Episode 169

In an extremely meta-episode: Matt and Ian talk about Mike and Charles talking about last week's episode, as well as react to everyone else's reactions. Matt also details a very disturbing case out of Arkansas.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Welcome to Sword and Scale rewind withyour hosts Matt Fondealier and Ian Bag.

(00:39):
Hey, what's up everybody? Welcomeback to Sword and Scale rewind. I
missed you, guys. It's beena really long week, but I'm glad
you're here. My name is MattFondelier. I'm one of the hosts of
the show, and I'm also reallyglad that Ian Bag is here again.
Well, hello, Matt, youready to talk? I'm some murder We're
not. Are we talking murder day? Or is this the actual first ever
true crime podcast? We're just discussedcrime that could very well be the case.

(01:03):
Yeah. We As you know,listener, we tend to cover the
episode number that corresponds with the episodeof Sword and Scale. So in the
case of episode one sixty nine,we're talking about episode one sixty nine.
But here's the thing. Episode onesixty nine is kind of about episode one
sixty eight. It's very much aboutone sixty and we've already covered episode one

(01:25):
sixty eight in excruciating detail. I'mtold, so, is that what somebody
told you? I'm making that outon my own worst enemy. I was
like, you guys talked a littledude. Yeah, it's my own brain
gone. He's cutting in off toomany times. You should let the man
talk more. Now. That's whyeverybody in shot up and let Matt finish.
That's what they tell me all thetime. I'm like, I'm sorry,

(01:46):
I apologize and quit saying like.That's what my mom says. See
you don't like when you say theword like, But I can tell you
I never notice it. I've heardyou pointed out in episodes, but I
don't notice it. It's when I'mreally thinking my brain goes like like,
like, look like we all havethose, we all have the ticks.
I've got lots of so and lotsof my mother. Yeah, screw your

(02:09):
trying to relate to you. Goddamnit. Oh good times on nine?
Yes, do you remember one?Do you remember what episode sixty nine was?
Actual episode sixty nine? Remember?Oh? I don't, just because
we're talking about sixty nine. Yeah, just wondering if you remember doing that
one as well. I could lookit up real quickly, because you know
I will. Why don't you youfeel about because you did? You did

(02:30):
a hundred and forty of these beforeI showed up, right. Oh yeah,
I was actually I don't know ifeverybody knows the story. Gather round,
Gather round, round, folks.So here here's the deal, guys.
I don't know if you've heard,but I work for Adam Carol Let's
come up on this show before.Now completely unrelated to that job. I

(02:51):
loved this podcast, Sword and Scale. Now, Adam Carolla's now unfortunately ex
wife, Lynette Corolla was really intotrue crime stuff, right, and I
got you divorced them not killing him. That could have gone a totally different
ways when she might have been learningand stuff. Yeah, well, I
told her about this awesome show calledSword and Scale that I thought she would

(03:13):
really like. She and her cohost, Stephanie Wilder Taylor got super into
Sword and Scale to the point wherethey reached out to Mike Boudet. Oh.
Now for a really long time,Lynnette and Stephanie, the podcast co
hosts of a show on the CorollaNetwork, became the hosts of Sword and
Scale. Rewind I was the producerof that show, mostly because I stuck

(03:39):
my big nose into everything and sayyou should make this happen, and I
want to be a part of it. So even though I was not on
the microphone, from episode one.I was behind the glass since the very
first episode. So you started producingand then you've turned into that. That's
right, by the way, thismay be the first show that women have
been replaced by men. Sorry,girls usually goes around the other way.

(04:02):
We need to get some females involvedwell. Anyway, So over the years
my role has changed a lot overthere. When did you start going on
air? UM, I am notexactly sure. It was probably it was
well over one hundred episodes. Iwould say more like hundred and fifteen something

(04:24):
like that, where Lynette just becameextremely busy and and I was like,
I'm just I'm here anyway, Ilive in this building. I wonder if
she started to break down too,because just murder, murder, murder coming.
It was a lot to go.It was a lot to listen to,
and then a lot to kind ofreanalyze and try to figure out the
best way to approach it comedically.I had sort of guest hosted a few

(04:44):
episodes earlier on in the run umand I don't think they knew how much
of a ham I am. Youknow, Oh no, I was like,
fuck yeah, I gave me themic. I do this by myself
and they're like, Matt, we'retrying to take this very serious. If
you should pump the brakes a littlebit, could you could call him the
victim of loser? Yeah, that'sthat's an unfortunate theme. Oh goodness,

(05:10):
So there you go. That's uh, that is that's the whole story.
So that's why Corolla and Sword andScale are like they're kind of related through
me. And that's how I endedup here because I tried Adams Show and
You're like, hey, you shouldtalk about murder. Yeah. It was
like, you're a funny guy.I should try to ruin your life and
I don't feel like you're do enoughcrying anybody. Yeah, you know it's

(05:31):
great. Is I will bring upthe show on stage at the end of
my show. I'll say, hey, I got some podcasts and one of
them is you like murder? Andrecently I was in Chicago. I was
like, that's that's our sport ismurder. So I brought that up.
Did you get like a no,I gotta I gotta plot. Really funny
every time I say do you likemurder? They all clap. It's so

(05:55):
funny. That's great. So Ibring up Sword and Scale and I say,
I'm not on that, but Ido the Autopsy Show. That's what
I call it, The Autopsy Show. A certain scale that's good. And
people are like wow, and thenand then uh, and you should listen
to that. And I go,we do it from the Adam Corolla studios
and people go, oh, it'sso funny. How it just grows.

(06:15):
Oh, oh babe, a lotof buzzwords. Yeah, they just they
usually at the beginning, they justthink I'm some douche in my closet with
a microphone. Yeah, now I'min somebody else's closet. That's right.
Sadly, we are recording from alarge closet. Basically windows, that's what
production window. That's what studios arethough, basically closets. That's true.

(06:38):
I'm gonna I'm gonna skip her headin this in this thing. Sure,
they talk about podcasts and radio versusradio. I know I wrote that down
too. So which do you thinkwhich which impresses people more? Podcasts or
radio? Interesting question? And thenwhy has radio been such bad money for

(07:02):
most people? Where some people makea lot of money? Okay, Because
you know, I've have these friendsthat are in radio and they don't make
much money, and then there's acouple of people that make I shit done.
I don't know why. I justsuddenly got scared that I said shit.
Well, to talk about the lastpart first, the entertainment industry is

(07:23):
filled with jobs of bizarre pay levels, and so it doesn't seem that unusual
that you have some people making nota lot and other people making an obscene
amount in what is essentially the samefield. I feel like that happens a
lot in the entertainment realm. Soyou just think it's it's not it's not.
I mean, there was a I'vebeen at this company for a long

(07:44):
enough time to remember when people didn'tknow what a podcast was, and so
in the beginning, it was verydifficult to explain to people what podcast even
meant without using the word radio.It became a lot easier for me to
tell people I work in digital radio, and then people kind of understood what
that meant. Um. I wonderwhy they didn't stick with digital radio instead

(08:07):
of podcast. Yeah, I'm notsure. I think because the iPod,
you know, I think that mayhave had something to do with why the
word podcast became such a catchy name. There's somebody out there who like takes
credit for inventing the word podcast.I'm gonna say something really might embarrass me
and might make me. What isWell, this is only the fourteenth episode
we've done together, so it willpossibly be the worst thing. You said,

(08:28):
what is pod? Like pod?I? What is? What is
pod? Yeah? What is it? What is an iPod? A legal
drug that the kids do? We'reyeah, but is I'm not sure?
You know, Okay, so I'mnot so so it wasn't something else that
equals podcasts, right? It doesn'tknow, it's just yeah, I'm not

(08:50):
sure why. I'm almost positive ithas to do with the word iPod,
but I could be completely So It'skind of like windex compared to glass cleaner,
you know, sure, yeah,yeah, clean X compared to issue
paper Yeah, okay, all right, you got me? Yeah, there
you go. And I mean,I think podcasting became way more lucrative when
people started being able to sort ofprogram it into their cars. And the

(09:13):
amount of commercials that you hear issignificantly less. You would hear way less,
you know, eight minute commercial breakson the radio for eight minutes of
content, way less. And also, well, I think we've discussed this
before whereas Mike can tell a storywhere he doesn't have to have an edge,

(09:33):
like there's no cliff he can falloff. He can go as far
as you want on the story,whereas radio and TV you got to keep
it in their boundaries. That's agreat point too. There's all sorts of
like the FCC and censorship, andso far, at least podcasts have been
pretty immune to that. They sortof have become a home for free speech,
right, which is why I likepeople like it. I like it

(09:54):
because for me, podcasts, Ilike podcasts be kits. You get to
curate your own radio station, iswhat you basically are doing. Sure,
so I can go from hockey tomurder to comedy, you know, and
I get to listen to everything ina ride or where where I'm at the
gym or whatever. Yeah. So, and on this show you get to
listen to murder and comedy so goodthat somebody dies and then we laugh,

(10:18):
We laugh. What do you dofor a living? We laugh at dead
people. It's great. You shouldcheck it out. Oh my god,
well this episode, yeah, that'strue. This is an episode where nobody
actually died because the entire episode isa reaction show. It's sort of its

(10:39):
own rewind show. It was right. It was like, let's talk about
what happened in the last episode,and there was his response to the last
episode. It was his response topeople's response to the last episode. That's
right. So if people hadn't respondedthe way they had, I don't think
he would have done this one.I think he was shocked. I mean
that was the sort of opening MONOLOGUwas about, Yeah, most of you

(11:01):
guys are pretty cool. Well maybenot most of you guys, but some
of you guys are cool and therest of you dick. So when I
when I think about when I thoughtabout this, who I just fell off
my chair trying to think about um, I kind of I thought it was
don't talk to cops like that section. Had he renamed it something like just

(11:28):
the way it was sounded, maybesome people because people react to certain words.
People I do a joke about beingmolested and peep key laughter, Yeah,
well people boo it and like whywould you boo the victim? Like
it makes no sense? So alsohere is molest right, so they don't
hear the whole thing. And Ithink that was the same thing with that

(11:50):
episode's title. Yeah, sort oflike click baity. Yeah, people were
just reading the headline of it andnot right taking the time to understand it
within the context of the episode.I don't think he did that on purpose,
though, No, I don't thinkso either. Right, Yeah,
he was really trying to focus onthe like protecting your personal liberty when you're
involved in a crime. Like Ithink he's talking about a pretty specific scenario,

(12:16):
not saying if you get pulled overfor speeding, you don't have to
talk to a police officer, orif somebody tells you not to go over
there. You know, I don'thave listened to you that. That's not
what he was saying. But thenyou're like you said, just the title,
don't talk to cops. People seethat and they go, oh my
god, here we go, Yeah, here we go. Dang thinks better
than but like they actually think thatguy that's taping the cop from inside the

(12:37):
window, can I see you?Right? You get out, I don't
have to talk to you, Likethat's who they see, right, Yeah,
But that's not what he was saying. No, not at all.
And it's it's it's interesting when youhear this and when you the types of
cops I don't think detectives should becalled cops. Yeah, we were kind
of talking about that. I thinkin the last episode we kind of did

(12:58):
that. But also it's even morethis episode. I'm like, because they
do talk about defunding the police inthis a little bit. Yeah, which
is stupid. We all know that. But I understand what they're trying to
say when they say defund the police. But there are nowhere near what there
should do. There should be differenttypes of policing. Here's a thought parallel
to this. Here's what I'm thinkinganother way, a metaphor, if you

(13:20):
will, all right, you can'tcall a chess prodigy a checkers expert,
see what I'm saying. I don'tknow if that made sense saying it out
loud, but yeah, that madesense. It's on the same board,
but it's a completely different game.Yeah, And if you're a detective,
you're like a chess player and youhave a whole different strategy of how to

(13:41):
win that game. You might begood at checkers, but it's a different
game. Right, So I cansee what you mean. How maybe being
a detective versus being like a copcould be two different things. I don't
think it's necessary for you to havebeen a street cop to become a detective.
Yeah, is the way I'm goingout. I think there should be

(14:03):
schooling to become a detective. Onlyfrom my experience with I have a couple
of friends that kind of are inthe realm of law enforcement, and it
would seem that really, and thisis not to say anything of the officers
who are not in this position,but the impression that I got was that
like the best and the brightest arethe ones who become the detectives. Now,

(14:24):
I'm sure that's just pr in peopleI think it is who really want
to be a detective see it thatway. But my father in law is
in law enforcement and my brother inlaw enforcement law enforcement, and I you
know, I see what they theway they went. My brother in law

(14:45):
is a canine officer, so hewants he's a dog. He's a dog.
It's an incredible My brother in lawis Scooby Doo. He investigates cross
but you know, I mean hewanted to he specialized. There's it doesn't
matter what career we're in. There'sthe people that specialize and the people I'm

(15:09):
just fine with just being general andjust not really rock on the boat too
much and just kind of going it'sit doesn't matter if you're a policeman,
like, there's there's gonna be thosepeople there, and there's gonna be bad
cops, and there's gonna there's stillgonna be bad detectives. It doesn't matter.
But I think if we tried tofind those people earlier and then instead
of pushing them up while you go, you go walk around and beat fine

(15:33):
Like I don't it doesn't make senseto me. That's true. Yeah,
I'm also thinking that there want tobe a chef, you should learn how
to farm. There you go onthe field, they're gonna learn all about
the different produce and stuff. Yeah, there you go. That's good.
I think another reason that this episodewas sort of a firestick in people's minds,
I think he hit a little tooclose to home. He mentioned the

(15:56):
COVID nineteen episode as well, beingsort of like a fire starter. And
I think a lot of these episodesthat you are listening to with Sword and
Scale, you're listening to a storythat is just so completely outside the realm
of what you think would happen.You know that people are so crazy,
the crimes are so violent, thatthey almost don't seem real. I know,

(16:18):
I certainly have that issue when wetalk about these shows. Yeah,
so you think it is written.So this was an episode that, especially
given the context of the time itwas released, there's just a lot it
was just hitting close to home already, some tensions about law enforcement and how
we interact with them on a communitylevel, and again, like the COVID

(16:41):
episode, there was maybe some implicationsabout how you should be thinking about the
world that we're living in, andpeople don't want to hear that. They
don't want to be told that whatthey're thinking isn't right or is two people.
I can't I can't remember the exactdate this came up, but people
were were was very wasn't going justA plus B equals C. So people

(17:03):
were having a big time problem withit. Um people were still fighting masks,
they were fighting. They didn't wantto be told things. So I
just I don't know, I don'tknow. I also think because it was
such a different show, it shookpeople's tree. Yeah, they were odd
that that would be the episode thatshakes people up. I know, right,

(17:25):
yeah, well this is yeah,yeah, but no God. So
I also think they were shocked thatMike didn't believe the exact same thing they
believed, because Mike's he's he's he'sin the Yeah. And then and they're
like, no, you're supposed toYou're supposed to think the same thing.

(17:48):
I think. Yeah, and wewe we got the blue flag. That
means we've we've you know, we'vegot that flag. So that means you
got to do that flag. Andthis is not saying that you backed that
flag. Yeah, makes sound likewe're back in like the weird like colonial
era of people just like having flagsand stuff. It's like kind of gone
that way. Everybody's got their ownflag out there. It's become more emblematic.

(18:10):
Yeah, it's not real anymore.Yeah, this is a weird time
we're living in. Mike called ita dystopian nightmare, which maybe a little
a little over the top. Idon't know about that, but it's it's
definitely strange time, that's for sure. A guy on one of the shows
I did this weekend was talking abouthow everything's off kilter because too many TV
remakes. That's what did it.It's just it's the time continuous. Yeah,

(18:32):
and then they bring back sex inthe City and everything falls apart.
That's so sad, I will say, given all the talk about how much
this episode upset people, I wasexpecting a lot meaner voicemails. There's only
one well there, no, no, there's there's like three, but oh
yeah, there's only one that's likesomewhat negative. All the other ones were

(18:53):
like really nice voicemails. How youhear like on the very end of the
show, well, I agreed withthe lady that teaches the class, you
know, I agreed with you shouldn'tknow this. It was a lot of
people saying that Mike was spot on, but he does throw in one of
an angry fan. Should we playit now? Now? All right,

(19:14):
get ready to be shocked and surprisedby the language in this Epp and Mike
longtime listener, currently a police officerout and on the West Coast. Just
god done listening or in the middleof listening episode when sixty eight and it's
a little disturbing with how you introducedit. Some good advice, but at

(19:38):
the same time, you know,being in law enforcement, it's hard enough
doing our job and somebody like youspouting off about not talking to the cops.
You know, it's good order advice. Well, what about those pedophiles?
What about those murderers? What aboutthose people who commit assaults? What
about their victims? He didn't dothem any justice, You didn't help them

(20:00):
at all. I might want torethink that next time you start thinking that
you're going to start changing people's minds. Um, I'll continue to listen,
but UH might want to rethink yourwhole goal here, maybe in life and

(20:22):
UH doing this podcast. Be neutral. Don't don't start leaning one way or
the other. Be neutral. There'sa lot to this voicemail. There is
a lot, I think. Butto me, my favorite part of the
whole thing, regardless of what you'reabout to say, is I do appreciate
that he says, I will continueto listen. I get like that.

(20:42):
I guess don't continue. He's like, I have all these feelings, but
god damn, your show is sogood. I'm gonna keep listening. Anyway.
Did you find it interesting that hesaid I'm a I'm currently a police
officer, as if he won't befor long. I'm not good at it
that he I don't understand somebody thatlistens to a show and tell somebody what

(21:07):
they should be saying. That's agood point. You know, you listen.
You when you listen to something,you listen to it, then you
go, that's an interesting you know, I don't you better think about what
you're saying. Your whole life goal, that's his Mike's whole life goal was

(21:29):
not to get murderers, rapists,and pedophiles out of prison. As he
was saying, yeah, you know, he wasn't going against their families.
He was saying the guy that didn'tdo it, that went in and talked
to the police because he thought itwas the right thing to do it.
Actually, there's a different way youshould do this. Yeah, And he

(21:51):
is a policeman. Should have said, hey, yeah, you know what,
you should do it the right wayif you're innocent. It was an
interesting part of the voicemail where heeven cops to the fact, oh punintended
cops of the fact that it wasgood advice, right, But also,
why would you tell people that,Well, he was the thing murders,

(22:12):
rapists and pedophiles are not going totell the truth. Well, yeah,
well that's what they Well you toldthem to lie. Yeah, how why
would you tell them to lie?I hate to tell you, they are
not telling the truth to beginning withSo I was, it was some very
interesting things, and I just Ididn't I didn't like him. He was

(22:33):
going at Mike kind of in aweird way, right A little bit.
Yeah, I think so it was. This is the one sort of negative
ish call that gets played, soobviously a piece of it struck a chord
with Mike. Do you think hewas a cop? I don't even think
he was a cop. That's reallyfunny too. I think I guess anyone
could call and leave a voicemail.I should do that because he could have

(22:55):
been a security guard. That's true. I'm currently uh, watch keeping watch
over the men's room bathroom in theCBS Radford lot, you know, keeping
watch over the men's bathroom, Andlet me tell you a lot of people
are dribbling on the floor. Youdon't want to know the kind of people
I've met Little Dick, no needbut little Dick man. Um. Yeah.

(23:19):
I think Mic responds to that kindof stuff the way I respond to
it. It fight. It sendsa like my hair on my book.
I'm like, that's not what Iwas trying to do. Yeah, why
are you so dumb? Well,thankfully this episode exists because it allowed him

(23:40):
to sort of expand on these issues. Sure did, and his buddy with
his fantastic voice, just comes flyingand yep, Charles Adams. Charles Adam,
as stated, was on a previousepisode of Sword and Scale. Rewind.
I forgot he was in the COVIDepisode, but I guess that was
when people had most recently heard hisvoice. I was like four episodes ago

(24:02):
or something like that. Something likethat. Yeah, And it was really
really interesting to listen to everybody talkingabout COVID, talking about the written House
trial, all these things back thenversus how different narratives have changed, and
how all these things are viewed nowthrough the lens of I don't know,

(24:22):
like a year or you know,maybe six months. I'm not sure exactly
how long ago this one was released, but I'm always fascinated. And that's
part of why I love doing theshow so much, is you get to
kind of hear back on that littlewindow in time that it really wasn't that
long ago. It wasn't that longago, but just enough that we know
more, right. I wonder Iwould love to get Charles Adams his take

(24:45):
on what the verdict was that wasexactly what I was thinking too. And
I'm sure we could listen to hishis iHeartRadio show. I'm sure he talked
just right now. I don't havehis number. No, we should call
him what we should? Let Wejust said, let's let's send him a
text message and not our some sortof message because he says, um,
he gives his Instagram away big Daddylaw or something. Oh yeah, so

(25:10):
we should send him a message andjust ask him and then one day we'll
just put it on here. Yeah, because I am curious too if his
opinion of it changed. I donot know him at all. I do
know Mark Garrigus, who is likean attorney, a defense attorney, very
famous celebrity defense attorney. Was heMichael Jackson's he was, and also Scott
Peterson's weekwn Oh, he did havea real tough week astle. He represented

(25:36):
Jesse Smollett. His firm did aswell. So that's a really, really
tough week for him. And bythe way, we are pre taping this
episode, so we're talking about wasa couple of months ago, or maybe
a month ago. But it's interestinghearing him. I was in Chicago when
that came down, and I wouldnot have Subway the whole week because oh
man, you're not getting shit kickbecause I need to buy a sandwich again.

(26:00):
Very strange times. Anyway, Ibring it up to say he does
a show called A Reasonable Doubt wherethey comment on legal cases. All the
names Adam Curley know, it's funny, strange, gather around. Let me
tell you guys another story. Um, but Mark, who represents some pretty
scummy people. It is interesting hisposition on these cases. It very rarely

(26:22):
shifts. You know, he'll heknows what he when he is broadcasting to
the world he feels is not goingto change. I don't want to speak
for him, but that's sort ofmy observation. But once believes he believes
I think so. And it's kindof interesting because that bringing it back to
the episode is what Mike is sayingthe detectives. Do you and I talked

(26:47):
on one sixty eight about why wouldthese interrogators be treating this person like this?
They've made that choice and they're gonnastick with it, right, I
thought, and I said out loudthat maybe it was like quotas, you
know, things that we weren't awareof. But what Mike brought up or
what Charles brought up maybe it wasCharlie's who brings it up in this episode,

(27:08):
which I hadn't really thought about,is just the idea that these police
officers have already made up their mindand this is their evidence. It led
them to this person, and sotherefore this must be right, right,
which is this is when they startusing the read yeah, read technique whatever

(27:30):
how interrogators that the training behind theinterrogation method. I know, I get
it that you Okay, let's goback one second. Where were we just
talking about? The guy told Miketo be neutral? Right? Yeah,
Well shouldn't you be neutral as acop? Oh? Yeah, see,

(27:52):
ye'd want you want the podcaster tobe fucking neutral, but you don't care
that the fucking cops are. Yeah, like blows my mind. I get
the same way with when when whetheryou like these politicians or not, when
they do crazy things and they don'treally get punished, but then you see
a comedian say something stupid and hegets he gets boned. I was like,

(28:14):
I'm like, where did the twisthappen? Where do we doesn't make
sense? Yeah. I will alsosay that I took umbrage with the idea
of being neutral because I feel likeSword and Scale and maybe people will think
I'm super naive for saying it,but I think it's a very neutral show
where it is telling you the factsof this case that happened. It's it's

(28:37):
journalistic reporting on the case, butit's gotta have it's gotta have an opinion.
Mike will say the things that areon his mind. I guess you
could say that's the show. Iguess that is part of the show,
as he's going to inject his thoughtinto it. But it's not a news
story. Yeah, he's not doinghe's not telling you the news. He's
telling you a story of his opinion. Yeah, all right, but he's

(29:00):
sound points being undone here. Buthe's got the facts in it. He's
got the facts in it. Buthe's got you know, he says,
I don't know what the fuck thisguy was up to? You know.
Yeah, like those kind of things. He gives his opinion, but it's
neutral. He lets you make yourown decision. I think that more often
than not, it's it's him saying, here's what we know. You make

(29:22):
your own decision if this was theright thing to do or not right,
which I think I don't I thinkthat falls. I know you blame the
victim every time, but well sure, but he lets you decide whether you
blame the victim or the perpetrator.By the way, let me just tease
next week's episode, Kevin Bacon murder. Oh my god, I got a
whole victim blaming thing lined up foryou for that one fault. I learned

(29:44):
some things that I can't unlearn.I can't wait to share that with you.
I'll have to wait for another week. Eight degrees of Bacon. That's
gonna be good. Uh. Youmentioned you mentioned the read technique. Would
you like to hear a robot?Nope, tell you about the retechnique.

(30:04):
I would love to hear when Mikesaid, here's goes. Here's a YouTube,
But I'm like, that's the worstYouTube. Can I get not get
more listeners? If this is whatthe bot can get? That man.
I don't know if you know this, but there's actually a sword and scale
robot rewind where somebody has transcribed ourshow. It's just two robot stock all

(30:30):
right. I captured a clip.We do not need to listen to more
than five seconds of it, butit is pretty funny. Anyway, what
is the ring technique. The reingtechnique is a method of interrogating suspects in
a crime. It is used bymany police forces around the world, and
is particularly popular in the United States. I'm stopping there. I love it
because he just sounds like a nasal, a nasally Ashburger's kid. It goes

(30:57):
on in the next one. It'sillegal in many countries, right, and
that's all that needs to be Yeah, I totally agree. Can I just
say, by the way, Mike, if you're listening, I'm available for
any vo that you need for sortscale. Please let me read that.
No, not go to a robot. I will fucking read the read method.

(31:18):
Okay, I could do it.I could do it dramatically however you
want. I'll do different takes.I'll do my version of Mike when they're
sending us. Oh, people reallydidn't like that last one. We gotta
keep that budget down on the usethat YouTube voice. Yeah. I also
was getting flashes of episode twenty,which you know as the puppeteer who ate

(31:41):
the baby. Soon as I heardit, I was just like, this
is episode twenty is what they sentme to audition again? Yeah, And
as soon as I had this.I just had just cold sweat lying in
bed. No, no, Ithought we were gonna have to do that
one. Yeah. Not the robotvoices, anything but coming at me.
They're all coming out. Now.I thought it was unique, not unique.

(32:02):
I thought it was an interesting thingto say that the read method is
perhaps more immoral than the good copBad cop technique. Now, I never
really thought of the good cop badcop technique as being immoral. I guess
yeah, because if you're doing itright, you got the good cop who

(32:25):
is scary, well, not thescary one, the bad scary. Yeah,
yeah, the good cop is.By the way, I got a
little freaky when Charles told the story. I went and I told him it's
twelve of your old daughter looked alittle bit older than you was. I'm
like, what the fuck is goingon here? First the robot voice,
now this? Yeah? Um,anyway, I just I don't know,

(32:49):
did you ever think of good copbad cop as really Like? I just
thought that was that's how you didThat's how you did it. Yeah,
Like, what if you're not goingto do the read method and you're not
going to do you can't waterboard,what are you supposed to do? Hey,
did you do it? Yeah,just like direct questioning it. All
right, well sorry, and hesay, didn't do it. We can

(33:09):
go now kiss closed? Did you? Um? They say, He says,
there's a lady that calls in andsays that thank god, the read
UH technique isn't one hundred percent.It's got to be uh as well as
something else has to be with it. Um, like some sort of evidence

(33:32):
has to be with it. Itcan't. You just can't say, hey,
I did it right, I believe, I believe that person, I
agree with that person, I agreethat was But at the same time,
you're like, well, how dohow do they actually get people to say
they did it they didn't do itand then find evidence that they did it,
Like it's there must be so likeslivery, It can't. It can't

(33:55):
be like these Oh my goodness,I said, like the guys in one
sixty eight were just assholes lazy,But there's got to be sometimes where it's
so close they're not being assholes,are lazy, they're really close to being
right, but they're not. Yeah, well, of course those would be

(34:15):
like the exception that proves the ruleor whatever, like I'm sure you're right
that has to happen, and Ijust feel really bad for those people,
you know, when it's that close. And actually, one of the interesting
statistics that Mike brings up, I'mreading here forty two to fifty five percent
of interrogated victims will confess, andthe question is are that many actually guilty?

(34:38):
Now, I again, it's likesort of the prejudice of the idea
of if you're sitting in that chair, you most likely did it. And
I'm not saying that's true or not, but that's the sort of mental prejudice
that you have to kind of considerof whether or not you think are fifty
percent of the people a coin tossof whether or not that person actually did

(35:01):
it. I would like to thinkthat closer to eighty percent of the people
who did it are being questioned correctly, right, you know, Like I
don't I don't want to think thateighty percent of them are innocent. I
don't believe that it's if it istrue, that's yeah. But I also

(35:23):
I also think it's got to dowith um socio economics of where that's kind
of happening. M you know,might be easier if everybody's just hanging out
at the same place and there asa murder happened R and you just kind
of grab one guy that's around thatmay look like the guy that did it.

(35:45):
Yeah. Well again, going backto one sixty eight, that was
sort of the point that they weresaying, was that even though there are
people who are in like bad socioeconomicareas or people who aren't mentally you know,
developed as others, those people arenot the only people that this impacts,
and it really does impact just yourregular everyday person as well, and

(36:07):
more than you think. I justI just I don't. I didn't mean
know what affect him. I justmean the chances of it happened, just
happened to be more. Yeah,in that when it's in a poorer area,
something else that we didn't get,something else that we didn't consider last
time we talked about this case.Thank god we talked about it again.
Glower bringing it makes it so mucheasier. Yeah, oh my god,

(36:28):
next week on one seventy, talkabout this again. That's right. Something
that is said in this episode though, is it's hard to see law enforcement
as the bad guys, which Ithought was something that I kind of agree
with it and kind of didn't agreewith you make your own reportation a reputation.

(36:51):
Yes, right, So if ifthe police department in my town keeps
doing bad things, they're seen asthe bad doors. Yeah. But when
you only have like a limited experiencewith somebody, you know, like you
what I mean, I'm sorry whenyou are when you are. Let's let's
go back to getting pulled over.Oh yeah, which is one of my

(37:13):
favorite pastors. I love it.I just rolled my window down a little
bit. You can't pull me over. You're having a I'm gonna call it
a flash interaction with a police officer. And it doesn't mean you flash your
junk at them, put your pantsback on. But what I'm saying is,
when you briefly meet that officer,I think most people's instinct is that

(37:35):
that guy's a police officer. He'snot a bad guy. Right now,
maybe we live in an era anhour people believe I self strongly in the
opposite. But to the point ofthis, this thing I'm bringing up from
the episode, it takes It's notnatural, at least for me, you
know, white kid in suburbia tojust automatically see a police officer and be

(37:57):
like that person has bad intentions.I I agree with you. I still
think most people that become police officersare good people. Have I had nothing
but great run ins with the police. No. I got pulled over one
day while riding my bike in myneighborhood. Yes, down the wrong way
of one way street. Heard allabout it. Yeah. And then another

(38:19):
time I was at the airport pickingup my sister and a parking cop went
off, I mean like you wouldn'tbelieve really, And I'm just looking at
him like, oh, okay,you don't want to be working today,
and your shit cop, and that'swhy they can put you on parking right.
Yeah. Yeah, So I've hadI've had that those situations. But
do I see a cop car andgo that guy inside of that car's a

(38:39):
fucking duck. No, That's notwhat I do, you know, right,
It's it's depends on the action.But I think I don't think my
life's in danger when it comes toa bad cop. Where there are people
out there that they know their licenseddanger because of a bad cop. Yeah,
And what I think this part ofthe episode is saying is when it

(39:02):
applies to false confessions, people likein a jury listening to this case,
are not prone to think that apolice officer was being bad and got a
false confession, They're way more likelyto be like, well, this was
just a confession that this very skilledpolice officer got out of somebody. And

(39:23):
so that's what makes it kind ofa complicated issue. Well, there are
some people that listen to Sword andScale that would flip out and think why
they would never do that. Yeah, I'm on this jury listening and you're
a police officer. You should beneutral. Mike points out, I shouldn't
say, he points out, doyou think you should be neutral? I

(39:45):
think there should be neutral, right, I mean I do think so for
the most part, there's there's alwaysuntil until Oh yeah, sure, just
yes, the universal until Yeah.Right, Well that was kind of gonna
say. It's like there's a contextfor everything. But I don't want officers
walking in with a fucking itchy triggerfinger, you know. But I do

(40:07):
think they should enter a dangerous situationon alert. I don't want them to
be neutral and just be like,we're walking into this this drug lord's warehouse,
like I would like some jo Yeah, like there's some realism right to
it. I want them to beprepared. But I do also think that
they should be able to entertain theidea of that these chairs suck. It's

(40:34):
kind off the circulation of leg I'mlike, what the fuck? Sorry,
people, I am not neutral aboutthese chairs we want. Don't say the
brand name. Uh, don't buythem. That's all I was I gonna
say. Especially if you have ifyou have a radio show in your closet,
you're not getting these chairs. Butme, I don't. I just

(41:00):
the episode before I just thought wasa great episode about giving people information they
didn't know. Was I thrilled aboutthe title? I don't know. I
don't care. It's a podcast aboutmurder. All the titles have something that
say, hey, I should listento this. Don't talk to the police

(41:21):
makes people listen to it. SoI don't get the uproar about it because
there was no information in there.Like Mike wasn't saying don't doubt the police,
no matter what they saying. He'ssaying, Hey, if somebody in
your house dies and you're there,you're gonna be assumed to maybe have done
something with it, so you mightwant to have somebody with you or not

(41:43):
talk to them. Yeah, thatis all he's saying, and he's not
saying, Hey, you know what, if you're gonna rate people, don't
talk to the cops. They alreadyknow that. They already fucking know that.
Yeah, but what about the victims. The victims, they shouldn't talk
to anybody else because they already did. Mike said in this step so that
he said, Oh, Mike,he spent a night in jail after getting
pulled over A little disappointed to him. He said that he cut an old

(42:06):
person off, and then they followedhim for seven miles and then cut two.
He's in prison. I don't knowwhat happened. He said he got
a dui. That's what I thought. Did he say that? I don't
even know if he even said that. I think he said. He just
sort of implied. I say,yeah, but I didn't understand why he
got a dui because he cut somebodyoff. I think it was road rage.
I think he had road rage.I mean, I want to just
theorize and speculate. I just seehim not having a horn in his car.

(42:30):
I just see him with a duckand squeezing the duck like a little
rubber ducky Ham, have you everspent a night in jail? No?
Me, neither I do not likewe're such a good boys. We all
have the good boys of this podcast. I bet you. I bet you
Stephanie Wilder crazy or whatever name.Oh no, don't say that. I

(42:52):
bet you she's been to jail.Um, have you ever been like just
arrested. No. I came veryvery close to it one and getting pulled
over. Why, I don't knowhow yeah? No, no, yeah
I did. But I was thinkingmore in my head of if I could
potentially get in trouble for this.I don't think I can. It's legal

(43:12):
in California. Now I had weedin my car. Oh yeah, you're
totally fine. And un remember CharlesAdams in Jamaica it was like that times
ten. How funny was that?Was that? I don't do anything that
you shouldn't do. I'm a legalperson. I wanted Jamaica and they brought
me a garbage bag full of partand I'm like, well, how long

(43:32):
were you there for? No?Oh? Man? Uh So, anyway,
I got pulled over and the officerwas like, and it was literally
this fast he went, I pulledyou over for speeding? What's that smell?
No, it was like one sentenceand I said, that's marijuana.
And he said, uh, youknow, where is it? And I

(43:54):
said in my mouth at the time, I had one of those they're called
it's called a one hitter, basicallylooks like a little metal cigarette and then
there's like a little tiny they calledbaseball bats or something. I never heard
that. Oh there you go,that's clever. Anyway. I was just
very honest with him. I waslike, it's right here. If I

(44:14):
could, I'll reach into my glovebox or whatever, I'll show it to
you. And he took it,took it from me, and he sailed
me a step out of the carand I sat on the street with my
life just flashing before my eyes.And he then said I get back in
the car. And as I gotback in the car, I heard him
close my trunk and he said,you should really take care of that smell.

(44:37):
Have a good night. Did hegive you back the one hitter?
And then when I got home andI opened up the trunk of the car,
he put the one hitter back inthe car. So that was very
nice of him. He did nothave to do that. That's the kind
of policing that should have should beout there. Yeah, it was.
It takes us to the next thingwhen when he starts talking about drugs and

(44:57):
stuff like that, Sure, let'stalk about it. What do you do
drugs? Well, I don't.I think that's the stupidest thing to say
something to somebody. Yeah, dare, Yeah, don't do drugs. Yeah,
what are drugs? Right? Becausethat's usually when you find out don't
do drugs. You don't even knowdrugs exist yet? Yeah, so you

(45:19):
fucks don't get blow jobs? Holyshit, those are great? Yeah,
and so are drugs. Um,I I'm kind of I think prohibition didn't
work. Oh are you fucking kiddingme? Not at all? Yeah,
So why try it with something else? Yeah? Tried? You know,

(45:43):
the definition of crazy doing the samething over and over again. That's exactly
what's going on. So let's gothrough it. Which drugs should be legal?
All of them? Well, thereyou go, folks, thanks for
listening. Good night, Okay,all of them? Heroin? Yes,
it's it's legal. Yeah, it'sa pain pill already here in California,

(46:04):
it basically is legal. Well,it's everywhere. It's like it's it's it's
in pain pills. Kids are gettingaddicted to it. It's sixteen years old
and then ending up on heroin becausewe're working cranking them out and they've never
felt anything like that in their lifeafter wrecking their knee while playing sports,
and they're the best athlete ever.And the benefit of legalizing it is to
what just to normalize it, tostop people from being prosecuted for bullshit charges,

(46:30):
Like what's the ultimate goal here?Because I see it, You're not
hiding it if it's legal, andyou're going to notice it and you may
give, say to a friend,you might do an intervention or something,
instead of not knowing that your frienddoes heroin, yeah, and finding out
that they oded, and you're like, what the fuck that's true now that
you're saying it, Because it is. Drug culture is very much like a

(46:52):
don't ask, don't test kind ofthing, and so you're right, it
is just so shocking when suddenly youhear about an overdose or something like that,
You're like, I didn't even knowthat person did drugs because everything is
shamed and you have to keep it. I'm gonna be on drugs because of
this fucking leg After this chair,you can move that, Mica, you
can stand, I'm gonna stand,yeah, just do it standing. I'm
just gonna fall down because my leg'sasleep. I'm sorry. No, Okay,

(47:19):
back to drugs. Yeah, no, I think it. I really
think that everything should be legal.I don't understand why people are making meth,
Like, what is how did weget there that people are making meth
in their in their garage? Yeah? Well, there's a historical documentary it's
called Breaking Bad. It's a sixseason documentary and it's all about that incredible

(47:44):
true story of a chemist who startsmaking meth to make money for his family
because he's dying of cancer. Right, it's really it's really entertaining, surprisingly,
But you're right. I don't know. I was stupid. I was
just I was totally thinking of thatshow and how fucking great it is.

(48:07):
I was just like, oh man, they made a lot of drugs,
um, but why? Why?Is just desperation? It's money? Like
No, I'm not saying why dopeople make I'm like, how did we
get there? Yeah? What drug? Like? What drug was there?
The people started recreating? Like thathad to be There's no way, there's
no way. Jesse, Bob Jessejust came up with that at a Walmart

(48:27):
one day. So what's he reproducing? Yeah? You know, I mean,
I just Jesse, I don't know, but my guess is something like
cocaine seems to be pretty speed.Speed. Yeah, they're, they're,
they're they've tried, they've tried toremake speed, and they've come up with
meth, which is worse than stores, which is kind of fentan al too.
Right, Yeah, I think sowhich has the worst business model ever?

(48:51):
Kill your clients. Yeah, I'mgonna take you down. You're gonna
try this once. People are worriedthat legalizing it will corrupt everybody, like
if cocaine. I mean, I'mnot saying I believe this. I know
I'm I'm angry about it. Yeah, now you're standing up. Oh god,
I'm not angry. But I thinkthat's that is generally the argument too,

(49:15):
Like why we don't legalize heroin becauseif we legalize it, then Bobby
Jill Jesse can raise a microphone bytwisting the goddamn thing that I'm like,
I'm not gonna do that. Sorry, people apologize. I just think people
are worried that if it's legal,Like, for example, marijuana is now

(49:37):
legal in California. Now there areway less cigarette smokers, but now there
are a whole lot of teenagers smokingmarijuana and parents aren't happy about that.
They don't they don't seem to shutthem down after when they're they're doing their
little hits off their little machine thattastes like bubblegum. Like they're not concerned
about that. It's bizarre the shitthat we chase down. Yeah, Like,

(50:02):
you know, you smoke pot whenyou're a kid. Now you're freaking
out about your kids smoking pot,But you're fine with them having this little
thing in their room that you can'tsmell and it just creates a smoke and
they're and they're getting high off andthey're getting addicted to nicotine is way more
addictive than most of these drugs.Yeah, yeah, I agree. What

(50:23):
do you think about that whole thing? And I think it's a New Zealand
where they're going to just keep raisingthe non smoking age. Have you heard
about this at all? No?That's interesting. Okay, So in New
Zealand, they're trying to outlaw smokingand the way that they're going to do
that is by saying if you arefifteen, you're not allowed to buy cigarettes,

(50:44):
and basically each year the following yearit will be if you're sixteen,
you can't. If you're seventeen,you can't, and the ideas that there'll
be a whole generation of people whoare never aged out of that restriction.
I believe that it's the same asalcohol, is the same as drugs.
You're gonna try it if you wantto try it, Yeah, I think

(51:07):
do I think it should be twentyone. Yeah, you shouldn't be able
to buy tobacco until you're twenty one. It's I honestly think you shouldn't be
able to twenty five until you're youknow, I think you're still informative in
twenty one to twenty five. You'restill doing things just because. Yeah,

(51:27):
the best parties of your life,Ian are gonna be from the ages of
eighteen to twenty three. But Ican't tell you. But I don't think
they need cigarettes like I don't.I don't see where cigarettes help any party.
Sure, you know, yeah,I'm not a cigarette smoker, but
I say no, it's got agood saying, but cigarettes. Uh.

(51:52):
But I do believe. I dobelieve you. I don't think making anything
illegal stops it. And I'm alsoI'm gonna put I'm gonna put this at
you Okay, everything's legal now,right. Those people that are bad,
what do they do now, becausethey don't suddenly get upstanding jobs, right

(52:12):
like? They do bad stuff becausethat's what they can do. Mm.
Yeah, there's always going to bea new envelope rush. So but it's
not a bad thing then, Sothen we shouldn't legalize things because now we're
just making that envelope harder, youknow what I mean, Like the more
we legalize, the crazier people haveto get to break the law. I

(52:35):
guess. So I'm just conducting athought experience. I don't. I don't,
I really don't. We're a podcastthat talks about murder, so we
cannot solve this, that's true.But I do should murder be legal?
No? Okay, No, Idon't know, just asking Godian, just
asking no, hold on, letme think about it. I agree it

(52:55):
you, I don't think. Ithink when he says, if you the
things you do on drugs are stilla crime, you can't blame drugs.
I also feel that's the same waywhen somebody does something and then they have
mental health problems, you can't blamethat for the bad things you've done to
another person. Yeah, so youknow, if you want to get high,

(53:21):
as if you want to get wrecked, have fun to do it.
But if you hurt somebody else,you're responsible. That's good. I think
that's fair. Yeah, it's thesame idea. Yeah, like you can't
you're not free from consequences. Saidsomething like that before. Yeah, when
it comes like freedom of speech,freedom of speech a speech, but not
freedom from consequence. Yes, Iget that. I can understand that on

(53:42):
a certain level. And then Ialso, you know, I want to
mention they bring up with the KyleRittenhouse thing, and I felt like those
four people went to something with thatthey knew there was going to be actions
and reactions, and they're guilty,all of them. They knew what was
going on there, and they I'mnot saying I stay home. Yeah,

(54:08):
don't take a gun to uh,And they are apparently more than just hated
took a gun there. You know, don't take a gun to something because
once you have something, there's goingto be a reaction. Yeah. Yeah,
the whole vigilante justice is UH.And that's interesting to talk about that
in the context of this episode wherewe're talking about whether or not cops can

(54:30):
do their job right correctly. Butif everyone's going to go out and be
a fucking vigilante, you know,I don't know that. That's not that's
not great, it's not it's hetalks about, we just need to be
able to well. I think peoplenot having guns helps your job more.
I think people get We know that, we know the statistics. Innocent people

(54:53):
get killed a lot more than youknow the people that they're getting saved.
Sure, yeah, I mean it'ssuch an insanely complicated issue. It's crazy,
it's it's wild. I want totalk about one other Nope, part
of this episode that was brought up. Damn, that's all I'm gonna say
about that. About forty minutes intothe episode, Charles Adams says the following,

(55:19):
you know I can trust on myshow where you the young woman that
was kidnapped and raped and murdered forwhile jogging in Arkansas last weekend. I
mean, there is true evil outthere. So naturally I thought, I
gotta look that shit up. Iwant to know what story that is,
because maybe we haven't done it onSword and Scale. Maybe it would be
a good Sword and Scale episode.Such a producer at all times, let

(55:40):
me tell you about that story.I'm gonna sit back down. You tell
me a tale, all right.First of all, the killer who who
did in fact kidnap and rape andmurder this poor woman who was a jogger.
This guy's name is Quake as anearthquake, quake Llewellen. He after

(56:04):
Dougluellen from the real People's Court.I was thinking Llewellen from no country from
from this guy, and this waspart of the headline. I didn't look
this part up any further. Anaward winning farmer, That's what killer is.
The killer is in fact an awardwinning farmer. He was He loves
to put things in the ground.Proven incompetent to stand trial. He was

(56:25):
competent at the time of his allegedcrimes. He's charged with capital murder,
rape, kidnapping, and abuse ofa corpse. Oh no, he did
it while she was dead. That'sthat's what that means. This woman was
last confirmed cited from a ups driverwhile she was jogging, and Llewellen,

(56:46):
who had known her prior to thecrime and had even joined a Facebook group
dedicated to finding the missing woman.He became a suspect because he went to
the police station to talk to theinvestigators about seeing her the afternoon that she
vanished, and what he said wasthat he was driving around checking his wells.

(57:07):
I guess he owns wells Jacob olWales. He spotted her walking along
a gravel road. He said hedrove past her, then turned his truck
around, and then when he turnedthe truck around, he didn't see her
anymore. Quote, I guess becausethe gravel road was still dusty. Then
he says that he thinks she mayhave crossed the road, at which point

(57:29):
he struck her with this truck.Oh shit, Now, I don't know
if that's true. That reminds mea lot of somebody not that we know
from the show. Yeah, yeah, we've covered on this show before.
Ian's best friend, my god,my buddy used to turn around and hit
people with this car. So thisguy eventually confessed the crime. He admitted

(57:51):
that he later buried her in arice field, and then he went back
to order what rice field? Andthey don't sounded like that doesn't sound like
award winning. He went back towork, can grow Rice, went home,
had supper to bed, and hisdad noticed he was acting strange,
and that's why he told him togo to the police to talk about it.
He said everything was just a blur. Um. He didn't He just

(58:15):
knows that he didn't kill her onpurpose. He fucked her on purpose,
but not kill her on purpose.At the time of his arrest, he
and his wife were raising her childrenfull time, but his wife has since
filed for a divorce no doubt.In October of twenty twenty, he pled
not guilty to charges of kidnapping,capital murder, abuse of corpse, but
in October of twenty twenty one pledguilty yes. Prior to that plea,

(58:40):
The prosecutors say that had he beenconvicted of capital murder, they would have
sought the death penalty. Now it'sjust life in prison without parole. I
wonder why they didn't go for umlike the death penalty even though he admitted
it. Yeah, it's got aplea deal. Oh, he pleaded.
I think I'd say guilty. Soanyway, I just thought that was kind

(59:02):
of a guild story. I hadnot heard anything about that one. He
just kind of like skipped over too. It was just like, well,
you know, there's a girl inarcs and a girl by that guy,
which completely murderer. Anyways, let'sget back to me getting high in Jamaica.
Yeah exactly, but I thought thatRewan listeners might want to know the
story that he was alluding to.That might be a good story for you
guys. Yeah, it could behome to talk about too. I will

(59:22):
say, at least for the episodesthat I've worked on, if there's no
trial, it's way harder to findlike really good audio. I personally,
you can maybe tell episodes I've workedon, not that I've worked on that
many, but the ones that Ihave, I got lots of juicy core
audio because that's when the people arereally given their first person testimony of like
what happened, and that's where youget the really juicy stuff. So it's

(59:43):
got to be for us to dothese episodes that it has to be an
ending. No, not necessarily.I mean there's been there's one. There's
in Canada. There's Highway sixteen,the Highway of Tears. It's just all
these girls that go missing on it, like still to this day, to
this day, you guys should checkthat out. Yeah, that's yeah,
I'll be sure to drive kind ofNo, no, don't drive there,

(01:00:05):
go up, get yourself a girl. We have to laugh at this people.
If you don't laugh at at Jesus, it just becomes said, well,
let's try to wrap it up here. How do we how do we
how do we fix it? In? How do we fix it? I
world of talking or not talking tocops? I think there's there's rules,

(01:00:29):
you know. I hate to sayit, there's rules on both sides,
and you got to know your rights, and um, they should people should
know. And I think what hewas saying was don't talk to cops unless
you know what you're what you're doing. Yeah, he wasn't saying don't talk
to cops even when if they askyou, hey, do you know where
the nearest burger king is? Youknow who was just saying? So I

(01:00:51):
think be smart, don't murder somebody. Yeah. I think even more than
that, though, we need toall stop being so actionary. You know
this is this episode has become alarger metaphor for our country way and not
being able to have meaningful conversations andtalking about things. Everybody is just so

(01:01:14):
set in their own mind as towhat's right and what's wrong, and everyone
has been convinced that the other sideis morally evil and wrong and has that
got anything to do with instant gratificationthat way, that way as a society
that we like we everything we getanswered media. I mean, especially with

(01:01:35):
social media being as immediate as itis, everybody wants to like be the
first one to comment on a storyor to like share their perspective or you
know, speak their truth. Iput that in air quotes, but their
truth th r But I don't know. I think I have been trying to

(01:01:55):
have neutral conversations with people. It'svery difficult. You know, just listen,
right, that's a good thing.Just listen. If you listen,
to listen more and you can stormout right after they're done. Sure,
but you know, you listen,you will find something about somebody if you

(01:02:15):
listen. Um, I had.I was doing a show in Chicago and
there was a guy guy in thecrowd and I said, what do you
do? And he said, Iwork in politics. I said, who
do you work for? You wouldn'ttell me. And at the end of
the show he came up and hesaid, I was Margie Taylor Greens.
I ran her her campaign. Isaid, well, you're a bad man,

(01:02:39):
I said, but you know,I said, you seem like a
nice guy. It is, youknow, I know a jo'urn you were
in the business, you know whatever. Yeah, you know, it's just
it's weird. You're not that person. So I think you listen to people
and there's we all have different sides, and uh, they're they're bad things
happen to people, and you know, it's just it's just those words that

(01:03:04):
he talks about in it, likethose trigger words that people use. Don't
let them trigger you, you know, and and make them make them if
somebody says something that's crazy, makethem explain it. Sure, yeah,
don't need free to ask a followup question like I want to know why
you think JFK Junior is coming backto this grassy knoll? Why would you

(01:03:30):
land the plane here? Not inMartha's vineyard? This makes no sense at
all. Sure, so, well, that's a good not to go out
on Ian Where can people find you? I don't get my shit? Bind
me on ianbag dot com, sirian Bag on Twitter, Ian Bag on
Instagram, and now comedian ian Bagon TikTok. I'm doing the TikTok.

(01:03:52):
If you want to get on theTikTok nice. I do some stupid things
on there. I do a littledancing. No, I don't know any
dance. You should. I respondto people's videos like the last one I
did was this guy made this concoctionand his cup holder in his car that
turned into foam that cleans everything up, and I just look blow. Well,

(01:04:15):
I'm on Twitter and Matt Fondeler.You can spell that however you like,
but hopefully spell it right. That'sall you reach me. I'm on
another podcast. What's it about?Well, it's about everything. Really,
I love that a little bit ofeverything. It's called the Water Quick.
It's fantastic. Thank you. We'regonna have you back on soon. Oh
so again on people, I tellthem that's good. We would love to
hear from you. Guys. Pleasegive us a nice review, share the

(01:04:36):
show with your friends. If welike it, send us a tweet.
But you know, above all,listen to these words. Don't be a
douche bag sort of scale. Wewould is a production of income grew any

(01:05:00):
media. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a five star rating and
a glowing review. No criticism please, it hurts our feelings. Be sure
to tell your friends about us,but not your family or co workers,
because I'll think you're weird. Okay, that's it. Let's tell next time.
Don't be a douchebag.