Episode 107 - TheTeacup poisoner - Part 3

In the 3rd instalment of the Teacup trilogy  in 4 parts, Ali and Bob look at the crimes of the man known as the teacup poisoner committed after his release from the Broadmoor medical facility in 1971, while working for John Hadland Laboratories.

Episode Transcript

(00:35):
Hello and welcome. Hello, andwelcome Toist Britain, the podcast and True
Ground in Britain with a sprinkling theWeird in the Cab and your hosts am
Bubdale and me Ali Downey. Idon't really know what happened at the beginning,
Alie, I just kind of forgothow to speak. That's happened quite
a lot tonight, it has,hasn't it. This is our second episode
recording of this evening, and likeI didn't even finished my first part and

(00:55):
I couldn't talk earlier. Bob's hadsome problems with ashes to some problem.
T measures doesn't make a It's nota great problem for a podcaster to have
at the beginning of a recording.But we'll get there. But best solution
and cure I have for it isyou telling me a case. That's exactly
what's gonna happen. We are onpart trays, that's right, we're on

(01:23):
part three of the what I havebeen calling the Teacup Poisonou trilogy. Before
we get on to part three,however, I'd just like to bring us
back to a moment not five minutesago Alistair, where you said the beautiful
folk folklorish words that there are nofairies in Scandinavia because they're too cold.

(01:47):
Yeah, they all died of cold. We learned that there's no tooth fairies
Scandinavia. They only have a toothtroll, which I prefer tooth troll if
I'm being honest, Yeah, becauseyou can imagine a troll collecting teeth.
They're kind of my I've always wonderedwhat does the tooth fairy do with all
the teeth? That's a weird,weird thing in it. It is.

(02:08):
Anybody who's interested should read Tell YourPractice the Hog by wonderful, wonderful book.
Oh, I'll tell you what Iwas listening to say before we go
any further on to teake up Partthree. I've been listening a lot to
Custy Young's new podcast Young Again,and she interviews famous people and basically the
premise of the show is what wouldyou tell your younger self given the knowledge

(02:30):
you have now? And I likethat premise as a thing, but the
don't do it just yeah, no, just go with no. But it
was Philip Pullman that was the intervieweeof his Dark Materials, of his Dark
Materials and telling us about his lifeand that, but he's such a consummate

(02:53):
professional that he managed to end upinterviewing Cirsty Young halfway through. I just
I love it, and you're sittingthere going, there's two wonderful sets of
voices, and I listened to thaton the walk up to me and you.
So I shall not compare us towhat we've listened to this evening.
No, don't. Anyway, You'vegot some more horribleness. I've got,

(03:15):
I've got I've got the next partin this what I'm now gonna have to
call them ani series because the trilogyhas become at least a quadrology. What's
after quadrology? Quintology? Quintology?Yeah, synchology, synchology. I don't
know if you know. Actually,sure, let us know. Let us
know in the comments section, becauseit might turn into that. It might

(03:36):
do, and you give us arecap of where we're at. I can't.
Indeed, let's let's be right first, have a quick recap of where
we left the story of the TeacupPoisoner. As a young boy from the
age of eleven to thirteen, hehad experimented on his friends and family by
poisoning them with non lethal doses ofvarious poisons and then finally killing his stepmother,

(03:59):
although he was never actually charged forher murder. And the bit that
I would just add to that fromthe and I only know this case from
what you've told me, so Idon't know the ends of this case.
Alan at the bar, I toldhim what we were about to record,
and he was like, oh,this is I can't believe this happened.
And I went, I haven't heardthe ends yet, and I have deliberately
not looked this one up at all, and you still won't have heard the

(04:19):
end by the end of this episode. Great. The bit that I would
add to that, though, isit wasn't just it wasn't poisoning people with
non lethal doses. The bit thatsticks in my head was it was almost
self synthesized poisons. He was refiningthings to to create poisons. Yes,
it was. And then he wasdoing human trials. Yes, it's not

(04:42):
just a case of non lethal doses. He was trying a bit more,
a bit more, a bit more, and then helping people get well again.
And then bam, that's the bitthat's mad. It is wild,
and that's that's where my memory ofthe last couple of episodes is at so
it was very, very wild.It was done to satisfy the boys obsession
with poisons and with toxicology. Hewas charged with poisoning his family and friends,

(05:04):
although not the murder of stepmother,and the boy was sentenced to fifteen
years in the Broadmore Medical Facility.While he was a patient in broad More,
he was diagnosed and treated for variousneuropsychiatric disorders. He was very intelligent,
but he had no moral sense orany sense of empathy whatsoever, which

(05:25):
was evidence by the way he coldlytested poisons on his friends and his family,
which would actually leave his father withlifelong health issues. And he had
ended up killing his stepmother as well. And the killing of the stepmother was
deliberate. That was deliberate and premeditated. Now, after eight years of treatment,
he was declared mentally cured and fitfor release by Broadmoor's head psychiatrist dr

(05:49):
Udwin. Not rehabilitated, mentally cured, mentally cured. It's a very interesting
choice of words. There's documentation thathe was cured cured, that's the word
in us. So they believed hewas sick mentally unwell. Yeah, it
brieves. He was suffering for all, a psychiatric disorder is it, but

(06:12):
it was a curable disorder or acontrollable disorder. Controllable. Controllable is probably
a better word, but yeah,mental it is. Now. The patient
was released back into society in nineteenseventy one. However, looking back at
the evidence now, it seems obviousthat the patient was not in fact cured.
His obsession with poisons remained, alongwith a number of other disturbing behaviors

(06:33):
that really should have been spotted atthe type. Yeah, but then I
suppose if you're if you're announcing thatsomebody is mentally cured, you're probably not
the best of places to make actualjudgments. It's true. Now we're going
to pick up the story right fromthe time that he was let out a
broad More on the fourth of Februarynineteen seventy one. It's so close to

(06:58):
now. Yes, First, hespent two days with his sister Winifred,
as you would, before he movedon to stay in Slough. He was
released initially into a sort of formerfelon training scheme for the reformed, where
he could learn a trade and throughwhich he could also find a job like

(07:18):
a What did they call when hecome out of the army, you get
a something reentorship. No, it'slike a it's a word. It'll come
to me at some point. Butthat pays for you to go and retrain
to do something exactly. It's likean out capital to get you on your
way. Yeah, you're exactly rightnow. The training center was in Slough

(07:41):
and he would live in an affiliatedhostel for the duration of his time there.
Okay. He moved in to thehostel on the sixth of February,
and he immediately struck up a friendshipwith a fellow resident, Trevor Sparks.
Affiliated hostile being a hostel that peoplewho stayed while they were doing this training

(08:01):
course. Oh so it wasn't astop gap from jail out or anything.
It was solely to do with thistraining sentence training center, and the pair
struck up an instant rapport and thetwo men shared a bottle of wine together
on his first night at the hostel. Lovely. That very night, Trevor
Sparks was woken in the night byterrible stomach cramps, volleting and diarrhea,

(08:24):
accompanied by severe pain in his testicles. May I speculate yes, has he
been poisoned. Yes, he hasthe symptoms persisted for five days with sparks,
unable to finish the game of footballdue to further pains in his abdomine.
And when an Englishman gives up football, you know it's serious. He

(08:45):
retired to play cricket. Yeah,I don't know what that means, but
they are now this was this wasthe first instance of poisoning ever, No,
since they really our patient. Sothis is a there's been a gap
of forty eight hours. It tookjust over forty eight hours for the man

(09:09):
to become a poisoner again from releasefrom release and begin administering talksins to people
to satisfy his own curiosity and ecoAnd how long was he in for?
Eight years? So he's just satfor eight years going gonna poison someone else.
Yeah, And for the last fewyears of his time in broad Wore,

(09:31):
he was fooling the administrators and psychiatristsinto making them think that he was
fit for release. Well, wedid talk about this in the one of
the previous episodes. He wasn't dumb, no, incredibly intelligent, very intelligent
man. And I'm not giving propsto them at all, but like the
facts of the matter are like theability to not synthesize the drugs I used

(09:52):
the wrong word earlier, but refinethe drugs, find the drugs to a
certain e scent. Manufacturer of thedrugs. He was ta reaching people in
the broad more medical facility to growbochialism. Of course it was, there's
a level there, but like,he's obviously also smart enough to convince parole

(10:13):
to let him out, and thenhe's just literally gone, ah, yeah,
poison again, yeah instantly. Nowthe man would be at the training
center and therefore at the hostel forthree months while he learned industrial storekeeping.
During this time, a worrying numberof residents showed up with unexplained illnesses,

(10:37):
a total of five men and onewoman, many of whom had symptoms which
should have and would now raise bigred toxin flags to any doctor, such
as sudden hair loss, and theywould have been on the lookout for it
having given knowing the fact that he'sout of jail. Later investigations could only
actually speculate on what toxin the manwas using this early in his return to

(11:01):
poisoning. His first recorded attempts tobuy deadly control substances were on the seventeenth
of April, when he unsuccessfully triedto buy antiminu potassium tartarate from a chemist
in London on win War Street usinga false name. Wonder what he was
going to use that for, Oho, we'll find out, because on this

(11:22):
occasion the pharmacist, Albert Keane refusedthe man unless he had written reasonable authority
for the purchase. But we're nowcertain that the man has returned fully to
his former behaviors and he's not goingto be deterred so easily. He returns
to John Bell and Croydon's chemist onthe twenty fourth of April, now with
a four hand written note from BedfordCollege, London University authorizing him to buy

(11:43):
twenty five grams of the poisonous chemical. So he came back with the paperwork
that he required forge But yes,oh yes, But he came back with
the paperwork he required. Yes,And this time Albert Keane, the chemist
relents and allows the man to buyit, even though he knows he's refused
them sail before. Yeah, he'scome back with the required documentation. Yeah,

(12:07):
I'd still be a bit wary aboutit. They were selling all sorts
of shit chemical. Then now thispurchase happens coincidentally just before he starts a
new job after the completion of histraining on the seventh of May. This
job will be assistant storekeeper for JohnHadland photographic instrumentation limited with access to chemicals.

(12:31):
Yes, with access to chemicals.But he didn't need access to chemicals,
that's true. But he had accessto chemicals already. Yeah, already
I was thinking dark croom. Shit. But he's already poisoning people. There
is that? Yeah, it isnow. You would have probably loved John
Hadland. Actually they developed high techcamera equipment, mostly for the defense industry.

(12:52):
Oh, yeah, I would beinto that. Yeah. They developed
the world's first camera that could takesix million images per second, which was
actually the world for many years.We're going to say that again. They
developed the world's first camera that couldtake six million images per second. That's
incredibly fast. Is this was theworld record for many years. So I've
used the camera that shoots ten thousandframes a second. Yeah, and you

(13:16):
have to stop down the quality ofthe picture to get it to go that
fast. And we used it tothe film eighteen seventies Pistol Revolver, The
Bullet coming out the end and thesparks and all that kind of stuff.
That's mad mad slow. What areyou saying, six million, six million
per second? I mean it'd takea by an hour and a half to

(13:39):
watch that second back yeah, yeah, well at least I want to do
that. Maths now twenty five framesa second come back to me. It
is a lot. Actually, Iwas watching a documentary the other night showing
off Caltechs magic camera. It takesseventy trillion percon second. See that again,

(14:03):
seventy trillion, seventeen trillion. NowI have to work out hell on
that's going to take to watch backout Now, that's seventy to the power
of twelve for anybody who's interested.I mean I'm slightly interested. But that
is also so fast that they cancapture light waves in motion. Pretty good.
Then some camera I think it's thesize of a small building and it

(14:26):
uses lasers. Anyway, where werewe? Oh? Yeah, the man
now has a job with John HadlinLimited in Bobbingdon as assistant Storman. He
begins on the tenth of May nineteenseventy one. Okay, Bobingdon not to
be mistaken with Bobbington. Where theBadass Tank Museum is? Okay, did

(14:48):
you have to throw up the hornswhen you said badass tak? Yeah?
I enjoyed it, thank you.Now. He was liked by many of
the staff, although they all didnotice his odd habits and his eccentricities,
such as constant reading medical textbooks,and his general lack of empathy, and
his strange interest in Nazism and death. I mean the last two are probably

(15:09):
the worst of that. Yeah.Yeah, do you know six million frames
if you show it one second wouldtake you nearly two years to watch it.
Oh my god. I might havedone that maths wrong if I'm being
honest, But maybe, but we'llgo with it. Yeah, after three
or four beers. Maybe it's weirdly, I think it works out. It's
six hundred and sixty six days.It's the Devil's number. Baby. In

(15:33):
the comment section, please check Bob'smath. Please do. If it was
twenty five frames a second, sixmillion frames is how long? I think
it's the Devil's number in days.Oh god, I think it's worth mentioning
that the man was still receiving regularvisits from a probation officer, Susan Vidal

(15:54):
and less regular follow up visits frombroad Moor's staff, like doctor Minette to
check up on him. Yes,none of these reports suggested any significant change
in the band's behavior, so nothingto be concerned about. He was no
longer a danger to society. Sowhilst he's poisoning, he's still managing to
convince people that he's absolutely fine.Yes, including psychiatrists. It's terrifying.

(16:21):
In his new workplace, the manhad integrated very well into the close knit
family owned company. He seemed tobe enjoying his work, and he was
liked, if not understood, bythe rest of the staff. His boss,
Bob Eagle, found him a hardworking, if a little odd employee.
Great name, good name, NotEagle, just the Bob. But

(16:41):
yeah, you think so, Bob. The man frequently fetched tea for his
co workers from the staff canteen,and on more than one occasion, another
store worker and secretary, Diana Smart, noticed that he always used spoons from
a drawer in the storeroom, andhe was always very careful about putting them
back. Okay, Within a weekof the man starting his new job,

(17:04):
he was already poisoning his coworkers.Of course he was, and so began
a sad series of events quite familiarto anyone who remembers the crimes of his
childhood. One by one, workersand staff at John Hadlin Limited started falling
ill you surprise me massively. Twoof the earliest to feel the effects were

(17:25):
Dorothy and Bob Eagle. This longterm, happily married couple had both been
working for John Hadlin for many years. Dorothy was an administration and Bob was
the head storman, making him theman's directly boss. Okay, directly boss,
direct boss, okay, directly boss, directly boss. Both Bob and

(17:47):
Dorothy had daily contact with and frequentlyaccepted cups of tea from the man when
he offered to trevets them. Oh, I mean, you don't say no
to a cup of tea If somebody'smind net, nobody says no to a
cup of tea. But by Junethe couple had both been suffering violent sickness,
diarrhea, and back in joint painfor weeks, which repeated referrals to
doctors couldn't figure out or effectively treat. Funny that because it's not really diseased

(18:11):
they've got, is it? No, they're suffering from what I'd like to
name coworker poisoning syndrome. Yeah,yeah, that's exactly what it is.
On Friday, the fourth of June, doctor Robert Neville saw Dorothy, who
was bedridden with her joint pain,and he could find no biological cause for

(18:33):
her symptoms, but he did giveher antibiotics on general principle and told Bob
to call him if her symptoms orhis symptoms grew any worse. Here's some
many biotics, because I don't reallyknow what it is that off you trot
and give us a shout if you'resick. Yeah. On Saturday, the
fifth of June. The next day, in fact, the man once again

(18:56):
called in John Bell and Croyden's chemist, this time purchasing thallium acetate as well
as more antimony. I mean,he's got a fair amount of antimony and
thallium now, and thallium. Youmight have to go through what they do
again at some point, but Iknow antimody is bad. Yes, thallium
is very bad as well, verybad heavy metal poison. Okay, I'm

(19:19):
sure you explained it one of theother episodes, but it's been a few
weeks since then, so excuse mydetailed ignorance here, But I'm yeah,
they're both bad. They're both bad, but they're bad in different ways.
It was one of the things healways did. He never poisoned two people

(19:40):
in exactly the same way. Ifhe didn't use it completely different poison,
then he would poison one slowly andone with a huge dose, so they
can be mistaken for different things,mistaken for the Was he data gathering,
Yes, he was absolutely absolutely datagathering and he kept record of that.

(20:00):
Yes, did you have you?You've told me that before, already having
you in the last episode, butyou like it blows my mind. I
just picture like a remember the oldschool school jotters. Yep, the pink
ones, pinky peachy on the outsideyou wrote the name and your class and
that on it. I pictured oneof them that he was hit a table
in it. I don't know ifit was pink, but he had a

(20:22):
school jotter which he kept all therecords of the people he'd poisoned in school
in that's mad. It was experimentation. Yeah, thankfully they didn't get the
year book your books back then.He had just been putting an x three
people. Wow. On the eighthof June. A few days later,
dr Udwin from Broadmore saw the manat an outpatient clinic appointment. During this

(20:47):
follow up appointment, dr Udwin waspleased to see the appearance of his former
patient adjusting well. He would writein one report during a long interview,
he seemed to me entirely well andsome mounting the difficulties of re establishing himself
in an entirely satisfactory manner. Okay, he was not, he was not.

(21:10):
Bob and Dorothy Eagle returned to workafter absence due to their illness on
the tenth of June, but theyfelt so depleted from their recent ordeals that
they decided to take a week's holidayin great Yarmouth to recuperate properly. Fair
They left on the nineteenth of June, and they had a lovely time.
Sounds nice. Bob and Dorothy regainedstrength and had no further additional health issues

(21:33):
while they were in great Yarmouth.It's almost like they were on a mild
cleanse. They were a mild cleanse, but this is obviously probably mostly due
to the fact that they were temporarilynot being poisoned. Yeah, that's what
I mean. I didn't mean thesunshine and the fresh air, and I
meant the lack of poison in theirsystem. Yeah, it's also good for
you. No poison is what thedoctor orders. Yeah. On the twenty

(21:56):
eighth of June, Bobby go returnedto work better than he had for weeks.
He probably felt like a fucking superhero. Yeah. If he suddenly not
got poison in the system, heprobably feels better than he's ever felt before.
So back to work to get poison. Yeah. He wasn't back to
work for long. He returned fromwork that same afternoon with the recurrence with

(22:17):
a vengeance of all his previous symptomsand the appearance of some even worse ones.
On top of the nausea, jointpain, and headaches, Bob was
disorientated, and Dorothy would later recallhe was staggering, just as if he
had had too much drink. Ithink he's allergic to work. Maybe maybe
that's it. Bobby Eagle also hada numbing and tingling in his fingers and

(22:40):
toes. Caring for him through thenight, Dorothy watched his condition worse than
until By morning, Bob couldn't feelhis hands or feet and said that his
lower torso felt numb and ached.Dorothy called a doctor, and doctor Peter
Sparrow arrived at seven am. PeterSparrow's a great name is querid name with
the joy. I like names fromhistory, alistair, I really do.

(23:03):
Doctor Sparrow was very concerned because Bobseemed to be suffering from peripheral neurritis.
He had diminished sensation in his extremitiesand severe weakness of the legs. The
doctor gave Dorothy two tablets of anantibiotic to feed to her husband and told
her to phone him if Bob's deterioratedany further. If he gets worsk he's

(23:25):
a shout exactly. Dorothy had BobEagles swallow the two pills, but he
vomited them back up minutes later,along with a thick black fluid. Not
great, No, it's never goodwhen you vomit tar. Maybe it's good.
Maybe it's good getting out it is. I've had that guinness vomit.
Yeah. Where Yeah, that's notantimony poisoning, that's giddess. Doctor Sparrow

(23:51):
was called back at eight am,just an hour later, and he saw
a marked and distressing decline in Bob'scondition. An ambulance was called and Bob
was rushed to Hemil Hempstead Hospital wherehe was examined by doctor Solomon, who
found that Bob had the same symptomsas before, as well as bilateral facial
weakness and also trouble swallowing and breathing. All of his muscles were giving away.

(24:12):
Yeah. He was transferred to SaintAlbans Hospital, which had better facilities
like respirators for when his lungs gaveout. It feels like a necessity,
yeah, But doctors there had noideas or treatment that hadn't been tried already,
and Bob Eagle continued to deteriorate withhis wife at his hospital bedside.

(24:33):
This is a horrific moment in thispodcast, Alice, So I hope you
know that at the John Hadlins factory, everyone was surprised by the sudden worsening
of Bob Eagle's health. Bob was, before this mystery illness, one of
the fittest people. Many of theworkers knew. He'd previously served in the
Army and he was with the BritishExpeditionary Force that were evacuated from the beach

(24:55):
to the Dunkirk. Oh see,he was a proper soldier. He was
a tough dude. Yeah, andhe kept in shape. He was a
strong, healthy man who had neversuffered a day of illness in his previous
many years of service with the company. Just that two weeks where he was
really ill and then he got reallygood and better than a week when it
comes back. Yeah, Just thosereally short periods. Just the times when
he's been poisoned. Just just thetimes when our perpetrator was that his work.

(25:22):
Yeah. The man responsible for Bob'scondition was kept updated of it through
feigned concern and constant questioning of workerswho had actually visited the hospital and the
manager's secretaries. One of them,Missus Mary Barrow, later recalled his frequent
questioning. She said his inquiries werefrequent. As a rule, he would

(25:44):
stay in chat for a few minutes, and he pressed for all available information.
At one stage, Missus Eagle mentionedthat the illness her husband was suffering
from was polyneuritis. This meant nothingto me, and I think I told
him, and he explained this illnessto me, saying that it was a
virus which caused inflammation of the nervevents. Its questions were always how was
mister Eagle do they know what itis? Is he any better? And

(26:08):
what were the symptoms polyneurytis, polyurytis, a wasting of the nerve vends.
Yeah, I was trying to workthat out of my head. So I
suppose that could be a I don'tknow. I'm just thinking, like,
is that resulting effect of the poison? Like is that a long like has

(26:30):
it has it actually been damaged oris he just impaired by the poison.
It's an effect of the poison,but it's also an effect of other conditions
where it could easily be misdiagnosed thatso it could be it could easily be
thought of as disease X. Yeah, it's definitely poor. It's definitely polynurytis.

(26:52):
The question is is it polynurytis frompoison or polyurytis caused by Jambret syndrome.
Okay, Now, I just wondered, like, is that a It's
it's not a simple hole. It'squite It's quite a diagnosis, is what
I mean. It's quite diagnosis.Speaking that out there in the in the
seventies and saying it's polynierritis, butthen not knowing the facts of the condition's

(27:18):
origin. Is the problem on thecause of the polytis. You're not wrong.
Now. When the man was askingthe secretaries these sorts of questions,
he was asking how fast Bob Eaglewas dying? Right, okay, which
was fast? Pretty quickly? Yeah. At Saint Alban's Hospital, where Bob's

(27:38):
condition was getting worse by the day, his new doctor wrote, mister Eagle
continued to deteriorate. Muscle weakness inthe face and throat became apparent, which
made swallowing difficult. Shortly afterwards,the muscles affecting the breathing became weak,
and at this stage an operation wasperformed on his windpipe, through which a
small tube was inserted and connected toa breathing assisting machine. However, his

(28:03):
condition continued to get worse, witha falling blood pressure and an increase in
the heartbeat. Mister Eagle then developedpneumonia, which added to his other complaints.
So they've done a truckiotomy, they'vedone a trichyomed, but he's going
into complete organ field. He's goingto the krdiac arrest. If his blood
pressures dropped and his heart's working harder, he's about to have a heart attack.

(28:26):
Bob was absolutely right. So thedevastation of his wife of over forty
years, Dorothy Bob Egele was dyingand would pass away on Wednesday, the
seventh of July. Cause of deathwas recorded as broncho pneumonia secondary to gyan
Beret Paulineurytis. But he'd actually beenpoisoned to death, hadn't they He'd actually

(28:48):
been poisoned to death. Bob wasthe first casualty, but by no means
the only victim of this man's obsession. He could and did poison many of
his co workers simultaneously, including thedelivery driver Ron Hewitt, who, like
Bob, had been suffering unexplained bountsof illness which nobody thought could be poisoning.
No chance of that. Luckily,Ron found work as a driver elsewhere

(29:11):
and left John Hadlin's on the ninthof July. By this point, so
many were feeling ill randomly that ithad become known as the Bobbingdon bug.
The Bobbingdon bug is something Alan saidto me down there. Yeah. Yeah.
Meanwhile, on the twelfth of July, the man attended the second funeral
of someone he had killed, thistime Bob Eagle. Bob so his mother

(29:32):
first, yeah, and then Bobsigned out. Bob. Bob was cremated
and his ashes encased in an oakcasket, upon which a plaque was fixed
bearing his name. I don't likethis, Like it feels like you're almost
doing third person about me. It'sso I'm really struggling with this. And
then Bob was cremated. I'm sadfor him, but it's the way you're

(29:56):
looking at me while you say it. With Bob dead, I took over
this podcast. That is generally thenext words though with Bob Dad. No,
the man who killed him was actuallyinstantly promoted John Hadlin limited to that
of head storming head storman. Yeah, I mean I was a head storman

(30:17):
when I started my current work niceand now I'm not. No, i'd
probably be my job car of Yeah, your job was cool. Come on
now, whether he killed him thatis Bobby Eagle, for personal gain or
for curiosity, we will let younever really know. Not many of his

(30:37):
crimes were motivated by any desire toacquire anything, except perhaps the twisted thrill
of the power over someone else.But in this case, the man obviously
did quite well as a result ofhis first murder, since he was released
from Broadmoor six months earlier. Ishe gaining something He's getting a job.

(31:00):
No, he's also gaining I'm gonnago down the line of knowledge like he
Yeah, he knows all the time, but that's satisfying his curiosity. So
I mean, I think what I'vegathered from the two and a half episodes
we've done now is the man wasliterally thirsty for knowledge about I mean a
specific niche specifically niche topic. Yeah, the human resistance to poison. And

(31:25):
he didn't really care who suffered inany way along the route. But it
was knowledge gathering, Yes, andI suppose if you and I won't But
if to pose you that moment,if that's his main goal, then killing
somebody is another knowledge point and heonly gains information. Yeah, yeah,

(31:49):
because he certainly didn't give a fuckthat he'd done it. No, absolutely,
no remorse whatsoever. But Bob Eagle'sdeath also brought the Man's next victim,
Fred Biggs, into his sphere ofinfluence. That might be my first
album, the Sphere of Seer ofInfluence. Yeah, I like it.
Fred Biggs was a part time storekeeperfor the work in Progress department, and

(32:13):
as such he knew the man quitewell as a colleague, and indeed he
actually got on quite well with him. They often shared a cup of tea
and talked about such common topics aseffective insecticides. Fine, I've got a
garden and I need that shit.Yeah, it's not as odd a topic
as I made it actually sound.There. The two men had many conversations,

(32:34):
obviously, and Fred Biggs was avery keen gardener. I was gonna
say, like, I've not gotmost of my garden's lawn, but I've
got my raised planners, that belt, and like effective use of insecticides.
Dude, we're in our forties now, I'm into that. I know,
I know. And Fred mentioned tothe man as some insect was destroying the

(32:55):
flowers in his garden. But thereason I'm referencing this conversation and specifically is
that the man proposed a fairly shockingsolution. One gallon of water with ten
grams of thallium dissolved in it wouldcertainly deal with any insects on those plants.
Yeah. The man even went astage further and a few days later
brought fifteen grams of thallium into workfor Fred, instructing him not to handle

(33:20):
it. Without gloves. So here'sthe ten grams that I said you needed,
and I wei extra five grams.Yeah exactly. I'm sure we've met
dealers like that. Nope, smooth. Fred took the thallium, but he
never actually used it and it waslater recovered unopened by the authorities. But

(33:42):
good. I don't think. Ipresume it would have been absorbed into the
food. Yeah, he would havebeen growing in his guard Yeah, he
would have. It's not just killingthe slugs, no, but yeah,
no, would it make the food. I don't know if it was a
ten to harm Fred in that case, though, I'm just wondering, like,

(34:04):
Okay, Fred's gonna grow some carrotson it or some shits. Then
have you either got thallium carrots?Yes, you would technically then have thailum
carrots. They quite easily absorbed everymetals can be absorbed into. Maybe this
was another data point, man,It could well have been. I just
I can't deny it. But itwas for flowers I think, not vegetables.
Okay, I think thallium roses,yeah, which we could also eat.

(34:31):
Rosetals are edible. Rose hip juiceis is lovely, okay, But
I don't think that he was tryingto poison him. So that was that
might be the most tangent of tangentsI've done in a while. I apologize
how regard to rose Hip juice.Anyway. Fred Biggs was a healthy,
strong man who, much like BobyEagle, had rarely suffered any illnesses in

(34:53):
his life. In July of nineteenseventy one, though, he was given
extra shifts in the main stores departmentwhere the man worked, and it was
not long after that that Fred Biggsbegan to show similar unexplained symptoms to the
other people that John hadland. There'sa pattern, yeah, His wife Annie

(35:13):
recalled the day around the start ofAugust. Fred went to work one day
fine, and then by lunchtime afterthe morning tea break had to be driven
home by a colleague because he couldn'tstop vomiting. So I mean he's getting
ill. Yes, he would returnto work after a few days. Another
victim, Diana Smart, was acompany secretary and she also fell ill.

(35:35):
Norman Spark, her husband, wasalso afflicted, but not as early because
Norman didn't like the man who waspoisoning everyone's tea at his leisure, so
he didn't drink as much of thetea that he brought around. If you
guys think the guy's a dick,you're not taking a cup of tea off
him anyway, exactly. Norman hadnever liked him. He found the topics
of conversation morbid and creepy, andhis odd habits, such as working in

(35:57):
near darkness annoying. He was abad umpire, I don't know. He
did like to work in darkness.Of some of the people that were doneder
him noted that about him. Hewouldn't let them have the lights on.
We find outside the settled to hewere pitch black out there, and so
car crashed into the massive electricity Pilon. Throughout August and September of nineteen seventy

(36:19):
one, many workers and John Hadfieldfell ill with what became known as the
Bobbingdon bug. The Bobbingdon bug isa man poisoning people is in reality,
the man who had been declared curedand safe to return to society was in
fact neither of those things, andhad begun coldly poisoning those around him again,
seemingly, almost at random. He'dliterally just gone pause the game,

(36:45):
go to jail. For eight yearsunpause the game. Yes, crack on
he had, and even the poisonsseemed slightly random. The man was known
to be an expert on all typesof toxins, and many of the victims
did present with very different symptoms.Although thallium was definitely his poison of choice
for killing people, he had beforepoisoned many of his school friends with other

(37:07):
toxins as well, just to seetheir effects. And what was almost certainly
a repeat of his behavior, hewas doing it again. Hey, he
literally unpaused the game and gone onagain. Yeah. Diana Smart, who
I already mentioned, had some veryodd symptoms. Actually, along with her
nausea, she experienced awful smelling feet. Oh, I mean, that's weird,

(37:30):
but to the point where her husbandNorman, couldn't sleep because of the
smell. Wow. Her sense oftaste also changed dramatically. Well it would
do if your feet sang that bad. She no longer liked the taste of
coffee or tea, and she complainedthat she curdled milk when her lips touched
of a glass or cup. Thatit was in right, I mean,

(37:57):
yeah, I think that's the mostsimple summary can give to that. But
like it's mad because none of that'srelated. Do you know if you get
sore, was he sore left arm? It's in your heart so right arm
blah blah blah, smelly feet andcan't taste things. Never a relationship,
probably not, who knows. It'sjust it's just impossible to know what he

(38:22):
was poisoning them with. So there'sno record of what he used on individual
place, what he used to killindividual people. Right, Okay, but
even that wide ranging as the effectof thallium poisoning can be, because that's
what he preferred to use to kill. So we get off the school jot
or amount of notes. When hecomes back out of jail, he's not

(38:45):
he's not documenting as much. He'sgoing to start documenting again, Bob.
But he hasn't done so far.No, not so far, including the
first the second murder that no he'sresponsible for. Yeah, he didn't document
that. No, but he goesback to doing it. Yes, I
mean like it's a baffling brain.I just don't go I just genuinely don't

(39:08):
get what's going on up here,like what I had no idea. Yeah.
At the beginning of October, DavidTilson, another store worker, also
fell ill. He recalls in hisown words, there had been times when
I've been working in the stores whenI've been offered tea and biscuits by him.
I've only used to have a fewmouthfuls of the tea because he used

(39:30):
to put sugar in it, whichI don't like. Wasn't sugar, was
it? It might have been sugarto mask the taste of something else,
that's true. Yeah, he wasdefinitely putting something in it. He was
thallium value of David Tilson remembers onFriday, the eighth of October, accepting
a cup of tea from the man, but only drinking half of it due
to the odd sweet taste. Thenext morning, David awoke to a numbness

(39:52):
in his fingers and toes. Thesymptoms remained for four or five days,
but the pins and needles in hislegs and the stiff joints remained, along
with chest pain. So we sawa doctor who examined him but could find
nothing wrong. She prescribed two paracetlethree times a day for the chest pain,
which she thought might be muscular.Pull the muscle in your ribs.

(40:13):
Cack on exactly now, there's goingto be quite a bit of quoting coming
up, because, as Bob justalluded to, just like when he was
a boy poisoning his friends and family, the man started keeping a diary as
mental like I genuinely like, Ionly asked you that because I thought we
were beyond it now, but arecord of his actions in his own words,

(40:35):
and the first entry of that diaryis on the twelfth of October nineteen
seventy one, so the eleven yearsbefore I was born. Al now he
will use letters to represent people suchas D was David Tilson, B was
Bob Eagle, F was Fred Biggs, et cetera, et cetera. And
we know that for a fact.We know that for a fact. So

(41:00):
on the twelfth of May he wrote, my fears proved to be unfounded.
D. That's David Tellson's malady wasdiagnosed as fibrostitis, which saves me the
trouble and the risk of playing thesympathetic hospital visitor in order to finish the

(41:20):
job. Had the illness proved sufficientlyserious to demand D's hospitalization, I could
not have taken the chance that prolongedobservation might have revealed the true cause of
the trouble. Had as was intended, the full amount been ingested, the
resultant illness would have had a fatalresolution within seven to ten days, conforming

(41:42):
in all aspects to gyombreret syndrome,and the death would have been diagnosed as
such. If, however, theillness had extended into weeks, as would
have been the case with so smalla quantity, certain of the symptoms would
present an atypical picture which may havejerked in the minds of the meta,
leading to a rediagnosis. Had thisbeen the case, it's quite likely that

(42:05):
the similarity of the symptoms to thosepreceding the death of Bob Eagle b in
this may have been recognized and thedeath certificates subject to closer scrutiny. So
all in all, I am quitesatisfied with the situation. Now I have
time to reassess and decide upon mycourse of action. So there's a lot

(42:27):
to digest and well read in.Sometimes when you read these quotes, I
know, sometimes when you read quotes, you have to just get through them,
even though it's quite and there's afew to come, and is that
okay? But that's essentially he's sayinghe's overjoyed at getting away with it.
Yes, because in this case,he has administered in non lethal doths for

(42:52):
an extended period of time to makethe symptoms look like yombore neurological problem.
And do we think he's measured thatenough to match this He's picked that can
he picked his dose to match thatcondition exactly? Like there's that level of
knowing that if I give him thismuch, yeah, it will mass.

(43:15):
And he's actually a little upset thathe hasn't drank the entire coffee because that
changes the dose a different data pointexactly. Now, from that first entry,
we're already seeing the same cold calculatedrecording of people suffering that we saw

(43:36):
when he was an eleven to thirteenyear old boy. Quite detailed recording then,
and it is, Yeah, it'svery detailed. And his course of
action that he mentioned is it sorryto interrupt? Well, is it like
I'm picturing almost a like completely impersonalthing. So like subject A gets this

(44:00):
amount. Yeah, that's one ofthe reasons he would have reduced their names
to letters, is to humanizing.Yeah, So like his notes wouldn't have
been like Craig's getting fifty mil No, No, Like I know that's really
simplifying, but you know what Imean. It was literally he was using
them as test subjects. Yes,he absolutely was, and he mentions having

(44:23):
time to reassess and decide upon hisnext course of action. The next course
of action was to decide on hisnext target, and he also recorded that
in his diary as well. Ofcourse he did, because he's a fucking
idiot, but really smart as well. In his diary writes, I think
R, which references John Durant,is the most logical choice. So it

(44:45):
is now merely a question of opportunity. He should visit this week and a
chance should occur. Then this timeI must restrain my tendency towards over liberal
dosage and administer the minimum necessary toachieve the desired effect. Too much and
the same will happen as with Dthat's David Tilson. Taste will be noticeably

(45:07):
altered and insufficient consumed, presenting thesame panifley of problems. Also, I
shall revert to the same medium aswith B that's Bob Eagle. Using the
crystaline form renders it far easier togauge the exact dosage and also safeguards against
partial decomposition. As I suspect mayhave happened with D's solution. You're right,

(45:30):
I mean it is detailed in it, like he's it's incredibly detailed.
He's weighing up the difference between likepre preparing a solution and doing it on
site, and he's weighing up thedifference between like, if I give too
much, I'm going to kill again. And that's that wasn't the outcome he
was looking for, not yet.There was a huge amount in that what

(45:50):
one hundred words or something, Yes, incredible amount of information there into his
I'm not gonna say mindset because obviouslyit is a snapshot, but like his
thought process on what he was doing. Yeah, and there is a lot
more, which we don't have timeto quote everything tonight. Obviously there is
an entire diary of Is it thediary you're directly quoting from? Is that

(46:15):
the book that you've got there?Yeah? Yeah, And tonight I'll be
quoting from his own diary and alsoa little bit from a Passion for Poison,
Carol Ann Lee's book, which isa fabulous resource for everybody who wants

(46:35):
to know, even more detailed thanwe've gone into tonight, of three or
four weeks now. He also wroteextensively about David Tillman. He wrote the
return to work today, and thisafternoon I was able to inquire after his
health. It appears that he issuffering muscular pain and stiffness from the chest

(47:00):
downwards of a general distribution. Hehas intense numbness in both feet. It
would seem, therefore, that thequantity ingested was larger than I originally estimated,
perhaps as much as three hundred milligrams. The symptoms points so clearly to
pollinuritis that the competence of D's physicianis questionable, to say the least.

(47:22):
It is not certain that alopecia willlater develop, but it would be quite
consistent with the dose of this size. If it occurs, this will doubtly
drive D to the doctor again,but happily, by the time hair loss
becomes sufficiently noticeable to prompt this step, excretion of the drug is likely to
have ended. In this case,the dose was relatively small, which is

(47:45):
another factor which may cause D concernand possibly worry. His position is the
protracted course of the illness. Thesymptoms will remit only gradually. Recovery in
these cases is always very slow.Full sensation should return to his feet,
and for the muscular impairment to resolveitself. It may take as long as

(48:06):
two to three months. Fibrotitis isin acute form. To persist for so
long, it's unusual, and ultimatelya diagnosis of polyneuritis may well be made.
We shall see. The case interestsme greatly and it affords me an
opportunity to observe the effects of asubweethal of dulce. Now what we're saying

(48:28):
here, sorry two sex. Sois he testing the doctors as well?
He's not testing the doctors. Idon't know. I just take away from
that, like the latter maybe twentypercent of that let's see what they come
back with, is very much likehe's not testing the he is slightly testing

(48:53):
the doctors. He no, Ithink he fully is, because he's he's
essentially getting away with this to thepoint where he can almost go, Let's
see if I can make them believethat they've got an illness, yes,
and that, and then mocking themfor not believing that they have that illness.

(49:15):
It's enough. It's all power,Yes, it's literally all power.
Yeah, exactly. And we're alsoseeing a complete return to the exact same
behavior he has played as a twelveto thirteen year old boy. He's poisoning
people, as you say, forthe power trip and out of curiosity to
see what happens. Is he stillthe twelve to thirteen year old boy?

(49:35):
I think so. Yeah. Itjust feels like that eight years in prison
hasn't done a single thing. It'snot changed his mindset at all. And
it's almost that ability to white liethat's a young young a young boy has
to do. He's literally living onthe white lie of not I'm okay,

(49:58):
nobody at least to look at me. Also drink this. Yeah. Now,
it seemed from the diary that theman had decided his next victim would
be John Durant, and that wasour You said that in the last Yes,
okay, that's what I said.Then that's what it was. I
do listen to you, Alice.However, Durrant wasn't in everyday contact with

(50:25):
the man, which was what madehim a less suspicious victim actually, but
it also gave the man less opportunitiesto administer poison. Now, whether the
man changed his mind or whether hedecided he couldn't wait until he saw durant
and despite apparently genuinely liking Jethrow batwho worked alongside him in the storeroom.

(50:47):
On the fifteenth of October, Jethrowaccepted a mug of tea from the man,
which tasted even older and sweeter thanusual, masking something. After one
got help, Jethrow put the mugaside, but he was left with a
very bitter aftertaste. Twenty minutes later, Jethrow is experiencing terrible stomach pains,

(51:08):
but also an inability to vomit.He developed leg pain and also stiffness of
the joints. That's really bad,like he's internally wanting to get but can
exactly. That's bad. Must beterrible. The man who poisoned him wrote
in the diary on the eighteenth ofOctober, several new developments d that's David

(51:36):
Tillman's symptoms have considerably worsened over theweekend. The parasthesia and anesthesia now render
it difficult for him to walk atall, and apparently this morning he was
unable to walk up the stairs.He was not at work, of course,
but telephoned in to explain his absence. Later in the morning, he
called back to notify P that hisdoctor now diagnosed a glandular complaint. How

(52:00):
much further the illness will progress isdifficult to say at this stage. A
second development, and one that Iregret, is that J that Spigs has
been afflicted. The administration was Fridaynight, and as only part of the
dose was ingested, it's difficult tosay how severe the resultant illness will be.
The symptoms have been slower to manifestthemselves than in the case of D,

(52:23):
but have been gradually appearing. Duringthe afternoon. J complains of an
insidiously spreading muscular ech accompanied by stomachpains and flatulence. The latter symptoms,
however, are probably due to amild stomach germ which seems to have been
currently doing the round. It justhappens, Just happens sometimes, don't worry

(52:45):
about it. Sometimes it just happens. Yeah. Got this case though,
no, and it's again frightening.How camly can record these things over the
next few weeks has recorded victims gotprogressively worse. On the twenty sixth of
October, Diana Smart, David Tilson, and Jethrowbat were all absent due to

(53:07):
illness, so the man responsible fortheir suffering, took the opportunity to deliver
another dose to Fred Biggs. Well, I can't have himself just bumming about
doing nothing. He can't poison nobody, Yeah, I mean imagine that,
just poisoning nobody. After drinking acup of poisoned t Fred Biggs was taken
home after lunch with debilitating stomach painsand sore joints, also the ubiquitous sickness

(53:30):
and diarrhea. On the twentieth ofOctober, John Durant visited the factory and
in the storehouse. John Durant waschosen as the man's next target in his
diary Remember and now. The mantook the opportunity to bring him a nice
cup of tea two sugars. Yes, like some horrible version of Missus Doyle

(53:51):
from Father Ted. Go On,go on, go on, go on.
John Durant accepts the cup of teafrom the man after the fourteenth or
fifteenth goan, go on, goon. He made small talk with the
man while they dragged the tea.He remarked in a strange taste, as
if it had been brewed for toolong. The following morning, John Durant

(54:14):
woke with a terrible headache and painsin his shoulder. Is it from the
poisoned tas It's from the poisoned tea? Yes, I live the dead panness.
We've got to hear that, IAlice, that's from the poison Teach,
it's for the poison tea. Now. All of this man's victims were
in and out of hospital over thenext few weeks, and it's all recorded
in his diary, which is availableto read online, and I think it

(54:36):
was published, although I'm not positiveof that, and it's hard to get
hold of. I'd like to readanother excerpt now, and I can't promise
that it will even be the lastone. There is much to communicate since
my last entry die, which isDiana Smart, who I afflicted with a
mild attack of gastro enteritis on Octoberthe twentieth, was subject to a further

(55:00):
indisposition on the twenty second, theresult of which caused violent vomiting and diarrhea
throughout the weekend. I believe sheis now suitably chastened. D that's David
Tillman is now discharged from hospital butstill unwell, so I do not expect

(55:21):
to see him for some time.His illness was finally diagnosed as an unidentified
virus. J Jack Biggs is stilloff work suffering from similarly mysterious virus.
It is unlikely that the sentence willrecede with any great rapidity. I shall
not expect to see him for thenext week or fortnite. F Fred Biggs,

(55:45):
whom I group alike, has beenthe most recent subject of my attention.
I have administered a fatal dose ofthe special compound, which was thallium,
to him and anticipate reports of hisillness on Monday. He should die
within the week, his death beingattributed to acute intermittent porphyria. I gave

(56:07):
him three separate doses, each ofabout five to six grams. The total
absorbed should be about fifteen to sixteengrams, which constitutes a lethal dose.
Indeed, this it's ridiculous to saythat at this point he really knows what
he's talking about. Yeah, he'sdone his research. Is a really belittling

(56:30):
way of talking about poisoning people overthe period of thirty odd years. But
it's also true he reads medical texts. He knows the exact progression of these
different toxins, even in different doses. To have them mimic different syndromes and
different illnesses. That's what I wasgoing to say to you. You'd stagger

(56:52):
it. You talk at the beginningof that quote there, and feel free
to get back and listen to itagain because there's a lot to take in.
But you talk about the he wastrying to simulate the diseases. He
was exactly knew what he knew thatif I give them this, the doctors
would prescribe this or diagnose this.Sorry, exactly, if I give him

(57:13):
this large fatal dose all at once, it will likely be misdiagnosed as polyuratis
for grimbret. If I give hima lesser dose over a longer period of
time, it will likely be misdiagnosedas fibrostitis. Yeah, you had to
say those words there. You lookat me as if I was going to

(57:35):
finish your sentence the I'm sorry,fibrostitis is the answer, Alley, I'm
not finishing your sentence. It's doyou know what it is? And I
know I've gone after all of yourcoats. I've already said the guy was
smart. It's the level of computationthat goes into this, like remove the
empathy aspect of him actually caring aboutwhat he did to people, because he

(57:59):
does. It's almost like, howdo all the fucking data from Star Trek
next general something? It's literally asemotionless. Yeah, totally is like this
is the fact that I'm learning itis. I fucking hate it. It's
frightening. Now. I read thatlast quote for a number of reasons.

(58:23):
It shows again the unfeeling way inwhich the man records the suffering of people
that are meant to be his friends. But it also tells us the specific
doses he was using, and thathe knew that they were fatal, and
that he was very familiar with theprogression of these toxins in varying doses to
mimic other drugs or other other illnesses. But it also shows his sense of

(58:50):
superiority. At the beginning, hementions having suitably chastened Diana Smart by giving
a guest. Ento writists twice,Now this is a punishment for a mild
offense, a mild indiscretion, shouldI say, in the office. But
it demonstrates the low regard that heholds others in and the inflated regard that

(59:12):
he has for himself. He thinkshimself good enough to judge and chasen those
around him. He sees himself asa superior, like really power trip well,
as I said, this is allabout power. It is the power
over others. On the first ofNovember, David Tilson was readmitted to hospital

(59:36):
as well as has already listed symptoms. His hair was now falling out in
clumps. Red Biggs was rushed tohospital the very next day. Fred had
now developed none thiss in his handsand feet and a loss of reflex and
sensory loss. Meanwhile, David Tilson'sdoctors were pondering this new and rapid hair

(59:58):
loss, and for the first timethey were considering heavy metal poisoning because it's
a different poison because rapid hair lossis very unusual. There aren't many things
that present with rapid hair los right, Okay, that's why it really should
have been an alarm bell way beforewhen somebody in the hostel presented with it.

(01:00:22):
It's just been sadly overlooked. Yeah, exactly. Now already concerned about
heavy metal poisoning where John Hadlin's management, although for very different reasons, they
were worried that one of their processescould actually be contaminating the factory somehow and
it might be their fault. Andthey're the photography they're the photography company.

(01:00:44):
So the chemicals that we mentioned earlier, they're worried that they are because yeah,
exactly, they do use stallium somehowin their factor. I can't remember
how now, but it wasn't connectedto are Mad in any way shape of
But they had the dutiful thing asa company and go is it us?
Exactly? They contract the district medicalofficer, doctor Hind, but he sends

(01:01:10):
doctor Dennis Trott first to inspect thesite on the eleventh of November. Doctor
Trott is from remarkably unconcerned with whathe finds in the factory. It doesn't
look that there's any contamination or anyweaking or any of that anywhere, but

(01:01:34):
he is disturbed by what, tobe honest, the man says to him
during brief conversation. So the nextday he returns with his direct superior,
doctor Hind, to do a morein depth inspection, which included interviewing all
the staff as well as inspecting thefacility. Both doctors were put ill at

(01:01:54):
ease by the man's answers and tohis questions when they questioned him. So
arrangements were made for a sort ofstaff awareness meeting later in the month,
just to be let's get together andhave a chat. Let's get together and
have a chat. Why is everyonegetting sick? But he's all up to

(01:02:16):
out of ours going on here?Pretty much? Yeah, Fred Biggs in
hospital. His condition continued to decline, and on the eighteenth of November he
suffered a cardiac arrest and died fairlysame scenario that we've seen before. The

(01:02:37):
second casualty of this man's ego andcuriosity since being released from Broadwall, Ego
and Curiosity will put alistair. NowJohn Hadland himself now called in a doctor
Arthur Anderson to speak to the staffabout Fred's death and about the Bobbingdon bug.

(01:02:57):
Of course, I'll forgot about theBobbingdon bug. It's cracking on.
Dr Anderson spoke for about fifteen minutesand then he took questions, as you
do. The man responsible for theBobbington bug was the first to question the
doctor, and I'd like to reada little of the conversation. He asked

(01:03:20):
some odd questions and some incriminating questionsactually of himself. Yes, right,
okay. So Dr Anderson asked forquestions, and the man responsible for the
poisoning stood up and asked, whatwere the similarities and symptoms of the two
people who died and the two peoplewho were ill? Reasonable question? Reasonable

(01:03:43):
question. Doctor Anderson tells him thatthere was no definite link between those who
died and those who were ill.The man then asks, what is the
significance of alopecia suffered by mister Batand mister Tilson. Reasonable question, yep,
and Doctor Anderson says, in thecase of Jethrow Bat, this may

(01:04:04):
be due to a nervous condition stress. Nope. The man nods and says,
so complete alopecia due to psychosomatic stimulus. Then great sentence. Yep.
Dr Anderson's a bit surprised, obviously, but he says, yes, this
could have been the case, asmister Bat showed signs of extreme nervous strain.

(01:04:31):
Then the man says, and wouldyou say that mister Bat and mister
Tilson's symptoms are consistent with thallium poisoningjust as a random question? Yep?
Just throw that out there, yep. Now, obviously mister Anderson is shocked.

(01:04:54):
He would later write, I wascompletely taken aback. I'd always consider
the possibility that the illness and deathwere being caused by some form of heavy
metal industrial poisoning, but I wasdeliberately playing this possibility down in front of
the staff because I didn't want toalarm them. Here he was shouting his

(01:05:15):
mouth off about the subject. Hecompletely lost me in what he was saying.
I knew a little about the effectsof thallium poisoning, but at that
stage I knew nothing of the neurologicaldamage thallium could do. He was talking
about that type of damage. Itried to shut him up because I was
trying to play down in that sortof danger, and he was going on
and on. Eventually I managed toget him silenced for a while. I

(01:05:39):
didn't suspect him of causing the troublewhen he mentioned thallium, but I suspected
it could be thallium poison if thefactory used it in the manufacture of camera
lenses. A quick jet with thefactory management dismissed any likelihood of industrial poisoning
by thallium because none was ever stoppedthere. So the marriaged to do the

(01:06:00):
right thing and do their investigation andrule themselves out. They did the investigation
and had ruled out thallium because theydidn't actually use thallium in their process in
their processes in that factory. Quitefine, But now suspicions are being raised
by the fact that the symptoms matchthallium poisoning, and now we don't know

(01:06:21):
where the thallium was coming from.Yeah, but doctor Hind, following this
meeting with the staff and doctor Anderson, interviewed the man again, and during
this interview he insisted on knowing wherethe man had been treated for his mental
illness in his early life, Okay, for a purpose like was he blamed

(01:06:49):
to his predecessors? Predecessors is thewrong word there, but you know what
I mean that, yes, thepredecessor, the people that have diagnosed and
cured him before. Exactly he's layingblamed there. He's not laying blame there.
And he told and the man responsiblefor the poisonings that he needed the

(01:07:13):
information to complete staff records. Thesuspicions there, the suspicions there. He
did it in fact, because hewas suspicious. He knew that this man
had been in a mental institution forsomething, but he didn't know which mental
institution. He didn't know what mentalinstitution. Yeah, he got him to

(01:07:35):
admit that he was in broadwar.Wow, which set off further alarm Bell.
Of course it would, yes,as it obviously would. And also
we see here another behavior that wesaw all those years ago. The man
is casting suspicion on himself with whathe's saying. He's suggesting thallium poisoning.

(01:07:56):
He knows they've been poisoned with valies. Of course he does, but he's
playing. He's playing the genius fool, isn't he. Yeah, And he
did the same thing when he poisonedpeople in his early teens. It's not
that he wants to be caught.His diary records his fears of possible discovery.
It's more to me like he wantsto be known and thinks himself too
clever to actually ever be caught.But he's already been caught. He doesn't

(01:08:21):
know that yet. Who did eightyears in jail? Yes, but he
thinks he's smarter now, or he'slearned. He's learned. He's done exactly
the same thing since he left.Yes, he's learned. Fuck Hall,
it's true. So when you're seeingthis odd interaction and as well as finally
seeing the common denominator and all thesuspicious illnesses leads John Hadland to suspect the

(01:08:46):
man responsible and to report that suspicionto the police, and the doctors as
well report it independently to the police. Oh good. This would lead to
the investigation that we talk about nexttime in this ever expanding rabbit hole that
I'm currently going down with this case. Join us next time on Twisted Britain

(01:09:08):
for part four, Part four,which might be the final part. Who
knows, I'm taking you down thisrabbit hole with me. If I'm going
down, you're all going down withme Part four of this trilogy. It's
late. Yep, you need togo. It's been it's been a while.
We're edited this one as well,thanks very much. I mean,

(01:09:29):
I've got fucking eighteen and a halfhours of the first two episodes to deal
with, but we'll come back foranother episode obviously. Let's go back to
find the conclusion of this case.I'm okay. I'm dealing with his arrest
and trial in a fourth episode.There are two things, but they are
going to be one episode. Doyou make? Are you making? Are

(01:09:50):
we going? It's gonna be oneepisode, one more episode, one more
episode, one more episode to wrapus up. Look, if you're list
deep into this, you don't likewhat you're listening to, why the hell
are you still here? Yeah?So the next episode will be out next
week. Ali has spent well.Ali gave up his job and moved to
Bournemouth and wrote this pretty much.That's almost true. This is what's happened.

(01:10:15):
So if you don't like it,this is literally the premiere of Alistair.
This is this is this is thebest we're gonna get. Yeah,
you're not gonna get more research outof me than this. I will hold
you just that. I will neverknow more about something than I know about
this. You say that, butI know you better than anybody who listens
to this podcast has that, AndI know the next time you find something

(01:10:36):
that has anything to do with aship, how do you love both the
left board with we'll get an eightpart. Oh god, we'll come back
to that. Thank you very muchfor part three episode. I'm surprised you've
not written it yet. Done thisyet, very surprised to that. Teacup

(01:10:58):
Points Part three complete, Done,Teacup Poison Apart four. Next time you
listen to us. Yeah, he'skilled two people. Will he get away
with it? No? No?Will he kill more? No? Oh,
well you've ruined that fucking Cliffhanger idiot. But how he is convicted is
very interesting, and there's some fantasticforensic advancements involved in the investigation. So

(01:11:24):
sticking with us for perty with usfor that, we really arguing a stick
with us for the most improvements andforensic examination procedure. You know, I'm
excited about it. And if youlisten to this and you're not excited about
it, so they're wrong. Listento something else. I will leave you
with a thank you, love youbye and thank you, love you bye,

(01:11:47):
thank you fewbye yourself down ne