April 4, 2025 • 36 mins
This week on Cruise Pioneers, Birgit Liodden is joined by Kaupo Läänerand, Estonia’s Deputy Minister for Maritime and Water Affairs. With over a decade of hands-on maritime experience and a background in managing the largest government-owned fleet in Estonia, Kaupo brings a unique, systems-level perspective to the future of ocean innovation.
Together, they explore Estonia’s bold leadership in maritime sustainability, digitalisation, and smart technologies—from AI integration in industry, to pioneering smart port and ship solutions. Kaupo shares how Estonia is power-coupling across the maritime value chain.
Addressing unresolved challenges of green retrofitting, digital bottlenecks, and cybersecurity—and how Estonia’s €25 million grant for green ship retrofits opens the door for cruise lines and startups to co-create radical solutions.
The episode highlights real opportunities for cruise lines and Estonian innovators to co-create solutions in areas like shore power, cybersecurity, and circular shipbuilding towards a sustainable future for cruise.
This podcast was brought to you by Trade Estonia and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Estonia. Funded by the European Union–NextGenerationEU.
Find out more at Visit Trade Estonia
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This podcast was brought to you by Trade Estonia and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Estonia.
About Trade Estonia: Trade Estonia connects enterprises to a dynamic, innovation-driven economy, providing access to global markets. Trade Estonia is part of Enterprise Estonia, a government extension connecting Estonian companies with business partners across the world. Trade Estonia also serves as a gateway for foreign enterprises seeking sourcing opportunities in Estonia, offering e-consulting services and facilitating connections with leading Estonian companies. Discover more at tradewithestonia.com
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>> Speaker A (00:00):
From sustainable ship design and retrofitting
to smart port technologies, Estonia
leads the way in maritime innovation
at Seatrade Trade Cruise Global Match to meet
Estonian companies that make the maritime industry
smarter or learn
more@tradewithestonia.com.
>> Birgit Liodden (00:22):
Welcome to the Cruise Pioneers podcast by
tool hosted on Seatrade Trade Cruise
Talks podcasts.
Hello, I'm Birgit Liodin, Sustainability
Ambassador of Seatrade Trade and founder of the Ocean
Opportunity Lab. In this new series we will dive
into the pioneering initiatives of cruise lines and
entrepreneurs who move and change the cruise
(00:45):
industry. We focus on real life frontrunner
initiatives and power couples enabling
crews to move from pollution to
solution. Get on board our shared expedition as
we get behind the scenes and explore
how owners, founders and top
executives move from vision to
deployment. Today I am so excited
(01:06):
to bring into our studio
Kaupo Lanrant, Estonia's Deputy
Minister for Maritime and Water affairs at the Ministry of
Climate. In his role he
oversees most of the blue economy sectors and water
management in Estonia. Mr.
Lannerand previously served as head of fleet for
the Estonian police on border guard board
(01:28):
where he managed the biggest government owned fleet.
He also has extensive knowledge of the maritime
industry from his experience working on board
tankers and the world's largest treasures for
more than a decade. So welcome to
us. I am so excited to start
our conversation talking about your
pioneer commitment.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (01:49):
Hello. Great to be here.
>> Birgit Liodden (01:51):
So the blue industries of Estonia has
really stepped up over these past years
and can you share with us a little bit both
from Estonia's national commitment
to sustainability and the pioneer role and include
a little bit of what makes you tick when it comes
to this area.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (02:09):
My role is actually to
be the let's say its most strategic position
for policymaking. So let's
say the Ministry of Climate where all
the maritime policy is let's say
made. It's placed somewhere where
the maritime sector meets with
university and also the
(02:32):
citizens needs meet with others.
So we are the place where everything comes
together. and as maritime nation Estonia has
been very sea focused for many
years and we
love the forest and we love the sea as well.
So we have a lot of companies
(02:53):
which has grown to be global and
average Estonian likes to
sail, they like to go on holiday near the sea
like everyone else. And of course our
winters are longer so we cannot compare
it to Florida, Florida winters. but
we are still a strong maritime nation and we
(03:14):
see our strength in strong
export and this is export of
knowledge. This is export of high quality
industry products and other types of
products. So we can from Estonian side we can
never compete with let's say South Korea for
building huge vessels but we are very
good at building vessels up to 70, 80
(03:36):
metres which are high level, highly
automated and highly, highly
digitalized. And you bring in the
numbers then Estonian blue economy is
responsible up to 5% of GDP, national
GDP which shows how big part it
plays from our economy.
And yeah this is maybe for start.
>> Birgit Liodden (03:58):
Yeah. And you're known as a country and a
maritime nation to be very tech savvy. And
then I wonder about the, the current progress when
we look at your, your targets from
Estonia. Can you mention if there are
specific areas when we look at the sustainable blue
shift where you are ahead of your
targets and are there any specific areas that
(04:20):
you have experienced to be challenging, representing
bottlenecks? And then of course I'm you know thinking
of this in also a
context.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (04:29):
Yes, challenges are definitely
there. when I first bring up the challenges
then for example we
are facing
European Union green deal requirements
which we have fuel, maritime EU, we have
maritime ETS for ships bigger than 5,000
cross tonnage. So we have those regulations, we have
(04:52):
IMO greenhouse gas strategy coming in and
we have national targets. So actually we have those three
sets of targets and to fulfil
those lot of investments are needed.
And one example is
that grid, electrical grid in the
ports, which a lot of people think that
okay we are building the ships to be on green
(05:14):
technology. So basically we just need to re
retrofit the vessels or build a new vessel. But
actually from our case the electrical grid
is challenged because it's
expensive work to do. And when you have, I don't
know in the ports where historically
you have five rope packs vessels, five cruise
vessels coming in and now you need to bring them
(05:36):
more on electricity than
this national electricity grid or this let's
say regional grid has never been developed
to, to bring all those massive ships
to electricity. So this is
definitely challenging. One is the
labour wars. we need better
(05:56):
prepared for green technology, better prepared crew
members of the ships. And definitely
the green
shift is or blue shift for
blue economy it's it's costing a lot for ship
owners. So for them it's also
challenging to push them to make the
first shift. but we have a Lot of initiatives,
(06:19):
and lot of pilot projects where as
government we are pushing the
maritime sector and supporting them or nudging
them, to choose the direction to reduce
emissions and increase the efficiency.
>> Birgit Liodden (06:32):
And I mean you tap directly into what
I see to be like the sore spot of
almost all the people that I talk with on this pod as
well. The access to clean energy
and the current grid capacity issues of
course is such a huge headache
for many actors out there. And then of
(06:53):
course that provides a very exciting
role for the innovators out there
all across the different parts of our industry.
And I know that your country has a great track
record on fueling the startup
ecosystem across different industries. And
I wanted to check in your perspectives on
what we call power couples where we look
(07:16):
at the high potential areas and the
exciting initiatives where large
organisations, public and private stakeholders
team up with smaller startups to
more radically tackle and solve
these key bottlenecks that we are
experiencing in our blue society.
(07:36):
So I wanted to hear where it is that you see
as specifically good and well
positioned areas for this power coupling
between startups and the large
stakeholders from Estonian perspective.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (07:49):
We have a lot of good examples in here. maybe I would
like to start. This was one of our initiatives from ministry
also that we have fairly new
Estonian Maritime Cluster. So Estonian
Maritime Cluster is let's say a little bit more than
one year old and it's
bringing together the maritime
companies, the big companies which are
(08:11):
making huge revenues and also the small
startups into the one system. And ID was
from the beginning to have big partner for government
that Estonian companies can join up in
export markets as well. And sometimes
smaller ones find through these kind
of communities like clusters they can meet each
(08:32):
other. So Estonian Maritime cluster has
around 60 members after one year as
companies and already with
around 2 billion euro of yearly
revenue. So they have grown growth, they
had very fast growth in the first year and
we look them to come together as
well and they already helped. They were
(08:55):
our partner with Estonian Retrofit
and greentech Hub. So basically
we are like industry, and government,
working closely and visionizing how
we can make the changes happen.
And together with them through Maritime
Cluster we have prepared this 25 million
(09:16):
euro retrofit measure so
to invite ships for example to
Estonian ports and use our
industry knowledge to retrofit the vessels.
And we pay back to the ship owners
15 to 30% of their investment. So this
is like those Shipowners who are
in between, it's a great chance for
(09:39):
them in between to making the investment decision.
This should be our nudging, to help
them to really retrofit the vessels to
new technologies. Other great example may
be how industry and big
players and smaller players are working together
is Port of Tallinn. between Helsink and
(09:59):
Tallinn we have this very ambitious green corridor.
I'm personally big believer of green corridors. I
think the green corridors are critical for
really decarbonizing the maritime industry because
you have to connect the dots because you cannot build
the infrastructure and all the fuels
everywhere. You have to start with green
corridors, tile in Helsinki. Then you go for tile in
(10:21):
Stockholm, then you have Stockholm, Helsinki Triangle.
Then you go for for example Rotterdam tiling,
green corridor and you start to connect those dots.
You have electricity availability,
methanol, something else.
So green corridors are bases. And what we did
is there was Estonian startup this time
startup. Now they are top three players called
(10:43):
Shorlink and Estonian.
Tallinn Port wanted to bring their
big rope vessels to
electricity and they needed
some supplier for those technologies. And there
was a startup called Shorlink who is visiting also the
US with delegation and they made the systems
ready. And now with this 10
(11:05):
million passenger traffic flow
port, now it's using those Shorelink
devices, ops, systems
and this helped the Shorelink also to grow
and now they are really producing
to Middle east, to
Europe, to across the world all those ops
systems and they went to the cruise industry. They
(11:28):
started to scale up their work. So this is great
example where this for example national
owned company, Port of Tallinn M. Let's say we
are as government 66% owner of this
port of Tallinn and how we can work
together and really the green technologies industry
can also grow. So a lot of, lot of the
(11:48):
great examples there. And this port
of Tallinn, it's maybe there is
smart port solution there used. I don't know. Have
you Birgit, have you visited port of Tallinn and used the
smart port? But in the past there was a lot of
people in the port showing where to go, you need to
wait in the queue. And now it's completely
(12:08):
automized. All the systems are interacting
with each other and you go to port, port, you almost
don't have any human interaction and you go
straight away to port the vessel. So
those are good examples how we can be more
efficient in all ways.
>> Birgit Liodden (12:24):
Yeah. So green corridors and
the tech revolution. Really. I
couldn't agree more with your points. I think both on
the green corridor as a
model for enabling this
transition, but also of course utilising the best
of new tech. Are there any other
especially interesting companies that you are bringing
(12:46):
over from Estonia this year?
>> Kaupo Lannerand (12:49):
Yeah, we have a
company called Inspirators and I
think one of their mottos was to take
away job from 20,000 engineers or
something. the idea was that actually they want
to free up those engineers. A lot of
engineers are doing work which could be done
by AI and machines.
(13:12):
so let's say easy, designs and
works and they are offering solutions
where you can really free up this
workforce and give engineers to do something
better. So they are coming as well. Port of
Tallinn is coming as I mentioned, Shorlink and
and we have this small mini
(13:32):
cluster called Emmy who has like full
value offer chain, to retrofit the vessels.
And I think they have very good value offer
for retrofitting cruise vessels because they have
like machine side cover, interior
side cover. and I think the
interior is very, let's say it's very
(13:53):
underestimated part of green transition.
To give you example, Estonian companies are looking the
ways, how to reduce emissions together with
cruise vessel owners and they actually have Estonia
Valley offered. We have possibility to
change the interior of cabins, for example
of cruise vessels and reduce the weight of the
(14:13):
cabin 200 kilos. So when you
have cruise vessels of 3,000 cabins,
you change it with new modern
materials and you can have
600 tonnes of less of weight which you are
carrying. So this 600 tonnes of weight
total with the 3,000 cabin retrofitting, of course
beautiful materials, you can also
(14:35):
reduce your emissions and this is important
for ship owners to fulfil the regulations. So
this is, I think what I mentioned is 25
million euro retrofit measurements coming out by
Estonia in April. Actually it should come out
in the time when I'm in US to bring ship
owners, to nurse the ship owners to be more green. This
(14:56):
retrofitting can be also part of the
works and maybe we have big
innovators coming in. They are called
src. When I was in Singapore
last week, they have already
confirmation from classification
societies that this technology is great.
So they are bringing into the US the
(15:16):
methanol super storage. So this
is this company actually has solved
one of the great challenges of retrofitting ships to
methanol we don't have capacity to build all the
new ships. We need to retrofit them. That's why we are putting
our ambitions to there. So what was
three pillars of methanol to bring
(15:36):
to retrofit the vessels to Metanov? One is to have
methanol engines. This is all the
methanol engines that are coming on the market.
the production will be growing. other
was fuel availability. Let's say
this, you need to have enough
clients and the investments will be there. This is
challenging part but you have to
(15:59):
most probably solve it through green
corridors through mutual
contracts. And the third was the
methanol takes three times more space than
fossil fuels to get same amount. So ship owner still wants
to voyage all those same distances. What they
did before, they need same amount of energy and the
problem is that with existing technologies they
(16:21):
can only get one third of the distance. So
SRC solved it and they have solution
as I mentioned called metal super storage.
And this solves everything
in this regard. So they can take same
amount of fuel energy on
board and take in all the methanol. And
(16:41):
why the methanol is important. I think
personally that methanol and ammonia
and electricity will be the main three big
players in the green fuels in the coming
years. So I hope
that all the companies visiting us
can learn more about them.
>> Birgit Liodden (17:01):
I think they have a lot of really interesting
pioneering initiatives from Estonia to look
into. And I really love the fact that you guys
focus so much on the retrofit part because of course and I think
you also coming from the industry yourself,
we can't really new build our way into
to solve this. so, so it's highly
interesting and also a great challenge for the
(17:24):
established stakeholder governments and for the small
startups to find these progressive new
solutions to work with. Circular economy and
different type of retrofits that will help our
industry really move through the right direction
and deliver both on national and
European continental ambitions.
(17:45):
And then I wanted to check in
with you because now you mentioned a
lot of the really great initiatives that you
have where there is a true power couple,
modus of operandis. So when we
work with these topics and I think you
touched briefly upon one of them with the sure
power thing. But we also ask our
(18:08):
guests to share with the audience a bit
about currently unresolved pain points
where we are looking for specific
additional area where you have these great
commitments and where you're really eager
to see the partnering of cruise
lines and entrepreneurs for new solutions
(18:28):
beyond those that are.
>> Speaker A (18:29):
Already based in Northern Europe.
Estonia is the gateway to responsible and
innovative maritime practises at Seatrade
Trade Cruise Global Match to meet Estonian
companies that drive maritime safety,
reduce emissions and make the maritime industry
smarter. Or learn
more@tradewithastonia.com.
>> Birgit Liodden (18:57):
Work in progress.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (18:59):
It's a great question and I
can reply with
with let's say challenge
and let's say the
points where we need to improve but also the
solution. So I am the person of solutions. So
let's open up the electrical grid was
(19:19):
challenged. So we are looking ways how to
support by government also
those investments and to support industry
for them to be more ready because the ports are also
different. Some ports are more
ambitions. Some ports are like okay we
can still go fossil for many years and
(19:41):
when the demand will be there. So so
some are thinking that the train they see
train already moving that but they don't start to run it.
So we tried to get them on board
as well. other was really to bring the companies
together. That was in the past problem and
this one I really took as my
(20:02):
really personal initiative to bring the maritime industry
together. So now we have maritime cluster and
we need to support them growing because we
are so small country. So to go
export and go with full value chain and to
offer the solutions then we need to work
together then the future labour
(20:23):
force. This is something where we try
to support industry and
universities as well. One of the things
from government side what I really see
that we talked about those old startups
growing and really conquering the
world. we have more than 10 unicorns
(20:43):
in Estonia most in it and
unicorn is more than 1 billion euro of companies.
so really I would like to see one of
them in maritime as well.
And the key word is pilot
projects by government or together with
industry. So that is why we are going
out with procurement to build new fully electric
(21:05):
ferry we are building
biomethane multipurpose vessel.
So those are the possibilities for companies
to get references as well to
really grow and learn. For example Estonia
built first a hybrid petrol vessel in the
past. So usually
(21:25):
everybody are focusing to other sectors and
about pilot projects. What is one of the
key ambitions? we have a lot of companies like
Mindchip who was together with me in Singapore as well
who are building those autonomous vessels
and Their aim is to take away the work
from the people when you don't actually need the people.
So in the maritime you need to, for example you need
(21:48):
to survey your sea area all the time.
We are doing it with huge
manned vessels who are using for example
fossil fuels. So our ambitions by
government, again with pilot projects, is to build
a fleet of survey vessels, autonomous small
survey vessels and you can have them 10 in line
to working like in the lines and making the
(22:11):
survey work much more efficient, less
emissions and more cost effective.
So all kind of these projects are
needed to help. And the other
is our aim was again the problem
was we don't know so much what's going around in the
water. So we are also
together with industry, making Seawolf
(22:33):
project where we want to create maritime digital
twin so we can understand what is happening
under the water, top of the water. This can be security,
this can be environment, this can be all
the systems together. So we are developing this one
as well. Again this is great chance
for pilot projects, great chance for references
(22:54):
and let's see how it ends
up. because there are sensors there, you
know, you can detect oil. we
have big oil threat in the Baltic Seatrade with the Shadow
fleet and all the substandard fleet.
And they can really help us to detect the oil
and react faster, get the evidence.
and scientists in the future, they don't have
(23:16):
to go and take the examples
of the water in exact time. They
can get the peak data all the time. So
pilot projects is key I think to
really make the changes happen from my
side. And of course one of the things
what I really look into is offshore wind.
(23:37):
One moment offshore wind
was the direction, other moment a lot of
critics on offshore wind. So now
again they talk about offshore wind. I can say
certain, I'm big believer of offshore wind. We
have 9 gigawatts of potential in here in our
sea area. So this would be great
chance for ship fuels to be developed and
(24:00):
use this, all this excess energy to
really make those fuels for shipping as well. So
I hope this one goes well ahead as well.
>> Birgit Liodden (24:08):
Absolutely. And I just have to ask, first of all,
I have to applaud you for the amazing
initiatives that you're doing in your role for the government.
And then I also wonder, circling back to
the, to the grid issue and alternative
new energy sources. Are you also looking into
any other ways of expanding your
(24:29):
grid Capacity with what we call more breathing
grid structures and finding other innovative
solutions to gain energy from the
ocean to support the capacity issues in the
ports.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (24:42):
Yeah, M. I can tell you that
the forerunner ports are they are
using already solar panels and
smaller ports as well. This is going up the
use of solar energy, wind energy.
We have one big project for one of our biggest
ports to use this, to get the heat and
(25:03):
also the cooling from the seawater.
So those are expensive projects and it's bringing again
new challenges because our sea
floor, one side we have electrical grids, then we
have all those pipes in the seafloor. So this will bring
us new challenges and you need to get them working
together. So we are harnessing that. We
(25:23):
are harnessing a lot of offshore energy in the future.
But because the tides in Estonia are not so
high, so tidal energy is not in the
topic. We have a lot of bad weather,
so we should use more wave energy.
But this is not, let's say not in the
focus at the moment. I really see that
this wave energy we are looking into these
(25:46):
smart floating platforms which are part
of the Seawolf system, what I mentioned. So
I have seen the solutions where the wave
energy is loading the batteries
on board of the systems at sea. If this really
works, I will be interesting to know it more.
But, but yeah, at the moment
(26:06):
those are the main directions.
>> Birgit Liodden (26:08):
Yeah, I mean the wave energy has been, you know,
under, under invested and still early.
But I think for all of us who are really ocean
nerds, it's such a
magical perspective to, to look at. Like
when and how will we truly be able to take
out all of the boundless,
amounts of energy from the waves that we're sailing
(26:29):
on. And then of course you touched upon
it, in the whole perspective of
digitization and efficiency. We
are facing as an industry both now
and for the time ahead, a huge
shortage of the access to talents because
we, we compete with so many other
industries and very many young
(26:52):
people and experts out there don't
necessarily look to the ocean and maritime sector and
cruise when they are making their career
moves. personally I have a huge
belief in when we bring in clean
energy transition, when we bring in innovators,
kind of new faces and new role
models and more exciting
(27:14):
solutions that are brought out to younger people
out there that will also help making an
impact. While we'll also have to find smart
solutions so that we can utilise people
and their capacities better than what we have done.
But we have our last last
insight that we ask from, from all of our guests
(27:34):
that is focusing on tomorrow's talents today. And I know
you guys are working a lot on this because we
do need so many great people and brains
and hands on board with us to build this future of
cruise. And I would love to
hear if you can share your personal
hack or advice to talents who
are listening in existing industry colleagues.
(27:57):
what do you see as ah kind of
capabilities and skill sets that
is truly needed to be part of building
this cruise. Pioneers and the
sustainable clean transition of the maritime sector
onwards.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (28:11):
This challenge is hard because we all face
it especially while the welfare is very
good, especially those countries. And they are fulfilling the
gap with at the moment around the world with getting
the talents from other countries.
but there has to
be other solution for that. And
(28:32):
it's like always in the life the answer
lies in a combination of different things. What
we need to do. One of the ways
to bring in more talents still bring them
into the maritime industry. I think it's
clear career path and potential.
So at the moment for example a lot of tech officers,
(28:53):
engineers, electronical officers, a lot
of them don't want to go to, to the sea anymore. Actually
they would like to sail 10 to
20 years but they see that they
cannot. They don't want to work there until end of the
day. So one of the ways
is really to show them
(29:13):
if they go to learn in academy then
they see that there are let's say two
career options or three career options. When
they, when they study they already prepare
to work ashore as well that they always know
that the knowledge and the
diploma what they get they will. It helps for
them if they want to come to work ashore. There
(29:35):
is clear I don't know two, three
scenarios where they can be technical
management. They can really go
for green technologies industries. So this
is really important because I'm myself with tech
officer background. I never planned to come to work
as vice ministers as well. So
this just happened like That so
(29:57):
they need to know more about that. Second
is to catch them as young as possible.
It's hard to get somebody to love sea
and waves and when they are already
18 years old. We need to catch them earlier.
So that is why our focus
are. We have around 237
(30:18):
ports in Estonia. Most of them are smaller one as
well. So One of the things what we are doing
and solution for that as well is to
bring young people to ports. Is it
recreational activities, trainings, is it sailing?
Is it somebody some other hobbies to
get them to the port and get them
to involve their hobbies
(30:40):
which is part of the maritime. And
we need to infect them with maritime.
Exactly. as early as possible.
>> Birgit Liodden (30:49):
So this is basically
racing and growing ocean lovers.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (30:55):
Yes. So get them as
young as possible to the port,
provide potential, bring them
in and these are the ways definitely do
it. And the maritime industry imago
and the great
potential behind it because what I have in
my role has done also that
(31:17):
When I came to the ministry it seems like
everybody talked that it's you know maritime
industry or maritime sector. Generally it's ship
and port but this is much more. It's
about growing the seaweed. It's
recreational activities. It's offshore
wind, we don't know, maybe it's even
(31:38):
mining in the future. it's all the IT
solutions for maritime all those
green technology producers. Shipbuilding
retrofitting is completely
other parallel world of shipbuilding.
So there are so many, it's so
wide part of our economies especially maritime
nations that to really to make them understand
(32:00):
that into how big ecosystem they are
entering if they are choosing the maritime. So
this awareness of the scale
of it as well.
>> Birgit Liodden (32:10):
Oh I definitely agree with you And I think
your journey as well is so interesting. To move from like
a clear red sea and a deck of officer and then
becoming a vice minister. I think that's also something that
really shows the opportunity space out
there. And based on your own journey,
Kaupo, what do you think has been kind of
the personal
(32:32):
skill in you that has
enabled this really exciting
journey that could be inspiration for
younger talents out there.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (32:43):
What drives me? I don't know. People have to
find what drives them. Somebody are doing it for money,
somebody is doing for the hobby.
If the hobby is the work. I know a lot of people in our
industry who is. It's like hobby their work. So this
is the best solution. One of the most
interesting also when I was head of coast car fleet
this was very interesting time as well.
(33:06):
I received huge in this crazy
geopolitical world where we are living at the moment,
and so many things happening around the world. So I
think it's great that I worked one moment in my life as
head of CoastCorflight because this really helps to
prepare for the crisis as well, but for
me, I think that what drives me the
most and people have to find
(33:28):
it, is, to make big
changes happen. So I really, I
enjoy. Is it consolidation of government
on fleet or big initiatives, so
really that you can sit on the couch 20 years
later, drink your coffee, and think
that I have made, together with my team and together,
maritime sector, some big changes happen. So this is
(33:51):
what drives me.
>> Birgit Liodden (33:52):
I think that's a great end to our
conversation today. And, I'm really looking
forward to catch up and, really
explore all of the amazing stakeholders that are
gathered from Estonia for sea trade.
And thank you so much for taking the time to
sit in with us today. And, let's stay tuned
(34:12):
on all of the exciting stuff going on from the
Estonian maritime sector. So thank you.
From sustainable ship design and retrofitting
to smart port technologies, Estonia
leads the way in maritime innovation
at Seatrade Trade Cruise Global Match to meet
Estonian companies that make the maritime industry
smarter or learn
more@tradewithestonia.com.
>> Birgit Liodden (00:22):
Welcome to the Cruise Pioneers podcast by
tool hosted on Seatrade Trade Cruise
Talks podcasts.
Hello, I'm Birgit Liodin, Sustainability
Ambassador of Seatrade Trade and founder of the Ocean
Opportunity Lab. In this new series we will dive
into the pioneering initiatives of cruise lines and
entrepreneurs who move and change the cruise
(00:45):
industry. We focus on real life frontrunner
initiatives and power couples enabling
crews to move from pollution to
solution. Get on board our shared expedition as
we get behind the scenes and explore
how owners, founders and top
executives move from vision to
deployment. Today I am so excited
(01:06):
to bring into our studio
Kaupo Lanrant, Estonia's Deputy
Minister for Maritime and Water affairs at the Ministry of
Climate. In his role he
oversees most of the blue economy sectors and water
management in Estonia. Mr.
Lannerand previously served as head of fleet for
the Estonian police on border guard board
(01:28):
where he managed the biggest government owned fleet.
He also has extensive knowledge of the maritime
industry from his experience working on board
tankers and the world's largest treasures for
more than a decade. So welcome to
us. I am so excited to start
our conversation talking about your
pioneer commitment.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (01:49):
Hello. Great to be here.
>> Birgit Liodden (01:51):
So the blue industries of Estonia has
really stepped up over these past years
and can you share with us a little bit both
from Estonia's national commitment
to sustainability and the pioneer role and include
a little bit of what makes you tick when it comes
to this area.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (02:09):
My role is actually to
be the let's say its most strategic position
for policymaking. So let's
say the Ministry of Climate where all
the maritime policy is let's say
made. It's placed somewhere where
the maritime sector meets with
university and also the
(02:32):
citizens needs meet with others.
So we are the place where everything comes
together. and as maritime nation Estonia has
been very sea focused for many
years and we
love the forest and we love the sea as well.
So we have a lot of companies
(02:53):
which has grown to be global and
average Estonian likes to
sail, they like to go on holiday near the sea
like everyone else. And of course our
winters are longer so we cannot compare
it to Florida, Florida winters. but
we are still a strong maritime nation and we
(03:14):
see our strength in strong
export and this is export of
knowledge. This is export of high quality
industry products and other types of
products. So we can from Estonian side we can
never compete with let's say South Korea for
building huge vessels but we are very
good at building vessels up to 70, 80
(03:36):
metres which are high level, highly
automated and highly, highly
digitalized. And you bring in the
numbers then Estonian blue economy is
responsible up to 5% of GDP, national
GDP which shows how big part it
plays from our economy.
And yeah this is maybe for start.
>> Birgit Liodden (03:58):
Yeah. And you're known as a country and a
maritime nation to be very tech savvy. And
then I wonder about the, the current progress when
we look at your, your targets from
Estonia. Can you mention if there are
specific areas when we look at the sustainable blue
shift where you are ahead of your
targets and are there any specific areas that
(04:20):
you have experienced to be challenging, representing
bottlenecks? And then of course I'm you know thinking
of this in also a
context.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (04:29):
Yes, challenges are definitely
there. when I first bring up the challenges
then for example we
are facing
European Union green deal requirements
which we have fuel, maritime EU, we have
maritime ETS for ships bigger than 5,000
cross tonnage. So we have those regulations, we have
(04:52):
IMO greenhouse gas strategy coming in and
we have national targets. So actually we have those three
sets of targets and to fulfil
those lot of investments are needed.
And one example is
that grid, electrical grid in the
ports, which a lot of people think that
okay we are building the ships to be on green
(05:14):
technology. So basically we just need to re
retrofit the vessels or build a new vessel. But
actually from our case the electrical grid
is challenged because it's
expensive work to do. And when you have, I don't
know in the ports where historically
you have five rope packs vessels, five cruise
vessels coming in and now you need to bring them
(05:36):
more on electricity than
this national electricity grid or this let's
say regional grid has never been developed
to, to bring all those massive ships
to electricity. So this is
definitely challenging. One is the
labour wars. we need better
(05:56):
prepared for green technology, better prepared crew
members of the ships. And definitely
the green
shift is or blue shift for
blue economy it's it's costing a lot for ship
owners. So for them it's also
challenging to push them to make the
first shift. but we have a Lot of initiatives,
(06:19):
and lot of pilot projects where as
government we are pushing the
maritime sector and supporting them or nudging
them, to choose the direction to reduce
emissions and increase the efficiency.
>> Birgit Liodden (06:32):
And I mean you tap directly into what
I see to be like the sore spot of
almost all the people that I talk with on this pod as
well. The access to clean energy
and the current grid capacity issues of
course is such a huge headache
for many actors out there. And then of
(06:53):
course that provides a very exciting
role for the innovators out there
all across the different parts of our industry.
And I know that your country has a great track
record on fueling the startup
ecosystem across different industries. And
I wanted to check in your perspectives on
what we call power couples where we look
(07:16):
at the high potential areas and the
exciting initiatives where large
organisations, public and private stakeholders
team up with smaller startups to
more radically tackle and solve
these key bottlenecks that we are
experiencing in our blue society.
(07:36):
So I wanted to hear where it is that you see
as specifically good and well
positioned areas for this power coupling
between startups and the large
stakeholders from Estonian perspective.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (07:49):
We have a lot of good examples in here. maybe I would
like to start. This was one of our initiatives from ministry
also that we have fairly new
Estonian Maritime Cluster. So Estonian
Maritime Cluster is let's say a little bit more than
one year old and it's
bringing together the maritime
companies, the big companies which are
(08:11):
making huge revenues and also the small
startups into the one system. And ID was
from the beginning to have big partner for government
that Estonian companies can join up in
export markets as well. And sometimes
smaller ones find through these kind
of communities like clusters they can meet each
(08:32):
other. So Estonian Maritime cluster has
around 60 members after one year as
companies and already with
around 2 billion euro of yearly
revenue. So they have grown growth, they
had very fast growth in the first year and
we look them to come together as
well and they already helped. They were
(08:55):
our partner with Estonian Retrofit
and greentech Hub. So basically
we are like industry, and government,
working closely and visionizing how
we can make the changes happen.
And together with them through Maritime
Cluster we have prepared this 25 million
(09:16):
euro retrofit measure so
to invite ships for example to
Estonian ports and use our
industry knowledge to retrofit the vessels.
And we pay back to the ship owners
15 to 30% of their investment. So this
is like those Shipowners who are
in between, it's a great chance for
(09:39):
them in between to making the investment decision.
This should be our nudging, to help
them to really retrofit the vessels to
new technologies. Other great example may
be how industry and big
players and smaller players are working together
is Port of Tallinn. between Helsink and
(09:59):
Tallinn we have this very ambitious green corridor.
I'm personally big believer of green corridors. I
think the green corridors are critical for
really decarbonizing the maritime industry because
you have to connect the dots because you cannot build
the infrastructure and all the fuels
everywhere. You have to start with green
corridors, tile in Helsinki. Then you go for tile in
(10:21):
Stockholm, then you have Stockholm, Helsinki Triangle.
Then you go for for example Rotterdam tiling,
green corridor and you start to connect those dots.
You have electricity availability,
methanol, something else.
So green corridors are bases. And what we did
is there was Estonian startup this time
startup. Now they are top three players called
(10:43):
Shorlink and Estonian.
Tallinn Port wanted to bring their
big rope vessels to
electricity and they needed
some supplier for those technologies. And there
was a startup called Shorlink who is visiting also the
US with delegation and they made the systems
ready. And now with this 10
(11:05):
million passenger traffic flow
port, now it's using those Shorelink
devices, ops, systems
and this helped the Shorelink also to grow
and now they are really producing
to Middle east, to
Europe, to across the world all those ops
systems and they went to the cruise industry. They
(11:28):
started to scale up their work. So this is great
example where this for example national
owned company, Port of Tallinn M. Let's say we
are as government 66% owner of this
port of Tallinn and how we can work
together and really the green technologies industry
can also grow. So a lot of, lot of the
(11:48):
great examples there. And this port
of Tallinn, it's maybe there is
smart port solution there used. I don't know. Have
you Birgit, have you visited port of Tallinn and used the
smart port? But in the past there was a lot of
people in the port showing where to go, you need to
wait in the queue. And now it's completely
(12:08):
automized. All the systems are interacting
with each other and you go to port, port, you almost
don't have any human interaction and you go
straight away to port the vessel. So
those are good examples how we can be more
efficient in all ways.
>> Birgit Liodden (12:24):
Yeah. So green corridors and
the tech revolution. Really. I
couldn't agree more with your points. I think both on
the green corridor as a
model for enabling this
transition, but also of course utilising the best
of new tech. Are there any other
especially interesting companies that you are bringing
(12:46):
over from Estonia this year?
>> Kaupo Lannerand (12:49):
Yeah, we have a
company called Inspirators and I
think one of their mottos was to take
away job from 20,000 engineers or
something. the idea was that actually they want
to free up those engineers. A lot of
engineers are doing work which could be done
by AI and machines.
(13:12):
so let's say easy, designs and
works and they are offering solutions
where you can really free up this
workforce and give engineers to do something
better. So they are coming as well. Port of
Tallinn is coming as I mentioned, Shorlink and
and we have this small mini
(13:32):
cluster called Emmy who has like full
value offer chain, to retrofit the vessels.
And I think they have very good value offer
for retrofitting cruise vessels because they have
like machine side cover, interior
side cover. and I think the
interior is very, let's say it's very
(13:53):
underestimated part of green transition.
To give you example, Estonian companies are looking the
ways, how to reduce emissions together with
cruise vessel owners and they actually have Estonia
Valley offered. We have possibility to
change the interior of cabins, for example
of cruise vessels and reduce the weight of the
(14:13):
cabin 200 kilos. So when you
have cruise vessels of 3,000 cabins,
you change it with new modern
materials and you can have
600 tonnes of less of weight which you are
carrying. So this 600 tonnes of weight
total with the 3,000 cabin retrofitting, of course
beautiful materials, you can also
(14:35):
reduce your emissions and this is important
for ship owners to fulfil the regulations. So
this is, I think what I mentioned is 25
million euro retrofit measurements coming out by
Estonia in April. Actually it should come out
in the time when I'm in US to bring ship
owners, to nurse the ship owners to be more green. This
(14:56):
retrofitting can be also part of the
works and maybe we have big
innovators coming in. They are called
src. When I was in Singapore
last week, they have already
confirmation from classification
societies that this technology is great.
So they are bringing into the US the
(15:16):
methanol super storage. So this
is this company actually has solved
one of the great challenges of retrofitting ships to
methanol we don't have capacity to build all the
new ships. We need to retrofit them. That's why we are putting
our ambitions to there. So what was
three pillars of methanol to bring
(15:36):
to retrofit the vessels to Metanov? One is to have
methanol engines. This is all the
methanol engines that are coming on the market.
the production will be growing. other
was fuel availability. Let's say
this, you need to have enough
clients and the investments will be there. This is
challenging part but you have to
(15:59):
most probably solve it through green
corridors through mutual
contracts. And the third was the
methanol takes three times more space than
fossil fuels to get same amount. So ship owner still wants
to voyage all those same distances. What they
did before, they need same amount of energy and the
problem is that with existing technologies they
(16:21):
can only get one third of the distance. So
SRC solved it and they have solution
as I mentioned called metal super storage.
And this solves everything
in this regard. So they can take same
amount of fuel energy on
board and take in all the methanol. And
(16:41):
why the methanol is important. I think
personally that methanol and ammonia
and electricity will be the main three big
players in the green fuels in the coming
years. So I hope
that all the companies visiting us
can learn more about them.
>> Birgit Liodden (17:01):
I think they have a lot of really interesting
pioneering initiatives from Estonia to look
into. And I really love the fact that you guys
focus so much on the retrofit part because of course and I think
you also coming from the industry yourself,
we can't really new build our way into
to solve this. so, so it's highly
interesting and also a great challenge for the
(17:24):
established stakeholder governments and for the small
startups to find these progressive new
solutions to work with. Circular economy and
different type of retrofits that will help our
industry really move through the right direction
and deliver both on national and
European continental ambitions.
(17:45):
And then I wanted to check in
with you because now you mentioned a
lot of the really great initiatives that you
have where there is a true power couple,
modus of operandis. So when we
work with these topics and I think you
touched briefly upon one of them with the sure
power thing. But we also ask our
(18:08):
guests to share with the audience a bit
about currently unresolved pain points
where we are looking for specific
additional area where you have these great
commitments and where you're really eager
to see the partnering of cruise
lines and entrepreneurs for new solutions
(18:28):
beyond those that are.
>> Speaker A (18:29):
Already based in Northern Europe.
Estonia is the gateway to responsible and
innovative maritime practises at Seatrade
Trade Cruise Global Match to meet Estonian
companies that drive maritime safety,
reduce emissions and make the maritime industry
smarter. Or learn
more@tradewithastonia.com.
>> Birgit Liodden (18:57):
Work in progress.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (18:59):
It's a great question and I
can reply with
with let's say challenge
and let's say the
points where we need to improve but also the
solution. So I am the person of solutions. So
let's open up the electrical grid was
(19:19):
challenged. So we are looking ways how to
support by government also
those investments and to support industry
for them to be more ready because the ports are also
different. Some ports are more
ambitions. Some ports are like okay we
can still go fossil for many years and
(19:41):
when the demand will be there. So so
some are thinking that the train they see
train already moving that but they don't start to run it.
So we tried to get them on board
as well. other was really to bring the companies
together. That was in the past problem and
this one I really took as my
(20:02):
really personal initiative to bring the maritime industry
together. So now we have maritime cluster and
we need to support them growing because we
are so small country. So to go
export and go with full value chain and to
offer the solutions then we need to work
together then the future labour
(20:23):
force. This is something where we try
to support industry and
universities as well. One of the things
from government side what I really see
that we talked about those old startups
growing and really conquering the
world. we have more than 10 unicorns
(20:43):
in Estonia most in it and
unicorn is more than 1 billion euro of companies.
so really I would like to see one of
them in maritime as well.
And the key word is pilot
projects by government or together with
industry. So that is why we are going
out with procurement to build new fully electric
(21:05):
ferry we are building
biomethane multipurpose vessel.
So those are the possibilities for companies
to get references as well to
really grow and learn. For example Estonia
built first a hybrid petrol vessel in the
past. So usually
(21:25):
everybody are focusing to other sectors and
about pilot projects. What is one of the
key ambitions? we have a lot of companies like
Mindchip who was together with me in Singapore as well
who are building those autonomous vessels
and Their aim is to take away the work
from the people when you don't actually need the people.
So in the maritime you need to, for example you need
(21:48):
to survey your sea area all the time.
We are doing it with huge
manned vessels who are using for example
fossil fuels. So our ambitions by
government, again with pilot projects, is to build
a fleet of survey vessels, autonomous small
survey vessels and you can have them 10 in line
to working like in the lines and making the
(22:11):
survey work much more efficient, less
emissions and more cost effective.
So all kind of these projects are
needed to help. And the other
is our aim was again the problem
was we don't know so much what's going around in the
water. So we are also
together with industry, making Seawolf
(22:33):
project where we want to create maritime digital
twin so we can understand what is happening
under the water, top of the water. This can be security,
this can be environment, this can be all
the systems together. So we are developing this one
as well. Again this is great chance
for pilot projects, great chance for references
(22:54):
and let's see how it ends
up. because there are sensors there, you
know, you can detect oil. we
have big oil threat in the Baltic Seatrade with the Shadow
fleet and all the substandard fleet.
And they can really help us to detect the oil
and react faster, get the evidence.
and scientists in the future, they don't have
(23:16):
to go and take the examples
of the water in exact time. They
can get the peak data all the time. So
pilot projects is key I think to
really make the changes happen from my
side. And of course one of the things
what I really look into is offshore wind.
(23:37):
One moment offshore wind
was the direction, other moment a lot of
critics on offshore wind. So now
again they talk about offshore wind. I can say
certain, I'm big believer of offshore wind. We
have 9 gigawatts of potential in here in our
sea area. So this would be great
chance for ship fuels to be developed and
(24:00):
use this, all this excess energy to
really make those fuels for shipping as well. So
I hope this one goes well ahead as well.
>> Birgit Liodden (24:08):
Absolutely. And I just have to ask, first of all,
I have to applaud you for the amazing
initiatives that you're doing in your role for the government.
And then I also wonder, circling back to
the, to the grid issue and alternative
new energy sources. Are you also looking into
any other ways of expanding your
(24:29):
grid Capacity with what we call more breathing
grid structures and finding other innovative
solutions to gain energy from the
ocean to support the capacity issues in the
ports.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (24:42):
Yeah, M. I can tell you that
the forerunner ports are they are
using already solar panels and
smaller ports as well. This is going up the
use of solar energy, wind energy.
We have one big project for one of our biggest
ports to use this, to get the heat and
(25:03):
also the cooling from the seawater.
So those are expensive projects and it's bringing again
new challenges because our sea
floor, one side we have electrical grids, then we
have all those pipes in the seafloor. So this will bring
us new challenges and you need to get them working
together. So we are harnessing that. We
(25:23):
are harnessing a lot of offshore energy in the future.
But because the tides in Estonia are not so
high, so tidal energy is not in the
topic. We have a lot of bad weather,
so we should use more wave energy.
But this is not, let's say not in the
focus at the moment. I really see that
this wave energy we are looking into these
(25:46):
smart floating platforms which are part
of the Seawolf system, what I mentioned. So
I have seen the solutions where the wave
energy is loading the batteries
on board of the systems at sea. If this really
works, I will be interesting to know it more.
But, but yeah, at the moment
(26:06):
those are the main directions.
>> Birgit Liodden (26:08):
Yeah, I mean the wave energy has been, you know,
under, under invested and still early.
But I think for all of us who are really ocean
nerds, it's such a
magical perspective to, to look at. Like
when and how will we truly be able to take
out all of the boundless,
amounts of energy from the waves that we're sailing
(26:29):
on. And then of course you touched upon
it, in the whole perspective of
digitization and efficiency. We
are facing as an industry both now
and for the time ahead, a huge
shortage of the access to talents because
we, we compete with so many other
industries and very many young
(26:52):
people and experts out there don't
necessarily look to the ocean and maritime sector and
cruise when they are making their career
moves. personally I have a huge
belief in when we bring in clean
energy transition, when we bring in innovators,
kind of new faces and new role
models and more exciting
(27:14):
solutions that are brought out to younger people
out there that will also help making an
impact. While we'll also have to find smart
solutions so that we can utilise people
and their capacities better than what we have done.
But we have our last last
insight that we ask from, from all of our guests
(27:34):
that is focusing on tomorrow's talents today. And I know
you guys are working a lot on this because we
do need so many great people and brains
and hands on board with us to build this future of
cruise. And I would love to
hear if you can share your personal
hack or advice to talents who
are listening in existing industry colleagues.
(27:57):
what do you see as ah kind of
capabilities and skill sets that
is truly needed to be part of building
this cruise. Pioneers and the
sustainable clean transition of the maritime sector
onwards.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (28:11):
This challenge is hard because we all face
it especially while the welfare is very
good, especially those countries. And they are fulfilling the
gap with at the moment around the world with getting
the talents from other countries.
but there has to
be other solution for that. And
(28:32):
it's like always in the life the answer
lies in a combination of different things. What
we need to do. One of the ways
to bring in more talents still bring them
into the maritime industry. I think it's
clear career path and potential.
So at the moment for example a lot of tech officers,
(28:53):
engineers, electronical officers, a lot
of them don't want to go to, to the sea anymore. Actually
they would like to sail 10 to
20 years but they see that they
cannot. They don't want to work there until end of the
day. So one of the ways
is really to show them
(29:13):
if they go to learn in academy then
they see that there are let's say two
career options or three career options. When
they, when they study they already prepare
to work ashore as well that they always know
that the knowledge and the
diploma what they get they will. It helps for
them if they want to come to work ashore. There
(29:35):
is clear I don't know two, three
scenarios where they can be technical
management. They can really go
for green technologies industries. So this
is really important because I'm myself with tech
officer background. I never planned to come to work
as vice ministers as well. So
this just happened like That so
(29:57):
they need to know more about that. Second
is to catch them as young as possible.
It's hard to get somebody to love sea
and waves and when they are already
18 years old. We need to catch them earlier.
So that is why our focus
are. We have around 237
(30:18):
ports in Estonia. Most of them are smaller one as
well. So One of the things what we are doing
and solution for that as well is to
bring young people to ports. Is it
recreational activities, trainings, is it sailing?
Is it somebody some other hobbies to
get them to the port and get them
to involve their hobbies
(30:40):
which is part of the maritime. And
we need to infect them with maritime.
Exactly. as early as possible.
>> Birgit Liodden (30:49):
So this is basically
racing and growing ocean lovers.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (30:55):
Yes. So get them as
young as possible to the port,
provide potential, bring them
in and these are the ways definitely do
it. And the maritime industry imago
and the great
potential behind it because what I have in
my role has done also that
(31:17):
When I came to the ministry it seems like
everybody talked that it's you know maritime
industry or maritime sector. Generally it's ship
and port but this is much more. It's
about growing the seaweed. It's
recreational activities. It's offshore
wind, we don't know, maybe it's even
(31:38):
mining in the future. it's all the IT
solutions for maritime all those
green technology producers. Shipbuilding
retrofitting is completely
other parallel world of shipbuilding.
So there are so many, it's so
wide part of our economies especially maritime
nations that to really to make them understand
(32:00):
that into how big ecosystem they are
entering if they are choosing the maritime. So
this awareness of the scale
of it as well.
>> Birgit Liodden (32:10):
Oh I definitely agree with you And I think
your journey as well is so interesting. To move from like
a clear red sea and a deck of officer and then
becoming a vice minister. I think that's also something that
really shows the opportunity space out
there. And based on your own journey,
Kaupo, what do you think has been kind of
the personal
(32:32):
skill in you that has
enabled this really exciting
journey that could be inspiration for
younger talents out there.
>> Kaupo Lannerand (32:43):
What drives me? I don't know. People have to
find what drives them. Somebody are doing it for money,
somebody is doing for the hobby.
If the hobby is the work. I know a lot of people in our
industry who is. It's like hobby their work. So this
is the best solution. One of the most
interesting also when I was head of coast car fleet
this was very interesting time as well.
(33:06):
I received huge in this crazy
geopolitical world where we are living at the moment,
and so many things happening around the world. So I
think it's great that I worked one moment in my life as
head of CoastCorflight because this really helps to
prepare for the crisis as well, but for
me, I think that what drives me the
most and people have to find
(33:28):
it, is, to make big
changes happen. So I really, I
enjoy. Is it consolidation of government
on fleet or big initiatives, so
really that you can sit on the couch 20 years
later, drink your coffee, and think
that I have made, together with my team and together,
maritime sector, some big changes happen. So this is
(33:51):
what drives me.
>> Birgit Liodden (33:52):
I think that's a great end to our
conversation today. And, I'm really looking
forward to catch up and, really
explore all of the amazing stakeholders that are
gathered from Estonia for sea trade.
And thank you so much for taking the time to
sit in with us today. And, let's stay tuned
(34:12):
on all of the exciting stuff going on from the
Estonian maritime sector. So thank you.
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