Bonus Episode - True crime round table

Here is the audio from the True Crime Round Table that we had the pleasure of doing with Adam for Uk True Crime, Mike from Murder mile, and Paul from The True Crime Enthusiast, its a lot of chat and a lot of fun with a bit of nonsense we hope  you enjoy 

Thanks for listening 

Episode Transcript

(00:33):
Hello and welcome to this special episodeof Twisted Britain. This is the extracted
audio of our true Crime round Tablethat we had the pleasure of doing with
Mike from Murder Mile, Adam fromUK True Crime and Paul the true crime
enthusiast. I hope you enjoy.There's a lot of nonsense, but a
lot of fun. Thank you,love you bye. Hello and welcome to

(00:54):
the latest episode of the True Crimepodcast round Table. Thank you oh so
much for joining us. It's greatto have you here this evening. So
my name is Adam, host ofthe UK True Crime podcast. Let's introduce
my co host PERSI. Mike,you've been in the water this week.
What's been going on? Oh,I've been an idiot. I injured my
back so I put hot water bottlein it because I was I was My

(01:17):
back was sore, the water bottlesplit. I didn't realize and I've got
a second degree burns on my back. Nice, So so I went to
the hospital and they are very nice. Nurse burst them. You could you
could feel her doing that. Shehad to kind of twist them off and
she was having such a lovely timearacing dinner. I hope you're enjoying your

(01:42):
food. Get them out anyway.How's things in Wrexham? Things with Wrexham
are very wet at the moment.It is just in in biblical rain all
weekend. What's I'm expecting to seethe art floating past later on? It
was just crazy. Apart from that, everything you do. Hey, great

(02:06):
stuff, And we've got two fantasticguests tonight known to all of you here.
I'm sure we've got Bob and Ali, the host of Twisted Britain.
Hey, guys, Hey you didn'tknow. Hi everybody, We're good.
This is the most technical we've everbeen at any point in our lives together.
It is. It took me halfan hour to log in. But

(02:28):
you've got more of this to come. Because in the old days you boys
used to go to the boozer andsterling have a chat and that was it,
wasn't it. So what's been goingon? I've heard you've move Dally.
I am no in Bournemouth. Iam engaged. That's an engagement ring.
I'm just like everybody to take amoment, no carrots. So how's

(02:53):
the show going now? When whatwhat's happening? Really? Well? Still
where I'm coming up to Scotland asmuch as possible to record with Bob.
We're trying at least once a monthand doing three or four records if possible.
We did. We did a coupleof records. Was it now two
weeks ago? Ali? You mightbe coming up in the next week or

(03:15):
two. But our issue is like, we'd love to do all of our
recordings live because actually we find itbetter in person much for the conversational aspect
of that. The problem is,by the time Ali and I have spent
two and a half hours in thepub recording a couple of episodes, the
third episode is just nonsense. It'sjust hammered by the end of it.

(03:38):
I've also started doing tiny twisteds andputting them out on Facebook as videos.
They've been They've been really good.Actually, I've really enjoyed them because I
don't have to do any work.Mainly they talk. They have a bit
of the same kind of feel asyour videos that you do Addam when you're
out and about so but Ali doesthem in the pub because it's on brand,

(03:59):
in it because I love a pint. Stopped doing it in spoonses.
Though I'm sad at you. I'llstart in once. Okay, let me
tell you about this evening. SoAlie's gonna talk to us about a subject
for ten minutes or so, andBob's going to talk to us about something.

(04:19):
Paul Mike. I'll mentioned a fewthings. Then we'll finish by about
in about fifty minutes. So Aliover to you. Yeah, why not.
I'd like to talk about a coupleof things which I think are systemic
of the growth in true crime recently. The growth in our industry has been

(04:42):
staggering. I think across the board. Over the past couple of years,
true crime podcasts alone from I thinkit was twenty twenty to twenty twenty two
saw like a sixty six percent increasein listeners to over twenty two million I
think it is now and televised documentariesI think show very similar growth. So
as more and more new podcasts appear, and as TV channel will scramble essentially

(05:09):
to create enough content to keep upwith demand, I was interested to know
if you guys thought as I do, that we're seeing a worrying increase in
the more sensationalist documentaries and podcast contentand a decrease in the quality and the
extent of research in a lot ofthem. Fucking hell, Ali, I'll

(05:39):
cap it with you because we hada brief chat earlier, Like I said,
brief, a couple of minutes reallyon the phone, and I think
our takeaways from just our rechat waslike, more content is good if it's
done well. Now, I knowyou guys think probably think along the same
lines. If you know one factwrong in a show, devalues it entirely.
I think it's fair to say.I think my issue with it is

(06:02):
when it's presented as like perfection andit's absolute dog shit. I think the
the trade off for production values whereI really struggle. Yeah, I think
I think with especially with podcasts aswell, there's I think this is something
that we've all noticed, especially duringLockdown, that a lot of people jumped

(06:27):
on the true crime bandwragging because theybecause they wanted to be famous and if
you know, that was their focus. They wanted to make money, and
they a lot weren't really into truecrimes. So you're right, there's been
a real dearth of kind of qualityresearch. A lot of people just want
to use Wikipedia and and unfortunately youcan see that with TV shows where they
get they make a lot of mistakes. And I was talking to a producer

(06:51):
recently about TV shows, true crime, TV shows, and they tend not
to be written by do you like, if you get history show, it'll
be written by professor such and suchwho's an expert on royalty or stuff like
that. True crime doesn't have that. It tends to be written by the
company who makes it, who goyeah, oh well that's popular. Oh

(07:12):
great, we've got a commission.Well we'll write it, which is why
they make mistakes. So it's noregulation, no, And I think I
think people seem to think that ifyou put it out on tell you that,
a team of people sit down andthey go, right, okay,
let's go through all your research anddouble check that it's right. But it's
not because because they've got a scheduleto reach to, they've just got to

(07:33):
get it out. They've got toget it done. They want to make
the money, and they want tofuck off. Yeah. And I think
you mentioned briefly they're the fame gameas well, and I think that's that's
even worse in a lot of ways. I remember the start of last year
the Nicola Beauley case where she fellon the river and her family were inundated

(07:56):
with people bothering them, and theyweren't through crime podcasters, they were TikTokers
and conspiracy theorists. And properties inthe town were broken into by people who
were pertaining to be investigative journalists,but they were just social media influencers looking
for clicks. I think I wonderif we're going to get to the point

(08:20):
where the police will turn up ata scene and the scene will be ruined
by podcasters TikTokers trying to get theirfootage. I think we're not too far
away from that. That must bea nightmare feet like you, Bob being
like, given that you're a properjournalists, there must be a real kind

(08:41):
of counterbalance of you and your ethicsand what you're trained to do, and
that people who will just pull thoseinto an area to film something because they
want to get famous. Absolutely,I mean, you know, journalism,
and no matter what you think aboutmainstream media and journalism in the UK,
we're very lucky to have a verywell read, related decent press. You

(09:01):
can disagree with me as much asone, but I genuinely believe that and
there isn't a journalistic ethic that goeswith that as you say, so we
would never and immediately respond to somethingbecause you have to have that fact right
because once it's out there, aswe all know, once it's out there,
it's out there. The podcasting elementof that, and I'll use podcasting

(09:22):
because to be honest, I'm justgonna lump kind of YouTube, podcasting,
all that kind of content creation intointo into one umbrella term as you say,
because there's no regulation, there's noknockback. And you know those that
will name main unnamed. I've doneit before, but I'll not do it
again on your show. That eithertake other people's research or verbatim whether it's

(09:48):
right or wrong, and just spewit out. There is enough another entity
to this as well. The problembeing, I think, is that there
are people out there who do avery very good job who aren't trained journalists,
who aren't x police force. Sothe problem there falls is that if

(10:09):
you regulate it too much and makeit difficult for people who are good at
what they do but not experts atwhat they do. If that makes if
you see what I mean? Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense.
Yeah, that's what do you thinkabout this? Well? I prove m
to agree with all the points thatare being raised so far. I'll go
back to what Mike said about Ithink really that broadcasting. I can think

(10:37):
of a certain particular channel. Iwon't name it, but most of the
content is freatured on true crime,and it's a lot of it is absolutely
dog shit to quote well as well, I think. I think quite bizarrely
and sadly, as technology and timeand the availability of things like drones and

(10:58):
everything has gone on, and somecould be wonderful, it's gone too much
repetitive and vague. Compare and contrastsay a documentary that comes on a certain
channel now and crime Watch UK that'savailable on YouTube, and you think,
remember, crime Watch is concise tothe point memorable because it's all factorally correct.

(11:24):
Nothing's repeated in it. We shouldget the same drone shot after every
advert break, you'll get the samerecap of what's happened. You know.
They make an hour program into somethingabout fifteen minutes worth of content, really,
and I find that quite bizarre.I think makers get lazy because they

(11:46):
jump on this true crime bandwagon andwant to get something out there. Think
oh my god, everyone's going towatch it because they'll be talking about it
and tiktoking about it and all thisbollocks and no it's not. It's sensationalism.
A lot of it is. Yes, well, we used to see
a lot of that on Adam's Forum, where every so often you'd get someone

(12:07):
jump in and they'd go, Hi, I'm from a production company. We're
doing a documentary about Dennis Nilsen.Does anyone know anything about Dennis? And
you go, hang on, you'rethe researcher. You you should be way
ahead of this instead of going toa forum and asking random people for their
thoughts. It's just but as weknow, with a lot of these true

(12:28):
crime shows, the researchers will youdon't have true crime researchers. What you
have is researchers. So they mightwork on a history show, they might
work on a sports show, thatmight work on a cooking show, and
they'll jump between them. So there'sno experts out there, except very occasionally
when you get a curated true crimeseries. I was just about to say

(12:48):
that there are exceptions to this.Massively, there's stuff that is incredibly well
made and well documented. You thinkthe Emma Caldwell kiss is closed in Scotland,
you know, nineteen years without somebodybeing found guilty for it. The

(13:09):
documentary kind of interview that Sam Poling, who's a BBC mystic of journalist,
did, actually interviewing Ian Packer isincredible, Like it's one of the best
pieces of true crime journalism that's happenedin the last few while. In my
opinion, I'm very lucky to knowSam, But at the same time,
I think what she did was incredibleand you tie that in then again with

(13:31):
that I'm not Nicholas. The NicholasRossi podcast that came out last year,
Yeah, just so well done.It actually puts they will get the numbers
obviously because they're on big platforms andthey made by big production houses and stuff
like that. But actually the effortthat's gone into making these id TV series
or podcasts puts even those of usthat around this roundtable to shame, because

(13:56):
it's an insane amount of work tocreate episodes on one case, for instance,
and when done well, it's beautiful, it really is. But when
it's done badly, it's absolute nonsense. And as some and somebody have said
in the chat, how do youregulate that? You can't? It's it
literally costs nothing to start a podcast. We've all gone this, you know,

(14:18):
we've all got one of the Easeand a set of headphones. I
convinced Mike to buy some AirPods recentlychanged his life apparently, Oh my god,
they're amazing. But that's literally allyou need to create a podcast.
Then you go on somewhere like Speakeror acast or whoever it happens to be.
I won't, you know, notsiding with anyone, but do download
the Speaker app if you're gonna useto button, It's much better. Uh.

(14:41):
I also think the quality is goingto go down now as well,
now that people are starting to useAI to do their research. I'm not
sure. Yes, content quality,I would agree with sound production quality.
We can only go up and that'sthat's massively. And I'm sure Bething from
Seeing Red will not mind me quotingher saying that she feels like they recorded

(15:01):
their first episodes of a Potato.It's one of my favorite things she's ever
said. Research the research, Yeah, I was. I think Mike and
I and Ali had the pleasure ofmeeting up in London for a couple of
pints this week, I'm sure,and then a couple I wrote an episode

(15:22):
of Twisted Britain using chat ept andI say I wrote it. I didn't
tell Ali I was doing this,so I just basically wrote. I asked
it the question, can you writean episode of Twisted Britain and other than
the fact that it wrote the introcorrectly got Facebook and everything correct in the
intro called us Mary and Sally orsomething like that, so you know,
just got a weekend name got therebefore you. And it gave me the

(15:48):
case of the disappearance of Agatha Christie, which actually is very Twisted Britain.
It's right on brand for what wetalk about. It was like twelve hundred
words and it's actually know what itwas. It was a synopsis of the
case, giving a couple of factsin amongst the way. So what I
did was I took that and Iread that verbatim. But I also did

(16:10):
my own research and wrote my mynormal notes that I and did the episode.
But actually that was when was that? Ali? Was? That was
that the beginning of last year?But it was so close to being good.
It wasn't good, but it wasclose to being good that it's not
going to take much time. Imean, me just asking it that question
has made a better you know that, that's the ridiculous fact of it.

(16:33):
But people, you know, there'sit would be so easy to do a
you know, nine ninety nine amonth better platform than g G, GDP
or whatever and get a script everyweek and just sit here and read it.
That's that is probably the future.Well, Bob, that's nine names.
I'm quite happy to name names.So the plagiarism one is a crime
junkie, so number one in theUS. All the rest of it,

(16:56):
and if you do a search oncrime Junkie you'll see the scandal and they
refuse to take it all down.So AI might be a step forward for
them, but hey, they're makinga million pounds. But look, let's
not go there. Let's should wemove on, Bob, Let's move on
to what were you going to bringto the table today? Just a beer

(17:18):
usually, but no, I actuallywanted to talk a bit about the the
Ian, the Emma Caldwell murder case. It's just been happening in the UK.
It was nineteen years to bring IanPacker to justice. I don't want
to talk about him because why shouldanybody ever fucking talk about him? Anyway,
there will obviously be a podcast aboutit somewhere down the line, but

(17:41):
it's not for us to do.He was handed the second longest sentence in
Scottish corps. I think Adam couldprobably name the longest sentence. He's written
a book about the man. SoPacker got thirty six years, which is
because there's no whole life term inScotland. So when we're doing our research

(18:06):
for cases, we always have tobe very we have to remember whether we're
talking about Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland, because obous there's different
justice systems, and the Scottish justicesystem is inherently more different, i would
say than the other ones. SoI think probably what I'm asking is,
at what point do we think theprison system should be dealt with and should

(18:30):
we have a whole life term whennone of us around here believe that capital
punishment should be a thing. Butand then there's the third verdict in Scotland.
It's the not proven thing which they'rein the theory of talking about removing.
But to be fair, they havebeen talking about that for years and
years and years. I just kindof wanted to talk a bit about because

(18:52):
it's all that's always the end ofour podcast, isn't it the end of
the podcast is they go to jailwhen something happens or we don't know who
did it. You know that theculmination of pretty much everybody around this table's
cases are and then the court handsout whatever sentence and then just do you
feel like when you get to theend of the research with the cases you're
kind of doing it, you tendto feel more pissed off at what's handed
out more often than not. It'sprobably the easiest way of putting that interesting

(19:18):
question, Mike, what do youthink? Oh? Waffled a lot there
as well. I was half readinga text at the same from a family.
Does someone else talk? And thenI'll catch up professional podcaster right to

(19:42):
the heart. But also it's quitewarm in here. I've I've got the
fire on Ali. What do youthink I would I would agree with Bob.
And I'll also point out that althoughScotland don't have a statutory life sentence,
an entire life sentence, when someone'ssentenced to life with thirty seven years,

(20:04):
they will sort of a minimum ofthirty seven years. That was the
thirty six year sentence Bobs talking about. That is thirty six years before he'll
even be considered for parole. Soit is a very severe sentence. But
I always come at it from ahistorian's point of view. I tell the

(20:26):
story and I accept the judgment ofthe justice system at the time. I
never agree with punishment, for example, but unless it's a miscarriage of justice,
that person got the sentence appropriate tothe time period. We've talked about

(20:49):
this on an episode recently. Ican't remember if that episode's actually gone out,
but that was literally your words wereI don't in fact, no,
I think it's the episode that justwent out, the June and Avani case
that we just I covered recently.It's one of the only times I've ever
said, if you want to skipforward a bit to not hear what happened
to June, skip forward a minuteand a half now four year old girl
who was taken from a hospital andhorrible things happened to her. And it

(21:11):
was a man just who we fuckknows why he did it. I still
don't know why I did it,but he was sentenced to execution, and
it was your words were literally like, this is the only time I've gone,
yeah, fine, that's all right, And it was the most he
could have been given in the timeperiod, so it was the right but
now obviously you move on exactly.But there are exceptions to that as well.

(21:32):
I was at a fascinating top veryrecently by Professor Rose Wallace, a
historian in Dorchester, on the ElizabethMartha Brown case. She murdered her husband
in eighteen fifty something. I can'tremember the specific date, but she was
a serial domestic abuse victim and hewas an adulterous domestic abuser. But her

(22:00):
case was handled very poorly and verypoorly for very political care. She was
given the death sentence, it wascarried out, but it is considered one
of the biggest miscarriages of justice,and it was actually one of the cases
that led to the abolishment of capitalpunishment. Shame. Have you got a

(22:26):
view on this pot I have,Yeah, So Coulder all night talking about
life sentences and everything like that.Does it does it? Just does what
they get justify the crime that they'vedone. And I'm not an advocate for
capital punishment whatsoever. One mistake istoo many, and we all know the

(22:48):
examples in history of this. Nowfor people like say the Moors murderers or
Suckcliffe when he was alive that month. So I can't remember his name now,
who murdered that family of three lastyear. He's just been given a
whole life time of damien someplace nameis right now? Now, that's the

(23:10):
maximum sentence you yet whole life?Right? But is it in prison?
Say so, he'll be segregated fromthe rest of the prisoners, right,
he just has kind of the timeof the time of his life. Really,
you know, he will get morethan someone here on the streets and
everything like that. And I firmlybelieve myself they're doing life for something like

(23:33):
that. They should be told afterthey've been sentenced. At one point during
your sentence, it might be tomorrow, there might be six or seven years
down the line, but one daythat gate separating you from the other prisoners
will be left open and you willbe beaten to within an inch of your
life. We will save your life, we will heal you back, and

(23:53):
then that will start again. Andthey should always have that morbid fear is
it and happen tomorrow? Is itgoing to happen in the next half an
hour? You should live with thatevery waking moment of the day. That's
punishment. I believe see Mike,you back with us as the family is

(24:15):
everything okay in the family. Justcheck out they've just been sentenced to thirty
eight years. Yeah. It's reallyweird because I've been watching a lot of
court TV where they're sentencing people onvia their webcams, and it's this is
exactly like that. I kind offeel like Adam is the judging. He's
going to go for urinating in thestreet and having sex with the sheep.

(24:37):
I charge you to twenty pounds,hopefully just twenty pounds, not a month
in prison. Twenty pounds if youfine, Thank you. I've got that
somewhere. I'm doing all right.I'm doing all right. It's interesting you
bring you bring that up, actually, because Ally and I spoke earlier that
Ali had a couple of things thathe was possibly going to talk about.
The other one was based off aquestion that Ali asked about impartiality within and

(25:03):
clean scenes and too much information ofcrime scenes and things like that, can
you get such a thing as animpartial juror now, because it's literally because
of a twenty four hour rolling newscycle and Twitter and or sorry XX,
going to give it to you Facebook, you know, everything's there instantly.
So where we talk about, youknow, the eighteen seventies and they moved

(25:26):
the case from London to high Wickhamor whatever it happens to be so that
they can move out of the townwhere the perpetrator committed their crimes. And
that was enough to remove, youknow, creating partiality. Sorry, you
just don't. You just don't havethat anymore, you don't. I think
it's ridiculous nowadays. If I wason the jury, I promise you every

(25:48):
night I'll be home, I'll beon social media. I'll be looking at
the person responsible or a ques Ratherand everyone else. I'll look at the
other Jewy remembers, and I'll betrying to assess ye who might find guilty,
wouldn't you? In reality? Iwould. When I was foreman of
the jury, I had to bringit up to one of the jurors because
even though it had been mentioned toher, she was she was actually in

(26:10):
the jury room on her phone.I was like, I was like,
I had to be a bit ofa bell end, but you're not really
allowed to have your phone in.She was like she was because it was
an assault charge and the other guyhad already been tried, but we weren't
allowed to know the outcome and hewas actually found guilty. She was like,
I just want to know what happenedto him, and it's like you're
not allowed to do that. She'slike, I need to know, and

(26:30):
I was like, no, youneed to base the case on the evidence
we've been given right here. Butit's weird, isn't it. I think
it's only going to get worse.They're going to have to they're going to
have to put people into secure isolationfor the duration that they're in they're in
the jury room training making partial decisions. Mhm. Because these people are jurists

(26:55):
literally come off the streets. It'sjust it's literally members of the public.
Yeah. Well, there's an argumentin the moment going on in Scottish court
systems about judge led trials, completelyjudge led trial removing juries from sex crimes,
and you know a certain category ofcrimes. I'm sure it is just
sexual sexual violence, sexual crimes,and I don't know enough about it to

(27:17):
go into the details, but it'sto be tried as if tried, so
that you remove that inherent I hateyou because it's a sex crime. I
leave a professional to make that judgment. Well you say that, Bob,
but are they professional? So I'veknown about three judges in my life,
and I wish I hadn't. Okay, and they're so far removed from my

(27:41):
life they go on. If Iasked them what pegging was, they wouldn't
know what it was. They couldn'teven ask what they got no idea what
Pegg're not living on the same planetas us. That's my concern. What
is pegin adam like the wrong timeto Poppy has just and this is what
we're talking about. Hell Poppy,so Poppy. What's what's your opinion on

(28:06):
the death penalty? Is it goodor bad? But I wanted to know
what she thinks about the death penalty. No, you don't. She's a
terrorist. You don't want to.I bet she's like off with her head
straight away, bring back capital punishmentlike that. Yeah, she's she's probably
got like a noose outside ready tostream people up, jumping on the comments,

(28:30):
jumping on the comments that I cansee here two good points I've just
seen that. It's one from Catherine. He says there's a good argument for
professional jewelry and a yeah, it'sdone in different employed jurors for a full
year, and they'll give them twomonths training before they'll see a trial,

(28:52):
and they will pay them for thatfull year. I'd love it, wouldn't
you. I'll be there, wouldyou. Yeah. I've never been called
as a juror and I'd love to. But my issue is I'm a podcast
researcher, so like I'm instantly startingtaking notes. Yeah, but Bob,
ask yourself why that is you haven'tbeen called. There is a reason,
obviously, isn't it. Here's anotherway bouncing off that idea as well.

(29:18):
Given the fact that one of themost popular university degrees is law, and
we have more lawyers in the worldthan we actually need. When all these
people are going to university and learningto do law, why don't we make
them jurors. Why isn't that partof the three year university course in that
every couple of weeks they just dojurist service, they learn and their professionals

(29:38):
and you don't have to train them. Yeah, that's that's a good point.
It was such a good point thatAli fucked off. I don't know
what We're going to come on hereand change the world, And Ali just
blacked out Ali just exploded. Ifall the law students become jurors, what
all the krimnoledge of students do well, they go back to being unemployed,

(30:03):
all fat ex detectives with a bookto sell on a TV show, a
ship TV show. I've still gotone more crime con to do. Give
us a break, Come on,enjoy it, Bob. When's Crime Con
Scotland in April? Is it April? Yeah, don't advertise it. I'm

(30:27):
not going to. No, we'llbe there though, I'll advertise, but
no, Ali and I will bethere in Glasgow and we'll look forward to
seeing anyody who's coming along. Andhe's already on his way there. That's
where he's fucked off. He startedwalking to go to the bar. That's
what he's trying to do. Goodness, gracious, start a crowd funder.

(30:48):
So let's move on. Joey,you were going to bring something to the
table. Yes, So recently topicallyin the news having to catch an account
the other day that referenced the infamousMackay kidnapping. Sure you all know the
story that I'm going on about thatwhen the two brothers tried to kidnap the

(31:10):
then wife of Rupert Murdoch who's justengaged again, apparently at the age of
six hundred or whatever. I thinkwe know someone else who's that age as
well. Yeah, yeah, allwalmost Head, Yes we do. He's
got more engagements you average serial colorin prison, hasn't it. He's got

(31:32):
rings through him. So the Mackaycase pops up on the news the other
day. It's an infamous case.I'm sure you all know the case that
I'm going on by, don't you. Two brothers kidnapped who they thought was
the wife of then wife of RupertMurdoch, grabbed the deputy chairman's wife,
Muriel McKay. The body was neverfound. They were captured soon after,

(31:53):
and it's an infamous case. Nowone of the brothers is dead. The
other one was released one agoing deportedback to Trinidad and he is now working
with the mackay family to try andfind her body. And I was on
the kind of belief that he wasfed to pigs. And if that was

(32:15):
the case, do you think thereis any chance of them actually finding anything
or is it just is it mentionedon the news because of its infamy and
it's a pointless exercise. What doyou think what do you think? I

(32:35):
think myself personally after fifty five years, I don't think they'll find anything.
And it's not a it's around afarm, it's not a massive site in
the scale of Stay Saddleworth More whereKeith Bennett is buried. It's not a
massive scale to lok, I donot think they will find anything. I
wondered what your thoughts were, especiallyif it's like a more like as they

(33:00):
said with the Mores murderers, whenyou put a body in kind of like
Pete and things like that, itdegrades really fast. So the likelihood of
finding anything or anything that's serviceable asa piece of evidence after this amount of
time, it's just not going tobe credible, is it. And it's
interesting. We spoke recently Ali andI about a case that I can't remember

(33:23):
which one it was, but basicallyit was a cold case from the nineteen
twenties, and basically we came tothe conclusion that at some point, barring
a massive massive change in technology,a cold case has to become a frozen
case for lack of a better word. At some point they become unsolvable and

(33:45):
you know, and each case willhave a different tipping point. So yeah,
fifty five years you're talking about,Paul, that might be enough for
it to be well, there willnever get anything. But you know there
are other cases that it could be. It's something to take five or six
years, a body at sea orsome like that. I don't know.
I just pick things out of theair now. But that difference between cold
case and revisiting and giving a duediligence and drew purpose. Like them going

(34:10):
back to look at the farm isthe right thing to do in the back
of their heads. There's no waythey think they're going to find anything.
But the interest to me is atwhat point do you go a cold case
is now unsolvable, Like, thisis the point where we go, we
can't do it anymore. Well,it brings me on something else, sorry
to instruct him. It brings youon to something else that I wanted to

(34:31):
raise as well, which is thefact that I believe the team looking for
Madeline McCann I've just been awarded anotherone hundred thousand pounds to continue their investigation.
Thank god for that, because aswe all know that only one child
has ever gone missing. Ever,my point's exactly. My point is exactly

(34:53):
the other one or the other countlessmissing people you don't know, in the
same amount of money spent on thesearch for them. Yeah. Think of
all the well researched podcasts we've hadout of it. Ye're true. Actually,
that good point down there. BenBen Needham, God, I remember
that name from when I was atcollege. That's what's Ben Needen was nineteen

(35:14):
ninety still missing today. That's whatthirty yees thirty odd years ago. Yeah,
but Mike, there's all these greatex detectives who've had these great track
records of really having a Golden eight, aren't you, Adam bloody hell?
Yeah, we draft them into someof it. They could do well.
They could even have are about itbecause don't forget they're they're made of magic.

(35:37):
Because they solved all these serial killercases by themselves. There wasn't a
single police officer who actually did anywork. They did it themselves. So
there we go. I agree.They brought some of the biggest monsters in
Britain to justice, haven't they exactlyto death? It's gonna be a great

(35:57):
show. Fuck ally, we're notgoing to Glasgow anymore, brother, But
you know, you take that bitNeedhum case. That's the perfect example of
like thirty three years ago, isit now unsolvable? In fact, Madam
McCann is essentially unsolvable as well.We all, I think we would probably
agree without without the you know what'sthe I can't remember what's his name,

(36:19):
Christian the German suspect. Yeah,unless he turns in and goes, yeah,
okay, I did it. That'sthe only way this is going to
get solved because nobody else is evergoing to come forward, is it.
Yeah, So the digging of thereservoirs and the popping the holes in the
ground here and there, do youknow what, Yes, it should be
done. And I was joking whenI was obviously thank god they've got that

(36:40):
money, but actually, yes,these things should be done because it shouldn't
be closed until they go actually it'sclosed, and every snowstone should be left
unturned. Whatever you want to sayabout it, but there has to be
that point where you go, sorrylike that, you know, we are
more likely to solve knife climbing Wrexham. That money spent better there. It's

(37:08):
a shithole. All those shirts havingdaily by the time you pull up in
traffic traffic lights in rash and they'reon red. By the time they've gone
green, you have to join twogangs. It's just a man in a
Wu Tang shirt like I mean video, No, it's a really interesting one.

(37:35):
And but yeah, I think youalways keep looking until the point where
you can't look. But then that'sthat's a very flauaty answer. Okay,
So should should the place open theirfiles to the am slaves? There's some
amazing There's some dreadful ones with doublebarreled surnames, for example, but there's
some really good out there as well. What even how manage yourself a crime

(38:00):
for thirty years? Opinion your files? Let people do it. I suppose
the Don't Fuck with Cats is likethe perfect example of that, isn't it.
That's the Internet solved that. Oneof my favorite ever stories was Ali
going, I've just had a lovelychart with this woman. Apparently she's quite
famous. It was the woman fromDon't Fuck with Cats he was talking to.

(38:21):
But that's not the perfect if.She was lovely actually great trousers.
But that's that perfect example of amazurslus is solving. And that's the sensational
one. It's the one we allknow about because of Netflix. But I
suppose the danger with that is thereis no training. We go back to
you talking about the jurors and thingslike that, because none of those people
have training, you know, we'reThe training that we all have for podcasting

(38:45):
is by doing it with exception ofyou know, maybe having watched a couple
of YouTube videos about how pressure cordon a laptop or whatever it happens to
be, having recorded in person withAdam. I know, that's it.
Uh, it's a it's a Idon't know, it's a really dangerous one.

(39:07):
Give it up to an amateur.It's really it could go so wrong,
but then again, it could goright. You know. Also completely
to every TikToker and every social mediainfluencer out there. No fuck no,
I've been on TikTok. It's weird, man. I've thought for ages that
it should do it, but ithas to be regulated. Of course,

(39:30):
you can't give it to fucking truecrime, Potting Shed or anything to great
great show favorites, But you can'tgive it to something like that. What
you need to do is look ata show take, for example, plucking
out of the air, they walkthem on us. Right, it's a
it's a standard show, isn't it. It's up there with true crime here.

(39:52):
If Ben and Rosey decided that theywanted to look into cold cases like
that, I believe that like aretin agency should look at them and say,
right, Okay, they've been doingthis for X amount of years.
They've got that amount of episodes.The quality is fantastic due to the reviews.
Yeah, let's talk to them.Give them a tright is evidence to

(40:15):
them knowing that they won't abuse it. You know, you should do something
like that. Just why I thinkit's it's an interesting thing when you do
get access to court records and policefiles and stuff like that. When you
open it up, it's kind ofthere's a lot of information in there because
it's it's it's never been planned thatsomeone who's a podcast or a YouTube or

(40:37):
whatever a TV series is going toopen up these files and suddenly the amount
of information that's in there. Youcan understand why a lot of these files
or a lot of this information isheld for three generations sometimes because not only
do you have the immediate families ofthe victims and the perpetrators, but you've
got the next of kin. Thenyou've got the next of kin after that.

(40:59):
So there's definitely a kind of aa layer of which if people are
going to go that far, theydo need to be trained. And you're
absolutely right, it shouldn't just beopen to anyone because because you know,
we're good and decent people. Imean, some of us are not all
of us, uh, but andyou know we we like to approach things

(41:22):
in a very sensitive way. Butthere is a lot of people who just
won't give a ship and they willjust go for the sensational and they'll just
be like, Ah, that's thehouse where the killer lived. I have
to let everyone know where he lived, what his home number was, what
his trouser size was, what illdisabilities he had. It should it should
be tied up with some sort ofdisclaimer that you thoroughly have to sign saying

(41:45):
right, you cannot this, thatand the other, even like watermark crime
scene pictures or something, so youcan't repost them on Instagram or something like
that. They would soon who wasserious about wanting to help? Would I
mean you come back to what yousaid earlier, Mike about my my day

(42:07):
job outside of podcasting set. I'veset up my camera for those that don't
know I work because I have acameraan for a rather a large media organization,
and we've had to move Wheeley Binsout of the background of shot because
it's had painted house numbers on it, you know, identifiable things. And
those sort of processes go on inmy mind all the time because I can't.

(42:30):
That's the best shot I have,but the house numbers on that.
So you can't even though you're talkingabout people who probably know you can find
it on fucking Google maps or whateveryou want anyway, but there has to
be that level of integrity that goeswith it. And I actually integrity and
impartiality are the two words that Ialways think have to intertwine when you're talking
about because what we do as podcastersis journalism, whether we like it or

(42:51):
not, you know, foils outto me it falls under that category.
We're really researching and telling the storyand revisiting is pretty essentially journalism, really,
isn't it. If you can't dointreguosy and impartiality alongside that, yeah,
you don't make the new course tobe a amateur slut with avet or
whatever it happens to be. Youknow. Does that take us back to

(43:12):
where we were last week in theconversation where we were talking about true crime
and the difference between, as yousay, journalism and entertainment. Where's the
border, where's the boundary? Wheredo we sit saturly? It's very blurred,
it is I agree with the entirely, Bob. I consume true crime
for entertainment, and I'm very awareand I'm consuming it. It's the worst

(43:37):
of someone's life. What do youthink, Kenny, I agree, I'm
very aware of even of the historictales that Bob and I tell. One
of the reasons we don't cover wesee crimes within living memory is that we
don't want to upset anybody ever anda litigation and litigation true, But even

(44:00):
in some of the stories that wetell from history, we're and I think
we've become more and more as weprogressed as podcasters, will become more and
more victim aware. Even in theway we tell our stories. We'll try
wherever we can use the surnames ofperpetrators and the first names of victims because

(44:27):
it humanizes the victim. And quiteoften I just use an adjective, yeah,
yeah. Very recently, we haven'treleased it yet, but I covered
the Teacut Poisoner, and I wrotethree episodes on it without mentioning his name,
apart from once at the very veryvery end. Mm hmm. He's
got a lot of time when it'shands these days, exactly. But it's

(44:51):
really interesting because you mentioned this lasttime we were talking about people using the
word ripper that we just don't likeat all. No, no, not
all, any kind of sensational withripper something like that. You know.
It's yeah, you don't need toI understand it sells papers, but and
it does draw people's attention. Howmany to add? And as you're going

(45:15):
back to what you said about entertainmentand journalism, how often do you see
memes that have pictures of someone lyingawake? And it says me trying to
sleep listening to a sleep podcast andunderneath sleeping Patilly, me listening to true
crime. Yeah? They common,aren't they? You know, it's what
people do. It's I'm sure we'veall been told that people go to sleep

(45:37):
listening to us. It's because that'swhen people have got time on their hands,
isn't it down sometimes and listen tosomething like that. Yeah, And
actually I think you touched on itslightly there, Poul. But like,
if you want to talk about journalismand entertainment, it didn't start with podcasting.
There are newspapers out there that rhymewith the the bun or you know,

(46:01):
similar red red headlines. Shall wesay red red fronted newspapers. That
is journalistic entertainment, that's not that'snot journalism. Well I think Bob to
say the Sun isn't journalism, Itis absolutely right. So I think it
was your Jory Lineland. I toldyou litigation is not for us, Adam,

(46:22):
you crack on me. We've gotwe've got fifteen minutes left, Okay,
guys, So a few questions.Is Adam's hair real? Yeah?
I've got a number of spare scalpsI can wear. It's good. He's
moving, that's it. Yeah?How much that's that? Is a pool
crime award? I don't know whatthis person is talking about. Who would

(46:43):
pay hundreds of pounds just to benominated for awards that that can't exist,
right, It must be somebody takingthe mickey right, that's bonkers. If
you could offer us an Gorden Jobyaward, I'm paying for it. And
the third question we've got here,what podcasts are you listening to, Bob?

(47:04):
What do you listen to? So, I actually don't listen to a
lot of true crime. The oneI would say the most I listened to
true crime wise is I love Lastpodcast on the Left, and I always
have done. I think they areexcellent. I think Marcus Parks is a
wonderful, wonderful podcaster. No matterwhat you think about what's happened with Ben
recently is beside the point, butit's my go to for true crime.
Actually used to listen to a lotof true crime garage and things like that,

(47:28):
but currently, and I've said this, Ali and I have talked about
this a few times, I actuallyjust like the sound of a human voice
telling a story. I don't listento much music, so I listened to
things like just Binge, the entireYoung Again series by Kirsty Young where she's
interviewing people because I think she's justan incredible podcaster. I listened to This
Is Love with the Phoebe judge thatdoes This is Criminal. Her This is

(47:52):
Love series is one and it's weird. When you're just walking up to the
pub or something, I suddenly realizedI'm crying about somebody else's life that I've
never fucking met before you go tothe menopause or something. I don't know,
you know, I tend to listento story tell like people's lives,
people's stories, rather than I getenough of two kind bloody researching it for

(48:13):
the podcast. So I'm always theworst person one when somebody says, oh,
what true crime should I listen to? Her? Matt the true crime
enthusiast, Murder, Marlon Uk,the rest of us, and the recommendations
to our audience that they should belistening to except for hours. Like Bob,
I listened to very few but Men'srea Is. She makes wonderful,

(48:37):
fabulous. She would make my amateurSluice list, by the way, she
would definitely make my list alongside Benand Rosie. Yeah yeah, but you,
Mike, do you listen to much? He's got a nice frising thinking
about it. No, No,like like jumping on the bandwagon. There

(48:59):
it sounds like it not. Ilistened to very little true crime myself,
as Bob. Like we said before, I get enough of it through writ
researching, writing, producing my ownshow. So sometimes I like to switch
off and embracing the massive nerd inme, which I found absolutely fantastic.
I listened to an internet most that'swhen I got asleep. I listened to

(49:20):
an internet radio site that plays twentyfour to seven or nineteen forties Philock Holmes
episodes that Sick Bath Bum and NigelBruce The Artless World. Send me a
link as well. Yeah, absolutelybrilliant. Really do you know what I
do? Listen to you True Crime? I mean we were all at Crime

(49:42):
Con when Nicola Talent was there forCrime World, and I knew nothing about
Dublin gangsters and drug pushers and allthe rest of it. But I listened
to her relentlessly I think. Imean, she was great, wasn't she?
And her podcast I think is amazing. The other one I listened to

(50:04):
is that I listened to because ofsomebody I met at Grime Corn was The
Troubles. Yeah she just that's whata what a voice that man has,
My goodness, but just wonderfully toldthem. But listen, deliberately listen to
that because it's not something I knewa huge amount about and would happily point

(50:24):
somebody in his direction if if theywere looking for something on Irish history.
It's just he has a niche there, It doesn't it. He really does,
absolutely, and it's something that wecertainly wouldn't touch as a topic.
You know that we have a veryunwritten list of topics we'll never touch because
we either can't or shouldn't, youknow, depending on how you look at

(50:45):
it. And that's definitely on there. But he's done it justice and has
the ability to do so because heis Irish and he lived there. And
you know that's fine. I thinkthat is something you can't really cover unless
you have a direct connection to it. I agree with you. There's a
few of them actually, you know, you name the big Yeah, we

(51:07):
could probably all quite happily name massiveevents that have happened in British history,
never mind in the last twenty yearsor whatever that we would all go not
for us, thank you very much. Nothing to offer, nothing to add.
That's really it's a really Brillian Ithink him doing the troubles is a
really brave decision and I off mycap to him for doing it. But

(51:27):
he's done it very well. Now, one hundred percent agree. I mean
I've covered a few and I justget so much abees, I've not done
it for a long time that we'vegot ten minutes to go. There's one
thing I would like to ask youropinions on. So Chris Caba, the
Met Police guy who's been named theperson who made the Met Police officer accused

(51:50):
of murder over a fatal shooting ofChris Cover has been named. What do
you think about this? Should hebe named? Ali? What do you
think? I think he probably shouldhave been named. Yeah. I think
we need more transparency now more thanever in what the police do and in

(52:13):
how they conduct themselves. And Ithink if they're going to gain back a
lot of the trust that they've lostover the past decade because of a variety
of incidents, that they need tobe more transparent than the general public.
And if it was a member ofthe public, they would have been named.
He's a murderer, Yeah, youknow, and that Boll has done

(52:36):
to exactly what Ali says, thetrust and human in the British policing and
the Met right through to Police Scotlandis that it's in the gutters. It
really is because of horrible things thathave been incredibly well covered and I outed
in the press. The police knowthis, like the police themselves know this.

(52:59):
I was on a course at theMetropolitan Police College this week about public
order. They know that as frontline facing officers they're in the shit at
the moment, but the only wayto get out of that is by doing
things like here's the badge and bythe way, here he is. This
is not all of us. Iremember conducting an interview with Srien Stalin that

(53:22):
used to be the head of PLICEScotland at tully Allen, which is the
police college here in Scotland, andhe was making a ridiculous statement that said
police Scotland is institutionally racist, butmy officers aren't, and I went fuck
off, mate. Institutional racism hasto come from someone. You can't just
say the bricks and mortar around meis racist. It is your officers that

(53:45):
are that are creating that issue.Now. The problem with that is if
they don't out them like they havedone with them Martin, something wasn't I
can't remember the kiss name. Ifthey don't out them and distance themselves from
that will never change. Even thoughit's changing internally, it needs to change
in human perception because if we're beingpoliced by consent, which is the way

(54:06):
police have policing, happens in thiscountry. It always has done. You
have to you have to have trust, and I don't know what I'm looking
for. You have to you haveto really believe in what they're doing.
To have policing by consents as ageneral rule a great poor What do you
think, well, I wonder doyou think this decision to name this officer

(54:31):
comes because, like Ali said,they need to be more transparent than ever
right now. And it so happensto have come the same week that this
inquiry about Wayne Cousen's and why hewas a serving police officer when he was
accused of rape before he even appliedto be an officer many years ago.

(54:53):
Do you think that's the met say, look, okay, yeah, we
can afford to cover anything like thisup. Again. We are in the
shit. This is the start ofthem coming back and being honest and making
the changes that need to be oris it just to kind of deflect more

(55:15):
flack of them. I wonder ifit really is the start of something better.
I don't know. Not convinced.I hope so too, but I'm
not convinced. It's that tricky moment, though, isn't it is whether we
agree with them doing it or notis besides the point. The purpose of

(55:36):
doing it, I would presume,is to do exactly what you say,
is to distance themselves from these individuals, rather than saying the police force and
no, it's not the police force, it's him, him specifically, and
that makes a massive difference. Ifthey can individually weed them out, then
that makes the institution itself much cleanerand better. But by going it's not

(56:00):
the it's not out. You know, ninety nine point of the people who
cut become police officers do it forthe right reason and that's that's that goes
without saying. And we and youknow, we all believe that. But
it takes one to fuck it allup, doesn't it. And by them
going here's the one that's trying tofuck it all up in our news reports

(56:21):
and our statements, Please don't judgethe rest of my officers, depending on
who it is whatever for Please don'tjudge everybody here they are trying to do
and make this country. I mean, we're bloody lucky to live in this
country and have a very good policeforce. That means we don't have to
worry about going outside other than thered lights and Wrexham obviously obsolutely. It's

(56:43):
but that has to come alongside thembeing transparent. Transparency, I think is
when it boils down to, isn'tit. Yeah, as Ali said before,
if anyone else apart from a policeofficer would be named, and he's
still a human being at the endof the day, more so he should
be named. Yeah, Mike,welcome back. By the way, it's

(57:05):
nice to have you back again.I can almost hear you. I get
it. This is I know thisis going to be an old reference,
but this is like having a conversationwith Norman Collier. Yeah, he did
the routine for how many bloody years? What? What? What's your view

(57:29):
on this time? What's your Yeah, it's it's it's it's a hard one.
There's always going to be it doesn'tmatter what industry you're in, there's
always going to be rotten apples inthe barrel. They're always going to be
there. Is it worth naming him? I don't know. It's that's kind

(57:50):
of a tough one, isn't it. I don't know. I'm still unsure.
But but to kind of penalize,as Bob says, to kind of
penalize the whole force based on afew bad people, I think is kind
of wrong, especially if you lookat every other industry. There's going to
be assholes everywhere. There's going tobe people who take the piss. If
you look at like CEOs of majorcompanies, how many of them are absolute

(58:15):
ship bags who are getting away withstuff every single day. And the reason
we don't know about that is becausethey've got the money to protect themselves.
Whereas a bog standard copper they're justgoing to be thrown under the bus.
Which is not to say they don'tdeserve to be thrown under the bus,
but is to say the reason thatwe're getting angry and upset and rightfully upset
about it, is because we knowthey're going to be held or held in

(58:38):
higher regard. Though should they notbe held in hs because of what they
do as a public servant? Yeah, absolutely, especially as you know as
a taxpayer we are funding them.So yeah, yeah. I think I
think people generally do accept that,you know, of the police are good

(58:59):
people do it for the right reasons, and it is a couple of bad
apples spoiling it for everyone. ButI think a lot of the public have
lost confidence in the prosecute within theirown industry, and I think because of
that they have to step up theirgame and almost be more zealous and more

(59:21):
transparent and more open with their internalaffairs. I mean, I think it's
an impossible job. If I wasadvising any of my children, I'll be
saying, do not join the police. You can't win. Yeah, yeah,
Which is a real shame, isn'tit, Because as we know from
crime con there are some great xpolice people about it in amazing jobs.

(59:44):
You do, wonderful this evening rightnow. There we were doing it for
the right reasons, so we werealmost finished. So we've got one couple
of its left. Two pub quizquestions that I've started for the weekend here.
The Metropolitan Police Force is the largestin the UK. Do you know

(01:00:06):
what the second largest police force inthe UK is, please, Scotland West
Mesia. I mean it's one ofthe vulture ones. Alistair got it correct.
There are thirty two thousand serving policeofficers in the METS, sixteen and
a half thousand in Police Scotland usedto be greater Manchester was the biggest,
but since they merged the forces inScotland, so that was a fiddle.

(01:00:29):
You told Alie before we started.Yeah, I think I want him to
win. You're having a fucking laugh. Is the second question? How many
of them mets? How many ofthose in the metal Wronglands? Oh yeah,
it's ninety nine percent. The otherone, which I would assume Adam
will get, is what is whoreceived the longest prison sentence from a Scottish

(01:00:51):
court? Think of the best crimebook you've ever read? Guys, I
was gonna let you plug it andthen they're ald shit. I believe he
went fishing? Is that is that? I think? So? Yeah?
In a van it's angers Sinkler gotthirty seven years and I was actually genuinely
surprised when Packer didn't get more.But it was two of them are up

(01:01:15):
there. There you go. Ijust started writing a very short true crime
round for next week's pub quiz.So there's the two that I've done so
far. And is that this atthe cetle Ing Bob? Is that where
you're run the quest? Yeah?Once a month I do it, so
Ali and I recorded in the Settling. It's the oldest pub in Sterling.
It was opened in the sixteen thirtyseventeen thirty three. Sorry, so we're
having its three hundredth birthday in acouple of years time, and we're actually

(01:01:37):
we joke about the place where weadore it. We're very honored that they
let us. They never organize anythingon a Tuesday night so that Ali and
I can sit up the back andhave the old cunts down the bottom,
so I'm allowed to say that herethey're all playing dominoes while Ali and I
are recording a podcast, and weneed no bones about it. It's a
pub. Were recording a pub.If you don't like background music, jog

(01:01:59):
on. There's loads of poncasts,but it's a it's a place that's close
to my heart. Adam, you'vebeen then, you know you know how
cool the pub it is. AndI host the Pub Quaz once a month,
and I'm actually going to the PubQuesz straight after this. But i
am I'm not hosting this evening.I'm partaking wonderful so guys over and over

(01:02:20):
an hour and it's felt like minutes, hasn't It's been so much fun.
I'm sure the audience agree with us. Yeah, I mean they might have
dropped off and on this calls.Just any final comments at the end of
this evening. Thanks a million forhaving us. And although I talked to

(01:02:45):
begin with about the sensationalist content andthe worrying lack of research and that I
think is a trend, there isalso some fantastic stuff being done and I
think that some of them do deservea little mention. And the Channel four
documentary on the killing of ouisa AnWar by her husband on Arthur's seat is

(01:03:14):
amazing. The entire trial is recordedand it is a fascinating watch. I
had the pleasure of interviewing I hada pleasure of interviewing family measures members of
that on that case. And yeah, it's it's wild, Bob. Anything
else like to share about audience Beforewe leave this evening, I'd like just

(01:03:37):
like to leave you with a thankyou, love you by as always John
Brand. Very good for me.Yeah, it's like to say happy Mom's
Day to all those moms aren't there. And if your mom's not with us,
we're all saving spare thoughts for you. And if you're a single dad,

(01:03:57):
I hope you've got flowers. Yeah, yeah, Mike, And thanks
for add this is This has beenthe only moment in the last ten minutes
that I've actually been able to hearso this is the end. That's not
a bad thing. I've enjoyed theending, thank you very much. Is

(01:04:18):
that your usual life is not whatyou were saying that minutes. I'm done
and now I'm out. Okay,So thank you so much everyony for taking
the time to sure this this evening. This has been Bob, Alie,
Paul, Mike, and me Adam. It's been great fun. See you

(01:04:39):
next time. Cheer you now.Guys, never