And I think, I think there's actually likea real, there is a real parallel there.
(32:02):
Like you talk about it beingquite a working class food,
which I think is really accurate.
And also like, I think people wouldoften, I guess there is some element
of socializing in a cafe and it is a.
You know, third space or whatever youwant to call it, but there is also like
an element that you're going there tofuel up and like, you might enjoy how it
tastes, but it feels quite like, um, Idon't know what the word is, but you're
(32:23):
not going there for kind of like a, anelevated, I hate that word, but like
a kind of rarefied dining experience.
It's very like you're there to like fuel.
So I guess it is comparable.
Tim (32:34):
Get the protein and get the fat and get the carbs in.
And get out.
And get out.
I mean, a cab is probably afriendlier place to linger
than most ramen shops, but.
And that's an important point, too, is,is these, because there's a, there's a
contingent in, in the ramen scene thatsort of wants to elevate, it wants to
(32:54):
make everything a little bit more refined.
And I have respect for that.
But, like in the case of afull English, that doesn't
necessarily make the dish better.
Like, sometimes the bestramen is the sloppiest, most,
like, thrown together thing.
Like, I, I, I mentioned Ramen Jido in thebook, which, which does have, of course,
(33:15):
a, a certain process that goes into it,and a, a, a certain amount of thought.
But it is also, like, Ramen Jido isone of the most chaotic, dirty...
Ramen shops I've ever seen, and I'm notthe only one who thinks this, like, you go
in there, and I'll never forget this, thechef, the master, he's in there dipping
his hands into boiling noodle water tocheck if the noodles are done, with his
(33:37):
fingertips, and he's got a bandaid onone of them, and it's like, and there's
another guy stirring the broth with abig wooden beam, it looks like a fence
post, and like, there's grease all overthe walls, And you just go in there and
you think, man, this is not, but, butthen it comes down to taste and it's
about like, it's about experience and,and I guess a certain kind of technique.
(33:59):
It's, it's not about like dialingin individual elements and making
sure that everything is just right.
It's about sort of adjustingon the fly and, and it's
about filling you up cheaply.
It's, and that to me is as important,if not a more important sort
of aspect or part of, of ramenculture is this sort of like.
You know, here's something that ismade to a certain level of care,
(34:26):
but also just meant to sort of likeput meat on your bones and fill
you up cheaply without being at allpretentious or precise, basically.
And I really do think that that issort of an important part of ramen
culture I want people to understand.
Because the original ramen, at leastif you read sort of the history
(34:47):
books on it, uh, like Slurp byBarrett Kushner is my favorite.
He describes one of the original sort ofproto ramen, Champon, as a dish of scraps.
Like, literally like, and itstill is in a lot of ways.
It's bones, and like, Not primecuts of pork and wheat flour.
Like it's a cheap, simple, humbledish made from nothing special.
(35:11):
I think if you can get that, ifyou can, if you can start with
not anything special ingredientsthat make a great bowl of ramen.
Then, you're a pro.
You've got all my respect, basically.
If you start with great ingredientsand make a great bowl of ramen,
it's like, eh, who cares?
Anybody can do it.
Lucy (35:29):
Something from nothing.
That's what we want.
I wanted to ask you about, um, kindof that idea of being an expert.
Um, because it's something I sort of thinkabout a lot when it comes to, I guess,
the voices we hear in the food world.
And...
Japanese food, I feel like in thiscountry, there are obviously people
who have been writing about it for along time, but there isn't kind of a,
(35:52):
a big breadth and wealth of voices,it's kind of a few people, and I
wonder how you feel about being seenas this expert voice, particularly
as somebody who's not Japanese.
Tim (36:02):
Yeah, I don't know.
Um, I, um, for onething, it's all relative.
And if you're the guy in the roomwho knows the most about something,
or more than anybody else, rather,They're going to call you the expert,
whether or not you feel that yourself.
And they're going to belooking to you for answers.
And I accept that.
(36:24):
Like, if I, if people come to meand they say, we would like to know
about Japanese food to some degree,whether it's in the form of a book
or doing the radio or whatever,I'll say, okay, here's what I know.
Here's my opinions on it.
Here's what I've learned.
But, you're absolutely right that Ican't be the only one and I can't be,
(36:45):
I can't be the first stop, basically.
Um, I think you've got to find theright person for the right job.
So, I'll give you an examplewhere I didn't do that.
Or I did not follow that rule.
That's my vegan book.
That's the book I probablyshouldn't have written.
I did my best.
They asked me, can you do a vegan book?
And I said, okay, I knowsome things about that.
(37:06):
But really, that's a wholeother tradition in Japan.
And I mentioned it in the book,there's shojin yori, which is this
Buddhist vegetarian tradition.
Um, and I said, I basically say in thebook, like, I don't know enough about
this to write about it, so here's abunch of other dishes I can write about.
Whereas, in retrospect, I probablyshould have passed on that one and
said, I'm not your expert here.
(37:26):
I can do ramen.
I can do easy Japanese home cooking.
I can do izakaya food.
But there's somebody else out there who isgoing to be able to explain this better.
So I guess that's sort of thething is you've got to find the
right expert for the right topic.
And when it comes to Japanese food and I,you know, any, any kind of food really,
there is so much within that food.
(37:49):
It's not just one thing.
There are individual dishes.
There are sub genres.
Um, there's historical recipes.
There's sort of modern fine dining.
There's all these different elementsto all these different foods.
And so it's about sort of, Ithink, uh, knowing, figuring out
what your wheelhouse is and thenstaying within that to some degree.
(38:13):
Then it's a two way street.
It's like, uh, you know, people have to,when they're looking for expertise, they
have to find the right person just asmuch as people who are in that position
have to say yes or no, basically.
And one thing I would, I would like to seemore of are, and this is again a situation
(38:33):
where it's sort of a two way street.
I'd like to see more interest inregional Japanese food, and then finding
the right person to talk about that.
I did a book on Tokyo aswell, Tokyo local foods.
And then the topic came upat the publisher, it's like,
okay, well, what about Kyoto?
(38:54):
What about Osaka?
What about Okinawa?
All these other kind of regions.
Like, yeah, absolutely,somebody should do these books.
But not me.
And also, the demand has to be there.
That's a commercial consideration.
But like, you know, woulda book on Kyoto food sell?
I don't know.
But if it does, thenabsolutely it should be done.
(39:16):
And it should be somebody who reallyknows that cuisine well to do it.
Yeah,
Lucy (39:20):
I think that's a really good point, and this is all very much tied
in with the commercial aspect of it.
Kind of, when you frame it in that way,it feels strange that the people who have
the most power in which voices are heardin food are the people who are trying
to sell something, which obviously,like, in the society we live in.
Makes a lot of sense, like, it's the waythat we live, but it's also, like, quite,
it's quite fucked up, and, yeah, and, youknow, I appreciate you sharing that about
(39:45):
the, the vegan book, I think that's reallyinteresting to have had that reflection
that actually, you know, outside of themoment that you agreed to do it, um,
maybe somebody else could have writtenit, but it's also, I respect that it's
really hard to say no to those things.
Tim (39:58):
Well, that's it, I mean, this is now my livelihood, this is my career.
And so, like any sort of, basically,freelancer, it's hard to turn down work.
Although, now, luckily, some of thebooks are paying royalties, so I have
a little bit more financial freedomto say no to things, basically.
And we've had conversations with thepublisher, and we're, to be honest,
(40:21):
we're a little bit stuck right now.
Because, you know, finding Venn diagramwhere it's something that they want.
Something that readers want and somethingthat I want and also can do That's
becoming harder and harder to pin down.
So You know, I could write aboutJapanese food forever, because
that's the nature of the subject.
(40:41):
It just, it goes on forever, butit would require more research,
sort of, on the ground in Japan.
I'm limited by living here.
Lucy (40:50):
We all are limited by living here.
Tim (40:52):
Tell me about it.
So, it's, it's, yeah, it's a tricky one.
And, you know, I'm atthe point now where we...
What I would love to do is sort of dowhat Oto Lengi has started doing with
these co authored books And I don't knowexactly what sort of form that would
take if it would ever take form But likebecause I love writing the books and I
love the sort of learning and researchthat goes into them but It'd be great
(41:17):
to sort of collaborate with people onspecialist subjects who who who know
more than I do basically and get them Gettheir perspective in there Their voices.
Sometimes I think, to be completelyhonest, it's like, well, I've
done the writing, and I'veenjoyed it, and I still enjoy it.
But at this point, it's almost like, well,I want to be the commissioning editor now.
(41:38):
I want to start finding other people whoI think are interesting and could write
interesting things about Japanese food.
And putting them out there, becauseI want to see their books, you know?
I don't have that power other thanrecommending people, I suppose.
Lucy (41:50):
This is, I love this.
I mean, you could do this, Tim.
I believe that, you know, an independentpublishing house that publishes.
But was it, yeah, I mean, to come backto what you said about the Ottolenghi
model, I think that's such a good point.
Um, and it is such, I think that'ssuch an interesting and valuable
use of a platform that he has.
To really bring people in, and I thinkit was something that he maybe didn't
(42:12):
always do and has definitely mademore effort to, um, give people the
credit they deserve in, in this way.
And I think that's, that would be a reallyinteresting avenue for you to go down,
um, and I personally would love to see it.
Tim (42:25):
Tell my publisher.
I don't know.
Lucy (42:29):
I'll tag them in there.
It is so difficult because there are somany people with fantastic ideas and,
but yeah, it's about the market at theend of the day and, and that's, the
trouble is that people buy books fromthings they know about already, I guess.
Tim (42:45):
There are an awful lot of Japanese cookbooks that are basically
kind of the same book, which areclassic, simple home cooking books.
I honestly, I love those kinds of books.
I really do.
And I think the thing is you can,um, you can have both, you can have
the sort of simple Easy recipes,accessible recipes, that are also
sort of more specific to differentregions or subcultures of, of Japan.
(43:10):
I'm working on a book aboutHokkaido food right now, which is
sort of a lifelong dream project.
And there's a lot of stuff that I, Ican't really put in the book because
it's, it's sort of too difficulteven for me, in terms of technique or
sourcing ingredients in particular.
But there's also plenty ofstuff that is super simple.
And delicious, and that uses ingredientsthat are really widely available.
(43:34):
I almost think of it as, you coulddo it almost like a Trojan horse.
You can write a book that says on thecover, like, easy Japanese comfort food
or whatever, and have the book be likehalf that, and then have that other
half be like, a bunch of weird shit.
Not weird shit, but you know what I mean,like, here's a bunch of stuff maybe people
(43:54):
don't know about, and, and, get them to,uh, expand their Japanese food horizons.
Almost in a sneaky way.
Lucy (44:04):
I mean I think there's something in that.
I just interviewed Clarissa Weiwho has a book out called Made in
Taiwan and um, she basically waslike, none of these recipes are easy.
Like, you need to understand this isnot like an everyday cookbook that
people are going to use every night.
This is a process of documentation.
Like, this is...
I mean, obviously, politically, Taiwanis in a very different position to Japan,
(44:26):
and that's kind of some of the motivationfor writing the book, was that if we
don't write these recipes down now andspeak to these people about what they
cook, we might never have the chanceagain, which is obviously a, there's a
lot more impetus there, but, you know,I, It's, it made me really think about
the idea of what a recipe means becauseI think I've been guilty in the past
of writing off the recipe book as kindof quite a cosy, um, you know, thing.
(44:49):
And I love recipe books, I have many, butI think I've really come to understand
its power as like a political tool.
Yeah.
So yeah, there you go.
Tim (44:58):
That is, uh.
Interesting thing you're bringingup, actually, because part of the
challenge of writing the book aboutHokkaido is addressing Ainu food.
Ainu are this indigenous groupin Hokkaido and also live in
the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin.
And they were basically, their culture wasalmost wiped out by the Japanese imperial
(45:19):
government in the late 19th century.
But now it's having this cultural revival.
And even talking about that story...
As an outsider to the culture, feels likealmost something I don't want to touch.
It has to be talked about, butlike, it doesn't feel like it's my
(45:40):
place to criticize or politicize.
So this is something I'm like,just being, trying to be very
mindful of at the moment.
Um, while also realizing thatthis is a, uh, this will be an
introduction to this food culturethat a lot of people don't know about.
So like.
It is tricky, and I think that what I'mtrying to do, like what I've sort of,
(46:03):
uh, Uh, my strategy that I've landedon is, uh, is not be overtly political,
Not sort of give my two cents in thebook too much, But just in talking about
it, you are sort of making a statement.
Mm.
Whether or not people sort of receivethat statement or not I guess is
up to the reader, And how stronglyI sort of convey it, but like, The
(46:27):
story has to be told, I suppose.
And that in itself is kind of political.
This is the thing.
My, my job is really like, I considermyself sort of a professional enthusiast.
My job is to sort of like say,Hey, look at all this great stuff.
Look at, look at whatwe can learn from Japan.
Cause it's, it's brought me alot of joy and understanding
not to say, Ooh, no, no, no.
(46:49):
Bad things here, like, you know, that,that feels hypocritical in a way, and,
and just not my place, but on the otherhand, like, you can't avoid it sometimes,
so, it's tricky, it's really tricky.
The sort of main tension in the book,I guess, is, and I think this is a
(47:15):
tension in ramen, making ramen generally.
Is the sort of the balance betweendoing something properly and sort
of by the books and nailing thebasics and also making your own.
Because I think that this isnot just about ramen, this is
(47:36):
about Japanese food generally.
Because I think that every typeof Japanese food has that, has
both those things within it.
And I've talked in the bookand elsewhere about how...
Noodle cultures like udon and soba don'tsee as many regional variations and as
many sort of creative takes on it inJapan But that's less and less true.
(47:57):
And and I think that nowadays whenI go to Japan I go to udon shops or
soba shops I'm amazed at actuallywhat chefs are doing with it.
I had an udon moment in Shinjuku Severalyears ago where they made a kind of a
carbonara udon But I don't think theyinvented or anything like that, but it
was basically like hot udon Served witha little bit of So you top with butter,
(48:19):
cheese, and a slab of tempura bacon.
And I was just like, I didn'tknow udon could be this.
And, and, but they'd also, obviouslythey knew what they were doing in
terms of making the noodles and,and the, the, the fundamentals.
And I think that, you know.
When people talk about what you canor can't do with food, especially if
it's not your culture's food, there'snot that many limits in terms of like,
(48:43):
if you want to go crazy with toppingsor, or creative takes on something.
You know, I already mentioned the pizzaramen, which exists in Japan, or, or curry
ramen, or all these different things.
French onion ramen, whatever.
But if you haven't sort of respectedthe basics and got the, the fundamental
understanding right, then you can't do it.
(49:05):
I'm not gonna say can't, but like,And not just because it's sort of
disrespectful, but also because it justwon't be good, like you have to sort of...
And also you gotta, you gotta eat.
You gotta eat as much ramen asyou can to sort of understand it.
You really do.
It's not just about the makingand understanding the process.
It's about understanding thesort of sensory impact, I guess.
(49:28):
And how the noodlesfeel when you chew them.
And how the hot lard on topworks, and all this stuff.
It really is like...
When you have a bowl oframen in it, it doesn't work.
Or when it does, rather.
That is one of the hardest things todescribe because it's about so many
different things sort of coming together.
(49:49):
And understanding, I guess, thefundamentals will help you understand
what makes that alchemy happen, I guess.
That's what I want to say.
Yeah, it's a very fun dishto play around with, but...
You know, do your homework, . That's all.
Lucy (50:07):
Lecker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy.
Dear Love, thanks tomy guest, Tim Anderson.
Rama Forever is out now publishedby Hardy Grant as part of
this monthly LE Book Club.
I'll be writing about the book overon the Le Substack and Patreon.
Have you been cooking from it too?
(50:28):
Come and chat about your favorite risk.
Or tag me on Instagram anydishes you've made from it.
I'd love to see them.
And before I go, I'd like to remindyou that you can also sign up as a paid
subscriber to support Lekka on ApplePodcasts, Patreon, Substack as well.
Links will be in the show notes.
There's a series that's runningat the moment, very slowly, thank
(50:49):
you for your patience, about foodpackaging called Out of the Box.
So subscribe to get full access to that.
And to any paid subscribers whoare listening here, anyone who's.
Subscribe recently.
Thank you so much foryour continued support.
It's much appreciated music in theepisode is by blue dot sessions.
Thanks very much for listening.
This is Lecker.
I'm Lucy Dearlove.
This month on the Lecker Club,Ramen Forever by Tim Anderson.
Ramen has ended up as a kind ofcornerstone of Tim Anderson's life.
As he writes in the book Ramen Forever,it was originally his love of ramen that
took him to live in Japan, which steeredthe course of his future in many ways.
(00:30):
Including that he met his wife there.
Avid food TV watchers in the UKmay also remember that ramen was at
the heart of his MasterChef storywhen Tim won the series in 2011.
Ramen was his winningmain course in the final.
He also previously ran a ramen restaurantin Brixton which was called Nanban,
opening in 2015 and it closed in 2021.
(00:53):
But, although he's now got five cookbooksalready to his name, he's never written
a book entirely about ramen before.
Until now.
Tim (01:01):
There's a Mickey Mantle quote I read recently where I think he said
something like, it's amazing to realizehow little you know about the game
you've been playing your whole life.
Something like that.
And I really felt thatwriting the ramen book.
Lucy (01:18):
I found this such an interesting conversation, not just about ramen, but
also about the nature of cookbook writingand power dynamics within publishing.
Tim spoke about his work and hisapproach to it with an honesty that.
I think is really generous, and Ifeel like I really got an insight in
what it takes to write recipes fora living in the way that he does.
Including that feeling that you might nothave got something completely right when
(01:42):
it goes off to print, or that someoneelse might have been better placed to
write something that you agreed to.
I'm really grateful to Tim for this,because it made what I knew would be
an interesting conversation anywayeven more enjoyable, and I hope
that you get a lot out of it too.
And if nothing else, You'll be temptedto make that leftover Nando's ramen.
I began by asking Tim about somethingthat he opens ramen forever with.
(02:07):
What ramen is, but also what it isn't.
Tim (02:16):
Yeah, it's kind of a big question.
I mean, on the one hand,the answer is very simple.
Because ramen is like, when you boilit down, no pun intended, it becomes
a very simple thing, and that is...
alkaline wheat noodles in broth.
I used to also sort of add a, a caveatto that, which is that it had to be a
(02:39):
meat broth, just cause that's what it'ssort of always traditionally has been.
And that's what sets it apart,especially from other kinds of
traditional Japanese noodle soups.
One of the things anyway, but youknow, nowadays it's all broths and, and
vegetarian or vegan versions as well.
So I don't think that's part ofit, but that is sort of one of the.
(03:02):
Historically defining features of it,but it's the alkaline wheat noodles,
the wheat noodles that have Kansuipotassium carbonate and sodium carbonate
in them that really makes ramen ramenand distinct from other kinds of noodles.
And this is yeah.
Ramen, the word as it's used in,uh, Britain and I think English
speaking countries, generallypeople take it to mean sort of any.
(03:24):
Sort of noodle soup.
I think any kind of Asian noodle soup,which isn't true, obviously Ramen is
a particular kind of noodle soup froma particular place and other kinds
of noodle soups are other kind ofparticular noodle soups So you see kind
of absurd things in shops and on thehigh street chains like Ramen Udon or
(03:46):
Laksa Ramen and it's like Ramen Udonis like saying spaghetti gnocchi or,
you know, it just makes absolutely nosense if you know what these words mean.
If I have one thing that I wantpeople to sort of take away from
the book, it is actually just that.
It's that ramen is ramen andramen has to have alkaline salts
(04:07):
in it, kansui, or it isn't ramen.
And for me with ramen, There issomething special and unique about
the texture that you get in thenoodles that does come from Kansui.
So, it's not just a matterof me being pedantic.
It is like sort of, you know, ramenfor me and a lot of people is a special
(04:27):
thing and that's what makes it special.
That's one of the thingsthat makes it special.
Now, having said that, there areother types of noodles in Chinese
traditions that do use Kansuiand are basically the same dish.
But I think you also have to respectthose dishes and not call them ramen,
even though they sort of technically fitthe definition like wonton noodle soup.
(04:50):
Cause I don't know enough aboutChinese food culture to come up with
a lot of examples, but wonton noodlesoup is one that I know uses alkaline
wheat noodles in a meat broth.
You could say, oh, it's ramen, but reallyI think when you do that, you're also sort
of showing your hand to somebody who'snot that familiar with that particular
dish, and you would never sort of conflatethe two if you did know the difference.
(05:12):
But, you know, also, this definitionis a little bit sort of unsatisfying
because Ramen has other elementsbeyond the noodles and the broth,
and that's the toppings, the oils,um, and the tare, the seasoning.
And all these things are importantin sort of determining what is
ramen and, and, um, complicating it.
And all these things have to be takeninto consideration when you discuss
(05:33):
sort of regional variations and, Sortof new, modern variations, which are
also like, have to be understood as,as part of the definition of ramen.
It's not just wheat noodles in brothor alkaline wheat noodles in broth.
It is all of the variations that youget from that starting point as well.
So it's simple, but it'salso complicated, basically.
Lucy (05:55):
Yeah.
It's a big question to start with.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Well, thank you for that.
That's very interesting.
And from what I understand, andfrom what you write in the book.
Ramen is a big part of your life, it'sa big part of your kind of personal,
I guess, like, story around food.
How is it important to you?
Can you remember thefirst time you ate it?
Tim (06:12):
I can't really remember the first time I ate it because I think for, like,
a lot of people, the first time I ate itwas, would have been in its instant form.
Growing up, we always hadpackets of Maruchan or Sapporo
Ichiban in the cupboard.
They were just sort of, like, part ofthe fabric of Midwestern American food,
like, Everybody I knew ate instant ramen.
(06:34):
They cost maybe 10 cents a pack backthen, like they were incredibly cheap.
They're one of the first thingsyou learn to cook when you
can't cook like as a teenager.
So that would have been my firstbasic introduction to ramen.
And also I want to say like, theremay be people thinking, oh, that's
not really ramen, but I think it is.
I think you can't dismiss instant ramen.
(06:54):
It's like a huge part ofthe ramen culture as well.
And a huge part of what sort ofmade it popular around the world.
Like Introducing people to the dish inthat format and getting them on board
with the whole concept of, like, longnoodles in broth, like, that's important.
So that would have been the firsttime when I grew up eating those.
Uh, and then when I went to college,uh, I went to college in Los Angeles
(07:18):
and that was partly because I wasalready interested in Japanese
food and I knew that there wasa lot more to learn about there.
Because of the Japanese diasporapopulation, and it's just much
more established and diverse.
So, I started eating ramen in shopslike in Little Tokyo in LA, um, and on
Sawtelle Boulevard, um, stuff like that.
And it didn't really, like, hit me.
(07:40):
Like, I had a lot of sort of whatI would now, I guess, I might sort
of realize were just sort of...
This sounds mean, but they werejust sort of like nothing special
kinds of bowls, so they didn'treally have much of an impact on me.
But then...
There was a night where I was out inLittle Tokyo with a group of friends
and there were sort of too many ofus We hadn't booked anywhere to eat.
(08:00):
We couldn't get anywhere and there wasthis restaurant that we finally stumbled
across called Daikoku Yacht Whichis still there and very popular now.
We would never have been able toget in there now But they took us
all in there were like seven of us.
It was ridiculous.
We sat at the counter and And it wasmy first bowl of tonkotsu ramen, and
I'd never had anything like it before.
(08:21):
It was, you know, most of the ramenI'd had had like a kind of a thinner
broth, a shio or a shoyu kindof old school Tokyo style broth.
And this one was rich and porky and fatty.
And it was just mesmerizing because itwas about the broth, but it was also about
the noodles I think it was probably thefirst time I recognized that the noodles
themselves Were something special andthen it had all this contrast as you
(08:45):
eat it because you get the pork bellythe chashu that sort of flakes apart
falls apart and and slurp that up andthen you get a bit of pickled ginger
some spring onions a bit of crunchybean sprout and it's just this sort
of like really involving bowl of food.
Um, and that was sort of my ramen moment.
That was, that was reallywhat kicked it off.
And it really did kick it off.
(09:05):
Like, I, I went to Daikokuya probablyon average every other week for, it
would have been two or three years.
Until the time I left L.
A.
We were regulars there.
Me and my friends, or my girlfriend.
And, um, they onlyreally served one thing.
So that's how, that's how good it was.
It just kept me coming back justfor that one particular thing.
(09:28):
But, you know, during thistime I also went to, I applied
for a research grant in 2005.
Or, uh, 2004, something likethat to go and study noodles.
Cause I was already studyingJapanese history and culture.
I majored in Japanese studies.
And, um, I, I put this pitch together,sort of studying the history of the
different kinds of noodle culturesin Japan, soba, udon, ramen, and the
(09:52):
differences between them and, and whythey were established where they were.
But anyway, I wound up focusingmost of my research on the
Shin Yokohama Ramen Museum.
And that trip was also like justthis massive education in terms of.
how significant, how big the dish is,both in terms of sort of its, its cultural
impact and how, how much of a sort of, uh,nostalgic food it is for people in Japan,
(10:17):
but also how really, really regional anddiverse it is and how you could live a
whole lifetime eating ramen every day andnot ever reach the end of it, basically.
Lucy (10:29):
What I'm really curious about is that it's obviously
such an important dish to you.
Well, you know, like I guess dishis maybe diminishing it slightly.
Um, But this is your,this is your sixth book.
Yeah, right?
Why did it take you so longto write a book about ramen?
Tim (10:46):
The publishers are running out of ideas.
Not really.
Lucy (10:52):
Like finally you can do it Tim, you can do the ramen book.
Tim (10:56):
The funny thing is, um, that's a great question.
So my very first book, Nanban, is aboutthe food of Kyushu and a little bit of
Okinawa with some of my own sort of takeson that type of food and what I had been
serving at pop ups in London at the time.
(11:17):
And there's a big chapter onramen, but it's really quite basic.
Like, uh, at the time I thought,oh, I'm publishing these recipes
that are, you know, they're goingto be great because it's going
to showcase a little bit about...
The diversity of at least within Kyushuand the different styles there, Champon
and Kumamoto Ramen and things like these,um, which is still some of my favorites.
(11:38):
But really like, the, the, therecipes are too basic in that book.
They, they weren't that well researched.
There's not a lot of information onthe, almost no variation actually,
information on the variation interms of tare and noodles in them.
Um, it's a bit too simplistic.
It's a bit too, uh, toomuch of an overview I guess.
So.
It's not like I was sort of itchingto do another ramen book for a long
(12:02):
time, but this, this was a goodopportunity to really dive deeper.
There's less of the regional variations,but more in terms of a sort of
nuts and bolts understanding of howthose variations are made basically,
uh, in each element within them.
But getting into the sort of, you know,why now side of it to answer that question
(12:23):
is doing these books is, has always been.
Collaboration I guess you could saybetween me and the publisher and you
know They have mostly to be honestbeen ideas that have come from my
publisher and they said we want todo this Can you do it and I've said?
Okay, or no But with ramen it felt likesomething I could do But it was daunting
(12:45):
still it was Because it is such a hugetopic and it's one of these things where
it's like there's a Mickey Mantle quoteI read recently where I think he said
something like It's amazing to realizehow little you know about the game
you've been playing your whole life.
Something like that.
And, and I really felt thatwriting the ramen book.
(13:07):
On the one hand, as I was testingrecipes, I was like, oh good,
these recipes are working.
And it's like, well,yeah, of course they are.
I've been making ramen for a long time.
But on the other hand, I waslike, man, but I can't, you know,
there's still so much I don't know.
And there's so much thatI, I can't fit in the book.
And it's like, I don't know, I'vedone my best to, um, say what I think
(13:29):
I guess is important about ramen,but try to encourage people to do
their own extended research, I guess.
Which people do anyway, theydon't need me to tell them that.
Lucy (13:40):
Yeah, very true.
I feel like it's something thatpeople have very strong opinions
about, so that must have beenquite a daunting task in some ways.
Tim (13:47):
It is, it is scary.
There is a very big sortof ramen nerd community.
Um out there on the on the internet I usethe word nerd mostly affectionately With
some caveats, yeah, because I am one ofthem anyway but yeah so far the response
from that community from you know peopleI I Follow and chat to on Instagram and
(14:10):
stuff has been really positive But I'm notgonna go hunting around reddit or whatever
for comments about Where my book hasfallen short or got it wrong or whatever
like, you know things like that becauseyeah I don't know what it is about ramen,
but it seems to really Get a lot of peoplevery passionate and that's the thing.
I didn't I didn't want to let themdown I guess more than anything
Lucy (14:32):
Yeah, that's, that's funny.
Actually, I was going to ask youwhat you think it is about ramen in
particular that does inspire this kindof cult like devotion, but I guess
it's one of life's great mysteries.
Tim (14:43):
I think about this all the time, to be honest.
And so I think for one thing, there isan undeniable sort of impact of this
dish, even at its sort of most soothingand subtle, it's still like a large
portion of salty food with a fillingamount of noodles in it and broth.
And it's got, you know, bags of umamiand all this contrast, like, like you'd
(15:06):
get from so many different kinds of foodsthat also inspire a similar kind of nerdy
devotion, like burgers or pizza, youknow, these are similar foods that you
can really fiddle with and tinker with.
But I also think that there issomething, you know, I don't
want to get too, I don't know.
(15:27):
Ethnographic or something, but there isa certain kind of person who is attracted
to ramen into making it That and I Iput myself in this category that I think
is a kind of a control freak kind ofpersonality um People who really like to
sort of like dial in specificities of arecipe and a process because Ramen isn't
(15:53):
something that's technically hard to makeyou don't need like Good knife skills.
You know, I look at people who makesushi and I watch their hands and I'm
just like it's like a magic trick to me.
It's so amazing.
Ramen is boiling stuff.
It's really like if you have ahead for sort of math and processes
(16:15):
um Good ramen is achievable.
Um, it is much less about,I think, technique than it
is about numbers, in a way.
And I think that attractsa certain kind of person.
And I am, I am sort of in that camp.
I, I, I am a kind of numbers guy, but I amalso a pinch of this, a pinch of that guy.
And there's room forthat in ramen as well.
(16:35):
Like, from bowl to bowl, you'realways tasting, always tweaking.
So, it's not all about the numbers, but...
I think if you are somebody who likesto, I don't know, get into percentages
in terms of hydration or temperaturesand timings and stuff like that,
it can be a satisfying project.
Lucy (16:53):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think it is.
I mean, I obviously know a lot lessabout ramen than you do, but to me, it
strikes me as it is a numbers thing,but it's also a taste thing, right?
And I think that's, it's abouttasting a bowl of something
and knowing what it needs.
And I think that, that arguably is a...
Tim (17:09):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I mean, there is always, you know, whenI'm testing recipes and I think when
anybody is, you'll take a slurp andanother one and think it needs something.
And then it is about what, figuring outwhat that thing or those things are.
This is really important because I thinka lot of people make ramen at home and
(17:32):
they think, Oh, it's not very good.
And I think that anybody who makes.
Ramen when they're first starting outincluding me have had this experience and
that's when these sort of five elementsreally come in you know that the noodles
have brought the today the oil and thetoppings and if any one of those things
is sort of out of whack if it's Not right,or if it's too much or too little the
whole bowl sort of feels unsatisfyingso like Writing this book has actually
(17:57):
sort of driven that home to me becausewhen I first started out In particular,
I thought, oh, it's all about the broth,and I think that's because of my my ramen
moment going way back to 2005 or whatever.
When I first had that spoonfulof broth, I thought, oh my god,
this is what it's all about.
So I spent a long time trying tonail the broth and kind of neglected
(18:18):
the other elements in the bowl.
And it took me a long time tofigure out, like, okay, no,
you need to work on the tare.
You need to make sure the noodles match.
You need to...
You know, really figure out thosetoppings and what works and what doesn't
and the oils and everything like that.
So it comes with experience, I guessyou, you know, the more, you know,
the better you get and the betteryou can troubleshoot, I suppose.
Lucy (18:39):
It makes sense with these five elements that you're talking about in
regards to the way that you've structuredthe book, but in some ways it's quite
an unusual structure for a recipe bookbecause most of the actual, what we
would consider to be recipes, whereit's amounts of things that are going
together to make something, they're forelements of the dishes rather than the
dishes themselves, which I guess is thenature of ramen, but um, yeah, as I was
(19:01):
kind of reading through it, it did strikeme as Um, yeah, kind of intriguing in
a way was did you know that's how youwanted to structure it the whole time?
Tim (19:10):
I did and now I have I have a little bit of regret in terms of not putting
more Recipes in there that you I can say.
Okay.
Here's a ramen that you can dostart to finish in X amount of
time, you know, boom boom boom.
You can do it in an hour.
You can do it in a day That's a purelycommercial thought because I know that
(19:33):
you know from experience And just fromseeing what's out there, people want
recipes that they can cook regularly.
It's not that you can't cook ramenregularly, but it is a bit of a project.
You need a sort of solid two daysto put together a bowl from scratch.
And, you know, I did a talk at abookshop in Bath where somebody was
like, Well, what can I, what recipe doyou recommend from the book where, you
(19:56):
know, that I can make, like, every day?
And I was like, uh, Ha ha ha.
I was like, you can't, well, whatI've been telling people now is, um,
all of the elements have differentuses outside of a bowl of ramen, like
the chashu recipes in particular.
You could have those on a bowl of ricewith some greens and it'd be a great meal.
The oils are great for roastingvegetables, or dressing salads,
(20:19):
or all kinds of different things,making mayonnaises and dressings.
Uh, and then there are ones that aresort of more stand alone, like there's
a whole chicken ramen recipe where yousort of, you poach the chicken and that
becomes your broth and your toppingsand you just add noodles basically.
Or my favorite, or one of my favorites,which is the Leftover Nando's one, uh,
Leftover Nando's Ramen, which soundsstupid, and it is, but it was surprisingly
(20:42):
good, otherwise I wouldn't have put itin the book, so like, And then that kind
of thing is there to show people, like,You know, anything can be ramen, and
you can, once you know the basics, onceyou have good noodles, and understand
seasoning in particular, anything canbecome ramen, and it doesn't necessarily
have to be a big project, and in fact,the book's being translated into German,
(21:05):
and um, they don't have Nando's inGermany, so they were like, what do we
do, and I said, what we settled on wasjust like, well, basically we can just
tell people, Order any chicken fromyour favorite chicken shop, follow this
process, season it up how you like it, andyou'll have a pretty good bowl of ramen.
That's the truth, I think, so.
Yeah, I mean, if I, I don't know.
(21:26):
Like I said, like, I, I, Iwant people to cook from it.
And I, I, I always want itto not be too, too nerdy.
But unfortunately, that's sortof the nature of the dish.
And I've been describing the book asa, as a one for serious beginners,
like I don't think it's, it's notincredibly nerdy or detailed, not as
(21:47):
much as it could be anyway, but havingsaid that, like, you have to be the
kind of person who really wants to...
Set the time aside to make a proper ball.
Lucy (21:56):
Yeah, for sure.
I'd also just like to give kudos tothe Nando's recipe for shouting out
one of the underrated Nando's menuitems, which is the chicken livers!
I love the Nando's chicken livers!
Yeah, well what I loved about therecipes that you've included for,
yeah, the Nando's leftovers thatyou've, um, that you've mentioned and
also the Full English ramen and the,uh, Wisconsin beer and cheese ramen.
(22:19):
Um, they're just really fun.
Like they're just like, itfeels very like funny to me.
Um, and I found it quite surprising ina book that, you know, as you're saying,
this isn't a book for serious nerds, butit is a book that takes ramen seriously.
And I really liked that, that there wasspace for that element of humor like that.
I kind of really appreciated that.
And they seem like really great recipes.
I'm excited to try them.
Tim (22:40):
Thanks.
I mean, this is sort ofa sticking point as well.
It's because.
There's a, there is this urge with anykind of food, and I think, you know, ramen
as well, which is to sort of be protectiveof some kind of idea of authenticity.
Which is a really tricky one with ramen,because I do respect that, and I, you
know, I will certainly like be unsatisfiedif some kind of ramen doesn't, certainly
(23:08):
if it doesn't follow the rules, i.
e.
like it's made incorrectly, it doesn'thave the right noodles, things like that.
Or if, if people describe it asone certain kind of style and
it doesn't represent that style.
But, all throughout ramen history,and especially now, in Japan, there
are variations that are based onjust one individual chef's sort
(23:30):
of idiosyncrasies and creativity.
I mean, there's a pizza ramen in the book.
And I, I, I know people wouldprobably look at that and they
think, ah, that's not, you know,that you're just being silly.
That's, that's not legit.
And, you know, we had thisat the restaurant too.
We did a curry goat ramen andthere's a French onion ramen
in one of my other books.
And I was just curious becausewhen I make these things, I, I, I,
(23:52):
they're done sort of in the spiritof this sort of creativity that you
get in the ramen world in Japan.
Um, and that is one of thethings that makes it special.
So I just googled it, and it turns outthere is a French onion ramen being served
in Japan, and it's even got a pastry lid.
Incredible.
Yeah, this kind of like silliness,I think it's important, like it's a
(24:16):
serious business ramen, but it alsoallows for a lot of fun and creativity.
I think that's part of, I think part ofthe reason behind that is because it's
always had this, This status of beingnot quite Japanese, you know, for decades
and decades after it was introduced toJapan, it was referred to as Chinese
food, as chuka soba or Chinese soba.
(24:39):
And it still sort of holds on tothat in some, some cases, especially
among like older generations.
And I think that that, um, hasallowed people in Japan to sort
of blow it up a bit and say,well, you know, this is not...
our food, we're not followingstrict traditions here, so we
can have a bit of fun with it.
As long as the rules are followed, anyway.
Lucy (24:59):
Yeah, fun within the rules.
The best kind of fun.
I wanted to talk to you about, uh,Nanban, actually, because I know it's
no longer running, but, um, I don'tknow, it feels like I can't talk to
you about your ramen book withoutasking you about your ramen restaurant.
What did you learn aboutcooking ramen in that setting?
Tim (25:18):
Oh, God.
Um.
What did I learn?
Okay, so If I could sort of reframe thequestion a little bit people are often
asking me are you ever gonna reopenor open another one and The answer is
(25:39):
basically no um, it's just One thingI've learned is about myself, which is
that i'm not really I'm not really cutout to work in a restaurant in the sense
that running a restaurant or working ina restaurant is often about firefighting
and solving problems as they come up.
You never have a day at arestaurant, or almost never, where
(25:59):
everything just goes smoothly.
You're always dealing with brokenequipment or staff not turning
up or, or some little minordisaster one right after the other.
I think that people who work inrestaurants, they kind of thrive uh,
in those kinds of I, I like thingsto be much more under control.
(26:20):
So if I were to ever open another one,I would try to maintain that control
by having it be a much smaller venue,like what you typically find in Japan
and, and having fewer staff so that Ican sort of spend more time with each
(26:40):
one of them, more sort of one on onetime talking to them through the whole.
Process and getting them to understandthe dish from the ground up because
the problem with having a bigger teamis that you've, you've sort of got
one guy off in the corner, choppingonions and you've got one person
on the other side of the kitchen,making the garlic oil or whatever.
And it's hard for them tosee it all come together.
(27:00):
Basically, like we tried to movepeople around the kitchen as much
as we could at Namban, but youstill end up sort of in this.
Sort of old school brigade system almostwhere one person's doing one thing on one
section and one person's doing another.
So that's, that's hard and that's,that's really not how ramen
shops operate in Japan generally.
You have everybody doingeverything in the line.
(27:20):
So you can really, like there's nohead chef in a ramen shop in Japan.
It's just a few people putting a bowltogether basically and then being
involved with every part of that bowl.
So keeping it small, keeping it undercontrol, keeping the menu small as well
so that you have more Focus, I guess,on really getting every element right.
(27:41):
This is what I would doif I were to do it again.
And then, sort of, some lifestyle choices.
That would be different.
For one thing, I would love, and Idon't know if this is possible with
London Rent, but I would love to beable to like, sell the broth until it
runs out, and then close up at 3pm.
You know, like, So I can have alife as well, and pick up my kids
(28:01):
from school and stuff like that.
Charge a lot for the ramen.
I would love to be able to charge 20pounds, 25 pounds for a bowl of ramen so
that then you can pay the staff more sothat you can buy the better ingredients.
You know, there's this real expectationin the UK and in Japan and in Japan, it's
much more fair, I think, but like peoplewant ramen to be cheap, but I think that
(28:23):
that's part of the appeal of the dish.
But.
It's expensive, making ramen is like,it's an expensive process, like, the
noodles that we get are, you know, 75pa portion sometimes, the broth itself
can cost a pound with the amount ofbones that go into it, you've got the
toppings and everything, and then ofcourse the staff at the rent, and it's,
it's, it's not cheap, and nowadays, sortof the going rate for ramen in London is
(28:44):
probably around 15 pounds, which I thinkis fair, absolutely fair, but I think
it actually probably should be more.
Just to make a more sustainablebusiness, basically.
So, yeah.
Sorry, I don't know if thatanswers your question, but, um...
Lucy (29:00):
No, I think it does answer your question.
I think I actually, I actuallymisphrased the question slightly,
which was, what have you learnedfrom cooking ramen in that setting,
not what have you learned about it,which I think is slightly different.
So I think you did actually answerthe question that I meant to ask.
Right.
So that's great.
We both got there.
Um, but yeah, that's really in, that'sso interesting because I think something
that really, yeah, something that reallycame to me when I was reading the book
(29:22):
was that, um, it seems unbelievablethat a bowl of ramen could cost as
like less than 20 pounds when youconsider the work that goes into it.
So yeah, I can, I completely understandwhere you're coming from there.
Um, and also I, I feel like.
Ramen shops aren't really athing that we have here, right?
It's, they're kind of an outlier,like, I think, I mean, I'm, I
(29:43):
don't know if there's any...
kind of exceptions to that rule that you,you know, and you want to tell us about.
But yeah, it's not really a conceptthat a lot of people are familiar with.
Tim (29:55):
You're right.
We have ramen restaurants.
You know, these places can be quitededicated and specialized to some
degree, but they all, includingus, they all serve other dishes,
small plates, stuff like that.
Which of course, isn't likeunheard of in Japan either.
You get, you know, all kinds ofstandard side dishes like rice or.
Karaage, stuff like that, gyoza, um,and you even have like ramen izakaya in
(30:18):
Japan that have fuller menus as well.
But I think there's less of anemphasis generally in the UK on,
on specializing, uh, and that's,that's in any genre of cooking.
You know, we, we don't reallyhave dedicated yakitori places.
We have very few sort ofdedicated okonomiyaki places.
Even sushi, I mean, people now...
(30:40):
I think have more respect for sushiand the whole omakase experience, where
you get sushi and you get it in a waythat is, the chef basically dictates.
But, yeah, beyond that, people, Imean, we, it's funny, we, we had
people walk out of the restaurantbecause we didn't serve sushi.
Or because we didn't serve prawn tempura.
(31:00):
Like these sort of dishes thatpeople expect from Japanese food,
and they think, oh, you're a Japaneserestaurant, you must serve it.
Which, I don't know where thatcomes from, um, it's, it's
very, very different from Japan.
And even to some extent from America,where, you know, you go to a restaurant
for that one thing that they do.
I think part of it is thatpeople go out here more, more to
(31:24):
socialize than anything, ratherthan to sit down and eat the food.
But I don't know, that'soversimplifying it, because obviously...
Well, ramen is different.
Ramen is not a social food in Japan.
You order your food, you usually go alone.
If you go with a friend,you don't talk to them.
You sit down, you slurp, and you leave.
Lucy (31:42):
No, I think, I really think you're onto something here, because I think when
you, um, it made me think about this,actually, when you, when you introduced
the full English ramen, and you kindof justify writing this recipe because
you make a comparison between the ideaof going to a cafe and having a full
English and having ramen in a ramen shop.
And I think, I think there's actually likea real, there is a real parallel there.
(32:02):
Like you talk about it beingquite a working class food,
which I think is really accurate.
And also like, I think people wouldoften, I guess there is some element
of socializing in a cafe and it is a.
You know, third space or whatever youwant to call it, but there is also like
an element that you're going there tofuel up and like, you might enjoy how it
tastes, but it feels quite like, um, Idon't know what the word is, but you're
(32:23):
not going there for kind of like a, anelevated, I hate that word, but like
a kind of rarefied dining experience.
It's very like you're there to like fuel.
So I guess it is comparable.
Tim (32:34):
Get the protein and get the fat and get the carbs in.
And get out.
And get out.
I mean, a cab is probably afriendlier place to linger
than most ramen shops, but.
And that's an important point, too, is,is these, because there's a, there's a
contingent in, in the ramen scene thatsort of wants to elevate, it wants to
(32:54):
make everything a little bit more refined.
And I have respect for that.
But, like in the case of afull English, that doesn't
necessarily make the dish better.
Like, sometimes the bestramen is the sloppiest, most,
like, thrown together thing.
Like, I, I, I mentioned Ramen Jido in thebook, which, which does have, of course,
(33:15):
a, a certain process that goes into it,and a, a, a certain amount of thought.
But it is also, like, Ramen Jido isone of the most chaotic, dirty...
Ramen shops I've ever seen, and I'm notthe only one who thinks this, like, you go
in there, and I'll never forget this, thechef, the master, he's in there dipping
his hands into boiling noodle water tocheck if the noodles are done, with his
(33:37):
fingertips, and he's got a bandaid onone of them, and it's like, and there's
another guy stirring the broth with abig wooden beam, it looks like a fence
post, and like, there's grease all overthe walls, And you just go in there and
you think, man, this is not, but, butthen it comes down to taste and it's
about like, it's about experience and,and I guess a certain kind of technique.
(33:59):
It's, it's not about like dialingin individual elements and making
sure that everything is just right.
It's about sort of adjustingon the fly and, and it's
about filling you up cheaply.
It's, and that to me is as important,if not a more important sort
of aspect or part of, of ramenculture is this sort of like.
You know, here's something that ismade to a certain level of care,
(34:26):
but also just meant to sort of likeput meat on your bones and fill
you up cheaply without being at allpretentious or precise, basically.
And I really do think that that issort of an important part of ramen
culture I want people to understand.
Because the original ramen, at leastif you read sort of the history
(34:47):
books on it, uh, like Slurp byBarrett Kushner is my favorite.
He describes one of the original sort ofproto ramen, Champon, as a dish of scraps.
Like, literally like, and itstill is in a lot of ways.
It's bones, and like, Not primecuts of pork and wheat flour.
Like it's a cheap, simple, humbledish made from nothing special.
(35:11):
I think if you can get that, ifyou can, if you can start with
not anything special ingredientsthat make a great bowl of ramen.
Then, you're a pro.
You've got all my respect, basically.
If you start with great ingredientsand make a great bowl of ramen,
it's like, eh, who cares?
Anybody can do it.
Lucy (35:29):
Something from nothing.
That's what we want.
I wanted to ask you about, um, kindof that idea of being an expert.
Um, because it's something I sort of thinkabout a lot when it comes to, I guess,
the voices we hear in the food world.
And...
Japanese food, I feel like in thiscountry, there are obviously people
who have been writing about it for along time, but there isn't kind of a,
(35:52):
a big breadth and wealth of voices,it's kind of a few people, and I
wonder how you feel about being seenas this expert voice, particularly
as somebody who's not Japanese.
Tim (36:02):
Yeah, I don't know.
Um, I, um, for onething, it's all relative.
And if you're the guy in the roomwho knows the most about something,
or more than anybody else, rather,They're going to call you the expert,
whether or not you feel that yourself.
And they're going to belooking to you for answers.
And I accept that.
(36:24):
Like, if I, if people come to meand they say, we would like to know
about Japanese food to some degree,whether it's in the form of a book
or doing the radio or whatever,I'll say, okay, here's what I know.
Here's my opinions on it.
Here's what I've learned.
But, you're absolutely right that Ican't be the only one and I can't be,
(36:45):
I can't be the first stop, basically.
Um, I think you've got to find theright person for the right job.
So, I'll give you an examplewhere I didn't do that.
Or I did not follow that rule.
That's my vegan book.
That's the book I probablyshouldn't have written.
I did my best.
They asked me, can you do a vegan book?
And I said, okay, I knowsome things about that.
(37:06):
But really, that's a wholeother tradition in Japan.
And I mentioned it in the book,there's shojin yori, which is this
Buddhist vegetarian tradition.
Um, and I said, I basically say in thebook, like, I don't know enough about
this to write about it, so here's abunch of other dishes I can write about.
Whereas, in retrospect, I probablyshould have passed on that one and
said, I'm not your expert here.
(37:26):
I can do ramen.
I can do easy Japanese home cooking.
I can do izakaya food.
But there's somebody else out there who isgoing to be able to explain this better.
So I guess that's sort of thething is you've got to find the
right expert for the right topic.
And when it comes to Japanese food and I,you know, any, any kind of food really,
there is so much within that food.
(37:49):
It's not just one thing.
There are individual dishes.
There are sub genres.
Um, there's historical recipes.
There's sort of modern fine dining.
There's all these different elementsto all these different foods.
And so it's about sort of, Ithink, uh, knowing, figuring out
what your wheelhouse is and thenstaying within that to some degree.
(38:13):
Then it's a two way street.
It's like, uh, you know, people have to,when they're looking for expertise, they
have to find the right person just asmuch as people who are in that position
have to say yes or no, basically.
And one thing I would, I would like to seemore of are, and this is again a situation
(38:33):
where it's sort of a two way street.
I'd like to see more interest inregional Japanese food, and then finding
the right person to talk about that.
I did a book on Tokyo aswell, Tokyo local foods.
And then the topic came upat the publisher, it's like,
okay, well, what about Kyoto?
(38:54):
What about Osaka?
What about Okinawa?
All these other kind of regions.
Like, yeah, absolutely,somebody should do these books.
But not me.
And also, the demand has to be there.
That's a commercial consideration.
But like, you know, woulda book on Kyoto food sell?
I don't know.
But if it does, thenabsolutely it should be done.
(39:16):
And it should be somebody who reallyknows that cuisine well to do it.
Yeah,
Lucy (39:20):
I think that's a really good point, and this is all very much tied
in with the commercial aspect of it.
Kind of, when you frame it in that way,it feels strange that the people who have
the most power in which voices are heardin food are the people who are trying
to sell something, which obviously,like, in the society we live in.
Makes a lot of sense, like, it's the waythat we live, but it's also, like, quite,
it's quite fucked up, and, yeah, and, youknow, I appreciate you sharing that about
(39:45):
the, the vegan book, I think that's reallyinteresting to have had that reflection
that actually, you know, outside of themoment that you agreed to do it, um,
maybe somebody else could have writtenit, but it's also, I respect that it's
really hard to say no to those things.
Tim (39:58):
Well, that's it, I mean, this is now my livelihood, this is my career.
And so, like any sort of, basically,freelancer, it's hard to turn down work.
Although, now, luckily, some of thebooks are paying royalties, so I have
a little bit more financial freedomto say no to things, basically.
And we've had conversations with thepublisher, and we're, to be honest,
(40:21):
we're a little bit stuck right now.
Because, you know, finding Venn diagramwhere it's something that they want.
Something that readers want and somethingthat I want and also can do That's
becoming harder and harder to pin down.
So You know, I could write aboutJapanese food forever, because
that's the nature of the subject.
(40:41):
It just, it goes on forever, butit would require more research,
sort of, on the ground in Japan.
I'm limited by living here.
Lucy (40:50):
We all are limited by living here.
Tim (40:52):
Tell me about it.
So, it's, it's, yeah, it's a tricky one.
And, you know, I'm atthe point now where we...
What I would love to do is sort of dowhat Oto Lengi has started doing with
these co authored books And I don't knowexactly what sort of form that would
take if it would ever take form But likebecause I love writing the books and I
love the sort of learning and researchthat goes into them but It'd be great
(41:17):
to sort of collaborate with people onspecialist subjects who who who know
more than I do basically and get them Gettheir perspective in there Their voices.
Sometimes I think, to be completelyhonest, it's like, well, I've
done the writing, and I'veenjoyed it, and I still enjoy it.
But at this point, it's almost like, well,I want to be the commissioning editor now.
(41:38):
I want to start finding other people whoI think are interesting and could write
interesting things about Japanese food.
And putting them out there, becauseI want to see their books, you know?
I don't have that power other thanrecommending people, I suppose.
Lucy (41:50):
This is, I love this.
I mean, you could do this, Tim.
I believe that, you know, an independentpublishing house that publishes.
But was it, yeah, I mean, to come backto what you said about the Ottolenghi
model, I think that's such a good point.
Um, and it is such, I think that'ssuch an interesting and valuable
use of a platform that he has.
To really bring people in, and I thinkit was something that he maybe didn't
(42:12):
always do and has definitely mademore effort to, um, give people the
credit they deserve in, in this way.
And I think that's, that would be a reallyinteresting avenue for you to go down,
um, and I personally would love to see it.
Tim (42:25):
Tell my publisher.
I don't know.
Lucy (42:29):
I'll tag them in there.
It is so difficult because there are somany people with fantastic ideas and,
but yeah, it's about the market at theend of the day and, and that's, the
trouble is that people buy books fromthings they know about already, I guess.
Tim (42:45):
There are an awful lot of Japanese cookbooks that are basically
kind of the same book, which areclassic, simple home cooking books.
I honestly, I love those kinds of books.
I really do.
And I think the thing is you can,um, you can have both, you can have
the sort of simple Easy recipes,accessible recipes, that are also
sort of more specific to differentregions or subcultures of, of Japan.
(43:10):
I'm working on a book aboutHokkaido food right now, which is
sort of a lifelong dream project.
And there's a lot of stuff that I, Ican't really put in the book because
it's, it's sort of too difficulteven for me, in terms of technique or
sourcing ingredients in particular.
But there's also plenty ofstuff that is super simple.
And delicious, and that uses ingredientsthat are really widely available.
(43:34):
I almost think of it as, you coulddo it almost like a Trojan horse.
You can write a book that says on thecover, like, easy Japanese comfort food
or whatever, and have the book be likehalf that, and then have that other
half be like, a bunch of weird shit.
Not weird shit, but you know what I mean,like, here's a bunch of stuff maybe people
(43:54):
don't know about, and, and, get them to,uh, expand their Japanese food horizons.
Almost in a sneaky way.
Lucy (44:04):
I mean I think there's something in that.
I just interviewed Clarissa Weiwho has a book out called Made in
Taiwan and um, she basically waslike, none of these recipes are easy.
Like, you need to understand this isnot like an everyday cookbook that
people are going to use every night.
This is a process of documentation.
Like, this is...
I mean, obviously, politically, Taiwanis in a very different position to Japan,
(44:26):
and that's kind of some of the motivationfor writing the book, was that if we
don't write these recipes down now andspeak to these people about what they
cook, we might never have the chanceagain, which is obviously a, there's a
lot more impetus there, but, you know,I, It's, it made me really think about
the idea of what a recipe means becauseI think I've been guilty in the past
of writing off the recipe book as kindof quite a cosy, um, you know, thing.
(44:49):
And I love recipe books, I have many, butI think I've really come to understand
its power as like a political tool.
Yeah.
So yeah, there you go.
Tim (44:58):
That is, uh.
Interesting thing you're bringingup, actually, because part of the
challenge of writing the book aboutHokkaido is addressing Ainu food.
Ainu are this indigenous groupin Hokkaido and also live in
the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin.
And they were basically, their culture wasalmost wiped out by the Japanese imperial
(45:19):
government in the late 19th century.
But now it's having this cultural revival.
And even talking about that story...
As an outsider to the culture, feels likealmost something I don't want to touch.
It has to be talked about, butlike, it doesn't feel like it's my
(45:40):
place to criticize or politicize.
So this is something I'm like,just being, trying to be very
mindful of at the moment.
Um, while also realizing thatthis is a, uh, this will be an
introduction to this food culturethat a lot of people don't know about.
So like.
It is tricky, and I think that what I'mtrying to do, like what I've sort of,
(46:03):
uh, Uh, my strategy that I've landedon is, uh, is not be overtly political,
Not sort of give my two cents in thebook too much, But just in talking about
it, you are sort of making a statement.
Mm.
Whether or not people sort of receivethat statement or not I guess is
up to the reader, And how stronglyI sort of convey it, but like, The
(46:27):
story has to be told, I suppose.
And that in itself is kind of political.
This is the thing.
My, my job is really like, I considermyself sort of a professional enthusiast.
My job is to sort of like say,Hey, look at all this great stuff.
Look at, look at whatwe can learn from Japan.
Cause it's, it's brought me alot of joy and understanding
not to say, Ooh, no, no, no.
(46:49):
Bad things here, like, you know, that,that feels hypocritical in a way, and,
and just not my place, but on the otherhand, like, you can't avoid it sometimes,
so, it's tricky, it's really tricky.
The sort of main tension in the book,I guess, is, and I think this is a
(47:15):
tension in ramen, making ramen generally.
Is the sort of the balance betweendoing something properly and sort
of by the books and nailing thebasics and also making your own.
Because I think that this isnot just about ramen, this is
(47:36):
about Japanese food generally.
Because I think that every typeof Japanese food has that, has
both those things within it.
And I've talked in the bookand elsewhere about how...
Noodle cultures like udon and soba don'tsee as many regional variations and as
many sort of creative takes on it inJapan But that's less and less true.
(47:57):
And and I think that nowadays whenI go to Japan I go to udon shops or
soba shops I'm amazed at actuallywhat chefs are doing with it.
I had an udon moment in Shinjuku Severalyears ago where they made a kind of a
carbonara udon But I don't think theyinvented or anything like that, but it
was basically like hot udon Served witha little bit of So you top with butter,
(48:19):
cheese, and a slab of tempura bacon.
And I was just like, I didn'tknow udon could be this.
And, and, but they'd also, obviouslythey knew what they were doing in
terms of making the noodles and,and the, the, the fundamentals.
And I think that, you know.
When people talk about what you canor can't do with food, especially if
it's not your culture's food, there'snot that many limits in terms of like,
(48:43):
if you want to go crazy with toppingsor, or creative takes on something.
You know, I already mentioned the pizzaramen, which exists in Japan, or, or curry
ramen, or all these different things.
French onion ramen, whatever.
But if you haven't sort of respectedthe basics and got the, the fundamental
understanding right, then you can't do it.
(49:05):
I'm not gonna say can't, but like,And not just because it's sort of
disrespectful, but also because it justwon't be good, like you have to sort of...
And also you gotta, you gotta eat.
You gotta eat as much ramen asyou can to sort of understand it.
You really do.
It's not just about the makingand understanding the process.
It's about understanding thesort of sensory impact, I guess.
(49:28):
And how the noodlesfeel when you chew them.
And how the hot lard on topworks, and all this stuff.
It really is like...
When you have a bowl oframen in it, it doesn't work.
Or when it does, rather.
That is one of the hardest things todescribe because it's about so many
different things sort of coming together.
(49:49):
And understanding, I guess, thefundamentals will help you understand
what makes that alchemy happen, I guess.
That's what I want to say.
Yeah, it's a very fun dishto play around with, but...
You know, do your homework, . That's all.
Lucy (50:07):
Lecker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy.
Dear Love, thanks tomy guest, Tim Anderson.
Rama Forever is out now publishedby Hardy Grant as part of
this monthly LE Book Club.
I'll be writing about the book overon the Le Substack and Patreon.
Have you been cooking from it too?
(50:28):
Come and chat about your favorite risk.
Or tag me on Instagram anydishes you've made from it.
I'd love to see them.
And before I go, I'd like to remindyou that you can also sign up as a paid
subscriber to support Lekka on ApplePodcasts, Patreon, Substack as well.
Links will be in the show notes.
There's a series that's runningat the moment, very slowly, thank
(50:49):
you for your patience, about foodpackaging called Out of the Box.
So subscribe to get full access to that.
And to any paid subscribers whoare listening here, anyone who's.
Subscribe recently.
Thank you so much foryour continued support.
It's much appreciated music in theepisode is by blue dot sessions.
Thanks very much for listening.
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