March 13, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of Cruise Pioneers, host Birgit Liodden dives into one of the most pressing challenges facing the cruise industry—carbon capture. With ambitious net-zero targets set for the industry, how can the sector leverage ocean-based carbon sequestration to turn the tide on emissions?
Joining Birgit are three pioneering innovators at the forefront of carbon capture technology:
- Chase Dwyer, Founder & CEO, Carbon Ridge
- Michael Walker, CEO, STAX Engineering
- Dr. Nathan Walworth, Founder & CEO, Scape
Together, they explore the potential of carbon sequestration hubs at ports, scaling natural ocean cycles into industrialised solutions. Through a value-chain perspective, our guests share the potential of their collaboration to enable stakeholders to capture, transport, and store carbon—paving the way for a future-proof, net-zero industry.
Tune in for a forward-thinking conversation on the technological breakthroughs for carbon capture amidst the evolving regulatory landscape.
Mentioned in this episode:
TOOL's Cruise Innovators
Explore a world of Cruise Innovators, and nominate your favorite startup! community.toolspawn.com For Seatrade Global 40th anniversary in 2025, we will also prepare the very first edition of TOOL´s Cruise Innovators - a global overview of startups & innovators with enabling solutions for cruise. Welcome onboard our voyage into the future - and join the wave! Sign up today - community.toolspawn.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Birgit Liodden (00:01):
Welcome to the Cruise Pioneers podcast by
tool hosted on Seatrade Cruise Talks
podcasts.
Hello, I'm Birgit Liadin, Sustainability ambassador
of Seatrade Trade and founder of the Ocean Opportunity
Lab. In this new series we will dive into the
pioneering initiatives of cruise lines and entrepreneurs
(00:21):
who move and change the cruise industry. We focus
on real life frontrunner initiatives and power
couples enabling crews to move
from pollution to solution. Get on board our
shared expedition as we get behind the scenes
and explore how owners, founders and
top executives move from vision to
deployment. In today's episode we
(00:44):
explore the topic and concept of carbon
sequestration using the ocean's
natural sequestration cycle but
industrialising it. We explore the
potentials for carbon sequestration hubs at
ports and its potential for supporting the cruise
industry in solving the carbon removal
(01:04):
issue. Pre 2030we explore
this through a value chain perspective
with three innovators circled
around Scape and looking at
how actors can capture carbon and
deliver it to scape. So with me in
studio today we have Dr. Nathan
Wolworth, who is an entrepreneurial climate
(01:26):
scientist and adjunct professor who has studied the
marine carbon cycle for 15 years from the
tropics to Antarctica. He stepped into
climate entrepreneurships 10 years ago as
part of several founding teams including an IMPACT
accelerator supporting diverse founders
across renewable energy, circular
manufacturing, AI and ocean technology.
(01:49):
He was the first head of science at the
pioneering company Vesta that conducted
the first field trials using the mineral olivine
for carbon sequestration. In
2024 he spun Scape out of
Vesta as the CEO and founder and
he has now assembled a team of energy
executives and earth scientists.
(02:12):
And then we have Chase Dwyer, co founder and
CEO of Carbon Ridge, a leading developer of
onboard carbon capture solutions for maritime m and
shipping offshore industries.
3rd guy on board with us today is Michael Walker,
who's the CEO of stacks, pioneer in
maritime emission capture and control.
(02:33):
Stacks patented flexible exhaust capture
system is designed to fit on all ships
without modification, even in the most
congested ports.
So we have a group of three
really interesting innovators with us and I
would love to first hear from you
(02:53):
Nathan, talking about the pioneer
commitments. So can you bring us
into the world of this natural cycle
and how SCAPE and your partners fit
in to deliver solutions beyond what
we have today.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (03:09):
Yeah, thank you so much and really appreciate you having us
on to talk about our solutions. so you know,
as an original oceanographer and marine climate
scientists, the Ocean and Earth have one
of the largest carbon Cycles, which is actually the mineral
dissolution of minerals like olivine and
seawater. This carbon cycle has been regulating
Earth's climate for billions of years. So I like to say
(03:32):
it's already at scale. So the question, I think
becomes, you know, how can we leverage this natural
process, for the activities and
particularly the hard to abate sectors, that we need to reduce
emissions around? For example, this carbon cycle
requires a mineral called olivine. it is
a magnesium silicate. It comes, from volcanic
activity. It's one of the most abundant minerals in
(03:54):
Earth's mantle as that
dissolves in seawater. For example, there's a very famous beach in Hawaii
called Papakalea where this is happening all the time.
As this dissolves in seawater, it sequesters
atmospheric CO2 into the form
bicarbonate, where it's stable for 10,000 years. And oceanographers
have been publishing on this for decades. So it's very well
known stability. So, you know, the question is,
(04:16):
can we use that process to instead
sequester industrial emissions from hard to abate
sectors, along things like ports and
coastlines? so at Scape, we said, you know,
why don't we containerize this reaction and you know,
develop coastal facilities, where we can take
in CO, two, industrial CO2 and
sequester it, knowing that the
(04:37):
sequestration is permanent. And I think one of the big
value adds here is that for the maritime
industry is if we can set up things like
sequestration, hubs at ports, then we can
remove a lot of the complex logistics,
that CO2 capture and then
sequestration, typically experience, for example
pipelines and injection wells. And we could do it at a
(05:00):
fraction of the cost because that reaction is an ambient
temperature, ambient pressure reaction, so it doesn't pull
a lot of energy. For example, at Scape, we
really dug in on the CO2 sequestration
part, which in carbon capture and storage is known as
carbon storage. Our, approach
was really to then partner, with other innovative
(05:20):
companies that are figuring out the other complex logistics
of capturing carbon for the, maritime sector,
which comes with its own challenges. That's, why I'm excited to
have, Michael and Chase here today. And, and I believe
us three could be, very synergistic and
really, as a value chain start, to tackle some of the
biggest challenges and particularly in emissions compliance
(05:41):
for these big sectors. So I'll leave it there.
>> Birgit Liodden (05:44):
Thank you. And before we bring the word to
Chase and Michael, I just wondered,
can you bring us into understanding
how. Chase, sorry, how
the Scape solution works,
for those of us that aren't
deeply into the technology and
understanding of carbon sequestration?
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (06:06):
Yeah. So like I said, what
oceanographers have been studying for a long time is how the
Earth regulates its climate and sequesters CO2.
So typically you hear about photosynthesis, and
that's one part of it. A much larger, carbon
cycle is one where minerals like alkalizing
minerals like limestone, olivine, they dissolve into
(06:26):
seawater. That's a very gradual process. So, while
it's regulated Earth's climate for a long
time, humanity is now putting more CO2 into the atmosphere than
that process can regulate. so what Scape said is can
we accelerate that process and then use it
to sequester industrial emissions? So what that looks like
at a port, for example, is Scape
(06:46):
developing a coastal facility where we move
seawater through a flow through system. You know, we've
developed other flow through systems, for example, like wastewater
treatment plants, fermentation, so you know, flow through
systems, such as that. And then for example,
a ship like a bolt carrier can bring a
nearby, olivine source to us. So
let's say it's a regional olivine deposit that's
(07:09):
one, thousand kilometres away. We can bring in olivine
and then olivine is ground to a
finer particle, ah, size. And then inside
of our facilities we dissolve olivine into
seawater. And what that creates is an environment
where we can then take a CO2 source, whether it
be, let's say from a ship or an industrial plant,
(07:29):
at the port. And then we can immediately sequester that
CO2 on site. So the CO2 gets converted
into a compound called bicarbonate. It's in all
water and it's a dissolved salt. So it's in the ocean,
it's very stable. So that is
the reaction that has stabilised our
planet for a long time. At the same time,
(07:49):
SCAPE actually recovers critical metals like nickel and
chromium. And the nickel and chromium actually come
from the olivine itself. Olivine has trace
amounts of nickel and chromium in there. So when
olivine dissolves in our facilities, we can sort them
with commercially available absorbents, so we have
critical metals and then we're sequestering carbon.
And I think, what Michael and Chase and I are
(08:12):
Aiming to do is for those larger
maritime partners that we work with is to enable them to be
compliant, under these emissions, compliance that
you know, are in different places around the world. So,
so really you know there's. If we can combine capture and then
sequestration on site, which is what SCAPE is at these
coastal facilities, I think we can provide a very
compelling solution for for these industries.
>> Birgit Liodden (08:35):
M. That is super interesting. And Chase, if
you continue on the value chain,
perspective, can you explain what is the
role and value creation of carbon rich?
>> Chase Dwyer (08:46):
Yeah, so we sit kind of upstream from
scape, on the capture side, for
vessels, cruise industry and otherwise.
and basically how our system works is it's like a
mini chemical process where we bring the
flue gas of the vessel into our
modularized containers or skids,
and out comes no emissions or you
(09:08):
know, practically no emissions. Up to 90% removal of
CO2, 99.5%
removal of sulphur and then you know,
same 99% removal of NOx, nitrous
oxide. And out comes liquid CO2 on the back
end which then can be sent to you know, a
group like SCAPE to be permanently sequestered or
(09:28):
can be sent to you know, a firm looking to go
reutilize it in some industrial process for
you know, electrofuels or cement or something along those
lines. So we use what's basically like a
catalytic converter for your car to remove the
NOx. That's the big one obviously that Michael
is also been working on for a long time, is trying to clean
out pretty harmful pollutants in the air. And so that's already
(09:51):
regulated from a maritime perspective. We then clean the
sulphur as well, which is already regulated with a seawater
based system. and then we get to the CO2 capture which is really
our bread and butter. And our system is a complete end
to end system on the vessel. So we do CO2
capture regeneration of the solvent that we use to capture
the CO2 so that you're constantly using the same solvent.
(10:11):
You're not loading new solvent every time you come on
a vessel, which gets very expensive. And then at the
end we compress the CO2 and we liquefy it into a
liquid form, so that it can be sent and used
industrially. The key part of our technology is that we
use centrifuges to do a good amount of those
processes which significantly reduces the overall size of
the equipment and the carbon capture process. And A lot of the other
(10:34):
pieces by over 75%. So
that's kind of our core bread and butter. We're operating globally
so we have kind of partners in Asia,
few in the US and then we have the first plant
that we're putting online at Tankership this year.
>> Birgit Liodden (10:49):
That is very exciting. And
Michael, can you explain to us how
how stacks plug into this value
chain? Because of course the retrofit
and changes to existing ships, that
is quite complex.
>> Michael Walker (11:05):
We offer a little bit of a different solution than Chase
and Nathan, but a complimentary one. And really the direction
we're going right now, SACS primarily
targets PM and nocs and that's per
the California Air Resource Board carbs app,
Earth regulations. So we address that need
for the thousands of ships that come into
(11:25):
the California port births that are required
to have their emissions treated while they're in
port. And that includes crews and
containers, auto carriers and
tankers as well. So we currently have eight
units in operation. We're scaling up to 30.
our technology reaches up to the stack actually from
(11:45):
a barge based solution and captures the emissions
from the actual exhaust stack. And so we're
able to take that exhaust stream, run it through
our processing system, reduce PM,
by 99%, Knox by greater than
95% and ultimately qualifying
those visits. Underneath that California Air
(12:06):
Resource Board regulation, the
logical next step for us is to partner
with Chase and Nathan and entities that
are now capturing carbon on the back end of that.
So it's a natural transition for us. California
hasn't made the move yet to regulate carbon
but we anticipate that to be in the
forefront or in the future rather. And so
(12:29):
the unique aspect that we have where
Chase and Nathan are able to actually do it on board.
So there's this nice great evolution as we retrofit and
we add new builds into a carbon capture
component. We kind of backfill that area that
people aren't doing as of yet or when you don't have
unregulated or rather unconverted
(12:50):
vessels, you're able to put a carbon capture system
on a system like a stacks and we're able to
turn your, your port visit to a zero emission
visit. So we're super excited about it. Currently I think
we've treated somewhere around 90 tonnes of emissions in the
state of California. the regulation just moved up
in 2025 to include auto carriers and tankers and
(13:11):
so it's a big leap forward. We're also very
excited about the opportunity that we have in the UK and
EU with regard to carbon capture
in those venues as well as we look as
an alternative to shore power which has its limitations from
a capex standpoint, from a deployment standpoint. And
then also certainly there's the vast majority of ships
(13:31):
do not have any kind of shore power
ability. So with a stack
system with a partner with Chase or Nathan, we're able
to take and address those waste streams while they're at
port and give them a zero emission footprint.
>> Birgit Liodden (13:45):
That is extremely interesting. And that's also
what what Nate will be be covering at the
sea trade 40th anniversary in April
in Miami. And I'm wondering, I
mean of course we, we know that in the maritime industry
you make investments for many many
years ahead and it will be a long time until we
have new builds out at the seven
(14:07):
seas that are fully emission free. So
of course the, the solutions that we can
plug into existing vessels to decarbonize
them while we are working to get
completely emission free solutions in place will
be crucial when we look
at getting towards 2030.
(14:27):
Can you share with us a bit around your
progress? When will we be able to
have this combination of solutions on
board a vessel and where are
key opportunities for cruise and
various regional ports that you see
interesting from each of your
perspectives and where are
(14:50):
essential bottlenecks that needs to be tackled
to bring these solutions out on m the
large cruise vessels. And I'll start with you Nate.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (14:58):
Yeah so right now scape, the company was spun
out of another company called Vesta, where I
was the former head of science. So that Vesta was
started in 2019. And what Vesta
focused on was actually spreading the mineral olivine
in the coastal ocean to sequester atmospheric
CO2. So what I did is I took
that process and I bottled it and put it
(15:21):
at port. at Vesta we raised 25
million across grants and equity to really de risk the
science and the technology of olivine. When we were
starting there was no real precedent yet
for that type of sequestration. So
in 2024 I spun scape out and we
raised first quick round of funding.
(15:41):
And right now we're raising basically a late
seed type of round. And what we will
plan to do is to really develop our
shipping containerized unit to do
very rapid modular testing where we can go
to coastal industrial sites, place it on site
that's minimally invasive and, and do that rapid
testing and then going towards
(16:03):
2028 to 2030 our
goal is to really have ah, closer to
a 50 to 100,000 tonne CO2 per
year system that's running you know at ports
and coastlines. And so really
our go to market and our really kind of
best place to be positioned our ports and
(16:23):
really shore side to then be able
to flexibly intake CO2, let's say
from a ship that has coming up, that is
the carbon capture or, or shop ship stocked at
port, that needs sequestration services. So we are really
aiming to be CO2 storage as a service which kind of is
a replacement for example than having the CO2
(16:44):
sent to, to an offshore injection platform.
So really by 2030 we aim to be commercial at the
100,000 tonne scale and then ultimately
have a vision for the million tonnes of CO2
per year facility which is still quite
smaller than for example like a wastewater treatment facility.
>> Birgit Liodden (17:02):
Thank you. And Chase, about you, you mentioned that you
are now getting your solution on board with a tanker
vessel but how about the cruise
market and what's your pathway? What's
needed?
>> Chase Dwyer (17:14):
Yeah so as I said we're deploying our first system right now
on a vessel. We've been working on land for a little
while now and kind of innovating on the technology
I guess. And once the first deployment is done,
that deployment is, think of it, it captures
a bit less than 5% of the flue gas of the vessel. So
it's kind of a slipstream of it really. It's to get full
(17:35):
end to end validation of the technology
because we are using some newer things from a maritime
perspective, industrial technology that's been deployed at
scale for a long time. But bringing things into the maritime
industry is always a process of trying to make sure everybody's
comfortable with it. Right. And kind of understands all the elements.
So once that's done we're then moving towards you
know, commercial deployment. There's no fundamental R
(17:58):
and D issues that need to be solved in order to
scale from where we are today to you
know, up to 70, 80, 90% capacity on
these vessels, whether it's a cruise ship or it's a
tanker or container line. So we're working with a
handful of different players across the tanker business,
container ships, talking with a few people in the cruise
space about what these deployments are going to look like
(18:20):
and targeting to begin the construction
of the first larger scale unit in
2026. So it'll be going from
pilot scale to commercial scale, in the next
24 months. Think of it. Essentially, what's really
interesting about the synergy here is that we
do most of our work when the vessels at sea
(18:40):
and when it's approaching port, but when the
vessel actually gets support, it becomes more and more challenging
versus, like ours to be very effective
in terms of. In the actual port operations, in
terms of how it operates based on really the energy balances of the
vessel. because the vessel is not emitting as much
CO2 as it is out in port. But our system,
right. Still has basic functionality requirements. And so
(19:03):
where I think Michael's solution is really interesting. Right, is it's kind
of that, like, handover almost, so that we get inside the port and
they take over the operations. And that why carbon
capture and then doing all the other things that we are doing is interesting.
And then obviously something needs to be done with that CO2.
So we're very interested in kind of the parallels there of
how that all connects. But we're excited about the fact
(19:23):
that we're ready to move and scale
very soon.
>> Birgit Liodden (19:27):
And Michael, I mean, you're already well on the
ground. Your company was
named, Fast Company, Next Big Things in
tech last year. Can you describe your
progress and ability to really now support the
cruise industry together with Chase and
Mate?
>> Michael Walker (19:44):
Yeah, we couldn't be at a more exciting time for stacks. We just
closed last week the second half of $120
million financing. That really puts us on
a, pathway to our goal of
hitting 30 units, within the state of
California, addressing those, those at birth needs that
I discussed, previously. But the thing that I
love about hearing about what Chase and Nate are talking about is, you know, they
(20:07):
have the heavy lift here that, you know, I keep looking from the
outside, we love our story because what we do is we're
able to. We're really good at connecting to vessels,
and there's a lot of value to that. we give operational
excellence, safety, all those things that really matter in the
maritime space. We also give a really clean
waste stream that comes out on the back of our,
(20:27):
systems. that is a good source
for whether it's Chase or Nate or what have you.
And it allows us to partner with best of breed. And some
of the big challenges these guys are facing, are around
sequestration and what do we do with storage
and what have you. So we're really excited
about partnering with Them we see that as really the
(20:47):
natural next step for the business as we expand
into the UK and into the EU.
We have plans in 2025 that are,
we're working through right now for expansion into
the UK market that would have a component of
carbon capture along with that. we see that as
integral, particularly in the EU
(21:08):
where zero carbon is the driver versus air
quality. in the UK air quality is a little bit more
of a driver and so they see it as equal
mix, back and forth. But the one exciting thing
is within the next 45 days we will actually
do the first carbon capture test and
storage on a vessel in the port of La Long
(21:28):
beach. And we'll demonstrate that, we'll come back
with some data and we'll be able to show what that
looks like and we'll have the first zero emission
port visit in the history of port visit. So we're, we're
super excited about that. but again you know the heavy lift that
Nate and Chase are doing is, is not lost on us.
We're super appreciative of it. There's a lot of
(21:49):
business models and challenges associated with it and I'm thankful
they're working so hard and diligently on it.
And we look to partner with folks like
them in order to provide zero emission across the
globe. And I think that it's a nice synergy between the two
of us. Whether it's you know, we have our
founding member or of
the company is a pioneer in the mission
(22:11):
capture and control space, Bob Sharp. And
he's working on right now ways in which we can
particularly solve the cruise line which is a different
animal because the exhaust streams at port are
significantly higher than those of the other vessel
types. But we're we're pursuing that as well.
>> Birgit Liodden (22:29):
That is interesting. And I think that in a world
with some pretty huge
corporations, ah, then it's very often
extremely complex for individual
startups to get in the door with these large
stakeholders. And on the other side it's Even
when the willingness and eagerness and interest is
there from the corporate guys, it can of course be quite
(22:51):
complex to work with a bunch
of individual startups not really
connected. Which is why I wanted to bring you guys on board
because I do believe that when we look at power
coupling, the dynamics between
tapping into the best synergies and strengths of
the large corporates and the small new startups,
there is one area that is really very often
(23:13):
overlooked which is about teaming
up and bundling a combination
of innovators and solutions so
that you have a more kind of
complete value chain for the
large stakeholders to work with which
really also can de risk and reduce the
(23:33):
complexity in the decision making process
and actually handling this live
on the ground. Can you talk to me a little bit
about how you see the best
potentials and you know, the cool
opportunities in your multi
stakeholder dynamics moving ahead, when you
(23:53):
try to see it from the perspective
of a director in a large cruise.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (23:59):
Company, coming from a background of science, you
know, into the world of business. You know, I'm
of course very excited by the fact that the physical
mechanism I'm working with, the Earth is and the
earth figured out a long time ago. but the benefit
I would say with talking with you, Birgit and Michael,
and Chase is I really just start getting down to
it. What are the deep challenges actually being
(24:21):
experienced by the larger industries,
at ports and just generally in the
maritime industry. And that's really where the
refining of the product starts taking place.
Chase and Michael and I are just talking about what are
the big challenges, financial challenges, logistical
challenges that we're actually there to solve.
And that's I think really where the excitement
(24:44):
comes from. These solutions. It's like yes of
course, emissions capture and clean air and
carbon is important but really these
operators have very strict schedules. it's very
challenging to move around, challenging to get
things from A to B off site. And
that's when all of us kind of really start to think about okay, those
are actually the challenges that we're solving and how do
(25:06):
we, they really need to move forward in this space, but
they also really need to keep their businesses going. And
so some of the most more innovative and most
innovative collaborators and operators that I see
are those really focusing on those challenges. And I
think that's kind of the benefit what you're bringing
here for us is we figured out some technically
(25:26):
challenging things but really we're in the process of figuring
out some very business and logistical
challenges to really get our product in, into market and
to really step into a very large, you know, and
potentially sometimes slower moving industry for us. But that's
why I think collaboration is key because I'll learn about
challenges that ah, Chase and Michael are looking at that
(25:46):
really help me, you know, and then you know, vice
versa. You know, we all talk to different operators and
their challenges along the chain so that's
what I think is really exciting for us to just hone in on those
challenges and chase when it's.
>> Birgit Liodden (26:01):
seen from your perspective, what is the
key values from your end?
>> Chase Dwyer (26:06):
I think the interesting thing is that we kind of all
operate in the climate space generally
that's taken off especially in the past five years. And I
think one thing that's typical in climate is that people are solving
this kind of existential issue but without a real
customer almost in a way, in a lot of cases with director
capture or other spaces with
maritime and everything that we're involved in here,
(26:29):
there's a very specific customer base,
right, that has an existing business model that we're trying to figure
out, okay, how do we get rid of the emissions in this business model? And
so half of the question is how do we get rid of the emissions
in the business model? But the other half is how do we do this in a
way that makes sense, as Nathan said, so that we don't disrupt
vessel schedules or in the cruise industry,
(26:49):
the schedules of the people that are trying to enjoy their time on those
cruises, which is kind of the core sauce
and focus of the business, not necessarily
reducing the effects of climate. And so I
think the big thing from our perspective is understanding how do
we look at it very holistically, right. Of this needs to be an end to
end solution and what are the goals and so, you know,
(27:09):
where we can align with scape is that the goals at
the end of the day are to reduce CO2 emissions as much as
possible and to do that with carbon
capture. You really need to look at how do we
get the CO2 to a permanent place where it can be
stored long term so that you can actually qualify to
say we captured CO2, we got rid of it, it
(27:29):
has a climate impact. So there's a natural synergy
there. And our ability to kind of partner and say, hey, we're going to have
this kind of complete end to end solution to capture the
CO2 on the vessel and the rest of the missions and then do
something with it after. And I think the same thing when it comes to
stacks, right, is that complementary
solution where we can do a lot of work at
sea, but Michael is much better at doing it at the port.
(27:52):
And you really need both, right, because one almost can't
function without the other in a way to have that full holistic
solution. And then I think the back end of it, right, is that
Michael's also doing, looking at carbon capture and ship. So obviously there's a
natural synergy there as we have a technology we've been working
on. So I think that I was saying
this might have been almost a year ago to
(28:12):
one of the strategy managers at one of the large
industrial maritime OEMs. I said, if you're guys going to go
try to build a carbon capture business, I would go buy
a carbon capture developer, I would buy Port
CO2 and NOx developer, and then I would go buy
somebody who's looking at the logistics or the back end of the
solution. And that's kind of who you have here on this
podcast. So it's really the full end to
(28:35):
end.
>> Birgit Liodden (28:35):
That's such an important perspective, I think,
because, I mean, there are a lot of, A lot of actors
out there looking at, onboard carbon,
capture, these days. But then one of the
main issues, just as we can see
with plastic and waste or with
renewable energy, is that if you don't have a
value chain to take it up and
(28:58):
handle it, then it doesn't really matter if you
manage to capture it. So, Michael, seen
from your perspective, I mean, you can partner with a lot of different
stakeholders here. How do you consider,
like, the key wins for a cruise line
that is looking at this as a way of,
removing and reducing their own footprints?
>> Michael Walker (29:18):
We operate a little bit of a benefit and, less of a challenge
than what Nate and Chase are doing because we have that
carb regulation, which has distinct fine
structures in that. And so there has to be compliance.
And so I come from the standpoint
almost like, man, I would love to see some kind of carbon tax
or something that would drive the value of
(29:38):
carbon in a way that the response that we
get, which is they have to use this
technology and so there has to be adoption of
it. And that's why I'm so interested in having these
conversations with Nate, Chase and others
around what their model looks like and
how we can partner together and what those synergies
are. I don't want to throw the industry under the
(30:00):
bus, though. on the commercial side, you have companies like
NY NYK who are saying, hey, we're going to go ahead
and do this no matter what. We have companies
like Amports who saying, hey, we operate terminals
on the east coast and we want this technology because our
customers are demanding it and Shell and
Toyota. So I think the worms turned a
lot, with regard to the industry saying, okay, it might
(30:22):
not be a regulation, it might not be regulated,
but we, it hits our mandates, internal
mandates, to go ahead and do this ourselves. And
that's super encouraging. Right. And we're seeing
that actually some of the folks are looking at taking us over to the UK
is really driven by the commercial side of it. So when
you look at a cruise, I think the footprint
(30:42):
people are trying to get to is they want to, I'm sure, you know,
address this need. there's a way for it
to, from a business standpoint, I'm sure to pass
those costs through and along. But
ultimately, you know, how do you solve this
problem of capturing carbon in the most
efficient way while at birth, without,
you know, screwing up operations or
(31:05):
lessening the experience? I think there's some
challenges to it, but I think also that it's, it's all
workable. and I think ultimately it's
something that if we close our eyes and open them up in five
years, it'll be a solution that's going to be there on the table because I
think it's inevitable that we're heading in this direction. And
now it's just a function of what's the best path
(31:25):
to get there.
>> Birgit Liodden (31:26):
For the cruise folks out there listening in
and watching here today, how can
ports and cruise lines team up with you?
And where do you see the
ideal partners
and regions? markets where
you think you should have capabilities
to move in early and really create
(31:49):
these amazing power couple, structures
ahead to help the cruise industry on this
important area.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (31:56):
So for us, kind of, I think going off
of what Michael said, we are CO2
sequestration, so our best foot
forward as a go to market is in carbon compliance
markets. I would say federally in the United
States, I'm not sure if we'll have one. but
state by state, there will be compliance markets. And
(32:17):
I'd say California is one of the first movers
going there. So there's actually a lot of energy, for
example, from maritime industries
knowing that a compliance market, in California
is developing and that's really important for us. The
market for us and the product is big,
industrials feeling, really attacks coming in on their
balance sheet that they need to solve and the tax needs
(32:39):
to be significant enough. So the best
example and the most mature compliance markets of course
are in the eu where the carbon price is very
high. And so if you have very large
facilities emitting more in the hundreds
of thousands of tonnes of CO2 or in the maritime
industry and you have a price of carbon that's
$100 a tonne or increasing, as
(33:02):
Bloomberg is projecting in the next few
years, then you're really getting into the tens of
hundreds of millions of dollars of taxes, for your carbon
footprint. so really we know that,
and that obviously is kind of on full display.
So, we have received a lot of
interest, because we are emissions reduction, to
(33:22):
enable compliance from a CO2
perspective, in Europe, it also has
a lot of olivine, has a lot of seawater, and a lot of,
coastal industrial activities. So that's
really kind of a first, step for us. And really
as an example, the Port of Rotterdam, is
developing a lot of carbon, capture and storage
infrastructure. So it's really a port oriented in
(33:45):
that direction already. And that's really helpful
from a discussion standpoint. I think Chase,
Michael and I, when we need to go into very large industries,
we need to see who's oriented in that way already.
So it's very different if you're trying to convince someone to do
this versus those that are already looking for a solution. So
as a startup and smaller companies, it's very important.
And then we're excited to create models for other
(34:07):
industries to look at to see that it is working.
And so for us, I would say Europe, places like
California, Japan, Korea and Singapore are starting
their compliance market. So that's from our perspective,
it's really a CO2 compliance, perspective for us.
>> Birgit Liodden (34:22):
Thank you, Nate. Anything you guys want to add,
Chase and Michael?
>> Chase Dwyer (34:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think from a broader perspective when you
look at the regulatory. Michael's right. That the industry has been very slow
to move to adopt anything when it comes to, around
CO2. But you do have the CII
regulation in place today, which does affect some vessels depending
on the routes that they're operating. The cruise
industry operates very short, distance
(34:47):
routes relative to a lot of other vessels. So sometimes you do see
an impact there if you have older vessels. So that might be a pain
point for operators. and then you do have
a slow but developing regulatory market
around adopting something that's more
related to putting a price and a
levy on CO2 with it, at the IMO
level when that exactly happens, we'll see. but I
(35:09):
think that as Michael said, there's a pretty clear
path to this needed to happen and kind of
being buy in from the industry. There's
specifically to cruise line. I think what's interesting from our perspective is
that we've built a solution to be very modular so
that it doesn't require a super invasive
retrofit. You don't need to take a 30 metre
column and dig it into the funnel of a
(35:31):
vessel. We have these modules basically that can be
installed really anywhere adjacent or in
the engine room on a new build. And so we
provide a solution that can be more plug and
play for the cruise industry. And I think then
in addition what we're looking to do is
provide this end to end solution for ship owners, right, to
(35:52):
decarbonize. So it's not just the carbon capture technology on board,
it's the management of all the logistics that come after
it. And Nathan's solution is one part of those
logistics. Right. And they're trying to minimise that. You don't
need to do maybe a bunch of, you know, other trans
shipment or trucking or something like that.
but also looking at the monetization and bringing the scheme back
(36:12):
together, looking at financing and what's the right way to finance
these kind of package module units and really wrapping
it all up into kind of carbon capture as a service
and then looking at what you're doing on the port side, which is
what Michael's working on. So I think from our perspective it's
a cruise line that says, you know, there's this
explicit need for us to go in and reduce CO2 in
(36:32):
these solutions. You know, they can't find a good
alternative that can really get them to high levels of,
of CO2 reduction. And we provide a
relatively plug and play way to do that. that's going to be commercially
available here very soon.
>> Birgit Liodden (36:46):
Thank you Chase. Those are great points.
We will land in very soon
and round up this episode. But Michael, do you have
additional points that haven't been covered by Nathan or Chase or
that are different seen from your perspective on
the early movies market?
>> Michael Walker (37:03):
Yeah, I'm wildly encouraged. I think three years ago when we started
raising money, the quality of venture capital that we were
talking to that was focused on the carbon capture space
was tier one and they were the best.
And I was, I remember, you know, thinking to myself,
okay, this is exactly what it needs to get to where,
you know, we're going to have a successful market because you have
(37:23):
high quality venture capital putting money into
organisations and supporting them. So
places like Scape and Carbon Ridge, that's where all
this comes from. It starts bubbling up from having great
focused venture capital as well. And then I
think ultimately when we're able
to showcase the first carbon capture
(37:44):
at birth, I think then that shows to regulators, hey look,
this is real. When Chase and NATO are able to
demonstrate their product at scale and
the application working. Now, all of a sudden it
puts just this continual pressure on everybody.
And now regulators can point to it and they can
say, here's a technology that we can get right
(38:04):
regulation to, because Scape or Carbon
Ridge can support that. And there's a technology
there. So, again, I'm wildly encouraged. I
think that there's great resources behind, this path. And I
think that we're getting to a critical, mass point
where we can start to demonstrate
carbon capture at scale. And once we do that, then the
economics will come together, I believe.
>> Birgit Liodden (38:26):
Thank you so much. I think that enables us to
round off on a very positive note. And,
for the curious executives out there, eager to
learn more, make sure we catch up at
Seatrade trade at the 40th anniversary in
Miami. Nate will be there and we are a
bunch of amazing innovators from
(38:46):
around the world eager to land in with
Cruise. So thank you all of you
guys, and I'm really looking forward to following
your journeys ahead. Thank you.
For ctrade global 40th anniversary in
2025, we will also prepare the very first
(39:09):
edition of Tools Cruise Innovators, a
global overview of startups and innovators with
enabling solutions for cruise. Welcome
on board our voyage into the future and join
the wave. Sign up today.
Community.toolspawn.com.
Welcome to the Cruise Pioneers podcast by
tool hosted on Seatrade Cruise Talks
podcasts.
Hello, I'm Birgit Liadin, Sustainability ambassador
of Seatrade Trade and founder of the Ocean Opportunity
Lab. In this new series we will dive into the
pioneering initiatives of cruise lines and entrepreneurs
(00:21):
who move and change the cruise industry. We focus
on real life frontrunner initiatives and power
couples enabling crews to move
from pollution to solution. Get on board our
shared expedition as we get behind the scenes
and explore how owners, founders and
top executives move from vision to
deployment. In today's episode we
(00:44):
explore the topic and concept of carbon
sequestration using the ocean's
natural sequestration cycle but
industrialising it. We explore the
potentials for carbon sequestration hubs at
ports and its potential for supporting the cruise
industry in solving the carbon removal
(01:04):
issue. Pre 2030we explore
this through a value chain perspective
with three innovators circled
around Scape and looking at
how actors can capture carbon and
deliver it to scape. So with me in
studio today we have Dr. Nathan
Wolworth, who is an entrepreneurial climate
(01:26):
scientist and adjunct professor who has studied the
marine carbon cycle for 15 years from the
tropics to Antarctica. He stepped into
climate entrepreneurships 10 years ago as
part of several founding teams including an IMPACT
accelerator supporting diverse founders
across renewable energy, circular
manufacturing, AI and ocean technology.
(01:49):
He was the first head of science at the
pioneering company Vesta that conducted
the first field trials using the mineral olivine
for carbon sequestration. In
2024 he spun Scape out of
Vesta as the CEO and founder and
he has now assembled a team of energy
executives and earth scientists.
(02:12):
And then we have Chase Dwyer, co founder and
CEO of Carbon Ridge, a leading developer of
onboard carbon capture solutions for maritime m and
shipping offshore industries.
3rd guy on board with us today is Michael Walker,
who's the CEO of stacks, pioneer in
maritime emission capture and control.
(02:33):
Stacks patented flexible exhaust capture
system is designed to fit on all ships
without modification, even in the most
congested ports.
So we have a group of three
really interesting innovators with us and I
would love to first hear from you
(02:53):
Nathan, talking about the pioneer
commitments. So can you bring us
into the world of this natural cycle
and how SCAPE and your partners fit
in to deliver solutions beyond what
we have today.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (03:09):
Yeah, thank you so much and really appreciate you having us
on to talk about our solutions. so you know,
as an original oceanographer and marine climate
scientists, the Ocean and Earth have one
of the largest carbon Cycles, which is actually the mineral
dissolution of minerals like olivine and
seawater. This carbon cycle has been regulating
Earth's climate for billions of years. So I like to say
(03:32):
it's already at scale. So the question, I think
becomes, you know, how can we leverage this natural
process, for the activities and
particularly the hard to abate sectors, that we need to reduce
emissions around? For example, this carbon cycle
requires a mineral called olivine. it is
a magnesium silicate. It comes, from volcanic
activity. It's one of the most abundant minerals in
(03:54):
Earth's mantle as that
dissolves in seawater. For example, there's a very famous beach in Hawaii
called Papakalea where this is happening all the time.
As this dissolves in seawater, it sequesters
atmospheric CO2 into the form
bicarbonate, where it's stable for 10,000 years. And oceanographers
have been publishing on this for decades. So it's very well
known stability. So, you know, the question is,
(04:16):
can we use that process to instead
sequester industrial emissions from hard to abate
sectors, along things like ports and
coastlines? so at Scape, we said, you know,
why don't we containerize this reaction and you know,
develop coastal facilities, where we can take
in CO, two, industrial CO2 and
sequester it, knowing that the
(04:37):
sequestration is permanent. And I think one of the big
value adds here is that for the maritime
industry is if we can set up things like
sequestration, hubs at ports, then we can
remove a lot of the complex logistics,
that CO2 capture and then
sequestration, typically experience, for example
pipelines and injection wells. And we could do it at a
(05:00):
fraction of the cost because that reaction is an ambient
temperature, ambient pressure reaction, so it doesn't pull
a lot of energy. For example, at Scape, we
really dug in on the CO2 sequestration
part, which in carbon capture and storage is known as
carbon storage. Our, approach
was really to then partner, with other innovative
(05:20):
companies that are figuring out the other complex logistics
of capturing carbon for the, maritime sector,
which comes with its own challenges. That's, why I'm excited to
have, Michael and Chase here today. And, and I believe
us three could be, very synergistic and
really, as a value chain start, to tackle some of the
biggest challenges and particularly in emissions compliance
(05:41):
for these big sectors. So I'll leave it there.
>> Birgit Liodden (05:44):
Thank you. And before we bring the word to
Chase and Michael, I just wondered,
can you bring us into understanding
how. Chase, sorry, how
the Scape solution works,
for those of us that aren't
deeply into the technology and
understanding of carbon sequestration?
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (06:06):
Yeah. So like I said, what
oceanographers have been studying for a long time is how the
Earth regulates its climate and sequesters CO2.
So typically you hear about photosynthesis, and
that's one part of it. A much larger, carbon
cycle is one where minerals like alkalizing
minerals like limestone, olivine, they dissolve into
(06:26):
seawater. That's a very gradual process. So, while
it's regulated Earth's climate for a long
time, humanity is now putting more CO2 into the atmosphere than
that process can regulate. so what Scape said is can
we accelerate that process and then use it
to sequester industrial emissions? So what that looks like
at a port, for example, is Scape
(06:46):
developing a coastal facility where we move
seawater through a flow through system. You know, we've
developed other flow through systems, for example, like wastewater
treatment plants, fermentation, so you know, flow through
systems, such as that. And then for example,
a ship like a bolt carrier can bring a
nearby, olivine source to us. So
let's say it's a regional olivine deposit that's
(07:09):
one, thousand kilometres away. We can bring in olivine
and then olivine is ground to a
finer particle, ah, size. And then inside
of our facilities we dissolve olivine into
seawater. And what that creates is an environment
where we can then take a CO2 source, whether it
be, let's say from a ship or an industrial plant,
(07:29):
at the port. And then we can immediately sequester that
CO2 on site. So the CO2 gets converted
into a compound called bicarbonate. It's in all
water and it's a dissolved salt. So it's in the ocean,
it's very stable. So that is
the reaction that has stabilised our
planet for a long time. At the same time,
(07:49):
SCAPE actually recovers critical metals like nickel and
chromium. And the nickel and chromium actually come
from the olivine itself. Olivine has trace
amounts of nickel and chromium in there. So when
olivine dissolves in our facilities, we can sort them
with commercially available absorbents, so we have
critical metals and then we're sequestering carbon.
And I think, what Michael and Chase and I are
(08:12):
Aiming to do is for those larger
maritime partners that we work with is to enable them to be
compliant, under these emissions, compliance that
you know, are in different places around the world. So,
so really you know there's. If we can combine capture and then
sequestration on site, which is what SCAPE is at these
coastal facilities, I think we can provide a very
compelling solution for for these industries.
>> Birgit Liodden (08:35):
M. That is super interesting. And Chase, if
you continue on the value chain,
perspective, can you explain what is the
role and value creation of carbon rich?
>> Chase Dwyer (08:46):
Yeah, so we sit kind of upstream from
scape, on the capture side, for
vessels, cruise industry and otherwise.
and basically how our system works is it's like a
mini chemical process where we bring the
flue gas of the vessel into our
modularized containers or skids,
and out comes no emissions or you
(09:08):
know, practically no emissions. Up to 90% removal of
CO2, 99.5%
removal of sulphur and then you know,
same 99% removal of NOx, nitrous
oxide. And out comes liquid CO2 on the back
end which then can be sent to you know, a
group like SCAPE to be permanently sequestered or
(09:28):
can be sent to you know, a firm looking to go
reutilize it in some industrial process for
you know, electrofuels or cement or something along those
lines. So we use what's basically like a
catalytic converter for your car to remove the
NOx. That's the big one obviously that Michael
is also been working on for a long time, is trying to clean
out pretty harmful pollutants in the air. And so that's already
(09:51):
regulated from a maritime perspective. We then clean the
sulphur as well, which is already regulated with a seawater
based system. and then we get to the CO2 capture which is really
our bread and butter. And our system is a complete end
to end system on the vessel. So we do CO2
capture regeneration of the solvent that we use to capture
the CO2 so that you're constantly using the same solvent.
(10:11):
You're not loading new solvent every time you come on
a vessel, which gets very expensive. And then at the
end we compress the CO2 and we liquefy it into a
liquid form, so that it can be sent and used
industrially. The key part of our technology is that we
use centrifuges to do a good amount of those
processes which significantly reduces the overall size of
the equipment and the carbon capture process. And A lot of the other
(10:34):
pieces by over 75%. So
that's kind of our core bread and butter. We're operating globally
so we have kind of partners in Asia,
few in the US and then we have the first plant
that we're putting online at Tankership this year.
>> Birgit Liodden (10:49):
That is very exciting. And
Michael, can you explain to us how
how stacks plug into this value
chain? Because of course the retrofit
and changes to existing ships, that
is quite complex.
>> Michael Walker (11:05):
We offer a little bit of a different solution than Chase
and Nathan, but a complimentary one. And really the direction
we're going right now, SACS primarily
targets PM and nocs and that's per
the California Air Resource Board carbs app,
Earth regulations. So we address that need
for the thousands of ships that come into
(11:25):
the California port births that are required
to have their emissions treated while they're in
port. And that includes crews and
containers, auto carriers and
tankers as well. So we currently have eight
units in operation. We're scaling up to 30.
our technology reaches up to the stack actually from
(11:45):
a barge based solution and captures the emissions
from the actual exhaust stack. And so we're
able to take that exhaust stream, run it through
our processing system, reduce PM,
by 99%, Knox by greater than
95% and ultimately qualifying
those visits. Underneath that California Air
(12:06):
Resource Board regulation, the
logical next step for us is to partner
with Chase and Nathan and entities that
are now capturing carbon on the back end of that.
So it's a natural transition for us. California
hasn't made the move yet to regulate carbon
but we anticipate that to be in the
forefront or in the future rather. And so
(12:29):
the unique aspect that we have where
Chase and Nathan are able to actually do it on board.
So there's this nice great evolution as we retrofit and
we add new builds into a carbon capture
component. We kind of backfill that area that
people aren't doing as of yet or when you don't have
unregulated or rather unconverted
(12:50):
vessels, you're able to put a carbon capture system
on a system like a stacks and we're able to
turn your, your port visit to a zero emission
visit. So we're super excited about it. Currently I think
we've treated somewhere around 90 tonnes of emissions in the
state of California. the regulation just moved up
in 2025 to include auto carriers and tankers and
(13:11):
so it's a big leap forward. We're also very
excited about the opportunity that we have in the UK and
EU with regard to carbon capture
in those venues as well as we look as
an alternative to shore power which has its limitations from
a capex standpoint, from a deployment standpoint. And
then also certainly there's the vast majority of ships
(13:31):
do not have any kind of shore power
ability. So with a stack
system with a partner with Chase or Nathan, we're able
to take and address those waste streams while they're at
port and give them a zero emission footprint.
>> Birgit Liodden (13:45):
That is extremely interesting. And that's also
what what Nate will be be covering at the
sea trade 40th anniversary in April
in Miami. And I'm wondering, I
mean of course we, we know that in the maritime industry
you make investments for many many
years ahead and it will be a long time until we
have new builds out at the seven
(14:07):
seas that are fully emission free. So
of course the, the solutions that we can
plug into existing vessels to decarbonize
them while we are working to get
completely emission free solutions in place will
be crucial when we look
at getting towards 2030.
(14:27):
Can you share with us a bit around your
progress? When will we be able to
have this combination of solutions on
board a vessel and where are
key opportunities for cruise and
various regional ports that you see
interesting from each of your
perspectives and where are
(14:50):
essential bottlenecks that needs to be tackled
to bring these solutions out on m the
large cruise vessels. And I'll start with you Nate.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (14:58):
Yeah so right now scape, the company was spun
out of another company called Vesta, where I
was the former head of science. So that Vesta was
started in 2019. And what Vesta
focused on was actually spreading the mineral olivine
in the coastal ocean to sequester atmospheric
CO2. So what I did is I took
that process and I bottled it and put it
(15:21):
at port. at Vesta we raised 25
million across grants and equity to really de risk the
science and the technology of olivine. When we were
starting there was no real precedent yet
for that type of sequestration. So
in 2024 I spun scape out and we
raised first quick round of funding.
(15:41):
And right now we're raising basically a late
seed type of round. And what we will
plan to do is to really develop our
shipping containerized unit to do
very rapid modular testing where we can go
to coastal industrial sites, place it on site
that's minimally invasive and, and do that rapid
testing and then going towards
(16:03):
2028 to 2030 our
goal is to really have ah, closer to
a 50 to 100,000 tonne CO2 per
year system that's running you know at ports
and coastlines. And so really
our go to market and our really kind of
best place to be positioned our ports and
(16:23):
really shore side to then be able
to flexibly intake CO2, let's say
from a ship that has coming up, that is
the carbon capture or, or shop ship stocked at
port, that needs sequestration services. So we are really
aiming to be CO2 storage as a service which kind of is
a replacement for example than having the CO2
(16:44):
sent to, to an offshore injection platform.
So really by 2030 we aim to be commercial at the
100,000 tonne scale and then ultimately
have a vision for the million tonnes of CO2
per year facility which is still quite
smaller than for example like a wastewater treatment facility.
>> Birgit Liodden (17:02):
Thank you. And Chase, about you, you mentioned that you
are now getting your solution on board with a tanker
vessel but how about the cruise
market and what's your pathway? What's
needed?
>> Chase Dwyer (17:14):
Yeah so as I said we're deploying our first system right now
on a vessel. We've been working on land for a little
while now and kind of innovating on the technology
I guess. And once the first deployment is done,
that deployment is, think of it, it captures
a bit less than 5% of the flue gas of the vessel. So
it's kind of a slipstream of it really. It's to get full
(17:35):
end to end validation of the technology
because we are using some newer things from a maritime
perspective, industrial technology that's been deployed at
scale for a long time. But bringing things into the maritime
industry is always a process of trying to make sure everybody's
comfortable with it. Right. And kind of understands all the elements.
So once that's done we're then moving towards you
know, commercial deployment. There's no fundamental R
(17:58):
and D issues that need to be solved in order to
scale from where we are today to you
know, up to 70, 80, 90% capacity on
these vessels, whether it's a cruise ship or it's a
tanker or container line. So we're working with a
handful of different players across the tanker business,
container ships, talking with a few people in the cruise
space about what these deployments are going to look like
(18:20):
and targeting to begin the construction
of the first larger scale unit in
2026. So it'll be going from
pilot scale to commercial scale, in the next
24 months. Think of it. Essentially, what's really
interesting about the synergy here is that we
do most of our work when the vessels at sea
(18:40):
and when it's approaching port, but when the
vessel actually gets support, it becomes more and more challenging
versus, like ours to be very effective
in terms of. In the actual port operations, in
terms of how it operates based on really the energy balances of the
vessel. because the vessel is not emitting as much
CO2 as it is out in port. But our system,
right. Still has basic functionality requirements. And so
(19:03):
where I think Michael's solution is really interesting. Right, is it's kind
of that, like, handover almost, so that we get inside the port and
they take over the operations. And that why carbon
capture and then doing all the other things that we are doing is interesting.
And then obviously something needs to be done with that CO2.
So we're very interested in kind of the parallels there of
how that all connects. But we're excited about the fact
(19:23):
that we're ready to move and scale
very soon.
>> Birgit Liodden (19:27):
And Michael, I mean, you're already well on the
ground. Your company was
named, Fast Company, Next Big Things in
tech last year. Can you describe your
progress and ability to really now support the
cruise industry together with Chase and
Mate?
>> Michael Walker (19:44):
Yeah, we couldn't be at a more exciting time for stacks. We just
closed last week the second half of $120
million financing. That really puts us on
a, pathway to our goal of
hitting 30 units, within the state of
California, addressing those, those at birth needs that
I discussed, previously. But the thing that I
love about hearing about what Chase and Nate are talking about is, you know, they
(20:07):
have the heavy lift here that, you know, I keep looking from the
outside, we love our story because what we do is we're
able to. We're really good at connecting to vessels,
and there's a lot of value to that. we give operational
excellence, safety, all those things that really matter in the
maritime space. We also give a really clean
waste stream that comes out on the back of our,
(20:27):
systems. that is a good source
for whether it's Chase or Nate or what have you.
And it allows us to partner with best of breed. And some
of the big challenges these guys are facing, are around
sequestration and what do we do with storage
and what have you. So we're really excited
about partnering with Them we see that as really the
(20:47):
natural next step for the business as we expand
into the UK and into the EU.
We have plans in 2025 that are,
we're working through right now for expansion into
the UK market that would have a component of
carbon capture along with that. we see that as
integral, particularly in the EU
(21:08):
where zero carbon is the driver versus air
quality. in the UK air quality is a little bit more
of a driver and so they see it as equal
mix, back and forth. But the one exciting thing
is within the next 45 days we will actually
do the first carbon capture test and
storage on a vessel in the port of La Long
(21:28):
beach. And we'll demonstrate that, we'll come back
with some data and we'll be able to show what that
looks like and we'll have the first zero emission
port visit in the history of port visit. So we're, we're
super excited about that. but again you know the heavy lift that
Nate and Chase are doing is, is not lost on us.
We're super appreciative of it. There's a lot of
(21:49):
business models and challenges associated with it and I'm thankful
they're working so hard and diligently on it.
And we look to partner with folks like
them in order to provide zero emission across the
globe. And I think that it's a nice synergy between the two
of us. Whether it's you know, we have our
founding member or of
the company is a pioneer in the mission
(22:11):
capture and control space, Bob Sharp. And
he's working on right now ways in which we can
particularly solve the cruise line which is a different
animal because the exhaust streams at port are
significantly higher than those of the other vessel
types. But we're we're pursuing that as well.
>> Birgit Liodden (22:29):
That is interesting. And I think that in a world
with some pretty huge
corporations, ah, then it's very often
extremely complex for individual
startups to get in the door with these large
stakeholders. And on the other side it's Even
when the willingness and eagerness and interest is
there from the corporate guys, it can of course be quite
(22:51):
complex to work with a bunch
of individual startups not really
connected. Which is why I wanted to bring you guys on board
because I do believe that when we look at power
coupling, the dynamics between
tapping into the best synergies and strengths of
the large corporates and the small new startups,
there is one area that is really very often
(23:13):
overlooked which is about teaming
up and bundling a combination
of innovators and solutions so
that you have a more kind of
complete value chain for the
large stakeholders to work with which
really also can de risk and reduce the
(23:33):
complexity in the decision making process
and actually handling this live
on the ground. Can you talk to me a little bit
about how you see the best
potentials and you know, the cool
opportunities in your multi
stakeholder dynamics moving ahead, when you
(23:53):
try to see it from the perspective
of a director in a large cruise.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (23:59):
Company, coming from a background of science, you
know, into the world of business. You know, I'm
of course very excited by the fact that the physical
mechanism I'm working with, the Earth is and the
earth figured out a long time ago. but the benefit
I would say with talking with you, Birgit and Michael,
and Chase is I really just start getting down to
it. What are the deep challenges actually being
(24:21):
experienced by the larger industries,
at ports and just generally in the
maritime industry. And that's really where the
refining of the product starts taking place.
Chase and Michael and I are just talking about what are
the big challenges, financial challenges, logistical
challenges that we're actually there to solve.
And that's I think really where the excitement
(24:44):
comes from. These solutions. It's like yes of
course, emissions capture and clean air and
carbon is important but really these
operators have very strict schedules. it's very
challenging to move around, challenging to get
things from A to B off site. And
that's when all of us kind of really start to think about okay, those
are actually the challenges that we're solving and how do
(25:06):
we, they really need to move forward in this space, but
they also really need to keep their businesses going. And
so some of the most more innovative and most
innovative collaborators and operators that I see
are those really focusing on those challenges. And I
think that's kind of the benefit what you're bringing
here for us is we figured out some technically
(25:26):
challenging things but really we're in the process of figuring
out some very business and logistical
challenges to really get our product in, into market and
to really step into a very large, you know, and
potentially sometimes slower moving industry for us. But that's
why I think collaboration is key because I'll learn about
challenges that ah, Chase and Michael are looking at that
(25:46):
really help me, you know, and then you know, vice
versa. You know, we all talk to different operators and
their challenges along the chain so that's
what I think is really exciting for us to just hone in on those
challenges and chase when it's.
>> Birgit Liodden (26:01):
seen from your perspective, what is the
key values from your end?
>> Chase Dwyer (26:06):
I think the interesting thing is that we kind of all
operate in the climate space generally
that's taken off especially in the past five years. And I
think one thing that's typical in climate is that people are solving
this kind of existential issue but without a real
customer almost in a way, in a lot of cases with director
capture or other spaces with
maritime and everything that we're involved in here,
(26:29):
there's a very specific customer base,
right, that has an existing business model that we're trying to figure
out, okay, how do we get rid of the emissions in this business model? And
so half of the question is how do we get rid of the emissions
in the business model? But the other half is how do we do this in a
way that makes sense, as Nathan said, so that we don't disrupt
vessel schedules or in the cruise industry,
(26:49):
the schedules of the people that are trying to enjoy their time on those
cruises, which is kind of the core sauce
and focus of the business, not necessarily
reducing the effects of climate. And so I
think the big thing from our perspective is understanding how do
we look at it very holistically, right. Of this needs to be an end to
end solution and what are the goals and so, you know,
(27:09):
where we can align with scape is that the goals at
the end of the day are to reduce CO2 emissions as much as
possible and to do that with carbon
capture. You really need to look at how do we
get the CO2 to a permanent place where it can be
stored long term so that you can actually qualify to
say we captured CO2, we got rid of it, it
(27:29):
has a climate impact. So there's a natural synergy
there. And our ability to kind of partner and say, hey, we're going to have
this kind of complete end to end solution to capture the
CO2 on the vessel and the rest of the missions and then do
something with it after. And I think the same thing when it comes to
stacks, right, is that complementary
solution where we can do a lot of work at
sea, but Michael is much better at doing it at the port.
(27:52):
And you really need both, right, because one almost can't
function without the other in a way to have that full holistic
solution. And then I think the back end of it, right, is that
Michael's also doing, looking at carbon capture and ship. So obviously there's a
natural synergy there as we have a technology we've been working
on. So I think that I was saying
this might have been almost a year ago to
(28:12):
one of the strategy managers at one of the large
industrial maritime OEMs. I said, if you're guys going to go
try to build a carbon capture business, I would go buy
a carbon capture developer, I would buy Port
CO2 and NOx developer, and then I would go buy
somebody who's looking at the logistics or the back end of the
solution. And that's kind of who you have here on this
podcast. So it's really the full end to
(28:35):
end.
>> Birgit Liodden (28:35):
That's such an important perspective, I think,
because, I mean, there are a lot of, A lot of actors
out there looking at, onboard carbon,
capture, these days. But then one of the
main issues, just as we can see
with plastic and waste or with
renewable energy, is that if you don't have a
value chain to take it up and
(28:58):
handle it, then it doesn't really matter if you
manage to capture it. So, Michael, seen
from your perspective, I mean, you can partner with a lot of different
stakeholders here. How do you consider,
like, the key wins for a cruise line
that is looking at this as a way of,
removing and reducing their own footprints?
>> Michael Walker (29:18):
We operate a little bit of a benefit and, less of a challenge
than what Nate and Chase are doing because we have that
carb regulation, which has distinct fine
structures in that. And so there has to be compliance.
And so I come from the standpoint
almost like, man, I would love to see some kind of carbon tax
or something that would drive the value of
(29:38):
carbon in a way that the response that we
get, which is they have to use this
technology and so there has to be adoption of
it. And that's why I'm so interested in having these
conversations with Nate, Chase and others
around what their model looks like and
how we can partner together and what those synergies
are. I don't want to throw the industry under the
(30:00):
bus, though. on the commercial side, you have companies like
NY NYK who are saying, hey, we're going to go ahead
and do this no matter what. We have companies
like Amports who saying, hey, we operate terminals
on the east coast and we want this technology because our
customers are demanding it and Shell and
Toyota. So I think the worms turned a
lot, with regard to the industry saying, okay, it might
(30:22):
not be a regulation, it might not be regulated,
but we, it hits our mandates, internal
mandates, to go ahead and do this ourselves. And
that's super encouraging. Right. And we're seeing
that actually some of the folks are looking at taking us over to the UK
is really driven by the commercial side of it. So when
you look at a cruise, I think the footprint
(30:42):
people are trying to get to is they want to, I'm sure, you know,
address this need. there's a way for it
to, from a business standpoint, I'm sure to pass
those costs through and along. But
ultimately, you know, how do you solve this
problem of capturing carbon in the most
efficient way while at birth, without,
you know, screwing up operations or
(31:05):
lessening the experience? I think there's some
challenges to it, but I think also that it's, it's all
workable. and I think ultimately it's
something that if we close our eyes and open them up in five
years, it'll be a solution that's going to be there on the table because I
think it's inevitable that we're heading in this direction. And
now it's just a function of what's the best path
(31:25):
to get there.
>> Birgit Liodden (31:26):
For the cruise folks out there listening in
and watching here today, how can
ports and cruise lines team up with you?
And where do you see the
ideal partners
and regions? markets where
you think you should have capabilities
to move in early and really create
(31:49):
these amazing power couple, structures
ahead to help the cruise industry on this
important area.
>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth (31:56):
So for us, kind of, I think going off
of what Michael said, we are CO2
sequestration, so our best foot
forward as a go to market is in carbon compliance
markets. I would say federally in the United
States, I'm not sure if we'll have one. but
state by state, there will be compliance markets. And
(32:17):
I'd say California is one of the first movers
going there. So there's actually a lot of energy, for
example, from maritime industries
knowing that a compliance market, in California
is developing and that's really important for us. The
market for us and the product is big,
industrials feeling, really attacks coming in on their
balance sheet that they need to solve and the tax needs
(32:39):
to be significant enough. So the best
example and the most mature compliance markets of course
are in the eu where the carbon price is very
high. And so if you have very large
facilities emitting more in the hundreds
of thousands of tonnes of CO2 or in the maritime
industry and you have a price of carbon that's
$100 a tonne or increasing, as
(33:02):
Bloomberg is projecting in the next few
years, then you're really getting into the tens of
hundreds of millions of dollars of taxes, for your carbon
footprint. so really we know that,
and that obviously is kind of on full display.
So, we have received a lot of
interest, because we are emissions reduction, to
(33:22):
enable compliance from a CO2
perspective, in Europe, it also has
a lot of olivine, has a lot of seawater, and a lot of,
coastal industrial activities. So that's
really kind of a first, step for us. And really
as an example, the Port of Rotterdam, is
developing a lot of carbon, capture and storage
infrastructure. So it's really a port oriented in
(33:45):
that direction already. And that's really helpful
from a discussion standpoint. I think Chase,
Michael and I, when we need to go into very large industries,
we need to see who's oriented in that way already.
So it's very different if you're trying to convince someone to do
this versus those that are already looking for a solution. So
as a startup and smaller companies, it's very important.
And then we're excited to create models for other
(34:07):
industries to look at to see that it is working.
And so for us, I would say Europe, places like
California, Japan, Korea and Singapore are starting
their compliance market. So that's from our perspective,
it's really a CO2 compliance, perspective for us.
>> Birgit Liodden (34:22):
Thank you, Nate. Anything you guys want to add,
Chase and Michael?
>> Chase Dwyer (34:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think from a broader perspective when you
look at the regulatory. Michael's right. That the industry has been very slow
to move to adopt anything when it comes to, around
CO2. But you do have the CII
regulation in place today, which does affect some vessels depending
on the routes that they're operating. The cruise
industry operates very short, distance
(34:47):
routes relative to a lot of other vessels. So sometimes you do see
an impact there if you have older vessels. So that might be a pain
point for operators. and then you do have
a slow but developing regulatory market
around adopting something that's more
related to putting a price and a
levy on CO2 with it, at the IMO
level when that exactly happens, we'll see. but I
(35:09):
think that as Michael said, there's a pretty clear
path to this needed to happen and kind of
being buy in from the industry. There's
specifically to cruise line. I think what's interesting from our perspective is
that we've built a solution to be very modular so
that it doesn't require a super invasive
retrofit. You don't need to take a 30 metre
column and dig it into the funnel of a
(35:31):
vessel. We have these modules basically that can be
installed really anywhere adjacent or in
the engine room on a new build. And so we
provide a solution that can be more plug and
play for the cruise industry. And I think then
in addition what we're looking to do is
provide this end to end solution for ship owners, right, to
(35:52):
decarbonize. So it's not just the carbon capture technology on board,
it's the management of all the logistics that come after
it. And Nathan's solution is one part of those
logistics. Right. And they're trying to minimise that. You don't
need to do maybe a bunch of, you know, other trans
shipment or trucking or something like that.
but also looking at the monetization and bringing the scheme back
(36:12):
together, looking at financing and what's the right way to finance
these kind of package module units and really wrapping
it all up into kind of carbon capture as a service
and then looking at what you're doing on the port side, which is
what Michael's working on. So I think from our perspective it's
a cruise line that says, you know, there's this
explicit need for us to go in and reduce CO2 in
(36:32):
these solutions. You know, they can't find a good
alternative that can really get them to high levels of,
of CO2 reduction. And we provide a
relatively plug and play way to do that. that's going to be commercially
available here very soon.
>> Birgit Liodden (36:46):
Thank you Chase. Those are great points.
We will land in very soon
and round up this episode. But Michael, do you have
additional points that haven't been covered by Nathan or Chase or
that are different seen from your perspective on
the early movies market?
>> Michael Walker (37:03):
Yeah, I'm wildly encouraged. I think three years ago when we started
raising money, the quality of venture capital that we were
talking to that was focused on the carbon capture space
was tier one and they were the best.
And I was, I remember, you know, thinking to myself,
okay, this is exactly what it needs to get to where,
you know, we're going to have a successful market because you have
(37:23):
high quality venture capital putting money into
organisations and supporting them. So
places like Scape and Carbon Ridge, that's where all
this comes from. It starts bubbling up from having great
focused venture capital as well. And then I
think ultimately when we're able
to showcase the first carbon capture
(37:44):
at birth, I think then that shows to regulators, hey look,
this is real. When Chase and NATO are able to
demonstrate their product at scale and
the application working. Now, all of a sudden it
puts just this continual pressure on everybody.
And now regulators can point to it and they can
say, here's a technology that we can get right
(38:04):
regulation to, because Scape or Carbon
Ridge can support that. And there's a technology
there. So, again, I'm wildly encouraged. I
think that there's great resources behind, this path. And I
think that we're getting to a critical, mass point
where we can start to demonstrate
carbon capture at scale. And once we do that, then the
economics will come together, I believe.
>> Birgit Liodden (38:26):
Thank you so much. I think that enables us to
round off on a very positive note. And,
for the curious executives out there, eager to
learn more, make sure we catch up at
Seatrade trade at the 40th anniversary in
Miami. Nate will be there and we are a
bunch of amazing innovators from
(38:46):
around the world eager to land in with
Cruise. So thank you all of you
guys, and I'm really looking forward to following
your journeys ahead. Thank you.
For ctrade global 40th anniversary in
2025, we will also prepare the very first
(39:09):
edition of Tools Cruise Innovators, a
global overview of startups and innovators with
enabling solutions for cruise. Welcome
on board our voyage into the future and join
the wave. Sign up today.
Community.toolspawn.com.
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