May 29, 2024 • 48 mins
In an age where audiences are younger, more diverse, and growingly tech-savvy, the fight for fans has never been tougher. On this episode of StreamTime Sports host Nick Meacham is joined by sports media experts Robert Gottlieb (Fox Sports), Jennifer Storms (NBC Universal), and Phil Cook (WNBA) to discuss their marketing strategies.
Talking points: The modern fan – who are they and what makes them tick? What are the biggest challenges for sports marketers today? How is technology revolutionising marketing tactics? How can sports balance appeasing die hard fans while also attracting new casual fans? How effective are influencers in sports marketing?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 138 of Streamtime
Sports. I'm your host, Nick Meacham, CEO
at Sports Pro and through to be joining you once again.
And thank you, as always, for all your time and effort
listening in to this podcast. This pod's a bit of a different
one. I've been sitting on this
podcast for a little while waiting for the right time to
drop it. And for a couple of reasons.
(00:31):
One is I think it's a really, really interesting discussion.
And two, basically because I'm on leave for a few days.
So I thought this would be a great one to drop in the mix and
make sure you're not missing outon any of the high quality
stream time sports action we're producing here at Sports Pro.
But honestly, this podcast and indeed this panel discussion was
recorded at Sports Pro New York in March and is with three of
(00:55):
the best in the business when itcomes to marketing leadership in
the sports space. I was joined by Phil Cook, the
CMO at WNBA, Jennifer Storms, who's the CMO at NBC Universal,
and Robert Gottlieb, who's the President of marketing at Fox
Sports. And if you take a step back and
see what we as an industry talk about when it comes to sports
(01:17):
media, we talk a lot about content creation.
We don't always talk a lot abouthow do you actually turn the
content into delivering marketing excellence, marketing
performance, more eyeballs, moreawareness and ultimately
conversion of audiences. And now these three guests have
all very different approaches and different businesses, even
(01:38):
though you could say that Fox and and NBC are two very big
broadcasters, yes. But NBC Universal's
organization, which we've recently covered in a podcast as
part of our Comcast discussion is much more nuanced to that.
They have the Peacock business, they have the NBC main linear
channels. They're doing more creative
things around the Premier League.
And of course, they have the Olympics rights and make a huge
(02:02):
effort in producing some of the best broadcast content in the
live sports arena around that event each year.
And now that the fact that that's going to be in in Paris
in this year in only a couple ofmonths time, I think the
conversation around what they'redoing is interesting as it's
shifted around how they're usingathletes and personalities to
tell more of the stories than ever before now.
So the couple, some of the couple of questions we're
(02:24):
talking about here in this conversation range, not only
with how to be a great marketer,but indeed, even when does a
marketer start getting involved in the conversation around media
rights? Or at what stage does someone
like the WNBA have to kick into gear talking about how they
maximize the Caitlin Clark effect to make sure they get the
(02:44):
most value out of that situationand help grow the lead,
particularly when there's so many different stakeholders at
play in the organization? I also talked to them quite a
bit about how they actually measure success now.
Is it more complicated now or isit more difficult to try and
drive value out of marketing given all the different channels
that you've got at your disposal?
So it's a real big deep dive into effectively how to be a
(03:07):
great marketer in the sports media landscape.
And I do really think you'll enjoy this.
It's it's fast-paced with a lot of insight and a great dynamic
between between my guests. So hope you enjoy the listen and
hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
But that's enough for me. It's time for me to hand over to
me talking to Phil Cook, Jennifer Storms and Robert
Gottlieb. Hope you enjoy.
(03:39):
Really exciting panel this one. Really happy to be able to kick
off day 2 with this pretty illustrious group.
So to my left, we have Jenny Storms, who is the CMO for NBC
Universal, Phil Cook, who is theCMO for WNBA at the end there,
and Robert Gottlieb, who is the president of marketing for Fox
Sports. So we're going to spend a lot of
time talking about all the nuances, let's say, with
(04:01):
marketing in the modern era around sports and sports media.
So lots of good stuff to dig into today.
But first, we're going to start with a few quicker, I won't say
quick, but quicker fire questions to get us started to
keep keep the momentum and taking steps and looking at the
definition of what is a modern day marketer when it comes to
sports and sports media. Phil, if we can start with you
(04:23):
there. Really, All right.
There's so much information, there's so much data out there.
You've got to be able to read and react to the marketplace
really quickly because it changes very quickly.
We look at it through the lens of consumption and engagement
and, and I think every sports property looks at it through the
same thing. How many people are watching,
attending and how many people are hanging out in your social
network? And so I think the modern day is
(04:46):
that blend of consumption, engagement and monetization of
that model. Jenny, I would say modern day
marketer is the chief architect of the consumer experience now
and in the future. I think if you keep the consumer
at the centre now and what they're doing in the future,
that sort of keeps you relevant and makes sure that you continue
to be a modern day marketer. Robert How's How does the modern
(05:07):
day marketer differ to say what the role might have entailed 10
years ago? I think it's mainly different
because of the how many different platforms and avenues
there are that you have to be somewhat adept at marketing.
So you know, you have to be a creative leader, you have to be
a data scientist, you have to bea behavioural psychologist.
There's a lot of skill sets because they're so the sprawl is
(05:30):
so wide and far so it's it can be challenging.
So looking more towards the fan,what's the modern day sports
consumer look like, Jenny? I think the sports consumer is
very community minded, digitallysavvy, tends to be first mover,
mobile first given you know whatwe've seen.
I would say beyond that it becomes very specific based on
(05:53):
what sport and what sort of league you're talking about and
there are nuances within each ofthose.
Something like the Olympics which we have coming up, very
interesting consumer as you see for us, two out of three
millennials are interested in more Olympic content every day,
not just during the Olympics. And that's one out of two
actually in the Gen. Z2.
So you have to go in and dive into each of the individual
(06:16):
sports to understand that's consumer.
But overall, I think like I said, technological, mobile
minded, streaming first kind of savvy.
Phil. I agree with all that.
I think that's that's bang on. I'm I'm the level of distraction
that the fan has now and though their willingness to engage
throughout an entire sports property or a sports event has
(06:38):
been almost eliminated. So you've now got to be moment
to moment, understand what's going on in the game that could
be relevant to the consumption and then feed that in and and
hope it hits. Let's talk about measures of
success. Robert, what's 1 of some of the
key drivers that you guys followfor for success and consumption
around all the marketing activity you're doing?
(06:59):
Well, we're TV network first andforemost.
So our primary measure of success is ratings and viewers.
So that is primary and with thatis attached to obviously the
revenue that keeps us healthy. The secondary things, of course,
are social engagement, attentionand growth.
Jenny, anything different for you there?
I would just add to it being that we have TV and streaming
(07:20):
with our NBC platform and cable as well as Peacock.
It's like you said, it's attention, intention,
acquisition, retention, engagement.
I think there are metrics in allof those.
I feel obviously you have a different angle on that because
you're obviously coming from thesports property lens.
Right. So we're very interested in, in,
in consumption and, and and viewership.
We're very interested obviously in engagement in our social
(07:42):
platforms. We also are in service of our
teams who are trying to get a live attendance right and
continue to serve that fan and alive experience.
And then we have other, other engagement platforms like merch
sales and betting and consumption on our, our owned
and operated platforms. So these are all, you know,
(08:02):
additional measures in addition to.
Just a quick one back to that and and you raised a good point
on your owned and operated. Just from a broadcaster and
platform perspective, how important is the, the, the
attraction of first party data and and users to the platform
versus looking just at the ratings and side of things?
Jenny, I mean you obviously havea lot of that access to that
information. Are you using that as a primary
measure or is that more a by product of the acquisition of
(08:25):
those audiences? Absolutely primary measure and I
think we look at through every all of our campaigns through
that data acquisition as well lens and that first party lens.
I think the beauty of being partof a company like NBC Universal
is that we also have a larger platform with data.
So it gives us in sports the opportunity to take something
that we have and go out and makeit richer and more valuable, and
(08:46):
then use that data to go out andtarget and, you know, find new
audiences to our properties. Some of the a more a more easier
question here is biggest challenge facing a sports
marketer right now, Robert, any big challenges facing you these
days? No, it's all good.
It's all, it's all, it's all icecream and puppy dogs.
No, I mean, I think the biggest or, or you know, there's a
(09:10):
hundred challenges. One big challenge on the TV side
when you're talking about audiences before is this kind of
line of demarcation. There's a whole generation of
sports fans who watch games, which obviously is the lifeblood
of what we do. And then there's this whole
generation of sports fans who only are following sports in
bits and bytes on social platforms and they're as well
(09:33):
versed and they will self reportas huge NBA fans and never watch
an NBA game or an NFL game. So I don't know where exactly
where that line is, somewhere around 35 years old or
something. But that is, I think the big
existential challenge of sports marketing and sports teams and
sports leagues is will we be able to convert all those fans
(09:54):
who don't actually go to a game or watch a game into people who
who behave the way traditional sports fans have?
Phil, what's your view on that? You obviously had that more
complete sports lens. Is it a similar challenge to
Robert? Basically, he's outlined there
as well. Identical like, like, like,
it's, it's, it's identical. It is we're, we're running
parallel paths right now. We're, we're driving awareness
(10:17):
and and reason to tune in to onedemographic on television.
But at the same time, we're trying to use our content and
our, our platforms and our, our app to storytell and, and lean
into what the younger generationcares about around sport, which
is, is, may not be the outcome of the game, but it's the people
within the game are they are theathletes sharing the same values
(10:38):
that they share. So we need to get that content
out into the ecosystem, see whatresonates with the, with the fan
and then double down on that. And, and so we're running these,
this parallel offense on both, both consumer sets.
And it's, it's, it's, it's working, but it's challenging.
Yeah, and, and real quick, the unknown and the hope is, of
(10:58):
course, that at some point thosepeople who are engaging with the
content and and all that will become the people who watch it.
But we really don't know yet, right?
We haven't really had that generational shift.
So there's a lot riding on that outcome.
Other than that, everything's hunky Dory.
And to, just to, to, to lean on what Robert said there about
(11:21):
obviously the, the access of insight around consumption
activity on a linear network versus a, a platform, let's say
Peacock, Peacock in your instance, how valuable is that
insight that you can get from the, the platform itself versus
what you can get from linear? Because obviously there is an
insight gap when you have a linear, linear offering versus
(11:42):
the the platform, it's a OTT platform, right?
I mean, there are and there aren't actually.
I mean, we have pretty good insights using other other sort
of opportunities and ways of finding out if somebody comes in
and watches a Sunday football game or watches the Olympics, we
do have a good sense of what else they are consuming.
But to your point and something like Peacock, you absolutely
(12:04):
know what other thing that person is consuming.
But what it does for us is creates an amazing Infinity loop
because the insights we can gather on Peacock around the
sports watcher can then help fuel and term us on the TV side
to better position, better market and better target.
So, so why don't you get it out a little bit?
What are some specific examples you can share on how you target
(12:28):
the casual fans versus the die hard consumer?
Because you can't just target die hards alone.
Otherwise you're you're leaving a whole huge opportunity go to
waste. Phil, if I can start with you.
Sure I would. I would divide our fan base into
four buckets that that we addressed that we're going to
address this year, right? We have, we have the loyalists,
(12:48):
the WNBA loyalists and we know they're going to be there for us
irrespective of who's playing and, and, and the scores and,
and the outcomes and, and the moments.
They're just fans of the WNBA and that's great.
And, and we'll always be in service of them.
The opportunity for us is this more casual fan who are inspired
by rivalries, who are inspired by big moments by household
names, right? I think the Caitlin Clark
(13:10):
phenomenon that's taken place over the last year or the
Caitlin and Angel phenomenon that started last year at this
time is the human interest stories behind those two
athletes that are that are creating a rivalry in sport.
These people who are consuming that may not be fans of women's
basketball, but they're fans of big moments.
And I think that's our opportunity is how do we create
big moments in our game that will attract that fan, even
(13:35):
though they're ignorant around who the athletes are involved.
But there's, if there's some something at stake, if there's,
if there's a game of consequenceor a rivalry of consequence or
something compelling, we we bring them in and we hope that
that attraction is enough to keep them and they want to come
back and say shit. That was pretty good.
Like I wouldn't mind come back to watch another game or maybe
I'm going to buy a ticket to a game.
And that's that's the ultimate right.
(13:56):
So we're using, we're using rivalry, we're using
performances, we're using household names to bring in the
casual fan with the hope of of deepening the engagement.
Robert, from your perspective again, you have a slightly
different, slightly different position, definitely from Phil's
perspective. Are you actively trying to
target those different persona groups heavily around those
sports moments though? Seems we're all very much living
(14:17):
in an events based, moment basedmarketing world these days is
that you really have to focus onthose different persona types.
Yeah, I I think the casual fan is everything to what we do.
Look no further than today's March, whatever 20th, whenever
March Madness is about to start and you're going to see tons of
people who have not watched a single college basketball game
(14:38):
really go crazy for the next couple of weeks engaging in
this. And those are the the casuals
were brought in by the social currency of the moment.
They want to be part of the conversation.
They want to be part of that social kind of environment.
You can't get a big sporting moment without that.
It just can't happen. So you have to bring those
casuals in. And as a marketer, you always
(14:59):
have this tension of you, you. I feel like you have to market
to the casuals. And by doing that you inevitably
can piss off the Avids because the Avids are very precious
about their thing. But that's a trade off I'll take
every single time because the growth can only come from the
casuals. And you'll see it this month,
you know for sure. And.
Particularly when you have a a linear proposition where the the
(15:21):
barriers to entry are are so much lower than say premium pay
for proposition. As you've had a a nice sort of
challenge the last last season with the NFL in terms of the
playoff side of things. How did you find the, you know,
coming up with a marketing strategy that resonated with
those different persona types? Yeah.
I mean, I think like you said, they both kind of set it
together. I mean, you're looking from the
(15:42):
casual perspective as the peoplethat are coming in for the big
event, for the moment, for the, you know, the Tom Brady when he
returned to Foxborough type of moment.
That's where you're sort of leaning into it.
And I think it's the combinationof what you're saying, where
you're going and telling really rich, deep stories to reach the
Avids and then taking the casuals and bringing them in
through other, other means. The example I'd actually give
(16:05):
would be something we've recently done with the Olympics
and casual fans, which is 180° difference.
What we've ever done before is advertising that we have with
Peyton Manning and Megan the Stallion and Lily Collins from
Emily in Paris and Dolly Parton and the Minions.
And people who are not necessarily into the Olympics
maybe that much all of a sudden are fans of those talents.
(16:27):
And so now all of a sudden you're generating a fan base and
a connection that they're getting more awareness and
intent against the Paris Games. There is a lot of focus energy
around talent and creator and influencer marketing these days.
It seems to be the primary and even secondary focus of a lot of
organizations in the sports basethese days.
Let me Jenny back to you just for a for a second on that.
How are you seeing that translate?
(16:49):
You know, you can see some greatnumbers on social media
innately. Are you seeing that transfer to
audiences and can customers on your platforms or is it still
difficult to measure the the transferability of that that
awareness on social? Yeah, it's a great question.
I think they the answer lies in what are you doing with that
talent OR that influencer? Are you just trying to create a
(17:10):
combustible moment? Then the engagement and the
numbers and the impressions might be the, you know, the key
result that you're looking for. Or are you actually looking for
conversion? I think if you're going to find
the conversion, then the person or the people that you go out
to, the talent have to be authentic, basically connected
to the storyline and the productthat you are then advertising.
(17:31):
Otherwise it's just a moment with impressions versus them
connected directly to what you're bringing people to.
And I, we have seen conversion and I think we will see
conversion based on what we've done, especially for the
Olympics. You can just kind of look in the
comments and people's excitementthen banging the stallion fans,
their excitement and and thinking around the Olympics now
because of her connection to it is quite palpable that you can
(17:53):
see. And Phil, over to you on that
question. You, you know, basketball is
innately connected with culture in this country as much as any
sport. Do you, are you really having to
lean into that now And you are you seeing results or is it, is
it a bit sort of early stages toreally define the value it gives
to those expanded audiences on social directly to the WNBA
itself? Complicated answer to a simple
(18:15):
question and I complicate everything.
That's what I do for a living. We're fortunate that we have
three lanes that we can play in the WNBA.
We can talk about the excellenceof the game on court.
They are the best athletes in the world of what they do or
not. Their cultural influencers, You
know, their influence on fashion, on design, on on
personal care and and how they show up to every game in in game
(18:37):
is again, unquestionably the themost influential in that space
in sport. And then we have, you know, the
3rd lane of, of social justice and purpose that is
authentically connected. And I think that's a big point
is, is, are your influencers authentically connected to your
game? And are the athletes
authentically connected to again, the lane they want to
(18:58):
play in? And, and we go through that
formula. We go through that filter all
the time because as much as we'dlike to have that Big Bang of
impressions and have an influencer, you know, say that,
you know, promote the West or promote something within there,
but then be be lost and not be authentic.
It's, I think it's, it's not sustainable and it doesn't, it
(19:18):
doesn't create conversion. And I think that's what we're
looking for. So we look for that authentic
path for both our athletes and our influencers to play within
each, each one of those three lanes, performance, culture and
and purpose. And we're fortunate that we have
quite a an expansive runway to play in.
Over the years, there's there's always been a challenge with
marketing at the sort of the macro level of I don't know what
they quite what the right sayingis, but it's something like I'm
(19:42):
not coming for you yet, Robert, but shortly that is it.
Something like 5050% of marketing is very effective.
I don't know which 50% or whatever the percentage might
be. Do you?
I think there's the, it's like something like 50% of marketing
is very effective, 50 is percentis total waste.
But I I can't tell which one is which.
So is that hard or easy these days with the access to all the
(20:04):
data points that we we have? Maybe actually if I start with
you there Jenny, before I've gotto open up on the macro
marketing thing with? I think much easier, I mean
thank goodness to all of the organizations both internally
and externally that have sort ofpopped up be able to help us
measure. And like I said, we are quite
strong on both the linear and the streaming platforms with
regard to what's working from the paid media models.
(20:27):
They're really in depth analysisto be able to understand as well
as, you know, just the pure algorithms, right, that are
helping you understand and know from the standpoint of
performance media or whether you're just in sort of the
awareness and attention media. So I actually think we're we're
smarter than we ever were. We're more defined than we ever
(20:47):
were. And certainly it helps us be so
much more efficient with our dollars and our spends.
Are you saying that you'll be spending more than Jenny, more
time on the conversion versus engagement now or are you trying
to make sure that I don't know. From a marketing perspective, I
imagine it can be very easy to look towards the conversion bit
more and more because it's the easiest to track that it's
(21:09):
easier now to track than ever. Do you have to keep holding
everyone back a little bit to say let's focus on making sure
the engagements there first before we try and get them over
the line? It's a great question.
I think you actually have to build organisations to do both
separately. You don't necessarily want to
have one balanced and then one out of balance.
You do want to focus on the acquisition piece.
But that engagement, retention is just as important because
(21:33):
then if you lose someone, you'reback to square one with
acquisition, which then is even more costly than the first time.
So I think it's creating those at least two of those pillars,
if not more and having that conversion focus, but then also
that retention engagement focus for sure.
So looking more at looking at the strategic side of things,
taking a step back again, Robert, from your point of view,
(21:55):
what's that macro marketing mix look like today?
How? How are you seeing your where
you? Where are you prioritizing
resource in your own time? The marketing modelling mix, if
we were talking about it backstage, it's, it's something
that I feel is one of the great pieces of alchemy of marketing
and every media agency and everybody I've ever spoken to.
I say, can you tell me what is the ideal marketing mix if you
(22:18):
have a $100 between radio, billboard, social, TV, linear,
experiential, what is the optimal mix to hit a consumer,
convert them into either a buyeror a viewer or whatever The
thing is? And nobody's ever been able to
provide an answer. And I've had them prepare white
papers. And because there is no answer,
if it was that easy, there'd be an Excel sheet and you wouldn't
(22:39):
need marketers. So that is the the eternal
question for me. We'll all walk out of this hotel
today and we'll walk through Times Square.
Maybe we'll see a billboard for,I don't know, you know, Adidas.
Is that more valuable than the TV commercial we'll see during
the WNBA draft? Is that more valuable than the
(22:59):
posters we see in the subway or what you know, or the social
post that we see from Angel Reese about Adidas and where is
the tipping point? And how do you spend your media
dollars to maximize that? And the answer is, I think
there's no answer, right? It's, it's a bit of alchemy that
everybody is trying to to do their best with, with as much
info and data as we have. But again, it's not an Excel
(23:20):
sheet. It won't spit out the correct
answer. And Phil, from your perspective,
you know, are you spending almost, I'm guessing my
hypothesis would be that you're spending a lot of time and
effort on the social, social media as the primary marketing
channels. But is is that just one part of
many or is that really the primary focus for you and in all
sorts of different angles and directions?
(23:41):
It's definitely a primary angle.I I think it's, it's important
because that's where we can readand react immediately.
We're live sports, So what happens in the middle of a game,
we can get out there. I've, I've, I've built a
phenomenal team of storytellers who are empowered to use
subjectivity and not lean on data on every decision that
(24:02):
needs to get made. It just takes too long.
So they have a gut and they havea direction and I let them go.
And that happens on social. The app might be a little more
curated because, you know, the content might be a little longer
and might be a little more, you know, story and direction and,
and briefing around what we wantto deliver.
But in our social channels, there's a green light for them
(24:24):
to go because we're live sport and we can't wait because every
single platforms out there having a point of view on what
we're showing every night. So we need to be nimble and we
need to go and, and they're the best.
We use television and our our Big Brother, the NBA,
institutional media to drive TuneIn.
TuneIn is still a huge part of, you know, our metrics, our
(24:46):
measured metrics. And and you know, as Robert said
earlier, it's, it's, it's hard to to, you know, take someone
who you're driving messaging through social and force them to
go to another platform called television and tune into a
channel called ESPN. What is that?
I don't even know what that is. I think there's an app, but I
don't know if there's a channel.And so this conversion from
(25:08):
social marketing to linear consumption, it's hard.
So we use the NBA as a platform to get institutional media.
They give us some media. So we'll be on TV and we'll have
messaging. And for the first time ever,
we're going to have messaging during the tournament because
last year, 10 million people watched the NC 2A women's final
game. I want to be in front of that
(25:29):
audience because I'm not getting10 million watching our game.
So if they're watching television, they're watching
women's basketball. And they love great players and
they love rivalries and competition.
I want to be in front of them inthat moment while they're doing
that. So we're taking a big step that
you're in buying linear media for the first time in the WNBA
history because I need to get TVviewers watching TV, watching my
(25:51):
TV. When you're looking at the
strategy for the WNBA, how much time are you looking at what the
teams are doing and the athletesand how how, how much do you
have to work with them? Or are you mainly focused on
your own channels, your own, what you can control?
Just what's that dynamic like? We're we're always in service of
the teams. We're, we're as successful as
the 12 teams are and soon to be thirteen teams are.
(26:13):
So we work extraordinarily hard at at the marketing side with
the with the local teams, again,just to communicate and say,
like, here are the stories we'retelling here, the athletes we're
profiling here, the rivalries we're creating and and we can do
some of the heavy lifting for you.
So the teams don't have to do asmuch as the lifting.
And I think that's just an efficiencies.
And we recognize that the teams probably aren't as fully staffed
(26:36):
as as the league is. So we can do some of the lifting
on the big moments like season start, All Star game,
Commissioners Cup, these big macro moments and then let the
teams worry about the 20 home games that they need to market
and and promote locally. But, you know, we'll identify
who the athletes are, will work with them and, and it's again,
very much a shared model. And then the third piece of
(26:56):
this, of course, is the athletes.
There's 144 athletes who are also trying to help build their
respective brands. So, you know, we, we, we want to
leverage their popularity acrossone of those three lanes I
mentioned earlier and try to get, you know, them in line with
what we want to do. Because it it works when when
the players and the teams in theleague are all pointing in the
(27:16):
same direction and going, I think we're in good shape.
I would add in there the players, the team, the league
and their media partner are alsopointing in the same direction
because everything that Phil just brought up is actually what
makes today's partnerships successful if they're done
right, which is actually get into business together with your
organizations versus move away from just the transactional.
(27:37):
I purchased something from you. Thank you.
I'm going to put it on our distribution channels and create
more of a relationship. And he brought up resources,
which he's right. We look at something like the
Olympics and these Olympians that are coming into Paris, they
are working a job, they're training, you know, 20 hours a
day or whatever it is. And they don't have time to
build their own personas. And so then you look at the
(27:59):
USOPC, which is a nonprofit organization.
And then we are now their media partner.
So we band together and we actually launched just over a
year ago a project that we called Fortius, where we, as NBC
Universal actually are beta testing with about 20 Olympians
and Paralympians, a social content creation in house
agency. So we do content capture, we
(28:22):
edit, we provide it for them, wedo shoots with them.
And actually their their social have grown tenfold since we
started over the last year, which is just unheard of for
anyone in social to grow that fast.
But our theory and you guys I think would agree is, is those
athletes grow. So do intenders and people who
want to follow them to Paris andto the Paralympics.
(28:45):
And so that's sort of the investment we're making and we
want to continue to make those with our leagues and our
partners. It's a great investment.
I'm I'm sure you'll get a lot ofpeople knocking on your door to
get involved next time around. To turn into a lot bigger, so
we're going to need a bigger boat.
I can imagine you raised a greatpoint, Jenny, around the the mix
and the relationship or the partnership you have as a
broadcast partner with a sports property.
(29:08):
Robert, how are there any specific examples of how you
approach that with some of the major sports properties you're
working with? Because if you're not in SIG,
then there could be a lot of wastage, miscommunication,
different messaging, and ultimately everyone should be
trying to work as closely together as possible.
So you're all all happy days andready to sign off the next
cycle. Absolutely.
I mean, Jenny, it's a great, great point.
(29:29):
I'm glad you you threw that in. I can tell you, as you know, we
have obviously several big league partners that you all
watch on TV. The difference between when
you're truly partnered with a league and a broadcast partner
and how you work together and how you maximize everything
about your, your shared content is enormous.
And when you don't have a good partnership, when you're both
(29:51):
kind of in separate camps or kind of very transactional, as
you said, it suffers. There's absolutely no doubt.
And it's one of the paradoxes of, you know, where we are now.
All the leagues or most of the leagues are spreading their
content far and wide and they have many, many media partners.
And what happens, you know, kindof by nature is the more you as
(30:13):
a media outlet are diluted of the product, the less skin you
have in the game. A little bit if product X and
I'm not going to name a league, but if product X is 50% of my of
my networks business, I am very,very vested in the success of
product X Product X takes my their product and gives it to
(30:35):
today. Now I have 16% of my business is
it I'm not as vested. So it's kind of one of the the
challenges of the modern era where all the leagues and all
the properties want to be spreadout on many different broadcast
partners. But by doing that, you kind of
dilute the incentive to go all in on a partnership.
When you have something like theOlympics, where there's one
(30:55):
network and one partner, you areworking together all the time
and growing in the same direction, it makes an enormous
difference. But Robert and I have done a
good job in our decades. We've we're only 29.
So we haven't been in that long of working together on when,
when a league has come in that we both have and they have sort
of put their product on both of us.
We've always had good partnership and connection to
(31:18):
try to make sure that we're at least marketing in a way where
we don't confuse consumers. And you know, one in 1 = 4.
I think you're both hitting on the exact same thing, which I
which I love and the the other output of, of dilution across
multiple channels is makes it hard to be a fan.
And, and it's always been hard to be a fan of women's sports
period. Because again, they've, they've
(31:40):
had to start their consumption on a digital platform.
So they're, you know, Jenny mentioned it earlier, like, like
the youthful fan is very digitally savvy because they've
had to be if you want to watch women's sports.
It wasn't on broadcast, wasn't on Luna.
You had to go on to some, some streaming platform, a twitch or
meta or something. And, and, and it was hard.
And and so as we as we grow our our options for consumption, we
(32:04):
have to then double down on being very surgical and how we
message how to engage and consume that game.
And it's because it's not MondayNight Football on the same
channel for 27 years type thing like it's, it is new every
single week. Now we have some partners that
are are aligning with dates and it it you know, we have we have
destination programming on Thursday nights with Amazon and
(32:24):
Friday nights with Ion. And this type of behavior is
going to help our consumer consume the game.
And that has been one of the biggest hurdles is I just don't
know where to find the game out.If you want to watch the liberty
tonight, I don't know how. So we have to do, you know,
double down again on that communication.
And it's not very sexy. It's not very fun creatively,
marketing wise, to say TuneIn Saturday at 3 on ABC, but that
(32:48):
is part of the formula you need to do to again serve that fan.
What are the tricky parts of we,we often in the industry, we'll
talk a lot about the, the big media rights deals, the big
numbers that get shared about what who X is paying Y for those
rights to and access. What doesn't get covered a lot
is I think probably some of the details that I assume are in a
lot of those terms, which are inregards to the the coverage and
(33:11):
the marketing support that comesaround those sports rights.
And I imagine even from Phil from WNB as perspective, you're
also always trying to push more,more coverage and more
visibility on platforms, particularly if they're a
partner. Can you give us a bit of insight
into the into what that looks like?
Robbie, you're chuckling, so I'mgoing to say yeah, go to you
first there. I'm.
Very interested in this this. Is just how, how much does that
(33:33):
come into play, whether you're brought in at different stages?
Is it, is it after the fact we now got to get to work now and
does everyone's got to get the most value out of this
relationship or so you have to play a bit of a role in in that
conversation before it gets to crunch time on deal making.
I'll give you the I'll give you the the, the typical rights deal
kind of overview in a shocking headline.
(33:54):
It's all about the money. So whoever has the bigger check,
that's normally where the rightsgo.
A fast follower is, but how muchmarketing are you going to give
us? And in the contract talks, it
becomes a very quick conversation from what's the
rights fee to the league or property, putting in a heavy,
heavy dose of marketing contractual requirements which
(34:16):
are often ridiculous and unattainable.
And then you have to chip away, chip away, chip away.
And then the deal guys start getting nervous.
Oh, we can't say no to them for that.
And I'm like, well, I don't think they're going to walk
away. I think it's going to be OK.
They they're really interested in the money more than the
marketing. The marketing's the nice to have
that they push really hard on. And sometimes you have to kind
of push back a little bit because it's just not realistic
(34:38):
what they ask for. Jenny, same experience for you.
I'm going. To leave that to no.
I would. Say, I would happily report that
I think that the more we've worked with partners, I think
the trust and the partnership has been built to a level where
less and less there is the desire to put something in
(35:00):
that's contractually obligated. I think a lot of that is because
we're all realizing that we're in this together and growing
someone's league or team or business for them is just as
good as us growing ours. And so I think it becomes, you
want to have something on paper because, you know, the people
that did the deal might not be there in 1-2, three, four years.
(35:21):
So obviously you want to have something that's memorialized.
But I, I, I'm happy to say that once that piece of paper gets
signed for us, it typically getsput in a drawer and we're
allowed to just go do good business together.
Because at the end of the day, what we agreed on this year,
there might be completely new platforms a year from now that
(35:42):
none of us knew about or contemplated.
And we want to go in that direction.
So I like that we sort of put things in a drawer and just are
allowed to do really great work together in today's world.
And that makes a lot of sense. I think at the the top end of
rights where everyone, everyone's so incentivized, it's
so measurable, etcetera. But when you get into say the
Tier 2 sports properties, it canget a little bit trickier.
(36:03):
You really do need that added exposure.
I I'm thinking some examples of even Formula One was widely
reported, yet Amazon put a higher bidding for those rights.
It's 2030% higher. But they don't have didn't have
any of the the shoulder programming, the magazine
content, the news coverage, etcetera to bring that to life
where obviously a player like ESPN and others can bring that
(36:24):
to the fore. And in this day and age with
digital sponsorship, sponsorshiprevenue is going up and up.
The social media value is going up and up in terms of its our
ability to generate more returns.
It seems like that is maybe shifting a little bit and in
markets like the UK and Europe, there's your your counterparts,
Sky out there that I think are one of the hardest negotiators
(36:46):
in the industry because they canplay that card better than
anyone. There isn't the breadth of
choice on sports, sports channels in a market like the UK
like there is here. I feel from to that point, do
you take a little bit of a different lens on that?
It is the shoulder programming, the the extraditional media news
coverage, a real key part of that exposure day-to-day because
(37:07):
if you just focus on the live broadcast, that is a primary
measure. Is there a trade off there you
have to be aware of? I think the mix of rights and,
and support of those rights, youknow, inclusive of a shoulder
programming is integral to the growth right in the expansion
of, of our markets and our, our,our fan base.
You know, I'm hoping that our, our broadcast partners are don't
(37:29):
fall into the trap of being great hunters and lousy
gatherers. Sign the big deal and do nothing
to support it because that doesn't help anyone.
Like, yeah, we have cash. But if the audience isn't
growing, if the support isn't coming from our partners.
And I, I, you know, I love the fact that the leagues, you know,
the success of leagues is, you know, directly connected to the
success and in the partnerships with our, with our broadcast and
(37:52):
streaming partners, you know, finding creative ways.
It doesn't just have to be, you know, the old marketing of old
shoulder programming is a great opportunity.
The quality of talent that is, you know, representing your
sport in that network is really important because we do know
that broadcast talent is a huge,huge draw to, to fans.
Some people will only watch TonyRomo call a football game and
(38:13):
other people will never watch Tony Romo call a football game.
And and so being a part of thosediscussions as well, It doesn't
just have to be the way it used to be.
Here's here's 50 bucks for for rights.
Here's 20 bucks for marketing. And yeah, we'll do our best to
make sure everyone knows. I think there's creative ways to
take that $20 and spend it differently.
That isn't just the way it used to be.
(38:34):
I think Nick, real quick, I think you're just asking about
leverage really when you talk about these rights deals, the
biggest properties have a lot ofleverage when they're at the
table to demand and put contractual requirements for
marketing, shoulder support, talent approvals, all these
things. And the Tier 2, Tier 3
properties have less leverage when they're at the negotiating
table and they can desire those things, but are more, you know,
(38:56):
they have less ability to, to, to kind of force that issue.
Absolutely. In a couple of minutes I've got
open to questions from the floor, but we've talked about a
whole host of different areas. One thing we haven't talked a
lot about is sort of the the delineation between different
sports. And Robert, from your
perspective, you have a a bevy of rights around NFL and
college. Are there any discernible
differences on how you market those two sets of rights?
(39:17):
Are they Yeah. Are there any discernible
approaches you take a more regionalized approach on the
college side or is it a fairly I?
Can't say there is a a market difference creatively or
messaging strategy wise between college and professional.
When you talk about media buyingand it's can be a lot more
regional with college and you'retrying to hit certain markets.
(39:37):
But the overall kind of brandingmessaging, I don't find it very
different. I think we're it's all the same
stuff. It's all good guys and bad guys
and rivalries and social, the ability to connect with the
emotional content that you want to be a part of, connect with
your friends, families, relatives, wear colors, cheer,
go crazy for something that means absolutely nothing at the
(39:58):
end of the day, in a in a way. And that's what we're selling
kind of over and over with different variations.
Later on today, I'll be talking on a Gen.
Z panel with with particularly with one of the the executive
Becky Kimbrough, who's from San Antonio Spurs and they've
obviously had victim Webb and Yama joined.
They the NBA took some moves early on to even broadcast
(40:18):
matches from the French league there to really ride the wave.
And he seems to have delivered on for for the NBA as well As
for the Spurs in terms of awareness, reach, etcetera.
Obviously there's another big name in the in the basketball
world and women's basketball at the moment.
You may have heard of Caitlin Clark, as we've talked about a
little bit before. Obviously she's announced that
she's going to the draft. She the draft is coming really
(40:39):
soon. Feel.
What are some of the things you're having to do to prepare
for that? And there seems to be a lot of
inertia, a lot of interest from the media apparently, around
that. I'm just going to let her roll.
I think we're just going to, youknow, just sit back and, and
let, let Caitlin do what Caitlindoes.
No, it's been wild. It's been some of my team are,
are, are sitting here. They're it's all we think about
(41:00):
24/7 because it's all the media's talking about.
And it's not just Caitlin. There are some tremendously
talented one name athletes coming into our league and and
you know that that just doesn't happen in the WNBA, right.
So we're we're embracing the opportunity to leverage all eyes
upon us. And, and again, kudos to, you
(41:23):
know, the groups at Fox and NBC for again, recognizing the value
that women's college basketball has to the fan of basketball,
the fan of competition, the fan of big moments around setting
records. Like they saw it so that
everyone else could see it. And, and I think it's our turn
now to kind of carry the torch. OK, You were now getting our
(41:46):
opportunity to do the same thing, identifying what are the
moments for Caitlin and the other rookies coming in?
What are the moments for our twosuper teams?
And, you know, how will Caitlin,you know, play against the best
team in the land, which is the Las Vegas Aces?
There's there's 12 athletes on the Aces who want to shut
Caitlin down all night, every night.
And and so it's, it's going to be competitive and it's fun and,
(42:06):
and we're, we're blessed with the opportunity, but pretty
terrified around whether we're really maximizing what's in
front of us. Are we meeting this moment and
are we taking it so that we can lead to the next moment?
And I think that's what we're all working on at the West.
I'd much rather have this problem to solve than than than,
you know, insignificance. So it's it's a good spot for us.
(42:29):
If it's a questions from the audience, if we can see any
hands up, there is a mic that can be brought over coming your
way, right behind you. 321 therewe go.
Hi. Well, then say your name as well
before you. Yeah.
My name is Luis Fernandez and I have a question for for
Jennifer, Phil and and Robert. So you were very interesting
conversation. So you were talking about, I
(42:52):
would say first of all, people are tuning to watch the game.
So the most important thing are athletes, the moments, the game
and the clubs and the teams depend on the league.
The league depends on, on the outlets to spread the, the sport
and ultimately bring more fans and more, you know, spreads the,
the beauty of the sport. So as you were saying before 15
(43:15):
years ago, TV, linear TV was theway to go.
There was nothing else going on really.
Now we're in a moment of a transition where platforms,
different generations are comingto play different ways to engage
them, different ways to talk to them.
So I would say, and you were talking about partnerships, how
can you give sometimes the same level of no transactional but
(43:39):
relationship between the outlet and the league if they want to
spread across. So the question is, how do you
see this moment in five years? How would you say things will be
as the new norm from now to fiveyears?
Robert, how did I get how did I get nominated?
(44:00):
The at least one of those thingsat school where you see the kid
that looks away, you're like the.
Crystal Ball for five years. I, you know, we'll see.
But my concern is that it gets more fragmented.
It gets more difficult for the fan to find their content.
The the sports fandom universe gets more siloed and more
siloed, as you know, as they're more platforms and things are
(44:23):
put behind pay walls and are areare are taken away from
broadcast television, which remains the giant mass vehicle
of reach for for live sports that has sustained this industry
as that gets lessened. And I think we're going to see
more of it within the in five years.
I think it's worse for fans. I think it's worse for
broadcasters. I think it's worse for the
(44:44):
leagues. It'll be worse for the players
as there will be less money as the, the Rs at, you know, whole
different discussion about RSNS.But the, the, the, the ruptures
in the system are significant. And I think they will continue
probably for the five years and hopefully there will be some
sort of rebound, but I'm not sure where it will be.
But it will be more difficult than today, I think.
(45:06):
Phil, just quickly on your point.
From your point of view, what doyou see change in the next?
Five, you know, I think, I thinkcommunal consumption of the game
won't have to be live, right. I think, I think we're going to
get to replace the teams in the in the leagues that can get to
shared viewing experience through a medium that is not a
live game is going to be the onethat that figures it out first.
(45:28):
And and again, it's it's there are examples of it right now.
You can go into some of the streamings and you can have
community dialogue and discussion, but that level of
engagement has got to continue to grow so that everyone in this
room can all sit in our living room and watch the same event
and be a part of something that is a community.
And, and it was mentioned earlier, that's really important
(45:50):
for sport. And then we're going to watch it
for the same reason. Or, or, you know, they'll be,
they'll be communities within the community who watch it for
the gambling aspect or the pure competition of the game or
because, you know, they, they, they have an attraction to one
of the athletes because they share a value with that group.
So I think communities will, will flourish in this, you know,
(46:13):
in the future, in, in the five year future, but I'm not sure
who and, and how, but I, I, I think that's a big part of
success. And digital communities in
particular, like not. Yeah, OK anyone, We have pretty
quick, quick fire. One more question if there is
one. Yeah, there's a Yep.
Let's go. Hello.
OK. Hi, Eugenia.
So just one question. I mean, on average, average
(46:34):
American gets about OCS, about 5000 ads a day.
What do you do to battle ad fatigue?
Yes, sports is exciting and all of that, but again, after 5000
ads, you don't see ads anymore. So what sort of advice you will
give someone when it comes to battling ad fatigue?
Jenny, you want to take the one?What?
What's when battling ad fatigue?I do think you're bringing up
(46:57):
incredible point. Attention is the most important
thing that you are going to be driving towards.
Creativity is our friend. I would answer quickly with a
really incredible quote from Mark Cuban from a couple weeks
ago at the NBA Tech Summit, where just in the world of
social, he was remarking that inthe world of social media, it's
not about what you want to create or what you think is
(47:17):
going to pop. You actually have to go in and
understand what are the metrics and algorithms behind each of
those platforms and lean into that learning in order to say
what you have is going to be successful.
So it's not as much about what you want to tell people, but at
least in the world of social, it's a lot of what's going to
pop on those platforms that are then going to be successful.
(47:39):
So I think balance your other creative and doing what you want
to do to generate attention and then make sure you're really
listening on the social platforms to be successful in
the future and. Let's not even get into the the
definition of what an advertisement is these days.
It's particularly on social sponsored content and live.
But that is all we've got time for.
A big thank you to Phil, Robert and Jenny for joining us.
(48:01):
Now before you go, if you liked what you heard today, be sure to
rate and review and just let me know what you think on social.
You can find me on both social platforms as sports pro Nick.
And please do spread the word ofthe podcast.
There's no better way of marketing than word of mouth,
whether that be in person or on social media.
And if you don't like what you've heard, or you think we
should be doing more or less of something, then reach out and
let me know. As I'd love to.
(48:22):
Hear from you. Thanks Stream timers until next
time.
Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 138 of Streamtime
Sports. I'm your host, Nick Meacham, CEO
at Sports Pro and through to be joining you once again.
And thank you, as always, for all your time and effort
listening in to this podcast. This pod's a bit of a different
one. I've been sitting on this
podcast for a little while waiting for the right time to
drop it. And for a couple of reasons.
(00:31):
One is I think it's a really, really interesting discussion.
And two, basically because I'm on leave for a few days.
So I thought this would be a great one to drop in the mix and
make sure you're not missing outon any of the high quality
stream time sports action we're producing here at Sports Pro.
But honestly, this podcast and indeed this panel discussion was
recorded at Sports Pro New York in March and is with three of
(00:55):
the best in the business when itcomes to marketing leadership in
the sports space. I was joined by Phil Cook, the
CMO at WNBA, Jennifer Storms, who's the CMO at NBC Universal,
and Robert Gottlieb, who's the President of marketing at Fox
Sports. And if you take a step back and
see what we as an industry talk about when it comes to sports
(01:17):
media, we talk a lot about content creation.
We don't always talk a lot abouthow do you actually turn the
content into delivering marketing excellence, marketing
performance, more eyeballs, moreawareness and ultimately
conversion of audiences. And now these three guests have
all very different approaches and different businesses, even
(01:38):
though you could say that Fox and and NBC are two very big
broadcasters, yes. But NBC Universal's
organization, which we've recently covered in a podcast as
part of our Comcast discussion is much more nuanced to that.
They have the Peacock business, they have the NBC main linear
channels. They're doing more creative
things around the Premier League.
And of course, they have the Olympics rights and make a huge
(02:02):
effort in producing some of the best broadcast content in the
live sports arena around that event each year.
And now that the fact that that's going to be in in Paris
in this year in only a couple ofmonths time, I think the
conversation around what they'redoing is interesting as it's
shifted around how they're usingathletes and personalities to
tell more of the stories than ever before now.
So the couple, some of the couple of questions we're
(02:24):
talking about here in this conversation range, not only
with how to be a great marketer,but indeed, even when does a
marketer start getting involved in the conversation around media
rights? Or at what stage does someone
like the WNBA have to kick into gear talking about how they
maximize the Caitlin Clark effect to make sure they get the
(02:44):
most value out of that situationand help grow the lead,
particularly when there's so many different stakeholders at
play in the organization? I also talked to them quite a
bit about how they actually measure success now.
Is it more complicated now or isit more difficult to try and
drive value out of marketing given all the different channels
that you've got at your disposal?
So it's a real big deep dive into effectively how to be a
(03:07):
great marketer in the sports media landscape.
And I do really think you'll enjoy this.
It's it's fast-paced with a lot of insight and a great dynamic
between between my guests. So hope you enjoy the listen and
hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
But that's enough for me. It's time for me to hand over to
me talking to Phil Cook, Jennifer Storms and Robert
Gottlieb. Hope you enjoy.
(03:39):
Really exciting panel this one. Really happy to be able to kick
off day 2 with this pretty illustrious group.
So to my left, we have Jenny Storms, who is the CMO for NBC
Universal, Phil Cook, who is theCMO for WNBA at the end there,
and Robert Gottlieb, who is the president of marketing for Fox
Sports. So we're going to spend a lot of
time talking about all the nuances, let's say, with
(04:01):
marketing in the modern era around sports and sports media.
So lots of good stuff to dig into today.
But first, we're going to start with a few quicker, I won't say
quick, but quicker fire questions to get us started to
keep keep the momentum and taking steps and looking at the
definition of what is a modern day marketer when it comes to
sports and sports media. Phil, if we can start with you
(04:23):
there. Really, All right.
There's so much information, there's so much data out there.
You've got to be able to read and react to the marketplace
really quickly because it changes very quickly.
We look at it through the lens of consumption and engagement
and, and I think every sports property looks at it through the
same thing. How many people are watching,
attending and how many people are hanging out in your social
network? And so I think the modern day is
(04:46):
that blend of consumption, engagement and monetization of
that model. Jenny, I would say modern day
marketer is the chief architect of the consumer experience now
and in the future. I think if you keep the consumer
at the centre now and what they're doing in the future,
that sort of keeps you relevant and makes sure that you continue
to be a modern day marketer. Robert How's How does the modern
(05:07):
day marketer differ to say what the role might have entailed 10
years ago? I think it's mainly different
because of the how many different platforms and avenues
there are that you have to be somewhat adept at marketing.
So you know, you have to be a creative leader, you have to be
a data scientist, you have to bea behavioural psychologist.
There's a lot of skill sets because they're so the sprawl is
(05:30):
so wide and far so it's it can be challenging.
So looking more towards the fan,what's the modern day sports
consumer look like, Jenny? I think the sports consumer is
very community minded, digitallysavvy, tends to be first mover,
mobile first given you know whatwe've seen.
I would say beyond that it becomes very specific based on
(05:53):
what sport and what sort of league you're talking about and
there are nuances within each ofthose.
Something like the Olympics which we have coming up, very
interesting consumer as you see for us, two out of three
millennials are interested in more Olympic content every day,
not just during the Olympics. And that's one out of two
actually in the Gen. Z2.
So you have to go in and dive into each of the individual
(06:16):
sports to understand that's consumer.
But overall, I think like I said, technological, mobile
minded, streaming first kind of savvy.
Phil. I agree with all that.
I think that's that's bang on. I'm I'm the level of distraction
that the fan has now and though their willingness to engage
throughout an entire sports property or a sports event has
(06:38):
been almost eliminated. So you've now got to be moment
to moment, understand what's going on in the game that could
be relevant to the consumption and then feed that in and and
hope it hits. Let's talk about measures of
success. Robert, what's 1 of some of the
key drivers that you guys followfor for success and consumption
around all the marketing activity you're doing?
(06:59):
Well, we're TV network first andforemost.
So our primary measure of success is ratings and viewers.
So that is primary and with thatis attached to obviously the
revenue that keeps us healthy. The secondary things, of course,
are social engagement, attentionand growth.
Jenny, anything different for you there?
I would just add to it being that we have TV and streaming
(07:20):
with our NBC platform and cable as well as Peacock.
It's like you said, it's attention, intention,
acquisition, retention, engagement.
I think there are metrics in allof those.
I feel obviously you have a different angle on that because
you're obviously coming from thesports property lens.
Right. So we're very interested in, in,
in consumption and, and and viewership.
We're very interested obviously in engagement in our social
(07:42):
platforms. We also are in service of our
teams who are trying to get a live attendance right and
continue to serve that fan and alive experience.
And then we have other, other engagement platforms like merch
sales and betting and consumption on our, our owned
and operated platforms. So these are all, you know,
(08:02):
additional measures in addition to.
Just a quick one back to that and and you raised a good point
on your owned and operated. Just from a broadcaster and
platform perspective, how important is the, the, the
attraction of first party data and and users to the platform
versus looking just at the ratings and side of things?
Jenny, I mean you obviously havea lot of that access to that
information. Are you using that as a primary
measure or is that more a by product of the acquisition of
(08:25):
those audiences? Absolutely primary measure and I
think we look at through every all of our campaigns through
that data acquisition as well lens and that first party lens.
I think the beauty of being partof a company like NBC Universal
is that we also have a larger platform with data.
So it gives us in sports the opportunity to take something
that we have and go out and makeit richer and more valuable, and
(08:46):
then use that data to go out andtarget and, you know, find new
audiences to our properties. Some of the a more a more easier
question here is biggest challenge facing a sports
marketer right now, Robert, any big challenges facing you these
days? No, it's all good.
It's all, it's all, it's all icecream and puppy dogs.
No, I mean, I think the biggest or, or you know, there's a
(09:10):
hundred challenges. One big challenge on the TV side
when you're talking about audiences before is this kind of
line of demarcation. There's a whole generation of
sports fans who watch games, which obviously is the lifeblood
of what we do. And then there's this whole
generation of sports fans who only are following sports in
bits and bytes on social platforms and they're as well
(09:33):
versed and they will self reportas huge NBA fans and never watch
an NBA game or an NFL game. So I don't know where exactly
where that line is, somewhere around 35 years old or
something. But that is, I think the big
existential challenge of sports marketing and sports teams and
sports leagues is will we be able to convert all those fans
(09:54):
who don't actually go to a game or watch a game into people who
who behave the way traditional sports fans have?
Phil, what's your view on that? You obviously had that more
complete sports lens. Is it a similar challenge to
Robert? Basically, he's outlined there
as well. Identical like, like, like,
it's, it's, it's identical. It is we're, we're running
parallel paths right now. We're, we're driving awareness
(10:17):
and and reason to tune in to onedemographic on television.
But at the same time, we're trying to use our content and
our, our platforms and our, our app to storytell and, and lean
into what the younger generationcares about around sport, which
is, is, may not be the outcome of the game, but it's the people
within the game are they are theathletes sharing the same values
(10:38):
that they share. So we need to get that content
out into the ecosystem, see whatresonates with the, with the fan
and then double down on that. And, and so we're running these,
this parallel offense on both, both consumer sets.
And it's, it's, it's, it's working, but it's challenging.
Yeah, and, and real quick, the unknown and the hope is, of
(10:58):
course, that at some point thosepeople who are engaging with the
content and and all that will become the people who watch it.
But we really don't know yet, right?
We haven't really had that generational shift.
So there's a lot riding on that outcome.
Other than that, everything's hunky Dory.
And to, just to, to, to lean on what Robert said there about
(11:21):
obviously the, the access of insight around consumption
activity on a linear network versus a, a platform, let's say
Peacock, Peacock in your instance, how valuable is that
insight that you can get from the, the platform itself versus
what you can get from linear? Because obviously there is an
insight gap when you have a linear, linear offering versus
(11:42):
the the platform, it's a OTT platform, right?
I mean, there are and there aren't actually.
I mean, we have pretty good insights using other other sort
of opportunities and ways of finding out if somebody comes in
and watches a Sunday football game or watches the Olympics, we
do have a good sense of what else they are consuming.
But to your point and something like Peacock, you absolutely
(12:04):
know what other thing that person is consuming.
But what it does for us is creates an amazing Infinity loop
because the insights we can gather on Peacock around the
sports watcher can then help fuel and term us on the TV side
to better position, better market and better target.
So, so why don't you get it out a little bit?
What are some specific examples you can share on how you target
(12:28):
the casual fans versus the die hard consumer?
Because you can't just target die hards alone.
Otherwise you're you're leaving a whole huge opportunity go to
waste. Phil, if I can start with you.
Sure I would. I would divide our fan base into
four buckets that that we addressed that we're going to
address this year, right? We have, we have the loyalists,
(12:48):
the WNBA loyalists and we know they're going to be there for us
irrespective of who's playing and, and, and the scores and,
and the outcomes and, and the moments.
They're just fans of the WNBA and that's great.
And, and we'll always be in service of them.
The opportunity for us is this more casual fan who are inspired
by rivalries, who are inspired by big moments by household
names, right? I think the Caitlin Clark
(13:10):
phenomenon that's taken place over the last year or the
Caitlin and Angel phenomenon that started last year at this
time is the human interest stories behind those two
athletes that are that are creating a rivalry in sport.
These people who are consuming that may not be fans of women's
basketball, but they're fans of big moments.
And I think that's our opportunity is how do we create
big moments in our game that will attract that fan, even
(13:35):
though they're ignorant around who the athletes are involved.
But there's, if there's some something at stake, if there's,
if there's a game of consequenceor a rivalry of consequence or
something compelling, we we bring them in and we hope that
that attraction is enough to keep them and they want to come
back and say shit. That was pretty good.
Like I wouldn't mind come back to watch another game or maybe
I'm going to buy a ticket to a game.
And that's that's the ultimate right.
(13:56):
So we're using, we're using rivalry, we're using
performances, we're using household names to bring in the
casual fan with the hope of of deepening the engagement.
Robert, from your perspective again, you have a slightly
different, slightly different position, definitely from Phil's
perspective. Are you actively trying to
target those different persona groups heavily around those
sports moments though? Seems we're all very much living
(14:17):
in an events based, moment basedmarketing world these days is
that you really have to focus onthose different persona types.
Yeah, I I think the casual fan is everything to what we do.
Look no further than today's March, whatever 20th, whenever
March Madness is about to start and you're going to see tons of
people who have not watched a single college basketball game
(14:38):
really go crazy for the next couple of weeks engaging in
this. And those are the the casuals
were brought in by the social currency of the moment.
They want to be part of the conversation.
They want to be part of that social kind of environment.
You can't get a big sporting moment without that.
It just can't happen. So you have to bring those
casuals in. And as a marketer, you always
(14:59):
have this tension of you, you. I feel like you have to market
to the casuals. And by doing that you inevitably
can piss off the Avids because the Avids are very precious
about their thing. But that's a trade off I'll take
every single time because the growth can only come from the
casuals. And you'll see it this month,
you know for sure. And.
Particularly when you have a a linear proposition where the the
(15:21):
barriers to entry are are so much lower than say premium pay
for proposition. As you've had a a nice sort of
challenge the last last season with the NFL in terms of the
playoff side of things. How did you find the, you know,
coming up with a marketing strategy that resonated with
those different persona types? Yeah.
I mean, I think like you said, they both kind of set it
together. I mean, you're looking from the
(15:42):
casual perspective as the peoplethat are coming in for the big
event, for the moment, for the, you know, the Tom Brady when he
returned to Foxborough type of moment.
That's where you're sort of leaning into it.
And I think it's the combinationof what you're saying, where
you're going and telling really rich, deep stories to reach the
Avids and then taking the casuals and bringing them in
through other, other means. The example I'd actually give
(16:05):
would be something we've recently done with the Olympics
and casual fans, which is 180° difference.
What we've ever done before is advertising that we have with
Peyton Manning and Megan the Stallion and Lily Collins from
Emily in Paris and Dolly Parton and the Minions.
And people who are not necessarily into the Olympics
maybe that much all of a sudden are fans of those talents.
(16:27):
And so now all of a sudden you're generating a fan base and
a connection that they're getting more awareness and
intent against the Paris Games. There is a lot of focus energy
around talent and creator and influencer marketing these days.
It seems to be the primary and even secondary focus of a lot of
organizations in the sports basethese days.
Let me Jenny back to you just for a for a second on that.
How are you seeing that translate?
(16:49):
You know, you can see some greatnumbers on social media
innately. Are you seeing that transfer to
audiences and can customers on your platforms or is it still
difficult to measure the the transferability of that that
awareness on social? Yeah, it's a great question.
I think they the answer lies in what are you doing with that
talent OR that influencer? Are you just trying to create a
(17:10):
combustible moment? Then the engagement and the
numbers and the impressions might be the, you know, the key
result that you're looking for. Or are you actually looking for
conversion? I think if you're going to find
the conversion, then the person or the people that you go out
to, the talent have to be authentic, basically connected
to the storyline and the productthat you are then advertising.
(17:31):
Otherwise it's just a moment with impressions versus them
connected directly to what you're bringing people to.
And I, we have seen conversion and I think we will see
conversion based on what we've done, especially for the
Olympics. You can just kind of look in the
comments and people's excitementthen banging the stallion fans,
their excitement and and thinking around the Olympics now
because of her connection to it is quite palpable that you can
(17:53):
see. And Phil, over to you on that
question. You, you know, basketball is
innately connected with culture in this country as much as any
sport. Do you, are you really having to
lean into that now And you are you seeing results or is it, is
it a bit sort of early stages toreally define the value it gives
to those expanded audiences on social directly to the WNBA
itself? Complicated answer to a simple
(18:15):
question and I complicate everything.
That's what I do for a living. We're fortunate that we have
three lanes that we can play in the WNBA.
We can talk about the excellenceof the game on court.
They are the best athletes in the world of what they do or
not. Their cultural influencers, You
know, their influence on fashion, on design, on on
personal care and and how they show up to every game in in game
(18:37):
is again, unquestionably the themost influential in that space
in sport. And then we have, you know, the
3rd lane of, of social justice and purpose that is
authentically connected. And I think that's a big point
is, is, are your influencers authentically connected to your
game? And are the athletes
authentically connected to again, the lane they want to
(18:58):
play in? And, and we go through that
formula. We go through that filter all
the time because as much as we'dlike to have that Big Bang of
impressions and have an influencer, you know, say that,
you know, promote the West or promote something within there,
but then be be lost and not be authentic.
It's, I think it's, it's not sustainable and it doesn't, it
(19:18):
doesn't create conversion. And I think that's what we're
looking for. So we look for that authentic
path for both our athletes and our influencers to play within
each, each one of those three lanes, performance, culture and
and purpose. And we're fortunate that we have
quite a an expansive runway to play in.
Over the years, there's there's always been a challenge with
marketing at the sort of the macro level of I don't know what
they quite what the right sayingis, but it's something like I'm
(19:42):
not coming for you yet, Robert, but shortly that is it.
Something like 5050% of marketing is very effective.
I don't know which 50% or whatever the percentage might
be. Do you?
I think there's the, it's like something like 50% of marketing
is very effective, 50 is percentis total waste.
But I I can't tell which one is which.
So is that hard or easy these days with the access to all the
(20:04):
data points that we we have? Maybe actually if I start with
you there Jenny, before I've gotto open up on the macro
marketing thing with? I think much easier, I mean
thank goodness to all of the organizations both internally
and externally that have sort ofpopped up be able to help us
measure. And like I said, we are quite
strong on both the linear and the streaming platforms with
regard to what's working from the paid media models.
(20:27):
They're really in depth analysisto be able to understand as well
as, you know, just the pure algorithms, right, that are
helping you understand and know from the standpoint of
performance media or whether you're just in sort of the
awareness and attention media. So I actually think we're we're
smarter than we ever were. We're more defined than we ever
(20:47):
were. And certainly it helps us be so
much more efficient with our dollars and our spends.
Are you saying that you'll be spending more than Jenny, more
time on the conversion versus engagement now or are you trying
to make sure that I don't know. From a marketing perspective, I
imagine it can be very easy to look towards the conversion bit
more and more because it's the easiest to track that it's
(21:09):
easier now to track than ever. Do you have to keep holding
everyone back a little bit to say let's focus on making sure
the engagements there first before we try and get them over
the line? It's a great question.
I think you actually have to build organisations to do both
separately. You don't necessarily want to
have one balanced and then one out of balance.
You do want to focus on the acquisition piece.
But that engagement, retention is just as important because
(21:33):
then if you lose someone, you'reback to square one with
acquisition, which then is even more costly than the first time.
So I think it's creating those at least two of those pillars,
if not more and having that conversion focus, but then also
that retention engagement focus for sure.
So looking more at looking at the strategic side of things,
taking a step back again, Robert, from your point of view,
(21:55):
what's that macro marketing mix look like today?
How? How are you seeing your where
you? Where are you prioritizing
resource in your own time? The marketing modelling mix, if
we were talking about it backstage, it's, it's something
that I feel is one of the great pieces of alchemy of marketing
and every media agency and everybody I've ever spoken to.
I say, can you tell me what is the ideal marketing mix if you
(22:18):
have a $100 between radio, billboard, social, TV, linear,
experiential, what is the optimal mix to hit a consumer,
convert them into either a buyeror a viewer or whatever The
thing is? And nobody's ever been able to
provide an answer. And I've had them prepare white
papers. And because there is no answer,
if it was that easy, there'd be an Excel sheet and you wouldn't
(22:39):
need marketers. So that is the the eternal
question for me. We'll all walk out of this hotel
today and we'll walk through Times Square.
Maybe we'll see a billboard for,I don't know, you know, Adidas.
Is that more valuable than the TV commercial we'll see during
the WNBA draft? Is that more valuable than the
(22:59):
posters we see in the subway or what you know, or the social
post that we see from Angel Reese about Adidas and where is
the tipping point? And how do you spend your media
dollars to maximize that? And the answer is, I think
there's no answer, right? It's, it's a bit of alchemy that
everybody is trying to to do their best with, with as much
info and data as we have. But again, it's not an Excel
(23:20):
sheet. It won't spit out the correct
answer. And Phil, from your perspective,
you know, are you spending almost, I'm guessing my
hypothesis would be that you're spending a lot of time and
effort on the social, social media as the primary marketing
channels. But is is that just one part of
many or is that really the primary focus for you and in all
sorts of different angles and directions?
(23:41):
It's definitely a primary angle.I I think it's, it's important
because that's where we can readand react immediately.
We're live sports, So what happens in the middle of a game,
we can get out there. I've, I've, I've built a
phenomenal team of storytellers who are empowered to use
subjectivity and not lean on data on every decision that
(24:02):
needs to get made. It just takes too long.
So they have a gut and they havea direction and I let them go.
And that happens on social. The app might be a little more
curated because, you know, the content might be a little longer
and might be a little more, you know, story and direction and,
and briefing around what we wantto deliver.
But in our social channels, there's a green light for them
(24:24):
to go because we're live sport and we can't wait because every
single platforms out there having a point of view on what
we're showing every night. So we need to be nimble and we
need to go and, and they're the best.
We use television and our our Big Brother, the NBA,
institutional media to drive TuneIn.
TuneIn is still a huge part of, you know, our metrics, our
(24:46):
measured metrics. And and you know, as Robert said
earlier, it's, it's, it's hard to to, you know, take someone
who you're driving messaging through social and force them to
go to another platform called television and tune into a
channel called ESPN. What is that?
I don't even know what that is. I think there's an app, but I
don't know if there's a channel.And so this conversion from
(25:08):
social marketing to linear consumption, it's hard.
So we use the NBA as a platform to get institutional media.
They give us some media. So we'll be on TV and we'll have
messaging. And for the first time ever,
we're going to have messaging during the tournament because
last year, 10 million people watched the NC 2A women's final
game. I want to be in front of that
(25:29):
audience because I'm not getting10 million watching our game.
So if they're watching television, they're watching
women's basketball. And they love great players and
they love rivalries and competition.
I want to be in front of them inthat moment while they're doing
that. So we're taking a big step that
you're in buying linear media for the first time in the WNBA
history because I need to get TVviewers watching TV, watching my
(25:51):
TV. When you're looking at the
strategy for the WNBA, how much time are you looking at what the
teams are doing and the athletesand how how, how much do you
have to work with them? Or are you mainly focused on
your own channels, your own, what you can control?
Just what's that dynamic like? We're we're always in service of
the teams. We're, we're as successful as
the 12 teams are and soon to be thirteen teams are.
(26:13):
So we work extraordinarily hard at at the marketing side with
the with the local teams, again,just to communicate and say,
like, here are the stories we'retelling here, the athletes we're
profiling here, the rivalries we're creating and and we can do
some of the heavy lifting for you.
So the teams don't have to do asmuch as the lifting.
And I think that's just an efficiencies.
And we recognize that the teams probably aren't as fully staffed
(26:36):
as as the league is. So we can do some of the lifting
on the big moments like season start, All Star game,
Commissioners Cup, these big macro moments and then let the
teams worry about the 20 home games that they need to market
and and promote locally. But, you know, we'll identify
who the athletes are, will work with them and, and it's again,
very much a shared model. And then the third piece of
(26:56):
this, of course, is the athletes.
There's 144 athletes who are also trying to help build their
respective brands. So, you know, we, we, we want to
leverage their popularity acrossone of those three lanes I
mentioned earlier and try to get, you know, them in line with
what we want to do. Because it it works when when
the players and the teams in theleague are all pointing in the
(27:16):
same direction and going, I think we're in good shape.
I would add in there the players, the team, the league
and their media partner are alsopointing in the same direction
because everything that Phil just brought up is actually what
makes today's partnerships successful if they're done
right, which is actually get into business together with your
organizations versus move away from just the transactional.
(27:37):
I purchased something from you. Thank you.
I'm going to put it on our distribution channels and create
more of a relationship. And he brought up resources,
which he's right. We look at something like the
Olympics and these Olympians that are coming into Paris, they
are working a job, they're training, you know, 20 hours a
day or whatever it is. And they don't have time to
build their own personas. And so then you look at the
(27:59):
USOPC, which is a nonprofit organization.
And then we are now their media partner.
So we band together and we actually launched just over a
year ago a project that we called Fortius, where we, as NBC
Universal actually are beta testing with about 20 Olympians
and Paralympians, a social content creation in house
agency. So we do content capture, we
(28:22):
edit, we provide it for them, wedo shoots with them.
And actually their their social have grown tenfold since we
started over the last year, which is just unheard of for
anyone in social to grow that fast.
But our theory and you guys I think would agree is, is those
athletes grow. So do intenders and people who
want to follow them to Paris andto the Paralympics.
(28:45):
And so that's sort of the investment we're making and we
want to continue to make those with our leagues and our
partners. It's a great investment.
I'm I'm sure you'll get a lot ofpeople knocking on your door to
get involved next time around. To turn into a lot bigger, so
we're going to need a bigger boat.
I can imagine you raised a greatpoint, Jenny, around the the mix
and the relationship or the partnership you have as a
broadcast partner with a sports property.
(29:08):
Robert, how are there any specific examples of how you
approach that with some of the major sports properties you're
working with? Because if you're not in SIG,
then there could be a lot of wastage, miscommunication,
different messaging, and ultimately everyone should be
trying to work as closely together as possible.
So you're all all happy days andready to sign off the next
cycle. Absolutely.
I mean, Jenny, it's a great, great point.
(29:29):
I'm glad you you threw that in. I can tell you, as you know, we
have obviously several big league partners that you all
watch on TV. The difference between when
you're truly partnered with a league and a broadcast partner
and how you work together and how you maximize everything
about your, your shared content is enormous.
And when you don't have a good partnership, when you're both
(29:51):
kind of in separate camps or kind of very transactional, as
you said, it suffers. There's absolutely no doubt.
And it's one of the paradoxes of, you know, where we are now.
All the leagues or most of the leagues are spreading their
content far and wide and they have many, many media partners.
And what happens, you know, kindof by nature is the more you as
(30:13):
a media outlet are diluted of the product, the less skin you
have in the game. A little bit if product X and
I'm not going to name a league, but if product X is 50% of my of
my networks business, I am very,very vested in the success of
product X Product X takes my their product and gives it to
(30:35):
today. Now I have 16% of my business is
it I'm not as vested. So it's kind of one of the the
challenges of the modern era where all the leagues and all
the properties want to be spreadout on many different broadcast
partners. But by doing that, you kind of
dilute the incentive to go all in on a partnership.
When you have something like theOlympics, where there's one
(30:55):
network and one partner, you areworking together all the time
and growing in the same direction, it makes an enormous
difference. But Robert and I have done a
good job in our decades. We've we're only 29.
So we haven't been in that long of working together on when,
when a league has come in that we both have and they have sort
of put their product on both of us.
We've always had good partnership and connection to
(31:18):
try to make sure that we're at least marketing in a way where
we don't confuse consumers. And you know, one in 1 = 4.
I think you're both hitting on the exact same thing, which I
which I love and the the other output of, of dilution across
multiple channels is makes it hard to be a fan.
And, and it's always been hard to be a fan of women's sports
period. Because again, they've, they've
(31:40):
had to start their consumption on a digital platform.
So they're, you know, Jenny mentioned it earlier, like, like
the youthful fan is very digitally savvy because they've
had to be if you want to watch women's sports.
It wasn't on broadcast, wasn't on Luna.
You had to go on to some, some streaming platform, a twitch or
meta or something. And, and, and it was hard.
And and so as we as we grow our our options for consumption, we
(32:04):
have to then double down on being very surgical and how we
message how to engage and consume that game.
And it's because it's not MondayNight Football on the same
channel for 27 years type thing like it's, it is new every
single week. Now we have some partners that
are are aligning with dates and it it you know, we have we have
destination programming on Thursday nights with Amazon and
(32:24):
Friday nights with Ion. And this type of behavior is
going to help our consumer consume the game.
And that has been one of the biggest hurdles is I just don't
know where to find the game out.If you want to watch the liberty
tonight, I don't know how. So we have to do, you know,
double down again on that communication.
And it's not very sexy. It's not very fun creatively,
marketing wise, to say TuneIn Saturday at 3 on ABC, but that
(32:48):
is part of the formula you need to do to again serve that fan.
What are the tricky parts of we,we often in the industry, we'll
talk a lot about the, the big media rights deals, the big
numbers that get shared about what who X is paying Y for those
rights to and access. What doesn't get covered a lot
is I think probably some of the details that I assume are in a
lot of those terms, which are inregards to the the coverage and
(33:11):
the marketing support that comesaround those sports rights.
And I imagine even from Phil from WNB as perspective, you're
also always trying to push more,more coverage and more
visibility on platforms, particularly if they're a
partner. Can you give us a bit of insight
into the into what that looks like?
Robbie, you're chuckling, so I'mgoing to say yeah, go to you
first there. I'm.
Very interested in this this. Is just how, how much does that
(33:33):
come into play, whether you're brought in at different stages?
Is it, is it after the fact we now got to get to work now and
does everyone's got to get the most value out of this
relationship or so you have to play a bit of a role in in that
conversation before it gets to crunch time on deal making.
I'll give you the I'll give you the the, the typical rights deal
kind of overview in a shocking headline.
(33:54):
It's all about the money. So whoever has the bigger check,
that's normally where the rightsgo.
A fast follower is, but how muchmarketing are you going to give
us? And in the contract talks, it
becomes a very quick conversation from what's the
rights fee to the league or property, putting in a heavy,
heavy dose of marketing contractual requirements which
(34:16):
are often ridiculous and unattainable.
And then you have to chip away, chip away, chip away.
And then the deal guys start getting nervous.
Oh, we can't say no to them for that.
And I'm like, well, I don't think they're going to walk
away. I think it's going to be OK.
They they're really interested in the money more than the
marketing. The marketing's the nice to have
that they push really hard on. And sometimes you have to kind
of push back a little bit because it's just not realistic
(34:38):
what they ask for. Jenny, same experience for you.
I'm going. To leave that to no.
I would. Say, I would happily report that
I think that the more we've worked with partners, I think
the trust and the partnership has been built to a level where
less and less there is the desire to put something in
(35:00):
that's contractually obligated. I think a lot of that is because
we're all realizing that we're in this together and growing
someone's league or team or business for them is just as
good as us growing ours. And so I think it becomes, you
want to have something on paper because, you know, the people
that did the deal might not be there in 1-2, three, four years.
(35:21):
So obviously you want to have something that's memorialized.
But I, I, I'm happy to say that once that piece of paper gets
signed for us, it typically getsput in a drawer and we're
allowed to just go do good business together.
Because at the end of the day, what we agreed on this year,
there might be completely new platforms a year from now that
(35:42):
none of us knew about or contemplated.
And we want to go in that direction.
So I like that we sort of put things in a drawer and just are
allowed to do really great work together in today's world.
And that makes a lot of sense. I think at the the top end of
rights where everyone, everyone's so incentivized, it's
so measurable, etcetera. But when you get into say the
Tier 2 sports properties, it canget a little bit trickier.
(36:03):
You really do need that added exposure.
I I'm thinking some examples of even Formula One was widely
reported, yet Amazon put a higher bidding for those rights.
It's 2030% higher. But they don't have didn't have
any of the the shoulder programming, the magazine
content, the news coverage, etcetera to bring that to life
where obviously a player like ESPN and others can bring that
(36:24):
to the fore. And in this day and age with
digital sponsorship, sponsorshiprevenue is going up and up.
The social media value is going up and up in terms of its our
ability to generate more returns.
It seems like that is maybe shifting a little bit and in
markets like the UK and Europe, there's your your counterparts,
Sky out there that I think are one of the hardest negotiators
(36:46):
in the industry because they canplay that card better than
anyone. There isn't the breadth of
choice on sports, sports channels in a market like the UK
like there is here. I feel from to that point, do
you take a little bit of a different lens on that?
It is the shoulder programming, the the extraditional media news
coverage, a real key part of that exposure day-to-day because
(37:07):
if you just focus on the live broadcast, that is a primary
measure. Is there a trade off there you
have to be aware of? I think the mix of rights and,
and support of those rights, youknow, inclusive of a shoulder
programming is integral to the growth right in the expansion
of, of our markets and our, our,our fan base.
You know, I'm hoping that our, our broadcast partners are don't
(37:29):
fall into the trap of being great hunters and lousy
gatherers. Sign the big deal and do nothing
to support it because that doesn't help anyone.
Like, yeah, we have cash. But if the audience isn't
growing, if the support isn't coming from our partners.
And I, I, you know, I love the fact that the leagues, you know,
the success of leagues is, you know, directly connected to the
success and in the partnerships with our, with our broadcast and
(37:52):
streaming partners, you know, finding creative ways.
It doesn't just have to be, you know, the old marketing of old
shoulder programming is a great opportunity.
The quality of talent that is, you know, representing your
sport in that network is really important because we do know
that broadcast talent is a huge,huge draw to, to fans.
Some people will only watch TonyRomo call a football game and
(38:13):
other people will never watch Tony Romo call a football game.
And and so being a part of thosediscussions as well, It doesn't
just have to be the way it used to be.
Here's here's 50 bucks for for rights.
Here's 20 bucks for marketing. And yeah, we'll do our best to
make sure everyone knows. I think there's creative ways to
take that $20 and spend it differently.
That isn't just the way it used to be.
(38:34):
I think Nick, real quick, I think you're just asking about
leverage really when you talk about these rights deals, the
biggest properties have a lot ofleverage when they're at the
table to demand and put contractual requirements for
marketing, shoulder support, talent approvals, all these
things. And the Tier 2, Tier 3
properties have less leverage when they're at the negotiating
table and they can desire those things, but are more, you know,
(38:56):
they have less ability to, to, to kind of force that issue.
Absolutely. In a couple of minutes I've got
open to questions from the floor, but we've talked about a
whole host of different areas. One thing we haven't talked a
lot about is sort of the the delineation between different
sports. And Robert, from your
perspective, you have a a bevy of rights around NFL and
college. Are there any discernible
differences on how you market those two sets of rights?
(39:17):
Are they Yeah. Are there any discernible
approaches you take a more regionalized approach on the
college side or is it a fairly I?
Can't say there is a a market difference creatively or
messaging strategy wise between college and professional.
When you talk about media buyingand it's can be a lot more
regional with college and you'retrying to hit certain markets.
(39:37):
But the overall kind of brandingmessaging, I don't find it very
different. I think we're it's all the same
stuff. It's all good guys and bad guys
and rivalries and social, the ability to connect with the
emotional content that you want to be a part of, connect with
your friends, families, relatives, wear colors, cheer,
go crazy for something that means absolutely nothing at the
(39:58):
end of the day, in a in a way. And that's what we're selling
kind of over and over with different variations.
Later on today, I'll be talking on a Gen.
Z panel with with particularly with one of the the executive
Becky Kimbrough, who's from San Antonio Spurs and they've
obviously had victim Webb and Yama joined.
They the NBA took some moves early on to even broadcast
(40:18):
matches from the French league there to really ride the wave.
And he seems to have delivered on for for the NBA as well As
for the Spurs in terms of awareness, reach, etcetera.
Obviously there's another big name in the in the basketball
world and women's basketball at the moment.
You may have heard of Caitlin Clark, as we've talked about a
little bit before. Obviously she's announced that
she's going to the draft. She the draft is coming really
(40:39):
soon. Feel.
What are some of the things you're having to do to prepare
for that? And there seems to be a lot of
inertia, a lot of interest from the media apparently, around
that. I'm just going to let her roll.
I think we're just going to, youknow, just sit back and, and
let, let Caitlin do what Caitlindoes.
No, it's been wild. It's been some of my team are,
are, are sitting here. They're it's all we think about
(41:00):
24/7 because it's all the media's talking about.
And it's not just Caitlin. There are some tremendously
talented one name athletes coming into our league and and
you know that that just doesn't happen in the WNBA, right.
So we're we're embracing the opportunity to leverage all eyes
upon us. And, and again, kudos to, you
(41:23):
know, the groups at Fox and NBC for again, recognizing the value
that women's college basketball has to the fan of basketball,
the fan of competition, the fan of big moments around setting
records. Like they saw it so that
everyone else could see it. And, and I think it's our turn
now to kind of carry the torch. OK, You were now getting our
(41:46):
opportunity to do the same thing, identifying what are the
moments for Caitlin and the other rookies coming in?
What are the moments for our twosuper teams?
And, you know, how will Caitlin,you know, play against the best
team in the land, which is the Las Vegas Aces?
There's there's 12 athletes on the Aces who want to shut
Caitlin down all night, every night.
And and so it's, it's going to be competitive and it's fun and,
(42:06):
and we're, we're blessed with the opportunity, but pretty
terrified around whether we're really maximizing what's in
front of us. Are we meeting this moment and
are we taking it so that we can lead to the next moment?
And I think that's what we're all working on at the West.
I'd much rather have this problem to solve than than than,
you know, insignificance. So it's it's a good spot for us.
(42:29):
If it's a questions from the audience, if we can see any
hands up, there is a mic that can be brought over coming your
way, right behind you. 321 therewe go.
Hi. Well, then say your name as well
before you. Yeah.
My name is Luis Fernandez and I have a question for for
Jennifer, Phil and and Robert. So you were very interesting
conversation. So you were talking about, I
(42:52):
would say first of all, people are tuning to watch the game.
So the most important thing are athletes, the moments, the game
and the clubs and the teams depend on the league.
The league depends on, on the outlets to spread the, the sport
and ultimately bring more fans and more, you know, spreads the,
the beauty of the sport. So as you were saying before 15
(43:15):
years ago, TV, linear TV was theway to go.
There was nothing else going on really.
Now we're in a moment of a transition where platforms,
different generations are comingto play different ways to engage
them, different ways to talk to them.
So I would say, and you were talking about partnerships, how
can you give sometimes the same level of no transactional but
(43:39):
relationship between the outlet and the league if they want to
spread across. So the question is, how do you
see this moment in five years? How would you say things will be
as the new norm from now to fiveyears?
Robert, how did I get how did I get nominated?
(44:00):
The at least one of those thingsat school where you see the kid
that looks away, you're like the.
Crystal Ball for five years. I, you know, we'll see.
But my concern is that it gets more fragmented.
It gets more difficult for the fan to find their content.
The the sports fandom universe gets more siloed and more
siloed, as you know, as they're more platforms and things are
(44:23):
put behind pay walls and are areare are taken away from
broadcast television, which remains the giant mass vehicle
of reach for for live sports that has sustained this industry
as that gets lessened. And I think we're going to see
more of it within the in five years.
I think it's worse for fans. I think it's worse for
broadcasters. I think it's worse for the
(44:44):
leagues. It'll be worse for the players
as there will be less money as the, the Rs at, you know, whole
different discussion about RSNS.But the, the, the, the ruptures
in the system are significant. And I think they will continue
probably for the five years and hopefully there will be some
sort of rebound, but I'm not sure where it will be.
But it will be more difficult than today, I think.
(45:06):
Phil, just quickly on your point.
From your point of view, what doyou see change in the next?
Five, you know, I think, I thinkcommunal consumption of the game
won't have to be live, right. I think, I think we're going to
get to replace the teams in the in the leagues that can get to
shared viewing experience through a medium that is not a
live game is going to be the onethat that figures it out first.
(45:28):
And and again, it's it's there are examples of it right now.
You can go into some of the streamings and you can have
community dialogue and discussion, but that level of
engagement has got to continue to grow so that everyone in this
room can all sit in our living room and watch the same event
and be a part of something that is a community.
And, and it was mentioned earlier, that's really important
(45:50):
for sport. And then we're going to watch it
for the same reason. Or, or, you know, they'll be,
they'll be communities within the community who watch it for
the gambling aspect or the pure competition of the game or
because, you know, they, they, they have an attraction to one
of the athletes because they share a value with that group.
So I think communities will, will flourish in this, you know,
(46:13):
in the future, in, in the five year future, but I'm not sure
who and, and how, but I, I, I think that's a big part of
success. And digital communities in
particular, like not. Yeah, OK anyone, We have pretty
quick, quick fire. One more question if there is
one. Yeah, there's a Yep.
Let's go. Hello.
OK. Hi, Eugenia.
So just one question. I mean, on average, average
(46:34):
American gets about OCS, about 5000 ads a day.
What do you do to battle ad fatigue?
Yes, sports is exciting and all of that, but again, after 5000
ads, you don't see ads anymore. So what sort of advice you will
give someone when it comes to battling ad fatigue?
Jenny, you want to take the one?What?
What's when battling ad fatigue?I do think you're bringing up
(46:57):
incredible point. Attention is the most important
thing that you are going to be driving towards.
Creativity is our friend. I would answer quickly with a
really incredible quote from Mark Cuban from a couple weeks
ago at the NBA Tech Summit, where just in the world of
social, he was remarking that inthe world of social media, it's
not about what you want to create or what you think is
(47:17):
going to pop. You actually have to go in and
understand what are the metrics and algorithms behind each of
those platforms and lean into that learning in order to say
what you have is going to be successful.
So it's not as much about what you want to tell people, but at
least in the world of social, it's a lot of what's going to
pop on those platforms that are then going to be successful.
(47:39):
So I think balance your other creative and doing what you want
to do to generate attention and then make sure you're really
listening on the social platforms to be successful in
the future and. Let's not even get into the the
definition of what an advertisement is these days.
It's particularly on social sponsored content and live.
But that is all we've got time for.
A big thank you to Phil, Robert and Jenny for joining us.
(48:01):
Now before you go, if you liked what you heard today, be sure to
rate and review and just let me know what you think on social.
You can find me on both social platforms as sports pro Nick.
And please do spread the word ofthe podcast.
There's no better way of marketing than word of mouth,
whether that be in person or on social media.
And if you don't like what you've heard, or you think we
should be doing more or less of something, then reach out and
let me know. As I'd love to.
(48:22):
Hear from you. Thanks Stream timers until next
time.
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