NFL + ESPN: A streaming power play or a risky marriage?

The NFL and ESPN have struck a landmark deal, but what does it mean when a rights holder becomes a stakeholder? This episode breaks down the strategic implications of the NFL Media handover, ESPN’s evolving content mix, and why these moves could reshape the future of sports broadcasting. Also on the agenda: DAZN’s latest global grab with NHL.TV, new signals from Apple’s MLS data drop, and how the WSL is approaching their TV programming strategy. 

Key Points

• What the NFL Media handover and equity stake mean for sports media
• Why rights holder equity deals are risky 
• ESPN’s identity crisis - Is this a return to live sports or just strategy reboot?
• DAZN’s global play: NHL.TV, subscription bundling, and the end of pay-per-view?
• Apple’s MLS 120K average viewers — strong growth or messy metrics?
• WSL & beer in stadiums: New kickoff slots, fan experience changes, and UK culture shifts

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hello everyone. Welcome back to the next episode
of Stream Time Sports. My name is Chris Stone, the
community lead, joined as alwaysby our CEO, Nick Meacham.
Now Nick, I'm going to have a little bit of a little bit of a
moan about social media platforms.
And I don't know why it just seems more common these days,
but something recently has come up primarily with, I would say
Twitter and LinkedIn are the worst at it is when I've got a

(00:28):
tab open or I exit the app on myphone and then I come back in
and I see a post at the top. It looks really intriguing.
And then it goes and auto refreshes and then I can never
find that post again. I don't remember it always being
that common, but it's happened more and more.
Or for example, like LinkedIn, Iclick on a post and I want to go
back and I want it to take me inmy timeline to where I was when

(00:49):
I clicked out, but then it takesme to a whole new one and I
don't know what it is. Nick, I feel like some of this
auto refresh stuff has been happening a bit more frequently
to me and it's a little bit annoying.
I want to come back exactly where I was.
Do you know why that happens? Tell me, Nick.
I'm going to guess it's because it means you count as more views
and impressions by seeing more stuff.
So if you auto refresh you therefore they see more things

(01:11):
on your page versus going back to the same slides.
It's a simple numbers game I believe.
That's my that's my theory anyway.
It could be you're probably. Right, Nick?
But that doesn't mean I enjoy it.
Like seriously, every time I like click on Twitter and I know
it's X now. Whatever.
Like old habits. But like, literally.
Every time I click on oh that's a really interesting post, then
bam auto refresh before I've even had a chance to read and I
never find the post again. I find it's happening more and

(01:34):
more these days and it's just it's grinding my gears a little
bit. Well, you just need to follow
through and actually watch and consume whatever you want at the
time and then move. Move on with your day rather
than need to come back to it. But I, I do agree I've had that
experience before where I'm like, oh, now I want to find
that thing that I was go look atand it's it's disappeared.
Although I've actually accountedto that and the other not a

(01:55):
counter, but I yeah, contrastinggripe or issue with those same
sort of social platforms is a couple of times I'm like on
Instagram or, or an ex and it's serving me just utter crap.
Let's just be be blunt. And so I leave the page because
I'm like, oh, I have to cut them.

(02:16):
Why am I, why am I on X again? This is really cool.
This stuff's just getting worse and worse.
And the problem is when I open that stuff or if you're on your
phone and you're closing down the app.
So when you like slide, you still got to close.
It depends on what type of phoneyou have, but you sort of open
up there. You can see you, you toggle
through the different apps to close them.

(02:36):
The last screenshot you have is of the really bad or crappy
thing you stepped away from and a couple of times like, oh, that
the reason I left X is because that was not PC what they are
trying to serve me on this platform, but it's still on my
phone. It looks like I've been looking
at this stuff actively when I'm actually running away from the
platform. So I had to make a conscious
effort to get rid of that stuff,especially if kids pick up my

(02:57):
phone or or whatnot as well. But X is an awful, awful place
for that's that sort of stuff now.
So I really go there. Well, well, I basically make a
conscious effort this whenever Iget served stuff that I think's
just ridiculous. Basically, I don't know what the
right term is. Bad content that I don't want to
be served that is offensive or not.

(03:18):
PCI immediately go off platform to try and maybe like let the
algorithms know that I'm not interested in that sort of
stuff. But so far it just keeps coming
more and more. So let's see what happens with X
in the future. But it is not not a nice place
to just, you know, sift and troll through, which maybe is a
good thing for us to keep our social media usage down.

(03:38):
I mean, honestly, Nick, it is incredible because I think I've
mentioned this before. Like my I've got multiple ex
accounts, one that's just for fantasy football and basically
anything that isn't fantasy football or fantasy, it's just
an automatic block. And like I'm just amazed at how
many accounts they still serve to me when it's like clearly
anything you serve me that's notrelated to sports is an instant

(03:58):
block. And it's just like, how do these
people keep accounts keep popping up like the Mike my
block list is in the thousands of just.
Wow, I'm I'm. Curious to know why X keeps like
I well, I have theories as to why they keep serving me this
stuff, but it's like I block anything that isn't sports
related yet it keeps like tryingto pop up into my feet and it's
just like, yeah, it's it's a white place right now.

(04:20):
You need to ask what's the XX's AI tool?
Grok, Grok grok grok. Yeah, ask ask.
It should be able to give you all the answers to that.
I see everyone asking that now. Yeah, it's lazy.
Well, I've got another story I'll tell on Friday about how AI
is not stealing our jobs. But I'll, I'll save that for
another one because we need it. We need to jump into bits.
But you know, Nick, we've not spoken in a couple weeks.

(04:41):
We've both been on our respective holidays off to the
countryside in our countries that we live in, you know,
getting away for a little bit, but we're back in the back in
content never sleeps. You know, we're going to talk
about some of your LinkedIn posts you put there were were
hot fire people, you know, they might not know, but internally
at sports where we say content never sleeps and you are
continuing to serve people some really hot content while you
were away, Nick, and we'll touchon that a little bit more.

(05:03):
But there was some breaking newsthat took place while we were
away, Nick, and we're going to go and cover some of that.
And I think probably the biggestone from a from a scale
perspective is actually one thatactually just broke a couple
days ago. So more recently the others is
that NFL and the ESPN are finalising sort of a landmark
deal with. We've known the NFL has been
looking to try to offload or offset its NFL Media side of the

(05:25):
business. And it looks like that's now
going to be a part of a deal with ESPN where ESPN is going to
acquire some of the products that exist within that from NFL
Network. The NFL is going to get a piece
of equity within ESPN, if I if I've read that correctly, which
I find really interesting. There's different angles to take
on this particular the story just given what we've heard
about the NFL trying to offload this, what we know ESPN is

(05:46):
trying to do by moving to a morestreaming based service.
Lots of different moving parts on this.
But ultimately, you know, the NFL, you know, we can argue by
which statistic you want to do it on or global appeal.
Arguably the biggest sports league in the world, ESPN,
arguably the biggest Sports Network in the world and these
two now coming together. So I mean, maybe what were some
of your first initial thoughts before we start picking this

(06:07):
apart? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, look for me the initial,I have a general thesis on this
and which is that I'm never a fan of when a broadcaster does
an equity deal with a right zone.
I just think that when you startto do that, you just take some
of the edge off your competitivemarket tension for media rights
out. So particularly for the top

(06:28):
players that have a legitimate media rights marketplace, which
you know these days is is less and less, but particularly for
the NFL, the risk when you startto get in bed with anyone
particular partner means that there might be not not not a
complete stop, but a minimization of interest in
working together with the NFL ifthere's more and more insights

(06:51):
to be shared with the respectivecompetitors.
So for example, you think about NBC and all the different
channels by but going today withESPN, would that make them 5 or
10% less interested in paying the premiums for meteorites if
they don't think there's a longer term relationship to bill
with NFL or the ESPESPNS always going to get the first look at

(07:11):
new opportunities as a result ofthis new found relationship.
So I think it's a risky game to play.
That being said, to your point about the scale here, or if
there was anyone, if there was anyone that you would want to do
a deal with of this type of nature, for ESPN, it would be
the NFL and for the NFL it wouldbe ESPN.
So out of any example I can think of, this is the best type

(07:34):
of marriage, particularly given the NFL has made it clear they
don't want to continue to investin creating the breadth of
content they've been doing and distribution production of the
NFL Network and alike. And they have a really great
product in the red zone that nowbecomes a staple of the ESPN
ecosystem. And the new flagship product
that's coming to market gives ussomething really tangible to get

(07:57):
excited about and not just be and aggregation of ESP NS rights
across ESP NS main channels and ESPN Plus.
But now they have a really brandnew exciting shiny asset to add
to the mix. And that's going to be really
compelling for them to be able to market to new customers when
they launch their flagship products soon.
So I think it's a great, so smart move by ESPN. 10% is a lot

(08:22):
if that is true of the ESPN business because and what isn't
clear is it says there's a multi$1,000,000 agreement.
But what we don't see is how much of that's cash, if any, how
much of it's just equity. And the devil is absolutely in
the detail there. Well, one of the things I found
interesting, I agree with you, the equity stakes is something

(08:44):
that's going to be interesting because I think it's probably
more of a long term impact. But our friends at Transmit
Scott had a Scott Young had a post saying, looking back at the
ESPN business, if you think about what its legacy was, and
I'm going to age myself here, think about what it was like
when I was 1015 years old. It was waking up in the morning
to watch SportsCenter and then it was in the evenings to watch

(09:06):
live sports. And for so long that was sort of
the bread and butter of the business.
You had so many great people within the ESPN space in terms
of the different like host they had on SportsCenter, Whereas now
it feels like to some degree, ESP NS gotten a bit away from
that. And like I remember when you,
you know, first take first came out, Stephen A Smith and Skip
Bayless, like that was great. But now it feels like a lot of

(09:28):
sports, not just ESPN itself in America, like these like just,
you know, hot takes like get people riled up.
It feels less and less from the what that traditional ESPN model
was. And the point Scott was making
is you're actually seeing more of these people go and set up
their own media businesses with this idea that ESPN has lost its
way a little bit. And this is almost a move to try

(09:48):
to bring back some of what ESPN originally was, which is
focusing on live sports and someof the news stories that were
around it, such as a sports centre.
It feels like ESPN's gone away from that.
And this is almost a play to tryto pull something like in
because his argument was you look at some of these people,
they end up leaving an ESPN or leaving a Fox Sports and end up
actually being able to do something bigger with their own

(10:09):
media platforms. Because you have things like
YouTube now that or, you know, all the Spotify podcasts allow
people to do this. I thought he had a kind of an
interesting point of this is a play by ESPN to almost try to go
back to its original home, you know, 20 years ago, which I
thought was a a fairly interesting take when I think
about sort of what I remember ESPN as versus kind of where
it's gone into today. Yeah, I think it's an

(10:32):
interesting take on it. Obviously with the deal they get
a number of regular additional regular season games as well as
part of the of the deal. ESPNI think there's there has
been if you followed ESP NS Journey.
I mean whenever I go to the US, obviously ESPN is a staple for
me to tune into. And what has struck me watching

(10:52):
it is they just had these back-to-back talk shows for
hours and hours on end and they lose me a bit.
They just doesn't, doesn't give me the same feel as I used to
get from going and watching ESPN.
Now look, I'm just, I'm sample size of one, you're a sample
size of another one. And they've got obviously the,

(11:14):
the data to prove what works andwhat doesn't.
I, my theory is that there's a couple parts to it that
personality LED content is really valuable for ESPN for a
few reasons. 1 We've seen that athlete and personality based
media businesses creators are onthe rise.
So if you can back the right creators, the right talent and

(11:38):
personalities, it can be a win win for all sides.
Big audience growth on their channels, big audience growth
for you because people want to hear what Stephen A Smith has
got to say on a topic. And that's a genuinely a reason
why people are tuning in to the platform.
To some extent. There's a portion of audience.
It's also the repurpose value. So a lot of those shows are
great to repurpose into podcast,into YouTube clips and then into

(12:02):
bite sized chunks because it's bite, it's a bite sized festive
comments and hot takes as you sort of pointed to.
So there's a lot of repurposing value.
And then the final bit is that creating that sort of content
outside of the cost of the talent themselves isn't actually
really expensive to do versus producing a live map to rather
live content. So an hour of producing a talk

(12:25):
show, which with two talking heads at going at each other or
plus plus will only be a fraction of the cost of filling
that programming slot that it would be for other live matches
they could potentially put into the mix.
So I think there's a few factorsin why this type of content has
been living on whether it's whether ESP NS going to shift
away from that. I doubt it given it seems like

(12:45):
there's more momentum behind that personality LED approach.
But they seem to be recycling through stuff quicker, like a, a
show's dying off or, or, or or talents leaving as quickly as
they can. And that is a cost saving things
because some of the talent costsin are it is unbelievable.
And I think maybe you'll see more of a fundamental reset on

(13:08):
the market there. And maybe that's where ESPN
goes. Actually, we're going to build,
let's stop building up these talent, these these people,
these personalities, because thereason Stephen A has a platform,
the reason a bunch of the talentthey have on their books have
grown to the stars they have that attract these audiences and
are paid really well is because they're working with ESPN.
They have got a ready made audience base in front of them

(13:29):
to build these audiences. Heck, if you and I were given a
slot on ESPNI reckon we'd be we'd we'd get a pretty good
audience chunk even by default, because ESPN is always on a lot
of people's TV's, right? So I'm not saying they're not
talented, whatever, but I'm whatI'm saying is this, because they
have that gravitastic ESPN does that power that draw those

(13:50):
talent that that talent is benefiting off of that.
So I, I, I think there's a bit of a win win there.
And if they move on to bigger things, I'm not sure it's a big
deal for ESPN if they're not having to pay out those
contracts. It just means they bring up the
next star. They're normally rotating in the
background. Different talent in in get
different types of roles, right?Like Richard Jefferson's an

(14:10):
example who's now was appearing on a variety of talk shows and
bits and pieces here and there, building up his expertise,
building up his brand, bringing up here the the trust of the
audience. And now he's a play by play
caller for games right across the the NBA season.
And I think this they'll just keep doing that to keep their
costs on under under what do youcall it under keep on top of

(14:37):
their costs. Basically, they keep on top of
their costs and not have to start paying extortion fees to
the people that are not moving the needle as much as they
perhaps think they are. Well, one I will be interested
in Speaking of a very specific case study within this and in
personalities. I swear, Nick, if they get rid
of Scott Hanson on NFL red zone,we riot.

(14:58):
Like he's just synonymous with the with the product.
And I'll be honest with you, like you talk about talent, he's
amazing when they go to the octobox.
Like, I actually don't know manypeople could just alternate
between eight games going on at one time and like.
I, I wonder, I wonder there Chris, if they have someone like
training in the wings because he's got to be sick someday,
right? Like his friend could be off

(15:18):
for, you know, does I, I, I did hear him say something about it.
He doesn't, he just basically doesn't go to the tort for like
12 hours or something. It's ridiculous.
He just, he's trained his body to like what?
Once he's in game mode, he just he rides it rides the whole way
through and never leaves his position.
There must be someone training in the background somewhere for
that. But.
You would have to be like. I imagine like sitting in some

(15:39):
dark room pretending they're live on ESPN, live on the red
zone. Sorry, but actually there's an
audience of one, which is like one of the producers just now.
You need to do this better, champ.
Whatever your name is, I don't know.
There has to be someone in the in the week.
Some of that must have a backstop.
Or provision. Yeah, there must be.
You know what, Nick? You know I meant, I know I kind

(16:01):
of slagged off AI that I would slag him off on Friday.
I would. I'd be OK if they trained AAI
Scott Hanson so that he just lives on forever.
That's you never know, look, give us a few years of AI and
could AI do that job to some extent?

(16:21):
I think it could absolutely do that.
I mean, we say AI commentary become more and more of a thing,
right? Yeah, I reckon it could.
But yeah, Nick, again, this is astory that we followed for some
time in terms of, you know, the NFL with the media rights and we
knew ESP was going. To try to build that out.
So is there something else you want to add on that I.
I? I see you, Trump.

(16:41):
I would just say that IBI, I'm really fascinated to see how
integrated the products become and how stand alone NFL Network
stays because NFL Network itselfstill has quite a lot of
visibility in a lot of differentplaces.
And now with the ESPN flagship product launching, will you see
the NFL Network actually just bewrapped fully as part of the
ESPN ecosystem, a bit like one of ESP NS channels?

(17:05):
Or will it have its own journey,its own distribution strategy
and will it keep living on like that or or will ESPN lean into
that further and at some stage maybe actively want to broadcast
premium live matches in the NFL Network because of the brand
association etcetera? I doubt it.
But it would just be to see how integrate how much of a pivot in

(17:29):
approach they take with the NF LS assets that they're now about
about to acquire. Well, interesting to say that
because within the story it's it's almost included as a
throwaway line, but I, I know itwon't because I know it'll be
very intentionally negotiated. But it also says that ESPN has
acquired the ability to integrate betting.
Into the coverage that takes place within those things.

(17:50):
So obviously we we've talked about betting what it means in
the USESPN doing different things around there.
But I the fact that that was very intentionally included, you
know, let's you know that there are to your point, how much
integration is there going to bebetween the two products?
Like they very clearly do have an idea of what they want that
to be. Yeah, that I'm still curious to
see what ESPN does because quitefrankly, from everything I've

(18:12):
seen, everything I've heard, theESPN BET project, he's not
working. I watched ESPN on TV or was
watching it on TV and they wouldintegrate ESPN BET into the
conversations into the talk shows and and basically like in
in, I'm not sure the different names of the shows that can get
on, but the NBA on ESPN like or something, I think it's the show

(18:32):
they had and they would look at the different bets and really
focus in on talking about the odds.
That problem comes back to why would someone go to ESPN BET
when they can have just as good or better experience with their
incumbent platform in like DraftKings or Fangel and alike?
That's the problem they still have yet to overcome.
So the fact that there's an integration there is intriguing

(18:55):
to see If they just, it's what you call it, like organic, just,
you know, some betting prices onthe side of the screen or, or
what have you, or whether they really integrate it some way.
I'd love to see them go. Right.
If you want to watch the next play, you have to make a bet.
That would really force some some inertia happening in the
market. Yeah, I don't think that might
be a little bit step too far. Maybe, maybe well speak about

(19:16):
another, you know, broadcaster, streamer who's tried to take off
in the betting space with mixed reviews is the zone.
We're not going to talk about the zone and some of it's
betting, but another story, veryinteresting, at least in my
opinion. Interesting is they've now
acquired the international rights for NHLTV on an
international scale. So again, to me this seems very

(19:37):
similar to what they did by acquiring the NFL game Pass, the
NF LS international package, youknow, one of the few sports
packages that that I pay for. And I think it's interesting,
Nick, in the sense of it actually does kind of follow the
model of what the zone has seemingly done, which is very
rarely does it acquire premium rights in premium markets,
instead going after maybe Tier 2rights or tier 3 rights in

(19:59):
premium markets. And I know you're in
Scandinavia. I know they will have ice hockey
up there. So like it might not be as true
for you as it is in the UK, but,you know, acquiring another set
of major rights, it's on par with the NFL, but it's, you
know, one of the America's big 5leagues to be able to have the
international rights to that. And I think.
Now we've seen how they've integrated NFL Game Pass into

(20:20):
zone, I imagine they're probablygoing to a similar plug and play
model with how they'll put NHLTVinto the app.
But they've gone about acquiringanother set of, you know,
significant rights and it just, they're continuing to.
Build out this wider portfolio within the platform.
Yeah, I think it's the deal theyneeded to do after the NFL.
They've had a couple of other deals that have come to market.

(20:42):
They're not needle movers, they're not name brands to
really stamp their flag in the ground and like hey, we are
going to be serious about becoming the aggregator of OTT
based platforms in the market. You know, the NFL deal was the
needle mover. They paid an extortion amount of
money for that commitment versuswhat I heard was being offered
by their incumbents to get that.But it was very much a we're

(21:06):
putting our flag down that this is our intent and we need a
flagship partner to kick this off and to make other people
take notes. So they were willing to take
that investment and pay a littlebit over the odds for that
commitment. They will tell you in the data
that they're sharing is that they've now got pretty good
momentum on subscriptions. I think it was about 30% or 24%
went up year on year. Hard to determine what, hard to

(21:30):
know how good that is for a few different reasons.
Firstly, what was it the year before that?
How much do they lose in the transition?
We've not had any feedback on those numbers and what what do
they need to be, what's their run rate need to be to basically
justify the cost that they've made because they made a just a
huge commitment through a minimum guarantee for those

(21:50):
those rights. But they are growing audiences
and if they want to make this commitment to this aggregated
play, which I like the the like the concept of, I think it's
quite innovative. I think it makes a lot of sense
if they get a good critical massof these platforms.
And because the NFL is so synonymous with US sports as
well, and fans like us and others who follow US sports will

(22:14):
have some interest in consuming other other US sports if for the
right price. And and what not that they
needed to get another US sports property and sports league on
the books to this level, to thisglobal exclusive deal.
And I think the NHL was the mostnatural partner in this
instance. So I I think it makes a lot of
sense. I think they needed to do this

(22:34):
deal. I think if they didn't get this
deal, they'd be in a lot of they'd be lost in between.
Like we're all in on this approach.
We have this new destination andkind of like, well, there's a
little bit on the side here along everything else.
Like what were the other partners?
They had rally TV, OK, you know rally rally is a good sport, but
it's a targeting a specific audience that is willing to pay
the premiums there courtside 1891 the Fieber LED project not

(22:57):
certainly not the NBA in terms of premium nature, the National
League football. Yep, as I said, don't forget
about the European League of Football for all this American
football fanatics. I know, of course, of course.
And it really that's the, that was a key, just a key deal to
get in place. But they've got some, you know,
second tier, whatever you want, whatever T you want to put them
on, right. So they needed that Mar, another

(23:19):
marquee brand on there. Now, the NHL isn't a massive
subscription driver, but in certain markets, to your point,
like Scandinavia, it could have real cut through, you know,
Sweden, Scandinavia is Sweden, in particular Finland really big
on ice hockey. It's the number one.
It's basically it's the number one sport.

(23:39):
Football and ice hockey go hand in hand here and there's a load
of Swedish players in the National Hockey League now.
There are games available. I don't know the specifics on
the rights, but I don't believe they're available to the extent
where my favourite hometown player who's now playing in the
NHL, can I just watch him on Heartbeat and follow that
particular team? I don't think accessibility is

(24:00):
there. So I think it could have a real
cut for in those markets. I still am a bit concerned with
sports. The sports industry generally
and in particular this relationship is how marketing is
done. So how do they get people to
subscribe to NHLTV on the designplatform when the zone is still

(24:21):
largely unknown in so many of these markets, particularly
probably where the NHL is strongin or Isaki strong.
And that is a bit of like, OK, I'd love to see how much
conversation has already happened on NHL.
We need you to do X to push do zone on our channels and do zone
need to do why to get an NHL visible and how much cross

(24:43):
collaboration there is plus using external channels paid
marketing to really commit to growing these audiences because
it is a huge opportunity. But you know, we've seen it
we've seen it so many times. You can't just build and hope
they will come right. They you have to make the effort
to create awareness and they have the problem that do zone is
still relatively unknown in a load of markets, even after

(25:05):
having things like the Cobb World Cup where none of the
Scandinavian teams, for example,played in.
So it's a it's a there's a lot of work still to be done, that's
for sure. But they needed to do this deal.
Yeah, I mean, I know people in the UK that subscribe to NFL
Game Pass that still can't pronounce the zone correctly.
So like they're they're on the platform every week and so can't
pronounce. But I'm actually going to open
up a different can of worms withthe Zone Nick, which I believe I

(25:28):
saw rumoured with some of their boxing to move away from the
pay-per-view model and to move more to a subscription based
model. 1 of the things I always think is they're going through
this conversation is I subscribeto NFL Game Pass.
I don't subscribe to anything else via design.
At what point do they potentially offer a, I'll say a
la carte monthly pass? Because at the moment I'm not

(25:49):
going to go from NFL Game Pass to NHLTV.
But if instead of paying 180 lbsround fee, you say, hey, we'll
charge you £15 a month, £20 a month, you get access to
everything, the boxing, the NHL.You think that ever happens,
Nick? Is there a reason to do that?
I think there is definitely a reason to that.
I think that is basically it's a, a kind of reinvention of the,

(26:12):
the, the cable approach and and to some extent, you know, you're
paying one fee to get access to all those things.
I think there's a lot of studiesaround this.
I certainly believe in this, that sometimes when you package
up too much into one offer, you actually just dilute the value
the, the, the perception of the value in the eyes of the
customer. So what I mean by that is I've

(26:34):
used this example with other people on F1, but I'll use it.
I'll use it in this case. It's like if I'm a massive NFL
fan, I want, I just live and breathe.
It's in my veins. I don't care what the prices are
basically put right, if it starts to get wrapped into a
bigger product or project or offering and you haven't been a
subscriber before, your perception of what the value is

(26:57):
can be difficult to quantify. But if you've been a subscriber
for a long time, it's a bit different.
You know what you've been paying, you know, kind of know
what the market is. So if it's an anecdotal 1020%
more, you're like, you know what, I probably will.
Why not? That's not not a big stretch.
But if you've never paid it before to get a new customer, I
think sometimes that that means I'm still paying for all this
other content that I don't want.You've got to educate them and

(27:17):
to understanding that, that it'sa really great deal and not to
sound like you're marketing at them too hard.
So it's just a really tricky balance, particularly for new
customers, I think to get their heads around when you start
bundling stuff together. But I, I, I completely agree
that is a great next step. The tricky part comes down to
actually the, the construct of those deals.

(27:38):
So let's say that the framework I'm, I'm going to speculate on
some of the deals. There's a but there's a minimum
guarantee in place with someone like the NFL, OK, that then once
they hit certain thresholds, then it might be a revenue share
component on subscriptions over a certain number.
Now, if you start bundling thosethings together, it becomes
really tricky to dice up and splice and dice those.

(27:59):
Again, you're looking at how thecable approach was basically
done where people are are forcedto pay or there's an allocation
going to each channel depending on what sub deals are kind of
being struck when you if you look into a bundle style
approach. And that's can that can be where
it gets complicated, but that's something that can be worked out
as well. So there's, there's different
models and approaches that can be done.

(28:21):
You know, you can look to different streaming platforms
about consumption to to work that out, But it's a it's a
tricky, A tricky one to navigate.
If they do play that play that play that out.
Now on the boxing front, they doalready offer it, I believe in
the USA subscription offering for their fight sports.

(28:41):
So the fact they've come out andnow said that the the boxing
that they run that I think is backed by Saudi Arabia or the
Riyadh. Seasons.
That series will now be includedin a subscription product.
And I think the guy said that was quoted, he was like the
representative firm for the ministry or whoever was working

(29:04):
for the Saudis there was like it's kill it he pay to view
basically killed the sport or killing the sport or something
to that nature. So I don't think there's only a
pretty much of A choice there, but but I think the net benefit
is they they hopefully have a more sustainable business model
as a result of that. And one less reason why piracy
can be as powerful as it is whenyou're not asking for $100 one

(29:26):
off hit, you can it's adds a much more marginal price tag
attached to it. So yeah, interesting one to
follow for for many reasons. As as as the zone always is.
Well, if I see in 2026 they offer a bundled monthly
subscription, I'm going to claimcredit.
What was interesting very quickly on the Club World Cup,
the tactic they tried, I'm goingto mention is that every time I

(29:49):
logged on to the Club World Cup platform, I immediately got an
e-mail pushing me to subscribe. Every single time.
It was like a push notification on e-mail.
I thought it was a very interesting tactic to think that
that would force, that would push me into a subscription.
I don't think it's quite the right approach that I would
support, but don't try what you can.

(30:11):
You got to try whatever you can to get someone to subscribe
these days. Yeah, maybe like a post Club
World Cup, Spotify rap, you've watched more minutes than
anybody else, the Club World Cupor hey, we saw you really like
Chelsea that maybe that approachwould have.
I don't even know if it's feasible.
I don't know if it would have worked, but I don't know if push
notifications the second I log on is exactly going to do it.

(30:34):
But whatever. We'll we'll we'll see how things
go for his own moon on the next story is one with the WSL here
in the UK where they are now going to have a new Sunday noon,
12:00 PM kickoff slot on Sky Sports.
This will be new for them. They've had the late night, I
say late night, but late Sunday kickoff on Sky Sports.

(30:57):
They've got some other coverage deals across their their media
sale side, but this is new. This is new and exciting having
that noon slot. Nick, I always refer back to the
conversation I had with Melissa Walton at Sale GP where she
talked about when it comes to programming, if you are not the
tier one, what you need to be thinking about is who you're
around, who's immediately beforeyou, who's immediately after

(31:20):
you. And I think I'd seen some
studies they'd seen an uptake inviewership for the late kick off
on Sunday immediately following the pre league 4:30 PM kick off.
I feel like there could be a similar effect that, you know,
if there is a big game at 2:00, 2/30, being immediately in front
of it. And I know that will be the only
reason, but I just always think back to that conversation.

(31:42):
Melissa Lawden said where when it comes to programming, if
you're not the big ticket, make sure you're next to the big
ticket on one side or the other.Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think that's a good piece of advice.
And look, I do think there's still an element of artistry and
science that goes into programming for any of these
types of platforms or if you're the right owner trying to

(32:05):
negotiate where you can get out of it.
I would say that it hasn't been all built all roses for the WSL
since they can really committed to Sky and and BBC.
And I think some of the numbers that came out earlier this year
were showing that there was actually a flattening or perhaps
even decrease in overall ratingsfor the league over the past

(32:28):
season. So I feel that this decision is
is that has been done for a couple of reasons decision one.
Firstly, I would say that you'reright about your point about the
programming side is I remember hearing Sky themselves talk
about the fact that, oh, no, actually I was talking to
someone who'd done some researchon it actually, and the

(32:49):
difference I think it was actually, oh, what was his name?
It'll come to me. Basically he shares some some
data and insight. Thielen.
That's yeah, I think Thielen's is his name.
It was XI think his X Nielsen is.
Now gone. Oh yeah, I know.
I can see his face on LinkedIn right now.
I. Know you're talking about sorry

(33:10):
Phelan, I've I've completely mind blank, but I've been on
holidays. So if you forgive me, but the
data I think he shared with me or showed me was basically
something to do with like the difference in audience when it
was feeding off immediately off the Premier League.
So it was immediately after was significantly stronger when it
was completely stand alone. That was basically the premise
that I think I saw, which doesn't make it it doesn't make

(33:31):
it it doesn't surprise greatly. But with the numbers dipping,
maybe they decided that was no longer the right approach for
those rights and I had to find adifferent time slot for it.
Now there's two other things to consider with the WSL now.
The WS, LS position and identityis still currently very focused

(33:51):
on attracting family audiences. Both two games live and I'd say
watching the live experience, sohaving a game earlier in the day
rather than later in the day just works much better for
families for for those reasons. So therefore that works better
to watch it live in person and for Sky to then be able to
market those and actually be a afunnel and perhaps secure some

(34:15):
later audiences towards the end of the WSL matches.
But actually is where the real activity is happening, right?
That's when the the games are being decided at the beginning,
just before people might be focusing on on the EPL, although
the ear bells in a blackout. So that's another problem
altogether. But they might be watching in
other ways. And so that was that was one

(34:38):
thing and the other thing was I have completely mind blanked on
what I was going to say. So why?
You're why you're thinking aboutthat.
It's feeling Hill. That's it.
I thought it was Hill but I didn't.
Just didn't want to get a Sundaywrong.
Hi, feeling good. Thank you for your insights as
always. I hope you're doing well.

(34:58):
I know he's been, he's definitely been a listener
listener for some time. Yeah.
So anyway, so I think WSL maybe made that shift to try to feed
to really double down on that identity and allow Sky also to
create a bit more around it to see if they can leverage more of
that live time, that live asset,because they aren't paying a lot

(35:19):
for it in comparison to to the EPL.
And they didn't really have muchelse to put in that that earlier
slot. So I think it's a bit of a no
brainer for everyone involved toshift those times.
The question is, will that have any meaningful impact in
ratings, in fandom, etcetera? I think it's definitely a better
slot to have than to not, but Tom will tell.

(35:41):
Yeah, well the other interestingtidbit out of this and it opens
lots of different doors in the way take the conversation.
But for those that don't know, you can't actually purchase beer
at a football match in the UK. You can purchase beer before the
game, you can purchase beer at half time, you can't purchase it
during the game. And if you do have a beer you

(36:02):
are not allowed to leave the concourse.
So say you bought a beer just for kick off, you can't actually
enter the proper part of the theseating during the while you
have a beer and they're going totrial having beer WSL games as a
way to drive attendance. And then there's also the side
note that we talked about the Club World Cup, for example,

(36:22):
where when you don't have peoplein the stands, it just makes
for, you know, not as good viewing experience.
Remember what it was like watching empty stadiums during
COVID? You know, they're hoping there's
the knock on effect. If there's more people in
stands, it makes for a better product.
But you know, as American, I've always found it a bit awkward,
but I can understand if there's a history and people can't
control themselves is what it is.
But it's just an interesting little tidbit of something else

(36:46):
that's going to be taking place the next season.
Oh gosh, I remember the first time I came to a match and I
found that out moving to the UK 1516 years ago about you can't
take a bit to sit down in the stands.
Like what, what the problem then?
Then it's obviously to do with alegacy of hooliganism and and
other stuff going on, but it blew, blew me away.
I remember being in a corporate box actually, and you can't take

(37:10):
it out from the corporate box. Obviously at one of these.
It was a Premier League game andyou had to have the curtains
drawn yeah as well. So no one could see you even
drinking in the boxes because they would create an animosity
towards those in the boxes if they were able to drink and
watch the game from their from their from their little cubby
hole in the in the in the stadium.

(37:31):
I I thought that is, it's a crazy situation if that, that's
where it's got to. And so then to see this and the
WSL take a different approach isreally interesting.
Also because of the thing I, I point said before about them
being focused on quite on like targeting families and younger
audiences, because I don't thinkthat alcohol's really targeted
that group in the same way that I would say and speculate that

(37:55):
fandom in in football, particularly traditional fans
that you would if you asked an AI tool what paint me a
traditional, what a traditional football fan looks.
Like, we're going to do that. Maybe that'll be the the
thumbnail for this week's youth episode.
Let's do that, let's do that. But they would paint a very
different picture, so and they would be much more interested in

(38:16):
buying alcohol if they could. I think the problem is when with
any of these instances, if they do it, you get instant push back
for the Premier League saying hey, we want to have this
reinstated. I think in Australia they often
serve mid strength and low strength beer, but they still
served it. And I think, you know, if you're
serving beer at 2% alcohol, it'sa bit different to serving it at

(38:38):
6%, which is over here. Caught me out a couple of times
at the pub. But anyway, I mean, I wonder if
it's going to make any difference at all to attendance
significant enough for revenue. At least they can start doing
porridge rights deals of significance at stadiums if they
start opening up those floodgates.
So there will be a new revenue driver for clubs if they can

(38:59):
make this come to life. But is the Premier League ready
to make that move? I think if they unlock the 3:00
PM blackout maybe they might have to.
Yeah, yeah. Like I said, it's just, it's an
interesting tidbit. I think to your point, the
people going to those games is not that they won't have a beer,
but they probably aren't drinking beer is the way.
So I so for people that don't, I'm a West Ham fan.

(39:23):
I go to about 8810 games a year.One of my good friends is a
season ticket holder and he is, he's right down there at the
Hooligans. We sit right next to the away
fans. Yeah, I they drink.
It's not just beer, but yeah, I imagine they're not the crowd.
They're necessarily one of the WSL games.
Well, the other tidbit, and I haven't been to any, I haven't

(39:43):
been to any games, any football matches in Europe actually, come
to think of it. So that must be a goal of mine.
Our next goal is to go to a, a game, at least in Sweden to see
what the the atmosphere is like.But one of the things I think
catches a lot of people that particularly from Australia,
from the from the US, is people arrive as the game is starting
to the venue. They come literally on the clock
because they want to be at the pub basically for the very last

(40:06):
minute. To drink, you know, drink their
pints or whatever, most likely. And that pub culture that exists
before a game, they go to the game and then at coffee at the
start of the second-half, there's no one, there's a lot of
people missing because they're finishing their beers or still
lined up in the queue to get their beer.
So I think it's just an interesting tidbit for those
that aren't used to those sorts of cultures that if they're if

(40:29):
they like a drink at a football match or a sporting match, that
it's way more complicated. And you think now rugby,
different ball game, but it is just, it is just football in the
UK that has these rules. I've no idea if it exists in
other other countries across Europe.
Yeah, I don't think it does. I think you can drink in
European countries. Maybe I'm I'm wrong, someone
will correct me if I'm wrong. But one sports league, Nick or

(40:50):
one Football League, I know you can drink and is the MLS because
I have been to a couple matches there, you know, since the FC
and I know you can drink while you're there.
And we got some numbers on viewership of the NFLNLS season
pass on Apple TVI know that is something we we've talked about
because a, that was kind of, I mean, not a massive deal for
Apple, but it was them dipping their toe to an extent that they

(41:12):
haven't done before. And Don Garber from the MLS kind
of gave us a little bit of a peek saying, you know, they're
averaging about 120,000 unique viewers per match, which they've
said is marking a 50% increase compared to the previous season.
So Nick, we, we've sort of askedthe question as to, you know,
how much viewership was whether or not it was justifying Apple's

(41:34):
investment, because I believe there were some clauses in there
that Apple could break from it early if they wanted to.
And just. Sort of how the product.
Was going overall and we had concerns whether it's just a
messy effect we'll continue longterm.
We were very interested in this deal because of Apple all the
sudden decided to, you know, pull the plug and go all in.
You know, that'd be very exciting for people.

(41:56):
But this seems like the first time we've maybe gotten some
hard fast numbers as opposed to just we're happy with where
we're at kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely.
I I took, I took a while to process these numbers. 120,000
on average is a really good number, I think.
For what? For what they've achieved.

(42:17):
For what? How gated the axis was.
But then I looked at it a littlebit further and here's where my
scepticism comes out about how really good those numbers are
now firstly, they've also sharednumbers before that.
I think it was a Miami game and into Miami game where they had
north of a million viewers watching that particular game.
They don't have a million subscribers.
I can tell you that there's no way they have a north of

(42:38):
1,000,000 subscribers. And then if you look at the
specificity of how people could watch on Apple TV for MLS, it
isn't just through the MLS season pass.
We know that they've done some deals with different linear
broadcasters across the world and with regional markets and
with FOX 1 football. Well, we have football, but
also, but particularly 1 football's actually a highlights

(42:59):
deal, I think. But the numbers that Don Garber
did share were explicitly about Apple TV and that's why they've
felt like the best number we could possibly like feed off of
today. But it's worth noting that
Sunday night soccer matches, so the prime time games every
Sunday evening, they are available free to all Apple TV

(43:19):
plus subscribers, not ML season pass plus pass not not just to
MLL. I can't speak not just to MLS
season pass holders, which was the concern.
They also have certain games, pre season matches, League Cup
and also a handful of early season matches and pre season

(43:42):
matches available for free on Apple TV at the start of the
season in the hope they're able to attract audiences to
subscribe to the platform. So when you start digesting
that, OK, firstly there's going to be some games that really
skew audiences and skew numbers and then they've actually got
access for free to people to access.

(44:05):
That's not a bad number. But then it just, it doesn't
paint the, it's not necessarily as good as it sounds because
actually the not all those people are subscribing to the
MLS season pass. A lot of that's probably coming
through. There's probably good chunks of
audiences there that is coming for free for Apple TV and that
might be enough for Apple TV. Like for Apple's point of view
that they're getting consumptionon their platform, time is

(44:27):
money, engagement drives down churn issues, increases
retention, and that is a win. But just I think it's important
for the marketplace to understand that those numbers,
when they see them, aren't just within the season pass offering
that Apple TV are offering to people who want to subscribe to
the platform. So yeah, I'm tempering my

(44:50):
excitement. They did say also the, the,
that, that, that, that 50, it's a 50% increase year on year,
which is pretty significant growth, I think for every way
you look at it. However, then if you factor in
the Southern night games, maybe they had a few more of the the
big marquee matchups on that time slot.
All of a sudden actually, is it as big as it sounds or is it

(45:11):
just because they've put better games on?
So it's, it's still cloudy. Dylan Garber's even come out and
said that we need to all come upwith a unified measure of
performance on streaming becauseat the moment everyone's sending
out tidbits of information that tells a story they want, and
it's not just a universal measure of success.

(45:32):
But who's going to make the first move there?
I don't think. It's definitely not going to be
Apple, that is for sure. Yeah, no, I mean shocking people
using data numbers to to to validate their points, Nick,
I've never done that in a sportsdebate or argument about why
LeBron is better than MJ or anything vice versa.
Yeah, I mean, then unless seasonpass, I do like some of the

(45:53):
things they've done with it, Nick, in terms of like they do
have the the the roundup show. It's not quite the same as as
red zones. There's not many goals going on
the same time, but I think it's nice.
And then the other thing that I thought was really interesting
when we look back at is when Apple took over was they now
have a set schedule. Because I don't know if you
remember what they said before the Apple deal, they had
something like 38 different unique kick off times where is

(46:16):
now like it's like we only kick off at 7:00 PM during the week.
We only kick off at this time. They're like, I think they've
done some things. I do think, you know, the messy
effect is real. I'll be curious to see because
he can't have more than about a year left what ends up happening
from there. So I still think there's some to
be seen what happens long term with that and whether or not

(46:36):
there's a bump with the World Cup in 2026.
I that might be hopeful thinking, but it'll be
interesting to see what ends up happening there.
Yeah, completely. I, I, I'm, I'm interested to see
whether this continued investment into stars keeps
keeps happening or not. I think that's going to be an
interesting part of the of the proposition.

(46:58):
I know that you know, there's Tottenham's captain Son is
reportedly moving to the MLS as well.
Is it that's? Official now it's LAFC.
LAFCI mean that that's that's a that's a very a really good get.
Although he ain't young, it's not like he's getting him in his
super prime, but he's still a world class, world class player,
clearly. So just if they are able to I

(47:20):
guess continue to get a little bit younger and get more players
in their prime or is it going tobe still that?
They're going to get players that are looking for something
change that have cashed in and will have a different
experience. The World Cup is coming.
They're hoping that's going to be a big needle mover for
audiences. How the MLS maximises that
opportunity, I'm not sure how that that other than just

(47:42):
inertia around soccer as a competition or as a as a sport.
That might be one part of it, but I feel like they need
something else. And who, who, you know, we all
know Messi's not going to be playing there forever.
Yeah, well, not to get to. None of the guys on the US men's
national team currently play in the MLS, so you can't even.
Really. Let's go this way.
If there are, it's it's the vastminority.

(48:04):
So like, you can't even sell it as hey, World Cup's coming up,
watch these guys in the follow up or hey, look at these guys
and how they've done since. So yeah, we'll we'll see how it
goes, Nick. But I just want to say
everybody, thank you once again for tuning in for this episode
of Stream TIME Sports. And we'll catch you on the next
one. Thanks everyone.