Episode 108 - The Teacup Poisoner - Part 4

In the conclusion of the teacup trilogy in 4 parts Ali and Bob look at the arrest, trial and conviction of the Teacup poisoner.  The investigation included a first for the British justice system and forensic medicine.  

Thanks for listening 

Episode Transcript

(00:33):
Hello, and welcome to Twists toBritain, a true a podcast in true
crime in Britain with a sprinkling ofthe weird in the cab and your hosts
are Me, Bob Dale and Me. Have I Downey fucking done that so
many times? Al? And Iheard the stumble how do I funk it?
I literally wrote it, and Ithink I've said it like two hundred
times at least plus the ones thatwe've we've fucked up the recordings of.
So I've done this as well.Anyway, are you well, sir?

(00:53):
How I'm fabulous You've had an excitingday, having a really exciting day,
share with us. I was upin Pair, which is exciting and exciting
in itself. It's a beautiful city. But no, I was up in
Perth at the registrar's office registering myintent to wed. Woo woo, congratulations.
My favorite part of that story waswhen Sarah got here tonight. I

(01:15):
think probably the first thing she saidto me was they didn't even ask me
the fucking questions. I know hisday of birth backwards and all shit.
So at some point this evening I'mgoing to quiz her. Nice She'll get
it all right. I have said, we are such a welcoming nation for
people down south normally, so it'sfine, don't worry about it. It

(01:37):
comes up, but your quiz iscoming, you better be prepped. We've
not recorded in person in a while, Alistair, it's been at least like
three or four weeks. It's beena good read while. We did see
each other at Crime Con obviously,yeah, we did. It was great.
It was good fun. Actually Iwas, and I'll not make no
bones about it. I was abit like I was absolutely done and knackered
going to it. But it wasa really good day, mainly because they

(01:59):
thought I stayed so they'll let medrink from the bar quite early. But
no, it was really good day. We met some new podcasts, yep,
we did, which always makes ithappy. We had an evening and
a day with David Swindle, whichI mean, if you don't enjoy that,
who are you? Lovely man?And we got to see the Kristy
Maxwell Peal and Victims of broad guysagain, who we are very proud to

(02:21):
support. I think they are verygood friends of the podcast. So if
you don't know about Christy Maxwell Appealand the Victims of Broad guys, please
do look them up, because yeah, good friends of the podcasts, I
would say, and a fantastically worthwhilecause. And then I got the pleasure
of interviewing the captain from True CrimeGarage in the evening did we were loving
it? I was loving it?Do you know that way? Really?

(02:42):
And I'm quite open about this.I listened to True Crime Garage for years
and years and years, and Iwas a fan, and I was worried
about being I think I carried myselfall right on the bat. It was
great. And afterwards my first checkin was was it all right? And
you were like, yeah, man, it was cool. That's fine,
so that I don't need any otherpraise. And if you'd gone, how's
dog shit, dude, and itmaybe not released, it I think would

(03:06):
have been the thing there. Sowe had a good time at Crime Con.
But you're up here for a fewtimes. Oh yeah, I'm up
here three times this month, orfor two weeks, and then for another
week later in the month as well. Because Sarah is going to be picking
up her wedding press. Yeah,and I find that stranger going with her.
But you know, each to theirown. They get free mimosas is
that the reason you're going? Yeah? Nice, I like keep me free

(03:29):
mimosas, like I'm not missing outthat fuck with tradition. Let's get a
momosa. You should get that tattooedone day. I don't, I will,
I know, and I'll say smythesor something instead. You're welcome,
you still love them. It's oneof my is literally my favorite part of

(03:49):
your body. Will not do awhip round to see any if anybody else's
got a favorite part, We'll moveswiftly on. We are here because we
deliberately made a point of trying torecord in person the Teacup Poisoner episodes.
Yes, because you specifically wanted todo them in person, because you thought

(04:09):
it was such an important tale totell. And it's the first time I
think that we've gotten to over.I mean, we've got over two episodes
and we've only ever done a doubleepisode before I can remember. This is
number four. Yeah, this isthe fourth part in the Teacup trilogy.
Yeah, is it? The lastone? Is the concluding part of the
Teacup trilogy. It's the concluding You'vegone full fucking Douglas Adams on is and

(04:31):
this that's what's happened here? Now? I went down a hole. Yeah,
the farthest I've ever seen you godown at home. Yeah, And
I'm going to ask I'm probably gonnaask you at the end because no,
we'll not do it now, becausewe'll get into the tale of the evening?
Why why this one that has becauseof all the tales you've told,
which you I know you enjoyed theresearch for and the reading for, why

(04:54):
is this one the one that's goneneeds some more? All right? Yeah,
well answer that at the end.Oh, he's fucking got it prepped.
And everyone look at that professional podcast. Everybody, he says, drinking
some tenants? Yeah, I meanI know you've been drinking all day as
well, So we might be interestingon grasshoppers? Are they the minty the
minty green greatness? I'm not alrightwith it. It's fantastic. It looks

(05:16):
horrible and it doesn't sound great.It tastes like mint aero ice cream,
which is literally my worst worst dessert. I'd much rather have a Yanetta.
Oh eighties? Is that eighty nineties? We digress. Let's stick on Facebook.
What your favorite dessert from the ninetieswas. We'd like to know acquiring

(05:38):
minds want to know, genuinely interested. Yeah, but this is the concluding
part of the Teacup trilogy in fourparts. Finally, Yeah, I'm the
one that has to sit here andlisten to all of it. And it's
been in all of it. It'sbeen the long story of the life of
the man who would become known asone of Great Britain's most prolific killers and

(05:59):
earn himself the nickname the Teacup Poisoner. But before we begin, I'd like
to do a quick recap of whatwe talked about in the previous three episodes.
Thank you, because it's been awee while since we did the so
I would appreciate it, and thana week since anybody to listen to the
last episodes. Also, we havelisteners here with us tonight. Oh we
did. I was going to talkabout that, so they definitely won't have

(06:20):
heard the first three. They haven'theard the first three. Oh shit night.
I mean, Andrea's come from downsouth to come and see us,
and thank you very much for that. And the offer and invite always stands
if you're in the Sterling area.In fact, even if you're not in
the Sterling area. You can stillcome and see us. They've traveled for
fucking miles for this Alex stupid andthey've walked in on the night where we

(06:42):
do the fourth part of a fourpart series, What Shit Night to come
on, But thank you very muchfor coming. His early life was a
litany of adverse childhood experiences what psychologistsnow call aces. He suffered very physical
traumas, including severe mastoiditis which requiredsurgery, and being knocked down by a

(07:04):
car when he was eight years oldon the North Circular Road not far from
Neisden, where he lived. Hisbiological mother died very shortly after giving birth
to him, and his family lifeduring his important developmental years was also far
from stable or standard. The dynamicof his family was frequently in flux,
as he spent his early years livingwith and being raised by his aunt Winifred,

(07:26):
before his father Fred was able tobring the whole family back together under
one roof. Fred himself was notedby many as not being an outwardly affectionate
man, certainly towards his son,and some believed that he always blamed his
son for the death of his firstwife. When Fred remarried some years later,
the boys' relationship with his stepmother,Molly was turbulent, and he often
felt misunderstood. As the boy grewit became obvious to our eyes looking back

(07:53):
with the clarity of twenty twenty hindsight, that due to some or all of
his adverse childhood experiences, he didn'thave mentally along the same paths as other
boys. He was incredibly intelligent fora child at that time, but also
emotionally stunted, unable to empathize withanyone or anything on more than a very
basic level. He began displaying worryingbehaviors that today would have raised multiple red

(08:16):
flags as to his mental health,but which at the time were overlooked or
not understood to be the dangerous indicatorsthat they were. We've talked on occasion
about the indicators. There's the McDonaldtriad, the bed web wetting, the
torch of animals, all that kindof stuff. He ticked all those boxes,

(08:37):
so I was good, I was. I saw it. To interrupt
you your round up to so far? Does he take all the boxes like
he was? He all the boxesyet? So in twenty twenty four hindsight,
we can quite clearly say that hewould have probably been picked up by
some kind of social services or something, but time frame being as it was,

(09:01):
he was just allowed to be anormal boy. Yeah exactly. But
he developed a morbid obsession from avery young age with poisons and toxicology.
This quickly went from reading books onfamous poisoners such as Edward Pritchard and William
Palmer, to experimenting on animals.Before the boy was twelve, his experiments
had moved on to his classmates inschool and his family. He tested various

(09:22):
poisons on them in non lethal dosesand recorded the results with a cold dissociation.
By thirteen years old, his macabreobsession had left his father Fred with
lifelong health problems and led him todeliberately deliver a fatal dose of thallium to
his stepmother Molly. His activities wererevealed in nineteen sixty two and he was

(09:45):
charged with administering toxic substances to variouspeople. The boy escaped being charged with
his stepmother's murder because her body hadbeen cremated and her ashes scattered, and
never tested for anything at his requestas well, oldly enough, well not
that odd really, no, well, but never tested because there was the

(10:05):
circumstances weren't deemed suspicious enough to testexactly. Following his trial, the boy
was sentenced to the medical facility atBroadmore in July of nineteen sixty two for
a period of fifteen years, oruntil such time as he was considered no
longer a threat to society. Stillshould still be there. Yeah. He

(10:26):
spent nine years as a patient inBroadmore before finally being released in nineteen seventy
one when his doctor thought he was, to use a poor and inadequate term,
cured, and they declared him nolonger a threat to others. I
remember having an issue with this acouple of episodes ago. I don't like
cured. No, but that's theterm they is. Yeah. I don't

(10:48):
mind rehabilitated, but this is certainlyhe definitely wasn't rehabilitated. It was not.
In the last episode we covered hisactions after his release. Unfortunately,
his doctors at Broadmoor were sorely mistakenwhen they declared him effectively cured. He
was in fact no different mentally tothe day when he'd been admitted. His
obsessions remained. He'd just gotten verygood over the years at hiding it from

(11:11):
the doctors. So you don't thinkthere's any level at all of remorse rehabilitation.
Now, there's no resolve happened hereat all. He's gone in at
one hundred percent, he's come outat one hundred percent. Yeah, hunt
right through. Yeah, well,mentally damaged person right through. I'm sticking

(11:31):
with it. But what Sorry.During his time and incarceration, he did
a lot of reading and educating himselfas much as he could, but not
much. But he wasn't poisoning anybodyduring his Oh no, he poisoned at
least two people while he was inBroadmoor. Good. Good, We move

(11:52):
on. Within forty eight hours ofhis release, he had already slipped an
unknown toxin into the white he sharedwith one of the other residents in the
rehabilitation house he was staying in.That was a man called Trevor Sparks.
After this, he was assigned ajob in a warehouse of John Hadland Limited
in Bovingdon. That was the hightech camera company. Trevor Sparks sounds like

(12:16):
a character from Mortal Kombat does,but so began a repeat cycle the same
we saw when he was a child, administering toxins and poisonous substances to those
close to him, and recording theresults as they unfolded before him. As
before, he started out with nonlethal doses, but quickly escalated to fatal

(12:37):
levels. I believe that his mainmotivation was the power trip that he gained
from playing God. When delivering poisonsto people, he held the power to
kill them or to let them live, depending on how large a dose he
decided to give them. It's onehundred percent God syndrome, isn't it.
Yeah? And actually, do youknow what the thing that really baffles me
most is not the fact that he'sin these poisonings, and it's I mean,

(13:01):
it's dozens and dozens and dozens bythis, Yeah, dozens and dozens.
It's the recording of the meticulous recordingof it is baffling to me.
I know. He would later becomeknown as the teacup poisoner because he usually
mixed his toxins and work with thetea that he prepared for his co workers.
He was so prolific and the sheernumber of his victims so high that

(13:24):
for months it was believed that therewas a mystery virus responsible for the huge
spate of sicknesses and deaths that becomea curring At John Hadland, it was
called the Bobbington Bug, The BobbingdonBug. Yeah, it sounds like a
really cool, like nineteen forty swingdance. Yeah. Have you done the
Boddington bud this weekend? Bud Bug? That sounds like something you'd smoke.

(13:48):
Abobbing done budt No. No,we've had conversations about your accents before.
We're gonna get We're gonna get like, I don't know, blacklisted, jamiyaka't
do it? Sorry, okay,mm deplatformed was the word I was looking
for there, Take it off now. One of the reasons that it took

(14:11):
doctors and the authorities so long torecognize what was going on was that the
man's choice of an unusual and atthe time almost unknown poison thallium. Yeah,
it's not your general one. Iknow we've said this in the other
episodes, but you like, ifyou'd said I'm doing a poisoner, I
would have literally assumed strickening arsenic.Possibly a few others, but literally strickening

(14:33):
in arsenic. The two that wehave the most experience of. It's the
most prolific amount of reading I've everdone. Is about those kinds of levels
of poison. You've done more obviouslypoisoning cases than I have. But thallium
is not a normal No, it'snot. Thallium is a heavy metal poison,
and its progression isn't standard or typicalin every case. Although there are

(14:56):
some symptoms that you will always see, such as hair loss. However,
in a single very high dose deathoccurs before some of those symptoms actually become
apparent, which makes high dose stalliumpoisoning very hard to diagnose. Does it
go away quick as well? It'sout the body fairly quickly. Yeah.

(15:16):
I was gonna say, like forpost mortem and autopsy purposes, Yeah,
but if you die with a highdose in you, it's still going to
be there for post mortons or autopsies. You'd also have to be looking for
it. It's not something that wouldcome up specifically in an autopsy or anything
like. No, that's a designedtest. Absolutely, Yeah, it wouldn't
come up on a standard toxicology reportof like nineteen seventy. Now, the

(15:39):
first to die at John Hadlin's bythe hand of this disturbed man was his
direct superior, Bob Eggel. Asthe weeks passed, more and more people
fell ill as the unknowingly ingested nonlethal doses of poisons in their tea.
The next to die was Fred Biggs. However, people were once again becoming
suspicious, as the man's often strangebehavior repeatedly made them think twice about whether

(16:02):
it was possible that the so calledBobbingdon bug could in fact be something far
more sinister. Spoiler alert, Yeah, spoiler alert, it was. It
certainly was. The straw that brokethe camel's back, so to speak,
came when an independent doctor was broughtinto Hadlins to talk to the workers about
Fred Biggs's death. Here, theman who had poisoned him actually spoke up

(16:22):
and himself suggested thallium as a possiblecause. It's a really random call to
make. It seems almost crazy,but it's probably a consequence of the man
on some level wanting to be foundout, while at the same time believing
himself so clever that once people knew, they wouldn't be able to actually prove
it. So that's part of thatGod syndrome again, like going back to

(16:45):
I hold the power in this moment, Yes, and he could never resist
an opportunity to display his own,in his mind superior intelligence. Either his
ego trips him up time and timeagain. I know some people at that
al definitely aren't two of them onthis podcast. No, Yeah, we

(17:06):
do have to remember that he wasof above average intelligence and also he liked
the two on this podcast. Yeah, but he held his fellow men and
women in a level of sort ofintellectual contempt. We don't not like the
people in this podcast. It alsoalways wanted to emulate the famous poisoners of
history that he's so idolized, andfor that he would have to be known.

(17:29):
So there's there's a level of whyhaven't they caught me yet? Yeah,
like, look at me, I'mdoing this. Yeah. It's a
fucking asshole, isn't it? Heis? So, as we pick up
the story today, since his releasefrom broad Moor, the man has poisoned
dozens of people at his workplace ofJohn Hadland Limited. Two people, Fred

(17:51):
Biggs and Bob Egel, are alreadydead from thallium poisoning. Others like David
Tilson and Jeth Robat, are hospitalizedand in critical condition. The man responsible
has just firmly raised suspicions against himselfby displaying an unusually high level of knowledge
about poisons and specifically the possible toxinused in poisoning most of the victims.

(18:12):
So the two doctors Anderson and Hind, who had been interviewing the staff at
Hadlin's, were both now very suspiciousof this odd man who seemed to know
too much about very specific areas ofmedicine such as toxicology. Following up on
their suspicions, doctor Hind decided tophone the factory and speak to the man
directly and try to gain a littlemore information about him before he started throwing

(18:34):
allegations around, Right, So didhe know who it was then? Yeah?
No, No, but he knewthere was something not right about this.
Yeah, so he didn't have asuspicion specifically, No, he did

(18:56):
about about the unsuspect, About thesuspect. I was gonna say about the
untimely nature of the death, aboutthe suspect as well, about the suspect
as well. No one had considered, well that's not true. Thallium poisoning
was considered as a possible cause becauseHadlinds did use thallium in the manufacture of
their camera lenses. Okay, yeah, so it would have been accessible because

(19:21):
of the nature of the industry,right, our suspect gained all of his
stallium from chemists through direct purchases.As we've talked about in the previous episodes,
he almost had a relationship with somechemists when he was able to buy
stuff that he probably shouldn't have happenin the quantities certainly that he had.
But in this case, an lemonasnicket, a series of unfortunate events that

(19:48):
that that chemical is used in theindustry that he was working in, was
what raised the suspicion. However,it had fuck all to do with it.
It's mad, it is so,following up in his suspicions of hind,
decided to phone the factory and speakto him directly. The thing he
was most interested in was where theman had been institutionalized and for what reasons,

(20:08):
Because it was no secret that hehad been through a mental health facility,
but after his release, it seemshe was never required to disclose to
his employers specifically where or why,so he had to say he was he
had been incarcerated in a mental facility, in a mental sorry, I thought
you meant. He didn't have totell them that he could have said no,

(20:29):
I was in jail, but hehad to tell them. He had
to tell him he was in amental facility, not specifically, but not
specifically which mental facility and not forwhat reason. Well, it seems a
massive failing on the recruitment process.Yep. Neither had any of the police
officers or his previous doctors seen fitto divulge this information at any time,
because he'd got the job through aprisoner rehabilitation scheme. But he's still a

(20:52):
nasty bastard yep. And you haveto like just employ somebody without knowing they're
a nasty bastard. They knew hewas odd, the new he was odd.
Fucking That covers the two people inthis podcast as well. But that's
definitely odd. But they didn't thinkhe was poisoning everyone. I suppose it's
a stretch to think anybody's actually doingthat. It's a stretching thing, anyone,

(21:12):
is that twisted? Yeah, andquite blase about it as well.
Yeah. Yeah, So nobody atthe factory, though, actually knew that
he'd spent nine years at Broadmoor formass poisoning. It's mad. If they
had, they might have been moresuspicious. He might not have been there.

(21:32):
Yeah, So doctor Hind phoned Hadlin'sand he spoke to the man directly.
After a short time spent on idleconversation, doctor Hind asked the man
the question that was probably most importantand should have been asked well before now.
He said, I understand that youwere treated for your mental trouble by
a doctor Udwin. Would you mindtelling me who he is and where you
saw him? After a long minuteof silence, the man replied, it's

(21:56):
a long time since I've seen him. But doctor Hein was unwilling to be
deflected, and he pressed the issue, saying, but where did you see
him? Which mental hospital? Afteranother long pause, the man replied,
in a resigned tone of voice,you must know you've put two and two
together already. Yeah. But doctorHines said, it's very important that I

(22:18):
speak to him. It's very importantthat I know from him the nature of
your mental illness. So the mansaid, wait until I closed the door.
There are people outside, And then, after carefully closing the door,
he said, broad More, Iwas in broad More. I've given you
this information because you say it wasnecessary. It was it was, But

(22:41):
this is the first time that anybodywho hadn't known the man when he was
committed in his ear for his earlyoffenses, was told where he'd been treated
for his mental illness. Oh see, I mean, I suppose you could
argue he's had a moment there becausehe had a moment of admission. I
was gonna say, a moment ofclarity. But that's fucking nah. He's
no, just not. He stilldoesn't cover a fuck at all. He

(23:06):
just thinks it's another part to hit. It's like another wee feather in his
wing or whatever. You know.That's just yeah, yeah, yeah,
I was there. Yeah, he'sstill playing games. Really really don't like
him. Doctor, heind was surprised, to say the least, and he
reassured the man that this information wouldbe treated in the terms of patient doctor
confidentiality. Nonetheless, the man musthave had some inkling that he was on

(23:30):
the cusp of having his recent criminalactivities and the fact that he was already
responsible for the deaths of two peopleuncovered the fear of discovery, though,
assuming he felt and he did notalter his behavior at all, he went
home as normal at five PM,and that evening, when he visited his
sister Winifred. He made no mentionof the conversation with doctor Hind or of
Fred Biggs's death to her or herfamily. To an outside observer, he

(23:53):
seemed unconcerned. Perhaps he even believedthat his terrible actions might still go undiscovered,
or if they were, they wouldbe unprovable. There's something in that,
there, isn't it The fact thathe's leaving out enough detail to not
like pin himself on the moment,Like, you know, he's telling people

(24:14):
about stuff that's happening, but notthe bits that incriminate him at all.
But yet he's still the man that'scoming forward to say, have you looked
at this? Yeah? Exactly,there's something really it's almost like a batman
villain. Fuck it. I wasn'tgonna give him that much, Jews.
I was just gonna say. Iwas probably going to say he was a
cant again. But we'll just goon. The two doctors weren't the only

(24:37):
people who'd been made suspicious by theodd questions that they heard during their time
at Hadland's. John Hadland himself,as well as Gregory Fisher, who ran
the factory day to day, hadalso been at the meeting where the man
himself had raised the possibility of andshowed intimate knowledge of thallium poisoning. Both
the doctors had also separately raised theirconcerns about the man with John Hadland,

(24:59):
so the same day, the sameday that doctor Heines spoke to the man
on the phone, both those menwere taken to a private room in Hemel
Hempstead Police Station where they told DetectiveChief Inspector John Kirkpatrick and Detective Sergeant Robert
Livingston everything that they knew about theman and about the strange spate of sometimes
fatal illnesses that had been going onnow for as long as he had worked

(25:21):
at the factory. It's funny thisdude came out of jail and then everybody
started falling ill. Yep. Sodon't can't put my finger on what it
is though. Yeah, I know, we can look at it with twenty
twenty hindsight and looking at the booksand reading the tales and all that kind

(25:41):
of stuff, but it just feelslike mental yeah. DCI Kirkpatrick went back
that very night to the factory withJohn Hadlin to examine the employment records and
the accounts of the unexplained illnesses.It was clear that the so called Bobbingdon
bug had begun very shortly after theman had started working there, and that
those most affected were people who werein regular contact with him. The next

(26:06):
day, he made a call tohis superior detective Chief Superintendent Ronald Harvey,
to explain the full details of whathad been going on at the Headlins factory.
I don't feel like I've said thisyet, but it's a good list
of names so far strong. I'menjoying strong names. Tonight, by an
astonishing stroke of serendipity, Superintendent RonaldHarvey was at that moment attending a luncheon

(26:29):
in London alongside some of the mostnotable forensic scientists of the time. Are
you luncheon in London? Luncheon inLondon with forensic scientists as you do when
you're a chief superintendent. We've hadluncheon with a forensic psychologist we have.
I mean it was hom does thatcount? And it was a cheeseboard,

(26:51):
But cheeseboard I can't take it.Superintendent Harvey went back to his table after
taking the call, and he reallydid. All the information they'd just been
given, including the symptoms of themystery illness, to the two men who
were sat on either side of him. One of these was Keith Mant,
an eminent forensic pathologist and a studentof the famous Sir Keith Simpson, and

(27:12):
the other was Ian Holden, whowas the former director of the Older Mustin
Forensic Laboratory. What's that it's oneof the seminal and first forensic laboratories in
the UK, and they're like theogs of forensic pathology. Yeah. I
don't know about it, but Ilike I would like to we could do

(27:33):
a special. Yeah, I'm Kane, you look into it. I'll have
a read as well. Well,see if we can find some silly things
that have happened there. Silly wasn'tthe word I meant to use there,
but we'll carry on. Harvey couldn'tlater recall which of these two scientists have
spoken up first, but one ofthem immediately remarked, well, it looks
like you've got a case of fatiand poisoning on your hands. Jovially,

(27:55):
yeah, jovially. Both pathologists recommendedthat the superintendent obtain a copy of A.
J. Patrick's book titled Thallium Poisoning, as this was the only book
that covered the symptoms and the progressionof this unusual toxin. Have you had
a peruse It's an expensive book.It's a big expensive book. If you'd
like to join Patreon, never mindcarrying on anyway. At this time,

(28:17):
actually there were only three copies ofthis book in the entire country. You
can't have one of them. Oneheld in a private collection by a professor
who couldn't be contacted. One heldby the Royal Society of Medicine's library,
who never lent books out, evento the police. That's a weird caveat
well. They always brought them backwith like folded pages and tea stains on

(28:40):
the pages, motherfuckers exactly. Andone in the police forensics library in Cheshire.
And this last copy was within thehour being brought in a police car
down the country so that it couldbe used in the investigation that they blue
light it. They lifted down thecountry. Nice VIP treatment for just the
book in the back like the oh, what's it the nepronomic con I can't

(29:03):
say that word, and evil dead, Yeah, it's that special, that's
special necronomicon. Thank you. Meanwhile, officers had also returned to the Headlin's
factory and collected more evidence such asmugs and tins which the suspect was known
to have used. They also tooktheir own water samples to confirm previous tests

(29:25):
which had proved the supply free ofThopsin's DCI. Like a benchmark moment.
They would going, these didn't haveeliminate everything else to test against this exactly.
You know that it was good science. Yeah, good, I was
going to say that, but whatwas the place the forensic science? They
nailed it DCI. Kirkpatrick received lessthan satisfactory results initially from Scotland Yard when

(29:48):
they called back and they told themthey had no information regarding the man that
he'd inquired about. However, hepersevered and insisted that they checked their records
again, since he knew that hissuspect had been treated in Broadmore and that
Scotland Yard would have been given someinformation on his release. Yeah they must
hold, like, there must bea record that says this guy's been released.
Absolutely. After a short period oftime, Scotland Yard phoned back,

(30:12):
Actually, we've just found something youmight want to know. That's exactly what
they said, and they found thefile that said that he had been released
from Broadmore six months ago. Afterserving nine years at the facility for poisoning
his family and school friends. Don'tknow how to tell you this, but
we've just found a file. Hewas in broad You're right, he was
in Broadmore. You're right, Kirkpatrick, and we're sorry. And is there

(30:36):
a lot of people. There's alot of people. Hell people, yep.
Oh yeah, he's a poisoner.Buck. We should have told you
that, shouldn't YEH could have usedthat information. Sorry, you know.
With this new evidence of the suspect'spast crimes, a warrant was issued for
his arrest. On Saturday, twentiethNovember nineteen seventy one, officers went to

(30:56):
his living address, which was stillthe boarding house at twenty nine milli Yard
Road. The landlord, mister Sudik, informed then that he'd gone for the
weekend. This was true, asother officers were told the same thing by
his sister Winnifred when they called ather house. He was in fact visiting
his father and aunt in sheer nets. I don't know where that is.

(31:17):
I don't know why you're looking atme like you should know. Okay,
it's lovely, I'll google that.The officers who visited Winnifred only told her
that they needed to talk to herbrother concerning a disturbance at the Headland's factory.
However, she knew her brother welland remember the day ten years ago
when officers had come to their familyhome while her father, Fred was still
hospitalized to ask the then thirteen yearold boy some questions and closing the door

(31:42):
after speaking to the police, shemust have been reeling and wondering if her
brother was returning to his old waysand whether he'd ever actually changed at all.
Winnifred herself had been a victim ofher brother's back then, and she
had severe reservations when he had beenreleased about whether or not he truly was
cured, as the doctors that Broadmoorhad claimed now Detectives Reese and marsh were

(32:06):
the two officers who made the journeyto Kent at about eleven thirty pm and
knocked on the door of Fred's house, where the suspects his son was staying
for the weekend. When Fred answeredthe door and two of the officers identified
themselves, he felt a knot inthe pit of his stomach as a direct
consequence remember of his son's poisoning tenyears earlier. Fred was left with lifelong
health issues, and it had takenyears for him to come to terms with

(32:29):
what his son had done. Fredlater stated in an article in the Sunday
Mirror, when my son got thejob at Hadlin's and we heard that later
some of the people there were beingstruck down by a mystery bug. It
didn't click with me at first,even when mister Eggle, the storeman,
died and he took over his job, and then when mister Biggs died,

(32:49):
I tried not to face the uglythought growing in my mind. Yeah,
I wondered there I was going tosew up to But I just let you
finish that sentence, because he musthave known on a level that he knew
what his son was capable of,Oh, absolutely, but not what he
was He didn't want to believe hewas doing it again. Yeah, However,

(33:13):
as soon as Fred saw the twoofficers, he knew who they were
and what they were there for.Immediately he connected the dots in his head,
so to speak. In the sameSunday Mirror article, Fred continued,
I stood aside and pointed to thekitchen where he was making eggs sandwiches for
himself. I would not touch anythinghe had prepared. One of the policemen
immediately strode through and clapped a pairof handcuffs on him, while the other

(33:37):
officer began to read out some sortof charge. I couldn't take it all
in. I felt numb crushed.Yeah, you would imagine that in that
moment, like we know what apoliceman says to you a bit like I
can imagine just being totally out ofthe moment, Yeah, and not taking
in what was going on around you. Yeah. After briefly and futilely protesting

(33:58):
his innocence, the suspect was takenaway. As I mentioned, it had
taken Fred a long long time tocome to terms with his son's actions ten
years ago, and although he saidmany times that he'd moved on, it's
actually clear from his statement that hewouldn't touch any food prepared by his son
that he never really trusted him again, and who could blame him? Actually

(34:19):
not me, no exactly. Again. This is from the same Sunday Mirror
article. Fred recounts his actions afterthe police car, which had his son
in the back seat, drove offdown the road. He said, I
walked slowly upstairs to my bedroom,took out every photograph, tiny snapshot,
letter, and piece of paper thatcould remind me of him, even his

(34:40):
birth certificate, and tore them intosmall pieces, like I'm done with you
get to fuck Yeah, and hewas, oh, yeah, I believe
that. Yeah, I mean tobe fair, the man's put up with
a lot. Yeah, his sonpoisoned him and gave him lifelong health problems.
I mean even if you look beforethat, like he's lost his life,

(35:00):
not because of the birth, butyou know, very very quickly after
a barth yep, and the man'sbrought up. He's brought him up by
himself. Yeah, with a stepmother, with a stepmother who his son
poisoned. Yeah. There's so manyshitty bits to this, isn't there There

(35:20):
is? And now, while thiswas going on back at twenty nine Maynard
Road, Detective Sergeant Robert Livingstone wasdocumenting and removing everything that the suspect had
in his room. We're not goingto go through the full list because it's
five pages, but the pertinent evidencewas over twenty separate containers of various toxins,
some unidentified, but which included thallium, lead acetate, and antimony.

(35:45):
Antimini was the one I was tryingto think of earlier when we've talked about
the arsenal ex strict name and Antiminiusthe ones. Yeah. There were also
numerous containers of various acids used inpreparing or refining poisons, as well as
the equipment for the processes. Anumber of last bottles of ether, some
fool some partially emptied, which showedthat the suspect had again started inhaling the

(36:06):
substance for its narcotic effect. Arewe picturing like a proper chemistry lab here,
Yeah, like stuff bubbling in beakersand not literally bubbling but buns and
burners, but for the jars ofacids arranged on all the surfaces, like
a proper like mad scientist's layer.Yeah. There were also various incriminating books,

(36:30):
including An Aid to Forensic Medicine,A Dictionary of Treatments, and an
Aid to Forensic Science Story of Research. There were also numerous books on the
carbon and dark subjects, such asWitchcraft, Nazism, war and Death,
All bad things, Bad books,Bad bad books, bad books. Do
you want to I've got a badbastard's list. Do you want to have

(36:52):
a bad booklet. You want abad book list? Okay, we can
do that. Man, Mine Camphis in there. Yeah, I'll tell
you a story about Mine Camph afterthe podcast. Okay. Most importantly,
Livingston found the diary in which thesuspect documented his poisoning experiments and his plans.
We read some excerpts from this diaryin our last episode. People in

(37:13):
the diary were referred to by analphabetic code, but it was easy in
most cases to deduce who the suspectwas writing about just from the context.
It wasn't an incipherable code. No, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Bred Biggs code was FB take mea while. I've read some of
your scripts. It might take mea while when I did a couple of

(37:37):
handwritten ones at the very start thatI didn't know literally nearly that was the
end of the podcast. The suspecthimself had been taken to Sheerness Police Station,
where Detective Chief Inspector Kirkpatrick would sooncollect him and bring him to the
station in Hemel Hempstead. Once questioningbegan, led by Superintendent Harvey, it

(37:59):
went slowly, with the subject beingevasive and often simply refusing to answer The
diary of his crimes that he keptwas shown to him, and he claimed
that it was nothing more than notationsthat he'd been writing down for a work
of fiction that he'd always meant towrite. David Tilson had been discharged from
the hospital after his condition improved,but Jeff bat was still critical, and

(38:21):
as such, initial questioning was focusedon trying to discover from the suspect what
toxin he'd been poisoned with and whatthe dose had been, trying to relate
it in some way to pass poisoningsor just to know, just to know
right In the afternoon of the followingSunday, the suspect finally relented somewhat while

(38:42):
talking with DCI Kirkpatrick. Now,I think that what he does say was
motivated by his ego and his needto display his, in his mind at
least superior intelligence, rather than byany genuine concern for Jeff Batt's help.
But regardless of his reasoning, atabout three forty five pm, DCI Kirkpatrick
said, I've heard that Jeff Bats'scondition is deteriorating. He's had hallucinations and

(39:06):
appears to be suffering mentally. Thesuspect replied, well, that concerns me,
inspector, because it's obvious that thedoctors aren't treating him properly. I'm
anxious that Jeff should be properly treated, and I'll tell you what to tell
the hospital, although I won't tellyou the agent I used. They must
treat him with dimer caprool potassium chloride. Is this another God complex moment?

(39:30):
Yeah? It is. It's absolutelyhim owning the I know more than you.
Yeah. Now, unbeknownst to thesuspect, Jeff bats was actually already
being treated with dimer caalpyol potassium chloride, and he had begun responding to it.
It's the standard treatment for many heavymetal poisonings like mercury, lead,
gold, and also thallium. SoI'm not going to pretend I know anything

(39:52):
about that. But is that likejust an inherent substance that would suck up
those metals, It would bind itselfto the heavy metal poisons and take it
out and flush and flush them out? Right? Okay? I suppose that
makes like it makes sense that theywere using it without him saying to If
they were suspecting of something, youwould be treating a man for heavy metals

(40:14):
and other every other option. They'llbe treating for every option. But yeah,
but they did suspect heavy metals nowbecause of previous Yeah. Now it's
clear that the suspect knew that thejig was up, so to speak,
and in a moment, I'll readanother excerpt from later in the same interview,
when he essentially confesses to his crime, although he would later recant his

(40:36):
statement, claiming that it was madeunder duress. The suspect raises his head
and looks at the Chief Inspector andsays, I'll tell you about the two
deaths and about the sickness of theother two. I cannot tell you the
agent I used. The whole storyis too terrible. You'll be too disgusted

(40:58):
and amazed. Patrick replies, nothingyou tell me will amaze me. But
carry on. It's important that Iknow the details from you. The suspect
continued, Bob Eggel wrongly diagnosed,not acute infected polynurtis certainly on neurosis.
But you and obviously the doctors thinkthe deaths are connected, but for the
wrong reasons. The agent I usedI made up myself. What was it?

(41:23):
He asked, I can't tell youat this stage how did you introduce
it by pouring it into the teawhen at the breaks, sometimes in the
morning and sometimes in the afternoon.Pirpatrick asked, was the agent the same
in all four cases? And thesuspect said, yes, well, at

(41:44):
least for all practical purposes. Idon't know whether I should say inspector.
Then he said, yes, it'sover. The charade is Overkirkpatrick asked you
dissolve the powder first? Nodded howhe asked, just by dissolving it in
water? Was the amount the samein all the cases? No, it

(42:07):
certainly wasn't. I gave Bob onevery large dose of the powder, how
always the same at tea break hassimply poured it into the tea, and
the others David Tilson and Jeff Batttwo smaller doses of the liquid. Fred
Biggs three fair amounts of the powder. So Patrick said, I obviously want

(42:28):
you to explain everything in greater detail. Do you wish to make a written
statement? And the suspect said,no, I don't think so at this
stage. I'm not prepared to commitanything to paper. I may retract all
I've said, and he did andhe did is the best ending to any
reading I've ever heard. Thanks forthat. Out a lot going on in

(42:51):
that like last minute and a half. So he was he was admitting to
it, but not in its entirety. Yeah, he was admitting to poisoning
a few of the people he poisoned. But he also wasn't going to sign
any statement because he was going torecant everything he was saying. No matter
what I'm telling you right now,I'm going to fucking deny it exactly.

(43:15):
And you have to remember as well, the suspect could rarely resist the temptation
to display his own perceived intellectual superiority. It can be seen in the excerpts
we've just heard, and it canbe seen when he spoke up during the
Hadland's factory meeting when he himself suggestedthallium poisoning as a possible cause. I'd
also like to read two short quotesfrom a later interview with Detective Superintendent Harvey,

(43:38):
which shows the incredible scope of thesuspect's ego and I think speaks towards
the motive for why he felt compelledto do these things. Well, that's
interesting because I don't think we've we'vetouched on at all any motive really through
the past, seen a bit episodes, Not really. I'm interested, like,
I'm really interested in hearing what youwhy you've sort of selected these quotes

(44:00):
because I was going to ask youat the end, like what's your thoughts
on motive, because you've not You'venot lett much out of Ali in this
case. There's too much story,too much story. But you're right.
Hit me with your quotes and thenI'll come back to you. Detective Superintendent

(44:20):
Harvey states, you've admitted giving poisonto Bob Eggle and Fred Biggs. Their
symptoms before they died indicate they diedof poison. That is murder. You've
also given poison to several other people, six that we know of, that
maybe attempted murder. The suspect replies, in an offhand and dismissive tone,

(44:42):
that's an academic point. I couldhave killed them if i'd wished, as
I did with Biggs and Eggle,but I allowed them to live. Is
this something he's going to recant again? Yes? Right later in the same
interview, Detective Superintendent Harvey asks thesuspect what his motive was for poisoning all
these people, again with a dismissivetone. He replies, I suppose I'd

(45:07):
cease to see them as people,or more correctly, a part of me,
had they became guinea pigs. Amassive amount of removal from humanity there
isn't there. It is, butit also feels like almost a juxtaposition.
His sense of superiority, which necessitatesthat he play god and have the power
of life and death over his fellowmen and women, mixes with a level

(45:28):
of dissociation which allows him to seethose same people as little more than,
as he himself states, guinea pigs. They were experiments to him, They
were for his notes, almost likewithout going back to that point that I
made earlier, that the bit thatsticks with me most about him is the
incessant need for keeping a record ofwhat happened, meticulous and the people almost

(45:53):
become superfluous to the actual notes,Like he's looking for data and removing the
humanity. Yeah, they're subjects,They're not people. It's really fucking horrible.
It is. While the suspect wasbeing questioned, the investigation and the
search for hard evidence against him continued. Fred Biggs's body was examined by a

(46:15):
senior lecturer in forensic medicine. ProfessorHugh Molesworth Johnson. You've nailed it with
the names. It's the best namewe've ever used. Professor Hugh Molesworth Johnson.
Molesworth Johnson. Professor Molesworth Johnson.Yep, I'd listened to anything he
had to tell me. Oh,I've heard a podcast. He'd do better

(46:35):
than he was, assisted by ProfessorJohn Cavanagh, a neuropathologist. Initial fightings
that the autopsy could not confirm thepresence of thallium, so the cause of
death couldn't be established at that time. However, samples of fred Biggs organs
were sent to Nigel Fuller at theMetropolitan Police Forensic Science Laboratory for further testing.
Further testing your leading is onto thenext page. Although the cause of

(47:02):
death couldn't be confirmed, it wasestablished that the nerve degeneration, along with
other neuropathological changes, were consistent withthe effects of thallium poisoning. This was
enough at least to charge the suspectwith Fred Biggs murder while further evidence was
gathered. So late in the eveningon the twenty second of November, Detective

(47:22):
Superintendent Harvey spoke to the suspect andtold him his initial charge was that you
did on or about the nineteenth ofNovember nineteen seventy one at Bovingdon in the
County of Herretfordshire, murder Frederick ErnestWilliam Biggs against the peace. I don't
think we've heard against the peace before. No, No, it's a good
term like I like it. Afew days later, on the twenty seventh

(47:45):
of November, Bob Eggles's ashes wereexhumed from the graveyard of Saint Mary's Churchyard.
The ashes were also sent to NigelFuller for testing, along with the
ashes from another cremated body to beused as a control and comparison sample.
Okay, they're doing proper science.Like I do appreciate this part of the
podcast that we've were talking about overwhat taking this is episode four. The

(48:10):
actual science that's been done alongside policingis quite it's quite good man. I
like it. What's the police caughtand on? Everything they did was right?
We've talked about good policing is oneof my one of my go tos
when I'm finding a story to tell. The June and Avani case not something

(48:30):
I'd ever have told if it hadn'tbeen for good policing. The humbug poisoner,
good policing immediate place that was immediatepolicing. And we've talked about I
mean, we've talked about cases wherethe policing has been on the cusp of
shocking. I don't know. There'ssomething about when you know, the society

(48:55):
that's built around a police you knowwhat do we police by consent? And
you know, and when they getit right, really enjoy it? Man,
It's good, isn't it. Itis this and I'm enjoying this.
Carry on. Sorry. Nigel Fullerdiscovered high levels of thallium in Bob Eggle's
ashes and also actually in a sampleof his kidney, which, due to

(49:17):
the unusual circumstances and the symptoms ofhis death, Saint Alban's Hospital had preserved
and kept. The levels found werebetween two point five and five micrograms per
gram, which is more than afatal dose. Do we know where a
fatal dose would be one per onemicrogram program? Oh yeah, so we're

(49:38):
way above that, way above okay. So, in a landmark case for
forensics and for the criminal justice system, for the first time ever, a
suspect was charged with murder after theirvictims' ashes were exhumed and scientifically tested.
I love a first well done,Alistair, thank you for that. The
samples of fred Biggs Organs showed evenhigher levels of thallium twenty micrograms program in

(50:00):
his kidney and one hundred and twentymicrograms program in his gut us. He'd
been like, it's really really poisoned. If you're going on levels of poison,
you've got a tickle, You've gota poison and on the top of
it he's been top trumped. Yeah, that's almost one hundred and twenty times

(50:20):
what you need to kill someone.You'd win it. Top trumps for that
were definite. By the twenty secondof November, police had gathered enough evidence
to charge the suspect with the murderby deliberate poisoning of Robert Edward Eggel and
also Frederick Ernest William Biggs, obviously, the attempted murders by deliberate poisoning of
Jethrow Walter Batt and David John PriceTilson, and the administering of poisoned to

(50:45):
Ronald hewittt Peter Buck, Diana Smart, and Trevor John sparks quite a litany
of charges. We're gonna get you. It's less than a quarter of the
people he probably poisoned. Though hewas committed for trial at the Hemel Hempstead
Magistrates Court on the twenty second ofMarch nineteen seventy two. One reason for

(51:06):
the lengthy remanding custody before trial isthat he was being examined by doctors to
determine whether he was actually fit fortrial and mentally sound. I mean,
based on literally all I know ofthis case is what you've told me in
the past one thousand hours we've beentalking about it. He's one hundred percent

(51:28):
oh cases don trial he is.He knew what he was doing. Yeah,
he was at full capacity. Heknew he was wrong. He was
at full capacity. He just didn'tcare. Yes, yeah. Another reason
for the long remand actually was thatthe suspect was intending to plead not guilty
to all charges and it proved verydifficult to find a barrister who was willing
to defend him, such as thelegal system that you still need somebody to

(51:53):
stand there. Yeah. Yeah.The trial began on the nineteenth or June
nineteen seven. To it Saint Alban'sCrown Court. It was presided over by
Judge Justice Eveley, an ex armyofficer who still brought his black cap to
every trial. Yes, Ish,I can't decide. I mean, I

(52:15):
don't mind that he's got it inhis back pocket because he can't he can't
use it. Yeah, he can'tuse it, but he can he can
squeeze it in his back pocket whenhe wants to. Yeah, like a
stress ball, like a stress deathcap. Nice. Then the prosecution was
led by John Leonard q C,and the barrister finally found to lead the

(52:36):
defense was Arthur Irvin, QC.I was gonna say, do you think
he went on to have an illustriouscareer? But if he was the one,
they didn't he found. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not pulling
big billy big balls on this guy. He didn't. I did look them
up. There nothing exciting, They'renothing and then exciting. Then the prosecution

(52:58):
called more than forty witness to thestand and the trial would last ten days,
So we won't go into too muchdetail. It was decided that the
evidence of the suspect's previous crimes andconviction would not be admissible. That's not
what he's been tried for. I'mall right with that might prejudice the jury
to his guilt of the crimes thathad actually been charged. With everyone who

(53:20):
had survived being poisoned by the suspectthat Hadlin's gave testimony. Bob Eggles and
Fred Biggs widows testified, Nigel Fullertestified, and the forensic evidence proving that
Bob Eggle and Fred Biggs both diedfrom thallium poison was presented. The suspect's
diary that he kept documenting his crimeswas meticulously read out in full to the

(53:42):
jury. I was going to saythat by the time you get to the
court case here, he's literally damnedhimself. Oh yeah, by keeping that
level of experimental detail, giving itthe name he Deen might have given it
rather than we'd call it fucking nonsense. You're going to get fucked for this.

(54:06):
He's literally written his own prison card. Yeah, he's documented everything that
he's done everything and then not.But this is the interesting thing though,
is kept it yep, and theykept It's the bit that like not that
I don't mind that he's keeping detailsof his poisonings and his experiments on human
beings, but then the ability tothen just distance yourself from the fact that

(54:31):
that is one hundred percent what's goingto fuck you, and not get rid
of it and keep it forever.It's just I can't comprehend that that level
of disdain for the system almost it'sit's the superiority to complex times twenty oh.

(54:52):
Yeah, we're going above God complexhere. He's big bang complex.
It's true. Kirkpatrick and Detective SuperintendentHayes both testified to the suspect's confession during
questioning, even though the suspect laterclaimed that his statements were false and he'd
never actually signed them. This isthe bit you were talking about. He's

(55:14):
literally going, nah, yeah.The contents of his bedsit at twenty nine
mien Yard Road were submitted. Theseincluded enough poison to kill dozens and dozens
of people, including large amounts ofthallium. His unusual knowledge of poisons and
toxicology was testified to by the doctorswho had questioned him at Hadlin's factory.

(55:36):
So they they did a good levelof sorry, what am I trying to
say here? So they did agood level of collecting of knowledge. Like
they went around and went did thisguy feel like he was in like he
was doing it deliberately, yes,and speaking to co workers and stuff like
that. It's not like Maggie wasalways sick. No, it was why

(56:01):
was Maggie off that? I know. Maggie wasn't one of them. I'm
just as an example, Diane wasDiane. We'll go with Diane. Dan
wasn't always sick. Most of themwere never sick, but they were.
Meg had never taken a sick dayin his life in forty years or something
like that working at the factory,and they were only sick suspiciously weeks after

(56:22):
our perpetrator was released from BRODMO.Yes, I mean add it up yourself.
I know with twenty twenty hindsight thoughwe weren't there, but the police
are. They're doing the right thing. They bring the right things to trial
and looking at the moments that go. Even though we have this incredible journal
of crime, we still need peopleto stand up there and say this is

(56:46):
and then he has claimed on morethan one occasion that the Journal of Crime
is fiction. The Journal of Crimeis my favorite thing I've said in a
while. By the way, thanksman. The case for the defense was
that an obsession with poisons, andeven a veritable stockpile of poisons did not
make someone guilty. Further, anyconfession he'd given was under duress and was

(57:09):
false, and nobody had actually seenthe suspect poison any t at Hadlin's factory.
The evidence was in the most partcircumstantial, incredibly convincing. There was
a swave of it, but itwas circumstantial. Is it circumstantial when they
write it down? If the jurybelieved that it was a work of fiction,

(57:32):
I mean, it wasn't. Itwasn't. No, and the jury
didn't believe that. Okay, cool, But Sir Arthur Irvin really did a
good job of putting doubt into thejury. If not doubt about the suspect's
guilt, then certainly doubt about theprosecution's ability to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
And there are two very different questions. They are the suspect himself took

(57:59):
the stand. How could his egolet him not have stood in front of
so many people and display his intelligence? Literally about to say, of course
he did, because that's his moment, Yeah, exactly, that's his moment
in the limelight. Yeah, yeah, totally. He displayed to the jury
his extensive knowledge of poisoning and poisonsduring cross examination, and to be honest,

(58:21):
his claimed that the diary was thework of fiction seemed laughable when it
corresponded exactly to real life events andtimelines. It can only be fiction if
it didn't happen. Yes, butall of this happened, and he wrote
it down quite to the letter,specifically, yes that. I'm really glad

(58:45):
you've already told me. The jurydidn't buy it, because I'd have been
angry at them if you hadn't toldme that point already. The jury didn't
buy it, but the suspect didcome across to the jury as intelligent,
well spoken, quiet, and eventimes. In one interaction with John Leonard
for the prosecution, the suspect remarked, since when have poisoners been known for

(59:07):
their lack of humor? When JohnLeonard replied, wait, what say that
again? Since when have poisoners beenknown for their lack of humor? What
are poisoners known for? I don'tknow. There's some fucking poisoning people.
That's a redundant statement as far asI'm concerned. Well, when mister Leonard

(59:28):
replied, I don't know. I'venever met any The suspect bowed his head
and said, why, thank you, mister Leonard. Right, So,
I think, just to go backa couple of sentences there, I'm not
surprised that the jury and the courtfound him an intelligent, well spoken,

(59:51):
presentable man. That does not surpriseme by what you've told me about him.
The notes he kept were meticulous,as you say, matically correct,
and an intelligent human being. However, I've never met a poisoner per se.
Is like the biggest wank thing I'veheard. When that guy's clearly a

(01:00:13):
poisoner in front of Yes, butI understand he's doing his job. But
at the same time, you don'tneed to do that. I'm just sorry.
I've got a little bit riled aboutthat album you ran away, Bob.
I won't because you've got about fortyfive pages to go. I only
got two pages to go. Really. When the trial concluded on the twenty

(01:00:35):
ninth of June, the jury tooka full hour and thirteen to eight minutes
to reach a conclusion. Holy shit, I thought we were going to go
for a record. Here what we'vedone three minutes, four minute juries We've
done a zero. We have donea zero. Bit Wait a minute,
have we not. No, we'rerecording a zero after this, look forward
to that. But we have done. But yeah, we've done like a
two minute. They just walk outand come back, sit down, make

(01:00:58):
a cup of tea, and fuckingwhy are we here? Yeah, that
guy used to go to jail.We've done them. Yeah, you're doing
me a zero. Yeah, I'mgoing to zero next to him. I
really enjoy this case. You're tellingme right now, But I'm quite excited
about the next one anyway. Withthe suspects family watching on from the gallery,
apart from his father Fred, whohad finally completely disowned him, the

(01:01:22):
suspects stood and waited for the verdict. When the foreman stood, he pronounced
the suspect guilty of the murder ofBob Eggel and Fred Biggs, guilty of
the attempted murder of Jeth Robat andDavid Tilson, guilty of poisoning Ronald Hewitt
and Diana Smart for the charges ofpoisoning Peter Buck and Trevor Sparks. It

(01:01:45):
was deemed there was insufficient evidence toreach a definite conclusion. I really enjoying
that list right to the last minutethere al, there's a lot of guilties
already. Well, there is alot of guilties, but he was guilty
of the rest of them. Oh, he was. Absolutely, he's going
to get a prison sentence. Ipresume that justifies his cause at the time

(01:02:07):
of he does justifying him. That'snot the right words. But you know
what make words good, Bob doesn'tmake I'm really struggling with moors nightl For
those of you that are continuing listening, we've done a lot of redo moments,
more than ever I think tonight,I'm not doing good with words.
Before Judge evilely sentenced the suspect,the court were made aware of his previous

(01:02:30):
crimes, as they should have been. This is the problem. These crimes
could have stopped earlier. Absolutely,if his employer had been given the information
at the right time. I wouldimagine the information the court are about to
be given now. Yes, thesecrimes could have stopped and people's lives could

(01:02:51):
have been saved. Yes, Whenhis previous crimes were read out, there
was a noted intake of breath fromthe court and from the jury alike,
because they'd taken an hour in thirtyeight minutes to deliberate over this. That's
an hour and thirty eight minutes wherethey were like, did he do it?
Didn't he do it? And thenthey find out that he's killed his
own stepmother before. Yeah, ifthey'd had that, if they'd had that

(01:03:15):
knowledge, we're going on a fouror five minute jury. Yeah, and
it had been out and in Yeah, cup of tea, nice biscuit back
in. Yeah. The former ofthe jury also stood up again before sentencing
and asked to make a statement onthe jury's behalf. Judge, evily unsure

(01:03:35):
of this break from normal court protocol, said in the circumstances that would be
highly undesirable, undesirable, undesirable,but the former insisted good, and he
told the court the members of thejury in this case consider it to be
our duty to draw the attention ofthe authorities concerned to the failings of the

(01:03:58):
present system by which poisons are soldto the public. We urge that the
system be reviewed in order that infuture the public may be more consistently safeguarded.
This is fucking wonderful, alt,It's an applaud from that jury right
now. I've got a huge amountof do we know the foreman's name?
We don't. We don't. That'sa really sad moment. I wonder if

(01:04:20):
we could find that out. Wecan absolutely find that. I'd like to
find that out trying to post abat. I've seen the court documents.
I just never thought to write itdown. Oh good, good, thanks
for that. Four fucking episodes innever Mind. That's a wonderful moment.
Is good, isn't it? Becauseactually that from what we nineteen seventy,

(01:04:40):
nineteen seventy two, nineteen seventy twoto now fifty years not a lifetime ago,
no, but not a small amountof time ago. But what he
said then is like literally what Iwould expect now exactly. And I hope
that that's the moment that it changedit. And yes, it is,
it's the moment it started to change. We'll get to that a bit later.

(01:05:02):
Cool Evely thanked the jury for theirattention in this nasty case, and
then sentenced to suspect to ten yearsfor poisoning Diana Smart and Roland Hewitt,
and to four consecutive life sentences forBob Egel, Fred Biggs, David Tilson,
and jeth Rowbat. The way youread that really annoyed me, you

(01:05:24):
know, and you would. Ireally did. But ten years and then
I was about to jump on you. And then four consecutive life sentences.
I'm back in the court, backall right now. However, that was
so English court. Four consecutive licensesare life sentences, so you would see

(01:05:44):
your days out in a jail.I'm not We've talked about this a million
times. Capital punishment is not somethingthat's on my radar. I don't believe
in it. Fifteen twenty years whatwas the ninth fifty four was last hanged
person in the UK around a bitthen. Anyway, in his lifetime,

(01:06:09):
people were being executed. Yep,he's a lucky man. He was a
very lucky man. Choose your luck. But that he could have in his
lifetime been hanged or executed. Sorry, would have been hanged, would have
been hanged. Yeah, But I'mlike I said, I'm not a fan
of capital punishment. I don't believein it because you can get it wrong.

(01:06:30):
However, we've all been always beenbelievers in the top level of punishment
for the time frame that it's handedout in. Yeah, just like I'm
going to put her there fifteen yearstwo later. It's true, but the
man guilty of these awful crimes,was sent to Pankhurst on the Isle of

(01:06:51):
Wight, where he would die thirteenyears later, on the first of August
nineteen ninety. We were eight yearsold when he died. Yep, like
this is we've said this, andyou checked with me before we did this
case, is it already to doit? Because it's in living memory,
we don't generally touch it. However, eight years What were we doing when

(01:07:16):
we were eight? Suit? We'donly met about a year before that.
Yeah, yeah, you were inthe hills with the Scouts. I was
eating all your chocolate at your house. I had hypothermia. Yeah, yeah,
something wrong, weird, But Ihad a lovely time with your mom
and dad. Yes, thanks,first time I ever met your sister and
your dog. A love of theday. And then you came home like
slightly blue and like whiney with hypothermia. I'd been lost in the hills.

(01:07:40):
Wee a bit Whinney. Thank youfor calling that childhood trauma. But that's
literally like that's the same, literallythe same time period that we're talking about.
Yeah, I mean, I knowthe nineties is like thirty odd years
ago, which makes me also sad. And old, not old, to

(01:08:00):
shut your mouth. We're pretty old. Now we're middle aged and we're having
a podcast breakdown currently. Sorry,So I just wanted this. So he'd
been sentenced indefinite, essentially, Ishall never get out, as Jesus said,
thou shalt never get out, Andthirteen years after being incarcerated, he

(01:08:23):
died in ninety ninety. Yes,it's like now really struggling with being on
board with this, if I'm honest. Well, as a direct result of
the case, complete reviews were doneof the procedure for releasing criminal psychiatric patients,
okay, and significant changes were madeindulge me to the point that I

(01:08:47):
would guess that you if you've beenin somewhere like broad More or another psychiatric
hospital, which we don't call themthat anymore, you're fool, disclosure would
have to been given to a newemployer. Yes, I think that's the
most important thing we've taking away isspecifically from this episode. They also brought
in outside reviewing by another psychiatrist before, like an accent was reviewed at arms

(01:09:16):
length person exactly, so rather thanan institutionalized psychologist, a psychologist sorry that
mediation between release and work. Yeah, there has to be something in there
now Yeah, great, Yeah,I know. And also more stringent requirements
were made to the system by whichpeople can obtain poisons, and the existing

(01:09:39):
regulations were far more strongly enforced.Yeah. I think that's the takeaway from
what you were saying earlier, likethe ability to buy what is more than
a rodent poison or a like Actually, I would imagine for you and I
to buy strictn we can't. No, we can't buy arsenic in any form,

(01:10:02):
thallium or thallium. Is this thechange point? Yeah, this is
where it starts. This is literallylike, that's the change point. Now,
good because I don't need it meneither. No, and only people
who need it are bad bastards orpeople who do need it. I'm sure
there's a reason, but not youraverage Joe, No, or John or

(01:10:30):
James or George or Georgia. Idon't know. Why are they all jays?
Stephen? You know he can haveit enough now, that's the end
of his story. He poisoned dozensof people, including his own step mother
and co workers, to satisfy hisown ego. He cherished his own superiority
while holding his fellow men and womenin near contempt. But he wasn't some

(01:10:55):
evil genius. He was obsessive invery particular fields, but no more than
that. He suffered various adverse childhoodexperiences, and he was clearly disturbed and
developmentally impaired from a young age,which went untreated for years. He was
chilling in his dissociation and in hiscomplete lack of empathy. But he was

(01:11:16):
mentally ill. Was he evil?His crimes were evil. He committed them
in full understanding of what he wasdoing. The British justice system deemed him
fit to take responsibility for them.But I also believe that had he been
born today, tell tale signs ofhis mental illness would have been noticed and
diagnosed in his childhood, and hislife might play out quite differently. The

(01:11:41):
reality, though, is that,whether by nature or nurture, this man
was made into a cold and calculatingkiller, an egotist who wanted to be
one of the best known poisoners ofall times. He wrote a note once
which said, make me so famousthat I wind up in the Chamber of
Horrors at Madame Tuo swords. Iwant to go down in history as a

(01:12:04):
really famous murderer. He wanted onthe bad bastard list. He wanted on
the bad bastard list. Sadly hegot his wish, even down to the
waxworks in Madam two Swords, whichwas placed beside his idols, doctor Harvey
Cripman and William Palmer. I don'tlike that. Well, it doesn't have

(01:12:28):
to be the way he wished.Time changes everybody's legacy. After listening to
these four episodes, I hope youremember the victims, those who died,
Molly pet Leigh, Bob Eggel andFred Biggs, and those who suffered David
Tilson, jethrowbat, Diane Smart,Ronald Hewitt, and the countless others.
If you think about Graham Frederick Young, the man known as the Teacup Poisoner,

(01:12:53):
at all, think of him asa mentally ill, severely disturbed individual
who should be for being born ata time when society was ill equipped to
help him, and who did evilthings. And that is the concluding part
of the Teacup trilogy in four parts. In four parts, I mean thank

(01:13:19):
you. I oh my god,I went down to such a hole in
this one. You did. We'llcome back to that in a minute.
I've got a couple of like Iactually wrote some notes down while you were
talking there, because it's not oftenthat I do that. We just tend
to do them at the time.The one thing is I want to check
in with Sarah that she's all right, because you said earlier that he was

(01:13:39):
a man who read about poisoners andyeah and became one. Yeah, right,
which is all I've done for thepast fucking age. So are you
all right? I'm okay, You'reokay, and we're going to get off
poisonous for a while. Yeah.Can we get onto other crimes for a
while? I give you this bye. You don't have to talk about crime

(01:14:00):
in your next episode. Oh wow, whoa twisted Britain cannot have crime in
it, just because because of what'shappened. I'm giving you this buy ah.
The other thing I was going tosay is I don't think you've every
word used the word evil before.No, and I don't think I don't

(01:14:24):
think that he was evil. Ifind it interesting because I mean, as
a man who knows you for thepast best part of four decades or whatever
it is, you don't I wassurprised when you use the word evil there,
because it's not something that you wouldthrow about quite easily. It's not,
and I just I took a lotfrom you saying that, because it

(01:14:47):
was clearly part of this rabbit holethat you've gone down. You've really like
taken away from it. And thefact that you've gone what four episodes like
seventy three thousand now or something likethat without saying his name means a lot.
We said it once and we willnever say it again. We will
never say it again because he wantedto be known as the world's most famous

(01:15:11):
boys and us. So he doesn'tmake my bad bastard list, No,
because I don't want to write hisname now exactly. We'll go from there.
The other thing I wanted to pickyou up on, just mildly not
something that you said, but youwill alluded to the fact that he wanted
to be known. He did,but he also thought he was better than
the police force. He thought hewas above the rest. We've had a

(01:15:34):
case like that in Scotland recently andit's resulted in the second longest prison sentence
ever handed out to a human being. I'll not say his name because I
had the displeasure of being in GlasgowHigh Court while he was being tried.

(01:15:55):
The murder of Emma Caldwell is oneof the case that will stand in Scottish
history forever. And what happened tothe sex workers of the East end of
Glasgow is just horrific. But theman who was given a thirty six year
sentence, and it is the secondlongest sentence ever given to a single perpetrator

(01:16:18):
of a crime, so the onlylongest longer sentence was given to the world's
end murders. And we'll also notever say his name either. But the
interesting thing about Emma Caldwell case isthe perpetrator in that case came forward and
gave an interview to the BBC andsat in a room with one of today's

(01:16:41):
most wonderful invisit give journalists, awoman by the name of Sam Pauling,
and sat down with her and almostchallenged her to find him guilty and gave
give her an open interview and walkedout. This is thirty years after the
fact. Excuse it's not quite thirtyExcuse my knowledge of the details there.

(01:17:03):
But he literally came into a roomand sat down with an investigative journalist,
one of the best in the industry, and went, I can't believe they
they thought I was, and here'ssome details. And Sam went away and
went, I've got you. Ijust need to get you. And people
like that get caught, and that'ssorry. That was the point I was

(01:17:26):
coming back to. So your manhere, who's got god complex? That
went, I can just give youa wee bit more and a wee bit
more that show you how clever Iam, how much more clever than you
I am. That desire for provingthemselves better than somebody is what eventually has
got them both caught. And Ihate it because they think they're better than

(01:17:49):
you. I love it because thecourt system finds them out and they get
done. In both cases, they'vebeen sentenced to the top of the law.
Yep, that was available at thetime, and it's just what both
of us are adamant that we willbelieve in. We don't believe in the
definitely, but we believe in thethe last sentence the law can give,

(01:18:11):
the last sentence or the top center. It's top sentence that you can get
contemporarily. And that's literally I wrotethat down during the middle because it just
it baffled me because when we weretalking about it, I was like,
that's exactly what happened in the EmaCalller case, and it's it's something that
I'll not talk about or we'll nottalk about the podcast until we're like one
hundred and forty because it then it'sout of living memory. But it just

(01:18:33):
there's so much resonance in that I'mbetter than you mentality that really fucks me
off. Anyway, there's my mildrant. That is a good rant.
Thank you very much for four episodeson that alistair, four episodes on that
So answer me this, riddle methis what I wonder, Why this case

(01:18:56):
for this many episodes? Why thiscase for this many episodes? Odes this
case for this many episodes? Becausemuch like the Jesse King episode, which
I went on a little hole downnear the start of when I started Twisted
Britain, the psychology of the suspectinterested me. I wanted to know what

(01:19:23):
could make somebody do something that terrible. So it's it's the humanity of it,
it's the where it is your brainspace. I don't necessarily believe in
I do believe in evil people.I think there's far fewer evil people than
we think out there. Most people, the most crimes are committed by people

(01:19:46):
who are driven to it in someway. We might not agree with what's
brought them there, we might notagree with their reasons for doing it,
but they're fathomable. This is oneof the first cases we've talked about.
Now, while that I would saythat doesn't end up in what we've cliched,
almost as it's all about money.No, this one was nothing about

(01:20:08):
that exactly. This was all aboutIn fact, I don't even know what
it was about. Was it aboutinformation? Was it about This was about
information and power? It was power. You're right, absolutely most power.
Yeah. Is that god complex thatgoes alongside it. Yes, it's very
rare that we've talked about and likeand I include the fifty odd episodes that

(01:20:29):
Nadine and I did before you joined. It's very rare that we talk about
something that is easily removable from Wedid this for the inheritance. We did
this because of this. It wasa it was a mad moment, you
know, none of these were madmoments, none of these. This was
a cold calculated killer, yeah.Experimental turned killer. Yeah, an experimenter

(01:20:53):
who thought so little of his fellowman that he could just kill them.
So is that where they is thatwhere they intrigue. I don't want to
use the word interest, but isthat where the intrigue falls with you is
like where's the brain space? Yah? Where's the brain space? Why did
he do it? And what turnedhim into the kind of person that could
do that? So why did hedo it? He did it because he

(01:21:19):
was developmentally challenged. He needed thatpower trip, that power over his fellow
man as validation. So he hasperceived intellectual superiority. So if he removed
the mental capabilities, because he wasclearly a smart man. Yeah, he

(01:21:39):
was clever in very specific fields toxicologyand medicine. Knew everything about it,
social side, social side, ZIPand things that weren't medical or toxological he
wouldn't have known about. His knowledgeof biology or physics was non existent.
It was just toxicology, Jay,forensics, medicine. You'd have made a

(01:22:02):
good cop, Yeah, maybe researchingit or a good forensic scientist, maybe
researching it a slightly different way.And I'll tell you what, I'm not
going to question what we might do. Maybe we'll do an episode where you
and I, well, I'll justask you why this one and a few

(01:22:23):
others. Yeah, because there's certainlydifferences between the cases that you and I
find when we're looking for cases,and maybe we'll do an episode where we
just ask each other why this one, why that one? Why that route?
And we'll pop that out sometime.I don't want to take any more
time because we've done four episodes onthis and we're probably up at the six

(01:22:44):
hour market at this point, whichin fact they are, thank you very
much. Else So that was anabsolute pleasure and a drain on you.
I can tell you're probably quite happyto be finished on it. Yeah,
I am. Actually when move onsomething different next time? Yes, I'll
tell you a story next time.How about that? No, we're recording
next time in like two minutes.We're not, because it's eleven minutes past

(01:23:04):
eleven. We'll manage it. No, we won't. We'll have a drink
and we'll have a chat with Andreaand her husband and we will just have
a nice evening. I reckon wecould do it. I've got nothing else.
I think this isn't this isn't thecase. I don't think we need
to stretch out on I think we'vesaid our bits and pieces. If you
enjoyed this, as always, youcan find us on all the social media

(01:23:25):
channels. Just look for Twisted Britainthat google it you'll find us. Yeah
we're there, X gonna give itto you. Smash the light bar.
There we are. I don't reallyhave anything else. I'm done. No.
Thanks for listening to me for fourepisodes, everyone who's stuck it through
for the full four and thank you, love you bye, and thank you
Alistair for doing that. And thankyou love you bye. Thanka you few

(01:23:51):
Bye. I can hear yourself.Thanka you bye for Fodd