S3 Ep3: S3:E3 Professional Development and Mentorship with Professor Leslie Lynch

Today on the show, I welcome Professor Leslie Lynch. Professor Lynch is an affiliative practice at Grand Valley State University, Seidman College of Business, where she instructs undergraduate and graduate students. Few instructors have as much professional experience as Professor Lynch. She talks about making difficult business decisions as an executive, shares experiences, and tells students what they need to know about today's world in business. She even hits a few hard balls out of the park talking about work-life balance and the realities of being an executive. She shares ideas on how to use and find mentors, grow, learn, do, and be. 

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to the Seidman Mentorship Podcast.
This is your captain speaking on the show.
We navigate the voyage of lifethrough the lens of Lakers,
some who have just come aboard,and others who are well underway.
We will speak with experts who will showus the ropes, help us plot a course,
and recount exhilaratingtales of uncharted territory,
all while promoting lifelong learningagility and a culture of mentorship.

(00:26):
Today on the show, I welcomeProfessor Leslie Lynch.
Professor Lynch is an affiliativepractice at Grand Valley State University,
Seidman College of Business,
where she instructs undergraduateand graduate students.
Few instructors have as much professionalexperience as Professor Lynch.
She talks about making difficultbusiness decisions as an executive,
shares experiences,
and tells students what they need toknow about today's world in business.

(00:50):
She even hits a few hard balls out ofthe park talking about work-life balance
and the realities of being an executive.
She shares ideas on how touse and find mentors, grow,
learn, do, and be.
Professor Leslie Lynch. Welcome tothe Seidman Mentorship podcast, ahoy,

(01:11):
welcome aboard with our nauticalpun theme, which we do all the time.
If you've listened to anyof the other episodes, uh,
you know what you'rein for and you know me,
so I think you know what you're in for-.
-I'm ready.
-Um, as full disclosure, uh,
you are one of my instructors in theMBA program here at Grand Valley,
so it's an honor. Um, and we'llsee if I learned anything.

(01:31):
I hope so. We'll see.
-From you. So, um, when youwere teaching, uh, my cohort,
I remember you always told us tostart a presentation with a story,
so I'll prompt you, uh, likeI do on all the episodes.
Tell us about your Laker journey thus far.
Oh, such a great question. So,
I don't think many people know that Iactually have been on this campus for

(01:53):
about 10 years. So yeah, people don'trealize that I didn't know that.
I know because I was in my corporatelife running a company and I
did adjunct faculty workfor about seven years
before I joined. I taught managerialaccounting two 13 undergrads,
and I did that one semester,well, two semesters a year. Um,

(02:14):
and just did that on top of myregular day job of, you know,
in corporate America. So,I joined Grand Valley.
I had always intended when I turned55 that I was going to leave my
big corporate busy, crazy,
hectic life behind and hopefully havean opportunity to make a difference in
other people's lives and rise upother leaders to do great work and run

(02:39):
interesting companies. And so around 55,
I left my corporate life and I, um,
joined Grand Valley and startedas a visitor and am now an
affiliate faculty ofpractice. I teach, um,
undergrad courses in theMBA, in the executive MBA,

(03:01):
I do some of our corporateeducation. Um, so full-time,
little bit of everything.
You have a varied background when itcomes to business and would take a whole
nother podcast probablyto go through that.
But I know from havingyou as an instructor,
you've done everything from banking,you've done a lot of restructuring,
and I assume with that you've madedifficult business decisions and

(03:24):
had to execute them. It's not like yousat in the Ivory Tower and said, hey,
yeah, we have to reduceour workforce by X,
but then you had to go out anddeliver the bad news to employees. So,
you've been in a lot ofthese situations that aren't
necessarily scriptable.Is that fair to say?
Fair to say? I,
I hope that when I can share some ofthose stories and experiences with others,

(03:44):
that it's not a script.It is a what works here,
but I've done, I, I,
it's easy to remember all the hardstuff that I've done in my career.
What I try really hard to focus on isI got to do some amazing things in my
career as well. I think the toughest,
I think that I had two probablytough times in my career,

(04:06):
but the one that I share the mostis the great recession in 2008,
Muni Finance Investment Bankin Chicago, publicly held, um,
lost position due to the, youknow, crash. It was all bad. And,
um, a ton of how do we getthis company back making money?

(04:27):
Um, the CEO and I worked very closelytogether with a bunch of other people,
of course, but I was responsiblefor the cost savings initiative
as part of our restructuring toget us back fitted to first break
even, and then, you know, makingsome money. And that was tough work.
That was tough work.

(04:47):
I know we've, we've talkedbefore and I know that you,
I think fair, it was fair for me to say,you identify more introverted, right?
So you spend energy,
and I've seen you come to class and I'veseen you come with your roller bag and
your coffee in hand. And I'veseen you and Professor Leonard,
who was on this show a couple,um, episodes ago, the same.
You fire yourself up forclass, you do your thing,

(05:10):
and then I know you go home and I, Ithink you walk your dog, right? And,
and you're, you're, you're done withpeople for the day, right? You're,
that's your recharge.
How does somebody who'sintroverted like that do a,
a mass laugh where you're in a meetingwhere you're, you're terminating people?
What is that like? And then how do you,

(05:30):
how do you create the space to where I,
I think I would probably cry and wantto hug every single person and follow up
with them every day. You can't do that.So how do you build that resiliency and,
and maybe that boundaryto just get your job done?
I think the job is a, youknow, combination of both.
The easy part is just looking at theP and L and saying, we've got to cut.

(05:52):
And if I cut this many people,I save this much money.
And if I cut this many more, Iget to break even. And, um, I,
that's the easy part of the job.
The hard part is I've got humanbeings on the other side of that,
and I am responsible for delivering, um,
tough messages or sharing with managersthat are going to in turn deliver tough
messages,

(06:13):
always with the rule ofthumb that I promise that I
will always take as much time departingsomebody as I took hiring them.
And that takes a lot of, um, patience.
I have helped people write their resumes.
I will practice interviewing with them.
I will do whatever I've made contactswith them where I know they're going to be

(06:35):
successful somewhere else.Um, I think that it's a,
it is a hard thing to letsomeone go from a role.
If you think of all of the people intheir lives that that's going to affect,
um, it's not as easy as just saying,you know, we need to get to break even.
We're eliminating your job and you'releaving. Yeah. That's the easy part.

(06:57):
The hard part is makingthat personal connection,
having that relationship enough with themand helping them to be successful and
move on. And that's a lot of work,and that's hard. Um, and yes,
as an introvert, that isa ton of energy-taking
activities. Um, but I always knew thatthere were ways that I would recharge.

(07:19):
And that individual on the receivingend of that departure deserved all of
my time, attention, and energy, becauseI needed to make a tough decision.
And they were on the side of it that wasgoing to be departing. The good news,
however, is I run into those people.
I continue to run into people that haveleft organizations in which I've worked,

(07:39):
and they're in a good spot. They'vedone great things. They, you know,
grow in their careers.
So not that that is ever foreseeableat the time of the departure,
but you can, you can do it right.
It just takes a lot more effort.
Almost all of my mentors, and Iconsider you a mentor of mine, um,
have this ability to make fans.So, you leave people as a fan. So,

(08:04):
before the show we were talking about,I got back together the MBA cohort,
and you're very highly respected amongmy cohort as one of our instructors.
And that's important.
And as you tell this story aboutleaving these people kind of as a fan,
even though you had to do somethingtough, like terminate them,
and I have been on the receivingend of a layoff before,
and I remember the people who did it well,and the people who didn't do it well,

(08:27):
and you don't, you don't forget that oneof the reasons I'm drawn to higher ed,
and maybe this is true for you too,
everybody remembers a great teacher intheir lives going all the way back to
elementary school.
Everybody remembers a bad teacher goingall the way back to elementary school.
So that opportunity that we have, uh,
to shape student lives is such anhonor and so important. And I know, uh,

(08:48):
from our past discussions, Ithink you feel the same way.
Where did you learn that? Whowere your mentors? Did mentorship,
is that how you learned? Or did you,so Phil Sims was in the chair, uh,
just before you, and we talked about isthere such a thing as self mentoring,
you know?
Well, I think obviously early in ourlives I've had bosses that have said,

(09:08):
where did you get your workethic, though? I don't know. We,
I get my work ethic. This wasjust, I learned how to do. Um, I,
my dad was a strong mentor in my life,
not that it was alwaysgreat mentorship. So,
we had a guest speaker in the otherday that used a term that I have never
thought of before, but it was called an,

(09:29):
he used the reference to an anti-mentor.
And maybe those are the people inour lives that we learned from.
I learned a million things frommy dad, and I quote him often.
He was an interesting, um,business, um, professional,
but I also learned a lot of thingsthey wouldn't do. We were just,
we led in different times. Andduring his time of leadership,

(09:49):
he would come home andcomplain and, you know, oh,
this is what we're goingto do. And I'm like,
I remember as a high schoolstudent sitting at the table thinking I would never
have handled it that way.
Not that I would've said thatto my father at that time,
but it did help me to learn. Soearly, mentors, coaches, you know,
the same old, same old that I hear frommy students all the time. Teachers,

(10:10):
mentor, you know, teachers,coaches, um, moms and dads, um,
all of those things. But through, I'vebeen assigned mentors through my career.
Some of that worked,some of it didn't work.
I have sought out my own mentors throughmy career. Um, some of that worked,
some of that didn't work. I've hadbosses that were great mentors,

(10:34):
some that weren't. So, I think mentoring,
like anything else in ourbusiness careers is a bit of a,
sometimes it works andsometimes it doesn't.
And when you've got that mentorthat just really pushes you to
be a little bit better tomorrowthan you were yesterday,

(10:54):
you need to grab those relationships.At this point in my career,
it's all about more giving back. Istill have mentors in my career, um,
don't get me wrong,
but my role I feel now is the opportunityto sort of do that, give back.
I think it's a great honor that Iget to do what I do for Grand Valley,
but I also,
I hope that I have the opportunity onpeople that are earlier in their careers

(11:18):
that I can kind of share some thingsthat I did that worked really well,
and the things that I did that didn'twork so well. So, I think mentoring is,
we,
we get it early in our careers and welearn and we get better and we grow and we
lead and all those things.
But then it is also ourresponsibility to give back and, um,

(11:38):
because we can reversethat mentorship too.
I've been fascinated ever since last yearwe did a round table with students and
professionals of introverts andextroverts. You and I are both, uh,
Pondera virtual, uh, advisorinterpreter. So, we interpret data.
For those who don't know, the Ponderaassessment is used quite a bit at Seidman,

(12:00):
but more at Grand Valley as awhole. And it's kind of boy,
uh, Pondera is listening. So, I, I,I don't want to just say it's a, a,
if I say personality assessment,you know what I'm talking about.
But it's not a personality assessment.It's a work style assessment.
But I think that's the easiestparallel I can make for our audience.
I'm interested in, in howyou sought out, uh, mentors.

(12:22):
Oh, seeking out mentors very,
very hard for an introvert becausewhat we like to do is, I like to go to,
especially earlier in mycareer, I like to go to work.
I like to work crazy hard. Give mewhatever goals you want to give me.
I will accomplish them. I, that is what I,
I'm sort of all about.
But it wasn't until I probably hadsomebody sit down with me and say,

(12:45):
you might be at the highest level. Youare going to be in this organization,
and potentially others, unless youlearn to develop more social skills,
more relationship skills.That just wasn't my gig.
I'm much happier just gettingmy work done. Not that I'm not,
I'm not, it's not thatI'm not a nice person.
I just get more wired bygetting stuff done. So, I,

(13:10):
I had to learn those things. So,
I did need to seek somebody outthat was able to help me. I'm, I,
it would've been much easier inmy career to wake up and say,
I really would like tobe an extrovert today.
That would've been way easierway to do it. But of course,
that just is not thecase. I am introverted.
I prefer to reenergizein my own head space.

(13:31):
I had to be able to learn how tocompartmentalize when I needed to be on,
if you will. Not that that was an in,
in or un- unauthentic me.
I could be on and still be whoI am. But I also needed off.
So,
I sought out mentors that couldhelp to teach me how to gain social

(13:53):
skills, um, develop, um,
an opportunity to deepenrelationships. I'm,
I am not motivated by havingdeep, deep relationships. Um,
so I moved into a sales position.
That was probably one of the best piecesof advice that a mentor ever gave me

(14:13):
was I worked the internalspace exceptionally well and just got stuff done for
the organization. But to advance, Ireally needed to develop my social skills,
my sales skills, my abilityto build relationships. So,
I went out and carried abag and generated revenue.
And you had, was it comforting?Because when I think of sales,

(14:34):
which I spent a lot of my career insales too, in a way, it's kind of,
the interaction is scripted,right? We talked to the client,
we find out what the client needs.
We see if we have a matching solution orproduct, we present, we close the deal,
we collect the money, we moveon. Is that, is that pattern,
that social script I call it, is thatcomforting to, uh, uh, introvert?

(14:55):
Um, the script is comforting.
What helped me in sales, honestly,
was treating it as if itwas just a numbers game. So,
I need this much in revenue.
I need this many appointmentsto get that much in revenue.
I need to go to this many events andmake this many face-to-face meetings and

(15:18):
have this. So, it was a numbersgame for me. So, I need,
I had a sales territory. I left onSunday nights. I came home Thursday.
I just simply didn't come home Thursdayif I didn't have all those numbers done.
I worked on Friday in my territoryand made sure I hit all my numbers.
And if I hit those numbersevery week, I was going. So,
I simply approached it as a numbersgame. Now did that help my social skills?

(15:40):
Of course, you know, how manybreakfasts can you have in a day?
How many lunches can you have?
How many times can you walk into a Chamberof Commerce meeting and shake hands?
You know,
of course you develop thoseskills just by practicing them.
There's three follow ups Iwant to have from, from that.
I want to ask you about work-lifebalance. We're going to get back to that.

(16:00):
Back to the mentoring. So,
what's the calculus inside your headfor choosing that mentor? Do you, I,
I would go around and just meetpeople That's not your style.
Did you find the top sales personand go to them and say, hey,
I don't know what you're doing, but it'ssuccessful. I want to do that. How did,
how does it work?
How does this calculus in your headwork for you choosing your mentorship

(16:23):
partner?
Pretty good of a self-aware. So,
I know I am not closing. I betterfind somebody who's really,
really good at this. So it wasn't justbroadly, who's the best salesperson?
It's who is the best closer.And so that person assisted me.
They came with me, they coached me.They worked with me. Um, so there,

(16:45):
when, it was, when I had anopportunity to, you know,
move into an executive level role and Iwas initially told I was not going to be
moving at the executive level.
I sat down with someone that I had knownfor years and years and years and said,
hey, this is what just happened.I was not selected for this role.
And he was like straight up,honest with me on, you know,

(17:07):
you don't think strategically. What,what are you talking about? So, I'm like,
and he didn't even work withme. And he absolutely nailed it.
I went back to the CEO and said, Ineed to develop my strategic skills.
What do I need to do? Because I am goingto be on that executive committee. So,
I, I think I am prettygood at knowing like,

(17:28):
I'm really good at this.I'm not so great at this.
And the mentors that I have found havenot been the people that are good at this
stuff that I'm good at,because that's not helping me.
It's really going in thedirection of I might, I,
I just need help withsomething that I'm not good at.
When I first moved here toWest Michigan from Chicago,

(17:51):
that was a pretty big culture shock forme, I bet from a business perspective.
And the company that I came to workfor, amazing, amazing, CEO. Um,
and he selected a mentor for meto help guide that transition.
Um, because I was kind of blown stuff up.
The way that we got things done inChicago was not the way that we did

(18:12):
things here. And I was drivingpeople crazy. And so I,
I think it's finding a mentor that'slike me that's good at the things
that I want to sit down with. Can'twait to hang out and have coffee with,
that's not going to do me or them- it'snot a good use of their time or mine.
That's a friend that's not a mentor.So, a person that can really say to me,

(18:33):
you're not good at this and I have,
we need to work through somethings that help you get there.
I think that's very different.
It's a brilliant example of somethingPhil Sims and I talked about in the last
episode. And he and I were at a coffeeshop and as I look back at my mentors,
the most effective mentors Ihave picked are introverts.

(18:55):
They're the opposite of me.They're diversity of thought.
And we were working on this episode wherewe were talking about work style and
we came up with an equation that mademore sense to Phil than what Gerry
would do.
And that equation is whatI want is one half times
what I perceive the mentor has is thatequal to or greater than the energy it's

(19:18):
going to take to connect? And so themore that you know what you want,
that strengthens that piece of theequation. But sometimes we don't.
We just see what the other person has.
I always think the introvertswhen I interview them,
are very good at concentratingon what they want.
And the extroverts areconcentrating on what they have.
That guy's the best salesguy. That's good. I want that.
I think that way from an extroversion,

(19:40):
you identify your weaknesses and theirstrengths to both we're both successful.
Um, businesspeople beforewe came to higher ed,
I love the piece of where you're talkingabout mentorship and sometimes mentors
are friends,
but more often the mentor's a personthat has to sit you down and say, look,
you're off the rails here. Or this iswhere you need, this is the perception.

(20:01):
That you're creating and you haveto earn the right to have that
conversation. But what animpactful conversation.
I want to jump back to work-lifebalance and I want to take you back. Um,
so you taught professional development,
you taught our consultingclasses and our capstone,
which I think of as the thesisfor our masters. And I remember,

(20:24):
I'm going to take you back to a classwhere we were doing, uh, values exercise.
And I had done this incorporate before. So,
I was in a leadership trainingpiece and they would hand out these,
I think it was 50 cards.
I don't think we used it in the classand on the cards they have values.
And the values are things like beingpromoted, being in leadership, um,
hitting my numbers, but there'sother competing values. Um,

(20:46):
family work-life balance,being part of my community.
And I don't know if you rememberthis particular exercise or not,
but there was probably28 of us in the class,
and I can fairly say I was theoldest person in the cohort.
And I had come out of+20 years of experience.
And I am part of this WestMichigan work hard culture,
whole nother part podcast. We're goingto talk about work identification,

(21:07):
but if you recall, um,
we sussed down all the valuesand the idea was to get to one.
And then you asked people to sharetheir values. And we kind of did a poll.
And I remember
the surprise on your face whenout of the cohort of 28, 27,
people picked what I would callnon-business oriented values.

(21:31):
The most important thing tome in life is family time.
The most important thing to mein life is work-life balance.
The most important thing to meis giving back to my community.
The most important thing to me is charity.
And one person in the cohort had picked,
I want to be the CEO orthe leader or whatever.
And I think it's a changein the, in the culture.
And I think the pandemic hasexacerbated it for our students and our

(21:51):
professionals. What's your take now
on the student whowants work-life balance,
but wants to be the CEO? Yeah.
So, I'm the worst person onearth to ask this question.
No,
I think you're the best person to askthis question because you've been there
and done that.
And you just described howwork-life balance for an executive,

(22:14):
and I had a chance, Ididn't become an executive,
but I was right hand for a lot of people.
And I know when I left theoffice and they were there,
and I know when theywere there before I was,
and I remember I wasn't driving themto the conference because I was their
driver. It was because they were on threephones at once solving the problems.
And they didn't go to, you know,they had to compartmentalize. So

(22:36):
do a reality check forus then of what you see.
Oh... So,
I preface this conversation when studentsask me this MBA students, whomever,
um, that my experience willnot be yours because I,
I have, um, a very, very highcapacity for work, though.

(22:57):
I worked all the time. Um,
I remember sitting in a restaurantone time with my little kids,
and this was pre like, I'm going tosound like the oldest person on earth,
but pre cell phones. Like, my beeper.
And my little guy says to me, mom, I'llgive you five bucks if you'll like,
put that beeper away. But thatwas my kid's life. You know,

(23:19):
you were on a beeper, you were on apager-, whatever you were always on.
And so the perspective that Ihave about work-life balance and
still trying to get to their ball games.
And I can remember flyinghome one Thursday night,
my son had a basketball gameand I said to the cab driver,
I don't care how you get me there,

(23:39):
but I need to be to this school in anhour because I will miss that game.
And he didn't take me home. I getout of the cab, I've got my luggage,
I've got my briefcase, and I'm runningin to try to watch my son's game.
That was the reality that I livedin. And you're not not working.
And I think it's hard for me to have thatconversation with other people because

(24:01):
I was taught that you arrive before yourboss. You leave after your boss. Um,
I was taught that you work until thejob is done. You know, I was taught,
you know,
the things that I was raised onin terms of my business ethics,
um, not even ethics, businessvalues, um, are different today.
The expectations aredifferent. When I led people,

(24:23):
did I expect them to work like that? No.
I wanted them to havework-life balance. In fact,
I would do anything I possibly couldto help them not live that same
life that I necessarily did. Um,
but I would be curious for you tointerview people that are leading
organizations today, particularlyleading the, you know,

(24:45):
where are we now, the Gen Zers,
and kind of see how those discussions go.
Because I just read an article the otherday that the new work week is 34 hours
a week. That's part-time to me. You know,
I don't understand a 34-hour work week.I understand a 60-to-70-hour work week.
So, it's very,
that's why I said I'm the worst personon earth to talk with about this. Um,

(25:09):
because I, I don't, I, Idon't resonate necessarily,
or I don't connect with the ideaof 34 hours being full-time.
So, I, I don't know if that's good or bad.
And I'm not saying that the only way tobecome an executive is to work sixty-.
No. There's lots of paths to beable to get there. But I love work.
I love to work. I lovethe outcomes of work.

(25:32):
I love to find, you know,
hit a challenging P and LI love to outsmart people
to just do better than they can, thatis all super motivating to me. So,
I, I, it never felt like, man,
I like I've worked 70 hours this week.I'm, I'm ready to just kick it in.

(25:52):
Never felt that way. Itwas just not my wiring.
So, the students todaythat are listening or,
or the professionaltoday who are listening,
who are thinking aboutthis and they run into,
or they go to the office and they'reworking for people of our generation, um,
I consider myself lucky to have a goldenparachute to come to academia to have a

(26:14):
different work life.
Because what you described is verysimilar to how I operated in business.
And they are going to have thatone-on-one time with the boss.
How do they balance between today,it's called imposter syndrome,
but it's going to the boss and saying,
work is the only thing I want todo when they don't want to do that.

(26:35):
But they want to be leadership becausethey want to provide value and they're
concerned.
Because I would be concerned if I wentto the boss and the first thing I said
was, hey Leslie, I'm reallyconcerned about my work-life balance.
And you have one slot to fill inyour promotion, and who do you pick?
Do you pick the personthat says I love work?
Or do you pick the person that says,you know, maybe has some more balance,

(26:56):
less likely to burn out? What's youradvice for today? Knowing that your, your,
your voyage may vary.
So I had a discussion withsomeone kind of about this topic,
I'm going to say a year ago. So,it was closer to post-COVID. Um,
people were still working fromhome almost a hundred percent.
It wasn't even still hybrid at that time.

(27:17):
And the discussion on the table cameto not wanting to come back to the
office. So, okay.
Then the conversation led towho's going to get promoted.
And I asked that question. I said,so you are now the boss. You,
uh, you work in theoffice every single day.
You've got an employee that issitting by you every single day,

(27:38):
taking on tough tasks, raisingtheir hand, getting work done,
delivering it to you in-person.
And you've got somebody sitting athome perhaps doing similar work,
perhaps delivering just as great outcomes.
And the next opportunity forthe promotion is coming up.
Who do you think gets that job? So,I will leave that to your listeners.

(28:00):
Who do you think is goingto get that job? Um, I, I,
my opinion perhaps is going to be theperson that has been my right-hand
sitting next to me delivering work,having really interesting connection,
conversations,
building personal relationships and abond with me wiring together to get really
tough stuff done. Myguess is I'm going there.

(28:23):
So now am I a boomer? I amthe tail end of the boomers.
You can have all sorts of arguments ordialogue around that tail-end boomer and
how we're wired. But tail-end boomersare still running a lot of companies.
Absolutely.
So, I'm not sure we're ready tosay the boomers have to all leave.
I, I have a similar conversation witha couple of mentees probably each year.

(28:47):
And I say, I can't judge to you whetheror not the culture is right or not.
All I can tell you is that people of myage are running companies right now and
making decisions based on howthe culture was wired for us.
And when people get stressed,they go back to what they know.
We talk about this in the PVA about yoursecondary style and your primary style

(29:08):
and how stressors make and/orexacerbate your ability to do that. So,
you brought up an interesting pointnow that I hit you with a hard ball.
Now I'll toss you a softball.And it's a two-part question.
The first part is,
how does a studenttoday who is post-COVID,
was isolated for two yearsin a fight or flight fear

(29:31):
situation, didn't havethat safety net. So,
I feel like that happenedin '08 for graduates.
It happened to me in '98 with ourrecession then when I graduated from Grand
Valley undergrad. How do theypractice and learn what I call,
we used to call these soft skills,now we call them human skills.
I am branding social scripts. So,if you hear that out, there's,

(29:52):
I think I said it, said it first.
How does this student practice socialscripting and learn how to have these
conversations?
Yes. Such a great question.So, I hope, I hope,
I hope that students findin their way through Grand
Valley all of the opportunitiesthat a college should offer,

(30:12):
that safe space to learn andpractice these skills. It's,
it's everywhere around us. You justhave to go find it. Um, so young women,
for example, that are like, Idon't have assertiveness and I,
I'm super scared to go do- there is awonderful young women's business group
from Seidman that just, go join them.
Women in business.
Women in business, go join them.It's not that hard? You, you know,

(30:34):
you can sit in the back corner,
know- you don't have to talk toanybody for the first five meetings,
but go do it. You know, there are,
so there's professors that areamazing here that have all the time,
like hopefully to make that one-on-oneconnection with the students and just sit
down and talk with them. So,
I think you've got to findthat space within this to me,

(30:55):
or go volunteer somewhere. You know,those are your safe places in my opinion.
You can't get fired froma volunteer opportunity.
So go find those places whereyou can develop those skills,
those human skills. Thesocial script. Uh, I,
I've used this. It's not mine.I'm not sure even who said it. Uh,
you are going to get yourjob accounting student,

(31:16):
you're going to get your firstaccounting role because you're a great
accountant, you've been a goodstudent, you get good grades,
you're going to go geta great accounting job.
You are not going to be promotedbecause you have really,
really wonderful accounting skills.
You're going to be promoted because youhave demonstrated great team skills,
because you have demonstratedgreat empathy, vulnerability.
People want to work with you. Um,
you have demonstrated all thosesocial skills that you should be

(31:39):
developing while you're in school.And whether it's a good, you know,
for a professor to say,
when I was hiring people andway more interested in how you
have developed your social skillsin college, um, as I am in your GPA.
Not that the GPA is not important.It can be a foot in the door,
but it is not going to get you thejob. It will get you in the door.

(32:04):
So, I, I hope that students take advantageof all, everything. There's so much,
so much stuff to do.
Phil Sims mentor told him and heshared with us on this program,
and I, I love this dichotomy ofthought again of Phil and I. He said,
attached to every opportunity is a human.

(32:27):
I think that's a veryintroverted way of thinking.
Because I always think everyhuman is an opportunity.
That's an extroverted way of thinking.But I love that and I love what you said.
So, um,
professor Kevin Leonard sat in that chairand you have heard me say this in your
classes when you've let me come and speak.
Office hours are so underrated.And if, if anybody listening,

(32:51):
if you're a student at Seidman andyou've tried to meet with a professor and
failed, I want to talk to you.Because I don't know of any faculty,
and um, I love people andI try to make connections.
Because we're a volunteer program,so we have a shoestring. So,
I'm always looking for support,
of people like yourself tocome in and give their time.
Everybody here wants to help you.

(33:13):
They might not be able to help youimmediately or meet with you tomorrow,
but they're going to meet with you andthey're going to spend time with you.
We're all interested in that.
There is an altruism here in academia that
stupefies me as a businessperson sometimesbecause nobody asked me what the ROI
was. Nobody asked me what the RONA was.

(33:34):
I don't get asked the things that youtrained me to look for in my analysis of,
of my master's in business.
But that's freeing because we try things
and the conversation I think is, Ithink this is good for students. Okay,
let's do it. Right. That'samazing. So this idea, I love your,

(33:54):
uh, definition kind of, howI feel our culture should be.
Bob Stole my mentor herein undergrad for 30 years.
Just because they have a door on theiroffice doesn't mean that you can't go
talk to them. And I love that idea. Sothis is the second half of the question.
I think you've answered part ofit, but it might be more specific.
What do you wish that studentswould do that they don't do?

(34:17):
Well, office hours isan easy one. You know,
have you ever been to the third floor?You know, just walk up the steps,
you know, just get out on the floorand just go discover what's there. So,
because it's a treasure troveof faculty that truly does care.
You're talking about where we hideour faculty on the third floor-.
-I guess so-.
-I have described it beforeas a, uh, pet shelter.

(34:39):
Yeah, please come and see us.
Yeah, they're,
they're there during office hours waitingto be adopted by you just to spend a
little time together. That's-.
-But it's always scary-.
-I've sat in office hours too and we postoffice hours and then nobody shows up.
I know. And I'm trying to leave that like,
it's not a productive part of my dayas far as tactical work I have to do.
I'm hoping students come to visit.Because that's the work. And for me,

(35:00):
it's such a touchstone.
I get a lot of office hoursbecause then you can tell me,
I get a judge of what we'redoing. Is it right or not? Yeah.
It's the equivalent on the ship of lookingat the compass and making sure we're
on course.
If I don't touch base with a studentand I'm up there by myself making
decisions,
that's why I have mentors with diversitiesof thought to try to figure out are
we doing this right? Yeah.

(35:20):
The, I I,
I am always surprised at how fewstudents actually hit the third floor.
But to me that's just-. I'mnot, however, I will say my,
if I think back of mycollege student self,
never in a million years would I haveever gone to a professor's office
and I went to a tiny littleschool for undergrad.
So, sell our introverts, sell ourintroverts who are listening on why-.

(35:42):
-How would, how do I do it?
Why, yeah, why and how?
Why and how I, you know,
I to meet those introvertsneeds me. I, I know how I do it.
Sometimes I just tell them, you know,it's time for us to get together.
You know, I'd love to meet you. Oroften with an introvert, they're,
they are a little more comfortable onZoom and you don't have to come and sit

(36:04):
face to face. You do not have to cometo the third floor. Let's hit Starbucks.
You know, I meet my studentsat Starbucks all the time. Um,
let's just grab a Zoom call anddo that. So sometimes it's just,
you know,
enough of just getting myself in frontof those students a little bit because
they just need a gentle nudge.
And I think once you startto build that relationship...

(36:26):
I had a student the other day on that hadgraduated three or four years ago that
I saw on the third floor and gota chance to catch up with him. I,
so I think we as professors,we have to be good at that too,
because we have to recognize that it,
it would've taken a monsoonin college to get me to
move in the directionof a faculty office. So,

(36:48):
I just would never have done that.
And I have students that sayI would never have done it.
I do the same thing when I ask them,
why don't more of you ask mefor letters of recommendation?
A handful do take advantage ofthat. Um, but not many. It's like,
if you do great work in my class,
you have earned an opportunity for meto write a letter of recommendation for
you. And some I, I get to everysemester, I have a couple,

(37:12):
but a couple out of how many studentswould I have if I have a full undergrad
suite, a hundred and....
Thirty?
Thirty students that semester? I don'tknow. I think they could do, you know,
just ask.
I love how, um, when I've been a,
a guest speaker in your classand I know you require it,

(37:33):
but you get thank you notes and youhave the students hand write thank you
notes. I think this is one ofthe most powerful weapons. Um,
we have culturally and I,
it's still a small townbusiness kind of thing.
If you go to an interview and you'renot carrying that thank you card in your
pocket,
I just had a meeting right before thispodcast and I was talking to a colleague

(37:56):
and she's like, I never sent the thankyou card. Because it gets there too late.
Not that the thank you card is howyou get the job, but nobody does it.
So if you have that in your pocket andyou either hand it to the administrative
assistant on your way out, you don'tnecessarily have to hand it to the person.
But maybe that works too.But I read those right?

(38:16):
And I can tell the difference betweenthe students we impacted the ones we
didn't. And for me, and this mightbe part of my introversion emerging,
I keep those.
And when I have a bad day and Iwonder why I'm doing what I'm doing,
I get my little box of thank youcards out and I read a few right?
And it recharges me and reminds me.
Because some of the myriad ofstuff that we do, um, is, you know,

(38:40):
the morass of the things that we haveto do. But that's part of the job.
But I remember why and itrecharges me for that. So,
I really love that you do that and Itotally recommend that people bring that
back because I remember a couplethank you emails or a phone call.
That's a big thing too.Because it rarely happens.
I'm talking about a real voicecall. Um, that's a big deal.

(39:03):
I just read an article in thejournal the other day about what Zers
don't like about boomers. Andone of them was that we make,
place annoying phone calls,which I find so hilarious. So,
because it is a way to justpick up the phone and say, hey,
can you help me with something?Um, on the thank you note,
I am pretty certain that Amazon thinksthat I must write hundreds of thank you

(39:26):
notes every year. But I buy a ton of them.
Our students do write themwhen we have speakers in,
when we have somebody to thank,
I want them to practice writinghandwritten thank you notes.
I will have people always say, yeah, Idon't care about thank you notes. Okay,
that's, that's fine,
but you're going to get them anywaybecause we are going to practice that as a
skill because it is a talent.

(39:47):
And I have used themto help me make hiring
decisions. So, if people thinkthat they don't add value, I'm, I,
I assure you that they do.
If I have two very equally qualifiedcandidates and I just can't make a
decision, I'm adding value tothat handwritten thank you note.
If it's a thank you. It was nice tomeet you. I hope to hear from you soon.

(40:10):
That one is a pitch. If it's a,
I really appreciated the way we connectedabout the culture of the organization
and I'm so excited to be a part of thatbecause I know I can learn and grow with
you. That's very different.
Did everybody write that down?Did everybody write that one down?
It makes a difference.
And don't let Chat GPT write your yoursbecause actually, uh, recently, um,

(40:32):
somebody on my staff, I asked to um,
them to write a email andthey sent it to me, uh,
to proofread before we sentit out to the mentorship.
And I read it and I wrote the,the individual back and I said,
this needs to be an executive summary.
This isn't business writing and thisisn't like you. And they confessed to me.
Well I had Chat GPT write this andI was proud of myself that I could,
I could recognize it. Um,

(40:53):
so don't do that because ProfessorLynch and I can recognize that.
I want to go back to your phonecall thing because I want to,
I want to do a call out.
So recently somebody approached me witha very unique opportunity for students
and it was a singularopportunity and I asked, uh,
some people to put together some ofour best students from mentorship.

(41:15):
And it was time sensitive. So,
I called and if you're the personwho has a voicemail box that is not
set up or full, which we allknow is facetious now, right?
That means you just don'twant to get voicemails. That
you did not get that opportunity. I,
I called students who I couldn'tleave a voicemail for and it was time
sensitive. So, I was onto thenext student. That turns me off.

(41:36):
I don't know how you feel aboutit and maybe I'm half-boomer. Um,
but I don't like that.
And I typically will not leave avoicemail unless it's pertinent. Um,
but it's unlikely you and I aregoing to text something that's,
maybe it's impactful. Nowneed yes or no decisions.
But I know I believe at one point inthe course in professional development,
we talked about communication andwhat is appropriate for what. Um,

(42:00):
you got to have a voicemail if you'regoing to be a business student.
Well, and there's different types ofcommunication for different things.
It's like, I, I'm an introvert, text me,
please don't call because I may notwant to talk with you right now,
but there are things thatyou need to call me for. So-.
-Well at least let meleave you a voicemail.
At least leave a voicemail.
So you have to understand theappropriateness of the different

(42:24):
vehicles of communication andbe available to all of them.
Because my team of peoplethat work on my team are all
wired differently and it'snot their job to adapt to me.
I always felt it was my job to beable to lean into their preferences.
And that could be thatthey need to call me.
It could be that they need to text me,

(42:45):
it could be that they'regoing to email me.
I always felt it was my job to beavailable to all of that. Like it or not.
The, uh, marketing department, um,who I enjoy spending time with,
probably because it's a lot of extroverts,
but they broke down marketing intothis phrase. And that phrase is,
"make it as easy as possiblefor people to give you money".

(43:07):
I feel the same way if you'rea business student out there,
make it as easy as possible forpeople to do business with you.
And so if the client, if, if you wantto think of yourself as a client,
that's fine, but you want toenter this business field,
business didn't call you andask you, you chose business. So,
there's a certain amount of tablestakes. We're playing poker.
That's the money we have to put in themiddle before we can play the game.
Right? So I, I think that'syour professional dress.

(43:31):
I think that's your communication.If they want a voicemail, call you.
If they want a zoom call, whateverit is, be open to all those things.
If you want to join that. Now,
if you are a raging entrepreneurand you're going to come out and do business in
a new way that we've never seen before,yeah, you are welcome to do that.
I'm not saying you can't,
but for the majority of uswho join another business,

(43:54):
you uh, make that fitand culture. And the,
the the final questionI want to pitch to you,
because we have talked about thisin our, our mentorship relationship.
And I've asked your advice on thisbefore and I'd love your answers,
is how important is that fit?
I'm thinking for the the new employee.So when you're having that interview,
they're interviewing you because theywant to see if you're a good fit for the

(44:15):
organization. But how important is itfor you as the individual to identify,
understand your fit and if thisis something you want to do?
Yeah. It's, it's both.
So I'll speak with my hat on fromthe employer's perspective. First,
there's a lot of discussion on thetable due to the current employment
environment of fit, not mattering thatwe just need bodies, get them in here,

(44:37):
they're going to churn, but we don'tcare. We just need people to come in and,
and do the work. And I get that.
I mean there is an aspect ofthe reality of staffing our
organizations. However, Iwas raised unfit. And um,
I need to make sure that you've gotthe technical skills to do the job.
I need to make sure all of thosethings. But at the end of all of that,

(44:59):
as the employer,
I want to make sure this is a good fitfor you and that you are a good fit for
us. And that takes a little bit morework on the interviewing side because you
really have to, here's the good,
bad and the ugly and let's really talkabout what this is going to look like.
And, and um, I, I think we haveto be open to those conversations.
So I personally believe that fitis really important. As an example,

(45:23):
when I first started, well, not earlyin my, early in my career, I was,
um, interviewing for a position and hadmade it through the interview process,
was interviewing with the CEO and whatwould've been the COO of that company.
And my kids had given me aTasmanian devil watch that I loved.
Because I love the Tasmaniandevil. It works fast.
It's all the things that I love.

(45:45):
And I remember I had like my little suiton just like I was supposed to and went
in and I must have moved or he, anyway,he saw my watch and the CEO says to me,
we'd love to have youcome work here, but you,
I never want to seethat watch again. Okay.
That was an importantpart of their culture.
That was a very well-healed organization.
We were always dressed exactly howwe were supposed to be dressed.

(46:06):
And for some people they may have said,
I'm wearing the watch I want to wearand there's no way you're going-,
well then don't go work there. You know,that just makes so much sense to me.
But I thought, I want to work for thiscompany. I'm going to work with smart,
talented people that are allgoing to be smarter than me.
I'm going to have to work harderevery single day to be better.
That's super motivating. So I'mlike, I don't care about my watch,
I'll wear it to the ball game,

(46:27):
but I'm going to put my nice fancy oneon when I come into work. So that's fit.
And I, I do think that we haveto decide whether, you know,
whether we, how important fit is to us.
I am not the type of per,- I'mkind of an all-in kind of person.
So if I go to work, um, at acompany, I'm kind of all in.

(46:48):
And if some people don't feel that way,they can just go in, flip a switch,
turn it off, go home. Um,
but I think culture mattersto an organization and my fit within that culture
also matters more. So asan executive of course.
For sure. Man, there's there's72 other things, but I,

(47:08):
I just got to hold them because we'rerunning out of time. Um, I hear you.
And the last transitionthat I made to academia,
I was always obsessed with,
can I pay my bills? Can I meet myfinancial goals? Can I get the next thing?
What was interesting is whenI think about working hard,

(47:29):
that was a big part of the cultureof my generation and my time.
Now that I don't make asmuch money as I used to,
but I don't work hardanymore. I work more caring.
I work more lovingly. I love the workthat I do. I'm a different person.

(47:50):
Because when I worked, youheard work hard, play hard.
I had to play hard becausethe stress level of my work
required some sort ofbalance on the other end.
And not all of that was positive.Did I have financial success? I did.
I said it before. I'll say it again.
People aren't going to rememberhow much money you made.

(48:11):
They're going to remember how you madethem feel. You've made me feel welcome.
Uh, you've made me feelprepared, uh, for this piece.
Grand Valley is very fortunate to haveyou and I consider myself extremely
fortunate to have you as amentor. Um, I love that you're,
we call it affiliative practice.And to me that is, you're,

(48:31):
you came from doing the thing we allwant to do and I just really appreciate
that and your relevance,your stories that you,
you opened the class with ofthis is what really happened.
You took the gloves off and saidthis is, you know, business in,
in the raw and these are the hardchallenges that you're going to face in
business. And we're just sofortunate to have that, um, from you.

(48:55):
So thank you on behalfof Grand Valley. Uh,
thank you on behalf of the mentorshipprogram and thank you for me, um,
for just being a very impactfulinstructor and person in my life.
We just appreciate you so much.
Very kind. Thank you for having me.
I hope you'll come back and join us again.Uh, despite the amount of energy, uh,
you have to expend to do it.
That's right. I live in a log cabin.I'm headed home. I'm all good.

(49:18):
Professor Leslie Lynch,thank you very much.
Yep. Thanks for having me.
Thank you for sailing along on thisepisode of the Seidman Mentorship Podcast.
For more information on the SeidmanSchool of Business Mentorship Program at
Grand Valley State University,set your heading to
www.gvsu.edu/seidman.

(49:39):
If you have a story to tell,know someone we should interview,
have questions or comments,email us at go, the number two,
GV biz, spelled b i z, @gvsu.edu.
Until next time, keep a weathered eye onthe horizon and we wish you fair winds.

(50:00):
So long.