June 5, 2023 • 7 mins
Greens MP and campaigner for Kathleen Folbigg, Sue Higginson, joins Jonesy & Amanda to chat about the 55-year-old's release, 20 years after she was imprisoned for killing her four children.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jersey and Amanda jam nation Well.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Last week Green's spokesperson for Justice, Sue Higginson, introduced a
motion calling on Attorney General Michael Daily to pardon Kathleen Folbig.
Yesterday it was done. The fifty five year old who
was jailed for two decades for the murder of her
four children walked free after there was evidence of reasonable
possibility that three of those children died of natural causes.
(00:24):
An extraordinary day for science, an extraordinary day for justice.
Sue Higginson joins us.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Now, Hello, Sue, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
How did you first get involved in this case? How
did you become a champion here?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Look I'm not a champion, but oh yes, I think
you are. No.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
I got involved quite recently, to be frank h Like,
I heard about this like every other Australian over the years.
But I got involved at the level of detail of
which I know now only a couple of months ago.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
It was actually just after the election when I became
the portfolio holder for the Greens for Justice.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I looked at the inquiry, I looked at the evidence.
I read the thousands of pages of this inquiry. The
former inquiry went back to media articles and I couldn't
believe that we were sitting all of us on top
of all of that. Notwithstanding there was clear evidence now
(01:21):
of reasonable doubt, and there was a woman still languishing
in a prison, and nobody other than her champions, nobody
in the position of power, were actually doing the right thing.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And that's when I contacted the Attorney General.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I made pleas to him directly. I wrote letters to him,
I wrote letters to the Premiere. I contacted the Premier's
chief of staff, and then I put a motion and
noticed of motion to the Parliament last week.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
And this genetic come to G one one four, our gene.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
That was pretty much discovered in twenty twenty one as
far as a contributing factor.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Look, actually, the more I've looked, the more I realize
it really is. You know, those medical scientific experts who
were speaking publicly back then in twenty twenty one. I
think there was even an article of one of the
experts at A and U saying we've found the cause
(02:20):
of death of two of Kathleen Folbiggs's babies.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
All the way back.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Then, as you rightly point out, that should have been
more than an alarm bell to us that as lawyers
I mean that's.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
The other thing.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Look, I have the advantage of having a law background.
I've been a practically lawyer for decades. But as soon
as I started putting these pieces together, that's when I realized, oh, no,
we're holding somebody in prison wrongfully.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And let's remember, our entire criminal.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Justice system is based on the very foundation that nobody
should have their liberty or freedom taken and less they're
charged and convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Its extraordinary day yesterday to see Kathleen released to the
home of her great friend and another wonderful champion, Tracy.
Tracy Chapman. Have you spoken to either of them.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I've spoken to Kathleen's lawyer. I've left the women. I'll
catch up with them today. But I mean last night,
when I was getting messages that you know, cups of tea, pizzas, pajamas, hugs, tears, laugh.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
I just yeah, I mean, I think.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
We were all in joyous amounts of tears with the
whole scenario.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It's hard to night. Kids they were like young.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
It felt like they were you know, it felt like
there was young girls at the party.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
That's how it felt from where I was.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Oh, it's hard to imagine though, what the last twenty
years have been like that there's Kathleen mourning her children,
confused by why they've passed away, knowing she wasn't responsible
in solitary can finement for six years. It's hard to
not have your heart bleed for her.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I don't think any of us can really really imagine
or contemplate. I think that, you know, a lot of
us try to put our feet in those shoes and really.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Have a go.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
But you know, and then you go and make your
own cup of tea, or then you go and walk
outside into the sunshine, or then you go and pick
up your own book, or you jump in your own bed,
you know. I mean that's what on Saturday morning, when
I wasn't aware, you know, we'd had the notice of
motion debate. The Attorney General and the current government seem
to have bunkered down on their position.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
No, we're going to wait. We're gonna wait. We're going
to wait for the.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Final writing of the former Chief Justice of New South
Wales his findings in writing We're going to wait. On
Saturday morning, I remember just waking up in my own
bed and feeling these waves of absolute fury and frustration
and despair and sadness. And yet this morning I woke
(05:01):
up differently. For the it felt very different.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And it's going to take some time for Kathleen. She
was branded Australia's worst serial killer in a family actually
for all those years.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
It's going to take a long time for people, the
public to come to the realization that she is indeed innocent.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Look what I mean, really, we've got to take a long,
hard look at you know, what did happen, how that happened.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
There's lessons for all of us in this. You know,
she was called a monster. As you say, I mean this.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
I've compared this to the Lindy Chamberlain case and it
is it is.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
In fact, in many.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Ways, this case is far worse and we did far
more deeper and greater, longer term wrongs. We've got to
remember there was never any actual evidence whatsoever around the
murder or the manslaughter or the harm of those children.
It was Kathleen's conviction was one hundred percent based on tendency,
(05:58):
coincidental evidence, and legal theories that have long been discredited.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
And that we now know we're very.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Gendered, anti sort of mother type of legal theories. You know,
one child dying, maybe sudden infant death syndrome. To goodness, gracious,
three or four, you've got a murderous mother that wasn't
coping on your hands.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
That's all been discredited for a long time now.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
And the diary entries to what new mother isn't having
a terrible time and saying, I wish that's.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
And also you look at her her history of a
father murders her mother. You know, she's put into foster
hoims like her whole life, you see, and then.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
You wonder, you know, no, wonder she doesn't. She didn't
respond emotionally same as Lindy in the way that we
expected her to, and we punished her for that.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Too, exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I mean, this is not the perfect mother, not the
ex at least you know now and as we heard
in the inquiry with the psychological and psychiatric expert evidence,
now at least we have much deeper understanding around mothers.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
None of us have perfect mothers.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Were not those polar Kodak sandwich making perfect women.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Are we We're mothers? You know?
Speaker 4 (07:10):
So yeah, what a fantastic day to day and Kathleen
is free, and we do we need to look at
our legal processes.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We need to look. It was very difficult.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
For Kathleen to get to this point and her legal team,
I mean, my goodness, Rannie Rego, a solicitor who has
worked for years fully pro bono, around the clock with
lawyers telling her, oh, what are you doing.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
You're wasting your time, this will never come to pass.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And tonight, you know, last night they were united in
freedom together.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
That's great, brilliant.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So thank you for joining us this morning. Si Higgins
and Greens MP.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Good work, thank you, Sue
Speaker 4 (07:51):
My pleasure, and good work all those people and champions
out there.
Jersey and Amanda jam nation Well.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Last week Green's spokesperson for Justice, Sue Higginson, introduced a
motion calling on Attorney General Michael Daily to pardon Kathleen Folbig.
Yesterday it was done. The fifty five year old who
was jailed for two decades for the murder of her
four children walked free after there was evidence of reasonable
possibility that three of those children died of natural causes.
(00:24):
An extraordinary day for science, an extraordinary day for justice.
Sue Higginson joins us.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Now, Hello, Sue, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
How did you first get involved in this case? How
did you become a champion here?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Look I'm not a champion, but oh yes, I think
you are. No.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
I got involved quite recently, to be frank h Like,
I heard about this like every other Australian over the years.
But I got involved at the level of detail of
which I know now only a couple of months ago.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
It was actually just after the election when I became
the portfolio holder for the Greens for Justice.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I looked at the inquiry, I looked at the evidence.
I read the thousands of pages of this inquiry. The
former inquiry went back to media articles and I couldn't
believe that we were sitting all of us on top
of all of that. Notwithstanding there was clear evidence now
(01:21):
of reasonable doubt, and there was a woman still languishing
in a prison, and nobody other than her champions, nobody
in the position of power, were actually doing the right thing.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And that's when I contacted the Attorney General.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I made pleas to him directly. I wrote letters to him,
I wrote letters to the Premiere. I contacted the Premier's
chief of staff, and then I put a motion and
noticed of motion to the Parliament last week.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
And this genetic come to G one one four, our gene.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
That was pretty much discovered in twenty twenty one as
far as a contributing factor.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Look, actually, the more I've looked, the more I realize
it really is. You know, those medical scientific experts who
were speaking publicly back then in twenty twenty one. I
think there was even an article of one of the
experts at A and U saying we've found the cause
(02:20):
of death of two of Kathleen Folbiggs's babies.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
All the way back.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Then, as you rightly point out, that should have been
more than an alarm bell to us that as lawyers
I mean that's.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
The other thing.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Look, I have the advantage of having a law background.
I've been a practically lawyer for decades. But as soon
as I started putting these pieces together, that's when I realized, oh, no,
we're holding somebody in prison wrongfully.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And let's remember, our entire criminal.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Justice system is based on the very foundation that nobody
should have their liberty or freedom taken and less they're
charged and convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Its extraordinary day yesterday to see Kathleen released to the
home of her great friend and another wonderful champion, Tracy.
Tracy Chapman. Have you spoken to either of them.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I've spoken to Kathleen's lawyer. I've left the women. I'll
catch up with them today. But I mean last night,
when I was getting messages that you know, cups of tea, pizzas, pajamas, hugs, tears, laugh.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
I just yeah, I mean, I think.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
We were all in joyous amounts of tears with the
whole scenario.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It's hard to night. Kids they were like young.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
It felt like they were you know, it felt like
there was young girls at the party.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
That's how it felt from where I was.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Oh, it's hard to imagine though, what the last twenty
years have been like that there's Kathleen mourning her children,
confused by why they've passed away, knowing she wasn't responsible
in solitary can finement for six years. It's hard to
not have your heart bleed for her.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I don't think any of us can really really imagine
or contemplate. I think that, you know, a lot of
us try to put our feet in those shoes and really.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Have a go.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
But you know, and then you go and make your
own cup of tea, or then you go and walk
outside into the sunshine, or then you go and pick
up your own book, or you jump in your own bed,
you know. I mean that's what on Saturday morning, when
I wasn't aware, you know, we'd had the notice of
motion debate. The Attorney General and the current government seem
to have bunkered down on their position.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
No, we're going to wait. We're gonna wait. We're going
to wait for the.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Final writing of the former Chief Justice of New South
Wales his findings in writing We're going to wait. On
Saturday morning, I remember just waking up in my own
bed and feeling these waves of absolute fury and frustration
and despair and sadness. And yet this morning I woke
(05:01):
up differently. For the it felt very different.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And it's going to take some time for Kathleen. She
was branded Australia's worst serial killer in a family actually
for all those years.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
It's going to take a long time for people, the
public to come to the realization that she is indeed innocent.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Look what I mean, really, we've got to take a long,
hard look at you know, what did happen, how that happened.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
There's lessons for all of us in this. You know,
she was called a monster. As you say, I mean this.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
I've compared this to the Lindy Chamberlain case and it
is it is.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
In fact, in many.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Ways, this case is far worse and we did far
more deeper and greater, longer term wrongs. We've got to
remember there was never any actual evidence whatsoever around the
murder or the manslaughter or the harm of those children.
It was Kathleen's conviction was one hundred percent based on tendency,
(05:58):
coincidental evidence, and legal theories that have long been discredited.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
And that we now know we're very.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Gendered, anti sort of mother type of legal theories. You know,
one child dying, maybe sudden infant death syndrome. To goodness, gracious,
three or four, you've got a murderous mother that wasn't
coping on your hands.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
That's all been discredited for a long time now.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
And the diary entries to what new mother isn't having
a terrible time and saying, I wish that's.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
And also you look at her her history of a
father murders her mother. You know, she's put into foster
hoims like her whole life, you see, and then.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
You wonder, you know, no, wonder she doesn't. She didn't
respond emotionally same as Lindy in the way that we
expected her to, and we punished her for that.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Too, exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I mean, this is not the perfect mother, not the
ex at least you know now and as we heard
in the inquiry with the psychological and psychiatric expert evidence,
now at least we have much deeper understanding around mothers.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
None of us have perfect mothers.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Were not those polar Kodak sandwich making perfect women.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Are we We're mothers? You know?
Speaker 4 (07:10):
So yeah, what a fantastic day to day and Kathleen
is free, and we do we need to look at
our legal processes.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We need to look. It was very difficult.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
For Kathleen to get to this point and her legal team,
I mean, my goodness, Rannie Rego, a solicitor who has
worked for years fully pro bono, around the clock with
lawyers telling her, oh, what are you doing.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
You're wasting your time, this will never come to pass.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And tonight, you know, last night they were united in
freedom together.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
That's great, brilliant.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So thank you for joining us this morning. Si Higgins
and Greens MP.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Good work, thank you, Sue
Speaker 4 (07:51):
My pleasure, and good work all those people and champions
out there.
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