Episode 106 - The Teacup Poisoner-Part 2

This week on Twisted Britain we continue Alis Teacup Poisoner trilogy in 4 parts, in this episode we see the protagonist, go to trial and sentencing 

Episode Transcript

(00:31):
Hello, and welcome to Mister Britain, a podcast and true crown in Britain
with a sprinkling of the weird ofthe macab and. Your hosts are me
Bob Dale and me Ali Downey.Holy ship you're Bob said, is turning
Ali down? I always have toturn you down lower than me. It's
your powerful resonance, powerful voice.That's what it is, alistair. It
projects at least there's something powerful aboutyou. One thing. One thing.

(00:55):
What's the most second most powerful thingabout you? My wit? You're wit?
Like it. I'll take that anddo you know what, I will
say that your your your voice isthe most powerful thing. Your storytelling is
the second. Your wit is waydown there. My most powerful thing is
running away from the police. That'sgood skill to have, though I lost

(01:18):
a lot of it since I wasabout sixteen or seventeen. But that might
be the handiest superpower for a preteen, for a preteen, the ability to
evade the police. Handy for us. Fuck, yeah, it would have
been. We did a lot runningaway, hiding in trees actually, yeah,
and bushes, bushes, blowing upbatteries. Remember that night, I
remember that night. Yeah, Idon't know how we got there this early

(01:38):
in a podcast garden runs? Whatwould you call a garden run? Let's
put this out there people today.Trespassing, trespassing, very good, that's
what you called a garden run?Very good? I mean there's I'd call
it. Chappie Chappie. Yeah,we all, well, we did Chappy
down highfields and Dumblane was like theperfect run of gardens with the defenses.

(02:00):
We didn't we never did that.We never did, never did people who
live in high fields. That wasnot us. Have you heard of ding
dong dash things dash? Yeah,I don't think. I don't like it
as much as Chappie Chappie was better. Yeah. If you have another term
equally illegal, oh, also trespassing, if you have another name for rattling

(02:21):
some cunt store and running away.But knockdown ginger is what I've just been
shouted at. How very dare you? Knockdown ginger is a very different game
in Scotland. It's where we findthe ginger and then we knock him down.
I think I might have been thesubject of knockdown ginger frequently and often
sometimes in cars we'd wait to starta podcast. But here we are,

(02:44):
we are here we are in theSettle. We are joined today as well
by two of our oldest fans,Louise and Craig, which is amazing.
Not oldest because of their age,no, oldest because of the amount of
time that they had been listening tous. There we are a woo in
the background. Nice. They werehere for the We've done two. This
is our second recording of the eveningis and we're doing this because we don't

(03:07):
need to go into it because wetouched on it on several occasions. Ali
has fucked off down south. Yeah, Sarah's stolen him from me? Is
what's happened me from you? Yeah? Exactly. That is the cutest thing
you've ever said. I loved youfirst, Alist, So that's all I'm
saying. But we are in theSettle end and we're doing a couple of

(03:27):
recordings this evening, and we werefollowing on from well I think it was
the longest recording move. It waslongest recording we've We're done certainly in word
count and in minutes. Good luckrecord editing that. Yeah, cheers man,
thanks for that. However, youare nowhere near finished. No,
this is only episode two we're doingnow of at least a three part are

(03:50):
we gonna are we gonna put anumber on it? Or it might be
trilogy slash it's it's a trilogy.And then I think we're going to record
either a Patreon or a shorter episodewhere I'd like to talk about what it
was like to do this episode andwhy I told the story the way I
did very much look forward to that. What do you call a four part
thing? A quadril quadrology? Quadrology? Quite like that word quadrology is a

(04:14):
good word. So you left us, well, we left you last time
at the point where a murder hadbeen committed singular. The boy that we
are following has been systematically poisoning peopleand has definitely killed at least one.
But we covered we covered. Iwould say episode one covered the the breakdown

(04:38):
of a life building up to somethingcertainly interjected wise, both of our thoughts
on what it was to be ofthat age and delivering that and our I
don't want to say shock with it, but like the incomprehension of what that
would be. So do we leadon directly from that into this episode?

(05:00):
Yeah, we read on directly thesecond episode and what we're probably gonna call
the Teacup trilogy. Well, Imean, it's what I've written down here,
so it's what we're calling it.It's like the Cornetto trilogy. But
sad, I love a cornetto cornetto. What's your favorite Cornetto one? Oh?
Controversial. I very much enjoy thestrawberry one. But it still has

(05:21):
to have the solid bit of chocolateat the bottom, just as I played
a bit of chocolate. Of course, it has to be treat at the
end of a treat. Anyway,what's your least favorite ice cream dessert?
Edit? Vodka kalipo. Fucking Honestly, that wasn't a dessert. That was
my breakfast bell end, So Ifeel like we have to explain this.
We had the pleasure of going ona stag doo to Eastern Europe. We

(05:44):
were in Budapest Pest, which myfavorite fact about Budapest was it was two
cities, it was Buddha and Pest, and then they joined and it became
the capital of Hungary. And wewere sat one morning and Fat Frank's party
hostel was fat for grandiose party hostels, fucking I mean, and we saw
some ship that day that will neverbe talked about ever again and take this

(06:06):
as an endorsement in any way ofFrank's grandiose party hostel. However, they
would like sponsors a happily. Yeah, we had a wonderful time. It
was great changed my life. Aliwent out one morning earlier than the rest
of us because he was still screamingjunk from the night before. I was
and I wanted a calipo for breakfast, and Ali came back with It was

(06:29):
a lemonon lina. It was delicious, but it was a fucking lemonon line.
I wanted an orange one. Butanyway, I said, the only
thing that this could save anything isif there was vodka in it, passing
comment, just throw it out thereinto the ether. Yeah, but somebody
had also brought about the vodka backwith him as well. Who was that
somebody? Somebody was me. Yeah, and you then tipped fucking vodka into

(06:51):
my calipo. I filled your kalipowith vodka. It was the most amount
of breakfast heartburn I've ever And thenwe went to a spa. We did
go like a massive outdoor spa.It was banging, this, drinking,
this stag do malarkey. Let's alljust go to a spa. I was
flying and it was like eight inthe morning. You think, so,

(07:12):
I do. My body does notforgive you no anyway, and insight into
our stupid lives, which probably youget more often than you need on a
true podcast or want in a truecrime podcast. But yes, we get
back to our boy. Yeah,let's get back to our story as a
quick recap, even though I'm sureyou'll all remember we talked last episode about

(07:36):
the early life and crimes of FredYoung's son, who, by the age
of fourteen, had, during thecourse of years of obsessive experimentation, poisoned
his entire family, his few friends, and many of his classmates with various
poisons, including antimony, digitalis atropine, which is belladonna, and thallium.

(07:58):
By nineteen sixty two, when theboy crimes were at last discovered and he
was arrested, his step mother Molly, had already died from a massive dose
of thallium, and his father wasbedridden and close to death with irreparable liver
damage from months of antimony poisoning.His Other victims, including his sister Winnifred,
had only escaped death due to theboy's extensive knowledge of lethal and non

(08:22):
lethal doses. Wonderful summary. CanI ask before we go further on,
you say there is extensive knowledge oflike that tipping point between lethal and non
lethal dosage. Yes, like wewe came to the conclusion, I think
fairly easily in the last episode thathe had been experimenting on animals and humans

(08:46):
to get to this point. Yes, was he an expert in his field?
Yes, absolutely, absolutely at thispoint his feel being poisoning of a
mammal was he was definitely an expertin his field. In a few pages,
and what will constitute is a fewmonths, he will stand trial for

(09:09):
poisoning and he will show greater knowledgethan some of the expert witnesses called now
Suspicions were finally raised after the hospitalizationof Fred Young himself very quickly following the
death of his wife Molly. Fred'sblood and urine had been sent to a
specific facility for testing, and tracesof unusual poisons that his son had been

(09:35):
giving up had been found. Sowhen we left the last episode, we
were talking about the death of themother, the stepmother sorry, and we
between has decided, not decided,but came to the conclusion that although the
cause of death was correct. Thecause of the cause of death was incorrect.
Yeah, exactly. The cause ofthe cause of death was the antimony

(09:58):
that she'd been poisoned with for monthsby her steps done and the actual cause
of death was thallium, which herson had given her a huge jose of
the night before. But we weskipped forward well in our time, eight
minutes, but in this a coupleof months ish, No, not even
a couple of months, I'd sayweeks. But then there is then a

(10:22):
toxicology report, yes, done.Do we know why the decision to do
that was. It was because Fred'ssister Wynn had come to the doctor with
him to voice her concerns that shethought he was being poisoned by his nephew,
by his son, her nephew,And then the toxicology report was done

(10:43):
exactly. The doctor, doctor Willis, I think, didn't believe her,
but to alleviate her fears, heordered blood tests that wouldn't normally have been
done and they showed antoniny and cyanide. So that's a big step here.
Then, Yeah, it is inthe course of the case and the fact
that they can then start to attributeexactly subsequent searches of the boy's bedroom,

(11:09):
in school desk, and the placesthat his friends knew he had chemicals had
turned up enough poisons and taught sixsubstances to kill at least three hundred people
Sparta. The police had no directevidence, however, that he had killed
his mother in law, as Molly'sbody had, if you remember, been
cremated when he himself had suggested itto his father, because he wasn't an
idiot, far from it, highfunctioning, very highly intelligent person. Now,

(11:35):
we talked briefly about his arrest inour last episode, but I'd like
to start today by covering it ina little more detail. Please do.
The date is the twenty second ofMay nineteen sixty two. The police have
enough evidence to believe that the boyhas been poisoning many people in small doses
for months, and they're ready toarrest him at his aunt Winn's house,
where he and his older sister Winifredwere staying while their father, Fred was

(11:58):
recovering in hospital. Detective Inspector Craband Detective Sergeant Burwood are waiting for the
boy to return home from school afterbriefly interviewing his family, who are understandably
reeling from the news that their yearsof constant bouts of unexplained sickness have in
fact been caused by their own fourteenyear old blood relative systematically poisoning them.

(12:20):
What a fucking mindful Yeah, justlike literally, that's a brain dumprain.
Not long after four point thirty pm, the boy calmly passes the police car
parked outside and saunters through the frontdoor and into the hall of his aunt's
house at thirty one Links Road inKneesden. He shouts hello from the door
as if it's any other day,and goes into the front room where his

(12:43):
family and the two officers are seated. Hello, officer, how may I
help you? Well? Even beforethe boy entered the room, the officers
could smell the ether fumes that wereemanating from him. So he was still
huffing. He's still having ether regularly, Yes, yeah, very regularly.

(13:03):
This was due, as we've said, to his long term habit of inhaling
the toxic alcohol based chemical to gethigh because he liked to get He liked
to get ha Hai. The firstthing, though, that the boy said
was to apologize for the smell andclaim that it was because he'd been sucking
throat sweets known as Victory v lozengesafter school. I'm pretty sure that's not

(13:24):
the advert they wanted. No,I'm sure the Victory v lozenges don't smell
like ether either. No, wellI don't. I don't know, but
I don't know, but I expectthey don't. He then slowly looks around
the room, exuding an air ofnonchalant confidence that actually slightly unnerves the two
seasoned officers because it was so outof the ordinary for a boy as young

(13:45):
as him when confronted with police,to show this sort of nonchalant confidence.
So they probably expected police are herepanic from the boy, whereas actually they
just walked in and he went,what's happening? Yeah exactly. Inspector Crab
stands up and tells the boy thatthey are investigating his use of poisons and
that they know that he keeps atleast some in school, and that they

(14:09):
understood he often carried them around withhim as well. Looking the inspector straight
in the eyes, he says,I am interested in poisons, but I
haven't got any at the moment.Well, that was a lie, Yeah,
it is a lie. The notebooksthat the police had found in the
boy's school desk, some of whichwere handwritten by the boy documenting his macabre

(14:30):
experiments on friends and family, alongwith his favorite reading materials, which were
Poisoner in the Docks and sixty FamousTrials of the twentieth Century, which I
have looked up and is available onAmazon. Thank you, Jeff Bezos.
Don't ever do that on this podcast, right anyway, All of those books
were on the table in the roomwhen the boy was asked if they were

(14:52):
indeed his, He confirmed it withoutbatting an eyelid, and next Inspector Crab
asked, have you any poisons inyour pocket? Wat's in his pockets?
I don't carry them about? Helies with practiced ease, But Inspector Crab
starts the boy regardless and found twostoppered bottles which contained white powder. When

(15:16):
asked what the bottles contained, theboy replied, calmly but in complete defiance
of his own statement, A fewseconds before. One is thallium, the
other I don't know about. Theother bottle actually contains antimony, as the
boy himself would tell officers not longafter this, when he reached the police
station, saying in an offhand waythe other bottle, it's antimony. I

(15:37):
suppose you would have found out anyway. It's weird to admit to having thallium
and then just go, yeah,I don't know what this one is.
Yeah, that that goes against kindof everything that we've learned about him so
far in previous episode, in thisone so far that he was very aware

(16:00):
and very accountable for what he didand what he had. I think he's
still aware. He admits to thethallium because in his eyes, he's already
dealt with that. He's cremated orhe's had that body cremated. There is
no way that they can check Molly'sremains for thallium poisoning. That is a

(16:21):
murder. He has gotten away withscot free. Is there a level of
understandable remorse in what he's doing then, is by hiding one of them?
Mmmm? I don't think so.No. No, I think he knows
what the police might know as hejust shit his knickers because the cops are
the slightly Now. Over the courseof the short questioning in the front room,

(16:45):
the boy told the two officers thathe had attained various poisons from pharmacists,
but he denied ever using atropine onhis sister at this early juncture,
before he had any real idea ofwhat the police actually knew. He denied
a lot that he would quickly andsubsequently confess to as soon as he realized
the police know this right, Okay, so he's willing to play the fool

(17:08):
until he's caught. Yeah, Heclaimed to begin with to have only used
the poisons that he had attained onplants and small animals, and never on
his family or friends. He alsocleverly avoided any questions pertaining to his stepmother's
death, which was still thought tohave been natural. It's mad that it's
mad that they're at this scenario wherethey're like, mate, you need to

(17:30):
come on as because of poisoning,but it's all right about your mum's death.
Yeah, they're not even suspicious.But I do think I also think
it's very interesting the way he canprevaricate and lie without any problem despite what
must have been a very high stresssituation. The officers, remember, had
cautioned him more than once, andhe knew that he was being investigated and

(17:51):
would be arrested for at least someof the serious crimes that he'd be committing.
Yet he seems able to lie withoutissue or without outward indication, even
directly contradicting things that he himself hadjust said seconds before. Does that come
back to then you You mentioned itbriefly in the previous episode about the inability
to associate empathy with anything. Yeah, exactly. You can't emphasize empathize with

(18:15):
people at all, So his moralcompass is non existent. There is no
moral compass there, and he canquite easily go, yeah, I did
that, but that didn't mean it. I didn't than that. Yeah.
He probably most the most conon bestsentence I've ever made in this podcast right
there. He probably makes no realdistinction between lies and truth. Okay,

(18:40):
And because that's what usually happens withpsychopaths or sociopaths who can lie that well,
yeah, and they make no discernibledifference internally between lies and truth.
Yeah. And I mean you broughtit up briefly in the previous episode about
being on an autistic spectrum. AndI know we don't officially talk about a
spectrum for autism anymore, but whenwe're looking at this in historical glasses,

(19:07):
shall we say it's easy to placesomebody on that, But it's not for
us to say that because it's notyou had never had a diagnosis, so
that's not or I'm assuming no,we've never had a diagnosis of autism or
anything like that. But we cansay reasonably that a generic outlook that that

(19:27):
falls into that espectly considering how muchmore we know about it now than then.
And I would like to say,like we have had people listening to
the podcast before that say that's notwhat autism is, and that's not what
we're saying here. What we're sayingis there are certain traits that go alongside

(19:47):
and that he falls into a bunchof them. If there's a vendiagram,
yes, then he's right in themiddle of a bunch of them. For
the listeners, Ali's making circles inthe air with his which you can't see.
Loved it, Loved it great.The two officers Di I. Crab
and D. S. Burwood orderedthat in a menu before Detective Inspector Crab

(20:11):
Crab Crab. They took him infor further questioning at Harlsdom Police Station,
where he was immediately charged with knowinglyadministering toxic substances to his sister Winnifrey.
Further charges would be added after morequestioning, but his aunt Wynn was allowed
to see him that evening after hewas brought out of his holding sale.
She pleaded with him to tell herwhy he'd done it, but the boy

(20:33):
looked at her, saying nothing,and then quietly asked the attending officer to
return him to his cell. Itwas literally no remorse, no yeah.
His father, Fred was still incrediblyunwell in hospital from the antimony that he'd
been given for months by his son. In fact, he wouldn't even be
told of his son's arrest for twodays, when his doctors felt that he

(20:56):
was strong enough to handle the newI can't imagine what must have been like
for him, fucking terrified to learnthat your child had not only been deliberately
poisoning people, but his own familyand yourself to such a degree that you
are now hospitalized with irreparable liver damage. It's just it's at that point where
you go, what else have Imissed? Almost like what are you looking?

(21:22):
I just imagine his father lying inhis hospital and realizing how ill he
has become because of this, goingfucking what else has he been doing?
It's absolutely bonkers. But Fred wouldmake a statement to the Sunday Mirror a
few days later. He said,Winifred and Wynn, that was his sister
and daughter, had been keeping somethings from me. They suspected that Graham

(21:45):
had been responsible for Molly's death.They knew about his interest in poisons and
poisoners, his books on the subject, his weird drawings and so on.
They put two and two together again, and this time they came up with
the right answer, but they didn'ttell me. They reported their suspicions instead
to a doctor, and finally thepolice were called in. The game was
up for him. All I knewlying there, and I really was near

(22:08):
to death, was that a nursingsister came to my bedside and told me
as gently as she could that hehad been taken away by the police.
Then a detective came in and wasallowed to talk to me for a short
time. He asked me a fewquestions, and suddenly it all fell into
place. I knew for the firsttime what he'd been doing. He was

(22:30):
a deadly poisoner. It was themost shattering blow of my life, and
I can't really describe how it felt, and how could you. Yeah,
I don't know how to follow that, to be honest, other than like
it's like the worst game of cuplunkever. Literally you pull one stick out
and literally everything falls down and yougo, oh fuck, there's there's like

(22:56):
I would imagine like and I amspeculating here entirely that he had a feeling
that his son probably wasn't normal ina very commerce We don't like to use
that word, but you don't wantto put a full scale he's poisoning his
mother in law, his mother,say, his stepmother and sister and everything

(23:18):
right in until that that moment rightthere, that moment, right that moment
right there goes called plunk. Yeah. Fuck yeah, imagine how that would
have felt. I can't. Idon't want to either, to be honest,
I know. On the twenty fourthof me two days later, the
boy was interviewed by Detective Inspector Craband he gave a full statement, which

(23:41):
I'll read in a moment. Whenthe officer sat down across from him,
he almost immediately said, I thinkI will tell you all about it.
It's been an obsession with me,like taking drugs. Right okay, Crab
cautioned the boy calmly who was seatedopposite him, and he asked if he
wanted to write his own statement,or if he wanted anybody else present,

(24:04):
such as a member of family orindeed a lawyer. But shaking his head,
however, the boy answered, I'drather tell you on your own.
You can write it down. Thestatement is both chilling in its cold confession
of some of the boy's crimes andalso telling in its omission or obfuscation of

(24:26):
some others. It reads as follows. I have been very interested in poisons,
their properties and their effects since Iwas about eleven years old. In
May last year, nineteen sixty one, I bought twenty five grams of antimony
potassium tartrate from Rhe's limited kneased inLane. Within a couple of weeks,

(24:48):
I tried out this poison on myfriend John Williams. I gave him two
or three grains at school. Ican't remember how I caused him to take
it. I think it was probablyon a cream biscuit or a cake.
He was sick after taking it.I gave him a second dose in May
in the same way, and inthe following month I gave him another two
doses, always two or three grains, and always on food at school.

(25:10):
After this, I started experimenting athome, putting sometimes one, sometimes three
grains onto prepared foods which my mother, father, and sister ate. I
must have eaten some of the poisonedfood occasionally, because I became sick as
well. I know that after eatingthese prepared foods, my family were all
sick. My mother went to ourdoctor about her sickness. By September of

(25:30):
last year, this had become anobsession with me, and I continued giving
members of my family small doses ofantimony tartrate on prepared foods. In November
of nineteen sixty one, I boughttwo ounces in separate ounces of antimony tartrate
and one and a half grams ofBella donna from Edgar Davis Chemists near Kneesden

(25:51):
Lane. One morning at the endof November. It was on a Wednesday,
I was getting up getting ready togo to school. I had breakfast
in the kitchen and my sister's cupwas on the dresser containing a small quantity
of milk. I put one sixteenthgrain of belladonna in the milk, and
then I left for school. Thatnight When I got home, my mother
told me that my sister had beenill during the day. When my sister

(26:12):
came home from work, she toldus all the symptoms of her illness,
and I knew that it was theeffect of the Belladonna. I was asked
by my mother if I knew anythingabout it, but I denied it.
After this, I gave the remainingBelladonna to my friend John Williams. He
lives at fifty two Layfield Road.I think he still has it in his
room. When I first bought theantimony from Reese, I also bought digitalis,

(26:37):
but I didn't use this. Igave it to a friend, Richard
Hands. He's at my school,and I think I gave him six ounces.
I think he gave some of itto John Williams. Since the beginning
of this year, I have onoccasion put antimony, tartarate solution and powder
on foods at home which both mymother and father have taken. They have
become ill as the result of this. My mother lost weight all the time

(27:00):
through it, and I stopped givingit to her about February. I also
stopped using it all together. Then, after my mother died on the twenty
first, of April. I startedputting antimony tartarate on foods at home and
in milk and water that my fatherwas drinking. As a result of this,
he became ill and was taken tohospital. He had only one attack
of vomiting when he was at home, but this came on when he was

(27:22):
in hospital, and I then realizedhow ill he was. I can't think
of anyone else that I've given poisonto, and I know that the doses
I was giving were not fatal.But I knew I was doing wrong.
It grew on me like a drughabit, except that it wasn't me who
was taking the drug. The twosmall jars that you found on me yesterday
contained thallium sulfate and antimony and potassiumtartarate. This antimony is the one I've

(27:47):
been using at home, and Ibought it from Edgar Davies in November of
last year. I bought the thalliumfrom a chemist in Wilsden, just as
one enters Wilsden high Road from DodenHill Lane. I've not given anyone doses
a thallium. I realize how stupidI've been with these poisons. I knew
this all along but I couldn't stopbeautifully read Alistair. Thank you for that,

(28:14):
holy fucked fourteen year old and beingable to write that's quite something.
Yeah, well he dictated it,yes, but to voice that at fourteen
is quite something. It is,and if we've just heard the statement reads
like a full confession, but italso contains several of what we know to
be lies. We know, forexample, that his obsession with poison started

(28:37):
far earlier than he claimed, andwe can see that he failed to mention
many instances of poisoning that we knowtook place, such as the poisoning of
Chris Williams at Regent's Park Zoo.He also denied ever using the thallium that
he'd obtained on anyone. Oh well, that's interesting, like considering that confession

(29:02):
that he's just given about I meanfull honesty in that he said what he
did. But do you take awayfrom that that he definitely didn't use the
thallium or so he used the thallium, so he should he will confess to
using the thallium in a page ortwo. In a page or two,
he is lying right now. Anddo we definitely know he used that in

(29:22):
his stepmother? Percent fine, Yeah, there's no doubt in our mind of
that. Why then use why dictateso, I mean, arguably beautifully to
confess your crimes? And then omitis that just because he's fourteen years old,
it's not I don't think. Ithink. I think he's maybe not

(29:47):
even cleverer than we're giving him creditfor. But I think he's more clever
than we're thinking. I think he'sadmitting to what he knows the police could
know or do no, and denyingor a anything that the police don't know
or might not know. The policethink that his mother died of thallium of

(30:07):
natural causes without without the use ofthallium, without the use of thallium.
It's a really interesting kind of crosspoint there where he goes, I don't
want to stand up and say andput himself into more trouble than he's already
in exactly. But he knows he'sfucked at this point. He knows he's

(30:30):
fucked. But he right now he'sonly being charged with administering a noxious substance
to his sister, not even noteven with the intent to kill. Yes,
he admits using thallium on his stepmother. That's murder. Yeah,
And you've I don't know. Iwas just playing in my mind that while

(30:52):
you were reading, No, notwhat you were reading, we were talking
beyond the reading, was like,is he smart enough to know that?
I go, I'll admit to whatyou know, rather than like say I've
done more. Yes, I thinkhe is. Yeah, especially if we're

(31:15):
considering him to have a sort ofneuropsychiatric disorder like psychopathy or sociopathy. That
is exactly what they would do.They would plant lies inside truths to make
them more swallowable, to make themeasier to digest, so to speak.
There's almost a level of self preservationbeyond the point. Yeah, yeah,

(31:38):
exactly, And like I say,this is a classic trait of the serial
prevaricator or liar, the planting oflies and emissions within truth to confuse an
an obfuscate, sorry, perceive reality. The most important truths that we did
hear, though, for me,were I know that the doses I was

(31:59):
giving were not fatal, but Iknew that I was doing wrong. Oh
yeah, the admission of guilt that'swrapped up in that. Yeah. This
is pertinent for two reasons. Ithink, because it shows that even if
he couldn't fully comprehend the consequences ofhis actions beyond the abstract. Yeah,
he had sufficient understanding of social societalmorals to know that he was doing wrong,

(32:22):
even if he may not have sharedthose morals himself. Which is weird
because that almost goes against the kindof conversation we had in the first episode.
There was like, did he knowwhat he was doing? Yes,
he knew what he was doing,but he was experimental at that point.
We're now moved on some months tothe point where it's no longer experimental.
He's fully acknowledging his findings almost exactly. And although the authorities still think that

(32:49):
his stepmother, Molly died of naturalcauses, we know from a later confession
of his that she died from ahuge joseph thallium. And he says himself,
I know that the doses that Iwas giving were not fatal, and
he did. Yeah, he knewa lot about fatal and non fatal doses.
So when he dosed to Molly thatfinal time, he knew exactly what

(33:10):
was going to happen. Well,that changes, That changes the theory on
murder, premeditation, all that kindof stuff. But he knew fatal,
non fatal through testing. Yes,not not just in an abstract sense from
a textbook. He knew it fromtesting and to like, and I'm not
removing from the fact that killing hisstepmother is the worst thing that he's done

(33:36):
so far. The ability to getthere, to know what he was doing
is terrifying. Man, It's reallylike, I can't comprehend that level of
inhumanity almost. I know what couldmake someone like that. Not doing nature
nurture. We're not doing it,No, we're not doing it, but
that is That is one of thethings I will touch about, touch on

(33:57):
if I ever actually write this upfully. Yeah, And actually I think
it's something what most interests me,what could make a person like that?
If we come back to the fourthepisode, I'll like you do your three
If we come back to a fourthepisode and doing it I've got personally,
I have a lot of opinions onnature nurture that you and I have shared
and talked about at the time,and I will try and not get riled
up about it and we can havea bleather love it. Getting back to

(34:22):
the story today to where we weresorry, the boy would appear at Willsdon
Juvenile Court on the thirtieth of Maynineteen sixty two, represented by Miss jen
Southworth of Lincoln and Lincoln Solicitor.During this sitting, which was an early
scene, preliminary evidence was heard pertainingto the poisoning of his sister Winifred.

(34:42):
Only interestingly and unusually, the boyhimself was actually allowed to cross examine and
question witnesses at fourteen years old.Fourteen years old. Now this delighted this
fourteen year old narcissist who wanted tobe known the greatest poisoner ever. Of
course, gives him show off howintelligent he was and give him a platform

(35:05):
exactly, But it also alarmed therest of the court, as he showed
far greater understanding of chemistry, toxicologyand poisons than any normal adults, let
alone any fourteen year old boy,and quite a few of the expert witnesses
that were called. I was aboutto ask that we are we putting him
up there with a pharmacologist or anextwort which that specific field. Yes,

(35:29):
maybe not so far like the useof penicillin and all that kind of stuff,
but the specific uses of toxology withinthe human almost everything. His obsession
with pharmacology and toxicology cannot be overemphasized. He would go through the ingredients of
bleaches and household cleaning products, tellinghis family what all of the different ingredients

(35:53):
could do if ingested in larger quantitiesthan were listed there, and as far
as we know, he was ableto extract them and use them to his
win if he'd wanted to, becausehe was that. He was that good
at what he was doing. Yeah, fucking honestly, Like, I wasn't
very good at anything when I wasfor Ah, that's not true. I

(36:13):
was pretty good at rollerblading. Yeah, but that was about the peak of
my life. I just said rollerbladein there, not skateboarding. No,
I wasn't skateboard. It was rollerblade. Man, you were good at rollerblading.
And I'll give you that double backflipa couple of times. I can
do three quarters of a backslip flipwhile shouting there is no spoon. I've
seen it and it's one of myfavorite moments of all time. Now,
at this preliminary hearing, when thearresting officer, Detective Inspector Crab, was

(36:37):
questioned, he made it clear thatsufficient further evidence existed to also charge the
boy with poisoning Chris Williams and hisown father, Fred Young. These charges
would be added when the boy nextappeared in court, but there was some
debate in court over what to actuallycharge him with. I won't bore you

(36:57):
with the details because it's actually quitelong winded, but it boiled down to
whether he administered the poisons maliciously withthe intention of endangering human life or deliberately
but as he claimed, always innon lethal doses and more to annoy people
than to endanger them. It's stillmalicious, though, isn't it. It's
still malicious. It's a very longIt's like a three week debate that went

(37:21):
on basically whether he was to becharged under section twenty three or Section twenty
four. Right, okay, butsince neither of them are murder charges,
it makes very little difference. Sothere was no there was no intent to
murder considered. Nope. That's baffling. Yeah, well it's not baffling because
we are looking at it again fromthe prospects of hindsight, hindsight and history,

(37:45):
because they haven't at this point stillcorrect me if I'm wrong. Associated
the stepmother's death completely. No,No, they still think Molly died of
natural cause. It Sorry, Ikeep coming back to that, but I
just find it baffling that we're atthis stage now that they haven't good and
obviously they can't go back to testbecause they've created. But surely there must
be an element of suspicion. Yes, certainly from his family. Now,

(38:14):
Yeah, his extended family, hisaunt, uncle, and cousin. They
were always bloody suspicious of them andbelieved that he poisoned his mother in law
for a while. Now his fatherand sister Winifred now probably believe that he
poisoned there, but the forces thatbe didn't. No, okay, no

(38:36):
death certificate said yeah, and thatwouldn't be changed retrospectively. Nope, absolutely
not. Now, in terms ofthis slight legal debate, they would possibly
foolishly with hindsight, choose the lesserof the charges. I mean, we've
talked about this on occasion where theytry for one murder instead of six or
whatever it happened to be. Becauseif you can try for a lesser charge,

(38:59):
you can get a conviction. Yeah. Basically, if they went for
the lesser charge, he would playguilty right in this case, So you
can you can almost guarantee a conviction. You can guarantee a conviction guilty.
But if they'd gone for what heshould have been tried for, it would
have been a long trial that itwould have been a much longer trial that
would have cost more. And ifthey'd known that he'd killed his stepmother,

(39:20):
they would have tried him for murder. Because I guess I suppose in this
scenario, and I am speculating,and I imagine you'll tell me in due
course that he was never going toget a death sentence because we're too far
into history. We're beyond hangings atthis point, and he's not going to
get a full life order because theydidn't exist until the eighties. So where

(39:43):
do you place this human at fourteenyears old, having whether you try him
for first degree murder, which isand I know that's an American term,
but you know what I mean,or you're trying to get him somebody,
he's always going to end up ina hospital rather than a jail. So
that changes what the trial's aspect is. Yeah, I agree, I don't

(40:10):
like it, but but it does. Yeah, Now it would be July
before the final trial concludes, andthe defense having pled guilty, to all
three lesser charges. The boy,still just fourteen years old, was sentenced
to fifteen years in the Broadmoor MedicalFacility in nineteen sixty nineteen sixty two.

(40:31):
Right, yeah, May ninety orJuly nineteen sixty two. So he was
sentenced to serve that right up tothe point, not long before we were
born. Like yeah, technically hecould still have been there when we were
born. Just this is the mostmodern, twisted written we've done in a

(40:51):
long time. Al I know,but it just it fascinated me so much.
No, no, no, no, carry on by all means,
So fifteen years in broad Moore.Before this, though, he first spent
time at the Ashford Romand Center.Here he was questioned and examined by a
number of psychiatrists and doctors before goingto Broadmore. Doctor Blair, who saw
him on a number of occasions,wrote, in spite of his high intelligence,

(41:16):
he has an inherent defect in hispersonality, or in other words,
he has a psychopathic personality. Itwould seem that it is this defect which
renders him narcissistic and accounts for hisextraordinary apathy and lack of appreciation of the
social and ethical consequences of his administrationof drugs to produce poisoning in his relatives

(41:38):
and friends. However, there seemsalso to be about him a certain detachment
from reality and a progressive diminuation ofemotional reaction that possibly indicate an incipient schizophrenic
process, But there is no otherevidence of overt schizophrenia at present. So
to surmise, he's not mad,but he's done some mad stuff. What

(42:05):
wait, well, what we seehere confirmed is what we already knew with
hindsight, and maybe because mental illnessis so much more prevalent now, the
boy that we're talking about, thesort of boy who at twelve or thirteen
years old could coldly poison his familyand friends, has a major neuropsychiatric disorder
of some sort undiagnosed undiagnosed shock.Now, we don't have time to discuss

(42:31):
psychopath versus sociopath or the intelligence orknowledge to go with that. Actually,
Alistair like I don't, we don't, we don't. We don't have the
knowledge base to discuss that. Weknow people who do, and we will
ask them, yeah, but it'snot our place to put that out there.
And also we don't have the timebecause I'd also like to read excerpts
from doctor Fish, who spoke tohis family as well as examining the boy

(42:53):
prior to his prosecution. Read onon examination. He is quiet and well
mannered. His general appearance is neatand tidy. He is quietly and conventionally
a dressed. He converses freely andanswers all questions readily and intelligently. He
shows no greal defects of memory.He shows no abnormality of his thought content,

(43:19):
and there is no evidence of delusionor hallucinations. The results of intelligence
testing show him to be well aboveaverage intelligence. He quite clearly enjoys discussing
poisons and his experiences with them,and he is no sort of reticence in
giving details of the doses of poisonsthat he's given his relatives or his friends.

(43:39):
As far as can be seen,he chose his relatives for his poisoning
experiments because of their proquinquity closeness,and he admits this freely. He describes
the administering of poisons to them ratheras an adult might describe a chemical experiment
which took place in a laboratory whichwas unconnected with human victims. He describes

(44:00):
the symptoms of his victims freely,with interest, but without emotion. His
uncle tells me that he used tocome back from the hospital after visiting his
father, whom he had poisoned,and describe the symptoms with a similar interest.
He makes it very clear that heconsiders himself extremely knowledgeable about the effects

(44:20):
of poisons, the clinical symptoms,and the amount which is likely to be
fatal or not. He is attimes almost patronizing towards myself in this connection,
only too ready to correct me,and not quite able to accept that
he might be wrong. There isno abnormality in his emotional reactions other than

(44:43):
an absence of real feeling towards others, including the relatives who he poisoned.
He shows a superficial emotional response towardsthose who have cared for him and those
who have been of use to him, but this is of an infantile level.
As I've said, he showed noproper regret for the sufferings he has
inflicted on those who have cared forhim, or on those whom he has

(45:06):
been apparently on friendly terms, butwho were the victims of his experiments.
While he appreciates fully that his actsof poisoning were against the law and against
socially accepted codes. He appears tohave no moral sense whatsoever in relation to
these acts. This is, inmy opinion, a case in which there

(45:27):
is a failure to develop moral feelingand with this a true moral sense,
together with a lack of feeling towardsothers. There's nothing to suggest that this
condition is due to mental illness orto any failure in upbringing. I consider
it to be a disorder of themind resulting in seriously irresponsible conduct, and
so constituting a psychopathic disorder within themeaning of the Mental Health Act in nineteen

(45:50):
fifty nine. In my opinion,he requires care, supervision and treatment in
a suitable mental hospital. In viewof the dangerous nature of his behavior and
his absence of moral sense, Ican only properly recommend that this should be
a maximum security hospital. Two things, Ye wonderfully read. Second, thank
you for clarifying the words. Ididn't know. I'm there for you.

(46:15):
Thanks man. To be fair,I had to look up propuinkity. Yeah,
well it was the one that youwent because you looked me dead in
the eyron went Bob doesn't know whatthis fucking means I didn't know what that
meant. And if you don't know, there's no chance I do so if
I may do my ten words surmiseof that. Basically, the expert in

(46:40):
this scenario is saying there's no chancehe should not sorry, there's no chance
in any way that he should notbe locked up. He has to be
locked up, but we can't lockhim up in a jail. Yes,
he has to go to a secureunit where his brain can be looked after
yep. Essentially, because he's beyondthe grasp of reality, so we need

(47:06):
to look after him and the others. Both doctors doctor Fish and doctor Blair
mention a failure to develop proper moralsense, and they mentioned his narcissism and
his sense of massive self importance.Both mark him as highly intelligent, but
dangerously obsessive and detached from reality,without a single regret for what he's done

(47:31):
terrifying. So, in July ofnineteen sixty two, this fourteen year old
boy became the youngest patient of Broadmoorsince the eighteen hundreds. Wow. Age,
of course, makes little difference insidethe red brick Victorian walls of that
facility, and he was treated muchthe same as any other patient. The

(47:52):
only acknowledgment to his unusual age wasa rug in his cell and a hot
beverage on his first night. Webrought boverl to get you in. Fucking
great. I'd hope it was ahot toddy. It's not. He's fourteen,
mate, He's getting a cup ofgravy and fuck off. It's rubbish,
poor guy. Nope, it's beenpoisoning folk for fourteen years. Okay,

(48:14):
fair enough. I have very littleremorse for You're right. None.
At the end of his first month, his family were allowed to visit for
the first time. His father,Fred was unable to come since he was
still recovering from and very angry aboutthe whole poisoning and irreparable liver damage thing.
Oh yeah, they're just the wepassive stuff that happened along the way,

(48:35):
exactly. He's still quite upset aboutthat. But his sister Winifred,
and his aunt and uncle and cousinSandra all took the three hour round trip
to see him. Still family thoughI suppose I know, but I've said
it before. I can't imagine whatthese people must have been feeling doing something
like that, going to visit yourbrother or cousin or nephew who you've watched

(48:57):
grow up, but you also knowhas been poison dozens of people, yourselves
included. Well, I suppose that'sthe point there is. It's literally the
people that were going that had beenthese were the victims. Victims. Yeah,
yeah, totally, these are thevictims, Bob going to see either
poisoner. Do you think they wereself identifying as victims at this point though,

(49:24):
Woh, great question. I'm justwondering out loud, like, no.
They they're dealing with the loss ofa family member. They're dealing with
the locking up of a family memberin an institution. I wonder if the
brain space is not in the placewhere they're going, Oh, we were

(49:45):
also a victim of his. Nowthey don't think of themselves as victims,
to be honest. With the exceptionof Fred, who was still livid.
Yea, they all felt sorry forhim. That's mad. They felt that
he was a member of their familywho had some sort of mental illness,
that they didn't understand that he haddone these things, but that it wasn't

(50:06):
his fault and Winifred and her memoirs. Obsessive Poisoner talks about how she was
ready on that first visit to startforgiving her brother. That in itself's more
baffling than the visiting him. Mhmm, it is wild. And now.
The conversation at this first meeting wasdescribed as awkward and stiff to begin

(50:29):
with, but also emotional. Noone seems to recall exactly what was said
at the start, until the boyleaned forward in his chair and without apparent
emotion, said, I gave Mollytwenty grains of thallium the night before she
died. I put it on atrifle. I knew she would die the
next day because I gave her somuch. One stops the kidneys from working,

(50:52):
that's antimony, and the other disintegratesthe bones. That's why they never
found out. Fuck man. Hisaunt Wynn broke the stunned silence by asking
how could he have had the nerveto go with his father to collect the
death certificate knowing what he'd done.He replied, because they would never have

(51:16):
found out. I wasn't stupid enoughto give them both the same. Daddy's
symptoms were different, and if hedied, people would just have thought he'd
pined away because of Molly's death butI am sorry for all I've done.
That comes back to what we weretalking about in the first episode, the
ability to distance himself from being caughtby using different poisons on different people.

(51:39):
Is that that ability to like,I don't want to use the premeditation as
a term, but he's literally thinkingabout what he's doing, Yeah, and
putting a lot of thought into itas well. Yeah, considerable amount thought
of an obsessive, terrifying Yeah itis. This was also the first time

(52:00):
time, though, that he'd admittedto anybody that he'd actually killed his stepmother's
So that's the first point where yeah, okay, And it was probably a
good thing that his father wasn't thereto see his son confess to killing his
wife. Yeah, I mean,I think that's probably a good thing in
every scenario that that happens in.Yeah, and even with this bombshell,

(52:22):
his family still felt they couldn't condemnhim, and they would continue visiting throughout
his long stay in Broadmoor. Okay, I've got a literally my brain's firing,
man, Like, you know,you understand why somebody visits the family
in jail when they've done something likeif you get locked up for I don't
know. I don't know. I'mpicking something out there, like knock somebody

(52:45):
down with a car or something likethat. You can understand that there's no
malice in that, in that act. But in this case, the boy
has been constant malice. Yeah.It has been a case of every time
he's issued a rain or three grainsor whatever, he's been looking for an
outcome, and the outcome has culminatedin the death of two people at this

(53:08):
point, one person at this oneperson at this point. But it's been
it's been seeking, it's been constantlyseeking for for more and more reaction,
almost like how far can I pushthis and that? To then go down
the line of oh why why myfamily. I'm not putting words in his

(53:30):
mouth, but I would expect hewould think that his family would continue to
visit him. But the family doingthat is mad. I've spoken around in
a circle there, but you knowwhat I mean, and exactly what you
mean. I find it hard tocomprehend as well. Now, although his
stay at Broadmoor was lengthy, italso certainly wasn't long before he was implicated

(53:51):
in the death of a fellow patient. Oh yeah, riddlely this Alistair John
Berridge was an absolute upcase, tobe honest. He was formerly an RAF
officer stationed in West Germany. However, during his incredibly stressful time there in
the mid fifties, he snapped andwhile on leave at his parents' house in
South Wales, he told his parentsthat he was a traitor, that he'd

(54:15):
been approached by Soviet agents and thathe had sold confidential information to them for
sums of money. Just some somesome summerdy a bag, not even a
mounts. They just gave him thesums on paper. Shit joke. Carry
on now. John Berridge's father reactedby threatening to expose his son to the
government. I'll tell the old governmentabout you. John Berridge reacted by taking

(54:40):
a twelve bore shotgun and shooting hismother and father in their own bedroom.
Fucks. This escalated there. Forhis crimes, he was sentenced to Broadmoor
in the summer of nineteen fifty nine. PTSD gone mad. Yes it's a
terrible crime. But in August ofnineteen sixty t to the crime which might

(55:00):
very well have seen him sentenced todeath was snoring right, and the judge
dury and executioner might have been theyoungest patient in Broadmore, The Boy,
the Boy, our patient. TheBoy wrote letters to all of his family
frequently, except for his father Fred. Well, we know he was.

(55:21):
He was a writer. Like notnot in the I'm writing fucking a novel
of that, but he was.He did try writing novels, but it
did not work. Terrible, notgreat, No any that you could read,
no, no, okay, butwe know he had jotters and daughters
full of observations. Yeah, sohe was. He was somebody who would

(55:43):
actively take notes. Yes, hewas someone who would actively take notes.
And he actively wrote to all ofhis family. That doesn't surprise me that
that. Yeah, that seems quitefrequently on par Yeah. In these letters,
he complains bitterly for some weeks,just after his admission about the love
snoring of another patient, John Berridge, and of his fury being kept awake.

(56:05):
I mean, we've all had this, like you had it sleeping in
a hostel with you. I don'tsnore, Alistair, you don't. It's
right. It's true. You werein a hostel with Sarah last week.
It might have been her. Shedoesn't snore, she says, and I
have to believe her, because apparentlyI punched her in the night last night.
We'll get to that story after thepodcast. You're going to jail boy

(56:29):
anyway. On the sixth of Augustnineteen sixty two, John Berridge was found
unconscious on his bed. He wouldn'trecover, and his autopsy found cyanide in
his stomach. Where the fucks aregetting cyanide for him? Broad More,
He must have ingested the poison atdinner the previous night. But my question
stands, it's a good question.How could any patient get cyanide inside broad

(56:52):
More to either poison another inmate orto commit suicide? Yeah, well,
I mean famously cyanide capsules that weregiven to the RAF was it not.
It was during the Second World War. They were given one capsule that if
they got caught, bite it.Fucking that's you. Yeah. Well,
one possibility A still was discovered atthe back of a vegetable plot a broad

(57:15):
More. It was believed at thetime that it must have been used to
try to distill moonshine or booze ofsome kind, but it could very well
have been used to distill the laurelbushes which grew prolifically in the hedges,
and which contain quite large amounts ofcyanide. Is that right? Excuse my
arguments on this entirely, but youcan. You can. You can get

(57:37):
a cyanide from Laurel. You canget cyanide from Laurel. I'm not going
to tell anybody which part of theplan please do anything like that, but
it can be done. Now.The boy would have known how to do
this, and in all honesty,he'd probably very probably done it himself with
his chemistry set, just to seeif he could. He'd probably done it
four or five years previous to thatwhen he got his gift from his dad.

(57:59):
That was a stupid idea. Yeah. Now, administering the dose would
actually have been relatively simple since theyall ate in a large communal eating hale.
Yep. But despite suspicions, JohnBerridge's death was listed as suicide.
Of course, it was because hedistilled his own cyanide and put it in
his own meal. They never questionedhow he got the cyanide, although I've

(58:22):
not written it, but an inmatethat he stayed with did after his release
say that John Berridge had said thatthe Soviets had snuck cyanide into him.
Yeah, but he can't take hisword for that, he's already gone.
He's a nutcae. Yeah. Idon't know if we can use the word
nutcase al but he's let's say he'sgone. He's gone. Okay, Yeah,

(58:44):
I mean I'll leave it in,but yeah, fuck, it's he's
a nutcase. So the boy wasin Broadmoor for years, not fifteen years,
but years. So he didn't dohis full fifteen years. Wouldn't do
his full fifteen years since okay,but he wasn't BroadWare for years. And
there is a wealth of information whichwe don't have time to cover tonight.

(59:07):
Anyone who's looking to read up onthis. Caroline Lee does a fantastic book
which I've been referencing slightly tonight.I was going to ask you you've you've
quoted most of your your quotes fromthe trial and the experts have come from
a specific book that you've had infront of me. It looks a lovely
book, actually, Carol An Leea Passion for Poison. It is very

(59:29):
good. It's very in depth,right, and you would recommend it to
I would highly recommend anybody who wantsto know more about this case to absolutely
pick it up. Check it out. Yeah, you can get it in
all local bookshops. That's right.Don't get it from Amazon because we're against
that. Apparently, now, inthe beginning, there was little, if

(59:49):
any, discernible change in the boy'scharacter, his habits, or his obsession.
He continued to idolize Hitler, andhe made himself a swastika to wear
around his neck. Of course,they did into Wagner continuously in the common
room, despite frequent complaints from otherpatients. I mean, I'm not against
listening to Wagner, not constantly,though not constantly. Mix it up with

(01:00:09):
a bit. It's the constantly,constantly. It's like a Guantanamo Bay thing.
It's just like drip fed into yourStop playing me the Rhine Gold.
Name another another Wagner tune, Gono Right of the Valkyries. But that's
in the Rhine Gold. I wasgonna say, I was gonna say,

(01:00:30):
it's the same, it's the sametheme. Yes, I can't even remember
what the other two that operas inthe Rhinegold trilogy were called. Along was
the Rhine Gold. I had rightedthe Valkyries in my head, and is
what I was thinking. But nevermind, we'll move away from a lack
of Wagner knowledge. It's very minimalor Wagner knowledge. He also made few

(01:00:53):
friends or acquaintances, and he mostlykept to himself, reading what medical journals
he could get and what socialist literaturehe could find, such as William Shearer's
The Rise and Fall of the ThirdReich and The Scourge of the Swastika by
Lord Russell. So he never losthis love of the Nazis. Never lost
his love of the Nazis. It'slovely to have something that runs through your

(01:01:15):
entire life, though, isn't it. Ye, mine's been Pokemon. His
was Nazis very different yours is.I don't know if it's less and more
harmful, but that's a debate foranother time. Alistair, it's both in
slavery. Let's just put it outway. Oh, there's a big debate
there for the Patreon episode, anepisode of the Nazis versus Pokemon. Yeah,

(01:01:38):
okay, what's done more harm theNazis or Pokemon? No? No,
it's definitely the Nazis, obviously,But it's been interesting topic. I
mean, it's it's shaped both ofus in many ways, but we'll leave
it. It has following his admissionand for some months after it. It
is recorded that the boy was withdrawnand emotionally unmovable. He was prone to
expressing paranoid ideas, and he alsoexperienced hallucinations prior to falling asleep at night.

(01:02:04):
He would be examined and questioned andtreated by numerous medical professionals, obviously
during the eight year stay that hehad at Broadmore, but the psychiatrist in
charge of his case at the beginningwas doctor Edgar Udwin. He noted that
his behavior became so deviant that hehad to be moved from admission ward to

(01:02:30):
Monmouth House, and there he remaineda center of disaffection for a very considerable
time. His small size and hisyouth led him to ferment disorder in nonviolent
ways in order to preserve some sortof prominence. He was always in small
bits of mischief, always threatening toconcoct the most horrifying poisons. Because he

(01:02:52):
had learned that this upset patients andstaff. He even talked about black magic
to the more impressionable patients, upsetthem even further. He formed alliances,
but always with older and rather stupidmen whom he could influence. At one
point he participated in sending me amessage regarding the ease with which nicotine could

(01:03:13):
be got out of cigarettes and usedas a poison. At a later stage,
he got amongst a group of psychopathsand had to be warned not to
stir up mischief, and finally hehad to be removed from them. He
found himself a bunch of guys.I was like, shall we stir this

(01:03:34):
spot? He got amongst a groupof psychopaths, bob like, I like
to think of this as like aflock of them like sheep. Oh yeah,
And he got amongst them. Hesent out is a psychopath dog to
ring round them up, and thenjust stood in the middle and went,
let's make some mischief. Boys.I sounded way more gay pornal than I

(01:03:55):
thought it was. Camper. Yeah. Absolutely wow. The boy acted out
in other ways as well. Whilehe was in broad More. He was
found on more than one occasion teachingor instructing other inmates on how to make
poisons. Like and I don't knowhow many times we have to say this.

(01:04:16):
We never like to put perpetrators ona pedestal in any way, but
boy smart, he's a high functioning, very intelligent It was so bad sociopath
to be the youngest inmate in broadMore and be around people who were unstable

(01:04:39):
mentally ill and control them is anincredible Like it's terrified for a fourteen fifteen
year old boy. Yeah, LikeI remember being fourteen fifteen. I couldn't
control myself, never mind the peoplearound you. Just I couldn't control you.
No, you tried. I justfind it like, I don't want

(01:05:00):
to glorify it. I think it'sthe word I'm looking for. I don't
want to do that. But likethe fact that he had that ability,
he must have had some presence insome charisma. He would have had charisma.
Yeah, in a different time,it's quite possible he would have been
a cut leader. It's kind ofwhat I was thinking, Like he was
obsessed with leadership really, like youtake my camp in his studies of that

(01:05:24):
and the Nazi Party, he wasclearly and actually the more I think about
it just now, and I'm literallythinking out loud, here is testing and
bringing back and testing and bringing backthat I can do whatever I want.
I have the power to control exactlyeverything around me. That's the power that's
really terrifying. Yeah, and itis cult like it is. You know,

(01:05:45):
you look at people like Jim Jonesand stuff like and we'll never cover
them because we are not in thatgenre. But these people love that power
of do what I say, don'tdo what I say, do what I
say, don't do what I say. Yeah, And that is essentially what
he's doing. He's doing it withtiny bits of poison and then life knowledge,
and that is actually probably more terrifyingthan It's not as bad as the

(01:06:10):
murder that he's committed, but it'sreally like if he has frightening, yeah,
exactly, and if he hadn't beenlocked up, what would have happened.
I don't know. I don't wantto know. I don't Yeah,
I don't want to think about itall. I'm sorry to interrupt. That's
all that at all. Another occasionwhich you'll probably enjoy. Staff noticed that
a lot of the other patients wereshowing the symptoms of intoxication. They're having

(01:06:32):
a good night now since no alcoholor unprescribed drugs were allowed, and investigation
was launched, which discovered that theboy had macguivered the gas stove in the
canteen to dispense carbon monoxide into thedrinks. He was making some sick ass

(01:06:53):
cocktails The escaping carbon monoxide from thedoctor drinks caused euphoria and inebriation and near
death. Probably, yeah, inlarge amounts. Yeah, I just like
I say, I don't want toI don't want to put him anywhere near
a pedestal. But like I said, we're not putting We're not putting on

(01:07:15):
a pedestal. Man. Like,Like, I'm a forty one year old
man, I have no idea howa fourteen year old no, got to
that level of ability. Like youknow, I've been I've been good at
a few things in my life,but never to this level. It's just
insane to me that we can talkabout somebody who is a child essentially,

(01:07:38):
Yeah, he is a child havingthat fourteen years old. Yeah, it's
a bad boy. Yeah, it'swild. Now. By nineteen sixty three,
Fred Young had begun visiting his son. He turned a leaf. Yeah,
But the next few years would seelittle change in the boy who was
also his son. This wasn't forlack of treatment. During these years,

(01:08:01):
the boy was on a constant cocktailof sedatives, and he may have received
less than conventional treatments as well.I can't actually remember whether he did or
not, but I remember reading thatthey wanted to electroshock therapy, and I
hope not. I just can't rememberif they did. I hope not,
because it's that's nonsense, absolute bollocks, and we know it. In nineteen

(01:08:24):
sixty six, Dr Woodwin would takeover as the boy's official psychiatrist, and
after a rocky start and a fewstandoffs, the beginnings of real progress seem
to be being made by the endof sort of nineteen sixty seven, at
which point he's been in broad Morefor five years. Five years at this
point, yeah, five years,so the majority of his stays already passed,

(01:08:45):
but they're starting to make roads.Yeah. From his point of view,
a third of his stay is gone. Yes, because he thinks he's
in there for fifteen years. Hedoesn't know he's getting out exactly. But
there were still incidents as well,though I'm sorry before the fact that it's
taken a third of his perceived sentenceto make some inroads, to make any

(01:09:05):
inroad, is mad or even let'snot say make any inroads, let's say
for there to be any perceived changein his character the founder cul de sac.
Yeah, as I said, therewere still instants. He was caught
having poisoned a tea urn with twopackets of soap powders. He didn't give
up, did they, No,he loved poisoning people. He loved poisoning

(01:09:27):
people, and he was gonna stickwith it. But he was talking about
and taking responsibility for his stepmother's death, and his behavior was improving. So
there's been no admission at this point. No right, but not. Everyone
was convinced by the boy's apparent recovery, and another inmate, Joseph Fuller,
said, I saw him many timeswalking on a straight course with eyes staring

(01:09:51):
unseeingly in front of him, andwoe betide any member of staff who had
the misfortune to be in his path. That unfortunate would be bowled over as
if he had never existed. Getthe fuck out my way. He was
obviously suffering from delusions and a pseudosuperiority complex, which had become progressively worse

(01:10:14):
during his growing up period in Broadmore. He'd also become more progressively psychotic and
ambitious in his intention to destroy hisfellow men. It's quite an erudite statement
from an inmate. It is.It's also like very like, it's very
like centering as well, because you'vegot we've acknowledged that his fourteen year old,

(01:10:36):
and we've said he's a child atthis point. But that's like a
part of formatively years. That's that'swhen you are forming who you would be
as an adult. And the factthat he has already made choices beyond what
many of us will ever ever do, Like the seriousness of what he's done
insane. But the fact that he'sthere, as a fourteen year old being

(01:10:58):
looked at as a leader an occasionby adults on more than one occasion,
he's a sufficient figure of authority orleadership that he can ferment dissent his wants
the population of Broadmore, his wantfor power is being like injected. Then
like he's receiving everything he desired.Almost, yeah, pretty much. It

(01:11:23):
doesn't make it good, No,it doesn't. But doctor Oudwin disagreed with
Joseph Fuller. He wrote in nineteensixty nine, towards the end, during
the eighteen months he has been regularlyunder treatment, he has continued to make
progress to the point now where thestaff confidently accept him as improved, and

(01:11:48):
where his relationships with them is entirelychanged. It was noteworthy in a recent
disturbance in the ward. That nursingcomment was emphatic that he was actually spending
hour trying to talk disturbed patients outof further mischief. His relationships with nursing
staff have changed to the point wherethere is now a degree of friendship possible.

(01:12:11):
He will accept rebukes and not sulkmore often than not, and where
he has achieved a good working relationshipwith the handicraft instructors. There is no
doubt in anyone's mind that he hasmade vast progress recently, progress from a
fairly far gone point, progress froma far going point. And also,

(01:12:32):
if we're thinking of him as somewhereon the sociopathic psychopathic range, then he's
going to be very very good atmanipulating people. In fact, his own
doctors have noticed that he forms relationshipsand friendships with people who are easier for

(01:12:55):
him to manipulate an influence. Ohyeah, he I mean he picks his
victims in his crowd very well.Yeah, he'll be very good. And
now he's been observing for five orsix years, Yeah, he will have
seen who's weak, not just who'sweak, he will have seen the kind
of behaviors that get people released Okay, yes, sorry, I see what

(01:13:19):
you mean. Yeah, So youthink in this scenario, he's fully capable
of going if I do this,I can get out. Yes, I
do. I think if he Ithink he is intelligent enough and has now
been observing enough that he will beable to say, if I do this,

(01:13:40):
I will get out. If Ido this, I will get kicked
in. And I would ask yourselfand listeners to excuse my ignorance in this,
because I would imagine that some ofthe people around him will have been
much more adult than him one percent. Yes, he was in there with
full adults, but they'd have beenstupider then almost all of them. There

(01:14:01):
will have been one or two inmatesthat we were one or two inmates in
Broadmore who were highly intelligent. Therewere other doctors who've been convicted of poisoning,
yes, of course, but theywere few and far between. Ninety
nine percent of the patients in broadMore would have been less intelligent than them.
Yes, stupid was a strong wordthat I shouldn't have used there.

(01:14:24):
But do you think he knew hisplace in the hierarchy of the root of
the ward as such? Yes,I think he knew it, and relished
in it, right, Okay,And that's I mean, as I said
before, he's literally getting what hewanted. It's just not where he wanted.
Yeah. Yeah, I just like, honestly, we've talked cases before

(01:14:46):
where you sparkled my brain about differentthings. This one's actually hurting my brain
because I'm really sad and like impressedisn't the right word, but like,
he wasn't an idiot in any way, but I'm really sad about the scenario
that we get to To get tothis, it's very strange. You're right.
If his obsession had been turned intosomething else, I han't been focused

(01:15:11):
on poisons, or could have been, if he'd found the right level of
chemistry to do things on them,if he'd been founded in the natural world
or looking for fucking the tree thatsolves cancer or whatever, this could very
well have been a Nobel Prize winner. It's exactly what I was thinking.
Yeah, all had different choices ordifferent incidents happened at points in his life,

(01:15:33):
and that's one of the things thatI find fascinating about. I mean,
I fully understand why this has beenone that has ended up in two
and a half three and a halfhours almost of recording this evening. But
I just that's the bit that I'mstruggling with most, is that he just
desired power. And if he hadn'tjust desired power, if he'd uses if

(01:15:54):
you use your knowledge for good,whatever fucking action film you want that to
be, if he'd uses knowledge ina different way. So I'm speaking really
quickly because I'm quite enjoying this.If you use this knowledge base, that
he'd gone a horrible way in adifferent direction. Yeah, it could have
been a noble person. It couldhave been a cure for cancer. It
could have been the end of theage's epidemic before it even happened. Who

(01:16:15):
knows what it would have been becausehe was looking so intently at the detail.
Yeah, but what we end upwith is a failed serial poisoner in
a hospital where he should have beenin jail in my opinion, because he
was given too much freedom in oursecure hospital. He was he was still

(01:16:40):
allowed to take books out from theBroadmore Library with impunity. So he was
still reading medical journals and I'm pharmaceuticaland Nazi diary journals and Nazi diaries and
you know, the diary of KaiservilleHeilm the second and stuff. These were
all available for him in Broadmore.I mean, I would like to have

(01:17:03):
them removed from the broad or libraryin the first instance. But it's just
we've talked about cases before where thepeople are highly intelligent. We've talked about
who is the infanticide in Edinburgh,Jesse King. Jesse King was not a

(01:17:24):
dumb woman. Now she was lookingfor now she went the wrong way,
obviously, But this seems like almosta step beyond anything we've talked about like
this. This kid was mad smart, yes, but readimbly smart, really
not looked after, looked after,and he's had a number of traumas in

(01:17:47):
his early childhood which have affected himgreatly. Who knows which affected him most
or whether some affected him at all, but he's come out abnormal. Yeah,
it's really yeah, I think you'vethis is my most there's a couple
of sparklers going off in my mindat the moment. I mean, it's

(01:18:08):
really I look forward to episode threealistair because I don't know where we can
go from here, to be honest, that's going to be a good one.
But anyway, the perceived improvement inthe boy's condition continued, and by
July of nineteen seventy, He himselfwrote in a letter to his sister Winnifred,
my dearest win many apologies from yourwicked, neglectful brother for failing to

(01:18:31):
write to you for such an unconscionablylong time. I really haven't had anything
remotely interesting to write to you.And besides, when I think back on
some of the mind bending, utterlybannal monologues which I've written to you in
the past, I rather think thatmy omission maybe counted a virtue rather than
a sin. I have, however, some good news to import to you.

(01:18:53):
I had an interview with the estimableEdgar last Friday, and he told
me whether or not a formal recommendationhas yet gone in, I have had
several conversations with the Home Office aboutyou, and I have got things moving
at their end. He also said, I'm going to discharge you in the
latter half of this year. Asyou see from my quotes, the pot

(01:19:15):
is now almost boiling. Just thinkwhen another few months and your friendly neighborhood
Frankenstein will be at liberty once again. I love a Marvel quote, Your
friendly neighborhood Frankenstein. That's a weirdthing to write. That's a wonderful thing
to write. Actually, I reallyenjoy that. It's a weird one.

(01:19:36):
Many apologies from your wicked, neglectfulbrother. My Frankins sense is tingling sounds
almost marvel biblical, it does.Yeah. Fuck now, this shows how
confident really the boy was that hisrelease was imminently likely, and in fact,

(01:19:56):
medical staff at Broadmoor had already spokento Winifred about her brother's release and
where he would stay, whether he'dbe staying with her. He would not,
he would not. She would havehim for a weekend, and she
did actually have him for a weekendChristmas nineteen seventy, the Christmas before his
release, he was on partial releaseand he spent it at his family's house,

(01:20:17):
and from all accounts he seemed farbetter, apart from drinking quite a
lot. He did return to broadMore promptly, and not long after it.
On the fifteenth of January, drUdwin would pen what would become a
famous, or at least infamous medicalcertificate. But Winifred would not have him
in her house for a long periodof time, but she was welcome to

(01:20:38):
have him. She was happy tohave him for a weekend. Yeah,
but she did not want him livingwith her upon her release. It should
be mentioned she now had two childrenof her own. Oh okay, so
she definitely didn't want him there forthat reason. No, exactly. It
was a case of you can youcan stop gap here, but fix your
own life. Yes, R onehundred percent. Now, before we get

(01:21:01):
to the end, this document thatdr Udwin penned, I'll read it because
it will become very pertinent in thenext episode. I think it will be
called Exhibit Twouber two at this secondtrial will cover in episode three a second
trial. Oh you tease as muchalistair I do, indeed, But for

(01:21:25):
now. On the fifteenth of Januarynineteen seventy one, dr Udwin wrote,
this man has suffered a deep goingpersonality disorder, which necessitated his hospitalization throughout
the whole of his adolescence. Hehas, however, made an extremely full
recovery and is now entirely fit fordischarge, his sole disability now being the

(01:21:48):
need to catch up on his losttime. He is capable of undertaking any
sort of work without any restrictions asto his residence, travel or environment.
His natural bent is towards the nonmanual and clerical and in the first instance,
he would do extremely well training asa storekeeper. He is of above
average intelligence and capable of sustained effort. He would fit in well and not

(01:22:12):
draw any attention to himself in anycommunity. Signed Edgar l would win consultant
psychiatrist and yes, at a subsequenttrial in episode three, that will be
exhibited as exhibit two. It's amassive underselling of him. Like he's capable
of being a store clerk, he'scapable of being a pharmacist. Yes,

(01:22:36):
he's not qualified to be a pharmist. He's not qualified, but he's also
but he's capable of doing way morethan that. But with this document,
the boy Fred Young's son and Winnifred'sbrother would be released back into society in
nineteen seventy one. And that iswhere we'll leave this story this week until

(01:23:00):
the next part, episode three,when we will see why he earns the
name the teacup poisoner. A coupleof things before we move on the fact
that you're going to leave me withessentially three hours of podcast recordings this evening
and we're not finished it. It'shilarious. You're a dick. We have
to come back to who. Wehaven't clarified heny many more episodes yet you're

(01:23:25):
a dick two probably it would stopdoing probably at the end of very fucking
sentence. Man, Honestly, don'tthink I've I don't think you've done a
case in the last maybe six monthsor so where I've gone tell me more
as much as this one. You'vedone a couple of cases obviously in the

(01:23:45):
past where I've gone, n Ali, come on, let's keep going.
We've only done eight minutes or whatever, but keep going. Yeah, three
hours? Getting that a lot?No idea? How many times Sarah says
that I will leave that to yourwonderful marriage up and coming three hours in.
I'm not finished with this, soI don't feel you are. I'm

(01:24:06):
not, definitely not. We havean episode and a Patreon still so before
we finished, because we do haveto finish up, because this is that's
two hour and a half recordings thatwe don't tend to do this long in
a podcast. I'm happy to doit. Is it okay to think,
having listened to your and you've donea whole lot more research than I've done

(01:24:29):
listening to you this evening? Isit all right for me? To think
that boy's smart as fuck and justgot let down, because I think that's
where it might be where I'm at. I really think so. I think
in a different time even this wouldn'thave happened. There's a lot of headshaking
going on behind you right now.I don't think. I don't think it

(01:24:50):
would have happened today. I thinksigns of his problems would have been spotted,
yeah, today in away that theyjust weren't back then. I'm not
saying that there wasn't going to bemalice always. We talked about the I
can't remember that the McDonald trifector,they pissing the bed, they're hurting the

(01:25:14):
animals, and I can't remember thatthey're not sleeping or whatever. The third
one is, I can't remember whenit is off the top of my head,
and he takes enough of those boxesto go. This is an issue
we should deal with and have athink about. But then at the time
frame, I wouldn't have bought myfucking chemistry set no when he was distilling
shit in the garden. But wouldI I don't know if I would.

(01:25:39):
Now. I come back to whatwe said ten fifteen minutes ago, not
pedestaling them at all. No,we're not. Because everything he did,
from testing fucking poisons on his palsto his mum and his dad and everybody
else horrific, like pissing the windhorrific. But dude was smart. It

(01:26:01):
was incredibly smart and could have beenused in different ways. If found and
directed and educated and nurtured properly,that obsession could have been directed down a
different avenue early. Yeah, Ithink that's my takeaway. But then again,
there is obvious malice within his mindthere. And as much as we've

(01:26:28):
talked on fucking however, many episodeswe've done together and the ones I've done,
we've deened before, we've had abad Bastard list and twisted Britain throughout
the whole thing, And I struggleto place him on a bad bastard list.
I wouldn't because of his age.I think it is not just his
age. I think because for methis is this is a developmental problem.

(01:26:56):
I suppose it is because of hisage, Yeah, But because of his
age, this is developmental problem.This is not a problem he's had in
later life, once his personality hasbeen formed. This is something that happened
to him early. It's not somebodyin the thirties making decision to do something
exactly. Let's leave it there untilthe next episode. Until the next episode.

(01:27:24):
However, if you have listened tothis and you fundamentally disagree with what
Alistair and I have just said,please do let us know, because yeah,
I'm going to be looking at thecomments. I think this makes me.
Yes, she does, and rightfullyso, I think this is a
perfect point to put out this becausewe've said it before, but I think
this is fundamentally the essence of whatwe're talking about here. Ali and I

(01:27:46):
are not experts in true crime.We're not experts in psychology. We're not
experts in in criminology ever claimed tobe, and never will do. We
tell you a story, and wealways have claimed to tell a story.
We don't tell cases because we don't. We don't have that background and that
knowledge in the area. When youlisten to us telling you a podcast,
it's basically one of us as wesearch something and the other one is just

(01:28:10):
bouncing off what we're hearing. Sowe could fundamentally be wrong in every episode,
and we're happy to be told sobecause and we have been. We've
been wrong before, been wrong,and we'll be wrong again. However,
our opinions are genuine on the pointof recording. We may change our mind
in twenty minutes, and in whichcase I'll fucking stick on the internet.

(01:28:30):
However, but if you've just listenedto the same three hours as I have,
bearing in mind that I listened tothis from blank, and you think
Bob's talking absolute fucking nonsense. Heusually is, I usually am. Please
do tell us like I'd love toknow, because there's no point in us
hiding the fact that we're not pretendingthat we know what we're talking about.

(01:28:51):
Now, what I would love isto promote discussion. Yes, I think
that. Do you know what?Fuck off we're done? Abscribe to social
media's reviewers wherever you can promote discussion. Thank you, love you bye,
Thank you love you bye, thankyour fewbye. I can hear yourself than

(01:29:14):
call you bye.