NEW: CrimeCon Denver 2025 Report

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
My name is Kristin Dilly.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.

Speaker 4 (00:40):
Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm Bill Thomas, and we are.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
Back from crime Come Denver.

Speaker 5 (00:49):
It was a heck of a time and we are
happy to announce there were no delayed flights, no food poisoning,
no lost banners, and nothing else we'd or remotely strange happened.
So we're going to call that a win right off
the bat.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, it went great. It was fantastic. I don't think
anything went wrong.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
It was.

Speaker 5 (01:11):
It was definitely in a place that I had never
been to before.

Speaker 4 (01:14):
And Yeah, I ended up sitting next.

Speaker 5 (01:16):
To a lovely woman on the plane who was also
going to crime Con and it was very nice to
have a conversation with her, and so we talked for
like the whole three hour flight to Denver. But as
the plane is starting to dip lower and lower, we're like,
let's look out the window, and we're both expecting to
see mountains, because I think both of us thought that Denver.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
Was in the Rockies, and we're looking.

Speaker 5 (01:36):
Like, did the pilot put it into the GPS throng?
This looks like Kansas. It does not look like Denver.
And the whole time we're like descending toward the airport,
I'm like, where's the mountains? I thought Denver was in
the mountains. Apparently, no, Denver is not in the mountains.
And I just didn't know that, but I think, in
my defense, not a lot of other people did either.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Was surprise too. I've only been to Colorado one other time,
and now that I think about it was a long
time ago. I think we must have been in Boulder,
because there were mountains Denver on the other hand, it's
flat as near as I can tell. I could do
some more research on this if it's important. I think
we're looking at a plateau here because they talk about

(02:20):
the mile High city, but it is flat and it
looks like the prairie. And that area out near the
airport where we were, where our hotel was, and crime Con,
which is at an adjoining hotel, it was just weird.
There was a tremendous as far as the eye can see,

(02:41):
kind of grassland, prairie, very flat. There's a lot of
growth going on. They're building and building new condos and
new houses and new warehouses. Everything's really spread out. It
was exceptionally dry and hot from my point of view.
Great time. It's funny. Even the hotel refers to the Rockies,

(03:05):
and I couldn't see the Rocky Mountains to save my life.

Speaker 4 (03:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:09):
All of the branding that they did for crime Con
and most of the times when you see Denver, they
set it with the mountain backdrop.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yea.

Speaker 5 (03:18):
Even the baseball team is called the Rockies, and so
I was like, where are the mountains?

Speaker 2 (03:22):
No, there are no mountains, not near Denver.

Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:26):
I was really hoping that I could go and do
a little hiking, but.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
No, there are no mountains nearby.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
I'm interested in. I'm walking across the prairie.

Speaker 5 (03:36):
So that, yeah, that just goes to show that I
should have paid better attention in geography class. And I
did have a friend roast me on that pretty severely
on Facebook, and I was like, I am an English teacher,
not a geography teacher, and I'm sorry. When every bit
of branding I've ever seen for Denver talks about the Rockies,
I assume it's in the mountains.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yep. I felt the same way, and now I'm realizing
that something years ago when I was there for a
big professional meeting there were mountains. We must have been
in Boulder, because we sure as heck we're not in Denver.
It's flat.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
And then you've got the Gaylord Rockies just stretched sprawled
across this big prairie when we started driving up to it,
so I shared a taxi. It's my new crime con bestie.
Shout out to Jenny Claire. We shared a taxi coming over.

Speaker 5 (04:25):
To the Gaylord, and I looked out the window and
I had just finished reading The Shining from Stephen King,
and I was like, this is a freaking Overlook Hotel.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
It looks like it and it's cimsy, built up on
a little bit of a hill. I think they brought
some dirt in and made a little hill. It's pretty spectacular.
And the hotel was beautiful and brand new. It can't
be more than a few years old. It was absolutely
gorgeous and the people were great. Turnout for crime com

(04:54):
was spectacular. They had I think the figure I've heard
of six thousand and six hundred this year continues to grow.
I asked Kevin balf who was the founder of crime Con,
how they were looking for numbers, and he said, it's spectacular.
We continue to grow at about ten percent a year.
So the last time around was six thousand, so I'm
hearing a number between six and seven thousand and sixty

(05:15):
six hundred is the number that I heard. And boy,
still having a great time. The fans were fired up.
They were very enthusiastic. The crowds were large and still
overwhelmingly women. I would even push our percentage job. I

(05:35):
bet that was eighty percent women.

Speaker 5 (05:37):
It had to be, but there were definitely more men
than I have noticed before.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Oh that's interesting.

Speaker 5 (05:44):
Yeah, because I was able to get out and walk
around a little bit when I wasn't in the booth,
like I was walking a friend of mine who joined
me to a panel, and actually I noticed there were
two guys in front of me. They were wearing matching
T shirts and on the back it said he's the fan.
I'm just here to carry her bags and drink beer.

Speaker 4 (06:03):
And I was like, you know what.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
It was perfect, You've defined your role as there, there
it is. We had a lot of great interactions. I
keep wanting to call our space podcastro because that's what
it started out as. Now they call it Creator's Row
because obviously not everybody's a podcaster. We had some fantastic
interactions with fans, met a lot of new people, said

(06:28):
hello to a lot of people that we know. The
atmosphere I thought was super positive. People were having a
really good time. They were spending a freaking fortune at
the Adjoining bookstore, which also had all the merch from
Crime Con. They've got hats and T shirts and sweatshirts,
and it just went on and on for days, and

(06:50):
people were loading up like armloads of merchandise and running
up to the registers. They make a fortune with this stuff.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
We always get in a day early Bill and I do.

Speaker 5 (07:02):
And I got in earlier than Bill on this occasion,
and so I went right to the Gaylord, dropped off
my stuff, and then went to start putting our births together.
And I was walking around with Lance from the absolutely
fantastic Missing podcast Lance, and I noticed a group of
people who should not have been in the bookstore and

(07:24):
merch area in the bookstore and merch area, like basically shopping,
filling their arms with merchandise, and they're like, where's the
cash register?

Speaker 4 (07:35):
No, it wasn't open. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (07:37):
I went to go tell an event person, Hey, there
are people shopping in here who absolutely should not be
in here. Yet it's creators and it's creators and exhibitors
only on Thursday. But one of the things that the
person who was asking for the registers was holding was
like a pale rose slash lavender T shirt for crime Con.

Speaker 4 (07:57):
It was a design and it had a tarot card
styled on the front.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Oh yeah, an.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
Investigator or something like that.

Speaker 5 (08:04):
And I remember telling Lance, I said, I got to
get one of those shirts.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Those are horrific.

Speaker 5 (08:09):
Yeah, And I figured, if they know it's going to
be popular, they must have plenty of them.

Speaker 4 (08:14):
They did not. They sold out of that shirt on Friday.

Speaker 5 (08:18):
I never got to get it, and I am salty
as hell about it because I wanted that shirt.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
It was a really bad, cool and kind of unusual design.
They had tons of merchandise courts. They've got them crime
con logo, and they've always got things like basically a
detective merch like that. I didn't realize Thursday is a
setup day and the show opens Friday at noon. Not mistaken. Now,

(08:46):
if you're local, that is in Colorado or whatever, I
suppose you could come in early Friday morning and set
up your booth. There are dozens and dozens of rows
and rows of all the people on Creators Row, and
you go to your place. And then, like when we
met Thursday, you're already setting up the booth, and we
saw lots of our fellow podcasters and people from the

(09:09):
true crime space all setting up. I didn't realize people
they were so excited about spending hundreds of dollars on
merchandise that they were prepared to do so even before
the show had opened.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
Yeah. No, it eventually, Lance and I went to get somebody.

Speaker 5 (09:25):
We were like, you're going to get these people out
of here that they're trying, so there's nobody available to
help them because nothing's open.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
I actually might suggest a crime Con that they put
one or two people on the registers if they were
up and runt, because they're leaving money on the table
if people are willing to spend hundreds of dollars already
even before the show opens.

Speaker 5 (09:45):
Here, if you're going to take a suggestion to crime Con,
suggests that they have on Thursday, that they allow creators
to come through and do their shopping. Yeah, because I
missed the T shirt that I definitely would have spend
money on. Don't normally because I have enough crime kind gear,
but I definitely would have bought that one, and there
wasn't anything else that I wanted beyond that. So I

(10:06):
would say, if you're going to take a suggestion to Kevin,
tell him you got to have a time on Thursday
during setup or Friday morning before the doors open when
the creators and exhibitors can go through and buy their
merch because if we wanted before everyone else can get
to it.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
That Tarot card shirt, by the way, was I feel
like I have enough T shirts and sweatshirts and all
that kind of stuff, so I don't usually buy much
of that. But that shirt I thought was really cool.
I think it said the investigator on it.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah. Yeah, I really wanted it like a lot.

Speaker 5 (10:36):
I'm gonna have to see if maybe they will keep
it in stock online or something like that, because I
really wanted it.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
I was looking at crime con merchandise online for whatever
reason morning.

Speaker 4 (10:49):
Says the guy who said he doesn't want T shirts.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
I know, but they did have some cool stuff. I
will say that.

Speaker 5 (10:55):
And it is funny looking at the bookstore because it
is very rare that there is anything new at the
bookstore that it could surprise me because I read this
stuff so much. And also, we are in a very
lucky position that a lot of publicists from publishing companies,
including some pretty well known ones, will reach out to
us and say, hey, we have a book that's coming

(11:17):
out to three months from now. Would you like an
advanced reader copy and would you like to do an
initial interview.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
So we're lucky enough.

Speaker 5 (11:24):
For example, we're talking to Gilbert King from Bone Valley
next week and his book does not come out for
another month. So I don't normally find anything that I
really need or want in the bookstore, but I did
happen to find Ann Burgess in Stephen Constantine's new book,
which is not out yet on the shelves, at least
not at my local Barnes and Noble.

Speaker 4 (11:44):
So I was very happy to grab that.

Speaker 5 (11:47):
And I'm happy to spend a little bit of money
Crime cons Way because I was able to get it
there before anywhere else.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
And Burgess and Stephen Constantine were both there, and we're
extremely well received because of course, Anne Burgess is a
legendary researcher. There's a character that's clearly based on her
that appeared in the television series of a couple of
years ago, Mindhunter, which is my favorite show that year,

(12:14):
and I'm still unhappy they haven't brought it back for
another season because it was absolutely fascinating to go behind
the scenes of the original group of profilers and researchers
that put together much of the research that was done,
in some cases for the first time into serial killers
and why they do the things that they do. I

(12:37):
ran into a number of people who were super excited
to meet Anne Burgess, who's absolutely lovely.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
How old is that now, only probably seventies.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
No, I think she's I think she's even a little
older than that. I think she's eighty.

Speaker 5 (12:53):
She is amazing, though, and I would say that probably
one of the best moments that came from Crime Con
last year Nashville was getting her and John Douglas both
to autograph my copy of the Crime Classification Manual, which
they co wrote together.

Speaker 4 (13:08):
Yes, I'm a nerd.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
It only shows just a little Chris.

Speaker 5 (13:12):
It's so funny, but Bill, I think sometimes my esteem
podcast partner doesn't realize exactly how much of a nerd
I truly am.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Oh I think I figured it out.

Speaker 5 (13:21):
He walked in on me talking to Julia Crowley of
the consult and she is a retired FBI agent. I
was asking her about running the Yellow Brick Red and
doing Hogan Sally at the FBI Academy. And I know
that I was like a kid in a candy store. Oh,
you were just wanting to hear all her story.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Taking out and she became a profiler as well. So
I was joking that she's going to be my new
best friend.

Speaker 4 (13:48):
She's going to be my new best friend too, because
she's awesome.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
She really is fantastic. So hopefully we'll have Julia Cowley
on our podcast at some point, and then she has
a four person podcas and if I'm not mistaken, the consult.
Her podcast features four people, all of whom I believe
are former FBI profilers.

Speaker 5 (14:08):
So she said it's run just like they would if
they were doing a consult on a case, which I love.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
I think that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
They're on my list for podcasts I want to check out.
As it turns out, Julia only lives about an hour
away from me, up in Massachusetts, and I offered to
take her to lunch and she said yes, So I'm
going to try to drive up there at some point
and I'll totally geek out. You were asking all about
the Yellow Brick Road at Quantico.

Speaker 5 (14:38):
Oh, if I could actually go and run the yellow
Brick Road, And honestly, this is my entreaty to anyone
currently listening who has access to the Yellow Brick Road or.

Speaker 4 (14:46):
The FBI Academy. Please.

Speaker 5 (14:49):
My lifelong dream at this point is to run the
Yellow Brick Road.

Speaker 4 (14:53):
It is six point two miles.

Speaker 5 (14:54):
It's a big old obstacle course, and I want to
do it so bad ever since I saw Jody doing
it in Silence of the Lambs. That is my goal
is to run the Yellow Rick Road. Anybody out there
has access to the FBI Academy who can get me there,
Please let me know. I am desperate to run it.
I know that I can. I can do six point
two miles.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Okay, once we connect with our new best friend Julia,
perhaps she can help in that regard.

Speaker 5 (15:21):
That would be amazing, That would be amazing. You did
get to see a couple of panels while you were there.
Why don't you tell us a little bit about what
you saw and what really jumped out of you.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Sure? We were so slammed with saying hi to folks
on Creator's row. At our mind Over Murder booth, we
have postcards with information about our podcast, the Colonial Parkway Murders,
and then we had done a postcard as well with
information on our identified suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior from
the Colonial Parkway murders. We actually took publicly available information

(15:55):
from the Virginia State Police and put it into a
nice looking template courtesy of Pamela Arnwahem, my partner. So
we gave a lot of that material out. Every once
in a while, I was able to sneak away and
I went to two panels in particular that I thought
were worth mentioning. One was David Middleman, the CEO of

(16:15):
Athram's presentation on what's going on with Othram and the
latest on advance forensics. It was incredibly interesting and so impressive.
They're really pushing the cutting edge, solving cases literally in
real time at crime Con. The whole staff they're up
over eighty people now, the whole staff just gets so

(16:39):
excited whenever they're able to announce a solve, which could
be a cold case, it could be a missing person
who has not been identified. They do a lot with
unidentified remains and giving victims or other people who've passed
away and whose bodies have been found their names back.
It's so exciting. So while I I was checking out

(17:01):
their booth, they were announcing new salves in real time,
so it was really exciting. David's presentation is fantastic. He's
able to explain all the complicated DNA and forensic work
they're doing in a way that most of us I
think can understand, and then he's very humble and he
doesn't come across I don't think you can't have succeeded

(17:24):
at that level without being incredibly intelligent and thoughtful and
analytical and determined. He comes across as very down to
earth in his presentation. He's up there in his jeans
and T shirt. My favorite part of the panel was
when he went to questions. Questions were really good and

(17:45):
very thoughtful. Carla Walker, who was one of the victims
who has identified a couple of years ago at a
Texas case that had been dragging on for forty five years,
her brother Jim got up and spoke about how this
case would have never been so his sister's murder would
have remained a mystery forever had it not been for Athram.

(18:05):
And then a few minutes later, Stacy Chapin got up,
and she's Ethan Chapin's mother from the Idaho four case,
and she was absolutely lovely. It was still difficult for
her to speak publicly about Ethan. She struggles, the emotion
is just still so close to the surface. But she
was absolutely lovely and she again said, Oh. She had

(18:28):
met Kristin Middleman at crime con two years ago, and
Kristen committed to her they would do their absolute best
to help solve the Idaho four case. And wouldn't you know,
they sure did. There was a separate discussion at crime Con.
Unfortunately I got tied up with other booth stuff and
I wasn't able to get to it, but I understand
it was amazing that was Kristin Middleman and Stacy Chapin

(18:53):
together talking about how they met and how Kristin made
this commitment to Stacy and her family and then was
able to deliver, and apparently it was amazing as well.
If I have a regret, it's just that you can't
be in two places at one time.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, exactly. I would say.

Speaker 5 (19:09):
Really, the only I guess fault that you can find
with crime Con is just the fact that they have
so many amazing panels going all at the same time
that you absolutely to make really hard choices, And it's
definitely something that you have to weigh and measure. What
are you going to listen to, what do you think
you can listen to over crime HQ for example, and
what do you want to see in person? And there's

(19:30):
definitely a fear of missing out that comes along with that,
and even just for us, like when we're in a
booth giving out information or in my case, I was
trying to sell some merch this time you do end
up missing things. For example, I did not have a
chance to talk to Gilbert King like I wanted to.
I didn't get a chance to meet Kate Winkler Dawson,
who I also wanted to because she's we've had her

(19:51):
on the podcast. I actually really regret the fact that
I wasn't able to meet any of the people that
I wanted this time. I had John Walsh on my list,
didn't meet him.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
The most people that.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
I saw was on our very first day there Thursday,
And this is also a strength of crime Con. I
walked into the lobby at the Gay Lord and I
had literally set foot inside. It wasn't even inside for
ten seconds before I heard people yelling my name, and
it was Dereka and Natalie from Black and Missing right
after that. It's just either wonderful. It's just a slew

(20:23):
of people that you know and love saying hi. And
I would say that for me, the greatest strength of
crime Con. The thing that I love the most about
crime Con weekends is this is where I get to
see my people. These are my people like I don't have.
I'm sure that I have some listeners who are going
to understand this because there are people out there who
are introverts just like I am. You, sir, as an extrovert,

(20:43):
have never met someone that you don't like. But I
am an introvert, and it is hard for me to
find a group of people that I call mine crime
con people, true crime people. They are my people. And
so I have one weekend a year where I get
to be with my people, and that is crime con.
So being able to just make the rounds on Creator Row.
Oh look there's Lands, Let's go say hi, Hey, there's

(21:06):
Shane Waters, There's just Button Core, there's Paul Holes. It's
amazing because you get to see everybody that you love
who holds the same values that you do. And I
find that amazing and very fulfilling, because, as anybody who
works in this space knows, the only people who understand
what it's like to be in the space are the

(21:26):
people who are in the space already. My family does
not understand why I do what I do. My very sweet, supportive,
wonderful life partner Mark, he tries very hard to understand
why I do what I do, but he doesn't get
it either. It is very difficult sometimes to be someone
who loves being in the crime space that most people
find dark and a little creepy. To find your people

(21:48):
and have your people with you, it means a lot
to me. So I love being able to do crime
con for that reason. And to walk into a place
and have so many people just call your name and be.

Speaker 4 (21:58):
Like, hey missed you, so glad to see you. It's wonderful.

Speaker 5 (22:01):
I feel like I have a community, and that's not
something that I think I've ever really had before. It's
a very big deal to me.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
I feel the same way. It's amazing if for anybody's
interested in attending crime con that's into true crime, it's
a phenomenal experience. Yeah, I think this was we figured out.
This is my seventh crime corin in your sixth Yes,
you missed Austin.

Speaker 5 (22:27):
I missed Austin because we were still in lockdown and
I was teaching.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
It's just such a privilege to walk around there. If anything,
it's an embarrassment of riches for anyone that attends crime crime.
There are so many interesting things going on. Oftentimes there
are two and three different panels going on in different
but joining ballrooms, all at the same time, and you
have to decide, okay, which one are we going to
go to and sometimes you and I will divide and conquer,

(22:52):
where one of us will go to a panel while
the other person's at the booth, and vice versa. You
have to make some hard choices about what it is
that's most important to you. Maybe there's somebody that you're
excited about seeing. I'm realizing, even as I'm glancing at
the many people that spoke, I really wanted to hear
Marshall Clark speak, and yeah, didn't get an opportunity to

(23:15):
see her. There were so many impressive people. I did
have a chance to say hello to a lot of folks,
because as you walk from place to place, you run
into all sorts of people.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
Yeah, well hallway, I saw Josh Macawa.

Speaker 5 (23:30):
It's very quickly, it's you know, past people come in
and going. We saw Paul Holes at dinner, for example.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
And I saw Paul in the bar as well. You
had seen kind Natalie from the Black and Missing Foundation,
who were just delightful people.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Then they're wonderful.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
That Saturday night, I guess that was at the Clue Awards.
We were seated with Dereka and Natalie, so that was
really fun and I had a chance to chat with
them and catch up a little bit. There's so many
amazing people in the true crime space, and then you
meet all sorts of new people, and I'm always looking
to connect with the two audiences. There's now this year,

(24:08):
I think it was sixty six hundred true crime fans.
Some of them listen to Mind over Murder, others we'd
like them to check us out and see what we're about.
So there was a lot of that kind of connection
going on, especially on Creator's Row, which I still struggle
and want to call by podcast Row. There's a secondary
audience which is very important, I think to both of us,
which are two to three hundred I would say subject

(24:31):
matter experts, and it's a different lineup every year. These
are folks that are there typically to present, speak on panels,
appear at various activities. There are a lot of people
that can be very beneficial because obviously we have a
goal of moving the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. I
met a lot of people in law enforcement, forensics, investigators,

(24:57):
journalists who want to help bus moved the Colonial Parkway
murders forward. So that's a great interest as well. That's
a smaller group of people, but you want to kind
of work both of those angles. Connecting with the large
group of fans that are there, who were there having
a great time, and we talked about percentage wise, I

(25:18):
think it's eighty percent women. Now. I met a lot
of teams of people that are good friends that are
into true crime. They are now planning their vacations around
crime come which I just made me laugh in a
good way. And then I met a lot of sisters
that were together. They love true crime and they like

(25:38):
to do things together, mother daughter duos. I was seated
at the Clue Awards with an aunt and her grown daughter,
both of whom are big true crime fans. Nice So
there were a lot of really fun pairings of women
that are good friends and are there because they're really

(26:02):
interested in true crime. You're listening to Mind over Murder.
We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.
We're back here at mindover Murder. And then I met
a fair number of couples, gay and straight, and I
would say I don't think the husbands and boyfriends were
being dragged along because they were having a good time too,

(26:25):
and they had a lot of questions, like a lot
of enthusiasm I would say there were far more women
traveling on their own or with their friends. The guys
seem to be having a good time too, which I'm
happy to see everybody. It was really fun. Sometimes the
topics are tough. They can be dark. You're talking about
loss here, you're talking about murdered and missing people. So

(26:47):
the topics can be serious, and sometimes the conversation can
be dark, I guess is the right word. But at
the same time, people are incredibly supportive. They are. Yeah,
I'm thinking back to Stacy Chape and struggling, and I
heard her speak twice over the weekend, once at the
cocktail party for the Clue Awards as well. But the

(27:11):
crowds are so supportive of Yeah, people much like ourselves
who've been through some of these losses. To get that
kind of support from people that are really interested in
true crime and in showing their support for the victims
and survivors of true crime, that was pretty inspiring.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
There were two particular things that I wanted to highlight
that I feel like Crime Con did well and I'd
like to see them do it again. This one I
loved just as an animal lover. They partnered with one
of the shelters in Denver and had a pen full
of puppies available for people too to play with but
also to adopt. And I love the fact that you

(27:53):
could if the subject matter got too dark or whatever,
you could go play with some puppies. I had a
couple of moments where I like, I needed to go
and get some puppy love, and so I went over
to one of the handlers and I said, can I
play with this puppy for a few minutes?

Speaker 4 (28:06):
And they were like, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (28:07):
And what isn't going to make your day better than
a puppy giving you kisses all over your face? So
I love that they did that, and I hope they
do that at the next place that they go to,
which is going.

Speaker 4 (28:16):
To be Vegas.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Those dogs, by the way, were available for adoption, Yes
they were. The puppies were available for adoption, but only
the Colorado residents puppy and say here, take this puppy
to Virginia on your way home. That's obviously not going
to work. The pumpstars were available for adoption for Colorado residents,
of which there were tons and met a lot. I

(28:39):
really loved that.

Speaker 5 (28:40):
The other thing that I thought was great and I
would again like to see crime con do more of
this by encouraging other people to do this. On Creator Rope,
there was a really excellent booth that was run by
a group of therapists who work with survivors of trauma
and survivors of abuse, really just anybody who has's undergone

(29:01):
a trauma of some variety, and they offered a lot
of really excellent resources to connect people to the places
where they needed to be to get the help that
they needed. Like everybody this year, they had some variety
of merch so they had stickers and T shirts and
I actually wish that I had bought one of their
T shirts because it meant a lot to me what

(29:23):
they had put on it. But they had a really
beautiful deep purple T shirt, which is my favorite color,
and it has a silhouette of a woman on it
and she's surrounded by stars and it says, dear survivor,
you are not defined by the abuse you endured.

Speaker 4 (29:37):
You are not alone. We believe you. And that made
me cry.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
And then the person who was running the booth, she
and her partner were just given out hugs left and
right to anybody who needed it, especially anybody who said
I've gone through this. I think that it's really important
for crime con moving forward, and this is something we
want to suggest for panels, for us moving forward, to
talk about what happens when you come out on the
other side of trauma, when the worst has happened to you,

(30:05):
when you've lost someone to violence, or when you yourself
have been the subject of violence or abuse or whatever.
How do you heal because a lot of times we
don't tell that side of the story. We tell, here's
this awful thing that happened, and they caught the person
the end, but you don't get into anything beyond the
messy middle. And there is so much more beyond that,

(30:27):
because once you have undergone a trauma, now you live
with it for the rest of your life, as you
well know, Bill, and so I would encourage crime con
and again, this is something we're going to try to
encourage them to do, to focus give a little bit
more attention to the impacts on victims. I loved that
NCVC did a series of.

Speaker 4 (30:44):
Victims impact statements.

Speaker 5 (30:46):
I thought that was very powerful, and I wish that
you had taken them up on the offer to do
a victim's impact statement.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Okay, So that NCBC, for those of you that are
not familiar, is the National Center for Victims of Crime.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
Yes, and they're wonderful.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
They are wonderful, and our friend Renee Williams is the
CEO of NCVC. That was my second most moving panel.
They actually had asked me if I wanted to participate,
and I said no, I'll explain why. But I told
them I would be there to show my support. Of course,

(31:25):
turns out they didn't need me to show my support
because there were hundreds of other people in the ballroom.

Speaker 4 (31:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
What it was a group of survivors giving victims impact statements. Now,
there was something very interesting about it. When Renee asked
me if I would participate, I had said, my sister
Kathy and her girlfriend of Beckadowski's case is not solved yet.
Of course, as listeners not, it's part of the Colonial

(31:54):
Parkray murders, and we have a partial solve in the
Robin Edwards and David Knobling part of the Colonial Parkway murders.
And then of course that also ties into Teresa Lynn
spaw Howell who was murdered in nineteen eighty nine, also
in Virginia and Hampton together with the Hampton Police Department.
They identified Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, a name that's very

(32:15):
familiar to our listeners, as being linked to those three murders.
The rest of the Colonial Parkway murders are not solved.
So I had said to Renee, I really appreciate the offer.
I'm thinking that since Kathy and Becky's case hasn't been solved,
I'm not sure I'm really the appropriate person to give
a victim's impact statement. She said, come to the panel

(32:35):
and see what you think. So, as it turns out,
a number of the people that spoke, I think five
different survivors spoke, and first of all, they were powerful speech.
And as it turns out, and this is something that
Renee feels strongly about, your case doesn't have to be
solved for you to speak about its impact on you

(32:58):
and your life. I was really inspired by these people.
Some of their cases are solved, some of the cases
are unsolved, and as a matter of fact, in one
or two examples, just based on what I heard and
then chatting with them one on one afterwards, I'm not
sure some of those cases are ever going to be solved.
This afforded those individuals an opportunity to speak publicly about

(33:23):
their loss, and man, it was very moving. There were
a lot of tears, and sometimes the people speaking family members,
they struggled themselves, but it was also cathartic by the
end of it all, and you felt good listening and
supporting these people, but also giving them the opportunity to

(33:45):
tell their stories that they might not have ever been
able to tell. It was beautiful, it was sad, It
was difficult in spots, but it was an incredible experience
to convey to Renee the next time we talked to
her that I would love to do that and at

(34:06):
next year's Crime Con and we'll tell you more about
Crime Con twenty twenty six in a minute. It was
so beautiful and actually having had a chance to sit
through it, it's only an hour long, but man, it
made me determined to want to participate next year because
I thought it was so beautifully done. And then I
did have a chance to talk to a couple of

(34:27):
the family members afterwards, and I think they got a
lot out of it.

Speaker 5 (34:31):
I think that one of the many things that I
have learned through my own journey on the therapy train
is that there is a lot of power in being
able to tell your story in your own voice, and
a lot of times you will not have the ability
to take the trauma and make it yours and own
it until you are able to tell the story. And

(34:54):
I think that's why the criminal justice system allows for
victims impact statements, and I think that is one of
the best things about our criminal justice system. If you
watch the victim's impact statements for the Idaho for families,
for example, you could tell that every single one of
them they struggled, but they all got something out of it,
whatever they needed to get out of it. If they

(35:16):
needed to curse Brian Coburger, they cursed him. If they
needed to forgive him, they forgave him. And if they
just needed to be able to face him, they were
able to do that too. And I think that the
victim's impact statement process is so important. It's something that
I would say anybody who's been touched by crime at all,
it's a great idea. Just try to sit down and
write it as an exercise. Even if you never read it,

(35:39):
even if you never perform it, even if you only
ever do it in your own room, write it because
it does help you to own it and move past it.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
And speaking of incredible survivors, to have a chance to
spend time with Jane Carson Sandler, for example. Some of
you may remember when the Golden State Killer case finally
broke it. Gosh, that's gotta be like six years ago now, yeah, five.
Jane Carson Sandler was one of the people that spoke
to de Angelo and was able to really put in

(36:12):
perspective what her experience and recovery have been like. And
she's such an amazing person. She is and she is.
It was so great to have some time to spend
with her. She's an inspiration.

Speaker 4 (36:27):
Yeah. I told Jane that one of the things.

Speaker 5 (36:30):
That I most appreciate about her, and I gave her
one of these beaded bracelets that I've been making to sell.
I gave her one that said survivor because she is.
And I said, Jane, one of the things that has
helped me most in my own journey is when I
was able to watch you give your victim's impact statement
at the GSK sentencing and I said, I said, I

(36:53):
love the fact that you leaned over and told him
to write in health.

Speaker 4 (36:58):
And she laughed a little.

Speaker 5 (36:59):
Bit, and she said three quarters of me didn't want
to say that.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
Three quarters of me said, you should be good.

Speaker 5 (37:06):
You should not say that, she said, But the quarter
of me that wanted to tell him to rotten hell
for what he'd done. One out, and I said, it
was the quarter that should have one out.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Jack.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
You should have said it, and I'm glad that you did.
She is powerful. She is so moving and even when
she's not speaking. She comes to crime Con every year
and she hangs out, she meets people. She is the
epitome of what it means to survive and still thrive afterwards.
And she's obviously, like very comfortable now in her own

(37:35):
role talking about it. She's definitely processed it, and she
is just a delight to talk to. And I'm so
proud to know her, someone who has overcome so much
and is still so strong and cheerful, because she's very
sunny and she's very optimistic, and she's very sweet. She's
been sending me funny cat videos for the last three
days because she knows I'm having a.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
Hard time getting reintegrated back at school. She is absolutely terrific.

Speaker 5 (38:02):
She's another one of those wonderful crime con people that
I'm glad I get to see them every year.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
No, absolutely, And we saw tons of people many film
have appeared on Mindover Murder, a lot of past guests,
and then we also talked to a lot of people
with and we both turned to one another and said
she'd be great for an upcoming episode. So we made
some incredible connections and we're looking forward to talking with

(38:27):
any number of these people, whether it's again with more
news or it's people that are new to Mind over
Murder that we think you're going to get a big
kick out of. There were so many fantastic people there.
Just so everybody's clear on this. I know we talk
very excitedly about crime. Come, no one's paying us to

(38:47):
say nice things about Yeah, seriously, we actually pay a
significant amount of money and through the help of generous
folks like yourselves, that's helped offset the expenses involved. It
costs two thousand dollars per person to a ten when
you're talking about hotels, transportation, airfare, the cost of the

(39:10):
tickets for crime con. So I want to be for
food all the rest of it. Yeah, Yeah, I want
to be clear here. Crime CON's not paying us to
say nice things about crime, But what a great experience.
We should steer the conversation towards next year's crime con.
So we have had crime Con twenty twenty six coming up.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah, it's they're on this cycle where they do a
crime con in September and then they do it again
eight months later in May, and then they do a
long wait until the next September. So this is one
of those weird circumstances where I'm going to get hit
with two crime cons in the same school year, September
for the one and then May for the other. So

(39:54):
eight months from now, in May of twenty twenty six,
we will be in Las Vegas at Caesar Palace for
Crime Con. That is I think going to be a
lot of fun. I know that Bill hates Vegas with
a burning, fiery passion.

Speaker 4 (40:07):
I am not over the.

Speaker 5 (40:08):
Novelty of Vegas yet, so I'm looking forward to it,
especially because I didn't get to do the things I
wanted to do last time in its entirety, Like I
didn't get to go to New York and Circus, and
I want to do both. I have roller coasters I
want to ride, I have things I want to do.
I'm very excited and looking forward to it. Bill's just
kind of shaking his head.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Let me explain in my defense, I used to have
to go to the consumer Electronics show when I was
working in the what was then called the hi fi industry,
Consumer God consumer Electronics, and so I would go to
the Consumer Electronics Show and it was in Vegas every winter.

(40:47):
I just got tired of Las Vegas and I'm not
a big drinker. I'm not a gambler, and there's not
enough time to go to hear music. It's just it's
not my favorite. And last time we were there with
crime kind a couple of years ago. That was also
the same time as the NFL draft. Yeah, that was
hysteric going on, but it was just like there were

(41:09):
a lot of people there. People extremely crowded and noisy
and difficult to sleep. Yeah, I'm sure it would be
better this time.

Speaker 4 (41:19):
I would say.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
Mccarryan Airport has to be one of the saddest airports
I've ever been to, because you've got people either totally
hungover or still drunk, hanging out waiting for their planes,
and then people who are just glued to the slot
machines and will not leave.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
It's amazing how many different places. Las Vegas manages to
jam in slot machines.

Speaker 5 (41:40):
Also shout out to the Denver Airport man. They were
incredibly efficient on my way out of town. It was
ten minutes from dropping me off at the curb to
getting through security and going to my gate. They are
so efficient and for the first time in many years,
I did not have to take off my shoes at TSA.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, that was a step in the right direction.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
I think.

Speaker 5 (42:01):
My favorite story from the trains running from terminal to
terminal is on my way to luggage claim to pick
up my luggage on the way in to Denver on Thursday,
somebody had not stepped all the way into the train
far enough.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
For the doors to close.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
They have a very passive, aggressive announcement that I heard
that you are the reason we are inconveniencing other people.
Please step inside the doors.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
It was Yes, she was very bossy and had a
Karen like quality to her voice, and she was really
letting them have it. They are the problem. That's why
this problem the brain is not closing or moving, and
it's your fault.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
It was so funny.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
Everybody in the car burst out laughing when they see
a little voice came through the thing like you are
inconveniencing everybody.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, this is your fault.

Speaker 4 (42:55):
I'm going to.

Speaker 5 (42:55):
Start using that with my eleventh graders. You are inconveniencing everybody.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
Just see what that does.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
So let's talk dates. If you've ever thought about going
to crime con, we urge you to at least think
about it. A lot of fun and you make a
connection with people that are into something that you're into,
and you meet a lot of fantastic people. It's a
great experience. So we're headed to Caesar's Palace May twenty

(43:23):
ninth through thirty first in Las Vegas, Nevada. We're really
looking forward to it.

Speaker 5 (43:29):
We definitely have some ideas for panels that we're going
to pitch because I think there's a couple of different
things that we could talk about that we would love
to be able to share. We've got a couple of
different things in the works. Stay tuned for developments here
about things that we're going to do new, better and
different to help grow the podcast a little bit more
while still bringing you the same content that you have
come to know and love. That is going to do

(43:52):
it for this episode of Mind Ever Murder, Thank you
so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas. Five six.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.

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