September 9, 2025 • 35 mins
Do love and relationships come down to...basic human nature? Love Scientist Dawn Maslar-Biggie returns to break down the biology that binds us, what men really need, why women react differently, how the body prepares for love, the physiology behind the psychology, why the third year of a relationship is crucial, the way control your inner animal, and how to keep love lasting beyond the lust
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Pod Popular Podcast for the People.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
The Great Love Debate. It's a Great Love Debase. Hi again,
everyone's Brian how We welcome to the Great Love Debate,
the world's number one dating and relation podcast since twenty fifteen.
One of the things I like about podcasting is I
think every good conversation should be a podcast. So I
had somebody come into Pod Popular Podcast for the People
(00:34):
here in our lovely studios in Boca Ratone, and we
started to have a conversation. And that conversation was so
interesting that I felt it was very selfish not to
share it with you guys. So she didn't know she
was going to get dragged into do a podcast there,
but we were meeting about something else, and I had
a lot of questions, and she has a lot of
answers that are going to lead to more questions from me,
which hopefully will lead to more answers from you. She's
(00:57):
a author, she's a professor, she teaches a lot of things,
but she really knows the science and the biology of love,
which I don't really get into too much around here,
but I think it's a real thing and I'm always
surprised at how little we pay attention to our chemicals
and our hormones and our reactions and the way our
(01:17):
body is, Like, what's going on with my heart and
what's going on with my brain? And how do we
match things up? Don Massler, how are you? I'm doing great?
Thank you for having Oh you have a married name now,
Biggie Biggie. That's a good name. That's good. You took
on a you hyphenated it.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I hyphenated it online so you can find me. Was
it a discussion on my license? I'm a biggie, you're
a biggie.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Wow. Good for you, all right, Don Biggie. Uh So
we were talking before we started to hit the record
button here. It's fortunate and I have recording equipment at
all times with me. And I said, very simply, how
do you feel about the state of love dating relationships
right now? Are you hopeful? And you said you're always helpful,
always hopeful. However, what are we getting wrong that you're like,
(02:05):
we're never improving on this because we don't understand it well.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
As I was trying to kind of put forward, I'm concerned.
I want to get out the information and then people
can make their decision for themselves. Some of the information
that people don't understand is that love has a biological
effect on you. In sex has a biological effect. Attraction
is different than love, and falling in love is different
(02:32):
than long term love. So if you understand the stages,
then you can make the decisions that you want for
your life. So one of the things that we were
talking about was sex, which always comes into a relationship thing.
When is the appropriate time to have sex? Right, So,
for a woman, when she has sex early on in
a relationship, she produces a lot of oxytocin. The oxytocin
(02:56):
will cause her to bond, she can actually fall in love.
Falling in love is a distinct physiological state. We see
changes in the brain, such as deactivation of certain parts
of the brain.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Right, so love is a medical condition for lack of
a better.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Term, it's a physiological state. So it's not a medical
condition because it does not require medicine.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Right, but a a if you did whatever a scan
to read the physiological you can say, oh, that person's
in love.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes, yes, we can do fMRIs yeah and look at
that and also look at their biological levels. For example,
your serotonin level drops. It drops to the level of
someone with OCD obsessive compulsive disorder. That's why you're so
obsessed when you're in the first two years of relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Huh. So the uh, let's back up. So love, I
think it's something you know, it's subjective. I think it
can you have to define it for yourself. But you
think that love, Sorry for your microphones's moving a little bit,
that your love is What does the body do what
it knows it's in love, or what is the body
(04:03):
reaction that says, oh, this being, this thing is now
in a state of love.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Okay, So we call it falling in love, right, right,
it's actually physiologically falling in love. So we see a
build up of enzymes in neurotransmitters and hormones, and then
we see a fall in those. For men, particularly testosterone
plummets when he falls in love, usually when he commits,
and then he usually falls in love, right, And then
(04:31):
we see a deactivation of I know him falling and
falling the microphone exactly. We see a deactivation of certain
parts of the brain, such as the ventral medial prefrontal cortex,
which is the part that judges we see a deactivation
in some of the parietal lobes. We also see a
deactivation of the amygdala, which usually causes anxiety. And that's
(04:55):
one of the reasons why people are like, I'm so
happy and I'm in love, but it only last for
about two years.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So he falls in love. His testosterone is ramped up
when he sees her and he pursues her and I
want her, and then he falls in love and that falls. Well,
that seems that seems like a bad result.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
His vasopress in actually skyrockets.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Oh what is that?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
So that that is with he's when sexually desirous, but
it drops when he's satiated. So that's one of the
reasons why you don't really want to have a sexual
relationship early on, because once he's satiated, it's like done.
He's not really interested in pursuing any long.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
So that's the chase. Okay, he's he's but that's a
short term satiation. Satiation is that the word, because then
it should ramp up again. So here's what happens with testosterone.
You had mentioned testosterone, So.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It build up and you have a part of your
brain called the pursuit spot that testosterone actually expands that
pursuit spot. And one of the reasons why you know,
there's a joke about men don't like to stop for
directions because it's associated with direction. It's part of the hippocampus.
Women have more memory, men have more direction. So it's
(06:10):
the theory is he knows where all the women are,
where he kept them all, so he can get back
to them.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
So, when your testosterone drops, his pursuit stop spot shrinks.
He's less likely to want to pursue. And his testosterone
dropping also called decreases his desire to pursue. So we
see in men, particularly that have a relationship and produce children,
female children, his testosterone will drop to the level of
(06:40):
someone of castration.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Oh no, it doesn't bode well for the human race
and romance.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
No, it brodes great because he's it will be high
in the morning when he goes for work. Around five o'clock,
he's done, he's going home, he's taking care of the family.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
It's Nature's beautiful. She's beautifully orchestrated this.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So the mother, hen the wife, whatever you want to
call it, she's fine with that. Site we are. That's
the cycle we should have been as male female Or
does that trickle down to relationships are out of sync
because of the way our we seem to be most
in sync when we are most in love early on.
But that's a false positive, is that what you're saying, Well.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I think what's happening with that is the deactivation of
the brain decreases the anxiety level. It allows two people
to get close for a while, long enough to really
get to know each other, and then the brain comes back.
We return to homeostasis, right, homeostasis meaning the normal where
we should be. We can't walk around with parts of
(07:45):
our brain deactivated for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
No, but you bring up the two year things. So
you think most relationships are most marriages or whatever you
want to say they are, it's two years is sort
of the point where most of them fall apart. Well.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, Helen Fisher, the you know relationship expert, found in
her research that about two years is the highest divorce rates.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
And that matches with what you're saying about the the
yes chemicals. Yes, so if you can make it past
two years, that's a good sign. Well, now, blove changes.
So in the first in the beginning of it, we
see these activations in pridal load. It actually kind of
looks like cocaine. Taking cocaine on the brain, right, that's
(08:32):
what people are like, I'm looking for chemistry. It's really
it's a cocaine high.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I'm looking for a fixed.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So, but we see when you go into after the
two years and you go you get past the conflict. Well,
there's like a conflict where part where your brain comes back.
If you start getting to a loving relationship and you
actually have to think your way into it, the activity changes.
It goes up to the prefrontal cortex. It's next to
brotherly love, committment, like love that love for your fellow man, morals, ethics,
(09:09):
it's all lives there. But we also see an activation
in our opioids center, and that is that more relaxed
love that it's nurturing, it's more helpful. Men that are
in loving relationship, a long term loving relationship live a
lot longer than their single counterparts because of that health benefit.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, I believe that. But you can't just delay sex
by saying that. That seems like game playing with your
natural inclination desires. If you're just like, well, I'm just
gonna hold off sex until whatever this arbitrary point is.
Isn't it all going to just start then anyway? No
matter how long you wait. Isn't it eventually going to
(09:52):
screw up all our wiring if you wait five days
or five years? Yes? Oh well, so what do we do?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You want it to happen at the same time.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That's a tough bulls eye to hit, because that's trying
to hit two bullseyes.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Right, So, as a female, here's the problem. If I'm
a female and I have sex with you right away
and you don't fall in love but I do. Now
I'm standing outside rattling around your garbage cans, trying to
figure out why you're not calling me because I'm obsessed?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Is that a Is that a stereotype of the way
women act? Isn't the man? I think the man when
he had sex with her, he hopes to like her,
he wants to fall in love with her. I think
not necessarily.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
I mean, if he's if he's still just in pursuit,
if he's meet he meets the sexual satiation person. Yeah,
all right, I got a story. Here we go, story time,
story time. So there's something called a Coolidge effect. Do
you have time for this. Yeah, okay, do you know
President Calvin Coolidge? Yes, okay, So this story.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Goes, President sound that sexy? But what do I know? Well,
we'll see story.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Missus Coolidge thought he was She thought he was hot.
So but he cool and Coolidge right, But Coolidge wasn't
that interested in Missus Coolidge anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So they go on to this trip and they're on
a chicken farm and they start walking around and Missus
Coolidge is up ahead and she looks over and this
rooster's being amorous with this hen. And she goes to
the attendant. She goes, is he like that all the time?
And the attendant says, yes, man, all day every day.
She goes go tell him President Coolidge that. So he
runs back. He goes, President Coolidge, your wife wants me
(11:27):
to point out this rooster. And he looks over. He goes,
all right, I see what he's doing. Is he like
that all the time? Yes, sir, all day every day?
He goes, all right, one more question, son, is it
the same old hen every day? He said, no, sir,
it's a new hen every day. He goes, Now, run
back and tell Missus Coolidge that.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, somebody who was in here earlier before you came in.
Here a lot going on here at pod Popular. And
he said that he'd been happily married for twenty years.
And then he said that he had been married for
twenty one years. And I said, well, which is it.
Were you married for twenty years or twenty one years?
Because I happen to remember in his mind because I said, oh,
(12:09):
twenty years is good, and he goes, that's actually little story.
Him and his wife at the twenty year part took
a nine month break. They just like, let's take a timeout.
They went their separate ways for a while, nobody asked
any questions. They came back, He's like, we've never been
more in love. And I go, is that because you
missed each other more? And he goes, it's because we
(12:31):
appreciated what we had more. And now I'm not saying
that's a very tricky thing to take a time out
and do that, but it was. I think whatever their
malaise that got into their relationship or their habits or
their routines, they needed a way to kickstart that. And
it kickstarted not only you know, parts of their body
(12:51):
that may have been gone put away, They kickstarted their
love for each other and what they had and why
they got together from the first place, and why they
did those twenty years. It's rare that married couples circle
back and get married again after a while, but that's
because a lot of life things, writing checks to each other,
pon divorce and kids and custody. But if people got
to the why did we get together in the first
(13:12):
place and what was the good things about this and
have some distance and some clarity, I think there's some
some upside to that. Absolutely. But back to the relationship
saying so early on a relationship, well.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Let me go, let me this story. So that's called
the Coolidge effect. So I can take a box of rats,
and I can throw a male rat into the box,
and he'll have his way with all the females and
he will lay in the corner exhausted. They can lick
and try to entice him, and he won't budge until
I throw a new female in and then he's up
(13:43):
and at him. And that's the dopamine effect. So that's
that that, so we call it the Coolidge effect. But
that is his dopamine burst up. So part of when
a man falls in love is his dope mean increases
vacopress and his testosterone increases, and then it's going to drop.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
When he falls in love.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
It doesn't mean he's not happy anymore, but he's not
in that crazy like pursuit phase any longer.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So you think men creatures, I guess, are biologically, physiologically
whatever is wired to like the shiny new thing.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Okay, So I know a lot of people don't like
to believe that we're animals.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I believe it. Yeah, but we are.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Actually part of the animal community, Yes we are. So
we abide by all of the rules of the animal community.
So that's a natural a natural component of it. It's
nature likes to spread her seed, but she also likes survival.
So I think falling in love helps with the survival.
(14:47):
For So if we look at what's happening for those
two years, if you produce a child, after about two years,
that child, if they've survived, they're pretty much good to go.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
That may be nature's ultimate goals, just to be able
to get a population going.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, I take a quick break. We have to pay
the bills around here, and we'll be back right after this.
And we are back here with Don Massler Biggie talking
about the birds and the bees. Well, how do you
deal with that in you? That seems like a permanent
hall pass for somebody who's in a relationship with you, where
(15:25):
you're like, well you know that, that's I'm just the
guy and we're just animals and sorry, I hadn't seen
her before and I chased her. Like, how do you
then logically be like, I don't want that or I
don't like that. How do you set the barriers? All? Right?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
So, in order for you to fall in love at
the same time a woman and a man, well, the
woman has to wait for the man to ask for commitment.
Once the man commits in his mind, it actually starts
a physiological process of the dropping of the testosterone, and
then he's more likely to fall in love. So now
if you begin a sexual relationship, she's more likely to
(16:00):
fall in love and he's more likely to fall in love.
So it's orchestrated perfectly as long as we do it
in that order. When we just make assumptions and jump
into bed, one of us falls in love, the other
one doesn't. It's all crank, so he can fall in love.
You do agree that men are capable and once they
do fall in love, they are committed to the bond
(16:24):
and the boundaries of this relationship absolutely, And because they
feel comforted and feel protected a little bit by the
love there I need to go chase something else goes away.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Well, it's not that they're comforted, they're physiologically starts shrinking.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Different parts of them is satiated. Yep, yeah, see that's good.
See I like that. I don't want to think like, well,
we're hopeless and we're just always going to do the
shining thing. So they're initially attracted to the female because
of sexual urges, and eventually all of the other things
that they want satisfied can diminish those urges so they
(17:03):
could focus on other things. Correct, Well, who wouldn't like that?
It's beautiful? So what do you tell women then when
it's time, when it's dating, because a lot of women
are like, well, I have needs too, so I shouldn't
just hold out because he's not capable of doing multitasking
get a bob, Well, how do you have that conversation
on a first date though, or a first date, sixth date,
(17:25):
whatever the date. And you're like, we shouldn't do this
because how do you in layman's terms without seeming like
you just memorized a book. How do you lay this
out to a protective partner that this will be good
for our relationship? It's easy to say.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
I go like this, Brian, I'd really like to have
sex with you, but I want to wait until them
into a committed relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Is that okay with you? We're committed? Baby? What are
you talking about? I love you? Let's do it? Like,
how do you get around that?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Right? Did you ask me for exclusivity?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Well? I don't want you to have sex with anybody else? Okay?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
How about you?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah? Oh you don't want me to have sex with
somebody else? Okay, yeah, I won't. Let's go do it
right now we're together.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Are you asking me to be an exclusive?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I am? I am.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Okay, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Okay. Now what happens, which happens a lot. That conversation happens,
and the sex sucks and she's not committed anymore.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Because the women that really is a big thing for
you know, the old things, know such thing as bad pizza.
Men have a much bigger bandwidth on the sex that
they're just happy to be there a lot of times. Sure,
she'd be like oh, and then she's out and he's like,
but I told you, Like, that's still a reality. Yes,
So we can wait and we can play games and
we do all that one until we know how that
part of is compatible or satisfying. What is the commitment really,
(18:44):
it's just a conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It's just a commitment for exclusivity. You're not having if
we're going to be in a sexual relationship, you're just
not having sex with other people.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Right, Well, are you gonna stick with me if you
don't like the sex for a while? Are we gonna
work that out? That's a different y. Not me, Brian Howie,
but me, the general me.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
You get the risk of falling in love, and then
you have a different risk of bad sex.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I get it's all taking risks, so we're all taking.
So a lot of women and a lot of man
are like, I want to get that part out of
the way so we know from I need to know
if he's a good dancer.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Bad sex does not ameliate falling. The risk of falling
in love, No, that's a much bigger risk.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I agree with that. And the falling in love and
getting hurt, you know, that the bad's actually lost a
night or more. I get that you're trying to have
both parties be honest while also not being fooled by
your own wiring. And that's a challenge for everybody at
(19:40):
every age. You knowing this, how does that manifest itself
in your own You've known this a long time, You've
been studying this a long time. Right when you're are
you constantly evaluating? It's sort of like when therapists are,
you know, go to therapy. They're like, well, I know
why he's asking me that question. Are you constantly like
he's doing this because of this, but I know I
need to guide him over here, So we're like, how
(20:02):
do you do that? You successfully did it because you
just got married.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Right, But to be honest, one of the reasons why
I studied love was because I was not very good
at it. My first book was The Broken Picker Fixture
because I was attracted to the bad boy type and
I had, you know, I had bad relationships and then
I got into the relationship I'm in now. But this
(20:28):
was we got into it fourteen years ago and I
was like, I know, I'm going to study love, so
I don't get this wrong, and I ended up writing
the book about it. But because I was bringing home
textbooks on love, I was driving him crazy. We actually
split up, and we split up for about a year
(20:48):
and we got back together I guess a year and
a half ago, and then got married. But I laid
off that the science stuff. He didn't want to hear
about that anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I know, because although it is hugely valuable, and knowing
this stuff, really the best way to understand your emotions
and your reaction is to understand why they're happening and
to know that they're not so unusual. Knowing you're not
the only one that feels this way is the key
to a lot of things, especially in the great love
debate world. A lot of people are like, oh my god,
I thought I was the only one who did that
(21:21):
or thought that or whatever. The bad boy thing, let
me get into that for a second. Is you brought
that up? Why do the girls like the bad boys?
And they don't seem to care. They're like, yeah, I know,
I do it, but at least it's more exciting. What
is it.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
It's the same reason you guys like the crazy Chick,
we do it.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
The excitement.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Is that the correlation misappropriation of attraction. So there was
a study back in the seventies. They did this bridge study.
They put these people on a high high wire bridge
and they put people on a low bridge, and then
they they had this experiment and basically at the end
they met somebody and they measured the attraction. So the
(22:09):
attraction was much higher on the high bridge because it
was we when we feel those feelings of sphear, we
misappropriate it and think it's attraction.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh, so we're afraid she's going to burn the house down,
but it's kind of hot.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Well it's it's just exciting. I'm on the back of
a motorcycle.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Righty, same thing. So bad boy, crazy chick, they're the same. Yeah,
how good to know that? So I can't make fun
of the bad boys because most of my dating history
I've been attracted to the crazy chick too. How do
we how do we cure that? Is that the right word?
(22:49):
Or how do we understand and get beyond that?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Okay, so attraction has really nothing to do with love whatsoever.
So attraction is just a physiological response. We get the heartbeat,
the sweaty palms, all of that is really fear. We
have to get to know someone to get to love.
So we go through a stage where we're basically falling
(23:13):
in love. That's where we're getting to learn, we're building
up the neurotransmitters. Third stage is falling in love and
en four stages long term love. You don't have to
if you understand that attraction really has nothing to do
with it, you can actually bypass the attraction. You may
still be attracted to the crazy chicks, but you know,
now that's not a good relationship, and I'm going to
(23:37):
look for a more solid relationship and bypass.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
But then is essentially the same as kicking any other addiction,
your addiction to the high and the thrill of that,
the bad boy, the crazy chick, all of it.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Well, a lot of times we kick addiction because it
hurts us more than we're feeling good about it after
a while.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yes, I agree. I mean there has to be a
rock bottom, which I suppose I hate on the rock pot,
and sometimes the way to get out of that is
to see the light, see that you know what, this
guy isn't a bad guy and a good guy made
me feel a certain way that I never could feel
with the bad guy and a same check, for lack
of a better term, made me feel the way that
I haven't felt that I got from the crazy chick.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
All right, so we look at this, what do you
really want? We all usually want a good, wholesome, dependable,
loving relationship. So that's that, yes over here. But then
this crazy person walks by and we're like, ooh, that's exciting.
But if we keep our eye on the prize of
we know that that person can't be that person. You know,
(24:38):
the crazy one is never going to fit into that
picture of us. So we have to use our brain
to go, Okay, maybe this is not really what I want.
And oftentimes it takes some maturity. So a lot of
girls are crazy at twenty thirty. By forty, those crazy
girls cannot get a date that used to have dates
all the time because men grew up and went, I'm
(25:00):
not touching it, right, except maybe you it sounds like
you're still on the crazy chick.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
No, I'm out of the crazy check and I and
it took the right chick to show me that I
was even with the crazy chick. You know, I always
thought I was with the crazy chick because I thought
if we focused on how crazy she was nobody would
look at how crazy I was, and so it took
like the right person to be like, you're okay here
with me, I'm not crazy and this is a better
ride just being like this. I like that. Now. How
(25:27):
do we knowing that our the the love part is
a physiological response ory. Is there a way to accelerate that?
Is there a way, like I want to be in love?
Can I speed that up? Are there things we can do?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You don't have to fall in love. You can go
straight to long term love. And that's why arrange marriages
work because long term love is really in the thinking
part of the brain. So all you have to do
is make the commitment. You can make. You don't even
have to like so get rid of the fall part. Yeah,
you can get rid of the whole attraction, the falling
in love and all that stuff. You can go straight.
(26:04):
If you know, mom comes over from the old country
with a woman and says you're married to her, and
you go, okay, I'm doing this, and you make that commitment,
you go straight to long Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
A lot of those, you know, we've had some of
those who came from families like that on this podcast
and they're like taking away the am I missing out?
Or am I doing wrong? I'm doing the wrong thing,
and just having a lot of those decisions made for me.
It does make the relationship. Actually, then you're focused on
we're in this pool together and we have to figure
out how to make this work. And a lot of
(26:33):
things that break up, you know, non fixed up couples
like that, they tend to work through because they understand
that we are in this together and we are here
and we need to figure out how to make it
you know, richer, poor, sickness and health, and we're going
to make that work. A lot of us now in relationships,
(26:55):
it's not just the quick fixed white culture going in.
It's also once you're already in the relationship, people are
looking to pull the parachute too quick. People are looking
to I don't want to do the word, I'll just
find somebody else. I'll just find somebody else. And that
makes us not necessarily get as committed we should on
the way in, and we're not as committed once we
get there. You know, the falling go back again for
(27:18):
a second, the falling in love. The fall means what physiologically.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Well, there's deactivations. A part of your brain, your serotonin
level drops to someone with OCD, and that's one of
the reasons why when you break it off and you're
in love and they're not, it hurts so bad because
it's also the level of depression. Your serotonin levels down
so low. So the deactivation of the brain includes eventral
(27:44):
medial prefrontal cortex that's the part of the brain that
judges the other person. And then also particularly important for
women is the amygdala, which is the anxiety part of
the brain that rings the alarm bell that goes silent,
so he can do anything. You know, he shows up
with a scheme as on in a bloody axe and
you're like, oh, what.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Are you doing?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, chopping redwood. I don't get it. Yeah, the I
love them and they don't love me back the way
I should. There's no fix for that, or there's no
way to convince your brain that that that seems due
to work close.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
So here's that when that pops up, that usually pops
up after the two years, so your megdala comes back online.
So part of one of the things I do some
coaching with women, and one of the major problems a
lot of women have they've ever had any past trauma, parents, divorced,
they've had bad relationships. Their megdala is big. So the
(28:38):
two years it gets deactivated and then it comes back
and that creates all this anxiety. Maybe he doesn't love
me enough, Maybe is he looking at somebody else? And
that's what she needs to focus on. It's not the relationship,
it's the amygdala. So that's where like the self love
comes in in the beginning. It turns out that meditation
(28:59):
actually shrink the mass of the amigdalah. So doing things
that taking care of yourself and creating more peace and
serenity will help you in long term of relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Will it help you fall in love yes? Or be
a better partner? Just doing that sort of what kind
of work can we do?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's the work that I have a lot of pre
dating women do. Is that work because we need to
get that amigdala.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Predating women already don't do this, And the work is
mostly just calming yourself.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
You're doing for You're calming yourself, You're taking care of yourself.
You want to you need to be able to accept
receive good things. You're also deciding what you want. So
these I get in these coaching positions with these women.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I had one. She's like, I met this guy. He's
really great.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I really love.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Them, but I only want problem. Like, what's the problem.
He's like, well, he's a yacht captain and he's gone
most of the time, six months out of the year.
And I said, is that what you want in a relationship?
She's like, no, how can I change him?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Like, you can't, that's his job, that's who he is.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
So you got to decide before and she had already
fallen in.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Love and if you took away that yacht captain part
of it, he might be a different person. You know,
that is his identity. If you do that, you got
to decide that ahead time. Can you deal with it? Exactly?
Speaker 3 (30:23):
So that's part of the pre dating is you're deciding
what you want, what's acceptable, and what's not your deal breakers,
because a lot of times women will get start getting
in a relationship and then all of a sudden they
pull out these deal breakers. Oh he did this, he
did I'm like, it's now you're it's.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Right down the road. But on the flip side of that,
a lot of people believe certain deal breakers are deal
breakers when they're really not because they haven't actually experienced anything.
Like somebody might say I need somebody of a certain
faith because they never did anybody else, and then when
they get in the situation and like, actually, that wasn't
a deal breaker.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So what I have women do is I have them.
There's five must haves and five deal breakers and that's it.
The other one is negotiable because they start pulling out
all these crazy stuff. He's wearing fel pats. I can't
have fel pats. You know that sounds like a deal break.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Oh, I know, I can't. I need somebody who likes
to ski, maybe a doubt because maybe you'll tear your
a cl and you can't ski anymore. And then if
you say that Florida, right, I know, there's all kinds.
I agree, there's all those kind of things. But men
and women if we do you know, and we talked
a little bit on the last podcast about doing certain
kinds of work and doing that getting yourself in a
mentally calm space while also not dulling your senses or
(31:36):
turning off your you know, putting on such blinders that
you're not open to the stimuli around you, which is
the men and women especially running around South Florida all
the time. That's tough balance. You know, I'm gonna I'm
gonna relax everything. I'm not going to be so have
this feeling of anxiety and desperation to date somebody. But
(31:56):
I'm also have to be completely open to the possibilities.
Which is an animal kingdom toell you know, it's not
quite we put our antenna or our feathers or whatever
the animals have the when they mate. We we're not
quite like that.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Speaking of the animal kingdom we are in some ways
men can sense that anxiety. You show up in a
wedding dress on that first date and he is gone, well,
it's a.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Little flattering when she starts writing your last name out
to see how it looks. Maybe yeah, So it's it's
still a bit of a challenge for all. I mean again,
this isn't supposed to be easy. That's why it's worth it,
you know. But understanding that I have to put myself
in a good headspace. I have to be you know,
work on what I do. But I also have to
not go out of my house and not look at
(32:39):
anybody around me. I have to understand that every single
day of my life there's opportunities all around me, and
I have to either recognize them, act on them, and
not kill them. That's a challenge, but that's you know,
the juice is worth the squeeze, right, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Actually the funniest thing, the best thing a woman can
ever do to find a relationship is go enjoy herself.
Just go out and have fun. Don't worry about anything else.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Right, And if you are having fun, and if you
turn back on the part that laughs and smile, you know,
I get the women don't want to be told to smile.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't smile or find things that are
going to make you smile, because that lets the world
around you know that you're capable of being happy. And
that's the biggest thing that men. Men are like, oh
my god, she I could never take that on. I
(33:24):
don't think I could ever turn that frown around. I
need somebody who's at least has happy on the menu, right,
Men Men like easy? I mean, sorry, yes we do. Yeah, no, yeah,
men do.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Women will take on a home improvement project, but men want.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Easy, right we do. We want to know there's at
least a road map to success with you. We want
to know at least like it's possible if it's a
dead end and you you know, we can't make you happy,
and you can't make you happy, and there's no end
here because you just haven't put yourself in a mental
space or physical space to be that way. Men are
going to check out, They're going to find somebody else.
They're gonna like, oh, look at the group of girls
(34:01):
laughing over there. I'm gonna go throw myself in that pile.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Now, that's not to say they don't like to rescue you.
Guys like some often to rescue.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Too, but they have to know that you're capable of
being rescued or want to be rescued exactly. Yeah, there's
that too. This was fun. How can people get more
information from you than we could get to in forty
minutes or so? Today?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
The best way to find me is on Facebook, Don Masler, Biggie.
My website is Biggie Biggie.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yes, yeah, fix your website. And you need a podcast.
You could go out about this all day long. Ye say,
we would have just wasted this conversation we were having,
would have just gone to the ethers. It would have
just floated off in the wind. So I had to
grab it all in. I had to chase it all
down and bring it to the Great Love listeners. This
was fun as far as us like, Share, subscribe, and
(34:50):
as always, please review this podcast. Your your reviews are
highly important in the podcasting ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
One more thing, one more thing.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, if you're interested in learning about the science of love,
books called men Chase Women.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Choose, Men Chase Women Choose. That sounds reasonable. We will
see you next time because, as always at the Great
Love Debate, we never stop making love. To see you
next time.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the
Great Love Debate.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
It's the Great Love Debate.
This is Pod Popular Podcast for the People.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
The Great Love Debate. It's a Great Love Debase. Hi again,
everyone's Brian how We welcome to the Great Love Debate,
the world's number one dating and relation podcast since twenty fifteen.
One of the things I like about podcasting is I
think every good conversation should be a podcast. So I
had somebody come into Pod Popular Podcast for the People
(00:34):
here in our lovely studios in Boca Ratone, and we
started to have a conversation. And that conversation was so
interesting that I felt it was very selfish not to
share it with you guys. So she didn't know she
was going to get dragged into do a podcast there,
but we were meeting about something else, and I had
a lot of questions, and she has a lot of
answers that are going to lead to more questions from me,
which hopefully will lead to more answers from you. She's
(00:57):
a author, she's a professor, she teaches a lot of things,
but she really knows the science and the biology of love,
which I don't really get into too much around here,
but I think it's a real thing and I'm always
surprised at how little we pay attention to our chemicals
and our hormones and our reactions and the way our
(01:17):
body is, Like, what's going on with my heart and
what's going on with my brain? And how do we
match things up? Don Massler, how are you? I'm doing great?
Thank you for having Oh you have a married name now,
Biggie Biggie. That's a good name. That's good. You took
on a you hyphenated it.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I hyphenated it online so you can find me. Was
it a discussion on my license? I'm a biggie, you're
a biggie.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Wow. Good for you, all right, Don Biggie. Uh So
we were talking before we started to hit the record
button here. It's fortunate and I have recording equipment at
all times with me. And I said, very simply, how
do you feel about the state of love dating relationships
right now? Are you hopeful? And you said you're always helpful,
always hopeful. However, what are we getting wrong that you're like,
(02:05):
we're never improving on this because we don't understand it well.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
As I was trying to kind of put forward, I'm concerned.
I want to get out the information and then people
can make their decision for themselves. Some of the information
that people don't understand is that love has a biological
effect on you. In sex has a biological effect. Attraction
is different than love, and falling in love is different
(02:32):
than long term love. So if you understand the stages,
then you can make the decisions that you want for
your life. So one of the things that we were
talking about was sex, which always comes into a relationship thing.
When is the appropriate time to have sex? Right, So,
for a woman, when she has sex early on in
a relationship, she produces a lot of oxytocin. The oxytocin
(02:56):
will cause her to bond, she can actually fall in love.
Falling in love is a distinct physiological state. We see
changes in the brain, such as deactivation of certain parts
of the brain.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Right, so love is a medical condition for lack of
a better.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Term, it's a physiological state. So it's not a medical
condition because it does not require medicine.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Right, but a a if you did whatever a scan
to read the physiological you can say, oh, that person's
in love.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes, yes, we can do fMRIs yeah and look at
that and also look at their biological levels. For example,
your serotonin level drops. It drops to the level of
someone with OCD obsessive compulsive disorder. That's why you're so
obsessed when you're in the first two years of relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Huh. So the uh, let's back up. So love, I
think it's something you know, it's subjective. I think it
can you have to define it for yourself. But you
think that love, Sorry for your microphones's moving a little bit,
that your love is What does the body do what
it knows it's in love, or what is the body
(04:03):
reaction that says, oh, this being, this thing is now
in a state of love.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Okay, So we call it falling in love, right, right,
it's actually physiologically falling in love. So we see a
build up of enzymes in neurotransmitters and hormones, and then
we see a fall in those. For men, particularly testosterone
plummets when he falls in love, usually when he commits,
and then he usually falls in love, right, And then
(04:31):
we see a deactivation of I know him falling and
falling the microphone exactly. We see a deactivation of certain
parts of the brain, such as the ventral medial prefrontal cortex,
which is the part that judges we see a deactivation
in some of the parietal lobes. We also see a
deactivation of the amygdala, which usually causes anxiety. And that's
(04:55):
one of the reasons why people are like, I'm so
happy and I'm in love, but it only last for
about two years.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So he falls in love. His testosterone is ramped up
when he sees her and he pursues her and I
want her, and then he falls in love and that falls. Well,
that seems that seems like a bad result.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
His vasopress in actually skyrockets.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Oh what is that?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
So that that is with he's when sexually desirous, but
it drops when he's satiated. So that's one of the
reasons why you don't really want to have a sexual
relationship early on, because once he's satiated, it's like done.
He's not really interested in pursuing any long.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
So that's the chase. Okay, he's he's but that's a
short term satiation. Satiation is that the word, because then
it should ramp up again. So here's what happens with testosterone.
You had mentioned testosterone, So.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It build up and you have a part of your
brain called the pursuit spot that testosterone actually expands that
pursuit spot. And one of the reasons why you know,
there's a joke about men don't like to stop for
directions because it's associated with direction. It's part of the hippocampus.
Women have more memory, men have more direction. So it's
(06:10):
the theory is he knows where all the women are,
where he kept them all, so he can get back
to them.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
So, when your testosterone drops, his pursuit stop spot shrinks.
He's less likely to want to pursue. And his testosterone
dropping also called decreases his desire to pursue. So we
see in men, particularly that have a relationship and produce children,
female children, his testosterone will drop to the level of
(06:40):
someone of castration.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Oh no, it doesn't bode well for the human race
and romance.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
No, it brodes great because he's it will be high
in the morning when he goes for work. Around five o'clock,
he's done, he's going home, he's taking care of the family.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
It's Nature's beautiful. She's beautifully orchestrated this.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So the mother, hen the wife, whatever you want to
call it, she's fine with that. Site we are. That's
the cycle we should have been as male female Or
does that trickle down to relationships are out of sync
because of the way our we seem to be most
in sync when we are most in love early on.
But that's a false positive, is that what you're saying, Well.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I think what's happening with that is the deactivation of
the brain decreases the anxiety level. It allows two people
to get close for a while, long enough to really
get to know each other, and then the brain comes back.
We return to homeostasis, right, homeostasis meaning the normal where
we should be. We can't walk around with parts of
(07:45):
our brain deactivated for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
No, but you bring up the two year things. So
you think most relationships are most marriages or whatever you
want to say they are, it's two years is sort
of the point where most of them fall apart. Well.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, Helen Fisher, the you know relationship expert, found in
her research that about two years is the highest divorce rates.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
And that matches with what you're saying about the the
yes chemicals. Yes, so if you can make it past
two years, that's a good sign. Well, now, blove changes.
So in the first in the beginning of it, we
see these activations in pridal load. It actually kind of
looks like cocaine. Taking cocaine on the brain, right, that's
(08:32):
what people are like, I'm looking for chemistry. It's really
it's a cocaine high.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I'm looking for a fixed.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So, but we see when you go into after the
two years and you go you get past the conflict. Well,
there's like a conflict where part where your brain comes back.
If you start getting to a loving relationship and you
actually have to think your way into it, the activity changes.
It goes up to the prefrontal cortex. It's next to
brotherly love, committment, like love that love for your fellow man, morals, ethics,
(09:09):
it's all lives there. But we also see an activation
in our opioids center, and that is that more relaxed
love that it's nurturing, it's more helpful. Men that are
in loving relationship, a long term loving relationship live a
lot longer than their single counterparts because of that health benefit.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, I believe that. But you can't just delay sex
by saying that. That seems like game playing with your
natural inclination desires. If you're just like, well, I'm just
gonna hold off sex until whatever this arbitrary point is.
Isn't it all going to just start then anyway? No
matter how long you wait. Isn't it eventually going to
(09:52):
screw up all our wiring if you wait five days
or five years? Yes? Oh well, so what do we do?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You want it to happen at the same time.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That's a tough bulls eye to hit, because that's trying
to hit two bullseyes.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Right, So, as a female, here's the problem. If I'm
a female and I have sex with you right away
and you don't fall in love but I do. Now
I'm standing outside rattling around your garbage cans, trying to
figure out why you're not calling me because I'm obsessed?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Is that a Is that a stereotype of the way
women act? Isn't the man? I think the man when
he had sex with her, he hopes to like her,
he wants to fall in love with her. I think
not necessarily.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
I mean, if he's if he's still just in pursuit,
if he's meet he meets the sexual satiation person. Yeah,
all right, I got a story. Here we go, story time,
story time. So there's something called a Coolidge effect. Do
you have time for this. Yeah, okay, do you know
President Calvin Coolidge? Yes, okay, So this story.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Goes, President sound that sexy? But what do I know? Well,
we'll see story.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Missus Coolidge thought he was She thought he was hot.
So but he cool and Coolidge right, But Coolidge wasn't
that interested in Missus Coolidge anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So they go on to this trip and they're on
a chicken farm and they start walking around and Missus
Coolidge is up ahead and she looks over and this
rooster's being amorous with this hen. And she goes to
the attendant. She goes, is he like that all the time?
And the attendant says, yes, man, all day every day.
She goes go tell him President Coolidge that. So he
runs back. He goes, President Coolidge, your wife wants me
(11:27):
to point out this rooster. And he looks over. He goes,
all right, I see what he's doing. Is he like
that all the time? Yes, sir, all day every day?
He goes, all right, one more question, son, is it
the same old hen every day? He said, no, sir,
it's a new hen every day. He goes, Now, run
back and tell Missus Coolidge that.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, somebody who was in here earlier before you came in.
Here a lot going on here at pod Popular. And
he said that he'd been happily married for twenty years.
And then he said that he had been married for
twenty one years. And I said, well, which is it.
Were you married for twenty years or twenty one years?
Because I happen to remember in his mind because I said, oh,
(12:09):
twenty years is good, and he goes, that's actually little story.
Him and his wife at the twenty year part took
a nine month break. They just like, let's take a timeout.
They went their separate ways for a while, nobody asked
any questions. They came back, He's like, we've never been
more in love. And I go, is that because you
missed each other more? And he goes, it's because we
(12:31):
appreciated what we had more. And now I'm not saying
that's a very tricky thing to take a time out
and do that, but it was. I think whatever their
malaise that got into their relationship or their habits or
their routines, they needed a way to kickstart that. And
it kickstarted not only you know, parts of their body
(12:51):
that may have been gone put away, They kickstarted their
love for each other and what they had and why
they got together from the first place, and why they
did those twenty years. It's rare that married couples circle
back and get married again after a while, but that's
because a lot of life things, writing checks to each other,
pon divorce and kids and custody. But if people got
to the why did we get together in the first
(13:12):
place and what was the good things about this and
have some distance and some clarity, I think there's some
some upside to that. Absolutely. But back to the relationship
saying so early on a relationship, well.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Let me go, let me this story. So that's called
the Coolidge effect. So I can take a box of rats,
and I can throw a male rat into the box,
and he'll have his way with all the females and
he will lay in the corner exhausted. They can lick
and try to entice him, and he won't budge until
I throw a new female in and then he's up
(13:43):
and at him. And that's the dopamine effect. So that's
that that, so we call it the Coolidge effect. But
that is his dopamine burst up. So part of when
a man falls in love is his dope mean increases
vacopress and his testosterone increases, and then it's going to drop.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
When he falls in love.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
It doesn't mean he's not happy anymore, but he's not
in that crazy like pursuit phase any longer.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So you think men creatures, I guess, are biologically, physiologically
whatever is wired to like the shiny new thing.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Okay, So I know a lot of people don't like
to believe that we're animals.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I believe it. Yeah, but we are.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Actually part of the animal community, Yes we are. So
we abide by all of the rules of the animal community.
So that's a natural a natural component of it. It's
nature likes to spread her seed, but she also likes survival.
So I think falling in love helps with the survival.
(14:47):
For So if we look at what's happening for those
two years, if you produce a child, after about two years,
that child, if they've survived, they're pretty much good to go.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
That may be nature's ultimate goals, just to be able
to get a population going.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, I take a quick break. We have to pay
the bills around here, and we'll be back right after this.
And we are back here with Don Massler Biggie talking
about the birds and the bees. Well, how do you
deal with that in you? That seems like a permanent
hall pass for somebody who's in a relationship with you, where
(15:25):
you're like, well you know that, that's I'm just the
guy and we're just animals and sorry, I hadn't seen
her before and I chased her. Like, how do you
then logically be like, I don't want that or I
don't like that. How do you set the barriers? All? Right?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
So, in order for you to fall in love at
the same time a woman and a man, well, the
woman has to wait for the man to ask for commitment.
Once the man commits in his mind, it actually starts
a physiological process of the dropping of the testosterone, and
then he's more likely to fall in love. So now
if you begin a sexual relationship, she's more likely to
(16:00):
fall in love and he's more likely to fall in love.
So it's orchestrated perfectly as long as we do it
in that order. When we just make assumptions and jump
into bed, one of us falls in love, the other
one doesn't. It's all crank, so he can fall in love.
You do agree that men are capable and once they
do fall in love, they are committed to the bond
(16:24):
and the boundaries of this relationship absolutely, And because they
feel comforted and feel protected a little bit by the
love there I need to go chase something else goes away.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Well, it's not that they're comforted, they're physiologically starts shrinking.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Different parts of them is satiated. Yep, yeah, see that's good.
See I like that. I don't want to think like, well,
we're hopeless and we're just always going to do the
shining thing. So they're initially attracted to the female because
of sexual urges, and eventually all of the other things
that they want satisfied can diminish those urges so they
(17:03):
could focus on other things. Correct, Well, who wouldn't like that?
It's beautiful? So what do you tell women then when
it's time, when it's dating, because a lot of women
are like, well, I have needs too, so I shouldn't
just hold out because he's not capable of doing multitasking
get a bob, Well, how do you have that conversation
on a first date though, or a first date, sixth date,
(17:25):
whatever the date. And you're like, we shouldn't do this
because how do you in layman's terms without seeming like
you just memorized a book. How do you lay this
out to a protective partner that this will be good
for our relationship? It's easy to say.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
I go like this, Brian, I'd really like to have
sex with you, but I want to wait until them
into a committed relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Is that okay with you? We're committed? Baby? What are
you talking about? I love you? Let's do it? Like,
how do you get around that?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Right? Did you ask me for exclusivity?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Well? I don't want you to have sex with anybody else? Okay?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
How about you?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah? Oh you don't want me to have sex with
somebody else? Okay, yeah, I won't. Let's go do it
right now we're together.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Are you asking me to be an exclusive?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I am? I am.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Okay, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Okay. Now what happens, which happens a lot. That conversation happens,
and the sex sucks and she's not committed anymore.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Because the women that really is a big thing for
you know, the old things, know such thing as bad pizza.
Men have a much bigger bandwidth on the sex that
they're just happy to be there a lot of times. Sure,
she'd be like oh, and then she's out and he's like,
but I told you, Like, that's still a reality. Yes,
So we can wait and we can play games and
we do all that one until we know how that
part of is compatible or satisfying. What is the commitment really,
(18:44):
it's just a conversation.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It's just a commitment for exclusivity. You're not having if
we're going to be in a sexual relationship, you're just
not having sex with other people.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Right, Well, are you gonna stick with me if you
don't like the sex for a while? Are we gonna
work that out? That's a different y. Not me, Brian Howie,
but me, the general me.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
You get the risk of falling in love, and then
you have a different risk of bad sex.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I get it's all taking risks, so we're all taking.
So a lot of women and a lot of man
are like, I want to get that part out of
the way so we know from I need to know
if he's a good dancer.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Bad sex does not ameliate falling. The risk of falling
in love, No, that's a much bigger risk.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I agree with that. And the falling in love and
getting hurt, you know, that the bad's actually lost a
night or more. I get that you're trying to have
both parties be honest while also not being fooled by
your own wiring. And that's a challenge for everybody at
(19:40):
every age. You knowing this, how does that manifest itself
in your own You've known this a long time, You've
been studying this a long time. Right when you're are
you constantly evaluating? It's sort of like when therapists are,
you know, go to therapy. They're like, well, I know
why he's asking me that question. Are you constantly like
he's doing this because of this, but I know I
need to guide him over here, So we're like, how
(20:02):
do you do that? You successfully did it because you
just got married.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Right, But to be honest, one of the reasons why
I studied love was because I was not very good
at it. My first book was The Broken Picker Fixture
because I was attracted to the bad boy type and
I had, you know, I had bad relationships and then
I got into the relationship I'm in now. But this
(20:28):
was we got into it fourteen years ago and I
was like, I know, I'm going to study love, so
I don't get this wrong, and I ended up writing
the book about it. But because I was bringing home
textbooks on love, I was driving him crazy. We actually
split up, and we split up for about a year
(20:48):
and we got back together I guess a year and
a half ago, and then got married. But I laid
off that the science stuff. He didn't want to hear
about that anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I know, because although it is hugely valuable, and knowing
this stuff, really the best way to understand your emotions
and your reaction is to understand why they're happening and
to know that they're not so unusual. Knowing you're not
the only one that feels this way is the key
to a lot of things, especially in the great love
debate world. A lot of people are like, oh my god,
I thought I was the only one who did that
(21:21):
or thought that or whatever. The bad boy thing, let
me get into that for a second. Is you brought
that up? Why do the girls like the bad boys?
And they don't seem to care. They're like, yeah, I know,
I do it, but at least it's more exciting. What
is it.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
It's the same reason you guys like the crazy Chick,
we do it.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
The excitement.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Is that the correlation misappropriation of attraction. So there was
a study back in the seventies. They did this bridge study.
They put these people on a high high wire bridge
and they put people on a low bridge, and then
they they had this experiment and basically at the end
they met somebody and they measured the attraction. So the
(22:09):
attraction was much higher on the high bridge because it
was we when we feel those feelings of sphear, we
misappropriate it and think it's attraction.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh, so we're afraid she's going to burn the house down,
but it's kind of hot.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Well it's it's just exciting. I'm on the back of
a motorcycle.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Righty, same thing. So bad boy, crazy chick, they're the same. Yeah,
how good to know that? So I can't make fun
of the bad boys because most of my dating history
I've been attracted to the crazy chick too. How do
we how do we cure that? Is that the right word?
(22:49):
Or how do we understand and get beyond that?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Okay, so attraction has really nothing to do with love whatsoever.
So attraction is just a physiological response. We get the heartbeat,
the sweaty palms, all of that is really fear. We
have to get to know someone to get to love.
So we go through a stage where we're basically falling
(23:13):
in love. That's where we're getting to learn, we're building
up the neurotransmitters. Third stage is falling in love and
en four stages long term love. You don't have to
if you understand that attraction really has nothing to do
with it, you can actually bypass the attraction. You may
still be attracted to the crazy chicks, but you know,
now that's not a good relationship, and I'm going to
(23:37):
look for a more solid relationship and bypass.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
But then is essentially the same as kicking any other addiction,
your addiction to the high and the thrill of that,
the bad boy, the crazy chick, all of it.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Well, a lot of times we kick addiction because it
hurts us more than we're feeling good about it after
a while.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yes, I agree. I mean there has to be a
rock bottom, which I suppose I hate on the rock pot,
and sometimes the way to get out of that is
to see the light, see that you know what, this
guy isn't a bad guy and a good guy made
me feel a certain way that I never could feel
with the bad guy and a same check, for lack
of a better term, made me feel the way that
I haven't felt that I got from the crazy chick.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
All right, so we look at this, what do you
really want? We all usually want a good, wholesome, dependable,
loving relationship. So that's that, yes over here. But then
this crazy person walks by and we're like, ooh, that's exciting.
But if we keep our eye on the prize of
we know that that person can't be that person. You know,
(24:38):
the crazy one is never going to fit into that
picture of us. So we have to use our brain
to go, Okay, maybe this is not really what I want.
And oftentimes it takes some maturity. So a lot of
girls are crazy at twenty thirty. By forty, those crazy
girls cannot get a date that used to have dates
all the time because men grew up and went, I'm
(25:00):
not touching it, right, except maybe you it sounds like
you're still on the crazy chick.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
No, I'm out of the crazy check and I and
it took the right chick to show me that I
was even with the crazy chick. You know, I always
thought I was with the crazy chick because I thought
if we focused on how crazy she was nobody would
look at how crazy I was, and so it took
like the right person to be like, you're okay here
with me, I'm not crazy and this is a better
ride just being like this. I like that. Now. How
(25:27):
do we knowing that our the the love part is
a physiological response ory. Is there a way to accelerate that?
Is there a way, like I want to be in love?
Can I speed that up? Are there things we can do?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You don't have to fall in love. You can go
straight to long term love. And that's why arrange marriages
work because long term love is really in the thinking
part of the brain. So all you have to do
is make the commitment. You can make. You don't even
have to like so get rid of the fall part. Yeah,
you can get rid of the whole attraction, the falling
in love and all that stuff. You can go straight.
(26:04):
If you know, mom comes over from the old country
with a woman and says you're married to her, and
you go, okay, I'm doing this, and you make that commitment,
you go straight to long Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
A lot of those, you know, we've had some of
those who came from families like that on this podcast
and they're like taking away the am I missing out?
Or am I doing wrong? I'm doing the wrong thing,
and just having a lot of those decisions made for me.
It does make the relationship. Actually, then you're focused on
we're in this pool together and we have to figure
out how to make this work. And a lot of
(26:33):
things that break up, you know, non fixed up couples
like that, they tend to work through because they understand
that we are in this together and we are here
and we need to figure out how to make it
you know, richer, poor, sickness and health, and we're going
to make that work. A lot of us now in relationships,
(26:55):
it's not just the quick fixed white culture going in.
It's also once you're already in the relationship, people are
looking to pull the parachute too quick. People are looking
to I don't want to do the word, I'll just
find somebody else. I'll just find somebody else. And that
makes us not necessarily get as committed we should on
the way in, and we're not as committed once we
get there. You know, the falling go back again for
(27:18):
a second, the falling in love. The fall means what physiologically.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Well, there's deactivations. A part of your brain, your serotonin
level drops to someone with OCD, and that's one of
the reasons why when you break it off and you're
in love and they're not, it hurts so bad because
it's also the level of depression. Your serotonin levels down
so low. So the deactivation of the brain includes eventral
(27:44):
medial prefrontal cortex that's the part of the brain that
judges the other person. And then also particularly important for
women is the amygdala, which is the anxiety part of
the brain that rings the alarm bell that goes silent,
so he can do anything. You know, he shows up
with a scheme as on in a bloody axe and
you're like, oh, what.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Are you doing?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, chopping redwood. I don't get it. Yeah, the I
love them and they don't love me back the way
I should. There's no fix for that, or there's no
way to convince your brain that that that seems due
to work close.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
So here's that when that pops up, that usually pops
up after the two years, so your megdala comes back online.
So part of one of the things I do some
coaching with women, and one of the major problems a
lot of women have they've ever had any past trauma, parents, divorced,
they've had bad relationships. Their megdala is big. So the
(28:38):
two years it gets deactivated and then it comes back
and that creates all this anxiety. Maybe he doesn't love
me enough, Maybe is he looking at somebody else? And
that's what she needs to focus on. It's not the relationship,
it's the amygdala. So that's where like the self love
comes in in the beginning. It turns out that meditation
(28:59):
actually shrink the mass of the amigdalah. So doing things
that taking care of yourself and creating more peace and
serenity will help you in long term of relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Will it help you fall in love yes? Or be
a better partner? Just doing that sort of what kind
of work can we do?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's the work that I have a lot of pre
dating women do. Is that work because we need to
get that amigdala.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Predating women already don't do this, And the work is
mostly just calming yourself.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
You're doing for You're calming yourself, You're taking care of yourself.
You want to you need to be able to accept
receive good things. You're also deciding what you want. So
these I get in these coaching positions with these women.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I had one. She's like, I met this guy. He's
really great.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I really love.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Them, but I only want problem. Like, what's the problem.
He's like, well, he's a yacht captain and he's gone
most of the time, six months out of the year.
And I said, is that what you want in a relationship?
She's like, no, how can I change him?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Like, you can't, that's his job, that's who he is.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
So you got to decide before and she had already
fallen in.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Love and if you took away that yacht captain part
of it, he might be a different person. You know,
that is his identity. If you do that, you got
to decide that ahead time. Can you deal with it? Exactly?
Speaker 3 (30:23):
So that's part of the pre dating is you're deciding
what you want, what's acceptable, and what's not your deal breakers,
because a lot of times women will get start getting
in a relationship and then all of a sudden they
pull out these deal breakers. Oh he did this, he
did I'm like, it's now you're it's.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Right down the road. But on the flip side of that,
a lot of people believe certain deal breakers are deal
breakers when they're really not because they haven't actually experienced anything.
Like somebody might say I need somebody of a certain
faith because they never did anybody else, and then when
they get in the situation and like, actually, that wasn't
a deal breaker.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So what I have women do is I have them.
There's five must haves and five deal breakers and that's it.
The other one is negotiable because they start pulling out
all these crazy stuff. He's wearing fel pats. I can't
have fel pats. You know that sounds like a deal break.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Oh, I know, I can't. I need somebody who likes
to ski, maybe a doubt because maybe you'll tear your
a cl and you can't ski anymore. And then if
you say that Florida, right, I know, there's all kinds.
I agree, there's all those kind of things. But men
and women if we do you know, and we talked
a little bit on the last podcast about doing certain
kinds of work and doing that getting yourself in a
mentally calm space while also not dulling your senses or
(31:36):
turning off your you know, putting on such blinders that
you're not open to the stimuli around you, which is
the men and women especially running around South Florida all
the time. That's tough balance. You know, I'm gonna I'm
gonna relax everything. I'm not going to be so have
this feeling of anxiety and desperation to date somebody. But
(31:56):
I'm also have to be completely open to the possibilities.
Which is an animal kingdom toell you know, it's not
quite we put our antenna or our feathers or whatever
the animals have the when they mate. We we're not
quite like that.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Speaking of the animal kingdom we are in some ways
men can sense that anxiety. You show up in a
wedding dress on that first date and he is gone, well,
it's a.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Little flattering when she starts writing your last name out
to see how it looks. Maybe yeah, So it's it's
still a bit of a challenge for all. I mean again,
this isn't supposed to be easy. That's why it's worth it,
you know. But understanding that I have to put myself
in a good headspace. I have to be you know,
work on what I do. But I also have to
not go out of my house and not look at
(32:39):
anybody around me. I have to understand that every single
day of my life there's opportunities all around me, and
I have to either recognize them, act on them, and
not kill them. That's a challenge, but that's you know,
the juice is worth the squeeze, right, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Actually the funniest thing, the best thing a woman can
ever do to find a relationship is go enjoy herself.
Just go out and have fun. Don't worry about anything else.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Right, And if you are having fun, and if you
turn back on the part that laughs and smile, you know,
I get the women don't want to be told to smile.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't smile or find things that are
going to make you smile, because that lets the world
around you know that you're capable of being happy. And
that's the biggest thing that men. Men are like, oh
my god, she I could never take that on. I
(33:24):
don't think I could ever turn that frown around. I
need somebody who's at least has happy on the menu, right,
Men Men like easy? I mean, sorry, yes we do. Yeah, no, yeah,
men do.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Women will take on a home improvement project, but men want.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Easy, right we do. We want to know there's at
least a road map to success with you. We want
to know at least like it's possible if it's a
dead end and you you know, we can't make you happy,
and you can't make you happy, and there's no end
here because you just haven't put yourself in a mental
space or physical space to be that way. Men are
going to check out, They're going to find somebody else.
They're gonna like, oh, look at the group of girls
(34:01):
laughing over there. I'm gonna go throw myself in that pile.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Now, that's not to say they don't like to rescue you.
Guys like some often to rescue.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Too, but they have to know that you're capable of
being rescued or want to be rescued exactly. Yeah, there's
that too. This was fun. How can people get more
information from you than we could get to in forty
minutes or so? Today?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
The best way to find me is on Facebook, Don Masler, Biggie.
My website is Biggie Biggie.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yes, yeah, fix your website. And you need a podcast.
You could go out about this all day long. Ye say,
we would have just wasted this conversation we were having,
would have just gone to the ethers. It would have
just floated off in the wind. So I had to
grab it all in. I had to chase it all
down and bring it to the Great Love listeners. This
was fun as far as us like, Share, subscribe, and
(34:50):
as always, please review this podcast. Your your reviews are
highly important in the podcasting ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
One more thing, one more thing.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, if you're interested in learning about the science of love,
books called men Chase Women.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Choose, Men Chase Women Choose. That sounds reasonable. We will
see you next time because, as always at the Great
Love Debate, we never stop making love. To see you
next time.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the
Great Love Debate.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
It's the Great Love Debate.
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