October 21, 2022 • 31 mins
On December 1, 1997, 14-year-old Michael Carneal opened fire on his fellow students at Heath High School in West Paducah, Kentucky, killing 17-year-old Jessica James, 14-year-old Nicole Hadley and 15-year-old Kayce Steger, and 5 other students were wounded.
In September, 2022, Carneal became the first high-profile school shooter of the modern era to come up for parole, after spending 25-years incarcerated.
Music:
We Talk of Dreams
For sources, visit:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/murderous-minors--2964579/support.
In September, 2022, Carneal became the first high-profile school shooter of the modern era to come up for parole, after spending 25-years incarcerated.
Music:
We Talk of Dreams
For sources, visit:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/murderous-minors--2964579/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
M. Just so you know,this show is built scary stuff. So
don't say I didn't warn you guys. I remember, don't be scared m
(01:00):
episode one thirty seven sentenced to life. War Baby. Here with another episode
of Murderous Miners. For the firsttime, likely ever, a high profile
school shooter came up for parole.I did tell you previously about Brenda Spencer
the quote I hate Monday's shooter,who has been denied parole multiple times and
(01:23):
remains incarcerated, but she didn't targether own school or peers. On this
episode of Murderous Miners, we're talkingabout the kind of school shooter who entered
their own school to terrorize their ownclassmates and teachers, the kind who never
planned to leave that school alive,and if they did, received life without
parole, and then this. It'sbeen nearly a full quarter century since fourteen
(01:48):
year old freshman Michael Carneil entered HeathHigh School in West Paduca, Kentucky and
opened fire. Carneil was interviewed overZoom for his recent parole hearing, which
took place on September nineteenth, twentiethand twenty six, two thousand and twenty
two. It was streamed online,so please be advised that you'll be hearing
snippets of the shooter speaking for himselfabout his crime and his victims, along
(02:14):
with his attempts at explanation. Hewas given a plea deal in nineteen ninety
eight in order to save the communityfrom having to endure a trial. He
played guilty but mentally ill under anAlfred plea to murder, attempted murder,
and burglary in exchange for a sentenceof life in prison with the possibility of
parole after twenty five years. Thedefense had requested twelve years to life,
(02:38):
but out of respect to the victimsfamilies, the prosecution held fast at a
minimum sentence of twenty five years.The death penalty was off the table because
he was under sixteen. The Alfredplea is generally used when the accused acknowledges
that the prosecution has enough evidence tosecure a guilty verdict. Although he himself
(02:58):
was not admitting guilt, Pleading guiltywas required to take the deal, but
the defense wanted to point out thatCarneil hadn't quote aimed at any one person
to cause that person's death. Headded that he quote did not single out
any particular student. When the judgesentenced him in December nineteen ninety eight,
Victim Nicole Hadley's mother said that quote, as a mother, my life has
(03:23):
been forever changed, while victim Kellyhard said that quote, I don't understand.
I don't even care if you're sorry. You chose to do this.
You gave them the death penalty andthey didn't do anything, and it's all
because of you being selfish. VictimCasey Stagger's mother said quote, even answering
the simple question of how many childrendo you have has become very complicated.
(03:46):
Tears have taken the place of wherelaughter used to be. Knowing that we
will not hear Casey's voice again,or kiss her good night, or what
her graduate from high school, wehave a life sentence of grief. We
have no hope of role. Thekilling has taken so much from our family.
We won't let him take more.Casey's father told the court that quote
words cannot explain what he's done.Casey did not have a second chance.
(04:12):
She took a bullet to the backof the head and was dead before she
hit the floor. He held onto the fact that he'd walked her to
the bus stop on the last morningof her life, saying that quote the
last words she ever spoke to mewere I love you. Victim Jessica James's
father stated that quote, the shooterhas killed not only my daughter, but
also a part of my being aswell. Though my mind says she's gone,
(04:35):
my heart still misses her enough toinclude her in my plans, adding
that Carneil was a quote spoiled bratwith no respect for others. He had
the possibility of release one day,but everyone else involved in the Heath High
tragedy was really sentenced to life,and his parole board hearing forced them all
to relive the overwhelming pain and terror, regardless of the eventual outcome and regardless
(04:59):
of who they're related to. Theseare facts that Carneal has spoken about time
and time again. Now in twotwenty two, and at the age of
thirty nine, he held little back, it seemed, though, well aware
that nothing he says can make anydifference to those already hurt by his actions.
Back then, investigators felt that adream sequence in the nineteen ninety five
(05:23):
movie The Basketball Diaries played a partin Carneal's decision to open fire. Though
the topic never came up during therecent parole board hearing. Searching for a
viable explanation. Back in two thousandand two, he told a local newspaper
that quote, there was an incidentin middle school that they put in the
school newspaper that I was gay,and ever since that that label stuck with
(05:46):
me. I was angry, Iwas lonely, I was afraid. I
was just full of emotions and Ididn't know how to control them. Before
the shootings, I would think aboutcertain people who I would have liked to
shoot or hit or do something.For some reason, I thought that if
I did that, I thought thatall my problems would just go away.
But I never really thought about whatwould happen to the people. If somebody
(06:10):
would have just pulled me to theside and talk to me about what was
going on, I probably things wouldhave been a lot different. It was
in my mind so much it justbecame like I needed to bring it into
action for some reason. That interviewcame nearly five years after the shootings,
and he never mentioned anything about hismental health, saying that there was quote
(06:30):
no one, single reason as towhy the shooting took place. At his
recent parole hearing, he said thefollowing, Oh, it's not justified,
not just about at all. There'sno excuse for it at all. And
the reason it hadn't it is likea combination of factors in my life,
and when I look at it,bows because I was a coward. Although
(06:56):
Carneil didn't tell anyone initially, whenhe reportedly began stronger medications in prison around
two thousand and three, he beganto say that he hallucinated men called the
Danes and heard their voices in hishead telling him to shoot at his classmates.
There was no aiming, no intendedtarget, he said then and still
says now, just voices telling himwhat to do and when and what they
(07:20):
tell you to be. They gotthe gun backpack, hold it front of
me and shoot it was It's notthere's no justification or excuse for what I
did. I'm offering an explanation.I realized there's no excuse for what I
did. That's just I'm just tryingto explain them now. Twenty five years
(07:42):
after Nicole Hadley, Casey Stagger,and Jessica James were murdered and five other
students were wounded, their shooters,says he still hears voices. On September
twentieth, two thousand and twenty two, day two of his parole board hearing,
Carneal revealed when questioned that even withmedications for paranoid schizophrenia and visits with
(08:05):
behavioral health professionals, the voices havenever stopped giving him commands. The difference
between now when when he was fourteenyears old, he explained, is that
he now knows that he doesn't haveto do as they say. Carnell continues
to hear commanding voices from within andreportedly has paranoid thoughts containing violent imagery.
(08:28):
His prognosis has been deemed poor.So if we fast forward from that day
till today, are you still havinghearing voices that tell you to do things?
Yes? Okay? What kind ofthings are they telling you to do?
A different things? Sometimes it's justlike to screen. Sometimes it's something
(08:50):
I would seem that would seem sillyto me. And most of the time
it's it's it's things that hurt myselfor something like that. And I know
now that that's not something that Ishould do, and I'm able to not
(09:11):
do it and rationalize that it's notsomething that I should do. And what
I'm hearing is not not real,but on like a subconscious level, it
is something that is inside in mymind. This is produced by my mind.
And that's troubling to me that anythingthat I've heard at any point in
(09:33):
my life was part of me.These terrible things is something that came from
me. Mister Carneal, when wasthe last time that you heard one of
these voices that told you to dosomething harmful? A couple of days ago?
And do you recall what that voicetold you to do? Jump off
(09:54):
the stairs, jump down the stairs. In regards to December first to nineteen
ninety seven, Carneal told the boardthat he began planning the shooting a week
before, and that he stole theguns from his neighbor's garage on Thanksgiving night.
He knew where they were and howto access them because it was also
(10:15):
a friend in classmates house. Theowner of the guns was not prosecuted,
and he eventually was returned the firearmsnot used in the shooting. That Monday
was the first day back to schoolfollowing Thanksgiving break, and Carneal's older sister
drove him, not noticing anything outof the ordinary when he was asked what
he had wrapped in the blanket,he simply replied that it was for a
(10:37):
school project. No one questioned himor realized it was several loaded rifles.
The day of the shooting wasn't thefirst time he'd brought guns to school,
and although several students saw him withone of his dad's guns on the day
before Thanksgiving, no one reported Carneal'sbehavior. I had gone I had taken
(10:58):
the school several days before the incident, not all the weapons. I was
showing it off to people. Ithought it was interesting, and I thought
it was just something that people thoughtit would be cool to show off.
It had been a long time thingwhere I had thought about what it would
be like to be in the schooland just nobody would be there. It
(11:24):
would just just run around, andI don't know, I thought about what
it'd be like be in the balland nobody else there, and situations like
that, and it just kind ofdeveloped into the idea of what it would
be like if people were we're we'renot there. Because it's something I did.
(11:50):
I don't know exactly. I didn'tthink exactly about like shooting people and
killing them. It was just somethingOriginally it was just something that I thought
I would do something and everybody wouldleave the school and I would just run
around. I just I think itstarted out as a mischievous mind and it
(12:11):
developed into more than that. SoI think a lot worse than that.
Back then, he was portrayed asboth bullied and a bully, with shooting
survivor Missy Jenkins saying that she'd seenboth, but she also said that she
considered Carneil a friend that admitted thatHeath High School did have their issues with
(12:33):
bullying at the time. No one, however, foresaw the carnage that would
come, and everyone was surprised torealize who was responsible. But now that
I looked back, I realized thatthere were a lot of people that supported
me and helped me and we're friendswith me that I took for granted,
and I didn't realize that because ofmy perception of how I was being treated.
(12:56):
By all accounts and his own.He came from a supportive, regular
family, with a father who wasa respected attorney, a loving stay at
home mother, and an older sister, a senior alongside him at Heath High
School who was on track to becomevaledictorian for that year. His mother volunteered
at church, and both parents werefixtures among the band volunteers and chaperons.
(13:20):
They never did anything to me tomake me feel bad. I grew up
in a very good home, youknow. Dad was just regular hour as
we ate dinner together. There wasa good home life. But an event,
you know, towards closer to thecommission of the crime, and he's
kind of deteriorated with me and theway I trusted my parents and my sister
(13:43):
and the way I thought something thathappened to them, and I would say
at the time of the crime,they weren't aware that I was having any
difficulties at all. I don't think, but I'm looking back on it now,
(14:05):
I think, thank thanking everything theycould. They were loving and support
about being every way they could be, my parents and my sister. His
father recalled him as quote a personwho enjoyed people, but was an observer
of life rather than a participant.In the months leading up to the shootings,
it seemed that the freshman was havinga difficult transition to high school.
(14:30):
He was acting paranoid at home,and some of his writings at school contained
depictions of violence and outright admissions ofa low self esteem. His father even
mentioned at a parent teacher conference thatCarneal liked attention and reportedly said that quote,
you're going to have a real hellraiser. He reportedly said his son
was hyperactive, although he didn't havean official diagnosis. Carneal didn't have an
(14:54):
official diagnosis for anything as a matterof fact, and honestly, he was
too young at the time of theshot to have been declared a paranoid schizophrenic,
which was his eventual diagnosis. Thosewho knew him characterized him as bright,
fidgety, and an oddball, butno one said that he was homicidal
or seemed to be suffering from mentalhealth issues. Some reports indicate that he'd
(15:16):
printed pornographic images from the family computerto sell to his friends for a quarter
a piece, and that he wasusing stolen credit card numbers to order things
online, not exactly the typical classclown behavior many attributed to him, and
he'd never said that voices in hishead played any part in his behaviors.
(15:37):
Back then, well, I wasexperiencing, I was I was hearing things,
and I was extremely higher suspicious,and I had felt for years feeling
alienated and different, and I thinkthat when I started to develop mental health
(15:58):
problems that into that, and itkind of it made it made my mental
health problems worse. That I hadspent those years feeling like that, and
it got to the point where Iwas I was hearing things in my mind
(16:22):
to do certain things, and Iwas doing them. I wasn't I wasn't
strong enough for I wasn't thinking properlyenough to evaluate what I was being told
to do, and I just foundmyself doing them different things that I think
the first thing, one of thefirst things I remember was I had a
(16:45):
pistol that I had gotten out ofa lockbox and my father's cause it and
I had it. I was lookingat it and I heard in my head
to shoot myself and I was holdingto my head and then I put it
in my mouth and I put itmy head to my head, and I
just I didn't do it for somereason, I don't know why. That
(17:07):
was one instance for what I washearing to do. And to me,
that shows that at any point intime I should have been able to not
do, but I was hearing todo because and I instance, I did
(17:29):
so in my mind, I thinknow maybe anytime that happened, I should
have been able to not do it. Following the murders, a good deal
of attention was paid to the groupof kids Carneal hung around with that school,
stereotypical nineties grunge kids who skateboarded,wore black nail polish and trench coats,
(17:49):
and listened to alternative music. Policelooked into the Satanic cult angle,
as this was nineteen ninety seven,but could find no correlation. Regardless of
the impression they gave off. Investigatorsnever determined that anyone else knew what Carneal
planned to do, including classmates andfamily members. It was a valid assumption
(18:11):
at the time because he'd brought extraearplugs, one thousand rounds of ammunition,
plus four rifles in addition to thetwenty two caliber handgun. I took them
simply because I had them. Itwasn't I've heard over the past years people
think that there was other students orother people involved in the crime. There
(18:33):
was thought, that's not why therewere other guns. I just took them
because I had them. Carneal saidhe stole the firearms after his family's Thanksgiving
dinner when he went over to hisfriend's house, but they weren't home,
leaving the chance for the guns tobe taken from the garage. Carneal later
told mental health evaluators that he putthe guns in a bag and left them
(18:53):
outside his house, putting them underhis bed when the coast was clear.
Four days later, on Monday,December first, nineteen ninety seven, he
put the pistol in his backpack,wrapped to the four rifles in a rainbow
adorned blinket that belonged to his sister, and headed off to school. I
got to the lobby, I setthem down, and guns. I took
(19:15):
off my backpack and a gun andammunition, and I just kind of stood
around for a while, just kindof standing there. And then I went
got the gun at the backpack andI held it in front of me,
and I don't remember firing the gunor how many times I fired it.
(19:41):
But the next thing I remember ispeople laying on the ground, and there
was another student that came from behindlike a brick column, and he asked
me what I was doing. Idon't remember what the probably exchange was,
(20:02):
but he was approaching me as wewere talking, and I seemed to remember
telling him to kill me. I'mnot sure if that's the exact words,
but the principal came out and gotme and took me back to the offices
and they put me in the roomwith I don't know who he was.
(20:22):
He was a staff member that weren'tthere, and he was asking me.
He asked me some questions. Idon't remember exactly what they were, but
they just seemed to odd to meat the time. They just seemed kind
of random, and I waited forthe police to show up. He told
them, quote, it was kindof like I was in a dream and
then I woke up when they askedhim why he'd done it. Carneal told
(20:45):
investigators that quote, I just gotmad because everybody kept making fun of me
for all kinds of things nerd,and they were always calling me crack baby
and freak because I'm different. Iguess. His parents said they had a
normal morning until they received a phonecall soon after their kids went to school
letting them know that something bad hadgone down at Heath High. They went
(21:08):
separately because Carneil's mother needed to getdressed, while Carnel's father left and waited
outside the counselor's office. Soon after, he was told Quote to come in
that he needed to talk to me. That is when he told me that
Michael had shot the gun. Hedidn't see his son again until his preliminary
hearing. Seeing that the teen quoteappeared totally disconnected from reality, he didn't
(21:33):
know what was going on or whathad happened. Kasey Nicoll, Jessica,
Craig holland Melissa. I called herBessie, Kelley and Shelley. Nicole was
a very good friend. I considerhow a very good friend, you know,
looking back, I thinks I do. And some of my new more
(22:00):
and others, the ones that werein high higher grades grades above me,
I didn't know as well, butI still knew them. I mean it's
a small school and a lot ofthese people were in band with me.
I knew. I knew all ofthem, and I did to several of
his birthday parties. Uh. Youknow, I have memories of the different
ones at different times, and noneof them had do I have any day
(22:22):
who remember he spent? I didn'tdo the ball. Mister Carnell. Who
was Nicole? She was a friend. She's one of my victims. That
had been killed. Can't you recrempareshe was one of my friends and she
she's dead now. I killed her. Who was Holly. He was lived
around the corner from me. Iwould now look back. I would consider
(22:45):
him a friend. He's also oneof my victims. Misty, she was
she was I think you're grade athand of me, and I knew her
pretty well too. She's one ofmy victims. Casey, she's one of
my victims. We were in bandtogether and she she offered me a seat
(23:06):
next to her on the bus.I'll never forget that. Nobody would let
me sit with them, and shelet me sit. We were all going
on a trip and she said,you can sit here. And I'll never
forget that. Jessica, she's oneof my victims. She was older than
me by three or four years.I think she was older, but she
was also in the band that shewas always a legged leader, a positive
(23:30):
leader in the band. She wasalways helping the younger people out. Kelly,
she was one of my victims aswell. She Uh. She was
friends with Melissa Jenkins, but oneof my other victims, and they were
they were they were hanging out together. I'm even today when these things happened,
(23:52):
I feel responsible for them on somelevel. When I was in Thistly
around asted for about a year afterthat, I wasn't in a situation where
I was where I had media access, so I didn't realize a lot of
this stuff was going on. Andthen in ninety nine, when I was
(24:15):
sent to the Norman, Kentucky YouthDevelopment Center, there was a little bit
more newspaper and magazine that says andthat's when Columbine happened, and that really
I really feel responsible for that.That's when I became suicidal, when I
attempted to hurt myself and I hadto be sent to a hospital because Today.
(24:37):
Killed during the Heath High School shootingwas fourteen year old Nicole Hadley,
who loved church and played the clarinetand basketball. Fifteen year old Casey Steger,
who also played the clarinet and wasan outfielder on the softball team.
She was a police explorer, alreadyworking on her future career in law enforcement.
(24:59):
And seventeen year old Jessica James,who loved church, the Tasmanian Devil
from Looney Tunes, and her Frenchhorn so much so that her parents buried
it with her. Five students wereinjured that day, including fifteen year old
Missy Jenkins, who was shot inthe chest, causing a spinal injury that
left her wheelchair bound. Her twinsister was there but wasn't injured, although
(25:22):
her best friend, sixteen year oldKelly Hard was shot in the shoulder.
Fifteen year old Craig Keene, whoplayed basketball, football, sang in the
choir, and played in the band, was shot in the neck, as
was seventeen year old Shelley Shaberg,a senior considered quote, maybe the best
athlete we had in the school.According to their former principle. Fourteen year
(25:47):
old Holland Holm had been voted mostlikely to succeed in junior high and was
a history buff at academic. Hewas grazed in the head by a bullet
fired by his friend. Of thevictims in family members who spoke on day
one of Carneal's parole, hearing onlyHolland Holme advocated for his former friend's parole.
(26:07):
Although he grew up to start afamily and become an attorney, he
suffered the lasting effects, saying,in part quote, I was a fourteen
year old child, I laid onthe floor in the lobby of Heath High
School, bled from the side ofmy head and believed I was going to
die. I said a prayer andreadied myself to die. Almost twenty five
years later, I still have troublebeing in crowds of people. When I
(26:33):
think of Michael Carneal, I thinkof the child I rolled the bus with
every day. I think of thechild I shared a lunch table with in
third grade. I think of whathe could have become if on that day
he had it somewhere in him tomake a different choice or take a different
path. Michael Carneal has done muchto cause justifiable anger. I feel that
(26:53):
anger too. But when I feelthat anger, I think about the fourteen
year old boy who acted day,and I think of my own children,
and I think the man that boybecame should get the chance to try to
do and be better. If themental health experts think he can be successful
on the outside, he should getthat chance. I have to think that
(27:14):
after twenty five years, he's adifferent person than he was that day,
as we are all different people todaythan we were twenty five years ago.
Nicole Hadley's father said that quote ourfamily's lives have been impacted by the moment
in nineteen ninety seven. The memoriesthat we have can never be replaced.
Her mother said that quote, Wethe families, the survivors, and people
(27:37):
that were at the school, andthe whole community were given a life sentence
by the shooter and didn't have theopportunity to get a second chance, a
reduced sentence. We've missed Nicole's highschool graduation, her college graduation, her
wedding, her kids, our grandkids, and many birthdays and holidays together.
Nicole's older sister said that quote,Over the last twenty five years, I've
(27:59):
had to learn how to deal witha lot, and most people will never
understand what I've been through. Fromwhat I understand, I was the first
sibling to survive a school shooting whereI lost a sibling. For me,
it's not fair for him to beable to roam around with freedom when we
live in fear of where he mightbe. Nicole was given a life sentence,
Michael pleaded to a life sentence.I believe that he should have to
(28:22):
spend the rest of his life incarcerated. She pointed out that back in nineteen
ninety seven, Nicole had recently toldCarneal she wouldn't date him, and that
Nicole was the first to be killedby a bullet to the forehead, adding
that quote, Nicole did not agreewith how Michael treated people and the things
that he did, but because shewas so kind hearted, she was friends
with him. Michael was not akid who did not have friends, as
(28:45):
he's led people to believe. Ibelieve that Michael knew what he was doing.
The day of the shooting. Hefired eight shots and hit eight different
people, which in my eyes,is a very difficult task. Missy Jenkin
Smith, who was paralyzed from thechest down, went on to college and
became a social worker. She marriedher college sweetheart, started a family,
(29:07):
became an author and a public speaker, but it was difficult, she said,
adding that quote, I could speakfor hours about what my life has
been like, every minute of everyday the last quarter century. Without the
use of my legs, I havebeen sentenced to life without the possibility of
parole. After living the consequence ofMichael Carneal's decision, I'm forced to continue
(29:29):
with every day getting harder and harderas the years passed during my life sentence.
I will continue to serve out thatconsequence. Michael's decision for me will
be my entire life the future,and the fear of it haunts me.
Regarding Carneal's possible release, she saidquote, continuing his life in prison is
the only way his victims can feelcomfortable and safe without being haunted by what
(29:52):
ifs. Mister Carneal the eauly hedeserved an opportunity of parole today, I
don't know that all. I meanthat it depends on when you ask me.
Sometimes I think, you know thatI would just deserve to be killed,
you know. Sometimes I think thathonestly, and then other times I
think that due to the fact thatI could do good for a lot of
(30:17):
people, maybe that it would beit would be beneficial if I were released
someday. Following two days of testimonybefore a partial panel of Parole Board members,
they couldn't decide and put Carneal's ultimatefeat before a vote of the full
board the following week, on Septembertwenty sixth, two thousand and twenty two.
(30:41):
The seven member board could have votedto release him, told him to
come back at a later date,or ordered him to serve out his full
sentence of life incarceration, which iswhat they unanimously decided. Mister Carneal,
can you see and hear us?Okay? Yes? After deliberating, mister
Carneal to the seriousness of your crime, your crime involved a weapon, you
(31:03):
had lives taken, and the seriousnessagain, it is the decision of the
corroboard today to allow you to serveout the remainder of your sentence. Thank
you, sir. Yes. MichaelCarneil, now thirty nine years old,
is housed at the Kentucky State Reformatoryin Lagrange, Kentucky. His mother once
recalled how her cousin's kidney transplant helpedNicole Hadley want to become an organ donor.
(31:30):
One day, seeing that quote,my cousin came in once and I
introduced to them. Nicole said thatwhen she got her driver's license, she
wanted to sign it so that ifanything happened to her, her organs could
be donated, and they were makingit possible for her heart, lungs,
and more to give others life
M. Just so you know,this show is built scary stuff. So
don't say I didn't warn you guys. I remember, don't be scared m
(01:00):
episode one thirty seven sentenced to life. War Baby. Here with another episode
of Murderous Miners. For the firsttime, likely ever, a high profile
school shooter came up for parole.I did tell you previously about Brenda Spencer
the quote I hate Monday's shooter,who has been denied parole multiple times and
(01:23):
remains incarcerated, but she didn't targether own school or peers. On this
episode of Murderous Miners, we're talkingabout the kind of school shooter who entered
their own school to terrorize their ownclassmates and teachers, the kind who never
planned to leave that school alive,and if they did, received life without
parole, and then this. It'sbeen nearly a full quarter century since fourteen
(01:48):
year old freshman Michael Carneil entered HeathHigh School in West Paduca, Kentucky and
opened fire. Carneil was interviewed overZoom for his recent parole hearing, which
took place on September nineteenth, twentiethand twenty six, two thousand and twenty
two. It was streamed online,so please be advised that you'll be hearing
snippets of the shooter speaking for himselfabout his crime and his victims, along
(02:14):
with his attempts at explanation. Hewas given a plea deal in nineteen ninety
eight in order to save the communityfrom having to endure a trial. He
played guilty but mentally ill under anAlfred plea to murder, attempted murder,
and burglary in exchange for a sentenceof life in prison with the possibility of
parole after twenty five years. Thedefense had requested twelve years to life,
(02:38):
but out of respect to the victimsfamilies, the prosecution held fast at a
minimum sentence of twenty five years.The death penalty was off the table because
he was under sixteen. The Alfredplea is generally used when the accused acknowledges
that the prosecution has enough evidence tosecure a guilty verdict. Although he himself
(02:58):
was not admitting guilt, Pleading guiltywas required to take the deal, but
the defense wanted to point out thatCarneil hadn't quote aimed at any one person
to cause that person's death. Headded that he quote did not single out
any particular student. When the judgesentenced him in December nineteen ninety eight,
Victim Nicole Hadley's mother said that quote, as a mother, my life has
(03:23):
been forever changed, while victim Kellyhard said that quote, I don't understand.
I don't even care if you're sorry. You chose to do this.
You gave them the death penalty andthey didn't do anything, and it's all
because of you being selfish. VictimCasey Stagger's mother said quote, even answering
the simple question of how many childrendo you have has become very complicated.
(03:46):
Tears have taken the place of wherelaughter used to be. Knowing that we
will not hear Casey's voice again,or kiss her good night, or what
her graduate from high school, wehave a life sentence of grief. We
have no hope of role. Thekilling has taken so much from our family.
We won't let him take more.Casey's father told the court that quote
words cannot explain what he's done.Casey did not have a second chance.
(04:12):
She took a bullet to the backof the head and was dead before she
hit the floor. He held onto the fact that he'd walked her to
the bus stop on the last morningof her life, saying that quote the
last words she ever spoke to mewere I love you. Victim Jessica James's
father stated that quote, the shooterhas killed not only my daughter, but
also a part of my being aswell. Though my mind says she's gone,
(04:35):
my heart still misses her enough toinclude her in my plans, adding
that Carneil was a quote spoiled bratwith no respect for others. He had
the possibility of release one day,but everyone else involved in the Heath High
tragedy was really sentenced to life,and his parole board hearing forced them all
to relive the overwhelming pain and terror, regardless of the eventual outcome and regardless
(04:59):
of who they're related to. Theseare facts that Carneal has spoken about time
and time again. Now in twotwenty two, and at the age of
thirty nine, he held little back, it seemed, though, well aware
that nothing he says can make anydifference to those already hurt by his actions.
Back then, investigators felt that adream sequence in the nineteen ninety five
(05:23):
movie The Basketball Diaries played a partin Carneal's decision to open fire. Though
the topic never came up during therecent parole board hearing. Searching for a
viable explanation. Back in two thousandand two, he told a local newspaper
that quote, there was an incidentin middle school that they put in the
school newspaper that I was gay,and ever since that that label stuck with
(05:46):
me. I was angry, Iwas lonely, I was afraid. I
was just full of emotions and Ididn't know how to control them. Before
the shootings, I would think aboutcertain people who I would have liked to
shoot or hit or do something.For some reason, I thought that if
I did that, I thought thatall my problems would just go away.
But I never really thought about whatwould happen to the people. If somebody
(06:10):
would have just pulled me to theside and talk to me about what was
going on, I probably things wouldhave been a lot different. It was
in my mind so much it justbecame like I needed to bring it into
action for some reason. That interviewcame nearly five years after the shootings,
and he never mentioned anything about hismental health, saying that there was quote
(06:30):
no one, single reason as towhy the shooting took place. At his
recent parole hearing, he said thefollowing, Oh, it's not justified,
not just about at all. There'sno excuse for it at all. And
the reason it hadn't it is likea combination of factors in my life,
and when I look at it,bows because I was a coward. Although
(06:56):
Carneil didn't tell anyone initially, whenhe reportedly began stronger medications in prison around
two thousand and three, he beganto say that he hallucinated men called the
Danes and heard their voices in hishead telling him to shoot at his classmates.
There was no aiming, no intendedtarget, he said then and still
says now, just voices telling himwhat to do and when and what they
(07:20):
tell you to be. They gotthe gun backpack, hold it front of
me and shoot it was It's notthere's no justification or excuse for what I
did. I'm offering an explanation.I realized there's no excuse for what I
did. That's just I'm just tryingto explain them now. Twenty five years
(07:42):
after Nicole Hadley, Casey Stagger,and Jessica James were murdered and five other
students were wounded, their shooters,says he still hears voices. On September
twentieth, two thousand and twenty two, day two of his parole board hearing,
Carneal revealed when questioned that even withmedications for paranoid schizophrenia and visits with
(08:05):
behavioral health professionals, the voices havenever stopped giving him commands. The difference
between now when when he was fourteenyears old, he explained, is that
he now knows that he doesn't haveto do as they say. Carnell continues
to hear commanding voices from within andreportedly has paranoid thoughts containing violent imagery.
(08:28):
His prognosis has been deemed poor.So if we fast forward from that day
till today, are you still havinghearing voices that tell you to do things?
Yes? Okay? What kind ofthings are they telling you to do?
A different things? Sometimes it's justlike to screen. Sometimes it's something
(08:50):
I would seem that would seem sillyto me. And most of the time
it's it's it's things that hurt myselfor something like that. And I know
now that that's not something that Ishould do, and I'm able to not
(09:11):
do it and rationalize that it's notsomething that I should do. And what
I'm hearing is not not real,but on like a subconscious level, it
is something that is inside in mymind. This is produced by my mind.
And that's troubling to me that anythingthat I've heard at any point in
(09:33):
my life was part of me.These terrible things is something that came from
me. Mister Carneal, when wasthe last time that you heard one of
these voices that told you to dosomething harmful? A couple of days ago?
And do you recall what that voicetold you to do? Jump off
(09:54):
the stairs, jump down the stairs. In regards to December first to nineteen
ninety seven, Carneal told the boardthat he began planning the shooting a week
before, and that he stole theguns from his neighbor's garage on Thanksgiving night.
He knew where they were and howto access them because it was also
(10:15):
a friend in classmates house. Theowner of the guns was not prosecuted,
and he eventually was returned the firearmsnot used in the shooting. That Monday
was the first day back to schoolfollowing Thanksgiving break, and Carneal's older sister
drove him, not noticing anything outof the ordinary when he was asked what
he had wrapped in the blanket,he simply replied that it was for a
(10:37):
school project. No one questioned himor realized it was several loaded rifles.
The day of the shooting wasn't thefirst time he'd brought guns to school,
and although several students saw him withone of his dad's guns on the day
before Thanksgiving, no one reported Carneal'sbehavior. I had gone I had taken
(10:58):
the school several days before the incident, not all the weapons. I was
showing it off to people. Ithought it was interesting, and I thought
it was just something that people thoughtit would be cool to show off.
It had been a long time thingwhere I had thought about what it would
be like to be in the schooland just nobody would be there. It
(11:24):
would just just run around, andI don't know, I thought about what
it'd be like be in the balland nobody else there, and situations like
that, and it just kind ofdeveloped into the idea of what it would
be like if people were we're we'renot there. Because it's something I did.
(11:50):
I don't know exactly. I didn'tthink exactly about like shooting people and
killing them. It was just somethingOriginally it was just something that I thought
I would do something and everybody wouldleave the school and I would just run
around. I just I think itstarted out as a mischievous mind and it
(12:11):
developed into more than that. SoI think a lot worse than that.
Back then, he was portrayed asboth bullied and a bully, with shooting
survivor Missy Jenkins saying that she'd seenboth, but she also said that she
considered Carneil a friend that admitted thatHeath High School did have their issues with
(12:33):
bullying at the time. No one, however, foresaw the carnage that would
come, and everyone was surprised torealize who was responsible. But now that
I looked back, I realized thatthere were a lot of people that supported
me and helped me and we're friendswith me that I took for granted,
and I didn't realize that because ofmy perception of how I was being treated.
(12:56):
By all accounts and his own.He came from a supportive, regular
family, with a father who wasa respected attorney, a loving stay at
home mother, and an older sister, a senior alongside him at Heath High
School who was on track to becomevaledictorian for that year. His mother volunteered
at church, and both parents werefixtures among the band volunteers and chaperons.
(13:20):
They never did anything to me tomake me feel bad. I grew up
in a very good home, youknow. Dad was just regular hour as
we ate dinner together. There wasa good home life. But an event,
you know, towards closer to thecommission of the crime, and he's
kind of deteriorated with me and theway I trusted my parents and my sister
(13:43):
and the way I thought something thathappened to them, and I would say
at the time of the crime,they weren't aware that I was having any
difficulties at all. I don't think, but I'm looking back on it now,
(14:05):
I think, thank thanking everything theycould. They were loving and support
about being every way they could be, my parents and my sister. His
father recalled him as quote a personwho enjoyed people, but was an observer
of life rather than a participant.In the months leading up to the shootings,
it seemed that the freshman was havinga difficult transition to high school.
(14:30):
He was acting paranoid at home,and some of his writings at school contained
depictions of violence and outright admissions ofa low self esteem. His father even
mentioned at a parent teacher conference thatCarneal liked attention and reportedly said that quote,
you're going to have a real hellraiser. He reportedly said his son
was hyperactive, although he didn't havean official diagnosis. Carneal didn't have an
(14:54):
official diagnosis for anything as a matterof fact, and honestly, he was
too young at the time of theshot to have been declared a paranoid schizophrenic,
which was his eventual diagnosis. Thosewho knew him characterized him as bright,
fidgety, and an oddball, butno one said that he was homicidal
or seemed to be suffering from mentalhealth issues. Some reports indicate that he'd
(15:16):
printed pornographic images from the family computerto sell to his friends for a quarter
a piece, and that he wasusing stolen credit card numbers to order things
online, not exactly the typical classclown behavior many attributed to him, and
he'd never said that voices in hishead played any part in his behaviors.
(15:37):
Back then, well, I wasexperiencing, I was I was hearing things,
and I was extremely higher suspicious,and I had felt for years feeling
alienated and different, and I thinkthat when I started to develop mental health
(15:58):
problems that into that, and itkind of it made it made my mental
health problems worse. That I hadspent those years feeling like that, and
it got to the point where Iwas I was hearing things in my mind
(16:22):
to do certain things, and Iwas doing them. I wasn't I wasn't
strong enough for I wasn't thinking properlyenough to evaluate what I was being told
to do, and I just foundmyself doing them different things that I think
the first thing, one of thefirst things I remember was I had a
(16:45):
pistol that I had gotten out ofa lockbox and my father's cause it and
I had it. I was lookingat it and I heard in my head
to shoot myself and I was holdingto my head and then I put it
in my mouth and I put itmy head to my head, and I
just I didn't do it for somereason, I don't know why. That
(17:07):
was one instance for what I washearing to do. And to me,
that shows that at any point intime I should have been able to not
do, but I was hearing todo because and I instance, I did
(17:29):
so in my mind, I thinknow maybe anytime that happened, I should
have been able to not do it. Following the murders, a good deal
of attention was paid to the groupof kids Carneal hung around with that school,
stereotypical nineties grunge kids who skateboarded,wore black nail polish and trench coats,
(17:49):
and listened to alternative music. Policelooked into the Satanic cult angle,
as this was nineteen ninety seven,but could find no correlation. Regardless of
the impression they gave off. Investigatorsnever determined that anyone else knew what Carneal
planned to do, including classmates andfamily members. It was a valid assumption
(18:11):
at the time because he'd brought extraearplugs, one thousand rounds of ammunition,
plus four rifles in addition to thetwenty two caliber handgun. I took them
simply because I had them. Itwasn't I've heard over the past years people
think that there was other students orother people involved in the crime. There
(18:33):
was thought, that's not why therewere other guns. I just took them
because I had them. Carneal saidhe stole the firearms after his family's Thanksgiving
dinner when he went over to hisfriend's house, but they weren't home,
leaving the chance for the guns tobe taken from the garage. Carneal later
told mental health evaluators that he putthe guns in a bag and left them
(18:53):
outside his house, putting them underhis bed when the coast was clear.
Four days later, on Monday,December first, nineteen ninety seven, he
put the pistol in his backpack,wrapped to the four rifles in a rainbow
adorned blinket that belonged to his sister, and headed off to school. I
got to the lobby, I setthem down, and guns. I took
(19:15):
off my backpack and a gun andammunition, and I just kind of stood
around for a while, just kindof standing there. And then I went
got the gun at the backpack andI held it in front of me,
and I don't remember firing the gunor how many times I fired it.
(19:41):
But the next thing I remember ispeople laying on the ground, and there
was another student that came from behindlike a brick column, and he asked
me what I was doing. Idon't remember what the probably exchange was,
(20:02):
but he was approaching me as wewere talking, and I seemed to remember
telling him to kill me. I'mnot sure if that's the exact words,
but the principal came out and gotme and took me back to the offices
and they put me in the roomwith I don't know who he was.
(20:22):
He was a staff member that weren'tthere, and he was asking me.
He asked me some questions. Idon't remember exactly what they were, but
they just seemed to odd to meat the time. They just seemed kind
of random, and I waited forthe police to show up. He told
them, quote, it was kindof like I was in a dream and
then I woke up when they askedhim why he'd done it. Carneal told
(20:45):
investigators that quote, I just gotmad because everybody kept making fun of me
for all kinds of things nerd,and they were always calling me crack baby
and freak because I'm different. Iguess. His parents said they had a
normal morning until they received a phonecall soon after their kids went to school
letting them know that something bad hadgone down at Heath High. They went
(21:08):
separately because Carneil's mother needed to getdressed, while Carnel's father left and waited
outside the counselor's office. Soon after, he was told Quote to come in
that he needed to talk to me. That is when he told me that
Michael had shot the gun. Hedidn't see his son again until his preliminary
hearing. Seeing that the teen quoteappeared totally disconnected from reality, he didn't
(21:33):
know what was going on or whathad happened. Kasey Nicoll, Jessica,
Craig holland Melissa. I called herBessie, Kelley and Shelley. Nicole was
a very good friend. I considerhow a very good friend, you know,
looking back, I thinks I do. And some of my new more
(22:00):
and others, the ones that werein high higher grades grades above me,
I didn't know as well, butI still knew them. I mean it's
a small school and a lot ofthese people were in band with me.
I knew. I knew all ofthem, and I did to several of
his birthday parties. Uh. Youknow, I have memories of the different
ones at different times, and noneof them had do I have any day
(22:22):
who remember he spent? I didn'tdo the ball. Mister Carnell. Who
was Nicole? She was a friend. She's one of my victims. That
had been killed. Can't you recrempareshe was one of my friends and she
she's dead now. I killed her. Who was Holly. He was lived
around the corner from me. Iwould now look back. I would consider
(22:45):
him a friend. He's also oneof my victims. Misty, she was
she was I think you're grade athand of me, and I knew her
pretty well too. She's one ofmy victims. Casey, she's one of
my victims. We were in bandtogether and she she offered me a seat
(23:06):
next to her on the bus.I'll never forget that. Nobody would let
me sit with them, and shelet me sit. We were all going
on a trip and she said,you can sit here. And I'll never
forget that. Jessica, she's oneof my victims. She was older than
me by three or four years.I think she was older, but she
was also in the band that shewas always a legged leader, a positive
(23:30):
leader in the band. She wasalways helping the younger people out. Kelly,
she was one of my victims aswell. She Uh. She was
friends with Melissa Jenkins, but oneof my other victims, and they were
they were they were hanging out together. I'm even today when these things happened,
(23:52):
I feel responsible for them on somelevel. When I was in Thistly
around asted for about a year afterthat, I wasn't in a situation where
I was where I had media access, so I didn't realize a lot of
this stuff was going on. Andthen in ninety nine, when I was
(24:15):
sent to the Norman, Kentucky YouthDevelopment Center, there was a little bit
more newspaper and magazine that says andthat's when Columbine happened, and that really
I really feel responsible for that.That's when I became suicidal, when I
attempted to hurt myself and I hadto be sent to a hospital because Today.
(24:37):
Killed during the Heath High School shootingwas fourteen year old Nicole Hadley,
who loved church and played the clarinetand basketball. Fifteen year old Casey Steger,
who also played the clarinet and wasan outfielder on the softball team.
She was a police explorer, alreadyworking on her future career in law enforcement.
(24:59):
And seventeen year old Jessica James,who loved church, the Tasmanian Devil
from Looney Tunes, and her Frenchhorn so much so that her parents buried
it with her. Five students wereinjured that day, including fifteen year old
Missy Jenkins, who was shot inthe chest, causing a spinal injury that
left her wheelchair bound. Her twinsister was there but wasn't injured, although
(25:22):
her best friend, sixteen year oldKelly Hard was shot in the shoulder.
Fifteen year old Craig Keene, whoplayed basketball, football, sang in the
choir, and played in the band, was shot in the neck, as
was seventeen year old Shelley Shaberg,a senior considered quote, maybe the best
athlete we had in the school.According to their former principle. Fourteen year
(25:47):
old Holland Holm had been voted mostlikely to succeed in junior high and was
a history buff at academic. Hewas grazed in the head by a bullet
fired by his friend. Of thevictims in family members who spoke on day
one of Carneal's parole, hearing onlyHolland Holme advocated for his former friend's parole.
(26:07):
Although he grew up to start afamily and become an attorney, he
suffered the lasting effects, saying,in part quote, I was a fourteen
year old child, I laid onthe floor in the lobby of Heath High
School, bled from the side ofmy head and believed I was going to
die. I said a prayer andreadied myself to die. Almost twenty five
years later, I still have troublebeing in crowds of people. When I
(26:33):
think of Michael Carneal, I thinkof the child I rolled the bus with
every day. I think of thechild I shared a lunch table with in
third grade. I think of whathe could have become if on that day
he had it somewhere in him tomake a different choice or take a different
path. Michael Carneal has done muchto cause justifiable anger. I feel that
(26:53):
anger too. But when I feelthat anger, I think about the fourteen
year old boy who acted day,and I think of my own children,
and I think the man that boybecame should get the chance to try to
do and be better. If themental health experts think he can be successful
on the outside, he should getthat chance. I have to think that
(27:14):
after twenty five years, he's adifferent person than he was that day,
as we are all different people todaythan we were twenty five years ago.
Nicole Hadley's father said that quote ourfamily's lives have been impacted by the moment
in nineteen ninety seven. The memoriesthat we have can never be replaced.
Her mother said that quote, Wethe families, the survivors, and people
(27:37):
that were at the school, andthe whole community were given a life sentence
by the shooter and didn't have theopportunity to get a second chance, a
reduced sentence. We've missed Nicole's highschool graduation, her college graduation, her
wedding, her kids, our grandkids, and many birthdays and holidays together.
Nicole's older sister said that quote,Over the last twenty five years, I've
(27:59):
had to learn how to deal witha lot, and most people will never
understand what I've been through. Fromwhat I understand, I was the first
sibling to survive a school shooting whereI lost a sibling. For me,
it's not fair for him to beable to roam around with freedom when we
live in fear of where he mightbe. Nicole was given a life sentence,
Michael pleaded to a life sentence.I believe that he should have to
(28:22):
spend the rest of his life incarcerated. She pointed out that back in nineteen
ninety seven, Nicole had recently toldCarneal she wouldn't date him, and that
Nicole was the first to be killedby a bullet to the forehead, adding
that quote, Nicole did not agreewith how Michael treated people and the things
that he did, but because shewas so kind hearted, she was friends
with him. Michael was not akid who did not have friends, as
(28:45):
he's led people to believe. Ibelieve that Michael knew what he was doing.
The day of the shooting. Hefired eight shots and hit eight different
people, which in my eyes,is a very difficult task. Missy Jenkin
Smith, who was paralyzed from thechest down, went on to college and
became a social worker. She marriedher college sweetheart, started a family,
(29:07):
became an author and a public speaker, but it was difficult, she said,
adding that quote, I could speakfor hours about what my life has
been like, every minute of everyday the last quarter century. Without the
use of my legs, I havebeen sentenced to life without the possibility of
parole. After living the consequence ofMichael Carneal's decision, I'm forced to continue
(29:29):
with every day getting harder and harderas the years passed during my life sentence.
I will continue to serve out thatconsequence. Michael's decision for me will
be my entire life the future,and the fear of it haunts me.
Regarding Carneal's possible release, she saidquote, continuing his life in prison is
the only way his victims can feelcomfortable and safe without being haunted by what
(29:52):
ifs. Mister Carneal the eauly hedeserved an opportunity of parole today, I
don't know that all. I meanthat it depends on when you ask me.
Sometimes I think, you know thatI would just deserve to be killed,
you know. Sometimes I think thathonestly, and then other times I
think that due to the fact thatI could do good for a lot of
(30:17):
people, maybe that it would beit would be beneficial if I were released
someday. Following two days of testimonybefore a partial panel of Parole Board members,
they couldn't decide and put Carneal's ultimatefeat before a vote of the full
board the following week, on Septembertwenty sixth, two thousand and twenty two.
(30:41):
The seven member board could have votedto release him, told him to
come back at a later date,or ordered him to serve out his full
sentence of life incarceration, which iswhat they unanimously decided. Mister Carneal,
can you see and hear us?Okay? Yes? After deliberating, mister
Carneal to the seriousness of your crime, your crime involved a weapon, you
(31:03):
had lives taken, and the seriousnessagain, it is the decision of the
corroboard today to allow you to serveout the remainder of your sentence. Thank
you, sir. Yes. MichaelCarneil, now thirty nine years old,
is housed at the Kentucky State Reformatoryin Lagrange, Kentucky. His mother once
recalled how her cousin's kidney transplant helpedNicole Hadley want to become an organ donor.
(31:30):
One day, seeing that quote,my cousin came in once and I
introduced to them. Nicole said thatwhen she got her driver's license, she
wanted to sign it so that ifanything happened to her, her organs could
be donated, and they were makingit possible for her heart, lungs,
and more to give others life
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