Episode 168

DON’T TALK TO COPS, MMKAY?? Ian and Matt analyze one of the worst interrogations ever, and falsely confess to what they would probably do if they were in the hot seat.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Welcome to Sword and Scale Rewind withyour hosts Matt Fondelier and Ian bag And

(00:40):
we're back with another episode of Swordand Scale Rewind. This is episode one
hundred and sixty eight. My nameis Matt Fondelier, one of the writers
and producers for the Sword and ScaleUniverse, but above all else, just
a huge fan of the show.That's why I'm here to talk to you
guys about my love of Sword andScale. But I'm not doing it a
love own. That's right. I'mnot reacting to my own sentences. There's

(01:03):
someone else in the room with me. Hello, Match, it's nice to
see you. Thanks for having meto your podcast. Real great to have
you back here in the booth afterso many games out. It's ten past
seven. That's right, the twoof us are breaking down every episode of
the craziest true crimes show ever produced. I don't know how it happened.

(01:26):
I was just I was just walkingaround normal one day and then you called
me up, and now everything's scary. Everything is scary now, that's right,
that is very true. I'm sorryyou brought so much fear into your
life. You didn't pitch it likethat, would you like to come in
and I'll not be able to openyour door with out crying. I got
a deal for you. Come intothe studio once a week and you'll never

(01:48):
sleep again. What do you thinkare having a hard time getting to sleep,
Well, let's make it even tougher. Yeah, now, but you
will look at your ring doorbell constantly, that's what I find. Yeah,
well, we try to Uh,I'm not gonna say we try to make
people feel better about the murders,but we try to react to it and
just be real about it. Youknow what, I don't know. I

(02:10):
think what a lot of times withthese shows, these episodes, I think,
yeah, yeah, I am rightabout what I think. And yeah,
it are the people. They arethe people that you do think it
is. The worst monsters are real. The worst monsters are real. But
the worst monsters aren't really hidden behinda veil of innocence. Yeah, most

(02:35):
of them are out there. Buton this one things get a little bit
twisted. The angel turns into thedevil. Yeah, yeah, I didn't
like this one at all. Well, you're not alone. A lot of
fans didn't like this one. Age. It's it's when he says there's two
different types of cops. Right off, the topic goes there's the police officer

(02:59):
of the sea HP that we've alldealt with, and then there's the detective.
Yeah, it's true. I wonderif detectives should be something completely different
than in the police m Like,if it should be a completely separate unit.
I see, like not yeah,well yeah, okay, you know
it's not no longer Long Beach police, right it's Long Beach or I don't

(03:23):
know, it's yeah, it's somethingdifferent that way, because they after you
hear it, you kind of go, well, maybe the police need to
be police, but not by police, yeah, because right now they're police
by themselves. Basically. I seewhat you're saying, because it does seem
like the trajectory of becoming a detectivemeans that you start out with the like

(03:46):
basic training of a police officer.You might be like a you know,
have a beat where you just kindof work the streets for a little bit
and you have to kind of proveyourself, and then as you make your
way up the ranks, then youcan be trans for to become like a
detective or something like that. AndI think what you're saying is maybe the
path to becoming a detective should besomething totally separate from becoming a police officer.

(04:09):
Yeah, yeah, I could kindof see that the detective being a
detective, especially after listening to likean episode like this, Being a detective
is like being a poker player.I hadn't really thought about before, But
you are encouraged to bluff and touse to lie certain types of mental strategy
to like overcome the opponent that you'replaying against, as opposed to like a

(04:32):
police officer, whose job should bemore like to like hold somebody's hand through
a scary s Yeah, yeah,I can see that. But you know,
they guess, I guess the wholething is all comes down to being
trained in the law. I guessmaybe you could be on the path to
becoming a lawyer and then maybe becomea detective because you're learning about the ins

(04:55):
and outs of the laws and whatare like case precedents. Well, I
don't know, it's interesting, youknow, the college courses to become a
policeman, maybe they're different to bea detective. You know, maybe,
But I also think it's something wemight have to change the laws a little
bit, like you shouldn't, youknow, it's it's it's sad that in

(05:17):
this this case, you go,well, why were they so why were
they so determined to get this kid? Yeah? Like that's what didn't make
sense to me. That's where therub was to me. And then I'm
like, well, what if it'ssomebody that's annoyed with me? So at
some point you know what I mean, and they just keep harping on it

(05:40):
until because I'm just like, well, why aren't you looking at other places?
Yeah? Well, what was reallymaddening. And of course we're going
to get into all the different detailsof this episode, but there was another
kid who seemed like a way moresuspicious suspect or whatever, and they're like,
now, we're not going to talkto him because he's a ward of

(06:01):
the state and that means he hasa lawyer, and so therefore we are
not even going to try. Likethat was pretty despicable to me. I
couldn't tell if they're just being douchesor they were lazy, or they're just
incompetent. I imagine it's the incompetency. I what struck me just now when
you said it is like again goingback to police officer versus detective police officers

(06:25):
have like, let's say, aquota of speeding tickets that they have to
give out and so people, whichis weird. It's really weird. But
if you live in Los Angeles,you kind of know the end of the
month, you've got to be extracareful because all those officers are all trying
to make their quotas. And sojust now, when you were like,
why would they like why are theyjust trying to break this kid? In

(06:46):
my mind, I was like,and I can't possibly be true, but
I'm like, maybe they have quotas, like they have to arrest a certain
amount of people. Like it seemsridiculous, but you know, it just
didn't. It's before the guy,you know, the guy that got killed.
It was weird that they really reallywanted a suspect for that. I'm

(07:10):
like, really, the guy thatjust got a prison, you really absolutely
need a suspect for him. Yeah, like he's got okay, the one
who's like attempted suicide before, andyeah I did in the area where he's
tried to commit suicide before. Maybethat's what happened. It's just it.
I don't know. I was butbut then it's a smaller town, so
you go, which was something thatreally wasn't pushed. How how how bad

(07:36):
were these police? Like were theyyou know? Or were they? Were
they andy? And and you knowdon nuts were they where they you know?
Or or were they were they corrupt? Or were they just they because
afterwards you must think they would hadto go back and look at a ton
of cases. Is that these guyshad done right? Yeah? I would

(07:59):
think so, and just like reexamine all that that's just such a huge
headache like which but also come comeback to the quota thing. Well,
if you're if you're fudging your work, what's the point of reaching the quota?
So yeah, and I think alot. I'm yeah, you're absolutely
right. If you're just going tofudge the number anyway, what's the difference.
But we just lets like the worldthat we live in. It's like

(08:22):
we live in this like corporate thingwhere every month has to be better than
the previous month. And I've alwaysthought for years like that system. Yeah,
like a certain point it's like,Okay, we have to sell two
more units in last month, butwe're selling millions more than we were six
months ago, Like what are wetalking about? Yeah, it's exhausting.
It just never ends. You shouldyou should uh uh not not not be

(08:48):
happy, you can not be notsatisfied, but and and want more without
being greedy, you know. AndI feel like the greed sometimes is just
and this is completely different. We'regoing on f on a different thing like
that. I don't think there shouldbe a quota to the police department.
No, And I think even thestop sign thing and and those those guys

(09:11):
having a quota is bullshit. It'stotally it's it's just like that's no.
No. I don't know if it'slike this in other places, but in
Southern California, when I've done nothingwrong, I my blood will chill if
I see an officer in the rearviewmirror, because you just don't know if
they're gonna pull you over for somewell I would hope that would get me

(09:35):
out of it somehow. But butI am talking like that. It was
a good yeah, But I mean, you'll just I'll be going the speed
limit and then I'll see a copand I'll just go, oh god,
oh no, was I was?I not going to speed limit, Like
they haven't even put the lights onyet. But it's just so common out
here to get pulled over for anynumber of things, and yeah, it's

(09:56):
just all that's all the quotas andstuff. I'm just like, don't you
have crime to take care of?I remember one day I was riding my
bike in Belmont Shore where we live, and I was going up the wrong
way of one way one a waystreet on a bike on a bike,
and the cop pulled me over.Was he on a bike? No?

(10:16):
Great, but he pulled me overand he's like, what are you doing?
Ride my bike? Going to thegym? He goes, you're going
the wrong way, and I go, yeah, I'm a bad man.
Wow, that's good, and Iwas. I knew I was annoyed because
two blocks away there's a jack ina box where they sell heroin. Yeah

(10:37):
exactly, and you're bugging me ridingthe wrong way, like that's those are
the things that get me going.I was like, Okay, I know
they're selling heroin. They call that. You know they're selling heroin, And
why are you bugging me for ridingmy bike there? You know? Yeah,
I prefer I prefer being able tosee the traffic come at me when

(10:58):
I'm riding my bike. Yeah exactly. So also we're talking about like a
wide street, a wide city street. Here, we're talking about like a
neighborhood street too. I'm not ridiculousby the way that that jack in the
box where they sell the cocaine orthe hero when do they call it crack
in the box. That's a goodname, the crack in the back,

(11:18):
I should say. Also, it'sthe sleepiest little it's the sleepiest little jacking
about it. Yeah. By theway, uh Fenton al the worst business
model ever, right, yeah,kill kill anyone who drives it. Yea,
it doesn't make sense you want tosell it more than once. That's
why they cut it with baby powderbefore, because people would you get more
out of it? Yeah, anyway, just started bringing up business model.

(11:41):
No, that's good, that's good. I did want to say for our
one fan out there who explained tome that he never listens to the Sword
and Scale. He just listens toart show and he might be wondering,
why don't people like this episode ofSword and Scale. And I want to
explain to that one listener, youshould play in the beginning. I could,
I should go editing that whole openingclip. Don't try to cops,

(12:05):
that's right. This is the Don'tTalk to Cops episode, and the narrator
of our beloved show, Mike Budet, explains that you should never talk to
cops. If you were guilty ofa crime, don't talk to cops.
If you're innocent of a crime,don't talk to cops. Make sure you
have a lawyer, because a cop, especially a detective, they're not interested

(12:26):
in your best interests. They're interestedin cracking their case. And so this
is a story of somebody who talkedto cops and they were innocent, And
this entire episode is you want topunch the wall because these detectives are just
really taking advantage of this kid who'swailing and crying and clearly had nothing to

(12:48):
do with this crime. And itnever stops. But what was making people
so upset was Mike saying don't talkto cops. And people, I think
this episode was first released, itwas during the sort of like Black Lives
Matter, lots of riots and thisidea of defunding the police. All these

(13:13):
social issues were kind of happening whilethis episode came out, and so I
think people took great umbrage with thefact that you're saying, don't talk to
police officers, like, we're tryingto restore some balance between policing and our
community, and if you're telling peoplenot to talk to those police officers,
you're just causing further pain to thosecommunities. It's funny how he stirs up

(13:37):
both of the left and the right. Yeah, he just like, hey,
what's that little tiggle to the bus? No, No, we're a
little tiggle to the bus. Well. I mean I would argue that I
kind of will get upset when theyhear the truth. They do, but
he also doesn't sugarcoat the truth.Yeah, and sometimes he uses a way

(14:00):
that that is good for the show, right, but it's not. You
know, I kind of I kindof think from when I heard him say
it, I was like, oh, I should know my rights. Yeah
exactly. I think that was sortof the root of what he's talking he
was talking about. Yeah, butthe way he says it, he says,

(14:22):
don't tie to the cops is deadand people are like, well,
you gotta talk to the instead ofhim saying, hey, take a Civics
class. You a fucking doorbell?Yeah, yeah, which is which I
I didn't. I didn't know becauseI'm not from here. I didn't take
a civics class, so I didn'tknow. I am from here and I
did not take a civics class.It's not taught. That's the whole idea.

(14:43):
Or a civic class gone unless youare like specializing in it, or
you happen to go to like areally nice high school or something. But
yeah, they don't. I took, like everybody should take a civic class.
Took like government classes in high school, kind of learned about the history
of the government and how that's histories. Yeah, but I never learned the
ins and outs of your rights asa citizen like they just. And I

(15:05):
went to a pretty good high schooltoo, but they did not teach anything
like that. Maybe just touch unslgolf bows on a good damn golf course.
Callback callback go a different episode.Okay, would you have known that
before this episode? No, Andin fact, I have a deep internal
struggle with it. Still I understandlogically what Mike is trying to say.

(15:31):
Yes, having said that, ifI came home to find a murdered loved
one that I know I had nothingto do with, I would feel really
weird, saying I gotta call mylawyer. We've talked about this another episode
we've talked about just a few weeksago. You would say it different.

(15:52):
You would say I've got to calla lawyer. Yeah, you would not
say my lawyer. That's true.My lawyer is on speed dial because I
deal with as all the time.Like, that's that's different. Let me
call my dad. Yeah yeah,But I like, and this is all
part of the opening of this episode, the idea of like pleaing the fifth
that is meant to protect the innocent, but in this world that we live

(16:15):
in, the only people who pleadthe fifth are like, guilty, shit
better, you don't want to sayit. And so along those same lines
again, I understand intellectually that Ishould not be sitting to an interrogator and
like telling them my story without havingsomebody next to me who knows it better.
But it again, it feels weirdto me. I would be like,

(16:37):
why do I need a lawyer forI can totally tell you that I
was doing a podcast with Ian Bagwhy I bring you know, I'm totally
with you. But after this,yeah, I'm like, Okay, I
guess I have to. Yeah,you just it's support used to should but
it just makes you seem guilty.That's what's so weird about It makes you
seem guilty even though what you're sayingis no, listen, I'm only innocent.

(17:00):
I don't want anything to be confusedabout it, and thus I'm getting
an attorney. But it just totallysounds like you're guilty. It's a weird
system that way. So this episodereminded me of a neighbor we used to
have who we learned we knew,we knew his wife had died. We
learned that he spent a year injail while they thought he had done it.

(17:25):
So when I heard this, Ikind of because I'm to come on
our podcast. Yeah, well Ithink he did it, but it's one
of those things to come. Thismight have to we might we might have
to. But I don't know wherehe is anymore, because I'm pretty sure
he was bolted Jane, where he'sgoing he ran. But but when I

(17:47):
heard this, I was like,I wonder if that's how he got like
how he got trapped. Yeah,yeah, whether he he screwed up and
said something and that little bit morethan he should have, and just that
little nugget was like, well,you might have done something, even though
he didn't. Yeah, it's thisepisode really messes me up. It was

(18:07):
I was not happy about this episode. I was not happy. This is
not happy. Go lucky when whenI feel like this could affect me,
even though the other ones could affectme, but the other ones seem really
distant. But with that that hadhappened to the neighbor and just to hear
something that I didn't have the knowledgeto do, Yeah, if that had

(18:30):
happened to me. So do youthink now? If I mean again,
play play play? Should this neverhappen to you? But if something like
the scenario, would you do thisthing? Now? Where you just go?
I'm not going to talk to youuntil I have an attorney present.
I think I should have a lawyerwith Yeah, yeah, if you need,
if you need to. If I'mnot coming in as a witness,

(18:52):
I'm coming in as as a personof interest, I'm going to need somebody
with Yeah. Even though I knowI didn't do it. I I've heard
Mike Budet Yeah, and I needto. Yeah. You know what's funny
too, is I'm just realizing oneof the episodes that I worked on that
is on plus for that one,um, there was actually hold on now

(19:18):
i'm thinking about it, the episodemight have been one of the main ones
that might have been un negative.Yeah, it's like one of the it's
it's way down the line. Butthis was a story about a girl who
murdered her mom and stepdad, andwhen she got into the interrogation room,
she was very like pop culturally minded, and so they sat her down and

(19:40):
she was like, Um, I'vejust seen it in a lot of TV
shows that that I should have alawyer president. So I just think I
just think you'd be best if Ihad a lawyer president. And they you
can just hear them going, sure, okay, fine, fine, fine,
But then they continued to question herfor ten hours, but she was
just like talking about like her interests. But you can just hear them trying

(20:06):
still trying to talk to her.They're not really like directly questioning her,
but maybe you get a little nuggetnugget of info because anything you say in
that chair is going to come back. How do they get away with that?
Though, even though she's lawyered up, because they're like they weren't asking
her necessarily about the case. Theywould kind of ask her about like they
like, for example, they gaveher a pad of paper because she liked

(20:27):
to draw. And so this girlstarts like drawing her like anime characters,
and they would say like, oh, tell us about that. What is
that you're drawing? And then shestarts describing the anime and you're like,
oh, she's talking about her relationshipwith her mom, Like you could just
hear that that's what she's saying.She doesn't know it because it's just she's
just drawing, but they're doing littlethings like that. Anyway, I popped
into my mind because I'm realizing,even if you say I would like an

(20:49):
attorney present, You're not just goingto be sitting there quietly, I don't
think unless you are really just clammedup and just like nope, say a
word, Like everyone still talk toyou. Have you ever you've watched the
first forty eight before? Yeah,yeah, makes sense now that when you
see some of those those uh peoplethat have been charged with murder and stuff,
and when they call, they'll justlie down on the floor. Yeah.

(21:11):
Now, yeah, now you knowwhy, because I just not gonna
I'm not answering any I'm not gonnaI'm not gonna entertain even a fraction of
a second. Right, Yeah,you mentioned earlier that civics classes and the
fact that they're not taught in school. Here's my thought. You tell me
what you think. Okay, thisis my idea. We're not doing a
civics class. We're doing a covertoperation for all graduating seniors individually. Each

(21:37):
member of the graduating class will befake arrested. Right, you'll just be
at the mall with your friends.I'd excuse me, mister bag. You
need to come with us, andyou will then get a first hand training
experience for what it's like to bearrested, what's like to be accused of
a crime you didn't commit. Okay, go through an interrogation, and then

(21:57):
at the end, it's like thatmovie The Game with Michael Dutt and say
that it was all a big joke. But now you've learned. What do
you think I was gonna say?I was gonna say this sounds like the
Game, That's what I was gonnasay. And we know that went wrong.
Well, so so hey, everybodychairs at the end, except for
those three people that died. Yeah, all right, I do think think

(22:23):
I do think those kind of thosethose uh what do they called first person
games are good for learning. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Maybe
it's maybe it's a video game insteadof resting them. Yeah, well they
have that game too. It's calledGrand Theft Auto. Actually, no,
hold on. This is reminding meof another thing. There is a video
game I played at once. It'scalled La Noir. It's kind of like

(22:47):
a Grand Theft Auto game, buttakes place in the nineteen forties, and
you are a police detective and partof the game is interrogations, and you
actually interrogate the characters and then whenthey'll like say, aligned you, you
have to like push a or bwhether or not you believe what they're saying,
and if you want to like grillthem a little bit harder. I
was terrible at this game because,probably because the graphics were terrible. It's

(23:11):
hard to read human emotions. Butthey get into it in this in this
episode as well, with the traditionalsigns of when somebody's lying and how that
doesn't really fucking mean anything, it'sbullshit. I feel like I learned a
lot listening to this episode. It'sfunny. My wife was this is another
one what we listened in the cartogether and when it came up about the

(23:34):
lying things. She's like, bullshit, when you lie, you look out
the left, and I'm like oneof my lynes. She goes, I
know when you're lying immediately, SoI'm just like, well, she's calling
bullshit on this guy. I don'tknow. I don't know how, but
I don't think. I don't know. I guess they say you look up
when you're thinking or something like that. That's why they can tell you're lying.

(23:56):
This guy sounds like he's in Thisprofessor seems to know what he's talking
about, and he's calling bullshit onit. Yes, so well, the
really the case and it's been thirtyminutes of the show we still haven't even
mentioned like the actual story of it. It's because fucking Mike's send chills up
everybody's spine as soon as you heardit. They're gonna arrest you for something

(24:18):
you didn't do. Get ready,welcome to the Gulagi sons of bitches,
No chance of parol. You're done. But this guy, William Hurt,
not the actor. I was disappointed. That was disappointing to hear. He
is an eighteen year old who isliving with his mom, his two sisters,

(24:38):
and then like a foster brother who'sincredibly suspicious but paying no attention because
apparently it's a big red herring thathas nothing to do with the story,
and the mom has a like afoster brother who is the man who would
become the victim in this story.Now, he was apparently at the family

(25:00):
home playing chess with this kid,William, and then he left, William
went to bed, and then theguy who left was never seen again.
Well, I should take that back. He's never seen alive alive. They
found him exactly where in the riverwhere he had tried to kill himself a
couple of times. Yeah, which, and then his injuries were like a

(25:25):
broken neckbone and a fractured rib.So the neckbone was in a weird place
like where your tongue meets the backof your throat, So it's kind of
a I'm guessing it was quite thefall. That would be, yeah,
exactly to me. That should alljust be indicative of somebody took a nasty
fall and they like broke their neck, like that's what I'm assuming in a

(25:48):
rib when they fell. Not hewas beaten to death by a group of
kids. They thought. They keptsaying that they everybody beat him to death.
But he didn't have he only hadthe two injuries. Yeah, so
what is the kind of bulk ofthis episode is the interrogation of this kid,
William, who for two hours istelling the police officers the truth.

(26:11):
He's telling them exactly what happened andthat he went to bed and they are
just not buying it. And they'renot It's not that they're not buying it,
they're just even though they know theyknow things are wrong that he's telling
them, they're just they're just theydon't care. They're dog on bone like
they're just they're ripping it apart.They don't give a shit. Yeah,

(26:34):
because they're suddenly suddenly they're the perpetrators. Well, I want to play a
number of clips because that's what Ilike to do on this ship. He
likes plain clips. This first one, the board clip leaving his first one
is I think it happens pretty earlyon in the episode, but it just
gives you, I think, apretty good glimpse into the minds of these

(26:57):
detectives where they're just already on likea denial roll. Like it doesn't weird.
Like I said before, I justdon't get why they why they just
think they're being lied to. Yeah, there's just like, Oh, that
kid that works at the ice creamshops definitely guilty of murder. Yeah,

(27:17):
he wouldn't get me bubbledum him thatone day, he's gonna fucking suffer.
Now, granted, the corpse hadhis eyeball scooped out with an ice cream
scooper. Okay, maybe we're ontosomething here. We found on the side
of there were two cones filled withice with eyeballs, Yeah, one with
sugar. One was skinking. Allright, So here's this clip of these
cops already down this kid's throughout.This kid's trying to is trying to tell

(27:42):
them about something that happened a whileago. I guess it's been a month
or so that's passed, and thecops are nitpicking everything that this kid's saying.
So in this clip, he likeforgot to mention that his mom gave
them coffee or something before she wentto bed. That's sort of the foundation
of this number One. Would yourmom never witnesses she told me about it?

(28:07):
You sure she wasn't there when thecontainer coffee came out? Well,
she gave her collee toomeber. Okay, remember I told you I wanted specific
details. Okay, that's something youleft out. I want you leave anything
else out. Yeah, I'm goingto tell you how it happened, and
then you're going to agree. Yeah. That's what this entire conversation becomes,
is just like no, you're gonnasmile and nod of what we say.

(28:30):
And you. I mean, forme, I put myself in the mind
of William and he's he's trying sohard to like help the police with what
they're trying to do, and justnot seeing that they're really closing in on
him, right, you know sowhich But the thing that bothers me again
is is why why they want towhy they want to do this? Like

(28:53):
what if they're not good, they'renot good at their job. If you're
putting the wrong person in jail,you're not good your job, yeah,
or you're putting the wrong person injail on purpose. Like there's there's only
two two things Like that's you're eitherbad or you're working bad. Now,
like, well, I think thisparticular talking man, I shouldn't be a

(29:18):
detective. I confuse them into theground with my worth. You madre you
man, you man, you're madman, man man Uh, these guys
are doing something that is a particularkind of I don't want to call it
evil, but a certain kind ofwrongdoing, which is that they think that
they are doing the right thing,but they're not. They're not, but

(29:41):
they are justified in the things thatthey're doing, so they don't stop.
And what is a fault for that? At least? What's the theory in
this episode is this idea of theread technique, which is this they call
it the Bible of interrogation, andit's broken down into all these phases and
steps and so the argument of thisepisode is that the re technique is at

(30:04):
fault because it's giving these interrogators theconfidence to think that they are doing something
correct, but it's not. Youknow, they are there. It's designed
to make you anxious to deny thingsas opposed to making it easier for you

(30:26):
to just water boardom. That seemslike the next logical step the way that
these guys are in. If you'rejust if you just want him to say
what you want him to say,Yeah, you're you're that's not gonna they're
not getting the truth. Well here'sthe thought too. We a couple of
weeks ago and actually many weeks onthe show, we deal with these killers
who are so arrogant. And thisis a strange episode because it's the police

(30:49):
officers that I think are being reallyarrogant. They're the ones who are just
assuming that they know what's best,they know how to spot a liar,
and in their their mind, Ithink theo in the episode is like,
we don't interrogate innocent people, sothe fact that you're sitting in this chair
means that you have something to hide, and the mentality of that is what's
kind of screwing all this up.And that's why I don't think that they're

(31:11):
necessarily being bad or lazy. They'redoing what they think is what an interrogator
does. But there's something about themwanting just one person when they don't have
any physical evidence. They don't haveany you know, they're just that was

(31:32):
the last place he was, thevictim was was at this kid's house.
Yeah, like that's all as theyhave. Yeah, no physical evidence or
anything like that. So they're justI don't understand why they're taking such a
hard run at him. Like that'swhy I think I'm trying to figure out

(31:52):
whether they're just clueless or absolutely evil. Yeah, I mean, and again
we keep bringing up this idea ofquotas, which again we don't know if
it's actually a thing quote or not. But yeah, I mean again,
I just that's kind of what instinctuallyit feels like to me, like they're
just like, man, we gottaget the we gotta close the books on

(32:15):
this case. Like we're we haveso many open investigations right now, and
you know, we need to getthis number down so that we don't look
like a loser police department that's notdoing their job right. And so they
got a couple of people who arelike tangentially related because one of the other
things that's crazy about this episode isthat they're doing this to the sister too,
which is not revealed until three chordsthe way through the episode, and

(32:37):
you're like, what the fuck.Yeah, like, wait, they're not
just doing this to one they're doingthis to two different kids, and who
knows what she's saying about, youknow, what they're getting her to say
about her brother and oh, wellshe said this, so let's go back
to him. You know, theyjust have a hole. You think they
would have pulled out when it cameback when they said and then you guys
all went and spent his money,right, and he ended up having only

(32:59):
thirty eight in the bank. Sothe worst than that, it was eight
cents. So that right there,doesn't you know, like that's you've run
into a wall there, And andI don't understand why that wall doesn't make
them stop. It makes them pusheven harder, makes them push even harder.

(33:20):
That's the wild part. I hadanother thought too, along these same
lines, Well, these guys firedthese cops. Well, I do have
a little bit of an update here, Okay, at the end, we'll
find out I can do at theend, although I don't know specifically if
they were fired, but I'm gonnajust say that they're probably not working anymore
based on what I've read, Sothey yeah, they yeah, we'll talk

(33:40):
about it when we got to it. What I was gonna say is they
are acting like they're interrogating some likesuper villain. And one of the things
about the story that I found kindof interesting is the notion of chess,
and that this kid played chess withthe guy before he disappeared. The kid

(34:01):
obviously likes to play chess. Iwould think that if I was interrogating a
criminal mastermind who was also a fanof chess, that it would be a
much more difficult interrogation, Yeah,that he would always be one step ahead.
But instead, that to me islike a big clue that this kid's

(34:22):
telling the truth about things, becausethe fact that he's a chess player tells
me that he has some concept oflogical thinking of of you know, action
and reaction. But the way thathe's talking should like explain to you that
this kid is not an evil genius. He's not an evil genius. And
he says many times, I don'tget what you want me to say.

(34:45):
You're trying to get me to saysomething, but I don't understand what you
want me to say. I'll saywhat you want me to say if you
just tell me what you want meto say. Yeah, And they're like,
now you got to say what youwant to say. It's so frustra
it's so frustrating for the kids.Like and we've had this, we've had
this talk before where the murderer hasbeen eighteen years old. Yeah, and

(35:07):
we've talked about you know, atsome point you got to take responsibility.
But when you hear that this otherkid talk, this kid talk, who
turns out to be the victim.He's so innocent. Yeah, he's just
they're just you know, they're almosttaken down for his gump. You know,
it's just it's just annoying. Let'splay another clip here, that speaking

(35:29):
number two? Oh boy, isthat number two? I've been jumping all
over the place here, Um,just kind of speaking to what you're saying.
Probably the detectives ask him like,well, I just guess I'll just
have to play the clip. Letme just play the clip. He's playing
the clip. Everyone's got the round. Clips are being played. You understand

(35:50):
we know more than what? Yeah, do you think I already know?
I was feeling you guys already know. Detectives, what do you think?
Well, I think you know whathappened to Mark, and I think you
know you don't know what necessarily whathappened, not like all what happened.
I know he goes some the exacttime of days he was there, and

(36:15):
some of the stuff that he hasdone wasn't that last week. That's about
all I know. So what Iwas trying to get to with that clip
is it's like, if you wereto read the words of what he's saying,
it would sound like he's taunting thepolice, right, because they'll say,
like, what do you think weknow? Like, I think you

(36:36):
know quite a lot about this murder, because you guys are detectives, and
I'm sure you've got it all figuredout by now, Like that's what the
words look like on a paper.But when you hear him saying it,
he's not taunting them. He's likepolitely answering them honestly, like what do
you think we know? Well,I mean, I'm you guys are detectives,
so I'm sure you guys know.You must know, you must know
instead of your detectives, you mustknow. Like it. There's a different

(37:00):
prints when you hear it versus whenyou read it, which is why I
don't trust Twitter. Yeah, don'ttalk to Twitter. Yeah that should be
the other. When you say thingson Twitter, people don't always hear what
you said. Yeah, that's whyI say, if you read my Twitter,
read it in my voice. Yeah, that'll go a lot farther.
Yeah. Another clip here, Thisone Uber three makes my blood boil.

(37:22):
Bloiling blood clip went to bed?What's the next noise you here? Okay,
nothing at all? Nothing? Doyou have any kind of disabilities.
I did have quote, but mentaldisabilities, not mental Now you make these

(37:42):
grace I engraduate Junior, who goeswith it. I won't tell you what
you got. The inconsistencies with someof the stories you tell. I think
it was just that particular line ofquestioning where they went like, you went
to bed, you didn't hear anything. Do you have mental problems? Like
I just seem so rude to mealmost, I don't know it was,

(38:02):
it was, yeah, do youhave mental problems? Do you have any
disabilities? I got a club foot, any mental problems like that wasn't good
enough? Yeah, well, speakingof the clubs, sure, I don't
have club sandwich foot. Oh delicious. The thing about the club foot is
by the end of this, he'slike talking about sleep walking or something.

(38:24):
Do you remember this part in theepisode goes, I got, well,
maybe maybe I have slept walk before, so maybe I did this in my
sleep I don't. I don't rememberdoing it. Yeah. Then it's like,
but I couldn't chase him. Ihad I have a club foot.
Yeah, I told you guys earlier. Yeah, but that at that point
the cops must just be so desperatethat to get him to say, like

(38:46):
he said so many times, Inever saw him after I went to sleep,
and they're like, we saw youthat you saw him after you would
probab sleep. How about the factthat they said, we have photos of
you all in the car or right, So, so when you have to
do that and there's there's no photosof it, it's you know, they're

(39:09):
saying, well, there's just youknow, they're kind of bending the truth.
No, they're fucking they're fucking withhim now. He's just like,
you do why do you have thatright? Well, I have sleptwalk before,
but I don't think I went outwith my family and drove around.
Yeah, and murdered someone. Iknow. It's it's so strange that they

(39:30):
use lies to get information. Butagain, part of what makes it such
a complicated issue is that if thatperson really did do something horrible and they
don't want to talk about it,I'm like, okay with the cops figuring
out a sneaky way get that personto him too. But when when you're

(39:52):
making up a lie, like wehave photos of you driving around and there's
no photos of him drive having around, it's it's that's more than being okay,
well we know that you're in thecar. We have your fingerprints in
the car, right, Well,maybe you do have my finger prints in
the car. I've been in therebefore, you know what I mean.

(40:13):
That's that's okay. Well they alsotried to do that with him too.
They were asking him like, amI going to find DNA evidence of you?
And he says something like like onhis hand or on his back?
Because I patted him on the back, I gave him a hug or something.
I know everybody I know a hurtthat might but why is it on
his bad Why did he giz onhis bad Yeah, I'm not not going

(40:34):
a DNA I got a DNA test. Now. We mentioned earlier the foster
kid who's also living in this house, Harley Wade, who had a tendency
toward violence, and when he firstmoved in, he almost choked the mom
to death. I felt like thatwould have been a big red flag to
return return that foster kid, likewhat do you do? Maybe we don't

(40:57):
need the five hundred a month.Yeah, But as mentioned earlier, the
fact that that guy was never interrogatedjust because because he would have to have
an attorney with him. This isanother like damning statement for these officers that
are very they're very lazy police officers, and they're not good police officers.
And I'm if I'm coming across antipolice, I am not. I'm not

(41:22):
anti police. But the police aren'tone hundred percent perfect either. They're just
the same as everything else. There'sbad in everything. And when sometimes they
go up, you know, badends up upstream and dilutes the rest of
the stream, you know, andit makes it, it makes it murky.
So you have to you have torealize that sometimes it's bad and it's

(41:46):
not. They're not there for toprotect. There there for their own mission,
own reasons missions. They're on theirown mission, Yeah, from Tom
Cruise, to make everybody's scientologists.That's right. I thought it was interesting
too when the when the kid saidthat he saw some news alert on his
phone right that the police were like, well, you said that you you

(42:07):
knew it was a body or youknew it was your uncle. How did
you know that? He's like,as I saw it on my phone and
I just have thought, oh,maybe that's my uncle who disappeared. I
haven't seen him, we haven't heardfrom him again. We kind of were
going in circles here, but thepolice just putting the words into his mouth.
I was kind of impressed at asixteen year old had of news alerts

(42:28):
coming up. Yeah, that's true. I was like, Wow, let's
play another clip. I don't knowwhat number this one is four, perhaps
number four. This is the onearound everyone clips are happening. This is
the one where I feel like theyfinally broke him. They finally break this
kid and he starts crying and justdoesn't know how to tell them something that

(42:51):
they haven't already heard. Can Iask, do you think it's he should
have been able to you know what? I maybe I do need a lawyer,
like he should have been able todo that, you should be able
to Definitely, I'm glad you broughtthat up, because that was another one
of Mike's points about this is thatthe kid didn't know that he had to
stay right, or didn't know thathe could leaves what I meant to say,
and so he just just sat thereand just kept taking this punishment for

(43:15):
just hours and hours and hours.But here is them breaking him and the
cop just such a fucking dick thingto him. Pretty early on. Okay,
I'll start from the beginning. I'llgive me exactly everything that I know.
Is it gonna be the same shotwe've already heard? Yes? Possibly
that part right there. I'm gonnatell you guys, is it the same

(43:37):
shit we already heard? Like?All right, can I just go please?
Well, yeah, it's gonna bethe same shit. Yeah, okay.
Look, I want to know whathappened to Marcus. I think one
time you cared about it, allright, and you still care about him,
all right. I need to findout what happened there. We need
to know, we to know howmuch you're evolved it. What do you

(44:05):
know if you're the one at harmingI'm not the one that armed him.
Do you know who? Oh?I don't. I think you're leave him
some amount. I don't know.I'm being serious. I don't know who
armed however, he left. Idon't they does. Yeah. I just

(44:31):
at the end of that clip whereyou just hear the kid go like,
oh my God, like he justcan't fathom that this is happening to him.
I just feel so bad for himat that. Yeah, you think
he's ever gonna trust a gap again? No, I don't think so.
They talk a little bit as well. We mentioned earlier that he worked at
an ice cream shop um and thatdetectives had come to visit him there.

(44:52):
I thought this was interesting. Theynoticed that his hand was swollen and had
scrapes on it, and then Williamsaid that he punched a tree and that's
why he scrapes on his hand.I just thought bad. But at the
same time, I'm like, ah, yeah, he's sixteen, right's yeah,
they're like eighteen by the time.I don't know if he's eighteen at

(45:12):
the time of the trial or atthe time of this store. I think
he's eighteen when he gets interrogated oneof the sixteen eighteen. Yeah, but
you do stupid things when yeah,at that age and you're just like,
oh man, there's that, there'sthat that guy, that governor that's in
a wheelchair. They have the picturesof the video him beating up a tree.
Yeah, so you know it happened. It happens people beat up trees.
But what are the weird time,like just the time you're like,

(45:34):
fuck, really have punched a treethree days before the exactly bad, terrible
timing. And I don't know,did you ever work in an ice cream
store or have friends that worked atan ice cream store. No, I
had friends that worked at the localthirty and your hands get gnarled, really
screwed up, and they get likelike milky and uh and pruny. It's

(45:54):
gross. What are they soaking inthe ice cream? What they kind of
do? If you're working an icecream shop over the summer, you're just
constantly gonna dip that scooper in thewater and scrape it all out. Because
I said to my wife, andI'm like, what the fuck's happening at
that ice cream shop? That he'sall scarred up? Yeah, well that
seemed like maybe I don't know whatthey were talking about, the rods or

(46:14):
something, the wires around from fromthe lids, right, Yeah, maybe
that's what it was. But I'mtelling you I had friends that. First
of all, you smell awful whenyou work in ice creams. You start
it starts out with that waffle conesmell, but eventually is just like that,
like, uh, spoiled milk wouldprobably be the best thing to describe.
Bring that with you wherever you go. Oh man, gross, it's

(46:35):
way gross. Always work in ayogurt chop, never an ice cream chop.
That's the key. You gotta getthat soft served baby can come to
you. They let him just weighit and send him on. My favorite
part is that they have the tipmachine on those yogurt things and like,
I just did all the work,your sons of it. Yeah, let's
jump to the false confession because Ithink it's interesting. You did it,

(46:57):
You did it did The story thatthey eventually concoct is very bizarre, which
is that they he played chess withhis quote unquote uncle who then left,
and then rather than going to bed, which he claimed he did, the
officers get both him and his sisterto admit quote unquote that they got into

(47:20):
a vehicle after ending the chase game, drove along the road, saw him
walking there, stopped the car,and then the crazy foster kid got out
and started laughing and then eventually startedpunching and kicking and choking this guy.
And then the other kids also gotinvolved in this punching and kicking and choking,

(47:42):
and then they took the body thatcovered it in a tarp and they
threw it in the river. Butthen when you kind of learn about all
the different and it was like upcurrent. It was upstream from where they
claimed. Oh yeah, yeah,I forgot about that. Yeah, all
these and then again all the like, oh we have footage of you,
we have the DNA, like,none of that. They don't have any

(48:04):
of that, which going back toare they evil or are they just bad?
I mean, yeah, just Ithink they're evil. You just think
they're straight. I think that.I think when you just go after one
thing and don't have a group ofsubspects at the beginning, you're in you're
this guy did it, This guydid it. Yeah, you've got it.

(48:25):
You've got some sort of boner forbeing a bad person. Yeah,
because you're right. I mean,these guys, these cops couldn't possibly have
fully believed, knowing all these facts, that the kid did it. They
all just keep I know, they'lljust keep blowing up too, and they
never let the kid know that itblew up. Well, maybe you're right,
maybe you're right. They never saythat to the kid once, where
like, well maybe you're right,maybe you know you're right. Okay,

(48:50):
you aren't. You do your handsare scraped up because of ice cream?
You're right? Yeah, but whythis and then he's able to do that?
Okay, all right? Then yeah, you could just tell from the
quality of his answers that he's speakingthe truth, and going back to the
sort of the science behind this wholething, the fact that false confessions happen

(49:13):
a lot. I had a lotmore than you think that they would.
And they don't just happen to peoplewho are maybe at a mental disadvantage or
they're a juvenile, like what happensto normal people, which is something that
blew my mind because I thought itwas always somebody that had some sort of
mental disability. Yeah, I didn'tthink any just normal person just agreed to
it. Yeah, which again itjust asking ourselves the question of I guess

(49:38):
now I would have to in thatscenario ask for a lawyer, but it's
still not clear really why, likewhy did they confess? It really is
just to like be left alone.Well, like I just feel like I
would go to my fucking grave.I would say that interrogation room for forty

(49:58):
eight hours, which you would neverhear me say that I did it because
I didn't. It's kind of thesame thing when people you're a victim,
you're a victim, and that you'reyou're you're being beaten down, you're being
you so you're you just want justleave me alone. Just just leave me
alone. Um. And there's it'sit's more than just you know, um

(50:22):
that that case, it's like,um, there was a hockey player that
was raped by a video coach.You know, they got drunk and he
took advantage of them, and thenthe guy held above them. Hey,
I'm going to take your career awayif you tell anybody about this, like,
and people are like, why wouldn'tyou beat him up? Because it
doesn't matter, It doesn't matter aboutyour size. But when people have of

(50:44):
power, of power, when thecop that put that uh or that coach
hold that above you, you turninto a weak person. Yeah, that's
true. And the cop is thatthey're they're a person of power. They're
holding they're holding your life in theirhands. And you're like, oh,
if I do this, I'm gonnayou know, it's gonna be better for

(51:04):
me, even though it's not gonnabe better for you. But they've talked
you into believing it's going to bebetter for you. Right now, that's
very well said. And that andI'm not really in the way I said,
I just no. That was thatwas perfect because it reminds me of
the sort of end of this falseconfession, which is the kid asking the
police like, did what I justsay to you come close to what actually

(51:30):
happened? Like he's still a mindin the ballpark yet him? Are you
guys making me play happy with me? Yet? Please? Like, even
in this moment of doing this falseconfession, the kid, I think is
thinking his own innocence will prevail.I'll say whatever you want, but you
guys know that I didn't really dothis. So if you want me to
say that and it will help yourcase, then I'm gonna tell you that

(51:51):
to help your case. But wasthat close to that help? And that
guys are just like, yes,it helped us perfectly right, And now
that kid's screws just googles, yes, googles. Well, again, we
already went through this idea that allof these aspects of the story could be
fact checked. The debit card havingeight cents on it, the location being

(52:14):
we've all been the eight cents,we've all been there. Oh yeah,
we've all been there. But alsothis idea and the like the doctor that
they the expert that is interviewed inthis episode also talks about how like how
convincing confessions are and that even whenyou have the DNA evidence that might exonerate

(52:36):
somebody, the power of a verbalconfession will sometimes outweigh that DNA. Which
is so it just seems so backwards. You would think that the DNA this
is science, This is a scientificproof that they were or were not there.
And they're like, well, theysaid that they weren't there, so
that has to be what we've learnedthat over over the pandemic. Science can

(53:00):
be out science out tied, butit can be out and it can be
overthought. Yeah, and and wellyou know words can mean more than the
science. Yeah. Well, wegot to hear a little bit about what
happened to each of the kids,and they really were kids. They were
teenagers that were involved in this story. Um, we know that the sister

(53:25):
who wasn't interrogated in this story,her name is Andrea, which, by
the way, Andrea and Deirdre.This goes along with my name and your
kids all with the same first letter. You know how many times I had
to go back and listen to thisfucking part of the episode and this name
sound exactly the same. Sorry alittle rant there. Just changed to everybody's

(53:45):
name so it's easier for the murdershows in case something goes down. Yeah,
So Andrea was held for a weekand then the charges were dropped.
That's probably the best case scenario ofeverybody. I think, is there a
lawsuit available for that? In fact, there is, and that isn't the
updates. And I have the sonof a bitch, I digest what is
that? I'm gonna jomp I hadwe gonna drop I had your Jemmy had
three sentences. So let me dothese three sentences. First, let me

(54:07):
shot it back Harley, which isthe the kid who was prone to violence.
Charges were never brought up to him, which is again, if if
we're gonna say that anybody, itwas probably that kids. It's probably the
guy that was named after a bikergang. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Deerdre who was the one who wasinterrogated and then falsely confessed to a crime

(54:31):
she did not commit. She wasin prison for four months before the charges
were dropped. And then our boyWilliam Hurt, he was in prison for
eight months and then once it wentto trial, he was found not guilty
on every single account, which isjust so embarrassing for your police department.
But here's my update, because atthe end of the episode, we learned

(54:51):
that the Hurt family is filing acivil suit against the police. So here's
the deal. In August of twentytwenty, twenty twenty one, the Hurt
family settled that wrongful imprisonment lawsuit.So the Hunt family maintained that the brother

(55:13):
was a paranoid schizophrenic he had threatenedto jump off the bridge near where the
body was found. The Court ofAppeals allowed the suit to proceed after determining
that the qualified immunity was not appropriate, and then the US Supreme Court refused
to review that ruling, and thenbasically the civil lawsuit got pushed back from

(55:37):
twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one.But ultimately the parties settled the suit before
I could get there, so itis considered a significant victory for civil rights.
And the details on the settlement werenot shared, so it's kind of
impossible to know exactly what happened.But again, if we're talking about a

(55:58):
settlement here, my assumption is alot of money to the Hurt family,
and those officers responsible I'm assuming losttheir jobs, but that's me inferring a
little bit. I'm no, atleast they were due to demoded they have
been. I mean, this isa huge and also something that we should
brought up with other police departments andshown in training of the things that you

(56:21):
don't do. Yeah. Well that'skind of an interesting question too, is
do you think that the like theread technique will just kind of remain or
do you think eventually we're going tokind of learn other ways to interrogate people
that might not lead to I thinkwe're trying to lean against it, even
in when we're doing military like whenyou know, when we're taking combatants of

(56:45):
the United States and we're trying toget information out of them by getting rid
of we're trying to get rid ofthe way we get the information out of
them, to make it different becausethey realized you don't get the truth and
you don't get what you need byyou know, beating somebody there. If
they don't have it, they'll giveit, give you something just to get

(57:05):
you to stop beating them. Yeah. So I think it's it's going to
take a long time, but youknow, you know how people are.
We fought seatbelts, we fought smokingindoors. You know, I mean,
we're we're a fucking mess. Soyeah, we don't we don't do it.
It's like, oh, yeah,that is you're right, Yeah,
we shouldn't do that. Now we'relike, noah, when we should try
it out a couple more times,We're not really sure. Yeah, so

(57:27):
yeah, I would like to thinkthat there will be another type of interrogation
tactic. Yeah, I just agreewith the other before next time, before
next time I go to jail.Yeah, I just it is the fact
that you can. It says inthe episode that it's very hard to tell
the difference between a coerced confession andan actual confession. That to me is

(57:49):
kind of freaky. Yeah, itcertainly seemed to me listening to that audio
that that seemed like a coerced confession. But maybe that's just because that's it's
being broken down line by line andMike is sort of explain to us why
this is right or wrong. Soit's pretty clear. But it's weird to
me that you could sit a jurydown and show them two confessions and one
of them's real ones not and theywouldn't be able to tell the difference.

(58:12):
So I don't know what that means, but they're I don't know, I
mean, and the like lie detectors. That was seemed like an interesting advancement
in technology to have a thing thatcould actually tell you if someone was lying
or not. But we've all learnedthat that's a bunch of bullshit too,
right, So I don't know whatthe solution is. Sodium pentethal? Wow,
drug people up right, Yeah,that's True's give them the happy drugs.

(58:36):
Yeah, daddy on, now we'retalking. We've got to amp up
the electronic music. Give them somemolly and just what they say. Yeah,
what a great idea. And Ido I the way Mike said it
may not be the way that peoplewanted to hear it, but you should

(58:57):
definitely know your rights and be smart. Yeah, and I hope that this
episode taught people something taught me.I definitely think about my own scenarios,
like my own panic scenarios, alittle differently. You know, I think
I would act a little bit differently. Yeah, you know, we none
of us want to ever be andbe in that situation. But if we're

(59:20):
ever in that situation, which youknow, could happen, you never know,
you know, knock on wood thatit never does. But you should
know, Hey, some people aren'tout there for your best interest. They're
out there trying to solve a crime, and yeah, and get done here
if you really had something to doit, you mean nothing to them.
Yeah, well they say don't talkto cops, but they do say talk

(59:44):
to podcasters. That right, theydo, and we encourage you to reach
out to us again. I'm onthe Twitter at Matt fonde Leer. Ian's
on Twitter at sir Ian Bag SyrianBag. I'm also on the TikTok.
Are you on the TikTok? I'mnot. I'm putting my comedies on the
tiko. People have been watching me. What's your handle? How do we
follow Ian Bag comedian great on theTikTok? And yeah, and they send

(01:00:07):
me all sorts of things to lookat as either a girl dancing or it's
very interesting the TikTok. But it'sfun. So Ian Bag on there.
You should get a TikTok, which, yeah, all right. Maybe I
think I've put some sword and scalestuff up there. Oh cool, So
I think there is a sword andscale or somebody else is doing one.
It's not yeah, something's going onwith sword scale on there. Um,

(01:00:29):
but yeah, yeah, it's good. Cool. Well, subscribe to our
podcast if you're not already Sword andScale rewind. We also have other shows
that we do. I do ashow called The Water Cooler, which is
a lot of fun. I havea food segment called Chef on Delay,
which I've been working on for decades. Did you do anything for Did you
do anything for Thanksgiving? For yourfood? Oh? Yeah, talked about
the incredible spread that my family had, Not that my mom cooked, because

(01:00:51):
she don't cook. But we wentto a nice restaurant. That was good.
That's good. Ian. You haveanother show as well that you do.
Hold on, I'm gonna talk.This is a Christmas Yeah, this
is least in January. Did youdo anything for New Year's Yes? I
did. I had a magnificent spread. Sorry, people, I'm a little

(01:01:13):
dumb. I would have I wouldhave I would have admitted him the crime
way earlier than that kid. Wellagain, thank you guys for listening.
Please tell a friend and tell yourfriends as well. Telephone, tell a
friend. Yeah, and tell yourfriends this. Don't be a douchebag.
Yeah you tell them that. Yeahyeah, Mashy sort of Scale Reward is

(01:01:45):
a production of incongruity media. Ifyou enjoyed the show, leave us a
five star rating, had a glowingreview no criticism please it hurts our feelings.
Be sure to tell your friends aboutus, but not your family or
co workers because they'll think you're weird. Okay, that's it until next time,
don't be a douchebag.