March 30, 2023 • 21 mins
In the final episode of season 1 on The Great Retirement Debate, Ed and Jeff discuss the topics covered over the last 18 episodes and what to expect from The Great Retirement Debate going forward.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:00):
Hi, I'm Ed Slott.
(00:01):
And I'm Jeff Levine.
And we are two guys who just loveto talk about retirement and taxes.
Look, our mission is simple to educateyou, the savers, so that you can make
better decisions because better decisionson the hall lead to better outcomes.
And here's how we're going to do that.
Each week, Jeff and I will debatethe pros and the cons of a particular
retirement strategy or topic with the.
(00:23):
Helping you keep more ofyour hard-earned money.
Yeah, but we won't know which side ofthe debate we're taking until we flip
a coin winner of the coin flip gets topick which side of the debate they want
to argue, and both of us will have toargue in favor of our respect positions,
whether we agree with them or not.
At the end of each debate, there'sgoing to be one clear winner you, a more
(00:45):
informed saver who can hopefully applythe merits of each side of the debate
to your own personal situation to decidewhat's best for you and your family.
So here we go.
Welcome to the Great Retirement Debate.
Jeffrey Levine (01:02):
All right, welcome back to the Great Retirement Debate.
Ed.
How's it going today?
Ed Slott (01:06):
Pretty good.
We're down to the end now.
Uh, this is our 19th episode coming up.
Jeffrey Levine (01:11):
That's right.
And the last of season one.
So this is gonna be, uh,a special episode for us.
This is our last episode for season oneand, uh, a little bit of a different
format today, instead of our typicaldebate, we're gonna kinda look back at,
uh, some of the discussions we've had.
And Ed, you know, we, we've covered alot of ground this, uh, this season.
(01:33):
A lot of different topics.
Ed Slott (01:35):
Well, I'm looking at the list.
I have it in front of me and I'mamazed how many questions, you
know, it's based on listeners.
We we're out in the field a lot.
We hear a lot of thesequestions people have, should
I do this or should I do that?
And that's the point of this debateto give you both sides of the pros
and cons and benefits and drawbacks.
And we did cover a lot of ground, but thebig items that people are asking about.
Jeffrey Levine (02:01):
So lot of big items as you just mentioned.
Let me ask you, looking back at,at, at the first season, what,
what was your favorite debate?
Like, which one, like, which one sticksout in your mind as perhaps the one
where, whether you just had the mostfun discussing it or whether it was
a surprise as we went through it?
You know, what, what, what,which one was your favorite?
Ed Slott (02:22):
Well, I have to pick two.
Our recap of Secure 2.0 deal orno deal, part one and part two.
Those are the two.
That was a, a shift, a lot of newprovisions, but as we found out, there
was nothing earth shattering there.
It wasn't transformative.
It wasn't groundbreaking like the originalsecure Act was, but there was still so
(02:44):
many provisions, so many little ones.
I think there were over 90 retirementprovisions and secure 2.0 a little
something for everybody and a lot oflittle things that you have to know.
And it took us two episodes to gothrough it and some people are still
surprised of what's in Secure 2.0.
Jeffrey Levine (03:02):
Yeah, we probably could have done four or five
episodes to cover every provisionas, uh, as we look back at that one.
You know, that was one where we had 90plus provisions in a, in a bill, and
boy, you know, if you like secure Actone, the original that was roughly a
dozen, there was a lot more to look at.
As you said, maybe not anything asimpactful as perhaps the death of the
(03:25):
stretch was in the original secure act.
But lots of things with more modestimpacts still add up to potentially
very important things to know.
I gotta say on on my end, maybe alittle bit of, um, you know, nostalgia,
looking back to episode one, but Ireally enjoyed our debate about should
I take social security or use my ira?
(03:46):
And that, you know, that just continuesto be a question I hear all the time.
Uh, there continues tobe new research in fact.
Uh, just in this last January, Ed,in January of 2023, I don't know
if you saw, but there was a, uh, areally interesting article in the
Journal of Financial Planning by, uh,Steve Parrish and Wade Pfau, uh, two,
(04:08):
you know, retirement, uh, experts.
Ed Slott (04:10):
I know them both from the American College.
Jeffrey Levine (04:12):
That's right.
That's, that's exactly right.
Two professors from the American Collegeand, you know, they, they look at not just
the insurance value of social security,which we often talk about, but they went
a step further and said, um, if we'rejust concerned about leaving more money
to your heirs, what does that look like?
(04:33):
And you know, we, we could spenda lot of time just covering
this, but we, we already did.
Uh, but, but there are new researchbasically showed that even if
we're just talking about I wantto leave the greatest legacy, like
what, what leaves me at death?
Forget about the insurance elementof social security and delaying,
but just the idea of can I, do I getmore money when I die on average?
(04:54):
They actually found that you would have tohave a particularly aggressive allocation
in throughout your kind of retirementand have good fortune of the markets in
order for, uh, using, uh, in, in order forusing your own money not to work out well.
Right?
So in other words, delaying socialsecurity still really comes out to be
(05:16):
a winner for many, many individuals andthere's just more research about that.
It continues to be the single most askedquestion of any that I think we had.
Maybe along with should I usethe trust as a beneficiary.
Ed Slott (05:27):
Yeah.
I was surprised at that one.
Back on the social security, that'ssomething we can do all the time because
so many people have different typesof questions and the demographics are
there where you have the baby boomersmoving in, into social security area.
So, uh, the demographic is just tensof thousands of people, uh, applying
(05:48):
and starting to collect or making adecision on when, when to begin each day.
So that's always going to be a big issue,especially like you said, if they have
other assets, IRAs, which to use, whereto invest, but the trust is beneficiary.
That was actually our secondepisode and one of the most
popular, and that surprised me.
And maybe because people, a lot ofpeople had these trusts that seemed
(06:12):
to work before the Secure Act.
The original Secure Act and the Secure Actreally put the kibosh on a lot of these
trusts with the 10 year rule in highertaxes for the post death protection.
So I think, uh, people gota lot out of that episode.
Jeffrey Levine (06:28):
So I, I got another question for you, ed, like, was, was
there a particular episode where,where you really felt that one of
us had the short end of the stick?
You know, like...
Ed Slott (06:37):
Oh, yeah.
Uh, you did.
I, I'm trying to, I'mlooking at the, the list.
Uh, I, I can't remember.
Jeffrey Levine (06:43):
Well, I'll, I'll give you one.
I mean, one of us had to arguein favor of 72 T payments.
Ed Slott (06:47):
Oh yeah, right.
Yeah.
That, no, I think it was Roth related,where I had a sweet, or one of us had
a sweet deal because I think we're bothRoth IRA fans because we like the idea
of, uh, having, uh, locking in tax free,uh, savings and income in retirement.
So it's hard to argue againstthat, but it's not, but that's
the point of this program.
(07:08):
It's not for the, the answeris not the same for everybody.
Everybody has their own customizedfacts and circumstances and
family and financial situations.
So I'm glad we give both sides evena side that we're both on, because we
both kind of like Roths, but for somepeople it's, it's not for everybody.
Jeffrey Levine (07:27):
All right.
So I, I, I got, I got, I'm gonna rapidfire here and I got another one for you.
Did, did you change your mind aboutanything after having one of our debates?
Ed Slott (07:38):
I'm looking through the, uh, through the list here.
Uh, I, I'm trying to think.
I don't, I don't see.
Uh, I don't see anything where,you know, I felt we gave, uh,
good sides on both of them.
And it's not a questionof changing my mind.
I think we gave both sidesof the argument, uh, whatever
(08:01):
the, whatever the debate was.
We, we gave, like I said, thepros and cons on each one.
So I think those were all good.
And, and when we talk about thesethings, you can go by episode and
look at the ones we're talking about.
They're all numbered, they're all onthere for you to, uh, listen to, and
it might pay to listen to them again.
Especially things you don't hear a lotabout, like gifting versus inheriting.
(08:25):
That was a good one.
Most people don't realize thedifference between the two or one
that was uh, kind of interesting.
A Roth IRA versus Roth 401k.
A little confusing.
And I think we got good points outon that because especially with
Roth, uh, 401k starting in 2024,not having RMDs for Lifetime.
(08:47):
That's a big change that may change somepeople's minds or keeping, uh, Roth 401K
dollars in the plan and instead of rolling'em out to a Roth IRA, I think it's
important to understand the differencebecause there were many differences
between having your own Roth IRA orkeeping the Roth 401k in, in the plan.
(09:09):
Or downsizing my home in retirement.
Uh, we, we had a debate on that.
I think that was one where Isaid, I don't remember which side.
Jeffrey Levine (09:19):
I, I, I took the, I took the side of, no, don't, don't, don't
take, don't downsize in retirement.
Enjoy it with your kidsand your grandkids.
That was my argument.
Yeah.
Ed Slott (09:27):
Right.
And I said, well, it's good to simplifyand things, but I like being in my home.
You know, like my father, hestayed in the home until he died.
And then the minute he died, my motherwent out, sold the home and got an
apartment like she always wanted.
. Jeffrey Levine: Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually really enjoyed that one too.
I think of all the discussions we had,that was one that really stuck out to me
(09:50):
as, as one of the most earnest because wewere both drawing from things, you know,
in, in our actual lives that you know,that, that, that lead us to a certain way.
You know, again, you thinking aboutthe simplicity of the situation, but
enjoying your house and me, you know,having just finished building a house.
You know, the, uh, the ideaof just envisioning, you know,
(10:11):
generations in that house to come.
Uh, maybe my kids won't want that,but you know, I hope to make that
the place where we all come visit.
And I, I thought that was a greatdiscussion and the type of discussion
that is so good to have with, you know, anindependent person there, whether that's
your tax advisor, your financial advisor,uh, or in some cases just a good friend.
(10:33):
You know, sometimes you, you, youhave blind spots and a good financial
professional can help you uncover those.
But, but just even talking throughit, you begin to understand what your,
what your true values are in lifeand, and that today is what a great
financial advisor can do for you, notjust the numbers and the dollars and
(10:56):
the cents and knowing the tax rules.
Tho those are, I, I hate to say almosttable stakes because it, it's a lot.
You have to invest a lot of time andknowledge to, to build up that, that
reservoir of information and wisdom.
But it's Taking that knowledge andinformation and the ones and zeros, right,
(11:17):
the, the stuff that is factual, right?
And then really helping you dive in andapplying it to your specific values.
You not only your set of facts andcircumstances, as we say in every episode,
but your values what's most importantto you in life versus someone else.
And, and that just is different for every.
And it's, you know, in many of the programs that we did, many of
(11:40):
these episodes, I pointed out thatthere's a generation between you and I.
So we have different perspectives,
Jeffrey Levine (11:46):
Right.
Mine is correct and yours is not.
Ed Slott (11:50):
That's where you are.
Uh, you see in 30 years if you still wannamaintain that house, but maybe it will.
Jeffrey Levine (11:56):
I like the idea of having the place where everybody comes
to for holidays and get togethers.
Have a nice place like that.
You know, it, it sounds like,uh, one of those Hallmark movies.
That's, that's that.
Well, that's, that's what I envision.
You, you pretty much, pretty much have it.
Ed, let me ask one more questionhere before maybe we we start
to, to wrap up Season one.
(12:18):
Insert tear emoji right there.
All right, so, uh, Ed emoji, youknow, is something that is like a
picture that is, I'm just teasing.
That's a generation.
So the, you know, as we, aswe sit here, was there, did
you get any specific comments?
I know you know.
Meet with a lot of people as you do.
We speak with a lot of, uh,advisors and a lot of consumers.
(12:40):
Was there one particular, you know,episode or topic that you got a lot of,
you know, feedback on personally or any,any specific comment and you're like,
huh, that was, that was interesting.
Or, or just that really stuck out to you?
Ed Slott (12:53):
Yeah.
In the beginning we got a comment.
I don't remember if you saw it,but we always acknowledge in the
beginning when the other person, youor I made a good point, we're arguing
one side of the debate and I'llsay, oh Jeff, that is a good point.
But it's the other side of thedebate and people say, well, we
wanna hear, we don't want to hearthat you agree with each other.
We wanna hear opposite sides.
(13:15):
. . Jeffrey Levine: That's right, that's right.
So we try to, you know, looklike everything else Ed you.
You start something and you refine itover time and hopefully here by our 19th
episode we're, we're a little bit betterat this than we were when we started.
And, uh, you know, for, for me, I thinkthe episode that stuck out for me in
terms of feedback was episode 10 whenwe talked about tax diversification.
(13:36):
Yes.
That was one of the mostpopular, I'm looking on the list.
It was the third mostpopular of all of them.
Jeffrey Levine (13:43):
Yeah.
And, and, and it stuck out for me becausethat was one where I really felt that
we had a good earnest debate and I, Iactually got feedback from a number of
people that after we had a discussionabout that, they they really reframed
how they go about thinking about things.
That was one of the ones where I, I feltthat we really changed some opinions or
(14:07):
created, uh, a different viewpoint amongstpeople where they didn't have it before.
So to me, that's whatthis is all about, right?
Is, is not, again, thatyou pointed out earlier.
Not that the thing is right or wrong,but that there's two sides to, to, but...
Ed Slott (14:20):
To learn from it!
Jeffrey Levine (14:21):
That's right to learn, and that's what we set out to do.
Ed Slott (14:24):
There's so much bias stuff out there that sometimes people hear
what they want to hear or they're toldwhat they want to hear and they're
not giving, you know, it depends whohas, is there an ulterior motive from
the person that's telling you that.
What I like about this is there's no such,it's independent, objective, unbiased,
this, these are the pros, these are thecons, and you know, these are factors
(14:46):
you have to take into account beforemaking a major financial decision.
And if I just go through, so the listof the topics we covered, I think
almost every one of these are majorfinancial decisions and some of which
you don't even get a second chance at.
Like, should I take socialsecurity early or not?
Name a trust as a beneficiary.
Should I take a pension, lump sum,or the, uh, an annuity income stream?
(15:12):
Should I buy long-term care insurance?
Every one of these titles, theseare separate episodes where
you can gain a lot of insight.
Should I use a Roth IRA or life insurance?
Should I pay off debt before I retire?
Should I use a Roth IRA or529 plan to save for college?
That was interesting.
Many people don't look at Roth IRAsas a a education funding vehicle.
(15:34):
Uh, should I own maybein , should I own cryptocurrency?
Maybe we'll wait on that.
I, in my retirement account,uh, was that before or after
the crash we had that episode?
I don't even remember.
Jeffrey Levine (15:47):
I, I think maybe like during the crash.
Yeah, it was, uh, yeah.
You know, there was just a lot ofground covered this season and.
You know, I guess Ed now would be agood time to, uh, to, to let people
know the, the good news, at leastwe hope you would find it to be good
news, is that The Great RetirementDebate has been renewed for season two.
Yes.
We've, we've got approval to go.
(16:08):
Of course, when I say it's been renewedand we have approval, basically, Ed, you
and I said, hey, we'll do this again.
Like it was, it was,uh, it was, it was fun.
We had a good time doing it.
Ed Slott (16:17):
Things change too.
Like we did that two part series on secure2.0 that wasn't on the, uh, blackboard
or, uh, planning when we started this.
That, that's right.
But a lot of people were asking about itand we took a different spin there rather
than pro or con, we said deal or no deal.
Which provisions are good, we're moreuseful, less useful, more impactful.
(16:37):
So we'll be doing things like that.
As laws or changes develop, andthey're always changing these things.
Look at the secure 2.0, there areprovisions going out for 10 years.
Do you really think that any ofthose provisions or many of them
will hold for the full 10 years?
I don't think so.
I think we'll see lots more changes.
Jeffrey Levine (16:56):
I, one thing that we can almost always bet on Ed is,
is, is change, especially, you know,with a divided Congress, or I should
say divided political parties.
You know, one party gets inand their agenda's completely
different than the other.
As soon as they havecontrol, they pass laws.
Uh, you know, and, and you know,we focus on tax policy, Ed.
(17:16):
Which is, you know, we, we lookat some other things, but we
focus primarily on tax policy.
And, and that is different than justabout everything else because of the
special congressional rule, um, or thesenate rule on reconciliation, right?
You can do things with a simplemajority in the Senate for taxes
that you can't do for, for just aboutall other types of major issues.
(17:38):
And so that just means that there'smore likely to be changes here.
But hey, it's, it's more fodder,it's more, uh, it, it's more topics
for a potential or not a potential,but it's more topics for season
two of the great retirement debate.
And you know, as we've talked,Ed, we, we've got a couple of
surprises . Up our sleeves here.
We won't, uh, we won't reveal them yet.
(17:58):
You'll have to tune in.
This'll, this'll be ourbig cliffhanger, Ed.
Yep.
I mean that I, you could see, I,I, I feel that people are sitting
on the edges of their seats.
Uh, I think as you mentioned before, we,we got on and started recording , Ed, this
will be our, our big who Shot JR moment.
Like what will they do for season two?
Same, same level of interest i, I'm sure.
Ed Slott (18:18):
And Jeff, how would you even know who shot JR?
How old were you even alive then?
Jeffrey Levine (18:26):
I, uh, Nick at night when I, I think that might be the answer.
You know, when they, when they showthe oldies or something like that?
Ed Slott (18:33):
Yeah.
But the bottom line is, the reasonwe're doing this is this, most of
people's savings, that's calledthe Great Retirement Debate.
Most of people's savings are sittingin tax deferred accounts, IRAs.
401ks and taxes will be the singlebiggest factor that will eventually
separate you from your, uh,from a decent retirement or not.
(18:53):
You know, the decisions you make willbe the determining factor of how much
of your saved retirement funds you getto keep and how much goes to Uncle Sam.
So hopefully these programs help youhave more, keep more, and pass more
on of your hard-earned money, you canonly keep when it comes to retirement
savings, what you can keep after taxes.
(19:15):
Every dollar you save in taxes isanother dollar in your bank account.
You can save a fortune over agood lifetime of planning in
taxes, and that will make adifference in your life and beyond.
So that's what we hope tocontinue in our next season.
Jeffrey Levine (19:31):
Yeah, and, and it bears reminding.
You know, while, while we didn'tnecessarily have a debate today, one
thing that regardless of our, ourdifferent or same viewpoints that we
always agree on, is the fact that wheneveryou have a big financial decision, like
any of these, any of these questionsthat we discussed this season, whether
it's should I name a trust as mybeneficiary when to take Social security,
(19:54):
have a Roth or not, should I downsize.
It's best to talk through these. Decisions with a independent tax or
financial advisor so that you canunderstand both sides of the issue.
Understand the pluses and theminuses, the benefits, the drawbacks,
the advantages, the disadvantages.
Insert your words of choice here,but to understand what it means for
(20:15):
you and your family, and that issomething we continue to agree on.
We hope that we can continue tobring you more valuable information
and insights in season two.
And, uh, Ed, you know, when we, whenwe set out to start this, I thought
we'd have a lot of fun doing itand, uh, and, and I, I won't speak
for you, but I will just say I did.
(20:37):
I had a lot of fun this seasonand I can't wait for season two.
Ed Slott (20:40):
Me too.
So onward and upward.
Jeffrey Levine (20:43):
We'll see you next season on The Great Retirement Debate.
Outro (20:46):
Jeffrey Levine is Chief Planning Officer for Buckingham Wealth Partners.
This podcast is for informational andeducational purposes only, and should
not be construed as specific investmentaccounting, legal or tax advice.
Certain information mentioned maybe based on third party information,
which may become outdated orotherwise superseded without notice.
Third party information is deemed tobe reliable, but it's accuracy and
completeness cannot be guaranteed.
(21:07):
The topic discussed in correspondingarguments are those of the speakers
and may not accurately reflectthose of Buckingham Wealth partners.
Hi, I'm Ed Slott.
(00:01):
And I'm Jeff Levine.
And we are two guys who just loveto talk about retirement and taxes.
Look, our mission is simple to educateyou, the savers, so that you can make
better decisions because better decisionson the hall lead to better outcomes.
And here's how we're going to do that.
Each week, Jeff and I will debatethe pros and the cons of a particular
retirement strategy or topic with the.
(00:23):
Helping you keep more ofyour hard-earned money.
Yeah, but we won't know which side ofthe debate we're taking until we flip
a coin winner of the coin flip gets topick which side of the debate they want
to argue, and both of us will have toargue in favor of our respect positions,
whether we agree with them or not.
At the end of each debate, there'sgoing to be one clear winner you, a more
(00:45):
informed saver who can hopefully applythe merits of each side of the debate
to your own personal situation to decidewhat's best for you and your family.
So here we go.
Welcome to the Great Retirement Debate.
Jeffrey Levine (01:02):
All right, welcome back to the Great Retirement Debate.
Ed.
How's it going today?
Ed Slott (01:06):
Pretty good.
We're down to the end now.
Uh, this is our 19th episode coming up.
Jeffrey Levine (01:11):
That's right.
And the last of season one.
So this is gonna be, uh,a special episode for us.
This is our last episode for season oneand, uh, a little bit of a different
format today, instead of our typicaldebate, we're gonna kinda look back at,
uh, some of the discussions we've had.
And Ed, you know, we, we've covered alot of ground this, uh, this season.
(01:33):
A lot of different topics.
Ed Slott (01:35):
Well, I'm looking at the list.
I have it in front of me and I'mamazed how many questions, you
know, it's based on listeners.
We we're out in the field a lot.
We hear a lot of thesequestions people have, should
I do this or should I do that?
And that's the point of this debateto give you both sides of the pros
and cons and benefits and drawbacks.
And we did cover a lot of ground, but thebig items that people are asking about.
Jeffrey Levine (02:01):
So lot of big items as you just mentioned.
Let me ask you, looking back at,at, at the first season, what,
what was your favorite debate?
Like, which one, like, which one sticksout in your mind as perhaps the one
where, whether you just had the mostfun discussing it or whether it was
a surprise as we went through it?
You know, what, what, what,which one was your favorite?
Ed Slott (02:22):
Well, I have to pick two.
Our recap of Secure 2.0 deal orno deal, part one and part two.
Those are the two.
That was a, a shift, a lot of newprovisions, but as we found out, there
was nothing earth shattering there.
It wasn't transformative.
It wasn't groundbreaking like the originalsecure Act was, but there was still so
(02:44):
many provisions, so many little ones.
I think there were over 90 retirementprovisions and secure 2.0 a little
something for everybody and a lot oflittle things that you have to know.
And it took us two episodes to gothrough it and some people are still
surprised of what's in Secure 2.0.
Jeffrey Levine (03:02):
Yeah, we probably could have done four or five
episodes to cover every provisionas, uh, as we look back at that one.
You know, that was one where we had 90plus provisions in a, in a bill, and
boy, you know, if you like secure Actone, the original that was roughly a
dozen, there was a lot more to look at.
As you said, maybe not anything asimpactful as perhaps the death of the
(03:25):
stretch was in the original secure act.
But lots of things with more modestimpacts still add up to potentially
very important things to know.
I gotta say on on my end, maybe alittle bit of, um, you know, nostalgia,
looking back to episode one, but Ireally enjoyed our debate about should
I take social security or use my ira?
(03:46):
And that, you know, that just continuesto be a question I hear all the time.
Uh, there continues tobe new research in fact.
Uh, just in this last January, Ed,in January of 2023, I don't know
if you saw, but there was a, uh, areally interesting article in the
Journal of Financial Planning by, uh,Steve Parrish and Wade Pfau, uh, two,
(04:08):
you know, retirement, uh, experts.
Ed Slott (04:10):
I know them both from the American College.
Jeffrey Levine (04:12):
That's right.
That's, that's exactly right.
Two professors from the American Collegeand, you know, they, they look at not just
the insurance value of social security,which we often talk about, but they went
a step further and said, um, if we'rejust concerned about leaving more money
to your heirs, what does that look like?
(04:33):
And you know, we, we could spenda lot of time just covering
this, but we, we already did.
Uh, but, but there are new researchbasically showed that even if
we're just talking about I wantto leave the greatest legacy, like
what, what leaves me at death?
Forget about the insurance elementof social security and delaying,
but just the idea of can I, do I getmore money when I die on average?
(04:54):
They actually found that you would have tohave a particularly aggressive allocation
in throughout your kind of retirementand have good fortune of the markets in
order for, uh, using, uh, in, in order forusing your own money not to work out well.
Right?
So in other words, delaying socialsecurity still really comes out to be
(05:16):
a winner for many, many individuals andthere's just more research about that.
It continues to be the single most askedquestion of any that I think we had.
Maybe along with should I usethe trust as a beneficiary.
Ed Slott (05:27):
Yeah.
I was surprised at that one.
Back on the social security, that'ssomething we can do all the time because
so many people have different typesof questions and the demographics are
there where you have the baby boomersmoving in, into social security area.
So, uh, the demographic is just tensof thousands of people, uh, applying
(05:48):
and starting to collect or making adecision on when, when to begin each day.
So that's always going to be a big issue,especially like you said, if they have
other assets, IRAs, which to use, whereto invest, but the trust is beneficiary.
That was actually our secondepisode and one of the most
popular, and that surprised me.
And maybe because people, a lot ofpeople had these trusts that seemed
(06:12):
to work before the Secure Act.
The original Secure Act and the Secure Actreally put the kibosh on a lot of these
trusts with the 10 year rule in highertaxes for the post death protection.
So I think, uh, people gota lot out of that episode.
Jeffrey Levine (06:28):
So I, I got another question for you, ed, like, was, was
there a particular episode where,where you really felt that one of
us had the short end of the stick?
You know, like...
Ed Slott (06:37):
Oh, yeah.
Uh, you did.
I, I'm trying to, I'mlooking at the, the list.
Uh, I, I can't remember.
Jeffrey Levine (06:43):
Well, I'll, I'll give you one.
I mean, one of us had to arguein favor of 72 T payments.
Ed Slott (06:47):
Oh yeah, right.
Yeah.
That, no, I think it was Roth related,where I had a sweet, or one of us had
a sweet deal because I think we're bothRoth IRA fans because we like the idea
of, uh, having, uh, locking in tax free,uh, savings and income in retirement.
So it's hard to argue againstthat, but it's not, but that's
the point of this program.
(07:08):
It's not for the, the answeris not the same for everybody.
Everybody has their own customizedfacts and circumstances and
family and financial situations.
So I'm glad we give both sides evena side that we're both on, because we
both kind of like Roths, but for somepeople it's, it's not for everybody.
Jeffrey Levine (07:27):
All right.
So I, I, I got, I got, I'm gonna rapidfire here and I got another one for you.
Did, did you change your mind aboutanything after having one of our debates?
Ed Slott (07:38):
I'm looking through the, uh, through the list here.
Uh, I, I'm trying to think.
I don't, I don't see.
Uh, I don't see anything where,you know, I felt we gave, uh,
good sides on both of them.
And it's not a questionof changing my mind.
I think we gave both sidesof the argument, uh, whatever
(08:01):
the, whatever the debate was.
We, we gave, like I said, thepros and cons on each one.
So I think those were all good.
And, and when we talk about thesethings, you can go by episode and
look at the ones we're talking about.
They're all numbered, they're all onthere for you to, uh, listen to, and
it might pay to listen to them again.
Especially things you don't hear a lotabout, like gifting versus inheriting.
(08:25):
That was a good one.
Most people don't realize thedifference between the two or one
that was uh, kind of interesting.
A Roth IRA versus Roth 401k.
A little confusing.
And I think we got good points outon that because especially with
Roth, uh, 401k starting in 2024,not having RMDs for Lifetime.
(08:47):
That's a big change that may change somepeople's minds or keeping, uh, Roth 401K
dollars in the plan and instead of rolling'em out to a Roth IRA, I think it's
important to understand the differencebecause there were many differences
between having your own Roth IRA orkeeping the Roth 401k in, in the plan.
(09:09):
Or downsizing my home in retirement.
Uh, we, we had a debate on that.
I think that was one where Isaid, I don't remember which side.
Jeffrey Levine (09:19):
I, I, I took the, I took the side of, no, don't, don't, don't
take, don't downsize in retirement.
Enjoy it with your kidsand your grandkids.
That was my argument.
Yeah.
Ed Slott (09:27):
Right.
And I said, well, it's good to simplifyand things, but I like being in my home.
You know, like my father, hestayed in the home until he died.
And then the minute he died, my motherwent out, sold the home and got an
apartment like she always wanted.
. Jeffrey Levine: Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually really enjoyed that one too.
I think of all the discussions we had,that was one that really stuck out to me
(09:50):
as, as one of the most earnest because wewere both drawing from things, you know,
in, in our actual lives that you know,that, that, that lead us to a certain way.
You know, again, you thinking aboutthe simplicity of the situation, but
enjoying your house and me, you know,having just finished building a house.
You know, the, uh, the ideaof just envisioning, you know,
(10:11):
generations in that house to come.
Uh, maybe my kids won't want that,but you know, I hope to make that
the place where we all come visit.
And I, I thought that was a greatdiscussion and the type of discussion
that is so good to have with, you know, anindependent person there, whether that's
your tax advisor, your financial advisor,uh, or in some cases just a good friend.
(10:33):
You know, sometimes you, you, youhave blind spots and a good financial
professional can help you uncover those.
But, but just even talking throughit, you begin to understand what your,
what your true values are in lifeand, and that today is what a great
financial advisor can do for you, notjust the numbers and the dollars and
(10:56):
the cents and knowing the tax rules.
Tho those are, I, I hate to say almosttable stakes because it, it's a lot.
You have to invest a lot of time andknowledge to, to build up that, that
reservoir of information and wisdom.
But it's Taking that knowledge andinformation and the ones and zeros, right,
(11:17):
the, the stuff that is factual, right?
And then really helping you dive in andapplying it to your specific values.
You not only your set of facts andcircumstances, as we say in every episode,
but your values what's most importantto you in life versus someone else.
And, and that just is different for every.
And it's, you know, in many of the programs that we did, many of
(11:40):
these episodes, I pointed out thatthere's a generation between you and I.
So we have different perspectives,
Jeffrey Levine (11:46):
Right.
Mine is correct and yours is not.
Ed Slott (11:50):
That's where you are.
Uh, you see in 30 years if you still wannamaintain that house, but maybe it will.
Jeffrey Levine (11:56):
I like the idea of having the place where everybody comes
to for holidays and get togethers.
Have a nice place like that.
You know, it, it sounds like,uh, one of those Hallmark movies.
That's, that's that.
Well, that's, that's what I envision.
You, you pretty much, pretty much have it.
Ed, let me ask one more questionhere before maybe we we start
to, to wrap up Season one.
(12:18):
Insert tear emoji right there.
All right, so, uh, Ed emoji, youknow, is something that is like a
picture that is, I'm just teasing.
That's a generation.
So the, you know, as we, aswe sit here, was there, did
you get any specific comments?
I know you know.
Meet with a lot of people as you do.
We speak with a lot of, uh,advisors and a lot of consumers.
(12:40):
Was there one particular, you know,episode or topic that you got a lot of,
you know, feedback on personally or any,any specific comment and you're like,
huh, that was, that was interesting.
Or, or just that really stuck out to you?
Ed Slott (12:53):
Yeah.
In the beginning we got a comment.
I don't remember if you saw it,but we always acknowledge in the
beginning when the other person, youor I made a good point, we're arguing
one side of the debate and I'llsay, oh Jeff, that is a good point.
But it's the other side of thedebate and people say, well, we
wanna hear, we don't want to hearthat you agree with each other.
We wanna hear opposite sides.
(13:15):
. . Jeffrey Levine: That's right, that's right.
So we try to, you know, looklike everything else Ed you.
You start something and you refine itover time and hopefully here by our 19th
episode we're, we're a little bit betterat this than we were when we started.
And, uh, you know, for, for me, I thinkthe episode that stuck out for me in
terms of feedback was episode 10 whenwe talked about tax diversification.
(13:36):
Yes.
That was one of the mostpopular, I'm looking on the list.
It was the third mostpopular of all of them.
Jeffrey Levine (13:43):
Yeah.
And, and, and it stuck out for me becausethat was one where I really felt that
we had a good earnest debate and I, Iactually got feedback from a number of
people that after we had a discussionabout that, they they really reframed
how they go about thinking about things.
That was one of the ones where I, I feltthat we really changed some opinions or
(14:07):
created, uh, a different viewpoint amongstpeople where they didn't have it before.
So to me, that's whatthis is all about, right?
Is, is not, again, thatyou pointed out earlier.
Not that the thing is right or wrong,but that there's two sides to, to, but...
Ed Slott (14:20):
To learn from it!
Jeffrey Levine (14:21):
That's right to learn, and that's what we set out to do.
Ed Slott (14:24):
There's so much bias stuff out there that sometimes people hear
what they want to hear or they're toldwhat they want to hear and they're
not giving, you know, it depends whohas, is there an ulterior motive from
the person that's telling you that.
What I like about this is there's no such,it's independent, objective, unbiased,
this, these are the pros, these are thecons, and you know, these are factors
(14:46):
you have to take into account beforemaking a major financial decision.
And if I just go through, so the listof the topics we covered, I think
almost every one of these are majorfinancial decisions and some of which
you don't even get a second chance at.
Like, should I take socialsecurity early or not?
Name a trust as a beneficiary.
Should I take a pension, lump sum,or the, uh, an annuity income stream?
(15:12):
Should I buy long-term care insurance?
Every one of these titles, theseare separate episodes where
you can gain a lot of insight.
Should I use a Roth IRA or life insurance?
Should I pay off debt before I retire?
Should I use a Roth IRA or529 plan to save for college?
That was interesting.
Many people don't look at Roth IRAsas a a education funding vehicle.
(15:34):
Uh, should I own maybein , should I own cryptocurrency?
Maybe we'll wait on that.
I, in my retirement account,uh, was that before or after
the crash we had that episode?
I don't even remember.
Jeffrey Levine (15:47):
I, I think maybe like during the crash.
Yeah, it was, uh, yeah.
You know, there was just a lot ofground covered this season and.
You know, I guess Ed now would be agood time to, uh, to, to let people
know the, the good news, at leastwe hope you would find it to be good
news, is that The Great RetirementDebate has been renewed for season two.
Yes.
We've, we've got approval to go.
(16:08):
Of course, when I say it's been renewedand we have approval, basically, Ed, you
and I said, hey, we'll do this again.
Like it was, it was,uh, it was, it was fun.
We had a good time doing it.
Ed Slott (16:17):
Things change too.
Like we did that two part series on secure2.0 that wasn't on the, uh, blackboard
or, uh, planning when we started this.
That, that's right.
But a lot of people were asking about itand we took a different spin there rather
than pro or con, we said deal or no deal.
Which provisions are good, we're moreuseful, less useful, more impactful.
(16:37):
So we'll be doing things like that.
As laws or changes develop, andthey're always changing these things.
Look at the secure 2.0, there areprovisions going out for 10 years.
Do you really think that any ofthose provisions or many of them
will hold for the full 10 years?
I don't think so.
I think we'll see lots more changes.
Jeffrey Levine (16:56):
I, one thing that we can almost always bet on Ed is,
is, is change, especially, you know,with a divided Congress, or I should
say divided political parties.
You know, one party gets inand their agenda's completely
different than the other.
As soon as they havecontrol, they pass laws.
Uh, you know, and, and you know,we focus on tax policy, Ed.
(17:16):
Which is, you know, we, we lookat some other things, but we
focus primarily on tax policy.
And, and that is different than justabout everything else because of the
special congressional rule, um, or thesenate rule on reconciliation, right?
You can do things with a simplemajority in the Senate for taxes
that you can't do for, for just aboutall other types of major issues.
(17:38):
And so that just means that there'smore likely to be changes here.
But hey, it's, it's more fodder,it's more, uh, it, it's more topics
for a potential or not a potential,but it's more topics for season
two of the great retirement debate.
And you know, as we've talked,Ed, we, we've got a couple of
surprises . Up our sleeves here.
We won't, uh, we won't reveal them yet.
(17:58):
You'll have to tune in.
This'll, this'll be ourbig cliffhanger, Ed.
Yep.
I mean that I, you could see, I,I, I feel that people are sitting
on the edges of their seats.
Uh, I think as you mentioned before, we,we got on and started recording , Ed, this
will be our, our big who Shot JR moment.
Like what will they do for season two?
Same, same level of interest i, I'm sure.
Ed Slott (18:18):
And Jeff, how would you even know who shot JR?
How old were you even alive then?
Jeffrey Levine (18:26):
I, uh, Nick at night when I, I think that might be the answer.
You know, when they, when they showthe oldies or something like that?
Ed Slott (18:33):
Yeah.
But the bottom line is, the reasonwe're doing this is this, most of
people's savings, that's calledthe Great Retirement Debate.
Most of people's savings are sittingin tax deferred accounts, IRAs.
401ks and taxes will be the singlebiggest factor that will eventually
separate you from your, uh,from a decent retirement or not.
(18:53):
You know, the decisions you make willbe the determining factor of how much
of your saved retirement funds you getto keep and how much goes to Uncle Sam.
So hopefully these programs help youhave more, keep more, and pass more
on of your hard-earned money, you canonly keep when it comes to retirement
savings, what you can keep after taxes.
(19:15):
Every dollar you save in taxes isanother dollar in your bank account.
You can save a fortune over agood lifetime of planning in
taxes, and that will make adifference in your life and beyond.
So that's what we hope tocontinue in our next season.
Jeffrey Levine (19:31):
Yeah, and, and it bears reminding.
You know, while, while we didn'tnecessarily have a debate today, one
thing that regardless of our, ourdifferent or same viewpoints that we
always agree on, is the fact that wheneveryou have a big financial decision, like
any of these, any of these questionsthat we discussed this season, whether
it's should I name a trust as mybeneficiary when to take Social security,
(19:54):
have a Roth or not, should I downsize.
It's best to talk through these. Decisions with a independent tax or
financial advisor so that you canunderstand both sides of the issue.
Understand the pluses and theminuses, the benefits, the drawbacks,
the advantages, the disadvantages.
Insert your words of choice here,but to understand what it means for
(20:15):
you and your family, and that issomething we continue to agree on.
We hope that we can continue tobring you more valuable information
and insights in season two.
And, uh, Ed, you know, when we, whenwe set out to start this, I thought
we'd have a lot of fun doing itand, uh, and, and I, I won't speak
for you, but I will just say I did.
(20:37):
I had a lot of fun this seasonand I can't wait for season two.
Ed Slott (20:40):
Me too.
So onward and upward.
Jeffrey Levine (20:43):
We'll see you next season on The Great Retirement Debate.
Outro (20:46):
Jeffrey Levine is Chief Planning Officer for Buckingham Wealth Partners.
This podcast is for informational andeducational purposes only, and should
not be construed as specific investmentaccounting, legal or tax advice.
Certain information mentioned maybe based on third party information,
which may become outdated orotherwise superseded without notice.
Third party information is deemed tobe reliable, but it's accuracy and
completeness cannot be guaranteed.
(21:07):
The topic discussed in correspondingarguments are those of the speakers
and may not accurately reflectthose of Buckingham Wealth partners.
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