August 31, 2024 • 51 mins
This week on twisted Britain Bob tells the mysterious case of the death of Edwin Rose On goatfell On the isle of Arran Off the coast of Scotland where 2 men went up a Mountain and only I came down again
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Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to Twisted Britain, the podcast in true
crime written with a sprinkle of the weird in the
cabin Your host Sammy Bob Dale and me Ali Downey.
Good evening, Ali Downey, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I am fantastic. It's a fabulous day down in Bournemouth today.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I guess you're in Bournemouth. I am in the settling
as always. This is our second attempt at recording this evening. Yeah,
new normal, it's becoming the new normal. Me struggling technology
while you sit and watch me from afar. Thanks for that. Yeah,
I love it. How was Bournemouth? And it was a
(01:10):
lovely day today? It's so much sunnier down here. It
was really windy here, really fucking windy. I was for
work out of the airport today. Never mind why I
was at the airport. But see watching the planes come
in when they're like ski wif coming in, it's fucking scary.
(01:30):
It's amazing. I love watching that ire vaporization when they land. Yeah,
and I thought you were going to say, you like,
what have you seen that guy? What's his name? The
aeroplane guy on YouTube that just goes to airports and
films fucking planes coming in at weird angles. Yeah, let's
go with a big plane TV or some shit like that. Anyway,
(01:55):
we move swiftly on to I'm going to tell you
a case this evening. It's been a up with wee
while since we've done that, it.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Has, and this one's been coming for a wee while too.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah. I promised to tell you a couple of weeks ago,
and then something happened, and then last week we had
the pleasure of the Stirling University two Crowme Society joined us,
which was a lovely night. It was great.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It was nice to have a completely captive audience.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, and they were good. They did some questions and
answer and stuff at the end and it was good fun.
There was a bit what would you say about twenty
of the men, Maybe not quite that many, but something
like that.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, it about twenty of the men, but they said
there was a like fifty of them in the club.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That's a big true crime club, yep. And we're going
to get them back in another time hopefully. But I
thought I would tell you a tale this evening, as
you say, one that's been in the post for a while.
I've told you I was going to do it weeks ago,
and true Bob fashion, though I'd written you know, two
thirsty three quarters of it a couple of weeks ago,
and then we had to go back and reread my
(02:55):
absolute fucking nonsense to finish the case this week. But
never mind. We have a tale for you and I
and I shall tell you a tale. Tell me a
tale tonight. I would like to tell you the tale
of two men going up a mountain and one man
coming back down. You love a mountain story, you do?
(03:16):
You know what I do? I love the mountains full
stop and adding some mystery, a possible murder in the mix,
and it's very It's very me for a twisted Britain story.
I feel. The last mountain I covered was Everest. Our
friend oh what was his name now? Names escaped me.
(03:36):
They tried to fly to Everest and climb it, and
yeah it legend, but his name will come to me either,
not at all. This mountain, however, I'm going to talk
about this evening, is ever so slightly closer to home.
It's also very much smaller than Everest. And would tell
(04:00):
you this evening about the death of Edwin Rose on
goat Fell on the Isle of Aaron. I've climbed it,
have you? I was going to ask you. That was
literally my next words I have with my Annie Marguerite.
So it is the highest mountain on Aaron. I thought,
(04:20):
I'll tell you a wee there'll be people listening to this.
I've never been Tarron or or know where it is,
so I thought a little bit about Aaron before we
get started. Good Whiskey, Great Whiskey, Great Distillery Tour as well.
Aaron is the seventh largest Scottish island, lying in the
(04:42):
Firth of Clyde, only about forty five minutes on the
ferry from the mainland. And as I said, I've had
the pleasure going a couple of times, once with my
family and my brother, with my brother when we were
much smaller, once more recently for a stag do where
we partook in some of the very tasty whiskey that
they have on offer. And I'm it's literally about to
go and I know you've been. Have you claimed? Goatfeller
(05:03):
is what I've written down here, but we've covered that already.
Just the ones, yeah, just the ones. So the interesting
thing about the mountains on Iaran is Aaron sometimes referred
to as Scotland and miniature. And it's only during the
research for this case I understood why. I just thought
(05:23):
it was because it was a tiny beee version of Scotland,
which it is, but it's a lot more scientific than that.
The tectonic fault line that runs through Scotland that makes
the highlands and the lowlands runs directly through Iron, so
it means that on the island itself it has a
(05:45):
highland and a lowland almost almost in mimicking of the mainland,
and Goatfeld lies in the mini Highlands. We'll go with
the mini Highlands. And it stands at two thousand and
eight feet, making it a corbett in Scottish terms, which
is a mountain between two thousand and three thousand feet tall,
(06:06):
where mountain over the height of three thousand feet is
a monroe. The hill itself is quite a imposing feature
on the island. In fact, you can see it from
the mainland and you know me, I could quite happily
talk about mountains for probably the entire of a podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well you did during the Everest podcast and I'm about
to Morris Wilson, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yes, the legend that is Morris Wilson. Yeah, as I said,
I could talfinually talk about mountain and then that everything
there's there was almost a bit about the mountain. I'm
going to do the same. Obviously we'll go on to
talk about the crime that happens on the mountain later on.
The last thing I would say about the mountain itself
(06:58):
and its geography, now you'll be able to confirms better
than me, as I've not been up is it's one
of these hills that's got kind of a recognized up
and down path and you don't stray from it, like
it's got a route that you take. Yeah. And that's
and I make a point of that saying that because
sometimes if you go off the path, not in all
(07:20):
Scottish mountains, but if you go off the path sometimes
you can find yourself more prone to a bit of bother,
shall we say, yes? And that is certainly the case
with Goatfell. So the case I'd like to tell you
about tonight is the goat Fell murder, the Aaron mystery,
the Aaron murder. It gets a few different names depending
(07:41):
on where you're looking at the sources. I've gone with
the Goltfell murder just because I like the word goatfell.
And it happened in the summer of eighteen eighty nine. Now,
at this time Aaron was a destination holiday place, not
that it isn't now, but it would have been much
more so. The Victorian age. People would have gone out
on steamers from the Clyde and On via Butte to
(08:02):
Aaron and background. You know that a mini mini crews
I suppose, yeah, Iland Hobbin. Yeah, just as their Victorian
upper class holiday. So let me introduce you to two
men who before this summer did not know each other,
Edwin Rose and John Laurie. John Edwin Rose was a
(08:28):
clerk working in London, a banking clerk that's like a
building's clerk working in London, and he'd planned his summer
holiday to travel up to Ourdrussen where he would get
the ferry to Rothsay on Butte, where he'd based himself
for a holiday between Butte and Aaron, using the paddle
streamer to travel to the bigger island for iron for
walking in the mountains. John Laurie, on the other hand,
(08:49):
was a pattern maker in the iron works in Springburn
in Glasgow. So without taking him down too much, he
was certainly the other end of the social spectrum than
Edwin Rose was. But the two men would pass sorry
and the two men would cross paths on the paddle
steamer heading for Broddick on the Isle of Aaron, which
(09:11):
is the largest town there where they had sought some residents.
Edwin was on his holidays and John was technically too,
but he had another motive for visiting the island. He
was there to get some time away from work. But
he was also there chasing a lost love. An ex
girlfriend of his was to Manny another man and he's
(09:31):
a wee bitty pissed off by it. So he was
a way to see what was going on with that.
Oh yeah, oh but we'll carry on. Actually, Like that's
the reason he's on Aaron is because of the woman,
but very little of the fact that he's on the
(09:52):
island for the woman takes president and the rest of
the case. But it's really pertinent to the story because
that's the reason why he went to Aaron, and that's
the only reason why these two men happened across each
other when they're on the ferry. Whilst they're on that ferry,
they also make the acquaintance of two other men, and
they form a seemingly weird boy band esque true, so
(10:15):
they spend a good few days together boating and walking,
and I would hazard a guess at drinking and making
merry together on the island. Nice John Laurie, however, whilst
traveling introduced himself under a different name. He used the
name John Annandale, and one can only presume he did
that to stop the previous girlfriend hearing him about him
(10:37):
being on the boat over small island life. I would
imagine news travels quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
All right, So it's less cute then if she absolutely
didn't want to see him, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Definitely less cute than the initial or sinuated because he
was there as a jealous X.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Basically, yeah, it's a little bit more stockery than romantic.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh yeah, we're We're definitely on that level for sure.
And weirdly though, I would say, just based on the
reading that I'd done, his stalkeriness, maybe moves away from
her and like attaches himself to Edwin Rose, Like he
seems to have made this really quick bond with somebody
(11:21):
that he's met on a boat and two other guys.
The two other guys do leave slightly earlier, and I'll
get to that in a bit. But he seems just
to almost have gone. I went for this reason, but
actually I met this dude and I'm like hanging on
at him now. Anyway, that's just some side thoughts. Two six,
(11:42):
that's think he'll be out. Sorry, your grand So these
four men on the boat take up a holiday residence
together that I'm fairly certain was accommodation that John ann
and Dale John Laurie had sorted. I'm probably just gonna
go with John Lorry for the most of it, because
(12:03):
he does introduce himself as John and Andale to different people,
but he's tried under the name of John Laurie, and
it's the one that I kind of went, well, that's him. Yeah,
that's his name. Yeah, exactly, Well that does it nearly
didn't fit through the bars. No, either way, it doesn't
(12:27):
matter which what I'm gonna call him. They spend a
few days in early July of eighteen eighty nine, and
they seem to be having a nice time away. I
will say that the two other men who are unnamed
in this story, because I couldn't get a definitive between
the different readings I got as to what their names were,
so I've just gone with the two other men. Yeah,
(12:49):
they become a slightly suspicious of John. It could be
as simple as they had a bit of a bad
feeling about him, because there was definitely something going on.
But I would also have to sug guests that there's
probably a bit of a difference in social standings between
the group of three, the two men and Edwin and
John separately. I think there was probably some social class
(13:10):
going on there. There was also some noise about how
John had had toothache the entire time he was there,
so he was slightly distant, and that either way, the
two unnamed men had a bit of an uneasy feeling
about John, and they had said to Edwin to be
a bit wary of him. Not no specific like I
(13:33):
think he's a threat.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
But just giving off weird vibes.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, exactly. That, Yeah, totally. And the two gentlemen come
to leave the island on the fourteenth of July, which
is a few days before John would certainly, and a
long time before Edwind would. On this time, however, they
warned Edwin to be on his guard. After the two left,
(14:02):
John suggested that the pair of them now that we
were alone could take on the summit of Goat Fell,
as the view from the top would be more than
enough reason to climb the hill. And why do we
climb hills because they're there? Because, as Edward Hillary once said,
because they're there, and the challenge and the view and
all the nonsense that goes with it, but predominantly because
(14:24):
they're there. Apparently that was he didn't mean to say that,
he just said it. So in the early afternoon of
the fifteenth of July, the pair set off to climb
Goat Fell. They were seen on the summit in the
early evening by several other walkers. I think it was
about five. Other people testified that they had seen both
(14:45):
of them on the summit. This, however, was the last
time that anyone would see Edwin Rose alive. Now, no
one to this day knows what happened to Edwin Rose
on the descent of that mountain. We do know that
John Lorry was seen later that evening after descending the
mountain in the Correy Hotel about ten PM by himself,
(15:07):
where he bought some beers and some whiskeys to see
him down the road to his lodgings in Brodock, which
was about six miles away. I mean, a few travel
cans is always a good plan the road is one
for the road, or in this case several for the road.
The only time it's not a good plan is possibly
when you've committed a horrible murder. But we'll get to
(15:30):
that in a bit. The landlady of the lodgings that
the pair been staying in said that by the morning
the following day, both Edwin Rose and John Lorry's bags
had been removed from the place, and that he had
abscondered without paying. John Lorrie was seen carrying bags to
the pier and broughtock to board the early morning ferry
off of the island. Cheez It by Sea. I think
(15:52):
this is the first cheese it by sea we've had.
I think it might be.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
We would cheese it by canal, and we've had cheese it.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
By plane, but I think this might be the cheese
itt by sea the first ever.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, we've had cheese it by motorbike.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Maybe we need a list of methods of cheese it. Oh,
somebody put a post up on a that was either
on Instagram or Facebook that to knock the door and
cheese it was called something in their town. I was like,
I very much appreciate your use of the words cheese.
It there one of the things he was seen with. Sorry,
(16:39):
a pair of the things that he was seeing with
coat were quite distinctive. That was Edwin Rose's jacket and
his walking cane. And from here on we don't really
know what John Lory does for the For the next
couple of weeks, he must have returned to the mainland
via Rothsa on Butte to collect all of his things.
(17:01):
And then the next date that we hear of John
Laurie is on the thirty first of July, which is
about two weeks later when he abruptly quits his job
in Springburn. However, a few things had happened in the
days between John leaving Aaron and him quitting his job
in Springburn, so let's go through them before we can
say what we can about John's movements. Edwin Rose wasn't
(17:25):
seen again. He was expected home in London on the
eighteenth of July. His brother got a bit worried about
the whereabouts of Edwin as he hadn't returned from his
holidays on the day that he say he would, and
unlike now, when we go into the hills or go
off for a long walk, you let somebody know where
you're going, and you let them know when you get back.
(17:46):
It's like kind of standard operating procedure, isn't it. They
obviously didn't have the options that we have now, and
the first red flag of him being missing would have
been him not to returning on the day that he
said he would. So his brother sorry, So his brother
(18:10):
takes a week trip to the island himself. He obviously
hears on arrival to the island that his brother had
gone up the mountain and hadn't been seen since. In fact,
nobody knew the whereabout some either men who had set
off that day. So two things that I was thinking
about while I was writing this. Why is nobody reported
that they didn't see the other man? And is the
(18:32):
reason for that the fact that the landlady went, or
of the lodgings they were staying in Brodick went on,
all both sets of luggage went, so they must have
both left. What I mean, it's the only reason I
can think that nobody's gone looking for this man in
four days. But then I suppose, why would you if
(18:58):
you assumed that he had left, but then loads of
people had seen John on his own, which I just
when I was thinking this that I couldn't work out
the reasoning for not looking for the man for looking
for Edwin. Either way, his brother is obviously rather concerned,
and they organize a search of the mountain, as this
(19:21):
was his last known whereabouts, the would see if they
could find any evidence of him having been there. And
when I say they organized a search, about two hundred
people came out to look, and they looked a significant
portion of the population of Aaron. So the population of
Aaron in like I looked it up in like two
(19:41):
thousand and whenever, the last census was in like two
thousand and something was about five thousand people. So I
can't imagine in the eighteen nineties, which I didn't look
I should have probably done, the populations would have been
concentrated to the towns and some crafts. It wouldn't have know,
not the adents much bigger than that now anyway, But
(20:03):
it's pockets of population, and I can't imagine it would
have added up to more than a couple of thousand. No,
probably not, I don't know for a fact, But you know,
a decent percentage of the island's population went out looking
for this man. As you know, one way up, one
way down. This time they kind of spread off the
(20:25):
normal path as they started the surrounding area. They concentrated
on Goatfeld and off the main path that we spoke
about earlier, on the kind of way up, way down
type path, they found a rather gruesome discovery. Just off
(20:45):
the main path. They found the body of Edwin Rose,
which was found under a boulder, surrounded by a mini
stone dyke, which is a kind of wall that's built
using the rocks that would have been in the area,
and this had been built to obscure the view. His
face was mangled. That's not my words, that's a description
(21:06):
that was used in the papers from the time. And
he didn't have any of his possessions on him. He
was in an area that, as I say, wasn't an
obvious retreat from the summer. It's not a place that
you would naturally come down to. And I suppose it's
worth saying at this point that Goatfell, like any other
(21:27):
mountain in Scotland, is sadly a dangerous place to be
at times, so that people have fallen on Goatfell and
lost their lives, and he was found in an area.
I hate to use the word scree slope because when
you look at the photos, it's certainly much bigger boulders
than I would picture a scree slope being. But there
(21:49):
was no definitive path the way he was going or
where he was found, Sonny. A few of his belongings
were found in the nearby area, and the initial kind
of summation of what had happened was he'd had a
tragic fall, and Edwin Rose had died in that fall,
landing under a boulder and then building a wall around himself. Yeah,
(22:15):
you know, as you would. The first thing I'd planned
to do when I die is to build a wall.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
But if if you'd fallen, it's only it's only four
or five days since.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
He was last seen alive. Yeah, so the yeah, the sorry.
So yes, the search took place some time around that.
You're right, I should have this information. But let's he
was too home on the eighteenth of July, which is
three days after the event, and then it would have
(22:55):
taken the time for his brother to travel north and
organize a search. So let's go with a reasonable five
or six days between potential fall and finding of body.
Mm hmm. You're right, though, that is a that is
a fact I should have looked up. Thanks cheer. I
(23:15):
was just thinking.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
With injuries that severe, if it was a fall, if
it had been less than a week, unless there had
been severe rain, you'd expect to see evidence of that
fall coming down the corrie of Scree.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
In inverted commas. Yeah, yeah, sort of like a disturbance
to it, or.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Blood stains leading down to the bottom.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So you're talking about on the mountain itself rather than
on the victim. Yeah, So yeah, none of the none
of this was seen any like there was evidence of
a fall. There was also a man lying under a
boulder that's got an overhang and I'll share with you
(24:06):
the picture in a minute. And he had a forty
two stone dry stone dike built around him which would
take a wee while, so you can probably guess. I'm
not of the opinion that he fell down the hill.
The outcome of Smortam that was carried out and Edwin
showed that he had been beaten to death with something
(24:29):
blunt like a rock. Maybe the official verdict of the
coroner was that a single blow to the head would
have left him unconscious, and then several more blows would
have killed him before being dragged to be hidden from
sight under the boulder. And then oh yeah, of course
the mini wall being built as well. You'll not be
(24:52):
surprised at all to hear that the police now wanted
to speak with the last man that he had been
seen with, the last man that was on the mountain
with him, John Laurie, who had at this point quit
his day job and disappeared. So search has set up
to find John Laurie. He'd moved away from Glasgow and
(25:13):
ended up in Liverpool, and even at one point wrote
to the landlady of his lodgings in Glasgow saying that
and I quote some people trying to get me into trouble,
and I think you should give them no information at all,
and I will prove to them how they are mistaken
before long. Wow. And he's also left a fairly lucrative
(25:34):
job I mean for his Yeah, a pattern maker at
the ironworks wouldn't have been lowest of wrung. No it's not.
It's a skilled job. Yes, it's it's still still a
skilled job in industry. He was I don't think we
can go as far to say as he was he
was well off. He was certainly low middle society. Maybe
(25:58):
enough to go on holiday, Yeah that's true, Yeah enough
to go to Aaron and he just he's spugging off
and we know he was in Liverpool because once he's arrested,
which surprise, surprise, will happen reasonably soon, he does say
that he was traveling all around the UK before he
was running out of money basically. So obviously it's taken
(26:22):
a few days for the news to get out that
the body had been found, not just because it was
about five or six days before the body was found itself,
but after that there's obviously the time that it takes
to put the news the press release out and that
body had been found on Goatfell. So there's a good
week or so between then climbing the mounting and it
hitting the press. John Laurie is essentially on the run
(26:45):
at this point and nobody has any idea where he is,
and it carries on that way for six weeks. That's
sixsh weeks he's on the run, and for some reason
something changes. On the twenty eighth of August, he writes
a letter to the Glasgow Herald saying I smile when
I read my arrest is expected hourly. This was postmarked
(27:08):
from Aberdeen. I mean it's a bold statement, you know.
I certainly can't think of many people who wrote to
the papers about their fleeing other than Jack the Ripper,
or supposedly Jack the Ripper, but yeah, Jack the Ripper
or the Riddler from Batman. Yeah, yeah, totally man, and
(27:33):
one of them is more real than the other. And
I'll leave that with you. He's been buggering around the country,
running away from whatever happened on Aaron, and we'll go
into that in a bit, because he does get arrested
(27:54):
in charge with the police and his first response when
he's arrested is quite interesting, literally a stroke of luck
that leads to John Laurie's arrest. On the third of September,
which is now what nearly two months after they've gone up,
eight weeks ische before since they've gone up and got fell,
he was spotted boarding a train in a small town
(28:15):
near Hamilton in Scotland. The police are informed and a
single police officer pursues him as he tries to evade
arrest in a scene not unlike Scooby Doo. All of
the locals come out and help with the chase, and
he is chased into bog wood, where he hides in
a bush clad think, yeah, it properly like write me
(28:40):
a chase scene running through a town into a woods
for a cartoon is exactly what's happened here. And he
hides in this bush where he's spotted by a small
boy and the small boy goes, he's over here or
something more Hamilton than that. Not Hamilton the musical, because
I'm not saying it to you, but Hamilton the place.
(29:01):
Very different things. Yeah, the officer shouted. The officer that
was chasing him shouted to him that he should come
out now, and John replied that he would, other than
the fact that he had just slipped his own throat,
which was indeed true he had. When he was pulled
(29:22):
from his hiding place, he was found in possession of
an open razor, and he had run it across his
own neck, however, not deep enough to kill him. The
police constable abandons him up and arrested him. When he's
charged with the offense of murder, John Laurie replies to
them directly, I robbed the man I did not murder him.
(29:46):
John Lorry was taken to trial in front of Lord
Justice Clerk, and the case essentially revolved around did Edwin
fall or was he killed? Well, I think I know
where I stand on this, But there was a defense
put up against him or for him, sorry, and the
defense was that he felt, quite simply the injuries that
(30:11):
he sustained could and possibly would have been sustained as
the result of a fall. And this was testified in
court by several doctors. However, most importantly, none of these
doctors ever actually examined the body of Edwin Rose. They
were just given the facts and told what do you think,
(30:32):
and they said, yes, the injuries you described could have
resulted as a fall. Well, they could have except for
a few extra things. Edwin Rose, when his body was found,
was missing a few items. As I said, they were
found near where his body was. There was his walking jacket,
(30:52):
like his mac his car. His Google type jacket was
found near the body, as were a couple of his
personal belongings. Nothing of the expensive funnily enough, but what
he was wearing wasn't ripped. What he was wearing was
on what was found nearby weren't ripped, which if you
had sustained in injuries resulting in death enough falling down
(31:16):
a screen slope on a Scotch mountain, your clothes would
have been ripped as well. Yeah, you'd imagine they'd have
been torn during the fall. Absolutely a coton rocks or
whatever you know, or possibly even you know, when somebody
moves you, they might rip, but with them with the
(31:39):
only exception of his shoulder and a part of his hip,
I think that the clothing there were ripped, but the
rest of it certainly wasn't the result of a fall.
But the doctors themselves weren't wrong. All of those injuries
could have been sustained by a fall, However, in this
case I don't believe they were. It took the jury
(31:59):
just forty five minut some deliberation to return with a
guilty verdict and John Laurie was sentenced to death. The
court did say in the court sorry, He did say
that he had not killed him, but he did rob him,
a statement that he would carry for much longer than
you may think. As the sentence was later changed to
life imprisonment. He would serve forty one years in Perth prison.
(32:21):
Dying in nineteen thirty, all of the time protesting his
innocence to murder. A few additional facts before we're go
any further, or I have a few, do you know what?
I've got maybe three things that I've written down like
at the end, as I kind of these are things
I was thinking about whilst writing it. But the basics
(32:44):
of the case are as I've said already, two men
went out a mountain and only one man came down,
and we can only have the words of those people
around him to see what actually happened, And that to
me is the kind of that's the crux of this case.
There's still a mystery to this day technically, because the
man can protested his innocence all the way till his
(33:05):
natural death, well natural death inside prison. And we can't
say for sure that he killed them because there was
only two men on that mountain. No, I fall quite
clearly on one side.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Yeah with you, But I can also see why there
could be.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Reasonable doubt.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yes, and I have actually heard of this case before.
I'm sure I read about it in.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I put that dealt with numerous possible.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Miscarriages of justice, and I think although he was as
you say, there was a guilty verdict. Yeah, the majority
of one, wasn't it for the jury? It wasn't a
unanimous decision. No, it wasn't a unanimous decision because the public.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Were really the public as well at large, and the
newspapers and the press, the kind of representation of normal people,
if you know what I mean, were very, very split
on what happened the way. You know, this was a
a rich Englishman that had come up and had been
attacked by or had fell from or had you know,
(34:33):
there were so many if stands and and butts that
it had left. Yeah, the majority of the people split,
and the jury I didn't I knew it wasn't unanimous.
I didn't think it was just one. But you might
be absolutely right there.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I think I think it was a majority of one,
and I, like you, I'd fall on the he is guilty.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Side one hundred percent. But in a court of law,
it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, and so one of the things I was going
to say to you, just as we have this discussion, actually,
if it's perfectly is there's a few interesting things that
weren't brought up in court that could have been used
as evidence the fact that John Laurie all of his
clothes when he was arrested. He obviously probably had everything
he had on him because he'd been on the run
(35:24):
for so long. None of the blood, there was no
blood on any of his clothing, Like, there was no
evidence of him having been involved in a crime scene.
And there's no evidence. And I had a quick look
because we've talked about cases where they've pawned their clothes
and things like that before, and that's how they get
caught almost is you know, there's slightly soiled stuff being
(35:44):
pawned in. I can't see any evidence of that this
type either. So like there is the argument that there's
no physical evidence on him to prove his and there
was no murder weapon recovered, no, because if it was
just a rock, it was a rock, yeah, and you
would never know. You throw it in a stream, on
a mountain stream and it's clean again, isn't it? Yeah,
(36:08):
I mean there is. I'd be very surprised if you
didn't fall on the same theory as me, because nobody's
building their own fucking stone dyke around their body as
beautiful as the idea that's true.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, But the jury I think in this case he
never denied robbing him. No, he did so, So John
Laurie's story could have been that he fail he died
during the fall. I robbed him and moved his body
(36:43):
to cover that.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
So my next literally my next three lines and I
will read them for baitum to you are can you
prove a push or a fall? Maybe he didn't kill him,
but maybe he did, but somebody hid the body. Yeah,
and you know, and these are just things I've literally
written down at the end, and I find that really interesting.
(37:05):
Can you you can't prove a push? No, you can't
take that takes one man's he has to verbalize that,
or it's it's in its speculation the entire time.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Or you couldn't prove a push back then anyway, in
that case, I don't know if you can't now with.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
It has been done. There was a case not long
ago in Scotland up on the Arthur's seat. Yes, you're right,
and then we've talked about this briefly that I've kind
of filmed bits and pieces with the family that are
involved in that. And yeah, yes you can, yes, sorry,
you can prove a push now in certainly in that
in that certain science, you can. But yeah, in in
(37:51):
the mountains, can you, like in the proper mountains, can
you prove a push? No?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
No, when there's just when there's just two peop well there,
those two people are the only people who are going
to know what really happened. And if one of those dead,
that needs only one person's ever going to know what
really happened exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, I'd like to give you one other fact about
the case that I thought would actually tickle you more
than anything you've maybe you maybe seen if you've read
about this case ever so slightly, you maybe see this.
But I'd like to talk about Edwin Rose's boots. Edwin
Rose's boots weren't on his body when they did the
examination of him. The corner and the police were asked
(38:34):
about this in the courtroom, and they were very reluctant
to disclose the location of his boots. They were asked
by the Lord Chief Justice to basically, we're telling now
where the boots you're in a quarter of law and
they said, all right, we will do. We'll tell you
where they are. They're buried at the high watermark. And
(38:54):
why because of island folklore, it is said that if
a man is killed on Aaron and his boots are
not buried at the high water mark, then his ghost
would roam the hills for eternity. Wow, I didn't know that.
I thought you would. I thought, do you know what
I wrote? You know whatever three thousand words that is
or whatever, and I was like, Ali's gonna like the
(39:16):
last ten of them. Yeah, I really like that. So yes,
that's the thing. Apparently, if you die on the Isle
of Iron, your boots have to be or maybe if
you know, if you were killed on the Island Iron, sorry,
your boots must be buried at the high water mark
and then your ghost can be set free. Quite I
(39:36):
thought you'd enjoy the island folklore. There, I do. I
love island froglore. And then I'll show you this will
not include this in the podcast. But then Poppy made
me right, Poppy Bloppy Floppy dotty Dobby Poppy at the
bottom at the bottom of my notes. So yeah, that's
(40:00):
that is the case of the I'm going with the
Goatfell Murder because I prefer it as a title to
the Aran mystery. No Goatfell Murders wonderful. The name Goatfell
actually comes from the Gallic for Mountain of Wind, the
Mountain of Wind. Yeah, it's not what I would have
thought it would have been. It's also weird meant to
(40:22):
talk about because most of the mountains in Scotland are
ben something or more gallic than Goatfell. I mean, I
presume it is gallic.
Speaker 5 (40:32):
Yeah, it is gallic, but as gallic fell spell f
e l d is Norse for peak or cliff as well.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Very good. It's one that there are apparently still tours
run by local history tour guides on Aaron that will
take you to the boulder where Edwin Rose was found.
The Drysdale Dike is obviously not there because they had
to take that down to take the body out, but
the overhanging boulder, which I will share a picture in fact,
(41:06):
if you've got yeah, I can please send you a
picture right now. In fact, you can probably just google
it and bolder. Yeah, there's people and do you know
it's the sort of thing I would probably take a
wander up to if I was ever one iron again. Yeah,
but that is why you got my my mountain mystery
(41:26):
out of me for a while, And I shall go
on and find something different next time. It's a.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
It's a it is a good one. It's a tough one.
It must have been a hard one for a jury
to try. I think because of the lack of hard evids.
I think probably what really condemned him was his behavior
and his acts following the crime.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
So what you mean, like the writing the letters and
the quicknes's job and going on the run.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, exactly, the going on the run, quitting his job.
They're writing the letters. If he'd gone down that mountain
and instantly said John has fallen.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Yeah, if he'd instantly admitted, if he'd instantly the bolder, yeah,
there you go. Even if he did kill him, let's
just let's go down that route. Even if he did,
if he'd gone down the hill and gone Edwin Rose
has just fallen. I moved him so we would new
(42:30):
old where to find him, then he had never gone
to jail. Yeah, I agree, he'd have got away. Arguably,
Arguably he would never go to jail because, as you say,
there was no there's no physical evidence against him to
say you've done it, other than the erratic behavior that
(42:52):
goes with it, that's the most damning. Yeah. To me,
the most damming is the attempt is to take your
own life. He did say when he was being cross
examined and interviewed by the police that he'd attempted to
take his own life on more than one occasion whilst
on the run. He'd taken poison a couple of times
and been sick, but never never die. Obviously he never
(43:16):
died because they caught him. But you know what I mean,
like he would he'd had failed attempts to poison himself.
He should have spoken to the tea cup murderer. He
could have sorted it out fro him, Yeah, instantly. So yeah,
but is that an admission of guilt or is he
just running away because he's known he's robbed them and
then the guy's been found dead, you know, just putting
(43:38):
that out there, would you run that far? Yeah, true,
that's a very good question. Probably not.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Know, it's a lot of running for a robbery, Yeah,
unless it's a robbery that's ended up in a death
rather than the other way around.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You know, if he's tried to rob him on the
mountain and then he's fallen or slipped during the robbery,
you know it's still you've still caused it, but you
know it's not beating a man's head in with a rock.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah, it's not premedititive murder.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
We are also skipping over the fact that the corner
basically said it couldn't have been a fall. Although the
doctors that said the injuries could sustain could have been
sustained by a fall, the physical evidence of the body
itself didn't lend itself to a fall, you know that,
the lack of ripped clothing and all that kind of stuff. Yeah,
(44:38):
but then John didn't have any blood on him, So yeah,
you have to go both ways, don't you. It's an
interesting one. I'd definitely fall on the guilty side on
this one though, me too, absolutely, Yeah, I don't have
no doubt, but I'm fairly certain he was responsibility responsible
for the death of Edmond Roles for sure. Yeah. Do
(45:02):
you know what what intrigued me about it was that
I'd actually done a weird Google and like Scottish Island mysteries,
and of course the one that comes up all the
time is the Peter Gibbs in Mull and then this
one was like two pages down on the old Google.
I was like, ah, what's that. Turns out friends of
ours have covered this case once before, and I listened
(45:23):
to them today. So Emma gel And from Murder She
Spoke had covered this a while ago as a as
a listener request, and Emma did the research, which it
was a really interesting listen because she's her family go
over to Aaron every year, so she kind of knows
the place way better than me. And it's always nice
to hear one of your friends. So we've I didn't
know they had before I'd written it, so hands up,
(45:46):
they can have. But if you want another version of
the telling, go and listen to Murder She Spoke. They
are very good friends of the podcast. Yeah, they're very good. Yeah,
it's a weird one because I I found, like I said,
I found it just looking up mysteries and Scottish Islands
(46:06):
and there's other one I would think I'm gonna go
on cover, but this one grabbed me because it was
a mountain and actually not a mountain. I've been up,
but I for some reason assumed you had anyway without
even asking you. So yeah, we go. It's a good one.
I kind of want to go back up. Well, now
(46:26):
take some phos if you do, man, let's do it. Yeah,
next time you're up Let's go to Aaron. It's not
that far away. A couple of hours, we can be there. Yeah,
he wants to go to Aaron. Oh, well, let's do it.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Don't want to plan You don't want to climb a mountain.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
There's a beautiful spa on iron lovely. Yes, what is
the question?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Well, did you have any previous do you know that
the other case is on our seat that we won't
talk about too much because it's quite modern.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Really, it wasn't. They didn't provely pushed her.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
What they proved was he was a very nice person
and capable of doing it, didn't they That's right?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, so did this other.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Bloke, So John Urrie any sort of passed.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
It's really interesting because his employer described him as a
decent chap and he certainly didn't seem like there's no
There's certainly nothing in his past that said he was
already a robber or or or a violent man. He
was clearly a bit weird because he went to stalk
(47:36):
his ex girlfriend on an island under the pseudonym not
very good pseudonym. It just changed his surname. But he
certainly I suppose no, no is the answer to that Sarah,
because like there certainly wasn't a criminal record for him. Yeah,
it's very interesting. It just it makes it to me,
(47:58):
It makes it even stranger almost that he had as
no previous on it at all, and he's obviously had
a moment of rage, whether it's been the toothache or
whatever it was, it made him snap on that mountain.
Something's happened. But it baffles my head, which is we know,
(48:18):
do we know if.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
He actually contacted the ex girlfriend or Aaron during his trip?
Speaker 1 (48:23):
No, I don't think his plan was to ever contact
the ex girlfriend. I think his plan was to go
there and spy on her and then he formed this
weird boy band with these the other guys that were like,
let's be pals. Yeah, there's there's a like I say,
there's a lot of weirdness about him, But I don't
(48:44):
know if it's there's nothing criminal about him. Previously that's
led to a murder and a robbery and a running away.
This was possibly why he was attempted to take his
own life at times, because he's panicked at something or
maybe Edwin did fall. Maybe Edwin did fall, but he
(49:07):
was there, Yeah, exactly, And it's one of these things,
we will never know. The last person that knew died
in nineteen thirty. I'm gonna try and keep story. So
I'm just gonna keep you a question. And I'm afraid
that's fine.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
I think big ask it.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
And that is the case of the Goat film mystery Alistair.
I probably leave you more baffled this evening than you started.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yes, Exah, Actually I'm more conflicted about that case than
I was when we started, because, as I said, I
knew about it already, but not in that much detail. Yeah,
and yeah, I more conflicted than before.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
You're welcome. Thanks, It's the best I can do for you.
We'll move back again with another tale, possibly recording in
person next time. I believe you're up again soon next week,
I doubt No, no, no, next week we'll be on
We'll be on the old intepra web. Next week again. Yeah,
well we'll be loving it? Is it? Are you gonna?
(50:19):
Are we just going back to week about now? Even
though you took that big stint in the middle, Yeah
you sure sign with me? Yeah? Yeah, you chose to
do it anyway, we shall, It's true. Leave you with
a thank you, love you bye, thank you love you bye.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Thanka you few, bye you hear yourself, Thanka you bye
(51:03):
never
Hello and welcome to Twisted Britain, the podcast in true
crime written with a sprinkle of the weird in the
cabin Your host Sammy Bob Dale and me Ali Downey.
Good evening, Ali Downey, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I am fantastic. It's a fabulous day down in Bournemouth today.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I guess you're in Bournemouth. I am in the settling
as always. This is our second attempt at recording this evening. Yeah,
new normal, it's becoming the new normal. Me struggling technology
while you sit and watch me from afar. Thanks for that. Yeah,
I love it. How was Bournemouth? And it was a
(01:10):
lovely day today? It's so much sunnier down here. It
was really windy here, really fucking windy. I was for
work out of the airport today. Never mind why I
was at the airport. But see watching the planes come
in when they're like ski wif coming in, it's fucking scary.
(01:30):
It's amazing. I love watching that ire vaporization when they land. Yeah,
and I thought you were going to say, you like,
what have you seen that guy? What's his name? The
aeroplane guy on YouTube that just goes to airports and
films fucking planes coming in at weird angles. Yeah, let's
go with a big plane TV or some shit like that. Anyway,
(01:55):
we move swiftly on to I'm going to tell you
a case this evening. It's been a up with wee
while since we've done that, it.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Has, and this one's been coming for a wee while too.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah. I promised to tell you a couple of weeks ago,
and then something happened, and then last week we had
the pleasure of the Stirling University two Crowme Society joined us,
which was a lovely night. It was great.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It was nice to have a completely captive audience.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, and they were good. They did some questions and
answer and stuff at the end and it was good fun.
There was a bit what would you say about twenty
of the men, Maybe not quite that many, but something
like that.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, it about twenty of the men, but they said
there was a like fifty of them in the club.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That's a big true crime club, yep. And we're going
to get them back in another time hopefully. But I
thought I would tell you a tale this evening, as
you say, one that's been in the post for a while.
I've told you I was going to do it weeks ago,
and true Bob fashion, though I'd written you know, two
thirsty three quarters of it a couple of weeks ago,
and then we had to go back and reread my
(02:55):
absolute fucking nonsense to finish the case this week. But
never mind. We have a tale for you and I
and I shall tell you a tale. Tell me a
tale tonight. I would like to tell you the tale
of two men going up a mountain and one man
coming back down. You love a mountain story, you do?
(03:16):
You know what I do? I love the mountains full
stop and adding some mystery, a possible murder in the mix,
and it's very It's very me for a twisted Britain story.
I feel. The last mountain I covered was Everest. Our
friend oh what was his name now? Names escaped me.
(03:36):
They tried to fly to Everest and climb it, and
yeah it legend, but his name will come to me either,
not at all. This mountain, however, I'm going to talk
about this evening, is ever so slightly closer to home.
It's also very much smaller than Everest. And would tell
(04:00):
you this evening about the death of Edwin Rose on
goat Fell on the Isle of Aaron. I've climbed it,
have you? I was going to ask you. That was
literally my next words I have with my Annie Marguerite.
So it is the highest mountain on Aaron. I thought,
(04:20):
I'll tell you a wee there'll be people listening to this.
I've never been Tarron or or know where it is,
so I thought a little bit about Aaron before we
get started. Good Whiskey, Great Whiskey, Great Distillery Tour as well.
Aaron is the seventh largest Scottish island, lying in the
(04:42):
Firth of Clyde, only about forty five minutes on the
ferry from the mainland. And as I said, I've had
the pleasure going a couple of times, once with my
family and my brother, with my brother when we were
much smaller, once more recently for a stag do where
we partook in some of the very tasty whiskey that
they have on offer. And I'm it's literally about to
go and I know you've been. Have you claimed? Goatfeller
(05:03):
is what I've written down here, but we've covered that already.
Just the ones, yeah, just the ones. So the interesting
thing about the mountains on Iaran is Aaron sometimes referred
to as Scotland and miniature. And it's only during the
research for this case I understood why. I just thought
(05:23):
it was because it was a tiny beee version of Scotland,
which it is, but it's a lot more scientific than that.
The tectonic fault line that runs through Scotland that makes
the highlands and the lowlands runs directly through Iron, so
it means that on the island itself it has a
(05:45):
highland and a lowland almost almost in mimicking of the mainland,
and Goatfeld lies in the mini Highlands. We'll go with
the mini Highlands. And it stands at two thousand and
eight feet, making it a corbett in Scottish terms, which
is a mountain between two thousand and three thousand feet tall,
(06:06):
where mountain over the height of three thousand feet is
a monroe. The hill itself is quite a imposing feature
on the island. In fact, you can see it from
the mainland and you know me, I could quite happily
talk about mountains for probably the entire of a podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well you did during the Everest podcast and I'm about
to Morris Wilson, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yes, the legend that is Morris Wilson. Yeah, as I said,
I could talfinually talk about mountain and then that everything
there's there was almost a bit about the mountain. I'm
going to do the same. Obviously we'll go on to
talk about the crime that happens on the mountain later on.
The last thing I would say about the mountain itself
(06:58):
and its geography, now you'll be able to confirms better
than me, as I've not been up is it's one
of these hills that's got kind of a recognized up
and down path and you don't stray from it, like
it's got a route that you take. Yeah. And that's
and I make a point of that saying that because
sometimes if you go off the path, not in all
(07:20):
Scottish mountains, but if you go off the path sometimes
you can find yourself more prone to a bit of bother,
shall we say, yes? And that is certainly the case
with Goatfell. So the case I'd like to tell you
about tonight is the goat Fell murder, the Aaron mystery,
the Aaron murder. It gets a few different names depending
(07:41):
on where you're looking at the sources. I've gone with
the Goltfell murder just because I like the word goatfell.
And it happened in the summer of eighteen eighty nine. Now,
at this time Aaron was a destination holiday place, not
that it isn't now, but it would have been much
more so. The Victorian age. People would have gone out
on steamers from the Clyde and On via Butte to
(08:02):
Aaron and background. You know that a mini mini crews
I suppose, yeah, Iland Hobbin. Yeah, just as their Victorian
upper class holiday. So let me introduce you to two
men who before this summer did not know each other,
Edwin Rose and John Laurie. John Edwin Rose was a
(08:28):
clerk working in London, a banking clerk that's like a
building's clerk working in London, and he'd planned his summer
holiday to travel up to Ourdrussen where he would get
the ferry to Rothsay on Butte, where he'd based himself
for a holiday between Butte and Aaron, using the paddle
streamer to travel to the bigger island for iron for
walking in the mountains. John Laurie, on the other hand,
(08:49):
was a pattern maker in the iron works in Springburn
in Glasgow. So without taking him down too much, he
was certainly the other end of the social spectrum than
Edwin Rose was. But the two men would pass sorry
and the two men would cross paths on the paddle
steamer heading for Broddick on the Isle of Aaron, which
(09:11):
is the largest town there where they had sought some residents.
Edwin was on his holidays and John was technically too,
but he had another motive for visiting the island. He
was there to get some time away from work. But
he was also there chasing a lost love. An ex
girlfriend of his was to Manny another man and he's
(09:31):
a wee bitty pissed off by it. So he was
a way to see what was going on with that.
Oh yeah, oh but we'll carry on. Actually, Like that's
the reason he's on Aaron is because of the woman,
but very little of the fact that he's on the
(09:52):
island for the woman takes president and the rest of
the case. But it's really pertinent to the story because
that's the reason why he went to Aaron, and that's
the only reason why these two men happened across each
other when they're on the ferry. Whilst they're on that ferry,
they also make the acquaintance of two other men, and
they form a seemingly weird boy band esque true, so
(10:15):
they spend a good few days together boating and walking,
and I would hazard a guess at drinking and making
merry together on the island. Nice John Laurie, however, whilst
traveling introduced himself under a different name. He used the
name John Annandale, and one can only presume he did
that to stop the previous girlfriend hearing him about him
(10:37):
being on the boat over small island life. I would
imagine news travels quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
All right, So it's less cute then if she absolutely
didn't want to see him, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Definitely less cute than the initial or sinuated because he
was there as a jealous X.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Basically, yeah, it's a little bit more stockery than romantic.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh yeah, we're We're definitely on that level for sure.
And weirdly though, I would say, just based on the
reading that I'd done, his stalkeriness, maybe moves away from
her and like attaches himself to Edwin Rose, Like he
seems to have made this really quick bond with somebody
(11:21):
that he's met on a boat and two other guys.
The two other guys do leave slightly earlier, and I'll
get to that in a bit. But he seems just
to almost have gone. I went for this reason, but
actually I met this dude and I'm like hanging on
at him now. Anyway, that's just some side thoughts. Two six,
(11:42):
that's think he'll be out. Sorry, your grand So these
four men on the boat take up a holiday residence
together that I'm fairly certain was accommodation that John ann
and Dale John Laurie had sorted. I'm probably just gonna
go with John Lorry for the most of it, because
(12:03):
he does introduce himself as John and Andale to different people,
but he's tried under the name of John Laurie, and
it's the one that I kind of went, well, that's him. Yeah,
that's his name. Yeah, exactly, Well that does it nearly
didn't fit through the bars. No, either way, it doesn't
(12:27):
matter which what I'm gonna call him. They spend a
few days in early July of eighteen eighty nine, and
they seem to be having a nice time away. I
will say that the two other men who are unnamed
in this story, because I couldn't get a definitive between
the different readings I got as to what their names were,
so I've just gone with the two other men. Yeah,
(12:49):
they become a slightly suspicious of John. It could be
as simple as they had a bit of a bad
feeling about him, because there was definitely something going on.
But I would also have to sug guests that there's
probably a bit of a difference in social standings between
the group of three, the two men and Edwin and
John separately. I think there was probably some social class
(13:10):
going on there. There was also some noise about how
John had had toothache the entire time he was there,
so he was slightly distant, and that either way, the
two unnamed men had a bit of an uneasy feeling
about John, and they had said to Edwin to be
a bit wary of him. Not no specific like I
(13:33):
think he's a threat.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
But just giving off weird vibes.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, exactly. That, Yeah, totally. And the two gentlemen come
to leave the island on the fourteenth of July, which
is a few days before John would certainly, and a
long time before Edwind would. On this time, however, they
warned Edwin to be on his guard. After the two left,
(14:02):
John suggested that the pair of them now that we
were alone could take on the summit of Goat Fell,
as the view from the top would be more than
enough reason to climb the hill. And why do we
climb hills because they're there? Because, as Edward Hillary once said,
because they're there, and the challenge and the view and
all the nonsense that goes with it, but predominantly because
(14:24):
they're there. Apparently that was he didn't mean to say that,
he just said it. So in the early afternoon of
the fifteenth of July, the pair set off to climb
Goat Fell. They were seen on the summit in the
early evening by several other walkers. I think it was
about five. Other people testified that they had seen both
(14:45):
of them on the summit. This, however, was the last
time that anyone would see Edwin Rose alive. Now, no
one to this day knows what happened to Edwin Rose
on the descent of that mountain. We do know that
John Lorry was seen later that evening after descending the
mountain in the Correy Hotel about ten PM by himself,
(15:07):
where he bought some beers and some whiskeys to see
him down the road to his lodgings in Brodock, which
was about six miles away. I mean, a few travel
cans is always a good plan the road is one
for the road, or in this case several for the road.
The only time it's not a good plan is possibly
when you've committed a horrible murder. But we'll get to
(15:30):
that in a bit. The landlady of the lodgings that
the pair been staying in said that by the morning
the following day, both Edwin Rose and John Lorry's bags
had been removed from the place, and that he had
abscondered without paying. John Lorrie was seen carrying bags to
the pier and broughtock to board the early morning ferry
off of the island. Cheez It by Sea. I think
(15:52):
this is the first cheese it by sea we've had.
I think it might be.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
We would cheese it by canal, and we've had cheese it.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
By plane, but I think this might be the cheese
itt by sea the first ever.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, we've had cheese it by motorbike.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Maybe we need a list of methods of cheese it. Oh,
somebody put a post up on a that was either
on Instagram or Facebook that to knock the door and
cheese it was called something in their town. I was like,
I very much appreciate your use of the words cheese.
It there one of the things he was seen with. Sorry,
(16:39):
a pair of the things that he was seeing with
coat were quite distinctive. That was Edwin Rose's jacket and
his walking cane. And from here on we don't really
know what John Lory does for the For the next
couple of weeks, he must have returned to the mainland
via Rothsa on Butte to collect all of his things.
(17:01):
And then the next date that we hear of John
Laurie is on the thirty first of July, which is
about two weeks later when he abruptly quits his job
in Springburn. However, a few things had happened in the
days between John leaving Aaron and him quitting his job
in Springburn, so let's go through them before we can
say what we can about John's movements. Edwin Rose wasn't
(17:25):
seen again. He was expected home in London on the
eighteenth of July. His brother got a bit worried about
the whereabouts of Edwin as he hadn't returned from his
holidays on the day that he say he would, and
unlike now, when we go into the hills or go
off for a long walk, you let somebody know where
you're going, and you let them know when you get back.
(17:46):
It's like kind of standard operating procedure, isn't it. They
obviously didn't have the options that we have now, and
the first red flag of him being missing would have
been him not to returning on the day that he
said he would. So his brother sorry, So his brother
(18:10):
takes a week trip to the island himself. He obviously
hears on arrival to the island that his brother had
gone up the mountain and hadn't been seen since. In fact,
nobody knew the whereabout some either men who had set
off that day. So two things that I was thinking
about while I was writing this. Why is nobody reported
that they didn't see the other man? And is the
(18:32):
reason for that the fact that the landlady went, or
of the lodgings they were staying in Brodick went on,
all both sets of luggage went, so they must have
both left. What I mean, it's the only reason I
can think that nobody's gone looking for this man in
four days. But then I suppose, why would you if
(18:58):
you assumed that he had left, but then loads of
people had seen John on his own, which I just
when I was thinking this that I couldn't work out
the reasoning for not looking for the man for looking
for Edwin. Either way, his brother is obviously rather concerned,
and they organize a search of the mountain, as this
(19:21):
was his last known whereabouts, the would see if they
could find any evidence of him having been there. And
when I say they organized a search, about two hundred
people came out to look, and they looked a significant
portion of the population of Aaron. So the population of
Aaron in like I looked it up in like two
(19:41):
thousand and whenever, the last census was in like two
thousand and something was about five thousand people. So I
can't imagine in the eighteen nineties, which I didn't look
I should have probably done, the populations would have been
concentrated to the towns and some crafts. It wouldn't have know,
not the adents much bigger than that now anyway, But
(20:03):
it's pockets of population, and I can't imagine it would
have added up to more than a couple of thousand. No,
probably not, I don't know for a fact, But you know,
a decent percentage of the island's population went out looking
for this man. As you know, one way up, one
way down. This time they kind of spread off the
(20:25):
normal path as they started the surrounding area. They concentrated
on Goatfeld and off the main path that we spoke
about earlier, on the kind of way up, way down
type path, they found a rather gruesome discovery. Just off
(20:45):
the main path. They found the body of Edwin Rose,
which was found under a boulder, surrounded by a mini
stone dyke, which is a kind of wall that's built
using the rocks that would have been in the area,
and this had been built to obscure the view. His
face was mangled. That's not my words, that's a description
(21:06):
that was used in the papers from the time. And
he didn't have any of his possessions on him. He
was in an area that, as I say, wasn't an
obvious retreat from the summer. It's not a place that
you would naturally come down to. And I suppose it's
worth saying at this point that Goatfell, like any other
(21:27):
mountain in Scotland, is sadly a dangerous place to be
at times, so that people have fallen on Goatfell and
lost their lives, and he was found in an area.
I hate to use the word scree slope because when
you look at the photos, it's certainly much bigger boulders
than I would picture a scree slope being. But there
(21:49):
was no definitive path the way he was going or
where he was found, Sonny. A few of his belongings
were found in the nearby area, and the initial kind
of summation of what had happened was he'd had a
tragic fall, and Edwin Rose had died in that fall,
landing under a boulder and then building a wall around himself. Yeah,
(22:15):
you know, as you would. The first thing I'd planned
to do when I die is to build a wall.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
But if if you'd fallen, it's only it's only four
or five days since.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
He was last seen alive. Yeah, so the yeah, the sorry.
So yes, the search took place some time around that.
You're right, I should have this information. But let's he
was too home on the eighteenth of July, which is
three days after the event, and then it would have
(22:55):
taken the time for his brother to travel north and
organize a search. So let's go with a reasonable five
or six days between potential fall and finding of body.
Mm hmm. You're right, though, that is a that is
a fact I should have looked up. Thanks cheer. I
(23:15):
was just thinking.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
With injuries that severe, if it was a fall, if
it had been less than a week, unless there had
been severe rain, you'd expect to see evidence of that
fall coming down the corrie of Scree.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
In inverted commas. Yeah, yeah, sort of like a disturbance
to it, or.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Blood stains leading down to the bottom.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So you're talking about on the mountain itself rather than
on the victim. Yeah, So yeah, none of the none
of this was seen any like there was evidence of
a fall. There was also a man lying under a
boulder that's got an overhang and I'll share with you
(24:06):
the picture in a minute. And he had a forty
two stone dry stone dike built around him which would
take a wee while, so you can probably guess. I'm
not of the opinion that he fell down the hill.
The outcome of Smortam that was carried out and Edwin
showed that he had been beaten to death with something
(24:29):
blunt like a rock. Maybe the official verdict of the
coroner was that a single blow to the head would
have left him unconscious, and then several more blows would
have killed him before being dragged to be hidden from
sight under the boulder. And then oh yeah, of course
the mini wall being built as well. You'll not be
(24:52):
surprised at all to hear that the police now wanted
to speak with the last man that he had been
seen with, the last man that was on the mountain
with him, John Laurie, who had at this point quit
his day job and disappeared. So search has set up
to find John Laurie. He'd moved away from Glasgow and
(25:13):
ended up in Liverpool, and even at one point wrote
to the landlady of his lodgings in Glasgow saying that
and I quote some people trying to get me into trouble,
and I think you should give them no information at all,
and I will prove to them how they are mistaken
before long. Wow. And he's also left a fairly lucrative
(25:34):
job I mean for his Yeah, a pattern maker at
the ironworks wouldn't have been lowest of wrung. No it's not.
It's a skilled job. Yes, it's it's still still a
skilled job in industry. He was I don't think we
can go as far to say as he was he
was well off. He was certainly low middle society. Maybe
(25:58):
enough to go on holiday, Yeah that's true, Yeah enough
to go to Aaron and he just he's spugging off
and we know he was in Liverpool because once he's arrested,
which surprise, surprise, will happen reasonably soon, he does say
that he was traveling all around the UK before he
was running out of money basically. So obviously it's taken
(26:22):
a few days for the news to get out that
the body had been found, not just because it was
about five or six days before the body was found itself,
but after that there's obviously the time that it takes
to put the news the press release out and that
body had been found on Goatfell. So there's a good
week or so between then climbing the mounting and it
hitting the press. John Laurie is essentially on the run
(26:45):
at this point and nobody has any idea where he is,
and it carries on that way for six weeks. That's
sixsh weeks he's on the run, and for some reason
something changes. On the twenty eighth of August, he writes
a letter to the Glasgow Herald saying I smile when
I read my arrest is expected hourly. This was postmarked
(27:08):
from Aberdeen. I mean it's a bold statement, you know.
I certainly can't think of many people who wrote to
the papers about their fleeing other than Jack the Ripper,
or supposedly Jack the Ripper, but yeah, Jack the Ripper
or the Riddler from Batman. Yeah, yeah, totally man, and
(27:33):
one of them is more real than the other. And
I'll leave that with you. He's been buggering around the country,
running away from whatever happened on Aaron, and we'll go
into that in a bit, because he does get arrested
(27:54):
in charge with the police and his first response when
he's arrested is quite interesting, literally a stroke of luck
that leads to John Laurie's arrest. On the third of September,
which is now what nearly two months after they've gone up,
eight weeks ische before since they've gone up and got fell,
he was spotted boarding a train in a small town
(28:15):
near Hamilton in Scotland. The police are informed and a
single police officer pursues him as he tries to evade
arrest in a scene not unlike Scooby Doo. All of
the locals come out and help with the chase, and
he is chased into bog wood, where he hides in
a bush clad think, yeah, it properly like write me
(28:40):
a chase scene running through a town into a woods
for a cartoon is exactly what's happened here. And he
hides in this bush where he's spotted by a small
boy and the small boy goes, he's over here or
something more Hamilton than that. Not Hamilton the musical, because
I'm not saying it to you, but Hamilton the place.
(29:01):
Very different things. Yeah, the officer shouted. The officer that
was chasing him shouted to him that he should come
out now, and John replied that he would, other than
the fact that he had just slipped his own throat,
which was indeed true he had. When he was pulled
(29:22):
from his hiding place, he was found in possession of
an open razor, and he had run it across his
own neck, however, not deep enough to kill him. The
police constable abandons him up and arrested him. When he's
charged with the offense of murder, John Laurie replies to
them directly, I robbed the man I did not murder him.
(29:46):
John Lorry was taken to trial in front of Lord
Justice Clerk, and the case essentially revolved around did Edwin
fall or was he killed? Well, I think I know
where I stand on this, But there was a defense
put up against him or for him, sorry, and the
defense was that he felt, quite simply the injuries that
(30:11):
he sustained could and possibly would have been sustained as
the result of a fall. And this was testified in
court by several doctors. However, most importantly, none of these
doctors ever actually examined the body of Edwin Rose. They
were just given the facts and told what do you think,
(30:32):
and they said, yes, the injuries you described could have
resulted as a fall. Well, they could have except for
a few extra things. Edwin Rose, when his body was found,
was missing a few items. As I said, they were
found near where his body was. There was his walking jacket,
(30:52):
like his mac his car. His Google type jacket was
found near the body, as were a couple of his
personal belongings. Nothing of the expensive funnily enough, but what
he was wearing wasn't ripped. What he was wearing was
on what was found nearby weren't ripped, which if you
had sustained in injuries resulting in death enough falling down
(31:16):
a screen slope on a Scotch mountain, your clothes would
have been ripped as well. Yeah, you'd imagine they'd have
been torn during the fall. Absolutely a coton rocks or
whatever you know, or possibly even you know, when somebody
moves you, they might rip, but with them with the
(31:39):
only exception of his shoulder and a part of his hip,
I think that the clothing there were ripped, but the
rest of it certainly wasn't the result of a fall.
But the doctors themselves weren't wrong. All of those injuries
could have been sustained by a fall, However, in this
case I don't believe they were. It took the jury
(31:59):
just forty five minut some deliberation to return with a
guilty verdict and John Laurie was sentenced to death. The
court did say in the court sorry, He did say
that he had not killed him, but he did rob him,
a statement that he would carry for much longer than
you may think. As the sentence was later changed to
life imprisonment. He would serve forty one years in Perth prison.
(32:21):
Dying in nineteen thirty, all of the time protesting his
innocence to murder. A few additional facts before we're go
any further, or I have a few, do you know what?
I've got maybe three things that I've written down like
at the end, as I kind of these are things
I was thinking about whilst writing it. But the basics
(32:44):
of the case are as I've said already, two men
went out a mountain and only one man came down,
and we can only have the words of those people
around him to see what actually happened, And that to
me is the kind of that's the crux of this case.
There's still a mystery to this day technically, because the
man can protested his innocence all the way till his
(33:05):
natural death, well natural death inside prison. And we can't
say for sure that he killed them because there was
only two men on that mountain. No, I fall quite
clearly on one side.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Yeah with you, But I can also see why there
could be.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Reasonable doubt.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yes, and I have actually heard of this case before.
I'm sure I read about it in.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I put that dealt with numerous possible.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Miscarriages of justice, and I think although he was as
you say, there was a guilty verdict. Yeah, the majority
of one, wasn't it for the jury? It wasn't a
unanimous decision. No, it wasn't a unanimous decision because the public.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Were really the public as well at large, and the
newspapers and the press, the kind of representation of normal people,
if you know what I mean, were very, very split
on what happened the way. You know, this was a
a rich Englishman that had come up and had been
attacked by or had fell from or had you know,
(34:33):
there were so many if stands and and butts that
it had left. Yeah, the majority of the people split,
and the jury I didn't I knew it wasn't unanimous.
I didn't think it was just one. But you might
be absolutely right there.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I think I think it was a majority of one,
and I, like you, I'd fall on the he is guilty.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Side one hundred percent. But in a court of law,
it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, and so one of the things I was going
to say to you, just as we have this discussion, actually,
if it's perfectly is there's a few interesting things that
weren't brought up in court that could have been used
as evidence the fact that John Laurie all of his
clothes when he was arrested. He obviously probably had everything
he had on him because he'd been on the run
(35:24):
for so long. None of the blood, there was no
blood on any of his clothing, Like, there was no
evidence of him having been involved in a crime scene.
And there's no evidence. And I had a quick look
because we've talked about cases where they've pawned their clothes
and things like that before, and that's how they get
caught almost is you know, there's slightly soiled stuff being
(35:44):
pawned in. I can't see any evidence of that this
type either. So like there is the argument that there's
no physical evidence on him to prove his and there
was no murder weapon recovered, no, because if it was
just a rock, it was a rock, yeah, and you
would never know. You throw it in a stream, on
a mountain stream and it's clean again, isn't it? Yeah,
(36:08):
I mean there is. I'd be very surprised if you
didn't fall on the same theory as me, because nobody's
building their own fucking stone dyke around their body as
beautiful as the idea that's true.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, But the jury I think in this case he
never denied robbing him. No, he did so, So John
Laurie's story could have been that he fail he died
during the fall. I robbed him and moved his body
(36:43):
to cover that.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
So my next literally my next three lines and I
will read them for baitum to you are can you
prove a push or a fall? Maybe he didn't kill him,
but maybe he did, but somebody hid the body. Yeah,
and you know, and these are just things I've literally
written down at the end, and I find that really interesting.
(37:05):
Can you you can't prove a push? No, you can't
take that takes one man's he has to verbalize that,
or it's it's in its speculation the entire time.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Or you couldn't prove a push back then anyway, in
that case, I don't know if you can't now with.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
It has been done. There was a case not long
ago in Scotland up on the Arthur's seat. Yes, you're right,
and then we've talked about this briefly that I've kind
of filmed bits and pieces with the family that are
involved in that. And yeah, yes you can, yes, sorry,
you can prove a push now in certainly in that
in that certain science, you can. But yeah, in in
(37:51):
the mountains, can you, like in the proper mountains, can
you prove a push? No?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
No, when there's just when there's just two peop well there,
those two people are the only people who are going
to know what really happened. And if one of those dead,
that needs only one person's ever going to know what
really happened exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, I'd like to give you one other fact about
the case that I thought would actually tickle you more
than anything you've maybe you maybe seen if you've read
about this case ever so slightly, you maybe see this.
But I'd like to talk about Edwin Rose's boots. Edwin
Rose's boots weren't on his body when they did the
examination of him. The corner and the police were asked
(38:34):
about this in the courtroom, and they were very reluctant
to disclose the location of his boots. They were asked
by the Lord Chief Justice to basically, we're telling now
where the boots you're in a quarter of law and
they said, all right, we will do. We'll tell you
where they are. They're buried at the high watermark. And
(38:54):
why because of island folklore, it is said that if
a man is killed on Aaron and his boots are
not buried at the high water mark, then his ghost
would roam the hills for eternity. Wow, I didn't know that.
I thought you would. I thought, do you know what
I wrote? You know whatever three thousand words that is
or whatever, and I was like, Ali's gonna like the
(39:16):
last ten of them. Yeah, I really like that. So yes,
that's the thing. Apparently, if you die on the Isle
of Iron, your boots have to be or maybe if
you know, if you were killed on the Island Iron, sorry,
your boots must be buried at the high water mark
and then your ghost can be set free. Quite I
(39:36):
thought you'd enjoy the island folklore. There, I do. I
love island froglore. And then I'll show you this will
not include this in the podcast. But then Poppy made
me right, Poppy Bloppy Floppy dotty Dobby Poppy at the
bottom at the bottom of my notes. So yeah, that's
(40:00):
that is the case of the I'm going with the
Goatfell Murder because I prefer it as a title to
the Aran mystery. No Goatfell Murders wonderful. The name Goatfell
actually comes from the Gallic for Mountain of Wind, the
Mountain of Wind. Yeah, it's not what I would have
thought it would have been. It's also weird meant to
(40:22):
talk about because most of the mountains in Scotland are
ben something or more gallic than Goatfell. I mean, I
presume it is gallic.
Speaker 5 (40:32):
Yeah, it is gallic, but as gallic fell spell f
e l d is Norse for peak or cliff as well.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Very good. It's one that there are apparently still tours
run by local history tour guides on Aaron that will
take you to the boulder where Edwin Rose was found.
The Drysdale Dike is obviously not there because they had
to take that down to take the body out, but
the overhanging boulder, which I will share a picture in fact,
(41:06):
if you've got yeah, I can please send you a
picture right now. In fact, you can probably just google
it and bolder. Yeah, there's people and do you know
it's the sort of thing I would probably take a
wander up to if I was ever one iron again. Yeah,
but that is why you got my my mountain mystery
(41:26):
out of me for a while, And I shall go
on and find something different next time. It's a.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
It's a it is a good one. It's a tough one.
It must have been a hard one for a jury
to try. I think because of the lack of hard evids.
I think probably what really condemned him was his behavior
and his acts following the crime.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
So what you mean, like the writing the letters and
the quicknes's job and going on the run.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, exactly, the going on the run, quitting his job.
They're writing the letters. If he'd gone down that mountain
and instantly said John has fallen.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Yeah, if he'd instantly admitted, if he'd instantly the bolder, yeah,
there you go. Even if he did kill him, let's
just let's go down that route. Even if he did,
if he'd gone down the hill and gone Edwin Rose
has just fallen. I moved him so we would new
(42:30):
old where to find him, then he had never gone
to jail. Yeah, I agree, he'd have got away. Arguably,
Arguably he would never go to jail because, as you say,
there was no there's no physical evidence against him to
say you've done it, other than the erratic behavior that
(42:52):
goes with it, that's the most damning. Yeah. To me,
the most damming is the attempt is to take your
own life. He did say when he was being cross
examined and interviewed by the police that he'd attempted to
take his own life on more than one occasion whilst
on the run. He'd taken poison a couple of times
and been sick, but never never die. Obviously he never
(43:16):
died because they caught him. But you know what I mean,
like he would he'd had failed attempts to poison himself.
He should have spoken to the tea cup murderer. He
could have sorted it out fro him, Yeah, instantly. So yeah,
but is that an admission of guilt or is he
just running away because he's known he's robbed them and
then the guy's been found dead, you know, just putting
(43:38):
that out there, would you run that far? Yeah, true,
that's a very good question. Probably not.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Know, it's a lot of running for a robbery, Yeah,
unless it's a robbery that's ended up in a death
rather than the other way around.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You know, if he's tried to rob him on the
mountain and then he's fallen or slipped during the robbery,
you know it's still you've still caused it, but you
know it's not beating a man's head in with a rock.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah, it's not premedititive murder.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
We are also skipping over the fact that the corner
basically said it couldn't have been a fall. Although the
doctors that said the injuries could sustain could have been
sustained by a fall, the physical evidence of the body
itself didn't lend itself to a fall, you know that,
the lack of ripped clothing and all that kind of stuff. Yeah,
(44:38):
but then John didn't have any blood on him, So yeah,
you have to go both ways, don't you. It's an
interesting one. I'd definitely fall on the guilty side on
this one though, me too, absolutely, Yeah, I don't have
no doubt, but I'm fairly certain he was responsibility responsible
for the death of Edmond Roles for sure. Yeah. Do
(45:02):
you know what what intrigued me about it was that
I'd actually done a weird Google and like Scottish Island mysteries,
and of course the one that comes up all the
time is the Peter Gibbs in Mull and then this
one was like two pages down on the old Google.
I was like, ah, what's that. Turns out friends of
ours have covered this case once before, and I listened
(45:23):
to them today. So Emma gel And from Murder She
Spoke had covered this a while ago as a as
a listener request, and Emma did the research, which it
was a really interesting listen because she's her family go
over to Aaron every year, so she kind of knows
the place way better than me. And it's always nice
to hear one of your friends. So we've I didn't
know they had before I'd written it, so hands up,
(45:46):
they can have. But if you want another version of
the telling, go and listen to Murder She Spoke. They
are very good friends of the podcast. Yeah, they're very good. Yeah,
it's a weird one because I I found, like I said,
I found it just looking up mysteries and Scottish Islands
(46:06):
and there's other one I would think I'm gonna go
on cover, but this one grabbed me because it was
a mountain and actually not a mountain. I've been up,
but I for some reason assumed you had anyway without
even asking you. So yeah, we go. It's a good one.
I kind of want to go back up. Well, now
(46:26):
take some phos if you do, man, let's do it. Yeah,
next time you're up Let's go to Aaron. It's not
that far away. A couple of hours, we can be there. Yeah,
he wants to go to Aaron. Oh, well, let's do it.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Don't want to plan You don't want to climb a mountain.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
There's a beautiful spa on iron lovely. Yes, what is
the question?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Well, did you have any previous do you know that
the other case is on our seat that we won't
talk about too much because it's quite modern.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Really, it wasn't. They didn't provely pushed her.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
What they proved was he was a very nice person
and capable of doing it, didn't they That's right?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, so did this other.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Bloke, So John Urrie any sort of passed.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
It's really interesting because his employer described him as a
decent chap and he certainly didn't seem like there's no
There's certainly nothing in his past that said he was
already a robber or or or a violent man. He
was clearly a bit weird because he went to stalk
(47:36):
his ex girlfriend on an island under the pseudonym not
very good pseudonym. It just changed his surname. But he
certainly I suppose no, no is the answer to that Sarah,
because like there certainly wasn't a criminal record for him. Yeah,
it's very interesting. It just it makes it to me,
(47:58):
It makes it even stranger almost that he had as
no previous on it at all, and he's obviously had
a moment of rage, whether it's been the toothache or
whatever it was, it made him snap on that mountain.
Something's happened. But it baffles my head, which is we know,
(48:18):
do we know if.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
He actually contacted the ex girlfriend or Aaron during his trip?
Speaker 1 (48:23):
No, I don't think his plan was to ever contact
the ex girlfriend. I think his plan was to go
there and spy on her and then he formed this
weird boy band with these the other guys that were like,
let's be pals. Yeah, there's there's a like I say,
there's a lot of weirdness about him, But I don't
(48:44):
know if it's there's nothing criminal about him. Previously that's
led to a murder and a robbery and a running away.
This was possibly why he was attempted to take his
own life at times, because he's panicked at something or
maybe Edwin did fall. Maybe Edwin did fall, but he
(49:07):
was there, Yeah, exactly, And it's one of these things,
we will never know. The last person that knew died
in nineteen thirty. I'm gonna try and keep story. So
I'm just gonna keep you a question. And I'm afraid
that's fine.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
I think big ask it.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
And that is the case of the Goat film mystery Alistair.
I probably leave you more baffled this evening than you started.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yes, Exah, Actually I'm more conflicted about that case than
I was when we started, because, as I said, I
knew about it already, but not in that much detail. Yeah,
and yeah, I more conflicted than before.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
You're welcome. Thanks, It's the best I can do for you.
We'll move back again with another tale, possibly recording in
person next time. I believe you're up again soon next week,
I doubt No, no, no, next week we'll be on
We'll be on the old intepra web. Next week again. Yeah,
well we'll be loving it? Is it? Are you gonna?
(50:19):
Are we just going back to week about now? Even
though you took that big stint in the middle, Yeah
you sure sign with me? Yeah? Yeah, you chose to
do it anyway, we shall, It's true. Leave you with
a thank you, love you bye, thank you love you bye.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Thanka you few, bye you hear yourself, Thanka you bye
(51:03):
never
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