The FIFA Club World Cup – A $1 billion gamble for DAZN

Is DAZN betting big on a tournament without guaranteed returns? In this episode of StreamTime Sports, co-hosts Nick Meacham and Chris Stone break down the high-stakes investment in FIFA’s Club World Cup and whether it can deliver on its $1 billion price tag. From the complexities of the broadcast deals to sluggish audience numbers, they explore whether this bold play is a long-term growth opportunity or a cautionary tale in the making.

Key points: 

• What would it take to turn the FIFA Club World Cup into a profitable venture?
• What do empty stadiums and underwhelming TV ratings mean for the tournament’s future?
• Is DAZN’s product experience influencing viewership and retention? 
• What role is Saudi investment playing in shaping the future of DAZN and FIFA?
• Will the knockout stages and marquee matchups make up for the early group stage apathy?

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the next episode of Stream
Time Sports. My name is Chris Stone, the
community lead, joined as alwaysby our CEO, Nick Meacham.
Now, Nick, when this podcast comes out, it might be a little
outdated, but I want to start bysharing a brief story and then
issuing an apology, if you will allow me to do so.
The floor is yours, Chris. The floor is yours.
So I, I think I've mentioned on the pod, or at least I've

(00:30):
mentioned it to you. I'm trying to get back into golf
this year. So spent some time on Google,
was looking at golf lessons, youknow, may have looked up.
Do I want to buy not a whole setof new clubs because you know,
I'm not good enough to do that, but maybe I want to buy a club
for myself. And of course, the Internet does
its thing. Every time I'm on Instagram,
every time I'm on TikTok, I'm just getting served golf ad
after golf ad. Well, I get on YouTube and of

(00:52):
course it starts serving me golfvideos.
And we'd previously talked about, you know, Bryson Dacian
bow and you know, his YouTube channel, some of the things he's
doing and it just popped up. I didn't have anything going on,
You know, as Bryson tries toughest course in America.
I was like, all right, fine, I'll click on it.
And it was him practising at Oakmont before the US Open, him
having a practise round. So I watched the full 40 minute

(01:13):
video, then I watched a couple more videos and then, you know,
I've said on the podcast for I'mnot into individual sports.
I don't watch golf, I don't watch Formula One, I don't watch
tennis. Well, that weekend after
watching that YouTube video thatwas served to me because I'd
googled golf clubs, I actually went and watched some of the US
Open. And this is where the the
apology comes into place. As a Bengals fan, I curse

(01:36):
everyone that I root for. So I will apologise to Bryson
for missing the cut as my fault.But I thought it was a great
anecdotal story. You know, we talk about, you
know, the funnel, the pipeline, How do you get people through?
And it happened. It happened to me, Nick, just
the way that, you know, the PGA or whoever, you know, would have
drawn it up, interest in playinggolf ends up watching the US
Open. And there we go, Nick.

(01:56):
I just I thought it was a very worthwhile story to share.
You're the prototype fan fan journey right there.
I mean, there's a couple of interesting things, right?
Like I think the the the effect that it's had on Bryson's,
particularly Bryson Dechambeau'sfan following because for a
while when before he started doing this content, he was
actually seen as a bit of a bad guy, a bit arrogant, etcetera.

(02:19):
And now by just taking back the,well, sort of taking back the,
what do you call it, the facade of the curtains and sort of
opening is, yeah, the opening yourself up, you then become a
bit more personable, a bit more real.
Also those those videos are heavily edited and produced so
but nevertheless, he comes across well in them.
They're really engaging, well created content.

(02:39):
I've watched more of that stuff than I have of probably a live
golfing event XA for maybe the Masters.
This actually, no, I didn't get to watch the Masters because I
couldn't get on the year before.So I think that sort of thing's
so essential to driving fandom in the game of golf actually.
And I just went to the range of the first time over the weekend
and there were more young peopleplaying there than anything

(03:02):
else. And I bet you they probably
follow a similarish journey of like watching younger players,
well produced clips and longer form content.
That is just it's engaging the whole way through, which is golf
can go a little bit up and down in terms of terms of that
narrative. So I'm not surprised that it had
that sort of impact. I think it seems to be having

(03:22):
that's sort of impact right across the world, but fun, fun.
I think it's a fact. I'm going to say it's a fact
that I do believe that one of the things that's been
celebrated by people around the live golf movement is the fact
that that Bryce and Ichampo has only really been able to do this
channel since he moved to live golf.
Because I do think there's some,there's some conflict with what

(03:45):
he can and can't record as a PGATour player, but he has more
freedom and licence to do what he likes from the live golf
perspective. So I can't remember the
specifics. I read this quite a long time
ago. I didn't know you were going to
bring it up here, but otherwise I would have double checked it.
But yeah, they basically he has more licence to create more
content and that's what enabled this initiative.

(04:05):
And I think as a result, I thinkit's a significant sort of a
move or impact to the game of golf's fandom as any single
thing that's happened in the industry is just they they
doubled down or really went hardat it.
And he's now at the forefront ofone of the most followed golfers
in the world, if not the the most followed current set of

(04:29):
golfers, just because of this investment in creating great
content. Well, it's interesting because I
spoke to some of my friends about it and you know, whether
it's because they're English andthey just don't like American
golfers or whatnot, they're like, yeah, his YouTube channel
is really annoying because I actually don't like watching him
live. But they are like, we do
struggle with how well he actually does come across on his
YouTube channel. So, and you know, just a
shamelessly plug. Last week's pod was around the

(04:51):
athlete economy, creator economyand talking about where do we
want to see sports in the next three to five years.
And, you know, World Badminton is not a organisation the size
or have a participation level tograssroots level.
That might actually be wrong. Actually, badminton might be
really popular grassroots of I don't know.
But you know, they're leaning into their athletes to produce
content. You know, they're saying, you
know, some of their best produced content is behind the

(05:12):
scenes. Get ready with me.
It's actually not the live content.
And I can totally see where stuff like Bryson is opening up
a new level because one of the things we talked about in that
pod was you have your hardcores that will TuneIn to watch live.
You have the hardcores that willTuneIn to watch highlights.
What are you doing for everybodyelse?
You know, if you're thinking golf terms Tuesday through
Wednesday when they're not playing the rounds, you know not

(05:33):
everybody is going to want to follow that hardcore golf
content. Absolutely no one's going to
follow that stuff. They don't.
They don't actually need to become a massive fan of the
sport. I think there's used to be a
very tight, almost like playbookthat you had to follow to be a
fan of the sport. And I think just now, without
having access to content like this is you just don't need to

(05:53):
follow that prototype and sit there for hours and hours and
watch Conta, which just doesn't fit into most people's lives in
this day and age. I love, for context, he's up to
over 2 million subscribers and his channel's probably, what, a
little over a year year old now,Plus all the content he's
creating on through all of his social media channels as well on
top of that. And there's a lot of great stuff
going on there. And yeah, I think that playbook

(06:16):
is, is something that everyone is going to be admiring, going
to be jealous of. And I'd be shocked within the
next year or two. You don't see live golf perhaps
what subject to where he ends upbeing because he's contracts
going to be up for renewal and he's he's actively said he knows
what he's worth. So we'll see what that means as
long as there's this disharmony between the PGA and live golf,

(06:38):
because at one stage they're supposed to be coming together
and at the same time they're still competing against each
other for competition airtime and, and some of the players.
But let's say hypothetically they stay with Liv, I'd expect
in the next year or two to get some of his matches distributed
or streamed live through his channel.

(06:58):
Like how could you not take thatopportunity to reach his
audience with a live stream being produced by Liv Golf just
going through directly to his audience?
We've had precedent of this a little bit.
If you think about firstly, theyhave, we're streaming on quite
heavily on YouTube at the start.But also remember we covered I
think briefly that Cristiano Ronaldo actually even streamed

(07:18):
live matches through his YouTubechannel.
But that was for, I think it waswas it for paddle?
Maybe. Or there was a paddle or
pickleball paddle. I think it was paddle, I can't
remember. There's one of one of those
other racket sports that he's got a connection with also
because it happened to be connected with a Saudi Arabian
event, which obviously he is well connected with through his

(07:41):
allegiance to the team there in the league since he joined a
couple of years ago now. So I'd expect that really it'd
be crazy if they didn't try and take that approach is to
leverage the fact he's got this in crazy channel Live Golf.
Also did that deal with Rick Shields, who's one of the most
followed golf creators, content creators online, which came
under a lot of scrutiny because of, you know, the, the whole

(08:02):
notion of selling out to the Saudis and so forth came
through. But their goal is to really live
and be front and centre in this YouTube world that we live in
today. And clearly they're they're a
step ahead. Well, we're going to segue from
one PIF funded sport in live golf and move to another very
highly linked PIF funded. It's it's not officially funded,

(08:26):
but there are alleged sort of ties, connections between how
some of the broadcast steals work themselves out.
And we're going to speak specifically about the FIFA Club
World Cup. And one of the things you know,
for us, Nick, we've been covering this Club World Cup, it
seems like over a year now when we were kind of talking about

(08:46):
what the original broadcast dealwas, were the valuations that
FIFA for were holding for what they wanted to sell the
broadcast rights really accuratefor really a new event.
Then we started talking about the zone being involved and
that's sort of where my my previous little attempted Segway
there came in because it also kind of timed up quite
conveniently with receiving the funding that they had with the

(09:09):
joint and venture or whatever they were going to call that
backing through PIF zone, that partnership and whether that
those two are connected. Then we went on, we've covered
some of the sub licencing where we're talking about Channel 5 in
the UK or you know, their other partners, you know, how are they
going to make back this billion dollars?
It seems like we've covered the Club World Cup quite a bit up to

(09:29):
this stage and now as a time of recording this, we're about 10
days into the Club World Cup. We're getting some initial, you
know, feedback results in terms of, you know, TV reporting,
things like that. But you know, Nick, just first
thoughts, you know, just before we maybe go into some of the
deeper stuff, how have you foundthe 1st 10 days or what sorts of

(09:50):
things are you hearing, seen reading, just kind of how it's
initially kicked itself off. Well, OK, before we I think we
should do some scene setting just to reset that scene a
little bit of how things are playing out, but we can come
back to that. I'll take my initial to your
question. My initial reaction is I want, I
want to make an effort of, of tuning in to see what the Zone

(10:13):
was producing because this is the biggest event they've ever
produced by some fashion. It's also a new sporting event.
There's lots of coverage around it and it's placed in the
ecosystem and we've covered thatin bits and pieces as well.
But everyone else under the sun has probably covered it.
So I'm trying to get my head around basically how well it's
produced. It hasn't got a long term place,

(10:34):
does it? Is it missing something?
Also just to see what the zone bring to the fore producing such
a such an event at scale, given they are basically leading the
distribution, the broadcast and everything attached with the
event and they've obviously madesuch a commitment to it as a
FIFA in partnering with them to get my head around what it is
now, I have to say my experiencewas interesting.

(10:54):
So I started back a couple of weeks ago actually where I
haven't access to the zone platform for ages.
So I all right. And actually since I've moved to
Sweden. So the first step was or logging
into the platform, right? That was, that was pretty
seamless to get onto the platform.
But I haven't got any subscriptions live or anything,
just the free user. But then I had to, I wanted to

(11:16):
update my details so I could getobviously the notifications and
obviously set it to my location because I had it my UK location
as the last one, which is very, very old since I've obviously
moved between now and then as well.
So I update, tried to update it and it wouldn't allow me to make
any of those changes. So it basically I got told that
I had to delete my account and come back again in 24 hours, I

(11:38):
think it was, or 48 hours and start again once I had deleted
my account officially and start from scratch and start a new
account. So I did that, basically created
an account account again from scratch straight away.
It's obviously, you know, there's obviously pushing me
into trying to buy a subscription and subscribe to
the platform and pay the fee from the the get go, which is

(11:58):
ambitious but understandable. Most platforms would probably
try to do the same, get up and running on the platform
relatively relatively well. And the first game I was trying
to watch, I think, I'm not sure it was the very first game, but
it was in your hometown of Cincinnati with the, I mean as
big a big a contrast in teams asyou can imagine, Bayern Munich

(12:19):
versus Auckland. I think it's, I don't even know
what they're called, Auckland City, Auckland City FC or
something. Basically they're a semi pro
team and they had to get like leave, leave from work to play.
And the game was and they had, you know, by me had a lot of
their top stars playing and the game was a, you know, it was 10,
I think it was 10 nil or 11 nil,10 nil.

(12:40):
The score line. There's a couple of interesting
things that I took from it. Well, one was trying to sign
into it. So got onto the platform and
also what was interesting on thethere wasn't any options on the
app to change into the local language.
So I would normally change my apps into Swedish.
They were all in English still. So I thought that was just an
interesting little nuance. The time in the app, this is

(13:00):
after I changed and signed up asas as in in Sweden as a Swede,
so to speak, was showing me UK start times, which got very
confusing. So I missed the start.
I know I missed the time. I was an hour early for the
start time because because of that fact and I we have an LGTV
smart TV here. I'm not sure how old the

(13:21):
operating system is, but there was actually no design app.
So I had to go a bit old school,get the laptop out, plug it in
and and stream it that way, which was a bit of a definitely
a bit of a clunky way to do it. Not an ideal user experience.
But to be fair, there is not that many apps available on the
on the LG app on the LG smart TV.
I've got probably there's a prime by play SVT, Netflix,

(13:44):
YouTube, Netflix, that's about about it.
So Netflix, the big ones are there, but it's probably one of
those ones that's in a very small operating system mix is
probably in the less than 1%, I'm guessing.
So I'm giving a lot of benefit of the doubts in some of these
situations. But it's just one of those
things that you know, Netflix isthere, they're much bigger
expected. You kind of just hope they'll be
there because then that brings down the barrier to entry for

(14:06):
me. What else then?
So got finally got on there. What was I think the most
interesting part for me was to see that and super proved bit of
business is that Auckland had Michelob Ultra as their shirt
sponsor. Now for those that have never
been to New Zealand or I'm from that part of the world and I

(14:28):
haven't researched this, but I'm95% sure that Michelob is not
sold actively as a as a major, major beer brand in in New
Zealand yet was a front shirt sponsor.
So I'd love to know whether Michelob Ultra got in touch with
Auckland or Auckland. We're going to go find a sponsor
for this basically to try and maximise the opportunity of all

(14:49):
this visibility, But it was super impressive just to say
that they had maximised that andit wasn't like I don't know what
you'd expect for like Auckland second hand cars on the front
show, which which was which was possibly the risk it would have
played if someone hadn't steppedup.
And the other final bit before we, sorry, I let you back in,
Chris, was just to see how they approached the game a little bit
differently where they'd had each individual being announced

(15:12):
1 by 1 into the stadia rather than just the whole team.
You know, the traditional walk out of a football team where
they normally hold a hand of a kid, walk out, go out there for
the national anthems and not that for national games.
And they're like, there wasn't any of that.
It was one by one they announcedevery single person, which I
mean would have been a massive, major highlight for those
Auckland players to think that they're stepping out in this

(15:34):
competition, think that they would have had this chance to do
it. But a few little tweaks to to
that experience that I'm not sure they really work.
Maybe if you've got everyone who's well known, but
nonetheless it added something different to the mix.
Yeah, So I had a slightly more simplified experience because
I'm like you, I do have a current live subscription for
NFL Game Pass. So I didn't necessarily have to

(15:57):
go through some of the hurdles you did.
And I'm guessing my LG TV just be must be newer because I do
have an LG Smart TV and I already have the Zone app on
there again for the NFL Game Pass situation.
So I tried watching it on my phone, tried watching it on my
TVI didn't have any issues in terms of that.
But like, I suppose as I'm a more active member, wouldn't do.
So yeah, I I didn't have any issues from that side.

(16:19):
I admittedly have not watched anything live by Channel 5.
I mean, I'd imagine given it's linear, free to air, I shouldn't
expect anything too crazy about that experience.
But I didn't have any of the challenges you did.
But I, I just have a series of weird sort of more anecdotal
things. And you know, one of the things
I I mentioned to you before thisis I am a user of the one
football app. I think, you know, we've spoken

(16:42):
with many people, 1 football, we've talked about 1 football on
many occasions. I think it is an excellent
football app just in terms of assomeone that uses so rare.
So just throw in some web three out there.
It is the best football app if you need scores from around the
world. What I find incredibly bizarre
is when I go to 1 football's homepage, there's no, no FIFA
Club World Cup. When I go to their match tab,

(17:06):
which which shows you their all the live matches for the day
doesn't show up there. If I go to the search bar and I
search FIFA Club World Cup, theyhave a dedicated page and then I
can get the games there. And I said I'm just one user May
I'm not aware of ever having clicked a preferences button
that would tell me to not show that because it's a it's a new

(17:27):
event. But I find it very bizarre that
when I go to the game day tab, it'll show me the Scottish Third
Division matches Before it showed I I couldn't find the
Club World Cup. I kept scrolling through live
matches today and that was just a bit bizarre to me.
That one football, you know, I think they would believe that
they're the number one football app in the world.

(17:48):
I imagine they've got to be, if not one, maybe 2.
The fact that I had to actively search to find the Club World
Cup on one football. I don't.
I want you said you want to givepeople the benefit of the doubt.
I want to say that maybe I've just clicked a preference at
some point, but I don't know when I would have done that.
That the fact that that's not like front and centre was a bit
bizarre. It's super bizarre and and it

(18:10):
does lead you to think about thewhy and it definitely not
because it's an afterthought, right?
There would be definitely an intentional decision, whether
the decision is made because of just prioritising the Scottish
division because there's more commercial returns for that or
the fact that one footballer made an intentional decision to

(18:31):
ignore it for political reasons.I mean I have no idea.
But it is absolutely a bizarre when you think of all the clubs
that are attached and 1 footballand their history is linked with
driving fander back at a club level as well as a league level
that they wouldn't be tapping into that opportunity.
Particularly also as they are very focused on growth in the US

(18:53):
market. That is even more bizarre for
me. I wonder if it's a location
thing. I wonder if if you were in the
base in the US or other markets you might have have access to
it. But I'll, I'll have a look today
and see if I can have access to it here.
Very, very, very strange. And I think this links come back
to this whole just question markI guess on what this competition

(19:15):
is and every the the different stakeholders perception of it I
guess. Yeah, I mean, definitely like if
someone's listening to the podcast wants to challenge, it's
like I'd be more than happy. But like, you know, if I've, you
know, you won't be able to see it.
But there's there's the home page at the bottom, there's a
little button that says games. If I go to games and I scroll
through, it starts with the CONCACAF Gold Cup.

(19:35):
It then goes on to some women's friendlies and then goes on to
the Euro U20 ones and it goes onto club friendlies, which is
showing me some Slovakian games.Then it goes to the Premier
Division which looks like an Irish Football League and then
goes to the Brazil B league, goes to the NWSL.
It goes to a bunch of leagues. I honestly don't even know where

(19:57):
in the world they're based. And there is nothing for the
Club World Cup. And I'm still scrolling 30
seconds onward. Oh Nope, finally I've got there.
So the Club World Cup is sittingunderneath at least. 20
different competitions and that can't be a preference thing.
I don't know, it's just weird. Someone can tell me why, but I
just, I find that very bizarre, how difficult it is to find

(20:19):
content on one football for the Club World Cup.
Yeah, that's, that is really strange.
I'm just looking now. So I've just jumped onto the 1
football up. I I've had it, used it for a
long time. So I've uninstalled it, going
back in now and the first question it always asks is
select your favourite team and it gives you the month the most
popular in the area which is a mix between Man United and Real

(20:40):
Madrids and Liverpools and then Malmo, FF and IFK.
Yet the body and the the local teams.
Let's just go in here and see ifI chose anything.
Am I going to say that I'm? Select your local team.
Select your local team Nick. Select the local Swedish.
Team about Australia. I didn't go Australia.
I'll go Australia, see if they. I'm just curious to see what

(21:02):
they oh, it wants me to go back.No, oh, it's going to make me
hard. I'm just going to skip for now
and see what comes up for me. So top stories are Australia is
basically the top news stories. But obviously.
You see the new new there's the top news has articles like The

(21:23):
Debrief as European giants put on a show at the Club World Cup.
So there's news articles relatedto it, but anyway, I'll have a
little dig on there and see if Ican find anything there.
But not it's not, it's not standing out at the top of the
page. So whether that's a tip for for
the one football to look at further or whether that's
intentional, we'll have to have to wait and see on that one.

(21:45):
Yeah. Well, let let's look a little
bit more directly into some of the the stuff that we've seen to
date. Now, there are certain data
points that, you know, probably aren't going to be shared or,
you know, they're saying Nielsenhaven't come out yet.
But I was just, you know, looking at the audience is a
little concerning from a game perspective.
I think it was the the Chelsea LAFC game.

(22:08):
You know, they're playing in theAtlanta Mercedes, Mercedes-Benz
Dome where the Atlanta Falcons play, also where Atlanta's
United, I believe they are the MLS team are playing.
It's just shy of 80,000 capacity.
And I think average capacity forthe MLS team is around 45,000.
I think they said there's about 23,000.
And I don't even know if that was just tickets sold versus

(22:30):
actual bums and seats. I know there have been some
really good games on the Rose Bowl where you know, PSG, Milan,
I think we're close to 80,000 and they've had their first
supposed sell out of Miami. I think it was Boca versus
Bayern. And there's been a couple games,
but there's also been a lot of games where like it's been
really poorly attended from a tennis perspective.

(22:50):
And I know there's some political stuff in America that
maybe people just aren't travelling this year.
And you know, maybe that's a easy get out of gaol free car.
But even some of the the TV numbers, I had a bit of a a look
for what I could get. And the estimated peak audience
of the Chelsea LAFC game, which I suppose is a good one to pick
because it is one of the UK based teams here, they said had

(23:11):
a peak audience of 1.6 million is where they're at.
But they said average is around 1,000,000.
So I looked up the previous World Cup.
What were the average TV rates for group matches that did not
include England and the average was between 2:00 and 6:00
million. The one example he gave me was
Argentina and Saudi Arabia around 4 million.
Now that's the messy effect, butin theory a non England game was

(23:35):
having double the audience, possibly more than that.
So, you know, I don't want to put public attendance to how
successful it's going to be on TV because there's a whole
different reasons. You know, I talked about the
political circumstances in America that maybe people just
aren't travelling or the fact that games are on a like 1:00 PM
in the middle of the work day might not have people there.

(23:55):
Or we've seen news stories aboutthe ticket prices having to
continually be slashed, that some people just don't want to
attend for the cost it is. But you know, some of the
initial statistics I don't thinkare, you know we were promised
sold out seats and just not surethat's necessarily matched up
and a little bit of causation correlation, you know where that

(24:16):
all lines up. Yeah, well, I don't think if we,
we took a step back, right And we went back to the days of when
we heard this announced and heard the the rhetoric, the the
hyperbole of what this was goingto be this event from Infantino
and and FIFA and the like. It was never going to reach that
scale and impact. The, it's always, ever since day
one, being met with scepticism right by fans, by all

(24:37):
stakeholders in the entire industry.
And when you have an event that is not universally agreed to be
the event that it's supposed to be, it's never going to reach
80,000 in, in a stadium for a group match, no matter, no
matter who's playing in, in thatenvironment, particularly for
games that are not relevant to the local community.

(24:58):
It's never happened. And then the prices that they
were selling tickets were extortionate up until I think
recently that they've cut, they've slashed prices and put
on a big marketing campaign worth 10s of millions to try and
fill the last sort of sets of seats.
But I mean, I'm not in the room,right?
But to think that playing that game at an 80,000 person stadium
is the right port of call. Like what most sports leagues

(25:21):
know and understand, if you understand your supply and
demand, the basics of supply anddemand is particularly in a
sporting environment, find a a venue that's more likely to be
sold out than likely to be emptyand then go with that,
particularly for year 1. You know, it's nice to be
ambitious, but don't be naive. And the reality is that's been

(25:41):
the case right through this entire journey.
Whether that is just Infantino who believes this is the the
grand, you know, the, the greater, the great new idea
that's going to transform the sport for to for the concept to
be successful and to expect clubfans having to require
international travel to come to this event when there's
scepticism and uncertainty from them.

(26:02):
Some might buy into it, right, And some might massively love
the idea, but there's enough people that aren't to drive.
That's going to have a massive impact on people travelling in
the sports tourism component of running events like this.
So look, we I think everyone in the industry who follows it,
whether it's been following the broadcast, lack of interest in
those rights at the time to the lack of ticket, this was

(26:22):
inevitable that this would happen.
The numbers that you shared, I think, you know, you can look at
those in different ways. I wouldn't, I don't think using
the England measure is probably the most fair because, you know,
let's say it's Chelsea. Well, there's a lot of fans who
will not watch a Chelsea game actively it it doesn't bring the
nation together in the same way.So if they're able to generate a
million plus it, I always think about it's more about the

(26:45):
measure what else they would have had on live on their
channels and what's the relativeincrease as a result of having
that match available. That's more of AI think a
measure of success. So I wouldn't I wouldn't measure
measure too much against the theWorld Cup, although it's it is a
measuring stick you can use for comparison.
Ultimately, I don't know what success is going to look like
here, like we're at the early stages.

(27:06):
Like how many games are we talking about that are happening
in this event? I mean, do you have the number
in front of you or I've got it here, remember?
Is it something around like 50 something games will be played
in total between club and knock or sorry group and knockout
stages? Yeah.
So 32 teams from six continents were playing 63 games over 30
days, 63 games over 30 days. So ultimately what what are all

(27:30):
really matter. What we're going to remember is
what it looks like towards the end rather than the the earlier
stages because it's building up right.
There's momentum to be had. We're at the early to the early
stages. FIFA still needs to sell out
those finals and the final beingbeing a big success with the
right teams if there any chance for this to be sustainable as a
long term viable proposition. And they need it for the ratings

(27:51):
they need. Everyone needs it to be
successful from that point of view.
Like you've got to reflect like when this deal was announced,
part of it was billion dollar prize money that was up for
grabs for the teams to be involved.
I don't know the specifics of that, but some clubs are paid up
to nearly $40 million just to attend and participate in this
tournament. But they need that price money
to be back. And that's how basically the

(28:12):
legacy of this billion dollar deal was needed from the zone or
for another broadcast partner tobasically cover the cost of that
this commitment that FIFA had made to putting enough money on
the table to make it worthwhile for these clubs.
Basically for these clubs to forgo what they would normally
do, which is do exhibition matches across the world in
their offseason, driving fandom in other markets.

(28:33):
Big, big, massive price to paycheck for for that
capability. But you think about the amount
of games that some of the players are playing.
I think I saw 11 number that waslike 70 or 80 games that a a
player might be playing in a year with the Club World Cup if
they follow it through to the finals plus all the other
friendlies and everything, that's one every two games a
week. So three 2/3 of the year.

(28:54):
I mean, how insane is that sort of number?
If you think about all the othercompetitions that are available,
no wonder they need big squads. Otherwise there's no chance of
basically surviving some of the things that they're they're
doing. So look, the event, the event's
been met with scepticism the whole way through.
It's going to be seen with scepticism until we get through
to the finals and then we can really reflect, OK.

(29:14):
Has it come to a point at the end where there is mass
interest, mass following to the levels that FIFA wanted for it
to be deemed a success and to give it a future.
At the moment it is hard to see how that is that is delivered.
There's just such a lack of lackof coverage and interest in it.
But if the right teams there when it comes to crunch time,
then I still think they can theycan possibly get to that port of

(29:37):
call. Obviously, the other thing we
haven't talked about about is the financial side and how well
that plays out. But I think from a pure
visibility perspective, for it to have any chance of being met
with support for the next round,they have to have the right
teams the end. Otherwise it's it's just going
to be a a huge disaster. Well, I mean, just stand early.
I was, so I was. I was golfing yesterday.

(29:58):
I was in a party of four and I asked.
Keep keep rubbing in about the fact you've been golfing.
Yeah, I haven't played golf for a long time now.
I'm a little bit jealous. Well.
Anyways, you're on the back 9. I said, guys, I need to do some
research for the podcast that I'm doing tomorrow.
I was like, you know, we're you know, nearly through the group
stages. I was like, how much of the Club
World Cup have you guys watched?And all of a sudden haven't

(30:19):
watched a single second of it. I was like, OK, and it
elaborate. And some of them like, well, I
don't have it in his own account.
I don't want to downloaded, I don't want to pay for it.
And I was like, we don't have topay for it.
It's free. They're like, yeah, just too
much for a hassle. I was like, well, you can watch
it for free on Channel 5. And they're like, I couldn't
tell you the last time I watchedsomething on Channel 5.
And again, my friends are not just average people.
They are people that will watch the NFL all do it the the fall

(30:43):
and the early parts of the new year.
They are Arsenal fans, so explains why they're not
watching Chelsea or Man City. But they'll watch the Formula
One, they will watch the boxing,they will watch the golf.
They will watch These are not just average sports fans.
And then, you know, I asked my Americans the same question.
Well, actually I made a comment the same Bayern Munich game that
you referenced. I was watching to see how TQL,

(31:04):
the beautiful stadium Cincinnatiwas looking.
I texted my friends there's a lot of empty seats in
Cincinnati. They were so unaware.
They're like, yeah, the Reds aregarbage.
No one wants to go watch that without knowing that the Reds
are actually playing in Detroit.Like the game was being hosted
in the city and like they were completely unaware.
And you know, I was watching something on The Athletic and I
think the Athletic or one of thebetter sports journalism groups

(31:24):
out there, They have a Man City reporter is out in Philadelphia
for the first game, said he wentto the bar.
He had to ask somebody to put the game, the club or the group
stage games on. Everyone's been to America, been
to a sports bar. There's usually no shortage of
what you can find. So the fact that he was like, it
was a non Man City game, so it wasn't being hosted in
Philadelphia where they were staying, but he had to request,

(31:47):
did it be put on? And there's only like 200
screens at any average sports bar in America.
And just like I said, anecdotal.We're talking about nine people
out of the 8 billion people on this earth.
But like, these are all people that are, as far as I'm aware,
are hardcore sports fans. And like, they're not even
pretending to engage with it. If you haven't been, if you've
been to a sports bar in the US, you will understand that it's a

(32:09):
different experience to anywhereelse in the world.
There is almost more screens than people in the bar.
There have so many screens showing so many different sports
events. I just feel like they've just
treated that this this Club World Cup like they would treat
the FIFA World Cup to some extent.
Like you know what I mean by like expecting to stand would be
organic and like manifest itself.
And then and then I know they used what they created his name.

(32:30):
I show speed to get get on his stream and Fantino pops up with
the the trophy and the ball and those sort of things.
So like try and lean into that world.
But I just, it felt so, you know, inauthentic for him, but
also, but like inventing her popping up on it on that sort of
channel that I think they just, they've really forgotten on.

(32:50):
Just not taking into account howmuch work still needs to be done
in our market. That's it's not a regular event
to actually get people to reallysupport it at this scale.
It's almost like it's, it's beendone in a cut price fashion
basically to like it's just going to work organically, it'll
sort itself out. And the reality is it, it is not
the case. So look, I, I think it's, it's

(33:13):
no surprising we're here at thisstage.
I said, I'm saying, I said we'restill reserving judgement to see
if they can pull it out at the end of they get the coverage and
exposure. Obviously that we haven't even
talked much about the again, the, the zone specifically and
their approach that they've talked about before we jump into
some of that. There's some other things I
wanted to share in terms of my experience, which I think are
just interesting things to thinkabout or review when people that

(33:36):
we know listen to our podcast work in the space and might find
it interesting. There's a couple of things all
of us fly through is firstly that they have this, they had a
fan zone chat feature, which I, you know, we've seen a bunch of
some different partners that we are partners or suppliers who
provide these sorts of engagement tools.
They they definitely lent into they had a fan zone in the app,

(33:59):
which is on desktop and on mobile.
Within that, basically when you logged on and accessed, you got
the zone coins. I got paid for the zone coins.
I have no idea what I get what Ican do with those.
They didn't tell me, but I've got thousands of coins now after
watching a couple of games. It very much mimicked a live
chat, pretty much like a live chat from Twitch or YouTube

(34:19):
where loads of people just riding crap basically just
riding stuff all the time and people like people using GIFs.
You can use Gify in there. So basically there was there was
an absolute GIF fest in there. So that's that's that's
obviously appeals to a certain audience that had polls in there
and just loads of emojis flying around.
So you could upvote and downvotestuff that was going on through

(34:40):
the match. And it was as well as, yeah,
polls on like who's the GOAT andwhich team do you are cheering
for, etcetera. What was actually interesting, I
forgot to say it before, was when I was signing up to the
platform. So the experience of sign up was
I downloaded the app and then ittakes you basically to a just a
web page to complete your details.

(35:03):
I'm fine. OK, so not too crazy.
And then it forced me or that forced me is not the right way.
It told me to download the app, but it did it through the web
browser. So we created it, downloaded
basically maybe download 2 versions of the design app,
which was really where one was the Google Play app and the
other one was like a web-based app version on the platform.

(35:27):
So I think that we had two of the two apps on the same
platform, which made no sense. I didn't understand why it was
pushing me to do that. And then when I came back on the
platform the next time around, Ifound it difficult to actually
find the games for free. I don't know whether I clicked
the wrong thing, but it was basically trying to force me
into the HDR to the high definition versions.
And I would have to pay for pay for that access, which I think

(35:48):
was equivalent around £7 a monthor €8.00 a month or something
like that as part of the wider design subscription.
So I didn't actually find that free one that time around and I
left, then came back and then found it the next time.
So I don't know if that was a huge error or not, but it was
very, very annoying at that time.
And one of the other things I think always find it interesting
and frightening is when you go on to most media website apps.

(36:13):
I remember noticing this actually with FIFA plus when
they launched, But also I've seen a bunch of other places
anywhere. In fact, I just saw it with one
football now. But is how many vendors get
access to your data when they from the advertising
programmatic world have a guess how many, how many people, how
many companies are getting sent your data by logging onto one of

(36:34):
these apps? We'll we'll use the design app
in this instance. Do you know the answer?
Yeah, I do because I I wrote it down.
Let's go with 35. 900 and seven 907 vendors get sent your
detail. Now that is to fuel and power.
I believe this is to fuel and power the programmatic world,

(36:56):
right? So the ads I got served in the
broadcast were Swedish, Swedish language selling the MG cars,
which is you know, higher high and not a high end car, but like
a decent set of ads. It wasn't Jim's Jim's bakery
around the corner. It was it was actually a
legitimate car ads. So just emphasising they are

(37:16):
trying to drive revenue through that programmatic sphere.
So the ad was in Swedish, but again, the platform everything
else wasn't and there was no other options for for broadcast
commentary, which I found a bit surprising.
I found it would have been nice,particularly in Europe for them
to have multiple options. Whether that be not just in
Swedish, but even have the options to, I don't know, try
other languages and at least have that capability of, of, of

(37:38):
alternative options, particularly when there's so
many suppliers out there. Like one of the stream time
members Spork does is a great provides a great service on
remote and remote commentary in different languages that they
you don't have that just pluggedinto something like this is a
major event. So having it all available
centrally within the platform. So there's a couple of little
things I I'd say like overall mysummary of my experience access

(38:01):
accessing it is it worked a bit funky, a bit like clunky through
the journey that I always have found that, particularly in this
smart TV era, that a lot of the major broadcasters have had
weird experiences either going to your phone, scanning QR
codes, doing all sorts of thingsrather than all being so native

(38:22):
as you want and then would expect.
But with all these there was a lot of little things I just
didn't quite, They weren't crisp, they weren't polished.
And I think sometimes it's it's interesting to reflect on the
zones position. You know, they're a multi
billion dollar turnover or valued organisation, but they
are actually relatively small incomparison to a lot of that are

(38:42):
the major networks of broadcasters out there.
So I was trying to judge for myself, how do I judge this
experience? Do I judge it against the big
guys, which is probably what they are judged again mainly, or
should I be looking at the bottom in because they sit sort
of it in this middle tier, whichthey aren't, which makes it
difficult to judge like how polished their experience should

(39:03):
be, but it was definitely rough around the edges.
I have to say my overall experience, although I did get
on there because I wanted to test it, but otherwise I might
have. There were several points I
might not have followed through and they might have lost me
along the way. And you know, for what it's
worth you talk about, do you, how do you measure it against?
We've been fairly vocal about it.
I don't think Amazon's user experience is particularly

(39:24):
friendly for finding live sportsand I would say the only
experience I've ever had was back when NFL Game Pass was
being operated by Delta Trade asa stand alone app.
But I think it's because it was all housed in one place where I
have had similar experiences with the zone.
But it's just like I've done enough platforms that once I get
into the NFL game pass portion of the broader to zone app I'm

(39:47):
fine. But I, I agree with you, but to
the whole point where you measured against, I try to
think, you know, some of the other bigger platforms, like you
said, you know, I think Amazon Prime actually has gone a little
bit better. I do find their live sports a
little bit easier. But I do remember in the past
during the Christmas period whenthey would have the games or
they'd have some tennis or things like that, it wasn't
particularly all that user friendly trying to get between

(40:08):
all their original content, their licence content and then
the live sports. Yeah, that's actually a really
good example. That's probably the, I'd say
it's probably the worst one I'veexperienced.
I would say back a few years ago, I would say they have
definitely made massive inroads in improving it.
But a couple of years ago it wasinsane how you thought all the
rights they had. And you know, Amazon had the
tennis, the ATP relationship where their their stuff was

(40:31):
always available and then they had a bunch of others and it
just was not a good experience to find it, to get onto it.
You had to be looking for it actively.
So I I know it's difficult and I'm not saying necessarily don't
have done a bad job, but it was just again, rough around the
edges for what I think would be an optimal user journey that I
should be getting as someone who's probably a good chance of

(40:54):
subscribing to something in downthe line and trying to remove
every possible friction. .1 thing that Amazon has is it's
set special sources that the oneclick subscription, one click
payments type of thing and the one football is obviously
someone who's done that for quite a while on their platform.
I don't know, I never didn't bother trying to, I didn't try
to click anything to buy on the design.
I'd be interested, would be interested to see how that

(41:15):
journey feels if they want to try and take my money as a
subscriber. So yeah, overall I'd be also
interested. I'm going to probably maybe take
a pause for a week or so then come back on a week from now and
see if anything has changed. If it's a little bit more
polished, the, you know, the adsare being served more, more
regularly or whatnot. I don't know, but just see if

(41:37):
the the experience has changed. One final bit on that is I'm
absolutely getting hammered withnotifications now.
I don't know. I ticked something into my
notification box under zone. Now I'm getting hammered with
updates. I must have had 40 yesterday, I
think for goal announcements, red cards, kickoff for matches.
So I have to go back in and sortthat out.

(42:00):
But that I think that is indicative not just of a design,
but also just I think of all broadcasters to find that middle
ground on platforms. Sorry, find that middle ground
of where you see it, how much content is enough content to
serve a a consumer. Duke, can you be the ESPN of
sports globally and be this place everyone's going to for
all the news related content? Because we haven't even talked

(42:20):
about the fact that they also FIFA announced this new
partnership, this additional partnership with them to to
expand the the coverage of FIFA plus on the platform as well,
which is a another extension of this very, what would you call
it like tricky mix of deals thatare being done around FIFA,
around the zone, around the World Cup.

(42:41):
Yeah, well, there's a cool things you brought up in that
that made like AI completely forgot that the zone were doing
any betting because they they atone point it shut down there for
like, but now it's back. So I, I, I didn't realise that
until I jumped on the app, but maybe it's because I've not been
on the app really since the NFL season ended.
But I was really surprised to belogging on and getting served
some of that stuff around the Club World Cup with some of the

(43:02):
betting. I kind of forgot that that was a
a part of the, the Des zone gameplay.
But one of the other things you talk about the big marketing
push, and again, I'm just one individual person, but just
going through my anecdotal experiences, I've been looking
out for it. And the only thing that I have
seen is I saw one double Decker bus that had just, you know,
some pretty generic, you know, Des zone TuneIn to watch the

(43:23):
Club World Cup, but I don't remember seeing other, you know,
billboards. I don't necessarily remember
getting any kind of serve targeted ads on my social media.
Like it does feel, and maybe it's because they're, they're
pushing that marketing budget towards the US because that's
where they're hoping to drive ticket sales and things like
that. But just being in London, like I
just even from a marketing perspective, I've not seen a

(43:46):
tonne of stuff which I think to like, you know, the World Cup or
the EUR, you know, the amount ofstuff, you know, you might see
for the English national team. And maybe this is a, a bribe
product of, you know, not havinga national team, but Chelsea's
based in London, you know, it's not like.
So, yeah, I, I, I know they've spent a tonne of money on
marketing. I just don't know where it's
gone to or where they're puttingtheir priorities at.

(44:07):
I don't know why that, but I mean, look, let's let's talk
about it before to wrap things up.
I'd say there's a couple of bitsI want to still want to cover,
which we've probably spent more on than I expected on that
experience. But to talk about, there was
obviously the the announcement last week around design and
FIFA's relationship expanding with them now taking FIFA Plus
into the design platform now. I mean, it's interesting for a

(44:29):
few years what I haven't come togrips with.
So for those that didn't see it,they basically they've announced
that they're going to create this home of football
destination within the design app, which will house FIFA Plus
content. So FIFA Plus has all of its
member associations can basically broadcast live matches
on the platform. They have an editorial output,
they have short documentary content, etcetera, and they're

(44:51):
going to create this home of football within the zone now.
So what I I did was just to reach out to that.
I was like, firstly, didn't trying to understand what the
relationship actually would looklike, whether it would be truly
exclusive because you know, likethe NFL game Pass 1.
I actually so I sort of reached out to FIFA to try and get my
head around what it was and whatit wasn't.
I got met with a very straight bat of everything we can tell

(45:14):
you is in the press release, which tells me a lot of nothing,
but basically that they're creating this platform.
What I wanted to know basically is, are they both creating
editorial content that's going into this destination?
Is it is FIFA Plus basically as a platform being sunset shut
down? And is it all going into this
platform exclusively now like Game Pass International was or

(45:34):
they will have the FIFA Plus products still living, living
on, but then have a separate destination in the design
platform. Now I read an article by Carlo
DeMarcus. He was seen to suggesting that
it was going to be the Game Passapproach.
But I asked him and he hasn't come back with any specifics.
How did he? I asked him how he came up with
that because I can't see any date details that determine that

(45:56):
that is actually the the approach.
But I need to check check in with him to see if he's got any
further information. But so I'm not sure what that
is. But is it, is it, is it massive?
Is it basically that product that FIFA Plus was launched the
much fanfare a few years ago as this great new, great new thing

(46:16):
tried to raise 2 billion in invest private equity funding a
while ago. And now is this being wrapped
into the design product or is itgoing to live on and have two
places in destination, which I hope is that rather than just it
becoming FIFA just because I think that's a better approach
by FIFA. However, given the relationship

(46:36):
between the zone with FIFA within, you know, the Saudi
Arabian money coming in, etcetera, to support the the
World Cup, to have the World Cupin Saudi, to have the Club World
Cup being heavily supported by Piff, to have the zone being
backed by Riyadh Seasons and having Saudi visible on the
platform so heavily to receive the the surge investment, which

(46:59):
is basically a billion dollars into the zone and incorporates
the the mean offering of design being launched as part of that
approach. It's just really difficult to
understand why this deal is is happening.
It doesn't make a lot of sense if it was to be just put into
the FIFA at the design platform,how that would benefit FIFA's
longer term goals of having Max visibility given the zone's

(47:22):
current place on a global scale.It works for design.
You know, it gives them another asset to play with, another
reason for people to come to theplatform they didn't have
before. So it gives them access a lot
lot of new markets, which is definitely healthy for them for
the storytelling and for the reach perspective, even if it's
not top tier rights. But I'm a bit a bit lost as to
why this would happen other thanit's just linked with this whole

(47:44):
tent, this whole web of deals and maybe the World Cup, World
Cup and the I'm speculating here, right, But maybe a couple
cup hasn't delivered what the zone were told and sold by FIFA.
And this is another addition to that to basically sweeten the
deal for disown after all this. I'm, I'm not really sure, but

(48:06):
basically it's a bit confusing if they are sunsetting it all
together. I'm I'm a bit of the loss as to
why they would take that approach.
What about you? You know, it's, it's, I have my
own personal opinions, which I just probably will try to phrase
in a different way or maybe on adifferent platform.
You know, I, it is, I think it'shard to deny some of the

(48:26):
different relationships, the, the choice, you know, the
conspiracy theory about the World Cup in 2030, the fact that
they're hosting it in three different continents, which the
conspiracy theory goes that it'sa way to accelerate the pace
with which they can return to a Middle Eastern venue.
Like it sure seems. I know they've wrapped it up and

(48:47):
it's a, it's a ceremonial World Cup and they're hosting it in
all these different countries and they've listed out all these
reasons, but it's hard to ignorethe base.
I think it is the 20342034 WorldCup basically was went to Saudi
Arabia and I think Australia waslike the only other potential
option. I think they basically read the
tea leaves and didn't even bother applying to host it.

(49:10):
So it almost, it's a, you know, is it somewhat like live golf
and PGA where, you know, you're trying to create a competition
to ultimately create an end product through that process
that is more favourable towards what you're looking to achieve?
You know, I don't think the ClubWorld Cup is equivalent to the
the Super League. But like, is there a similar

(49:33):
mentality in terms of trying to harness a larger or cut a larger
piece of the football media value pie by doing this?
Like, it just it it, it feels a little bit like that.
Yeah. Look, I.
Don't I know how how to really address this succinctly or what
have you. In short, there's a lot of

(49:54):
money, that's a lot of money andinfluence etcetera that's come
from the Saudi Arabia through PIF and other means, through
search, PIF and other and other means that is now filtered into
football right across the right,across the ecosystem.
SPL is growing. The Saudi Premier League's
growing rapidly. They've made huge investments
there as well. No, I don't believe there is any
way that the Zone would have done this deal to by the Club

(50:16):
World Cup rights at the level they had without having that
support coming in from a key stakeholder or two like like
Serge Piff and and and the SaudiArabian.
So there's just no way that I think they would be able to
justify that investment. Now there could be some other
political reasons to do it like for example, they want to prove
themselves to try and attract a bigger investment in rights down

(50:37):
the line. You can play all all those cards
out, but I don't think this willbe the optimal way unless you
get some money coming in from other places to basically
bankroll and fund this and make sure that this initiative is, is
financially protected, let's say, and viable for the future
given everything that's been decided at A, at a presidential

(50:58):
level, whether it be a fee for or across the Saudi Arabian
side. So it's complex and it's simple.
At the same time, I think it could just be simple as the
money's coming through various means through through
sponsorship of the broadcast, through investment.
It ultimately the end result is lots of exposure through the
zones platforms, a World Cup coming to Saudi Arabia in a time

(51:19):
it has to be all. I mean, it feels like it has to
be all connected. I could be wrong, but it feels
like it has to be all connected.So the question is ultimately
come back to the one final question for me, which is
probably where we wanted to havestarted.
But I think coming back to it isthe viability and value of doing
this event for disown. The the billion dollar numbers,
the one we've seen seen shared, there's a number shared by our
support businesses, Frank Dunn who'd done some work on trying

(51:41):
to reporting and done some work on basically looking at where
the revenues were coming from. And roughly there's a couple of
100 million coming out of sub licencing deals and a couple of
100 million perhaps coming out of advertising and sponsorships.
Now whether that's sponsorship and advertising includes the
Saudi money, you know, Riyadh Seasons being one of the major
broadcasters that's incorporatedinto it, I don't don't know.

(52:02):
But Frank's a very reliable source for insight and probably
has some goodies to the ground there.
The question is, if that is thatgap is roughly 4 or 500 million,
400 million or so from that five, from that billion dollar
number, how do they make it up? Maybe some securing some new
subscribers to the platform, maybe further programmatic
revenue might be coming in on top of that.

(52:23):
I haven't read the full details of what was published, but the
crux of it is that can't be a surprise to the zone.
So they had to be going this with eyes wide open.
This is possibly the approach that would play out, but they
had that surety in backing that this wouldn't be a disaster if
they weren't able to bridge thatgap directly through direct
revenue streams related to thoserights.

(52:45):
And that's ultimately, I think, how it's must have played out.
Yeah, Well, like I said, Nick. I kind of we, we segue that
we've, we've talked about this story in different ways
seemingly for what feels like a year now.
We'll we'll tune back in becauseI think to your point, it
probably is inappropriate to judge it based off of group

(53:05):
round games that we knew were not going to attract audiences.
Let's see when we get out to theknockout stages and the
potential final, see where we end up.
I don't know if just having the semi finals in the finals, BPSG
versus Bayern Munich and Lionel Messi, centre Miami versus

(53:25):
whatever team you want to name is enough to to justify the
other 60 games that'll have occurred before then.
But, you know, I think we're we're hesitant to to to say it's
the success that I think some people have been trying to say
that it's been validated so far.Yeah.
Well, we can reserve judgement. But I think it's got, they've
got a lot of work to get to a point where we, I think it's

(53:47):
been validated rather than starting at a, a, a, you know, a
.0. So we, we will have to wait and
see if they can pull it off and make this a viable thing in the
end. But at the moment it doesn't
feel like it's heading that direction unless there is some
real momentum generated over thenext couple of weeks.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we'll keep following.
It and we will definitely updateyou when we get to that stage.

(54:07):
We thank you again for joining in for this episode of stream
Time Sports. Thanks everyone.
Now before you go, if you liked what you heard today, be sure to
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You can find me on most social platforms.
A sports pro, Nick. And please do spread the word of
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(54:28):
you've heard or you think we should be doing more or less of
something, then reach out and let me know as I'd love to hear
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Stream timers until next time I.