May 3, 2024 • 47 mins
At CrimeCon in Glasgow this year Bob had the pleasure of sitting down and hosting a live intervioew with none other than The Captain from True Crime Garage, We talk everything from Jonbenet Ramsey to important questions like is the captain drunk!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:34):
Hello and welcome to this special episodeof Twisted Britain. In this episode,
I get the chance to interview theCaptain from True Crime Garage as part of
one of the live sessions at CrimeCorning, Glasgow this year. Genuine pleasure
to have done so and I hopeyou enjoy what we're about to talk about.
Good evening, everybody, Good evening. Thank you for the small amount
(00:57):
of view that have stayed for theevening session. I hope you've all had
a good day. I had theopportunity to catch a few of the speeches
and the talks and stuff, andit's been a it's been a really good
day. I've really enjoyed it.It was a bunch of shit. It
was a bunch of shit. Butwe'll get to him in just a moment.
(01:18):
So I for those you who don'tknow who I am, I'm Bob.
I'm one half of Twisted Britain.My co host was the one with
a hat on All Day you recognizein Ali. We've record a podcast in
a pub, which is a reallystupid idea, but we continue to do
it and it's on kind of truecrime history. So if you want to
check it out, please do ifyou have already, thanks very much,
that's good. I have the genuinepleasure this evening of having a chat and
(01:41):
an interview and getting to introduce aman who I listened to his podcast way
before I became a podcaster. TrueCrime Garage was one of my favorite podcasts
before I started doing it, andI had the genuine pleasure of meeting the
captain. Not yet Nick, butone day, one day, I won't
get a chance to meet Nick.But he's a AI. He's AI.
That's it. So I get thegenuine pleasure of introducing the captain this evening.
(02:12):
How are you? When is thisstaying on? When I was in
college studying jazz, we had aprofessor that every time he finished his song,
he would stand up and go andthe crowd would go nuts. And
so every time I get on stage, I think of him, and I
(02:32):
come on, try again, onemore, one more time. We have
a ceasa. We brought you abo I know it is genuinely an absolute
pleasure to see it. You willno, No. I took a nap
and I woke up and I couldn'tget warm, so I had to take
(02:53):
like a hot shower and then likedry heaving and do you need me to
sit closer and cuddle with you?Yeah? I just I think it's because
we made out earlier. Yeah,let's we'll get onto that. But I've
actually got a few questions about thatmyself later on. But don't worry about
that. Why did you grab methere where on the doll? Did you
touch me? Now? Now?It was never that earlier. If you're
(03:22):
the captain tonight, can I canI be admiral? Yeah? Or you
could be captain and I'll do it. You know, love love, keep
us together. I mean I couldhave stopped you already, but that was
beautiful. Why would I stop that? So I've got some questions I've written
down that I'm going to ask you, But this is genuinely an interactive session
(03:45):
because those of you that are quitefar back feel free to move forward.
I know there's a speaker system andship like that, but it's nice to
see people. If you've got aquestion, stick your hand up and I'll
run out. I've got a microphonehere, we can we can ask questions
as we go. Let's just makethis. I've got some written doubt,
but we'll start. I'll tell youwhat on you go well, and real
quick, I just want to sayI'm friends with Nancy. Everybody knows Nancy.
(04:08):
And Nancy called me and said,hey, you're going to be in
the UK, why not come dothis event? And I said, whatever,
you want, anything for you.You're amazing and you guys are amazing,
but let's give a round. Theapplause for Nancy was that you were
happy to do anything until you foundout that it was me and you on
(04:30):
the stage. I go, I'mdown, and they go, well,
Bob's going to be there. I'mlike, can I get out of this?
Make him sign the papers before youtell him. That's the thing.
So you've been podcasting for a whilenow, yeah, twenty and fifteen two,
So you must be one of thelike I hate the phrase og,
but you know what I mean.You must be one of the original podcasters.
(04:54):
Yeah, why podcasting? Well,so back in the day, you
used to have to download the podcastto your computer and then you'd have to
take the file and put it onyour iPod. And that's why they called
it a podcast because it had togo on your iPod. And so I
(05:15):
was traveling three or four nights aweek playing music gigs and the last thing,
after three or four hours of playingmusic, the last thing you want
to do is pop on, youknow, some tune, you know.
So I started listening to Coast toCoast in America, which was all about
like Bigfoot and ghost and murder,and I just thought, this show is
(05:41):
amazing. And so then I wasat I was at a Thanksgiving and my
cousin's husband lived in New York,and he's like, have you ever heard
of a podcast? That's how Ilistened to music. And I went,
I don't even know what a podcastis. So I I google searched what
(06:01):
is a podcast? And it's cameout with that Adam Kroller show. And
so I was like, okay,I'm going to download this. And but
so four or five days a week, I'm traveling, you know, four
or five hours a day, andthey became my friend. You know.
Does that make any sense? Ithink. I think everybody here who listens
(06:25):
to podcast can relate to the factthat the voice in your ear can become
more than familiar. It becomes apart of your team. And that was
a part of your day. AndI certainly, as I said, alluded
to before I'd listened to you andNick for years before we started the podcast
originally, and she got in itin it earlier, Yeah, you could
be interviewing me at that point.Then it wantn't go well. But I
(06:48):
remember meeting you in Why didn't Iremember meeting you in London the first time
at Crime Con and instantly recognizing yourvoice before I recognized your face. Because
it's that that comfort, earwarm thatyou've had on car Johnnys, or cleaning
or going to sleep or however youchoose to consume your podcast. But there's
something really inherently meaningful about a voice. Yeah, And like I said,
(07:15):
and then I was with a ladyand we were married, and I was
helping raise her kids, and wemoved away from my family, so I
had no friends, and all daylong I'd listened to these podcasts, and
then she'd come home and I'd say, Adam said this today, or Adam
said that. I remember her saying, he doesn't know who you are.
He's not your friend. I'm like, hey, it might be a one
(07:39):
way conversation, but we're fucking friends. You can always get it. You
can't always meet the people you listento. Well, sometimes you can't know.
But the thing is so then Nickstarted listening to shows and he'd say,
Hey, you should check out thisepisode of Whoever. And this is
a point that I'll probably make milliontimes tonight. When podcasts started, there
(08:03):
was no ad agencies. There waslittle ad agencies, if there was one.
So I remember our show comes out. I think we hit like thirty
second in the world. I'm like, we got the thirty second biggest podcast
in the world. But I couldn'teven pay for groceries. So I'm like,
(08:31):
Nick, we're thirty second in theworld. He's like, that's amazing.
And I was like, I gotto get a job, and Nick's
like, you can't. We're ontosomething. So he would like give me.
He'd let me borrow money so Icould get groceries, and I get
groceries, and then when I playeda gig, i'd pay him back.
But I remember thinking like, howthe heck are we going to make a
(08:52):
living? And what they're doing withpodcasts, and what they've been doing since
we started, is they keep comingup with these rules and regulations on how
they count down those and so you'regoing to see a big shift in the
next couple of years where some ofthe shows that you've listened to from the
beginning, start going away, Andif you haven't noticed, in the last
(09:16):
six months to a year, alot of these podcasters are promoting Patreon and
their subscription because the money from advertisingisn't coming in like it was. But
here's the fucked up thing. It'sonly if you're not on a network.
If you're on a network and they'vecome to us and say, hey,
why don't you team up with thisnetwork or why don't you team up with
(09:39):
this network, and we're like,no, we're an independent podcast. We
don't want somebody to tell us whatto do. And so I do think
when podcasts first started, it wasreally listener supported, going to events,
buying T shirts. Like people don'tunderstand, Like some people think our show
is huge, but it's like Thursdaynight, I am rolling your T shirt
(10:01):
and putting in a bag and shippingit out. You know. So you've
kind of talked a bit about whyyou started podcasting, and true crime is
as we know, it's a verysaturated marketplace for podcasts. Those of you
now now that wasn't so why chooseit when you did? Like why did
(10:22):
you go down the true crime route? Well, I mean I think multiple
reasons, but Nick kept talking aboutthis project. And for people that don't
know, Nick's my brother and he'smy older brother. That's why he doesn't
listen to me on the podcast.And every time we get in a fight,
(10:46):
he always mentions, I'm funnier thanyou, and I'm like, but
not on the show, on theshow, on the funny one. But
I think that's also like, whenyou're in a room with somebody being super
serious, it's hard to match thatlevel of seriousness. So it turned into,
wow, you're very serious, I'mgoing to be not serious. So
(11:11):
when you're doing the podcast and I'vedone this stuffinitely don't but let me finish
your so. But here's the thing, though, is like, so next,
like, I got this project.And one of the things I've learned
about Nick, which I think isa really amazing quality, is he won't
talk. He'll tell you he's workingon something, he just won't tell you
what it is. He didn't tellme about the book he wrote until it
(11:35):
was coming out. He's like,and it was like, I think the
book's coming out in two weeks andI like, look it up online.
I'm like, no, the book'sout now, thanks for telling me,
but he believes that a lot ofpeople go one day, I'm going to
start a podcast. One day,I'm going to start a YouTube channel,
(11:56):
and we call that someday A'll likean island and you're on someday aisle and
someday you'll do something. But mostpeople never get off that island. And
so he just we're sitting around drinkingbeer in his garage, like he said,
I think we should do a podcast, and I was like, yes,
(12:18):
what are we going to talk about? And he's like, I have
it all true crime and from thebeginning, he's like, I'm going to
be Nick, but you're going tobe somebody else. And he's like,
I'm gonna I have this intro.I'm going to say, you know,
welcome to whatever we're called, andthen I'm going to do a little joke
about you every time, and thenI'm going to end in the show be
(12:41):
good, be kind, and don'tletter. He had it all like mapped
on in his head and then Iand the truth is, there was no
talk about releasing it. It waslike, let's just record it to see
if we could because I was anaudio engineer. Yeah, So the first
couple episodes like he would get upin the the episode and like go to
(13:01):
the refrigerator and grab a beer,and you'd hear him like walk away from
the mic and he'd still he'd belike talking like this, and but it
was just it was fascinating to methat he had it all worked out in
his head and what people don't understand. So my father is a detective,
but my brother, since we're likein kindergarten, like it was part of
(13:22):
his identity that people are like,your brother's really smart and he knows a
lot about crime. And you've gotother brothers though, right, yeah,
yeah, they're not as far.I always wonder if he's like mad at
us. Yeah, we didn't invitehim. He's like the fourth handsend brother,
you know. Oh yeah, yeah, not as handsome, not quite.
(13:43):
He wasn't allowed to sing. Hegot off. Yeah, they bopped
him away. It's interesting, yousee, because you wore an audio engineer,
and that's a way into starting it. When we started Twisted, but
it was with my previous co hostand Natini before Alistair joined it, and
I did it to learn sound andediting. Yeah, like from almost the
(14:05):
other side because in my pre podcastingmind and I would imagine he's probably had
thoughts yourself. It's easy. Yourecord it and then you cut the bits
that you don't want out and you'vebeen them and you fling it on the
internet and hundreds of thousands of peoplelisten and you make millions of millions of
dollars. All of that's horseshit,like and it I mean, the work
(14:30):
that goes to podcast is mental.Yeah. So if you listen to like
an hour long episode and it's agood editor, they probably spent three hours
on editing and putting together the show. And there ours is a little different
because we do music every week thatgoes along with the episode. And we've
been doing the show seven hundred andfifty some episodes, and some people have
(14:52):
no clue that every episode I've creatednew music for and so on the internet
there's like hundreds of of these tracksthat I've made for our show, and
most of the listeners are like,oh, you did that. I just
thought it was shitty music. It'swonderful music. I think we're like six
episodes in and like the music suckedin the beginning, I didn't know what
(15:13):
I was doing. I was alwaysdoing it last minute and so then eventually
I was taking it serious. Butwe had a lady one time send us
a thing that said, I loveyour podcast, but the music is embarrassing.
So anytime somebody will come up andsay I love the music of your
show, Nick will go, yeah, it's embarrassing. Never listened to the
(15:35):
negative reviews. So when we weren'tout that I'd be doing this interview with
you, I thought, you knowwhat, I'm going to google the Captain.
Let's see when it comes up,and you guys will know yourself.
You google something and you get alist of suggested questions on Google. So
I just googled the Captain, trueCrime garage, previous interviews to see who
(16:00):
I was stacking up against, andthen instantly stopped treading all that when I
realized that the top question that Googlesuggests when you put your name in is
is the Captain drunk? No?And so if you listen to the show
enough. I dealt with like severedepression for a long time. So when
(16:23):
we'd start the show, Nick waslike, I have this idea that we're
gonna pair a beer normally, likeyou know, if the crime took place
in Seattle, we're gonna have aSeattle beer and I was like, but
I don't drink, and so he'slike, well, that's fine, you
don't have to. Like, theaudience only knows what you know. So
(16:44):
then if I say a bunch ofdumb shit and then the comments are like,
he must be drunk. But it'slike, I can't. I can't.
I can't drink once a week.Or I'm like, get very close
to jumping off the bridge, andthat's not a good thing without needs.
If you do do that, wellyou send me the notes of your thoughts
beforehand. It's just no I wantedto jump off a bridge, dear Bob.
(17:12):
So you've done about seven and fiftyodd episodes, Yeah, we reckon
plus bonus episodes, bonus episodes inamongst them. Is there a case that
sticks in your mind? All ofthem? Well, not all of them,
but there's I call them red lightcases. There are cases that you
can't get out of your head on. One of mine is does people know
(17:33):
the West Memphis three case? SoI know a lot of people are very
opinionated on whether they're guilty or they'reinnocent, And in that case, for
the most part, I think they'reinnocent. But there's little things about like
at the start of the second documentary, he says, it's gonna be cool
(17:55):
now because people are gonna think insteadof the Boogeyman being under the they're going
to be looking for me. Andthat's pretty cool. And you're like,
wait a second. If you're innocentof the crime, that's not something you
should be proud of. And sothere's little things like that in that case
that bother me. So I canstop at a red light and go that
bothers me, and then by thenext red light go, oh, that's
(18:19):
fine, he's innocent. So WestMemphis three to the point where I'm not
allowed to look it up on YouTubeanymore at night because I've gone down some
crazy rabbit holes. I mean,I would love to debate that case with
people, like people that think they'reinnocent, because I could like keep bringing
up stuff that you would be like, wait, that doesn't make Like,
(18:41):
for example, they just won thisthe right to test items. Did you
know that they created the list ofitems they want to test and that they've
left off items well, the othertwo are not involved. Yeah, And
(19:03):
then also like at the trial,they brought up the fact that he was
possibly into Alistair Crowley. Does anybodyknow who Alistair Crowley had a house on
Lochness and all that far from well. Alistair Crowley like he was a cult
and he he actually he was anasshole, super big asshole. But he
(19:26):
bought a house on loch Ness tolook for NeSSI and only bought the house
because he thought it had magical powers. But he believed that if you killed
a child that you would basically becomelike a god on earth. And the
age of that child was a eightyear old child. The three victims were
(19:47):
eight years old in that case,So that's kind of weird that it lines
up. And then the guy getsout of prison after he omitted that the
state had enough evidence to convict him, after he said weird shit, and
then he makes poses on Instagram thesame poses that Aleister Crowley used to make.
(20:10):
And to me, that's insensitive tothe victims' families. That's insensitive to
the people that supported him in prison. And we're not talking about like,
oh, well, it's just apose that everybody makes. No, these
are poses that were made famous bythis guy that is telling that told the
whole world if you kill an eightyear old child, that you'll become a
god on earth. And so Idon't know why he does these things because
(20:33):
I think it's very and but youcan be a big asshole and not and
not be a murderer. So butthat one bothers me. The John bin
a Ramsey case bothers me. Hasanybody heard about the teddy bear John Binn
at Ramsey? So there's all thecrime scene photos and you can see them
(20:56):
online. And in her bedroom shehad two beds, and on one of
the beds, the one that shewasn't asleep on on was a teddy bear.
And when they were asking the parentsto look through the photos to see
if anything's stuck out, both ofthe parents said, we don't know where
this bear came from. And sowhen you have a six year old girl
(21:18):
telling everybody for weeks Santa Claus isgoing to visit me after Christmas and bring
me a gift and an item showsup in your house that you don't know
where it came from, I thinkthat's pretty fucking weird. So that has
always bothered me. And there usedto be an explanation for it online.
(21:40):
There was a website called Candy Rosethat was all about it. But that
whole section about the Teddy Bear isgone, doesn't exist anymore, and so
stuff like that that, like Iwalk around my house and just ponder this
shit, or like missing persons BrianShaeffer or mar Murray or any of these,
like I just yeah, how itis? Yeah, I do.
(22:00):
Yeah. Absolutely, We've got casesthat we've covered just a Putton no no
no, obviously slightly smaller platform thatI hate, an unfinished case. It's
one of those things that just boresin my mind. Ali does it deliberately
every now and again writes one that'scompletely unsolved, because he knows that I'm
going to be pissed off for threeor four days afterwards. We had a
(22:22):
discussion recently interested this is not writtendown, but just a s what's fascinating
to me is analytically, our showdoes better when it's a solve case.
Is that right, because like that'swhy people like Dateline. It starts off,
there's a mystery, and at theend we tell you what happens.
But the problem is those families aren'treaching out to us. So when when
(22:48):
a kid was murdered and they haveno leads and they're reaching out to you
and going, hey, can youjust please talk about this case? Can
you please make my son matter?And you want to let them know your
son mattered. Period, It doesn'tmatter if he's talked about on a podcast
or not, you know what Imean? Yeah, but you know as
(23:08):
well as I know. It's likewe've done cases on like an unsolved case
and then get the detective reaches outand says, hey, we got some
leads because of your show, andone of the club'st cases got solved,
and the detective didn't want to admitit, but he's like, I think
it kind of ended directly was becauseof you guys, And we're like,
(23:30):
oh, awesome, cool, youknow, but yeah, but see if
I did what Nick did, Ibragged about it. Nick, my brother
has a group called the Project PorchLight, and they pay for DNA testing
on crimes that they have DNA.But what's crazy is could you imagine if
(23:52):
your loved one was raped and murderedand the department was saying, we have
their DNA, but we just don'thave the money to run the test.
So Nick started this group called Projectport Flight, and the first case that
they went after, the organization didn'thave any money and he wrote like a
(24:12):
six thousand dollars check to get thetest done, and then it was a
random stranger and they went and arrestedhim. And now he's sitting behind bars
and You're like, you fucking solveda case. I'd be like telling everybody
about it, Like he doesn't talkabout that shit at all, and I'm
like, and it's mad because thetop Google question for you is the captain
(24:32):
drunk. Yeah, and he's solvingcrime and he's solving crime. No.
The best though, is I wasat a bar in my hometown. None
of us are surprised. Yeah.I was at this bar and this guy
runs in and he goes, hey, man, your brother is a guy
from high school. He's like,your brother does true crime garage. Man,
(24:56):
that's fucking awesome. He's like,man, did you just write a
book? And I'm like yes,and he's like did he solve that murder
up in Cleveland? And I'm like, I don't know how you know all
this shit? And then and thenwhen he goes to leave, he said,
hey, hang in there, man, And I was like, does
he not know that I'm on theshow, But which one of you is
(25:19):
in crime? Clown Glasgow? Yeah? That's right, right, say that,
Nick. Yeah, So just kindof leading off what you're talking about
that. Ali and I had adiscussion recently about cold cases, and obviously
most jurisdictions of the police forces keepcases opening almost indefinitely in case the league
(25:45):
comes up, like you're talking about. We had a discussion recently about when
does a cold case go from thepoint of cold we might find something to
I think we used the term frozencase, like there must be a point
when we were talking about like historicallythere must be a point in years,
yeah, or or depending on lackof evidence, because I mean, look,
(26:07):
if you have no evidence five yearsinto no evidence, you go,
WHOA where do we gotta go on? I mean, what's great is my
dad. My dad was a detectiveand we're probably doing the show for like
two or three years. And thenmy dad was like, Hey, I
heard you guys have a podcast oncrime. I didn't know you guys were
(26:29):
into that. And I was like, Nick has been into it since he's
like a baby. I think Iasked my dad what a podcast was,
try and turn his more demo.Yeah. No, my dad is a
very interesting person. My parents gotdivorced and it was just me and my
father, and I played in theorchestra and jazz band and all this stuff.
And I remember saying to my dad, Hey, we got to go
(26:52):
to the school to pick up mytopesedo nice for jazz band, and you
guys, you're playing jazz band.And this is like six years of playing
in jazz and I was like,yeah, I played in jazz band.
And so then my dad goes,are you gay? And then it was
it was a joke in his mind. So I just was like, oh,
that was a joke. So weget in the car, but he
(27:15):
felt so bad about the joke thatthe whole ride to the school, he's
like, well, it was justa joke. But see, guys I
went to school with that were inthe jazz band. They were gay.
But what did you play in jazzbands? Nice? Man, You've traveled
most of Ohio? Have you notdo it playing bass in buns? I
read that most of the US.I've read some reviews of your should yeah
(27:41):
for a long time, which Idon't know how it happened. I played.
I was in the band with Nickyeah, because he made me just
like the yeah, yeah. No. The funny thing was I was learning
bass. I was like really biginto the sign. I think you guys
caught Yeah, And I was areally good goalie and my brother played bass,
(28:07):
and so I just like practice basson the side. And I remember
one day I'm like in the basementpractice in my bass, and Nick came
downstairs and was like, get upstairs. You're in the band. I don't
look cool singing and playing bass atthe same time. Do you remember Airheads?
Yeah? Man, that was likeour big influence. Like we had
(28:30):
a song that basically sounded like theAirhead song one. If we ever do
this again, can we have afour of you in that band here?
That was with me in the ninetiesup as well. But I'd love Morgan
Morgan, my buddy Morgan. Hehe used to go to our gigs just
to make fun of us. Thatdoesn't even surprise, but yeah, And
(28:53):
so okay, we've probably got timefor one more question from me and then
we'll ask if anybody else has gotit. So the only other question I
was gonna have for you is,have you ever come across a case that
you would just decided it that youwouldn't cover? Where's the where's the bar?
Boulger what's his name, the littleboy that was a kid, Jami,
(29:17):
Yeah, Jamie. When I firstheard about the case, I went,
oh my god, we got tocover this. And I told Nick
about it, and like I said, Nick, Nick was the expert.
Like when we started the show,it was like, well, nixt to
the expert. And then it's alsoa weird thing to like eventually, like
at first, okay, so thefirst couple of episodes, I was like
(29:37):
trying to be a part of theshow, and then I got so many
like nasty emails, and this oneguy was so set on me like hanging
myself. He would like send likean email like twice a day. I'm
sorry for sending them. Yeah,but it was insane because it was like
I think it was like our ninthepisode and I just told Nick, I
(29:59):
have two many like mental issues.There's demons there, yeah, and I'm
like, I don't want to dothis and then get this negative feedback and
so there's like if you listen tothose like I don't know. It was
like episode nine to ten around there, like I just start not talking and
I'm just like trying to record him. And then eventually Nick was like,
I can't do this without you.So it's a really fucking weird world to
(30:22):
be like one. You got totake a step step back to your brother
because he's the talented one and andsupport. I mean, that's this is
his dream. I don't want totalk about murders. And does anybody know
the mar Murray case? So Ilove this audience. You can literally ask
anything like yeah, yeah, ofcourse I did. Mar Murray wanting a
(30:45):
fucking book on it. Mar Murraywas this student that she told her school
that she had this emergency, familyemergency, but she never told her family
there was no emergency, and shetook off in a direction that was not
home, and she got on thiswreck and somebody stopped to help her,
(31:07):
and by the time he called thecops, it's only like a seven minute
window. And when the cops showedup, she was gone. And a
lot of people thought that maybe herboyfriend was involved somehow. And so one
day on Twitter, I get amessage from the guy's name is Bill Rausch
and he grew up like a coupleof miles from me, and actually I
(31:30):
think we played against each other insome kind of sporting competition when we're kids.
And he's like Hey, I wouldlove to talk to you about the
case. And I'm going people thinkyou're the murderer. Hell yeah, I'll
talk to you on the phone.And we talked for eight and a half
hours the first day, just paceand I paced when I'm on the phone.
So I'm just pacing and pacing eightand a half hours because I was
(31:52):
convinced, like he wouldn't shut thefuck up, and I'm like, I'm
convinced I can get him to say. I mean, he was saying some
like really bad ship and I waslike, ah, you know, like
because he was he was accused ofall these assaults and stuff, and he
was like basically confiding in me,like I did this crime, and I
did this crime, and I'm I'mgoing to play guilty and it's got it's
(32:16):
got traits of one of the Sothe second longest prison sentence in Scottish history
was handed out about a month ago. I'm sure all of you here will
know the M. A. Caldwellstory. I won't say his name.
I refused to. In my dayjob of outside of podcasting, I'm I'm
a I work for a large mediacorporation filming like ABC, but slightly different
(32:45):
and I had the horror of goinginto the Glasgow Share of Court while he
was being tried. Recently swimming withone of our correspondents, a guy by
the name of Dave Cowen, whois a wonderful, wonderful journalist, and
just sitting watching somebody who had putthemselves up for interview on the television to
(33:06):
say this is a mad case.It's that level of absolute sociopath that comes
from the same sort of thing whereit he's happy to talk to you because
he's singing his own praises, butit's not me. And there's that level
of removal from the human psyche thatreally baffles me about some people that we
(33:27):
talk about well, and I thinksome of these cases where you have these
if you have a lot of evidenceagainst somebody and they're like, no,
I'm innocent, some of me wondersbecause there are cases that people have killed
somebody and they don't remember it.So if they don't remember it, then
are they guilty of doing it becausethey don't really aren't doing it? Yes,
you know, I mean obviously they'reguilty of doing it. Yeah.
(33:51):
Well, what I'm saying is ifyou start trying to trip them up they
don't actually believe that they do anything. So, you know, I don't
know's it's a captain. We haveabout five minutes left. I think,
Oh, that went fast. Sowe've just sat here and thought, except
for some people in the audience arelike, they didn't go fast at all,
Bory And is there anything that Aligrab that? Yeah? Is there
(34:16):
anything in the audience that would liketo ask a question of the captain or
myself? I mean, Ali downhere, Oh no, we'll come to
you next emotion. Yeah, Andsome of them, like the case of
(34:44):
Anthony case really bothers me because Idon't think we should call it true crime.
I don't. I don't think that'sthe correct title for the genre.
It should be called what we thinkwe know so far. And it's just
like if you look at that case, nobody has ever told you the right
story of how that kid died andhow they died was the mom was going
(35:07):
out to bars and she was basicallydrugging her daughter and putting her daughter in
the trunk. And anybody that hasgone to college or university knows that,
Like have you ever gone on adate and you have like leftovers, like
leftover food and you put in yourcar, and then you went out drinking,
(35:28):
and then you came back to yourcar the next day and it's hot,
and you know, that's what fuckinghappened. The kid died from in
Florida heat. The kid would diewithin five minutes in that trunk. And
so if she's five minutes late fromwaking up, and obviously if she's going
out getting drunk at some point,she's not going to wake up on time.
(35:49):
And that's what happened, and thatchild died in that trunk. And
what's sad is there's been a milliondocumentaries and nobody, nobody has ever said
that's how, that's how that happened, and and that's how that happened.
That's I'm one hundred percent. SoI think from my from my side,
the ones that we come because it'sslightly more historical. We never nothing ever
(36:10):
sticks from me because I would tendto not talk about something that I'm uncomfortable
with. The things that always stickwith me that I always go and they
sink in my head is when there'sbig, a big change in society or
change in policing that's come from sucha horrific event. So we cover Aliy
and I covered the case of Juneand Devani recently, who was a three
year old girl who was in hospitalwho was kidnapped from the hospital by a
(36:35):
guy who blamed drink which is notan excuse, and sexually assaulted her and
then killed her in the grounds ofthe hospital. But what happened after that
was a mass finger printing of aboutsixty thousand males in the surrounding area,
and it basically changed placing, changedthe way. They're the things that stick
with me, probably because I'm Idon't like reading about the still like I
(36:57):
couldn't do the job in a case. It just I've got nothing to add
to it. And also I can'tread all that stuff like it. Here's
what bothers me the most. Andlike I said, I think it shouldn't
be called true crime, it shouldbe called what we think we know so
far. And that first started happeningwith Brian Schaeffer as a kid that went
into a bar and he's on videogoing into a bar, and he's not
(37:20):
really on video coming out of thebar, and he was drunk out of
his fucking mind. But his dad, when people were looking for him,
was like my son wasn't drunk,and he was, and then these girls
hit it. They flirted with him, and he exchanged numbers with them,
and he was then in the mediagoing, my son had a girlfriend,
(37:43):
he was going to get engaged,which was not true. And he was
trying to say that these girls werewhoores and they were drunk sluts and my
son never would have gave them hisnumber, and so he was narrative.
He was trying to control this story. And just like West Memphis three.
So these are the things that botheredme the most is when you hear the
(38:05):
story of these three boys were murderedand they just went after these three teenage
boys because they listened to Metallica,and you go, that's not true.
He was. He even admitted hewas getting disability from the state, and
he put on the reason why hewanted disability was he said he was homicidal
and suicidal. And it's like ifhe's telling law enforcement they did. They
(38:30):
didn't just show up at his houseand go, what Metallica CD do you
like, well kill them all you'rearrested. There was a reason why they
were looking at him. Good tune, you know, we are pretty much
it can be a five minutes now, is that right? Just to wrap
up? Yeah, and oh mygod, good night, Malone mccairn.
(39:09):
I'm gonna I'm gonna go out thereand say from the start and you can,
you can have your moment in it. I'm not fucking touching it on
so many levels. I we talkedearlier in one of the first It talks.
Steve Keele said this morning that thehardest thing to do is remove yourself
(39:30):
from a case as a police officer. As a podcaster, it's not quite
as important as removing yourself from acase as a police officer, but you
have to be able to do it. If you're going to produce something that
is tangible, factual, and readyfor an audience, you can't have a
really inherent opinion. And for thatreason, Ali and I are out.
(39:55):
Wait, thank you very much.Wait, I don't want five percent of
your company. I'm are you sayingthat you we just wouldn't touch it.
You think as a podcast you're notallowed to have an opinion. No,
that's not what I'm saying at all. We will come back to your question.
Sorry, that's not what I'm saying. You can have opinion, and
of course part of what people listento is your opinion and the way that
(40:16):
you've scripted it, in the waythat you've written it, in the way
you tell it. But I thinkif you've got an inherent signed that you
take, that's a different matter.If you can't balance that by telling the
story properly. Right, No,But see that's where I differ, because
I think with the freedom of speech, if somebody feels strongly that the parent
(40:40):
parents are guilty of their parents areinnocent, that's that's for them to tell
the story. I mean, like, that's kind of what I mean,
though, I'm here to tell youin my opinion. I'm here to tell
you the story and let you makeyour own decision, right. I don't
want to force my opinion unless I'vehad three or four pints, then I
might, you know, No,we always try to tell the story,
and then if there's time we liketo say, well we think maybe this
(41:04):
happened, or maybe we would wantthis question answered. We covered that case.
The thing that sucked was for whateverreason, I kept on Connor McCann
and so for I was like andI couldn't stop doing it, and so
I eventually just had to say,like we just got to keep recording because
I so for two hours, I'msaying the victim's name is wrong, which
(41:25):
is very disrespectful. And I knewI was doing I couldn't fix it,
but that one is so tough becausethe parents. But there's some dark shit
in there, and and there's aguy that they befriended the family, and
he's connected to the Pedestos in America, which are like known pedophile ring and
(41:47):
it gets really dark. And what'ssad is they don't want you talking about
that stuff. Like I've been sayingit from the beginning. There's certain things
that we covered this track episode calledBoys on the Tracks, and these two
(42:07):
boys were murdered. They try tomake it look like they just got drunk
and fell asleep on the train tracks, but there was bullet holes in them.
And then there was like ten eyewitnessesthat were murdered, and so it
got so dark, and it wasall connected to Bill Clinton. And the
more we dove into it, themore I was like, I don't want
(42:29):
to talk about this because somebody mightshow up at my door and get rid
of me. So we've gone waydeeper than I thought we were gonna go.
No, so hold on. Here'swhat I like to do though.
Every now and then I'd just liketo tell my phone I love the government,
but you've got fucking microphone plumped inthe mine. I'm pumped the mode.
(42:51):
I love the government and you doeverything for me. Yeah, please
don't kill me. Move here.I was gonna say, move here.
It is better. It's not fuckthat. Ladies, gentlemen, we have
Oh I tell you, I tellyou what we do. One more?
Come on, one more, onemore. You asked for that. The
(43:14):
problem is that Stephen Avery is sucha piece of shit, you know.
And yeah, the first thing thatyou have to think about is is somebody
capable of committing the crime. Ireally think that her boyfriend, her ex
boyfriend, should have been looked atmore. There's a scene where he is
(43:36):
talking to the search party and thegulps in his mouth, you know,
because he's so nervous. It's juststrange, like he's acting so strange.
And again a lot of these casesare not that hard to solve. It's
like it's normally somebody close to thevictim, and obviously he would have motive
(43:58):
because they weren't together, you know, But is that a quick one.
Yeah, how do I think we'vecalled that? Nick does all the work?
Nick does No. Actually, whenwe first started, it was just
like, oh, I think thisone's interesting, we should talk about it,
which kind of sucks because we talkedabout some of the big cases early
(44:21):
on and I'd like to revisit them. We're actually going to revisit the West
Memphis three case a little bit andtalk about what we've learned from them.
I mean a lot of people don'tknow that there was like seven or eight
eyewitnesses that recanted their statement and nevertestified against them in trial, and they're
they're omitting that these people confessed thenthey crimed, and I think that would
(44:44):
have changed the way. If youwatch a documentary and you have ten people
on the stand saying that these peopleconfess that they killed these kids, you're
probably not making a second documentary abouttheir innocence. So, but now what
we do, it's just there's twothere's actually two ways. We've actually had
(45:05):
a lot of law enforcement reach outto us and they will just tell us
we are stuck, and here's thecase file, and all, by the
way, we never gave you thecase file. And so if we say
oh, we've talked to law lawenforcement. We've really talked to law enforcement,
which is great because they're they're doingeverything in their power to try to
(45:29):
get people to talk about the case. Because if if people stop talking about
the case, it goes away,and and then and there and every law
enforcement has a limited budget, rightso once it goes away, then those
people are forgotten. And then andon that note, to wrap up,
(45:50):
I'll answer your question. I googlethree random words. One's a place,
one's a crime, and one's anonsense word, and I see what comes
up on Google. That's how Ifind mine. Ladies and gentlemen, Thank
you very much for listeners. Thankyou. I've had a blast. Thank
(46:13):
you very much for listening to ourlive recording from Crime Gume. I hope
you enjoyed it. It was greatfun talking to the Captain and hopefully we'll
be doing so again. We'll leaveyou as I always do with me.
Thank you, love you, bye, thank you few, bye you yourself,
call you bye. Mmoo woo woot
Hello and welcome to this special episodeof Twisted Britain. In this episode,
I get the chance to interview theCaptain from True Crime Garage as part of
one of the live sessions at CrimeCorning, Glasgow this year. Genuine pleasure
to have done so and I hopeyou enjoy what we're about to talk about.
Good evening, everybody, Good evening. Thank you for the small amount
(00:57):
of view that have stayed for theevening session. I hope you've all had
a good day. I had theopportunity to catch a few of the speeches
and the talks and stuff, andit's been a it's been a really good
day. I've really enjoyed it.It was a bunch of shit. It
was a bunch of shit. Butwe'll get to him in just a moment.
(01:18):
So I for those you who don'tknow who I am, I'm Bob.
I'm one half of Twisted Britain.My co host was the one with
a hat on All Day you recognizein Ali. We've record a podcast in
a pub, which is a reallystupid idea, but we continue to do
it and it's on kind of truecrime history. So if you want to
check it out, please do ifyou have already, thanks very much,
that's good. I have the genuinepleasure this evening of having a chat and
(01:41):
an interview and getting to introduce aman who I listened to his podcast way
before I became a podcaster. TrueCrime Garage was one of my favorite podcasts
before I started doing it, andI had the genuine pleasure of meeting the
captain. Not yet Nick, butone day, one day, I won't
get a chance to meet Nick.But he's a AI. He's AI.
That's it. So I get thegenuine pleasure of introducing the captain this evening.
(02:12):
How are you? When is thisstaying on? When I was in
college studying jazz, we had aprofessor that every time he finished his song,
he would stand up and go andthe crowd would go nuts. And
so every time I get on stage, I think of him, and I
(02:32):
come on, try again, onemore, one more time. We have
a ceasa. We brought you abo I know it is genuinely an absolute
pleasure to see it. You willno, No. I took a nap
and I woke up and I couldn'tget warm, so I had to take
(02:53):
like a hot shower and then likedry heaving and do you need me to
sit closer and cuddle with you?Yeah? I just I think it's because
we made out earlier. Yeah,let's we'll get onto that. But I've
actually got a few questions about thatmyself later on. But don't worry about
that. Why did you grab methere where on the doll? Did you
touch me? Now? Now?It was never that earlier. If you're
(03:22):
the captain tonight, can I canI be admiral? Yeah? Or you
could be captain and I'll do it. You know, love love, keep
us together. I mean I couldhave stopped you already, but that was
beautiful. Why would I stop that? So I've got some questions I've written
down that I'm going to ask you, But this is genuinely an interactive session
(03:45):
because those of you that are quitefar back feel free to move forward.
I know there's a speaker system andship like that, but it's nice to
see people. If you've got aquestion, stick your hand up and I'll
run out. I've got a microphonehere, we can we can ask questions
as we go. Let's just makethis. I've got some written doubt,
but we'll start. I'll tell youwhat on you go well, and real
quick, I just want to sayI'm friends with Nancy. Everybody knows Nancy.
(04:08):
And Nancy called me and said,hey, you're going to be in
the UK, why not come dothis event? And I said, whatever,
you want, anything for you.You're amazing and you guys are amazing,
but let's give a round. Theapplause for Nancy was that you were
happy to do anything until you foundout that it was me and you on
(04:30):
the stage. I go, I'mdown, and they go, well,
Bob's going to be there. I'mlike, can I get out of this?
Make him sign the papers before youtell him. That's the thing.
So you've been podcasting for a whilenow, yeah, twenty and fifteen two,
So you must be one of thelike I hate the phrase og,
but you know what I mean.You must be one of the original podcasters.
(04:54):
Yeah, why podcasting? Well,so back in the day, you
used to have to download the podcastto your computer and then you'd have to
take the file and put it onyour iPod. And that's why they called
it a podcast because it had togo on your iPod. And so I
(05:15):
was traveling three or four nights aweek playing music gigs and the last thing,
after three or four hours of playingmusic, the last thing you want
to do is pop on, youknow, some tune, you know.
So I started listening to Coast toCoast in America, which was all about
like Bigfoot and ghost and murder,and I just thought, this show is
(05:41):
amazing. And so then I wasat I was at a Thanksgiving and my
cousin's husband lived in New York,and he's like, have you ever heard
of a podcast? That's how Ilistened to music. And I went,
I don't even know what a podcastis. So I I google searched what
(06:01):
is a podcast? And it's cameout with that Adam Kroller show. And
so I was like, okay,I'm going to download this. And but
so four or five days a week, I'm traveling, you know, four
or five hours a day, andthey became my friend. You know.
Does that make any sense? Ithink. I think everybody here who listens
(06:25):
to podcast can relate to the factthat the voice in your ear can become
more than familiar. It becomes apart of your team. And that was
a part of your day. AndI certainly, as I said, alluded
to before I'd listened to you andNick for years before we started the podcast
originally, and she got in itin it earlier, Yeah, you could
be interviewing me at that point.Then it wantn't go well. But I
(06:48):
remember meeting you in Why didn't Iremember meeting you in London the first time
at Crime Con and instantly recognizing yourvoice before I recognized your face. Because
it's that that comfort, earwarm thatyou've had on car Johnnys, or cleaning
or going to sleep or however youchoose to consume your podcast. But there's
something really inherently meaningful about a voice. Yeah, And like I said,
(07:15):
and then I was with a ladyand we were married, and I was
helping raise her kids, and wemoved away from my family, so I
had no friends, and all daylong I'd listened to these podcasts, and
then she'd come home and I'd say, Adam said this today, or Adam
said that. I remember her saying, he doesn't know who you are.
He's not your friend. I'm like, hey, it might be a one
(07:39):
way conversation, but we're fucking friends. You can always get it. You
can't always meet the people you listento. Well, sometimes you can't know.
But the thing is so then Nickstarted listening to shows and he'd say,
Hey, you should check out thisepisode of Whoever. And this is
a point that I'll probably make milliontimes tonight. When podcasts started, there
(08:03):
was no ad agencies. There waslittle ad agencies, if there was one.
So I remember our show comes out. I think we hit like thirty
second in the world. I'm like, we got the thirty second biggest podcast
in the world. But I couldn'teven pay for groceries. So I'm like,
(08:31):
Nick, we're thirty second in theworld. He's like, that's amazing.
And I was like, I gotto get a job, and Nick's
like, you can't. We're ontosomething. So he would like give me.
He'd let me borrow money so Icould get groceries, and I get
groceries, and then when I playeda gig, i'd pay him back.
But I remember thinking like, howthe heck are we going to make a
(08:52):
living? And what they're doing withpodcasts, and what they've been doing since
we started, is they keep comingup with these rules and regulations on how
they count down those and so you'regoing to see a big shift in the
next couple of years where some ofthe shows that you've listened to from the
beginning, start going away, Andif you haven't noticed, in the last
(09:16):
six months to a year, alot of these podcasters are promoting Patreon and
their subscription because the money from advertisingisn't coming in like it was. But
here's the fucked up thing. It'sonly if you're not on a network.
If you're on a network and they'vecome to us and say, hey,
why don't you team up with thisnetwork or why don't you team up with
(09:39):
this network, and we're like,no, we're an independent podcast. We
don't want somebody to tell us whatto do. And so I do think
when podcasts first started, it wasreally listener supported, going to events,
buying T shirts. Like people don'tunderstand, Like some people think our show
is huge, but it's like Thursdaynight, I am rolling your T shirt
(10:01):
and putting in a bag and shippingit out. You know. So you've
kind of talked a bit about whyyou started podcasting, and true crime is
as we know, it's a verysaturated marketplace for podcasts. Those of you
now now that wasn't so why chooseit when you did? Like why did
(10:22):
you go down the true crime route? Well, I mean I think multiple
reasons, but Nick kept talking aboutthis project. And for people that don't
know, Nick's my brother and he'smy older brother. That's why he doesn't
listen to me on the podcast.And every time we get in a fight,
(10:46):
he always mentions, I'm funnier thanyou, and I'm like, but
not on the show, on theshow, on the funny one. But
I think that's also like, whenyou're in a room with somebody being super
serious, it's hard to match thatlevel of seriousness. So it turned into,
wow, you're very serious, I'mgoing to be not serious. So
(11:11):
when you're doing the podcast and I'vedone this stuffinitely don't but let me finish
your so. But here's the thing, though, is like, so next,
like, I got this project.And one of the things I've learned
about Nick, which I think isa really amazing quality, is he won't
talk. He'll tell you he's workingon something, he just won't tell you
what it is. He didn't tellme about the book he wrote until it
(11:35):
was coming out. He's like,and it was like, I think the
book's coming out in two weeks andI like, look it up online.
I'm like, no, the book'sout now, thanks for telling me,
but he believes that a lot ofpeople go one day, I'm going to
start a podcast. One day,I'm going to start a YouTube channel,
(11:56):
and we call that someday A'll likean island and you're on someday aisle and
someday you'll do something. But mostpeople never get off that island. And
so he just we're sitting around drinkingbeer in his garage, like he said,
I think we should do a podcast, and I was like, yes,
(12:18):
what are we going to talk about? And he's like, I have
it all true crime and from thebeginning, he's like, I'm going to
be Nick, but you're going tobe somebody else. And he's like,
I'm gonna I have this intro.I'm going to say, you know,
welcome to whatever we're called, andthen I'm going to do a little joke
about you every time, and thenI'm going to end in the show be
(12:41):
good, be kind, and don'tletter. He had it all like mapped
on in his head and then Iand the truth is, there was no
talk about releasing it. It waslike, let's just record it to see
if we could because I was anaudio engineer. Yeah, So the first
couple episodes like he would get upin the the episode and like go to
(13:01):
the refrigerator and grab a beer,and you'd hear him like walk away from
the mic and he'd still he'd belike talking like this, and but it
was just it was fascinating to methat he had it all worked out in
his head and what people don't understand. So my father is a detective,
but my brother, since we're likein kindergarten, like it was part of
(13:22):
his identity that people are like,your brother's really smart and he knows a
lot about crime. And you've gotother brothers though, right, yeah,
yeah, they're not as far.I always wonder if he's like mad at
us. Yeah, we didn't invitehim. He's like the fourth handsend brother,
you know. Oh yeah, yeah, not as handsome, not quite.
(13:43):
He wasn't allowed to sing. Hegot off. Yeah, they bopped
him away. It's interesting, yousee, because you wore an audio engineer,
and that's a way into starting it. When we started Twisted, but
it was with my previous co hostand Natini before Alistair joined it, and
I did it to learn sound andediting. Yeah, like from almost the
(14:05):
other side because in my pre podcastingmind and I would imagine he's probably had
thoughts yourself. It's easy. Yourecord it and then you cut the bits
that you don't want out and you'vebeen them and you fling it on the
internet and hundreds of thousands of peoplelisten and you make millions of millions of
dollars. All of that's horseshit,like and it I mean, the work
(14:30):
that goes to podcast is mental.Yeah. So if you listen to like
an hour long episode and it's agood editor, they probably spent three hours
on editing and putting together the show. And there ours is a little different
because we do music every week thatgoes along with the episode. And we've
been doing the show seven hundred andfifty some episodes, and some people have
(14:52):
no clue that every episode I've creatednew music for and so on the internet
there's like hundreds of of these tracksthat I've made for our show, and
most of the listeners are like,oh, you did that. I just
thought it was shitty music. It'swonderful music. I think we're like six
episodes in and like the music suckedin the beginning, I didn't know what
(15:13):
I was doing. I was alwaysdoing it last minute and so then eventually
I was taking it serious. Butwe had a lady one time send us
a thing that said, I loveyour podcast, but the music is embarrassing.
So anytime somebody will come up andsay I love the music of your
show, Nick will go, yeah, it's embarrassing. Never listened to the
(15:35):
negative reviews. So when we weren'tout that I'd be doing this interview with
you, I thought, you knowwhat, I'm going to google the Captain.
Let's see when it comes up,and you guys will know yourself.
You google something and you get alist of suggested questions on Google. So
I just googled the Captain, trueCrime garage, previous interviews to see who
(16:00):
I was stacking up against, andthen instantly stopped treading all that when I
realized that the top question that Googlesuggests when you put your name in is
is the Captain drunk? No?And so if you listen to the show
enough. I dealt with like severedepression for a long time. So when
(16:23):
we'd start the show, Nick waslike, I have this idea that we're
gonna pair a beer normally, likeyou know, if the crime took place
in Seattle, we're gonna have aSeattle beer and I was like, but
I don't drink, and so he'slike, well, that's fine, you
don't have to. Like, theaudience only knows what you know. So
(16:44):
then if I say a bunch ofdumb shit and then the comments are like,
he must be drunk. But it'slike, I can't. I can't.
I can't drink once a week.Or I'm like, get very close
to jumping off the bridge, andthat's not a good thing without needs.
If you do do that, wellyou send me the notes of your thoughts
beforehand. It's just no I wantedto jump off a bridge, dear Bob.
(17:12):
So you've done about seven and fiftyodd episodes, Yeah, we reckon
plus bonus episodes, bonus episodes inamongst them. Is there a case that
sticks in your mind? All ofthem? Well, not all of them,
but there's I call them red lightcases. There are cases that you
can't get out of your head on. One of mine is does people know
(17:33):
the West Memphis three case? SoI know a lot of people are very
opinionated on whether they're guilty or they'reinnocent, And in that case, for
the most part, I think they'reinnocent. But there's little things about like
at the start of the second documentary, he says, it's gonna be cool
(17:55):
now because people are gonna think insteadof the Boogeyman being under the they're going
to be looking for me. Andthat's pretty cool. And you're like,
wait a second. If you're innocentof the crime, that's not something you
should be proud of. And sothere's little things like that in that case
that bother me. So I canstop at a red light and go that
bothers me, and then by thenext red light go, oh, that's
(18:19):
fine, he's innocent. So WestMemphis three to the point where I'm not
allowed to look it up on YouTubeanymore at night because I've gone down some
crazy rabbit holes. I mean,I would love to debate that case with
people, like people that think they'reinnocent, because I could like keep bringing
up stuff that you would be like, wait, that doesn't make Like,
(18:41):
for example, they just won thisthe right to test items. Did you
know that they created the list ofitems they want to test and that they've
left off items well, the othertwo are not involved. Yeah, And
(19:03):
then also like at the trial,they brought up the fact that he was
possibly into Alistair Crowley. Does anybodyknow who Alistair Crowley had a house on
Lochness and all that far from well. Alistair Crowley like he was a cult
and he he actually he was anasshole, super big asshole. But he
(19:26):
bought a house on loch Ness tolook for NeSSI and only bought the house
because he thought it had magical powers. But he believed that if you killed
a child that you would basically becomelike a god on earth. And the
age of that child was a eightyear old child. The three victims were
(19:47):
eight years old in that case,So that's kind of weird that it lines
up. And then the guy getsout of prison after he omitted that the
state had enough evidence to convict him, after he said weird shit, and
then he makes poses on Instagram thesame poses that Aleister Crowley used to make.
(20:10):
And to me, that's insensitive tothe victims' families. That's insensitive to
the people that supported him in prison. And we're not talking about like,
oh, well, it's just apose that everybody makes. No, these
are poses that were made famous bythis guy that is telling that told the
whole world if you kill an eightyear old child, that you'll become a
god on earth. And so Idon't know why he does these things because
(20:33):
I think it's very and but youcan be a big asshole and not and
not be a murderer. So butthat one bothers me. The John bin
a Ramsey case bothers me. Hasanybody heard about the teddy bear John Binn
at Ramsey? So there's all thecrime scene photos and you can see them
(20:56):
online. And in her bedroom shehad two beds, and on one of
the beds, the one that shewasn't asleep on on was a teddy bear.
And when they were asking the parentsto look through the photos to see
if anything's stuck out, both ofthe parents said, we don't know where
this bear came from. And sowhen you have a six year old girl
(21:18):
telling everybody for weeks Santa Claus isgoing to visit me after Christmas and bring
me a gift and an item showsup in your house that you don't know
where it came from, I thinkthat's pretty fucking weird. So that has
always bothered me. And there usedto be an explanation for it online.
(21:40):
There was a website called Candy Rosethat was all about it. But that
whole section about the Teddy Bear isgone, doesn't exist anymore, and so
stuff like that that, like Iwalk around my house and just ponder this
shit, or like missing persons BrianShaeffer or mar Murray or any of these,
like I just yeah, how itis? Yeah, I do.
(22:00):
Yeah. Absolutely, We've got casesthat we've covered just a Putton no no
no, obviously slightly smaller platform thatI hate, an unfinished case. It's
one of those things that just boresin my mind. Ali does it deliberately
every now and again writes one that'scompletely unsolved, because he knows that I'm
going to be pissed off for threeor four days afterwards. We had a
(22:22):
discussion recently interested this is not writtendown, but just a s what's fascinating
to me is analytically, our showdoes better when it's a solve case.
Is that right, because like that'swhy people like Dateline. It starts off,
there's a mystery, and at theend we tell you what happens.
But the problem is those families aren'treaching out to us. So when when
(22:48):
a kid was murdered and they haveno leads and they're reaching out to you
and going, hey, can youjust please talk about this case? Can
you please make my son matter?And you want to let them know your
son mattered. Period, It doesn'tmatter if he's talked about on a podcast
or not, you know what Imean? Yeah, but you know as
(23:08):
well as I know. It's likewe've done cases on like an unsolved case
and then get the detective reaches outand says, hey, we got some
leads because of your show, andone of the club'st cases got solved,
and the detective didn't want to admitit, but he's like, I think
it kind of ended directly was becauseof you guys, And we're like,
(23:30):
oh, awesome, cool, youknow, but yeah, but see if
I did what Nick did, Ibragged about it. Nick, my brother
has a group called the Project PorchLight, and they pay for DNA testing
on crimes that they have DNA.But what's crazy is could you imagine if
(23:52):
your loved one was raped and murderedand the department was saying, we have
their DNA, but we just don'thave the money to run the test.
So Nick started this group called Projectport Flight, and the first case that
they went after, the organization didn'thave any money and he wrote like a
(24:12):
six thousand dollars check to get thetest done, and then it was a
random stranger and they went and arrestedhim. And now he's sitting behind bars
and You're like, you fucking solveda case. I'd be like telling everybody
about it, Like he doesn't talkabout that shit at all, and I'm
like, and it's mad because thetop Google question for you is the captain
(24:32):
drunk. Yeah, and he's solvingcrime and he's solving crime. No.
The best though, is I wasat a bar in my hometown. None
of us are surprised. Yeah.I was at this bar and this guy
runs in and he goes, hey, man, your brother is a guy
from high school. He's like,your brother does true crime garage. Man,
(24:56):
that's fucking awesome. He's like,man, did you just write a
book? And I'm like yes,and he's like did he solve that murder
up in Cleveland? And I'm like, I don't know how you know all
this shit? And then and thenwhen he goes to leave, he said,
hey, hang in there, man, And I was like, does
he not know that I'm on theshow, But which one of you is
(25:19):
in crime? Clown Glasgow? Yeah? That's right, right, say that,
Nick. Yeah, So just kindof leading off what you're talking about
that. Ali and I had adiscussion recently about cold cases, and obviously
most jurisdictions of the police forces keepcases opening almost indefinitely in case the league
(25:45):
comes up, like you're talking about. We had a discussion recently about when
does a cold case go from thepoint of cold we might find something to
I think we used the term frozencase, like there must be a point
when we were talking about like historicallythere must be a point in years,
yeah, or or depending on lackof evidence, because I mean, look,
(26:07):
if you have no evidence five yearsinto no evidence, you go,
WHOA where do we gotta go on? I mean, what's great is my
dad. My dad was a detectiveand we're probably doing the show for like
two or three years. And thenmy dad was like, Hey, I
heard you guys have a podcast oncrime. I didn't know you guys were
(26:29):
into that. And I was like, Nick has been into it since he's
like a baby. I think Iasked my dad what a podcast was,
try and turn his more demo.Yeah. No, my dad is a
very interesting person. My parents gotdivorced and it was just me and my
father, and I played in theorchestra and jazz band and all this stuff.
And I remember saying to my dad, Hey, we got to go
(26:52):
to the school to pick up mytopesedo nice for jazz band, and you
guys, you're playing jazz band.And this is like six years of playing
in jazz and I was like,yeah, I played in jazz band.
And so then my dad goes,are you gay? And then it was
it was a joke in his mind. So I just was like, oh,
that was a joke. So weget in the car, but he
(27:15):
felt so bad about the joke thatthe whole ride to the school, he's
like, well, it was justa joke. But see, guys I
went to school with that were inthe jazz band. They were gay.
But what did you play in jazzbands? Nice? Man, You've traveled
most of Ohio? Have you notdo it playing bass in buns? I
read that most of the US.I've read some reviews of your should yeah
(27:41):
for a long time, which Idon't know how it happened. I played.
I was in the band with Nickyeah, because he made me just
like the yeah, yeah. No. The funny thing was I was learning
bass. I was like really biginto the sign. I think you guys
caught Yeah, And I was areally good goalie and my brother played bass,
(28:07):
and so I just like practice basson the side. And I remember
one day I'm like in the basementpractice in my bass, and Nick came
downstairs and was like, get upstairs. You're in the band. I don't
look cool singing and playing bass atthe same time. Do you remember Airheads?
Yeah? Man, that was likeour big influence. Like we had
(28:30):
a song that basically sounded like theAirhead song one. If we ever do
this again, can we have afour of you in that band here?
That was with me in the ninetiesup as well. But I'd love Morgan
Morgan, my buddy Morgan. Hehe used to go to our gigs just
to make fun of us. Thatdoesn't even surprise, but yeah, And
(28:53):
so okay, we've probably got timefor one more question from me and then
we'll ask if anybody else has gotit. So the only other question I
was gonna have for you is,have you ever come across a case that
you would just decided it that youwouldn't cover? Where's the where's the bar?
Boulger what's his name, the littleboy that was a kid, Jami,
(29:17):
Yeah, Jamie. When I firstheard about the case, I went,
oh my god, we got tocover this. And I told Nick
about it, and like I said, Nick, Nick was the expert.
Like when we started the show,it was like, well, nixt to
the expert. And then it's alsoa weird thing to like eventually, like
at first, okay, so thefirst couple of episodes, I was like
(29:37):
trying to be a part of theshow, and then I got so many
like nasty emails, and this oneguy was so set on me like hanging
myself. He would like send likean email like twice a day. I'm
sorry for sending them. Yeah,but it was insane because it was like
I think it was like our ninthepisode and I just told Nick, I
(29:59):
have two many like mental issues.There's demons there, yeah, and I'm
like, I don't want to dothis and then get this negative feedback and
so there's like if you listen tothose like I don't know. It was
like episode nine to ten around there, like I just start not talking and
I'm just like trying to record him. And then eventually Nick was like,
I can't do this without you.So it's a really fucking weird world to
(30:22):
be like one. You got totake a step step back to your brother
because he's the talented one and andsupport. I mean, that's this is
his dream. I don't want totalk about murders. And does anybody know
the mar Murray case? So Ilove this audience. You can literally ask
anything like yeah, yeah, ofcourse I did. Mar Murray wanting a
(30:45):
fucking book on it. Mar Murraywas this student that she told her school
that she had this emergency, familyemergency, but she never told her family
there was no emergency, and shetook off in a direction that was not
home, and she got on thiswreck and somebody stopped to help her,
(31:07):
and by the time he called thecops, it's only like a seven minute
window. And when the cops showedup, she was gone. And a
lot of people thought that maybe herboyfriend was involved somehow. And so one
day on Twitter, I get amessage from the guy's name is Bill Rausch
and he grew up like a coupleof miles from me, and actually I
(31:30):
think we played against each other insome kind of sporting competition when we're kids.
And he's like Hey, I wouldlove to talk to you about the
case. And I'm going people thinkyou're the murderer. Hell yeah, I'll
talk to you on the phone.And we talked for eight and a half
hours the first day, just paceand I paced when I'm on the phone.
So I'm just pacing and pacing eightand a half hours because I was
(31:52):
convinced, like he wouldn't shut thefuck up, and I'm like, I'm
convinced I can get him to say. I mean, he was saying some
like really bad ship and I waslike, ah, you know, like
because he was he was accused ofall these assaults and stuff, and he
was like basically confiding in me,like I did this crime, and I
did this crime, and I'm I'mgoing to play guilty and it's got it's
(32:16):
got traits of one of the Sothe second longest prison sentence in Scottish history
was handed out about a month ago. I'm sure all of you here will
know the M. A. Caldwellstory. I won't say his name.
I refused to. In my dayjob of outside of podcasting, I'm I'm
a I work for a large mediacorporation filming like ABC, but slightly different
(32:45):
and I had the horror of goinginto the Glasgow Share of Court while he
was being tried. Recently swimming withone of our correspondents, a guy by
the name of Dave Cowen, whois a wonderful, wonderful journalist, and
just sitting watching somebody who had putthemselves up for interview on the television to
(33:06):
say this is a mad case.It's that level of absolute sociopath that comes
from the same sort of thing whereit he's happy to talk to you because
he's singing his own praises, butit's not me. And there's that level
of removal from the human psyche thatreally baffles me about some people that we
(33:27):
talk about well, and I thinksome of these cases where you have these
if you have a lot of evidenceagainst somebody and they're like, no,
I'm innocent, some of me wondersbecause there are cases that people have killed
somebody and they don't remember it.So if they don't remember it, then
are they guilty of doing it becausethey don't really aren't doing it? Yes,
you know, I mean obviously they'reguilty of doing it. Yeah.
(33:51):
Well, what I'm saying is ifyou start trying to trip them up they
don't actually believe that they do anything. So, you know, I don't
know's it's a captain. We haveabout five minutes left. I think,
Oh, that went fast. Sowe've just sat here and thought, except
for some people in the audience arelike, they didn't go fast at all,
Bory And is there anything that Aligrab that? Yeah? Is there
(34:16):
anything in the audience that would liketo ask a question of the captain or
myself? I mean, Ali downhere, Oh no, we'll come to
you next emotion. Yeah, Andsome of them, like the case of
(34:44):
Anthony case really bothers me because Idon't think we should call it true crime.
I don't. I don't think that'sthe correct title for the genre.
It should be called what we thinkwe know so far. And it's just
like if you look at that case, nobody has ever told you the right
story of how that kid died andhow they died was the mom was going
(35:07):
out to bars and she was basicallydrugging her daughter and putting her daughter in
the trunk. And anybody that hasgone to college or university knows that,
Like have you ever gone on adate and you have like leftovers, like
leftover food and you put in yourcar, and then you went out drinking,
(35:28):
and then you came back to yourcar the next day and it's hot,
and you know, that's what fuckinghappened. The kid died from in
Florida heat. The kid would diewithin five minutes in that trunk. And
so if she's five minutes late fromwaking up, and obviously if she's going
out getting drunk at some point,she's not going to wake up on time.
(35:49):
And that's what happened, and thatchild died in that trunk. And
what's sad is there's been a milliondocumentaries and nobody, nobody has ever said
that's how, that's how that happened, and and that's how that happened.
That's I'm one hundred percent. SoI think from my from my side,
the ones that we come because it'sslightly more historical. We never nothing ever
(36:10):
sticks from me because I would tendto not talk about something that I'm uncomfortable
with. The things that always stickwith me that I always go and they
sink in my head is when there'sbig, a big change in society or
change in policing that's come from sucha horrific event. So we cover Aliy
and I covered the case of Juneand Devani recently, who was a three
year old girl who was in hospitalwho was kidnapped from the hospital by a
(36:35):
guy who blamed drink which is notan excuse, and sexually assaulted her and
then killed her in the grounds ofthe hospital. But what happened after that
was a mass finger printing of aboutsixty thousand males in the surrounding area,
and it basically changed placing, changedthe way. They're the things that stick
with me, probably because I'm Idon't like reading about the still like I
(36:57):
couldn't do the job in a case. It just I've got nothing to add
to it. And also I can'tread all that stuff like it. Here's
what bothers me the most. Andlike I said, I think it shouldn't
be called true crime, it shouldbe called what we think we know so
far. And that first started happeningwith Brian Schaeffer as a kid that went
into a bar and he's on videogoing into a bar, and he's not
(37:20):
really on video coming out of thebar, and he was drunk out of
his fucking mind. But his dad, when people were looking for him,
was like my son wasn't drunk,and he was, and then these girls
hit it. They flirted with him, and he exchanged numbers with them,
and he was then in the mediagoing, my son had a girlfriend,
(37:43):
he was going to get engaged,which was not true. And he was
trying to say that these girls werewhoores and they were drunk sluts and my
son never would have gave them hisnumber, and so he was narrative.
He was trying to control this story. And just like West Memphis three.
So these are the things that botheredme the most is when you hear the
(38:05):
story of these three boys were murderedand they just went after these three teenage
boys because they listened to Metallica,and you go, that's not true.
He was. He even admitted hewas getting disability from the state, and
he put on the reason why hewanted disability was he said he was homicidal
and suicidal. And it's like ifhe's telling law enforcement they did. They
(38:30):
didn't just show up at his houseand go, what Metallica CD do you
like, well kill them all you'rearrested. There was a reason why they
were looking at him. Good tune, you know, we are pretty much
it can be a five minutes now, is that right? Just to wrap
up? Yeah, and oh mygod, good night, Malone mccairn.
(39:09):
I'm gonna I'm gonna go out thereand say from the start and you can,
you can have your moment in it. I'm not fucking touching it on
so many levels. I we talkedearlier in one of the first It talks.
Steve Keele said this morning that thehardest thing to do is remove yourself
(39:30):
from a case as a police officer. As a podcaster, it's not quite
as important as removing yourself from acase as a police officer, but you
have to be able to do it. If you're going to produce something that
is tangible, factual, and readyfor an audience, you can't have a
really inherent opinion. And for thatreason, Ali and I are out.
(39:55):
Wait, thank you very much.Wait, I don't want five percent of
your company. I'm are you sayingthat you we just wouldn't touch it.
You think as a podcast you're notallowed to have an opinion. No,
that's not what I'm saying at all. We will come back to your question.
Sorry, that's not what I'm saying. You can have opinion, and
of course part of what people listento is your opinion and the way that
(40:16):
you've scripted it, in the waythat you've written it, in the way
you tell it. But I thinkif you've got an inherent signed that you
take, that's a different matter.If you can't balance that by telling the
story properly. Right, No,But see that's where I differ, because
I think with the freedom of speech, if somebody feels strongly that the parent
(40:40):
parents are guilty of their parents areinnocent, that's that's for them to tell
the story. I mean, like, that's kind of what I mean,
though, I'm here to tell youin my opinion. I'm here to tell
you the story and let you makeyour own decision, right. I don't
want to force my opinion unless I'vehad three or four pints, then I
might, you know, No,we always try to tell the story,
and then if there's time we liketo say, well we think maybe this
(41:04):
happened, or maybe we would wantthis question answered. We covered that case.
The thing that sucked was for whateverreason, I kept on Connor McCann
and so for I was like andI couldn't stop doing it, and so
I eventually just had to say,like we just got to keep recording because
I so for two hours, I'msaying the victim's name is wrong, which
(41:25):
is very disrespectful. And I knewI was doing I couldn't fix it,
but that one is so tough becausethe parents. But there's some dark shit
in there, and and there's aguy that they befriended the family, and
he's connected to the Pedestos in America, which are like known pedophile ring and
(41:47):
it gets really dark. And what'ssad is they don't want you talking about
that stuff. Like I've been sayingit from the beginning. There's certain things
that we covered this track episode calledBoys on the Tracks, and these two
(42:07):
boys were murdered. They try tomake it look like they just got drunk
and fell asleep on the train tracks, but there was bullet holes in them.
And then there was like ten eyewitnessesthat were murdered, and so it
got so dark, and it wasall connected to Bill Clinton. And the
more we dove into it, themore I was like, I don't want
(42:29):
to talk about this because somebody mightshow up at my door and get rid
of me. So we've gone waydeeper than I thought we were gonna go.
No, so hold on. Here'swhat I like to do though.
Every now and then I'd just liketo tell my phone I love the government,
but you've got fucking microphone plumped inthe mine. I'm pumped the mode.
(42:51):
I love the government and you doeverything for me. Yeah, please
don't kill me. Move here.I was gonna say, move here.
It is better. It's not fuckthat. Ladies, gentlemen, we have
Oh I tell you, I tellyou what we do. One more?
Come on, one more, onemore. You asked for that. The
(43:14):
problem is that Stephen Avery is sucha piece of shit, you know.
And yeah, the first thing thatyou have to think about is is somebody
capable of committing the crime. Ireally think that her boyfriend, her ex
boyfriend, should have been looked atmore. There's a scene where he is
(43:36):
talking to the search party and thegulps in his mouth, you know,
because he's so nervous. It's juststrange, like he's acting so strange.
And again a lot of these casesare not that hard to solve. It's
like it's normally somebody close to thevictim, and obviously he would have motive
(43:58):
because they weren't together, you know, But is that a quick one.
Yeah, how do I think we'vecalled that? Nick does all the work?
Nick does No. Actually, whenwe first started, it was just
like, oh, I think thisone's interesting, we should talk about it,
which kind of sucks because we talkedabout some of the big cases early
(44:21):
on and I'd like to revisit them. We're actually going to revisit the West
Memphis three case a little bit andtalk about what we've learned from them.
I mean a lot of people don'tknow that there was like seven or eight
eyewitnesses that recanted their statement and nevertestified against them in trial, and they're
they're omitting that these people confessed thenthey crimed, and I think that would
(44:44):
have changed the way. If youwatch a documentary and you have ten people
on the stand saying that these peopleconfess that they killed these kids, you're
probably not making a second documentary abouttheir innocence. So, but now what
we do, it's just there's twothere's actually two ways. We've actually had
(45:05):
a lot of law enforcement reach outto us and they will just tell us
we are stuck, and here's thecase file, and all, by the
way, we never gave you thecase file. And so if we say
oh, we've talked to law lawenforcement. We've really talked to law enforcement,
which is great because they're they're doingeverything in their power to try to
(45:29):
get people to talk about the case. Because if if people stop talking about
the case, it goes away,and and then and there and every law
enforcement has a limited budget, rightso once it goes away, then those
people are forgotten. And then andon that note, to wrap up,
(45:50):
I'll answer your question. I googlethree random words. One's a place,
one's a crime, and one's anonsense word, and I see what comes
up on Google. That's how Ifind mine. Ladies and gentlemen, Thank
you very much for listeners. Thankyou. I've had a blast. Thank
(46:13):
you very much for listening to ourlive recording from Crime Gume. I hope
you enjoyed it. It was greatfun talking to the Captain and hopefully we'll
be doing so again. We'll leaveyou as I always do with me.
Thank you, love you, bye, thank you few, bye you yourself,
call you bye. Mmoo woo woot
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