S3 Ep2: S3:E2 Self Mentoring with Phil Sims

Today on the show, I welcome Phil Sims. Phil and I talk about self-mentoring. Can you go it alone? How to get the most out of your mentorship and the internal dialogue that causes us to fear failure and run from success. Phil's a 2010 graduate from the Seidman College of Business School of Accounting. He's been a CEO, worked in the public sector, and even done turnarounds as a business consultant. Phil's a friend of the program and has mentored many students. 

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to the Seidman Mentorship Podcast.
This is your captainspeaking on this show,
we navigate the voyage of lifethrough the lens of Lakers,
some who have just come aboard,and others who are well underway.
We will speak with experts who will showus the ropes, help us plot a course,
and recount exhilaratingtales of uncharted territory,
all while promoting lifelong learningagility and a culture of mentorship.

(00:28):
Today on the show, I welcome Phil Sims.Phil and I talk about self mentoring.
Can you go it alone?
How to get the most out of your mentorshipand the internal dialogue that causes
us to fear failure and run from success.
Phil's a 2010 graduate from theSeidman College of Business School of
Accounting. He's been a CEO,
worked in the public sector and even doneturnarounds as a business consultant.

(00:53):
Phil's a friend of the program andhas mentored many students. All right.
It's my honor and my pleasure towelcome back, uh, one of my mentors and,
and a good friend of theprogram. Phil Sims. Phil Ahoy,
and welcome back to the mentorship.
Good to be here, man.
Uh, you didn't get enough thefirst, uh, first time. Uh,
so we're going to bring you back asour resident expert on a few things,

(01:16):
and I always enjoy our conversations,
and as I've gotten to know youover the last, uh, year, two years,
um, I'm always enthralled and so are ourlisteners about the differences in our
styles. While we're bothsuccessful in business,
we do things differently and I love our,
I wouldn't call it a juxtaposed positionsbecause I don't think of them as

(01:38):
opposing. Um, I just think ofthem as almost complimentary,
and I kind of regret that wedidn't go into business together.
Still time, man. .
There's-.
Still time.
I'm kind of married toacademia now. Yeah, I, I,
I'm having too much fundoing what I'm doing. Uh,
not that I didn't have fun before, but,uh, this is pretty rewarding work as,

(01:59):
as you know, because you'reinvolved in this, uh, a lot.
So can you kind of take us, update uson, on what's going on with you and, um,
how you've been and,
and maybe a little bit about what you'vebeen doing with the mentorship program?
Sure. Happy to do that.Um, yeah, since last time,
so last we sat down, I was still theCEO of Integrity Tree Services. Uh,

(02:22):
I resigned about three and a half monthsago, um, to pursue another opportunity,
but just a quick flyby in my career so far.
Graduated from Grand Valley in 2010.
Did an internship with BDOout of Grand Rapids, and, uh,
was with the assurance practice as anauditor. Did that for six years. Um,
that was a really good run.

(02:43):
And when my wife and I wereexpecting our first son at,
seemed like a good timeto get off the road.
I was presented with anopportunity to join Integrity Tree,
which I did in a financialcapacity in 2015 to build out the
infrastructure of the business.
We had landed some large utilitycontracts and saw a lot of
potential to grow. We had about45 employees at the time, and, um,

(03:08):
long story short, two yearsin a finance capacity there.
And then five years as the CEO,
we grew up from 45 to 220 employees.
Sold at a hundred percent tothe employees last August, um,
through an ESOP transaction. And, um,
about March of this year was presentedwith a pretty cool opportunity to help

(03:31):
out a distressed business, whichhas its own really unique backstory.
Uh, but I'm with a commercial bakery now,
partnered with a co-investor ina bakery, turning that around.
So severely distressed.
We were burning about $30,000a week in cash in March,
and we've got it tosustainability. And I actually, uh,

(03:52):
just stepped out from our incumbent CEOthat I'm excited to have on board, um,
who's joining the team here.
So we've got a pretty bright future andgetting around distressed dysfunctional
businesses is actually prettyexciting, uh, from my perspective.
And we're really excitedabout the work we've done and,
and what the future looks like there.
So that's kind of a fly byon what I've been up to.

(04:15):
They're lucky, uh, they'relucky to have you. Uh,
tell us a little bit about what you'redoing with the mentorship and then I'm
going to dive right into,uh, our topic for today.
What I've been up to with mentorship.Um, yeah. So I'm on the, uh,
alumni affinity board and, um,
am essentially the liaison between theboard and the mentorship program. Um,

(04:37):
basically you make me look good by doinga really great job with the mentorship
program. Uh,
we have a lot of fun brainstormingtogether and coming up with different plan
designs and, uh,
I think many of the ideas are rootedin what we're going to discuss
coming up here on the podcast.
But just being thoughtful aboutthe students and the experience

(05:00):
that we desire for the students to have,
which is a value addexperience that's pretty low
calorie burn on their part. Pretty lowcalorie burn on the pro mentor part.
And that doesn't necessarily mean thereisn't a commitment and dedication of
time,
but that the time that is invested isactually something that both the pro

(05:22):
mentor and the mentee is passionate about.
And so it feels like it fills theirenergy buckets rather than pouring out.
Um, so it's been fun beingthoughtful with you about that.
We've seen a lot of growth, a lotof really positive feedback, uh,
significant uptick in events and reallyexcited about what the future has in
store.
Uh, likewise. And, uh, I, I'velearned so much from you and,

(05:46):
and you're helping shape the,the program. You also, uh,
mentor students directlylike one-on-one, right?
Yeah, that's right.
So you're telling me that if I'm astudent out there and I'm thinking about
this, that there is a possibility Icould be paired with somebody who,
CPA, been there, done that, been a CEO,
and now is basically beinga business consultant.

(06:08):
Yeah, definitely.
I'm, uh,
we're going to hold onto that and we'regoing to talk about that later when we
talk about the famous equationthat you and I came up with over a,
a napkin to talk about a differentway to think about mentorship.
So let's jump into this. The questiontoday that I want to address is,
is there such a thing as selfmentoring? Can you, can you go it alone?

(06:29):
And if you can, how do you do it?
And was that closer toyour path than my path,
which Gerry wandered around the buildingand looked for people who were willing
to help him?
Yeah,
so I read that question andimmediately felt some tension because
I think mentorship and self feel maybe not

(06:51):
completely mutuallyexclusive from one another,
but I don't know how you domentorship without feedback.
And self-awareness is somethingthat everyone is weak at
as a human, I believe. Um,
there's a lot of focus on emotionalintelligence and being empathetic
and being able to be a good listener,

(07:13):
but actually having a mirror for yourselfand building enough relational equity
with somebody else outside ofyourself to give you feedback is,
I think so critical that I, I don'tknow how you do self mentorship.
I think maybe personal development,personal growth, you know,
reading, listening to podcasts, uh,

(07:36):
pursuing your passions that arenaturally interesting to you and
going to work on why they'reinteresting, I think is,
is a really cool selfjourney that you can go on.
But when you start thinking aboutaccomplishing things in a community of
indivi-, individuals,
I don't know how you sharpen your skillsor your craft without human feedback.

(08:00):
Um, so I, I guess I wouldtake issue with the,
the concept of selfmentorship, self-improvement,
and, and from an awarenessof self-improvement,
engage with somebody else that overlapswell with your Venn diagram and your
style that can help you better grow into

(08:20):
who you are created to be and who you areas a, as somebody who is creative and,
and has beautiful thingsto do in the future.
It's interesting because as I talk topro mentors like yourself and I talk to
our students when they don't connectwell and I hear about it and usually it
comes up as ghosting.

(08:41):
So I can't get aholdof my professional mentor or I can't get ahold of
the student. Or we connected onceand then we never connected again.
When I dig into it, I'vediscovered something.
I'm going to go out there and saythat in my professional opinion,
there's two major mentorship styles.
There's task-based mentorshipand there's more of a discussion,

(09:02):
a platonic-based mentorship. I'm usingplatonic there to talk about the, the,
I'm using my philosophy minor fromGrand Valley to talk about having a
discussion. I would describe ourmentorship as discussion-platonic.
I like to talk and ramble.
You listen to me and then we identifywhat it is I'm trying to say because I
don't know what it is. And thenyou help me through it. Mm-hmm.

(09:24):
task-based mentorshipis if I came to you and said,
Phil, this is the problem. Andyou said, Gerry, read this book.
Talk to this person, listen to thispodcast and we'll meet in a week.
And what I find is I'll hear acomplaint from a pro mentor who says,
I met with my mentee the first time wedidn't meet again and they didn't take

(09:45):
any notes. Or I toldthem to read this book,
or I told them to go meet thisperson and they didn't do it.
And so that just didn't work.
The opposite thing I'll hear from thementee is I met with my mentor and I
really wanted to ask them about joiningthis fraternity or this sorority and
they didn't care about that. They said,
I really need to go to the careercenter and work on my resume.

(10:06):
So the two sides aren'tpicking a point forward.
And when I think aboutself mentoring and I agree,
I'm not sure it's somethingyou can do in an echo chamber,
I do think that there is a valuein learning what your style is
and identifying it.
And then I'm sure we're going toend up probably talking about this,
but vulnerability of saying, um,

(10:28):
if I was in that situation and youwere task-based mentor and said,
Gerry do these things, I'd be like, Phil,
that's not really what I want out of this.
I'm just really struggling and I kindof need somebody to vent and talk to,
and that's a vulnerability.
Whereas the opposite might be where thepro mentor might say who's task-based?
Hey Gerry, um, I'm a littlenervous about doing this.

(10:51):
I've never been a mentor before, so Ireally want to work on things that are my,
in my wheelhouse and my skillset andthese are the things that really helped me
succeed.
So I really need you to read this bookbecause I think it's going to help tee us
up for how I discovered this,that or the other thing. Yeah.
Did that resonate with youat all when student Phil was

(11:12):
going through this? Because we'vetalked about your story before.
A little bit about how youwere kind of like twisting the wind.
You're one of the few candidates in BDO,
BDO Seidman Seidman and SeidmanSeidman College of Business.
There's a connection here, right? So it's a big deal.
In Grand Rapids to work forBDO. Did all that resonate with you?
How did you do it?

(11:33):
So I didn't participate in thementorship program when I was in college.
But the reason-.
-And,
and I don't think there was an officialone here at Grand Valley at that time-.
-There might not have been, butto try and just connect the dots,
um, the reason when we first startedgetting to know one another, um,

(11:53):
I wanted to be involved in this was just,
I have such a recollectionof sitting across from
interviewers of CPA firms. Uh,
it was 2010. So there were,
there were an incredible amount ofcandidates looking for internships just
because of what the economy had done.

(12:14):
For those of you who don't know, 2008was a very big year in the economy.
Especially if you were in bankingor accounting. Yeah, yeah.
But the competition duringthat era was really intense.
And I bombed a couple interviews,mostly just because I was very,
in my head,
I didn't have the wherewithal to askfor help and really open myself up

(12:35):
to the polishing process of feedback. Um,
and I just remember the feeling I,
I sat down across from interviewers andthey would say, what do you want to do,
accounting or, uh, they wouldsay, auditor tax. And I'm like,
I actually don't really knowthe difference very well between the two of those.
And I think the unique spotthat mentorship would've met me

(12:58):
in pre those interviewshad it been a thing,
would've been sitting down and havingcoffee with somebody who's already been
down the path 10 years. I couldhave shared my vulnerabilities with,
I could have shared my insecurities withand they could have given me feedback,
could have given me some vision for howto approach those questions or could

(13:20):
have already helped me explore myselfwell enough to know how to confidently
answer that question. So that's,
that's why I was really keen and excitedto be involved in this is something,
is what may sound as basicin air quotes as that need
is a mission accomplished throughthe mentorship program as far as I'm

(13:41):
concerned.
Sp when I hear you talk aboutthat and I think about that,
that need to know in an interview,because I bombed a few interviews too,
and obviously the point when you hadprobably admitted that you didn't know the
difference between those two majorconcepts is when the bomb went off.
And you probably saw it inthe people's faces. And,
and I did that too cause I felt likeI'm the new guy, I'm supposed to,
I'm fresh out of college, I have adegree, I should know these things.

(14:04):
And later on in lifeI remember being in an
interview for a promotion at thecompany and internal promotions were,
it was a four to five interview processand I was going to go to sales and sales
was the tip of the spear, made themost money, got the company car.
I mean this was it.
And I remember the maturity differenceI had between the first time I

(14:27):
interviewed for sales and the secondtime, because the first time they're like,
tell us about, you know, a time inyour life where your challenged.
And I'm like, I always overcomeall challenges. You know, I'm-.
-Yeah.
Uh, I'm it, I'm the guy.
And the second time I rememberI knew the interviewer,
I'd been with the company 10years and they asked me, um,

(14:48):
interview question number, I think it'scalled interview question number 13,
you can go out on the internet and lookat interview questions and you can come
to the career center and they'll tellyou some of the standard interview
questions. And the question was,
tell us why you're thebest candidate for the job.
Younger new student Gerrywould've said, well duh,
I mean of course I'm the best candidatefor the job. Older, more mature,
Gerry decided to say,I don't know that I am.

(15:10):
And I remember the interview sensinga weakness, plunged in with their,
their dagger for thecoup de grace and said,
well how could you say such athing? How could you come in here,
this is the final interview,
come in here and say you're not thebest candidate for the job? And I said,
I'm not saying I'm not thebest candidate for the job.
I'm just not arrogant enough to say thatwithout knowing the other candidates

(15:31):
that I am or why I am because I knowother people that have applied for this
job, which was true. And I know you gota stack of great candidates over there.
The only thing I can tell youis that I've been here 10 years,
everybody in this room knows me andknows what I've done and knows about my
passion for taking care of our customers.
And if that's the kind ofguy you want, um, that's it.
And I remember thinking, alright,

(15:52):
you've jumped the shark and the bomb hasgone off and I'm going to walk out of
the, you know, flattened fallouton fire room and that's it.
And the hiring manager met me at the doorand shook my hand and later on he told
me that was the answer that got me thejob. A combination of vulnerability,
a combination of awareness. Butwhen I hear you talk about it,
and I'm going to go back and talk aboutself mentoring again a little bit,

(16:16):
I think part of theself mentoring process,
and I'm not saying selfmentoring replaces mentoring,
but maybe it's the precursorto mentoring is number one,
having the awareness to um, be vulnerable,
admit what you don't know and then share,
I think maybe those are the three conceptsof self mentoring to get ready to see

(16:36):
a mentor.
Because if you're listening and you geta chance to sit down with a Phil Sims or
any of our great professionals inthe program who are likely alumni,
they're giving up theirtime because they care.
But most importantly don't beintimidated because they're
mentoring because they missed something.
Almost 100% I can guaranteethey missed something

(16:57):
and they want to share it withyou so you don't have to miss it.
Is there resonance in that for you?
Yeah, I mean that is, that to me,when I talked about Venn diagrams,
that's where the timeinvested by the pro mentor or
the mentee gives a return above

(17:21):
the energy required for therelationship is knowing that you
helped somebody else not have to encounterthe same fact pattern or scenario
without being equipped with what you'vebenefited from as a result of your
experience. So yeah,for sure that resonates.
And I think that's wherethe real value comes from.

(17:41):
And you talked a little bit aboutthe dynamics between pro mentor
and mentee.
And the interesting thing aboutthose scenarios is they both parties
lacked, you could call itvision, which does two things.
It captures the head and the heart.
And I think we want to be a part ashumans of any endeavor that captures the

(18:03):
head and the heart times a finiteresource we can't get back and we want to
dedicate, um, our head and our heart toendeavors that we know we can belong to.
And so creating that sense of belongingbetween the pro mentor and the mentee is
critical as a first step.
And the assumption that the promentor knows what this roadmap looks

(18:24):
like, maybe does or does not articulate,
it may or may not align with whatthe pro mentee is looking for.
And then we can flip the script to thepro or to the mentee and basically say
they were looking for something.
And whether that's articulated or notis going to set the relationship up for
success or failure.

(18:45):
And if there's this preconceivednotion for what this looks like as a
well-traveled path and you just hidebehind this is what I think I'm supposed
to do or what Gerry saidI was supposed to do, um,
I think you miss out on the real heartand nature of the mentorship program,
which is having a realhuman need for connection.

(19:05):
Having a desire to eitherthrough the relationship or
future state for yourself,
engage your head and your heart inwhat you're endeavoring to do or better
understand what you want to engage yourhead and heart in through perhaps trial
and error and, and otherconnections to the pro mentor of,
I think maybe I wanted toget into, um, you know,

(19:27):
personal finance consulting orI want to get into M and A work,
I want to get into tax work, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera.
You aren't supposed to know until youhave that direct experience and you can
ask the questions.
But I think our inner dialogue makesus feel like we're supposed to know.
And then we just operate in this realmof assumptions for what this mentorship

(19:50):
program is about and whatit's supposed to mean. And,
and I think that's ironically whereit's most engineered to fail is just not
spending adequate time articulatingwhat both parties, not one,
but both parties are hoping to accomplish.
And I just love the conceptthat when we sit down, you know,

(20:11):
stuff I don't, and I know stuff you don't.
And real value comes fromteaching each other and learning
and expanding our minds together.Um, and being creative. I mean,
there's real joy that's the head andheart dynamic of there's creativity that
exists in that. Um,

(20:31):
so I'll get off my soapbox,
but I just think that that'ssuch a critical part and such a critical step that
if it's skipped over out of insecurityor fear or just perhaps we aren't setting
the program up clearly enough to havethat be core to the heart of what's
going on, which I've attended yourtraining and it's talked about.

(20:52):
But that's, that's such acritical element of what,
what someone is hoping to accomplishand it's collective and mutual.
It's the pro mentor and the menteeboth hoping to accomplish something and
uh, that's got to be wellunderstood for it to be successful.
I feel like I jumped the tracks alittle bit on what you were asking for,
but that's-.
-I loved it. It was, uh, it wasa great description I think,

(21:15):
and you're providing really good roadmapfor I think the mentor and the mentee
and it tees up very nicely. The next, uh,
part of our discussion I wantto talk about, and that's,
you and I spent kind of a year whenyou volunteered to be the liaison to
mentorship. So for folks at home,
there's members that are onthe alumni board for Seidman.
These are all Seidman alums likePhil, they sit down and they say,

(21:38):
we're going to dedicate resources,
i.e. Person or persons to eachendeavor at the university.
So some folks are workingwith alumni in the classroom,
some people are working with studentorganizations that are related to Seidman.
Uh, some people are working onthe the Seccia breakfast series,
which is our most popular eventat Seidman and Phil, right?
What was he saying? He said,
I'm going to work with Gerry on thismentorship program, which was new,

(22:00):
which I appreciate. Um, we're sittingin a coffee shop one day having our,
our biweekly meeting and we'retalking about the difference between
our styles extrovertand introvert. If you,
that's kind of a blunt instrument totalk about our styles, but it's fair.
And we came up with this equation and Iremember how excited you were because it
seemed to make sense to you. And andwe've talked about it several times.

(22:24):
We had, kind of fun factoringin this equation as well.
So for those of you listening at home,
the equation is,
what I want (WIW) timeswhat they have (WTH)
equals or is greater than theenergy it takes to connect.

(22:44):
And what that means isif I know what I want,
I want a red Ferrari because
magna Pi is back on TV and red Ferrari'sare cool, even though my stature,
I would never fit in a Ferrari.
And I know Phil has a Ferrari and Idon't know how he got it. That's a,
that's a one v onerelationship. I want a Ferrari.

(23:07):
I know a guy who's got a Ferrari and Iknow Phil because he's a, he's a friend.
That would take verylittle energy to connect.
I think that's a great example of apositive and somebody thinking in their
mind, well why would I do a mentorshipprogram where it gets a little bit more
nebulous, a little morecomplicated is I want a job,

(23:30):
what kind of job? Idon't know, I want a job.
Is that kind of how you feltthe equation worked and,
and how it made sense toyou? Or am I off base here?
Yeah. Uh, just to back up forcontext, probably one of the most fun
memories I have of that coffee wasyou talking about how your approach

(23:52):
to mentorship would be to have studentsprint off a bunch of business cards and
hand them to professors and buildtheir network in a very proactive,
outgoing way.
And I just remember youpassionately explaining that this,
this is the approach that you recommendand that would work really well.
And I was like cringing inside becausethat would be probably one of the

(24:13):
greatest turnoffs to having you as a promentor is if you're telling me to hand
out business cards,
like pretty much this is over and likeI'm not probably going to be listening
anymore.
And so how do we make that a thing wherepeople have permission to be like maybe
style-wise there's a misalignment?
That's where we got intothe introvert-extrovert was just talking about maybe

(24:35):
there are some things that make youcringe about certain styles and just being
able to talk about that is actuallyengineering their relationship for success
more than just like you said,
in a very blunt style thinking aboutpersonality types and thinking that
um, just because the pro mentor is alittle bit further down the runway,
they have it all figured out. I mean,personalities are personalities.

(24:56):
It's not like just because you have 10more years in your own personality that
you're going to better overlap withsomebody of a different personality.
So yeah, back to the equation, which, um,
it must have been the caffeine that madeus excited about this because I'm not a
huge fan of like math equations andthings of that nature. Um, but yeah,
I, I guess just to unpackthat a little bit, um,

(25:21):
which by the way, the red Ferrari Iwould have is probably in my basement.
It's a matchbox car that my five yearolds probably wrecked in their sprinkler
or something like that. Asa student, you're very busy,
you're in a new environment,
you have positive andnegative stressors going on,
and you're doing thiscalculation in your mind of,
is my committing to this programgoing to be worth my time?

(25:45):
Because it's another stressorfor me, positive or negative.
If you're outgoing and it's another thingto do and it makes you feel good as a
human, maybe it's, maybe it'spositive, it still costs you time.
So it could be a positive stressor.
If you're introverted or you'vebeen in the program before or
whatever and you're, you're feelinglike it's a negative stressor,

(26:07):
then what do both of those factpatterns have in common? It's you're,
you're doing this calculation of iswhat I'm going to get out of this
going to be worth whatI'm going to put in?
And so we started playing withthe idea of what I want being,
if I just stop there and kind of playboth sides of the coin. So the pro,

(26:28):
let's start with the mentee.
So the mentee may want a job orthey may want clarity on which
direction they want to go. Financein general is very general,
so I want to better understandwhat all of the finance
field offers. Banking. I mean youcan get into that in insurance,

(26:48):
you can get into that in, uh,mergers and acquisition houses.
You can get into that in consulting.There's just such a CPA work,
there's such a vast arrayof what finance can serve.
So let's say that's yourdesire. And then let's say-.
-Can I pause you one second there? WhatI love what you did there is, so the,

(27:11):
the WIW what I want part of the equation,
you went from a job and thenyou hardened that target. You,
you got more specific.
You made that part of the equationmore powerful by just saying, okay,
so pre the mentee, getting with the,the mentor, if your goal is nebulous,
like I want a job. Yeah.Spending time thinking about,

(27:31):
I don't know if this jobexists or I don't know if this,
maybe it's the lifestyle, the job maybeyou think merger and acquisition is-,
your cruising around the countrybuying, selling companies. Yeah.
That may or may not be true.The more you harden that,
the more that you reinforcethe WIW part of the equation.
And that makes it more powerfulwhen we get to multiply that by what
they have.
Correct. Yeah. That's super fair. Imean, in my mind you're double clicking,

(27:55):
right? So you have this aspirationand then it's like, why, okay,
everyone's going toanswer the why different.
So let's say I want to do mergersand acquisitions. Okay, why? Well,
I'd like to own a businessone day. Why? Well, I like,
I like the idea of havingautonomy for my time.
I also have a high risk appetite.

(28:18):
I also have people in my family that, um,
have been entrepreneurial and haveencouraged me. Okay, why? You know,
you can keep going-.
-The five whys. Yeah.
So professors that teach organizationalbehavior are very excited and they're
clapping right now.Yeah, because they're-.
-Yeah, it's a thing.
It's a real application we usein business to make decisions,

(28:38):
but what you're saying is youcould do it in your own life.
A hundred percent. So that's,that's the what I want. Um,
so now we're flipping to theother side of the coin. So there,
there are pro mentorsthat exist that genuinely
want to help somebodyanswer that question,
but it requires articulatingthat question well enough to,

(28:59):
for you to be able to pair theright formula together to have a
successful outcome. And so thetools in your toolbox are sharper
in direct correlation to how clear whatboth parties are looking for in that
equation. And by the way, you're doingthat times like hundreds of people.
So that's not a small task. Thesharper the better. The pro mentor,

(29:24):
they may just be like, hey,
I remember sitting across fromcrow and bombing a question and
that feeling was so bad thatI actually will get something.
What I want is for somebody to nothave to relive that experience.
So now you have this what I want,and they're not the same. The,

(29:46):
the formula, what I want isnot the same for both parties.
That's the beauty of where the overlapexists. So, and then what they have,
okay, I think that's fairly obvious.
So there's a professional who's been downthe path, they've had that experience,
which helps them understandwhat they want to give back.
What they have is experiencein a specific area.

(30:09):
And to the degree the mentee isclear with what they're looking for,
what they have is a need.
And I think if that equationis well articulated,
then you're,
you're in a position where both partiescan come together and the rewards they
get from meaningful human conversations

(30:32):
can be above the calories required that
they're putting in.
You're making me hungry.
Calorie.
So that's-.
-Yeah.
Yeah. I, but, and, and no, that,that's a good way of describing it.
And I would also say that as thementee, if my side of the equation,
what I want is weak andI know that I can also

(30:54):
harden the target on what they have.
So if I ask myself the fivewhys of, I want a red Ferrari,
and that boils down to I wantto live a certain lifestyle.
I had a,
a uncle who was a mentor in mylife for many years and he was in
the insurance business and I desperatelythought I wanted to be in the insurance

(31:15):
business. And I did right out of,uh, my graduation at Grand Valley.
It turns out I didn't want tobe in the insurance business.
I wanted Uncle John's lifestyle.I thought the lifestyle was
possible because of his job ininsurance. I learned later on,
it could be any job,
could have been the lifestyle and aswe talk about work-life balance, but

(31:39):
the idea of what he had wassomething I thought I wanted.
And so my side of theequation could be weaker.
So if you're a mentee out theregoing, well, I don't know what I want,
that's okay. Find somebody,
and maybe it has nothing to do withthe job. Maybe it's their lifestyle,
maybe it is a car.

(31:59):
But ask yourself the five whys and thenask yourself if it's worth the energy to
connect. And the lastpart of the equation,
is it greater than theequal to the energy connect?
Is it worth it for me to do it?
There are a million opportunities at GrandValley and West Michigan community to
network a networking event to me isnothing more than me going there.
And maybe I have solved theequation, maybe I haven't. But the,

(32:23):
everybody's there to connect anyway.If you come to a, a mentorship event,
and maybe it's not one of ourprofessional development events,
maybe it's mentorship movie night.
I get pros all the time that ask mewhy am I supposed to come to mentorship
movie night? If you wantto. Is there an outcome?
Yeah. But you,
you're telling me you're probably atask-based mentor and you want me to tell
you how it is.

(32:44):
Maybe it's developing that relationshipand then talking about a great film that
opens up a new dimension of yourdialogue. Me being a dialectic, uh,
mentor that gets you to that why,
or get you through that piece. Andthat's why I think this is a very,
you know, tactile wayof thinking about it.

(33:05):
So if you are more of an internal personand you're listening to this podcast
and you start writing that out and writethose five whys you've come equipped
and I think any mentor, and ifyou're a mentor, you do it too.
I think that would be fair.
And I think it would be powerfuland maybe even a little vulnerable.
So let me cast it back, Phil.Isn't that self mentoring?

(33:29):
I think, I think it is
because it involves others.So when I read self mentoring,
what I envisioned was this solo walk downa path through the woods where you're
uniquely growing. Um,
from a mentorship perspective,

(33:50):
what you're saying in my mind involvesothers. So I think that's the,
the reason that, yeah, that makes sense.I mean it has to involve others though,
because it's that interaction withothers and then that feedback loop that
really helps
the mentorship cycle work.

(34:10):
You can't, I don't, I don't know howyou absent, a pro mentor could say, oh,
I'm like on your resume, let's sit downacross from an interviewer and say, oh,
well I did a self mentorshipprogram at Grand Valley.
Well what does that involve?Well, I read a lot of books.
That doesn't really work.
Like if you're an employer interviewingfor a job and you're looking for
somebody who's really leaning in totheir weaknesses or really leaning

(34:35):
into, hey, I identified that thisis an area I'm really weak and I'm,
I'm getting after whatever thefeedback is, the accountability is,
the deeper conversation is to helpme get to the other side of that.
I think that's,
that's the outcome of the mentorshipprogram that a solo journey can't,
can't provide these.
Great samurai movies, youknow, Yojimbo, San Giro,

(34:55):
all the Kura-sala stuff, right? So
I came across readings of the masters,
Miyamoto Mui, right? Greatest,
arguably greatest Japaneseswordsman ever was against
training with a master.
His idea of training was you get a swordand you swing the sword and the sword

(35:20):
will teach you everything you needto know about being a sword. So,
or being a swordsman,
when I go back and I think about thisand I was doing the same thing you were,
I was challenging thisidea of self mentoring.
There's gotta be a way forsomebody to do it on their own.
But the sword was the mentor. So Ithink of I want to be an entrepreneur.
Well then go start a business, butyou're not doing an echo chamber.
Now your customers become your mentors.

(35:41):
Beause they're going to tell youespecially what you're doing wrong, right?
Your landlord or your real estateagent, when you buy this property,
put the business in your suppliers.These all become your mentors.
That is a path, but it isn't an,
an echo chamber of self,uh, mentoring process.

(36:02):
And that will work just like the swordsgoing to give you feedback if you swing
the sword every day. To becomethe master. And I think that's why
rather than self mentoring, what we'retalking about is pre mentoring, right?
I'm talking about preparing myself.
So we have a whole system on this calledlife crafting. It's an awesome seminar.
Everybody in the program is invited toattend and it's about sitting down and

(36:25):
thinking through kind of the five whyswe have prompts and we ask about you and
envisioning your future state, butwithout limit. What is it you want?
What is the life you want tohave? Job is part of that,
but what's the life you want to have?
And then you've answered that WIW part,

(36:45):
we can help you with the WTHpart, what they have, right?
So tell me what it is you wantand what connect you to somebody.
And that's the beauty of mentorshipprogram and the energy to connect,
fill out our form in the form. You, you,
we ask you what you want and then I pairyou with somebody who has probably that

(37:05):
or something similar. I'mmaking it as easy as possible,
uh, to connect you with theresources, uh, for people. So
thanks for that.
Yeah.
Now let me tee up a tough one for you.
What do you wish students todaywould do that they don't do?
Uh, fail more aboutthat which is outside in

(37:30):
a structured environment.
I think failure sounds really scary. And
what I've learned post-college ismy richest moments are moments of
really deep failure. And
the path of wisdom isnot avoiding failure.

(37:52):
You don't become a wiser personbecause you avoided all failure.
Because as fallible humans,we are going to fail. So just
unpacking your relationshipwith failure as a student and
understanding that if you can failquickly and you can recover quickly
and you can master that skill andyour relationship with failure.

(38:15):
Even small baby steps with what if I dothe mentorship program and what if my
pro mentor is really hard on meand I walk away feeling miserable?
That could feel likefailure. Um, but I probably,
one of the most meaningful thoughtsthat I've ever received on failure
is that failure is anevent. It's not a person.

(38:37):
And I think that this idea that if I fail,
it then confirms I'm afailure in your psyche.
You already believe that you're afailure. And I, I think that the,
the mentorship program in collegein general with so much newness,
by definition, with newness,
you have so much opportunityto potentially fail.

(39:00):
And if you heard me say failure and youthought about it in like catastrophic,
devastating ways, perhaps rethinkthis continuum of failure,
which could be catastrophic orit could be tiny little ways.
So how does the student do that? I mean,how, how does someone practice that?
I think putting, just putting yourselfout there and if, if, if you can work on

(39:23):
yourself, uh,
in your relationship with yourselfand your internal narrative.
I heard it put best a couple weeks agowhen I was sitting down with somebody I
really admire and he said, Phil,
if you are sitting with your internalmonologue right now and you were having a
cup of coffee,

(39:44):
would you stay at the table if yourinternal monologue was outside of you
sitting across from you? Like,
do you talk to yourself in a waythat you enjoy the company of
your internal monologue?
If it were separate and distinct fromyou sitting across the table from you,
that was a special day of mebeing pretty critical of myself.

(40:06):
And so the answer wasno. And it's like, okay,
well if you have controlover that to a degree,
are you controlling whatyou're putting into your mind?
Are you controlling the waythat you're treating yourself?
Because you would nevertreat somebody else that way.
So like why are you killing your energywith your internal monologue of what
that looks like? And I think that

(40:27):
there's some puzzle pieces there thatyou can figure out how to put together
that will help you to rebuildyour relationship with failure.
And if, if your internal monologue isnot contingent on acing the test and
running the fastest mile anddoing your best bench press ever,
and you know,

(40:48):
if your life's contingentand your internal monologue's contingent on just this
continuum of success, it's, it's,
it's a, I think that the way that thatsocial contract works with yourself is,
is going to result in failure at somepoint because there are limits on
how far you can go asan individual building,

(41:09):
building the way you thinkabout your life out. So rethink,
I'll try to land the plane on all this.
So rethink failure and expose yourself
to scenarios where you may not get an A,
whatever that is.
If it's having a conversationwith somebody that you've sat next to in class and

(41:30):
thought like 30 times,maybe I should just say hi,
but I for some reasonfeel a little bit awkward.
Like just have the conversation.
You are as somebody who is a person,
not the failure event. So failureis an event, not a person.
You're exposing yourself to an eventwhere as a person who's not a failure but

(41:54):
a creative being, something cool couldcome from that. And, and you know,
we talk about networkingto me, I heard it,
I heard it said once opportunityis attached to a human,
every opportunity is attached to a human.
If you're desiring an opportunity andyou understand what you want well enough,
expose yourself tohumans that can help you

(42:16):
and, and do it with a mindset ofI am a human, I'm not a failure,
failure, yeah, as anevent it could happen,
but it's not going to forever bruise meand wreck me to the point where I'm just
going be completely onthe roadside out of fuel.
Build up your inner-, inner monologue,build up the way that you treat yourself,
put yourself around peoplethat are going to love you,

(42:38):
are going to encourage you,
are going to help you also shape thatinternal monologue on how you're talking
to yourself. And from that,from that network if you will,
you can continue to grow your networkand put yourself around humans that are
going to really influence youin a positive way. And a lot of,
a lot of people who are in collegethat ask me, well, you know,

(43:00):
should I do this? The salary'sthis, um, the travel's this, the,
uh, type of work I'm going be doing?
Is this my number one questionthat I both ask myself
and I ask anybody else becauseit's really impacted me. Well,
and this may be helpful for somebody,is stop and look at the people,

(43:22):
the people you put your yourself or aroundare going to affect the trajectory of
your life and your career more thanthe salary of the position that you're
first encountering. Sothink about the people,
think about how you feel around them,
think about how they make you feel anddefinitely make sure that's a variable.
It doesn't have to be like the onlyvariable because if the job doesn't pay

(43:46):
anything and it, there's no upwardmobility, I'm not saying like just go
be with people that are, you know, these,
these gurus of making you feel good,but just look at their lives and,
and are the lives that they have built 10,
15 years down the road or five years downthe road or three years down the road,
does that look like where you see yourselfand what you would like your life to

(44:10):
look like?
If so then definitely make sure you'reweighing and balancing that in your set
of considerations.
What I hear you say is practicing thisis doing something outside your comfort
zone and there's ready-madeopportunities in the university.
Is your opportunity as a Petridish, I think to experiment,

(44:32):
experiment, um,
trying ways of your personality andseeing how they've mesh with others. Um,
trying opportunities, tryingcareers, trying different degrees.
Uh,
Gerry says it's okay if you change yourdegree if you know why you're changing
it, but what I also hear you saying,
is if there's a ready madeopportunity with very low

(44:54):
barrier to entry, highreturn possibility and
a safety net for failure,I'll use air quotes.
Let me introduce the Seidman,the mentorship program.
I would say the program's workingbecause we're wrestling with
accessibility and we'rewrestling with the core why

(45:17):
of the program in that we'renot just thinking about this as
another thing to do. We, we actually,
rather than it just beinganother thing to do, we want it,
we want it to be an experience whereyou're met both as the pro mentor
and as the mentee andthinking about where you are

(45:40):
and what year after.
And designing the program to beagile enough that one size doesn't
have to fit all is why I wouldsay I think it's working.
And I think that you're doingan incredible job of listening
and responding to feedback,
both good and bad or positiveand negative or whatever,

(46:03):
however we want to label it. Andtrying to iterate this thing and,
and having a growth mindset aroundthe mentorship program that the,
the end goal is not for Gerry toreceive all positive feedback.
The end goal is for the majorityof the participants in the program
to be able to say, yeah, that at,

(46:24):
at a human level was reallyhelpful to me in a way that
the core syllabus of my finance
class didn't.
And I think Grand Valley understandsthere is that need and it does desire
to meet that need in a thoughtfulway and in a human way because

(46:46):
the academic rigor and the requirements of
a class are critical.
But absent the balance of that humanelement of how do you then translate this
knowledge that I'm building up and thishuman potential that I'm investing in by
growing myself, how do I thentranslate that to the marketplace?

(47:09):
And I think that the mentorshipprogram is the answer to that question.
Thank you for that.
And we absolutely couldn't do itwithout co-mentors like you alumni like
you who,
who care and behalf of thementorship program on behalf of Grand
Valley, on behalf of the Siemen Collegeof Business. Thank you, uh, Phil.

(47:29):
And thanks to all of our pro mentorswho take the time to come back and care
and really, really spend genuinetime with these students.
I know our pro mentors out there, um,they do this because they want to do this.
They don't do this because they thinkthey're great and they need to stand on
top of a hill and shout it. They'veall been there and done that.

(47:53):
And I think that is theheart of the program and the,
the culmination from BillSeaman's time of having Grand
Valley be a repository forgreat citizens for West Michigan
and great workers for thebusinesses. It really pays off here.
And I think I've said it before, thisis what makes Grand Valley unique.
That's what makes our program unique.

(48:14):
I've never called aprofessional and had them say no
when I said, there's a student, this isthe specific student I'm reading their-,
this intake form and theyneed you. I've never had a,
a businessperson say, a pro mentor, sayno. I've had him say not this semester,
but I've, I've never heardanybody say no. And that's, I,

(48:36):
I'm pretty sure that's unique in all thementorship programs. I talked to you,
we don't have that. We have a veryunique thing going on here. So, uh, Phil,
thanks for your time today.Uh, I appreciate you, um,
as a human first and foremost.You're a great human being, uh,
but also a good friend of theprogram, good friend to me and,
and a mentor and I, I really appreciatethat. Thanks for coming today.

(48:58):
Yeah. And thanks for all you'redoing. It's been a joy and it's fun to
see where this has gone and I'm reallyoptimistic about the future and look
forward to continuing tobuild our relationship and build the mentorship program
together. Appreciate it.
Thank you for sailing along on thisepisode of the Seidman Mentorship Podcast.
For more information on the SeidmanSchool of Business Mentorship Program at

(49:21):
Grand Valley State University, setyour heading to www.gvsu.edu/Seidman.
If you have a story to tell,know someone we should interview,
have questions or comments, emailus at go, the number two, gv
biz spelled b i z at gvsu.edu.

(49:46):
Until next time,
keep a weathered eye on the horizonand we wish you fair winds so
long.