May 7, 2024 • 35 mins
Colin can't believe the Knicks continue to win games in the postseason despite their perceived lack of talent. He also ranks his top 10 players remaining in the NBA playoffs. Plus, Nick Wright from First Things First joins the show to explain why the reigning champion Nuggets could be in real trouble
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
All Right, here we go. It is a Tuesday live
in LA. It's the Herd wherever you may be and
however you may be listening.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thanks for Megan. How's part of your day? Nick Wright?
In one hour?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Captivating to watch a team in New York City be
an underdog. You do not get that very much. The
media capital of North America, one of the media capitals
of the world, if not the world. From Jmac, the
Villanova guys or ninety two of their points. The Villanova
(01:03):
guys like shot sixty percent from the field. Villanova guy's rolls,
glue guys, they're now carrying the knicks in the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
We're getting close to the point where they're not gonna
want to trade any of the villain You can't break
up this chemistry.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
There's definitely something there.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Oh yeah, if you go after Kevin Duraid, you can't
give up the villanova guy.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Sorry, yeah, it's you know, I was thinking about this.
You'll see things like in society sometimes, like I'll give
you an example, the fidget spinner. It gets really really hot,
like it's this and you're thinking yourself, how is this
so popular? This is not sustainable? There's no there there.
Like the Rubik's cube was kind of math. I got that,
but like the fidget spinner, Well, it can't be this
(01:43):
popular this long. Then eventually it drives up and nobody cares.
And that's sort of how I think about the New
York Knicks. How long can Jalen Brunson play like Michael Jordan.
He's now scored over forty points in four straight games,
like Jerry West has done it. Bernard King, Michael Jordan
and Jalen in a second round pick? How long can
Josh Hart double his offensive numbers in his career? He's
(02:04):
a bounce around the league guy. Now he's like a
rebounding Zelot and a scoring machine. The Knicks had four
guys play over forty minutes. How long can that last?
They have no bench. They were outscored last night forty
six to three, and they keep winning. It's the NBA's
version of the fidget spinner. When it won't it be popular,
(02:25):
When won't it work? How long is it sustainable?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Again?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Last night, no bench, Josh Hart doubling his output, never
coming off the floor. Now now, it's not like they
don't deserve it. Excellent fourth quarter offense, second in the playoffs,
good all year effort, excellent rebounding, excellent defense, committed offensively.
(02:51):
They're a very intentional team. They have limitations, but they
have very few bad possessions in the fourth quarter. They
come down their intentional, very good late game possessions, and
that you see teams all the time just waste possessions.
Lakers sometimes lead the league in that just wasted possessions.
You don't get any of those with the knicks in
(03:12):
the fourth quarter. It feels like every time they come down. Hustle, effort, dedication, rebounding,
it's an intentional possession, but generally sorry Nick fans, generally
no bench. One dominant score from the second round, a
bunch of Villanova guys and hustle and effort generally have
a ceiling. We knew the Knicks hustle and effort would
(03:35):
matter in the regular season if you play hard, you know,
in forty games in the NBA, if you have any talent,
there's so much load management, so many teams tanking. I'm
not surprised in the really bad East. They were a
good regular season team. And some of this is the
eastings Indiana is a number six seed.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
The East is bad.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Tyrese Haliburton, he's not a star, he's got good handles.
He got six points last night. Yles Turner was their offense.
So but it's a fun team, you know, it's it's
it's a in the East. It's a deserving team. Their
efforts incredible. But they've won five games this postseason, five
and they've outscored opponents in the playoffs combined by five
(04:18):
total points.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
So when will it end? Will it end?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
The team that seems to play hard every possession and
every night, with some offensive limitations, took another series lead,
and here was the coach after.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
I just think the way they work that they've invested
a lot into the season, and they put a lot
into each and every day. So I think when you
make that commitment to each other You're not going to
give in. You're going to keep fighting, and that's there's
great fight and we know we're short handed, so that's
our way. Our way is by we have to play
(04:56):
real hard.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah that they do so out the story is the
defending champs will not be repeat champs that series. It's over.
Denver's got no answers in the first half. They were
struggling just to get shots off. And I was thinking
about this last night watching is the NBA and this
(05:19):
is not necessarily a bad thing for the league, but
the ratings will go down. Is the NBA becoming the
NBA of the seventies, where every year you have a
different team. So if you go to the last five
NBA champs, Nuggets, Warriors, Raptors, Lakers, Bucks, this year, t Wolves,
(05:40):
I mean eight of the ten teams that have been
in finals in the last five years have been different.
So that's very much the NBA. I grew up with
the Blazers, the Sixers, the Lakers, maybe a Celtics, Washington,
Golden State, New York. It was a different team every year.
So we thought Denver was a little bit different because
(06:04):
Jokish was unstoppable, and then suddenly he wasn't because Minnesota,
even without Gobert last night, is so relentless defensively. I
mean I'm sitting there watching in the second quarter. I mean,
Denver couldn't get shots, and they were a good defensive
team all year. We're not you know, I watched enough
Minnesota all year. They're a good defensive team. But now
(06:26):
Ant is not only dynamic, but he is super efficient,
nazred playing with a ton of confidence, and their defense,
which was good, is now playing with a playoff fever pitch,
and it's just relentless. And let's be honest about Denver.
They were not great all season. I mean, they trailed
(06:47):
the Lakers for seventy percent of that series, and the
Lakers sneak into the playoffs. They've been a good clutch
time team, but they play close with average opponents a
lot this year. And what I'm watching feels like what
I'm watching is two talented teams, but one with Ant
is super hungry, relentless, aggressive and playing like an underdog,
(07:15):
and the other team, Denver, is lethargic, start slow, now
plays from too far behind, is a little arrogant, is
a little listless, and by the time they look up,
they trail by sixteen to a team that's got equal
or better talent. So in both games, Denver has tried
(07:35):
to sort of ease into the game.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
You can do that with the Lakers.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You can't do that with a player like Ant, who
is the best player on the floor, knows he's the
best player on the floor. Denver's got until Friday to
figure this out. But I'm watching what you're watching, and
you know it's not a styles make fights thing. I
watch these two play in the regular season, late in
the regular season that we're very even. But can you
(08:03):
go from apathetic to relentless? That's Denver because what I'm
seeing from Minnesota is this is a a little bit
like the Knicks with a lot more talent, Babe. They're
more or the same talent, and they want it much more,
and they're very efficient and they know what they are
and their starring Ant is playing now not just dynamic basketball, smart,
(08:27):
no bad shots. It's just I think Denver's cooked. I
think it's over and here's aunt after.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
We're doing a great job of just trying to just
pick them up early, like put pressure on everybody, a
pressure to ball, pressure to pass, or don't let it,
don't don't let it. Cat do a great job of
just pressuring the entry pass, don't let it be easy,
nas front and cal front and trying to get our
hands on everything, touching, pushing, being physical.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I'm watching that game last night in the first half,
and I don't think I've ever seen a talented NBA
team struggle to get into their offense like that. They
couldn't get into their offense. That's like an outmatched college team.
I mean, Yukon beat teams in the tournament and it
was clearly the best team. People could get into their offense.
I mean Denver couldn't get into it. Here's Charles Barkley.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
We saw one of the best defensive teams I've ever seen.
You know, the stats don't lie. They are incredible defensively.
You talk about what even Rudy's not there, but on
the perimeter, their guarding everything led by ant Man, their
best player is playing great defense, and the rest of
those perimeter players, even with Dow Rudy Man, this is
(09:42):
one of the best defensive teams I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, you were texting me last night, like there are
series that start out to oh, but you feel like, Oh,
this team has a they need a couple of days off.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I watched that and I'm like, yeah, and I think again,
I I think we're falling into a seventies NBA. We're
gonna have potentially our sixth different champion, either Boston or
a Minnesota maybe an oksee. I don't think the Knicks
are a championship team, but I think we're gonna have
the six different champion in six years. It didn't bother me,
(10:16):
but the dynasty's over. We had the Heatles, we had
the Warriors. Those are done, and I think we're going
into a decade of new team every year because I
thought I thought Denver had a lot of San Antonio
feel to it. But Ant is exploding as a player.
And I don't know how Minnesota moves Cat because I
(10:38):
think there's been a lot of talk all year about
you can move Carl Anthony Towns.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I'm watching the last night.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
He gets a lot of buckets. He gets a lot
of buckets, and this will disallow a lot of glomming
on just to Ant. If you have Carl Anthony Towns,
that can get you twenty four a night. So your
impression of what you watched, Yeah, Nuggets are done.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I think obviously the Timberwolves are.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
They're fascinating because of the way they're built, with a
lot of role players in length.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
But Colin, the NBA has to be careful what they
ask for. Oh, we don't want these super teams. They
got to make these guys pay the luxury tax, all right.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yeah, you remember what the seventies in the NBA was like, Yeah,
neither's anyone else.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Also, they're going to Amazon with their new contract.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
It's fine.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
A lot of people aren't gonna pay for that, so
you're gonna lose big chunks of your audience there. So
what keeps you alive is the NFL can go occasionally
to streaming. You notice who the NFL put on streaming,
Patrick Mahomes. Yeah, the NFL put yeah Patrick Mahomes. And
streaming you can draw an audience. It's smaller than broadcast TV,
but it's an audience, and it's also the NFL, which
(11:45):
is in its own galaxy.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
How many people turned on the game last night, We're like,
who's Anthony Edwards again? Honestly, I love Anthony Edwards. Force
casters we know it, were into it, but like casual
fans are like, oh the Nuggets are in trouble, they're
losing to who Anthony Edwards and Jaden McDaniel's people don't
know these guys, and it's gonna take some time and listen,
you know we like the NBA. We're gonna watch right, yeah,
but are are these teams gonna rope in the casual We.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Were talking about this morning in the meeting, I said,
if you got to a Minnesota Celtics final, even with
the Boston brand, I'd be really fascinated to watch the
numbers if it was an OKC Boston. I mean, it's
not gonna happen, but you can say what you want.
Is football is not market or player beholden, Baseball is
(12:33):
NBA really is?
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And we don't care so much about the numbers for
the game, but like the numbers for our show, or
people like tuning ag in to hear US talk Minnesota
Oka se or would they rather hear another Jets topic
for fifteen minutes because we can do that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I mean I can do that all day, well you can.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I can't be sure to catch live editions of the
Herd weekdays and noon eastern non am Pacific on Fox
Sports Radio FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
AnyWho.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So I was thinking about this, Here's who's out of
the play ploffs. These are all out of These are
great players, Lebron, Steph Katie Mbad Kawhi, Dame, James Harden,
Jimmy Butler, the old Heads, they're all out of the playoffs.
So if I said, who are the ten best players
right now in the playoffs, you know, based on production,
(13:18):
and here's my ten best players. So Luca would be
number one. He's nearly averaging a thirty point triple double. Okay,
he's number one. Number two is Yokich. He's nearly averaging
a triple double, and he leads the playoffs in rebounds
and assists. Number three would be Aunt Edwards, certainly the
(13:38):
most watchable player, the only player averaging thirty plus on
at least fifty percent shooting in the playoffs. So his
efficiency has really clicked against better teams. That's a great sign.
Number four Jalen Brunson. He leads the NBA in scoring.
His first step is so fast, a highest usage rate
(14:00):
by anybody in the playoffs. So big minutes big production.
Number five would be Donovan Mitchell, who was second in
points score to Brunson and second to Brunson in usage.
Minute six, I would get to Jason Tatum. He's the
third leading scorer in the playoffs and he also leads
the Celtics in rebounds and plus minus. Seven would be
(14:23):
Sga from Oklahoma City. Although his scoring and assist numbers
have gone down from the regular season, he's at seven.
At eight would be Kyrie Irving, who's been great, but
a lot of it's been in the second half, but
he has been great. He's a complete defensive liability that matters.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Tatum is not.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Anthony Edwards is not even Luca now plays some defense.
Number nine would be Jamal Murray, who tends to get
better as the game goes on, but his team's in
an two hole and he's not.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Getting it done right now.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Number ten would be Jalen Brown, who's shooting about thirty
two sent from three point reigns. Not great, Not much
I can take from the Miami series, but right now,
that would be the ten best players. And here's why
it's interesting. I don't feel bad saying this that Jason
Tatum is number six, So he's not as dominant as Jokic,
(15:16):
he's not as dynamic as Aunt, and he's not as
consistently prodigious offensively as a Donovan Mitchell or a Jalen Brunson.
The MAVs are Luca. I mean, even despite Kyrie, the
MAVs are a Luca denver Is Jokic. The Celtics aren't
Jason Tatum. And that's not a criticism. But what's interesting
is they were seven and one this year without Tatum.
(15:38):
And what's really interesting is Tatum's numbers went down this year,
his scoring in his shots per game, and the team
got better. And when he missed the eight games this year,
the Celtics offense improved points, field goal, three point offensive
net rating. So you think, oh, you're just criticizing Jason Tatum. No,
what I'm saying is there's been this thing where I'm
(15:58):
supposed to annoy him as the next great player, and
I'm watching the playoffs and all these great players are
out and I've still got him at six. We know
better than Jalen Brunson in the playoffs right now, No way,
Brunson's magnetic. He's taking a less talented team. So think
about all the great players that I'm not even counting Embiid,
(16:23):
Jannis Dame staph Lebro.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
They're out and I got him at six.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Is that a criticism or is it a player that
because he plays for the Celtics, people are trying to
make the face of the league. I don't think he's
dynamic like some of these guys. He's not as offensively profound.
The team is better, but there are a lot of
times I watch the Celtics playing Jalen Brown taking the
big shot. So I think people view that as a criticism,
(16:51):
not just the reality of what I'm seeing. And Nick
Wright is now joining us Live, the host of First
Things First, and I know that Lambs as, oh, you
don't like Tatum, but I do feel like Aunt, we
talked about him and then he shows up and you're like, Okay,
that may be the best player in the world. I've
been hearing this for five years on Tatum. All the
(17:12):
stars are out of the playoffs, many of them, and
I still think he's like the fifth or sixth best guy.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Is that what you're seeing?
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Well, so I would.
Speaker 9 (17:22):
If it's based on these playoffs, then that's why that's
the argument. Having Jalen Brunson ahead of him, but also
this regular season, you could argue Jalen Brunson, you know,
was probably fifth on a lot of MVP ballots, Tatum
fifth on a lot of MVP ballots.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Shay was better throughout the year.
Speaker 9 (17:39):
When I look at it on your list right here,
the one guy ahead of Tatum that I would definitively
have Tatum ahead of is Donovan Mitchell. Donovan was great
in Game six and seven, but really struggled games one
through five, and Donovan's defense leaves a great deal to
be desired, so we could him up one.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
But you also could make the argument that you have.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
To bump Shay ahead of both of them anyway. So no,
I think that's right. Like I, I don't think it
is a criticism of Jason Tatum to accurately rate him,
And I think the accurate rating of Jason Tatum is
the absolute best case scenario is he is the fifth
(18:25):
best player in the league. That is the most generous
ranking you can possibly give him. Because if we're just
talking about players overall, you have to have Jokic, Luka,
Jannis and ahead of him at a minimum.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
So at the at a minimum you.
Speaker 9 (18:43):
At best he's five, and at worst he's ten. I
think that, in my opinion, that is the fair tier
he drops in. I don't think that's picking on him.
I also, though, don't think maybe I'm wrong. I don't
think many people argue he's the best player in the league.
I think what they are arguing is he's the best
(19:05):
player on a team that they think is going to
win the championship, and that usually carries with it a gravity.
Rightfully so, but that is not always the best player
in the league. The last Celtics championship two thousand and eight,
the only one that's happened in the last thirty five years,
Kevin Garnett was the best player on that team. At
(19:26):
no point during that season did anyone think Kevin Garnett
was the best player in the world. He was, like Tatum,
somewhere in that five to ten range at this point
in his career. I don't think Dirk in twenty eleven,
while he was the best player in those playoffs, I
don't think he was the best player in the world
when they won that championship.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
So that's how I look at Tatum.
Speaker 9 (19:49):
A great player, a superstar, but his ceiling is not
that of the best player in the world, and I
don't think it ever has been so.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
In the seventies, when I fell in love with the NBA,
there was a different team that won every year, Washington, Philadelphia,
Golden State, Knicks, Blazers, Sonics. There was no dynasty. And
I'm watching Denver last night, who I thought could be
the Spurs, and I'm like, all right, last five years,
I've gotten Warriors, Lakers, Raptors, Bucks, Nuggets, and the Tea
(20:21):
Wolves look significantly better than Denver, and Boston is better.
And I thought to myself, did we overvalue Maybe not Jokis.
Did we overvalue Denver? I certainly did. I thought they
had a Spurs feel and they don't look athletically even
close to Minnesota, and Ants only getting better.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Jamal Murray isn't so.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
So if I tell you so.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
International player wins two MVPs but doesn't break through in
the postseason. Then finally, the year after he wins the
second MVP, finally wins a championship. Is dominant from start
to finish of those playoffs, and it feels like, well,
who's going to stop this guy? I just told the
story of Yannis, not Jokic. But now, all of a sudden,
(21:10):
it feels like the stories might be a little more
similar because Janni's The next year, they looked like they
were gonna win the title, and then Chris Middleton gets dinged.
Jason Tatum, to his credit, has the game of his
life in a Game six. They lose Game seven because
Boston hits a million threes. They've not been out of
the first round since A Bucks team that looked like
(21:31):
they were poised to be the team since they won
the title has not played a single conference finals game.
The Nuggets looked like the team to beat all year,
and now all of a sudden are facing an O
two hole just got absolutely dog walked in their building
(21:52):
in a must win game when the other team's best
defensive player wasn't there. And you start to ask some
really tough questions. We always the team that just won
is going to just keep winning, but to your point,
it actually hasn't happened over the last half decade. And
so yeah, I'm not going to act as if the
Nuggets are, you know, some wildly flawed team, but I
(22:16):
don't think they're going to.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Win this series.
Speaker 9 (22:18):
And then you never know when when Milwaukee was up
three to two on Boston, is the defending champs. It
looked like, well, you know, they've got the best player,
he's playing great, They're just gonna win again.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Who's gonna stop them.
Speaker 9 (22:31):
They have not been close since then, and they made
a maybe panic trade and remade their team.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
The other question I have about this series is this
Colin and I.
Speaker 9 (22:42):
The people are gonna say I'm being unfair, but once again,
I think I'm the only fair person out there.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Heavy as the head that wears the crown, is it.
Speaker 9 (22:51):
Fair to ask can we hold Nikola Jokic, soon to
be three time MVP, universally accepted best player in the world.
Can he be held to at least as hard of
a standard as we hold thirty nine year old oldest
player in the league Lebron James too? Can were Is
it fair to say that Joker needed to be better
(23:12):
last night in a must win game.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
Is it fair to say that.
Speaker 9 (23:15):
We just watched Anthony Davis score at will in round
one and now in Jokers defense, has somehow gotten worse
than round two. Every other guy who has been up
to this point, Lebron Durant, Steph those guys Yiannis when
they all of a sudden have not shown.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
Up in the playoffs.
Speaker 9 (23:37):
If that has happened, they have gotten crushed. And even
if they have shown up, they but they lose. They
have been harshly criticized. The discussion surrounding Jokic this year
has been is he going to run down shack A,
Keem and Larry Bird in the all time rankings? Well,
then he better be masterful over these ten days because
(24:01):
this is a really tough one to swallow right now.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and noon Easter nine am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 10 (24:14):
Hey, I'm Doug Gottlieb. The podcast is called All Ball.
We usually talk all basketball all the time, but it's
more about the stories about what made these people love
their sport and all the interesting interactions along the way.
We talked to coaches, we talked to players, We tell
you stories. You download it, you listen to it.
Speaker 7 (24:33):
I think you like it.
Speaker 10 (24:35):
Listen to All Ball with Doug Gottlieb on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You know it's interesting. Sometimes the media does this. They're
trying to offer protection for somebody that doesn't need it.
Mike Conley said, yeah, he looks like MJ to me,
and I read these media people whoa slow down on
the comps.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
That's not fair.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Oh he's literally saying I want to dominate KD and
did He plays like him. He's vertical, he's aggressive, He's
a good defender, maybe better than good. He is now
like Jordan, become really efficient, almost more so in the
playoffs than the regular season. And I watch him and
I'm like, oh, this mid range game, the fallaway stuff,
it's like the trash talking. Yeah, it's like Dominique or Michael,
(25:23):
but it feels more Michael than Dominique. I trust his
jumper more. I don't think he needs protection. Kobe leaned
into the Michael stuff. Tiger leaned into the Jack Nicholas stuff,
like I'm okay saying, I'm not saying he's gonna be
Michael aesthetically and everything, but that's got an MJ field.
Speaker 6 (25:41):
To him as not.
Speaker 9 (25:42):
Oh well, listen, there's a lot of similarities, but to
be fair to both players, there's a lot of differences. Obviously,
Michael six rings, five MVPs. Anthony's got a long way
to go. Also obviously in Anthony's favor. Anthony's twenty two
and about to make the conference finals. That you know,
at twenty two, Jordan was getting bounced in the sweet sixteen.
I just to be fair, we're gonna say that we're
(26:03):
gonna be an honest portrayal of the history here. Jordan
didn't win his first series till he was twenty five
years old. You know, Anthony Edwards already got that under
his belt. So there's similarities and differences between the two.
But Aunt is listen, and it's funny because he said
six hours before this game, stop with the Jordan comparisons,
(26:24):
and then he literally did the Jordan shrug a direct
and so I think Aunt knows what he's doing. Yes,
I also think that there's nothing he can do about
the fact that their games are. He has a very
similar game to young Michael, except with a far better
(26:45):
outside shot. Now there's just there are a lot of
ways for him to grow and we'll see what these
next steps are. But if the NBA needs this from
Anthony Edwards, yes, I love Luca and I think Luca
might be able to I think the MAVs.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
I think there's a world that exists where the Turmberwolves.
Speaker 9 (27:07):
Nuggets series ends up being a war and whoever comes
out of it the Mavericks end up beating. And I
think this could be actually Luca's time to make his
first NBA finals when nobody seems really to be talking
about it.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
I know j Max been big on Luca.
Speaker 9 (27:21):
Being the best player all year, and I think that
take might end up aging quite well. But as much
as I love Luca and as brilliant as Joker is
offensively right or wrong, the NBA needs one of these
homegrown guys yes to be on that level, and he's
the only one that I think can do it. He's
(27:42):
the only twenty something year old American player that I
think does have best player a live ability.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, And I think the NBA style matters. It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
In the NFL, Brady didn't have a style. He was
almost robotic at times, he was efficient. In the NBA,
it's more about art. Style absolutely matter. You know, again,
it doesn't really in golf, where if you're you know, big, strong,
off the t's cool, but you gotta win majors aunt
Scott style and flair and it's fun to I. I
like Luca, it's not as much fun to watch. I
like Jokic a lot. It's not that fun to watch.
(28:13):
This is dynamic fun. It's good TV. Now here's the
here's the other thing we were talking about. J McK
and I were that you gotta be very careful screwing
with a Knicks and I compared it a while ago,
about an hour ago, to a fidget spinner. When the
fidget spinner got popular in America, I was like, there's
no there there. That's not sustainable, there's nothing to it.
The Rubik's Cube was kind of mathy, and I'm like,
(28:35):
this can't last forever. And I said, the Knicks have
become that. I'm like Josh Hart, this is not what
he is. Brunson's not MJ. This team's not this good,
and you stop playing guy. I mean, like three Villanova
guys scored ninety two points. And I say to myself,
this is the fidget spinner. We're all gonna get it's
gonna we're gonna go. This is nonsense. And I keep
watching him in Why Anything, and it never happens.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So what are the Knicks?
Speaker 9 (29:00):
I mean a son of a gun to play man,
a team that no matter what happen, pardon me, happens
over the first forty five minutes of action, the game's
going to be tied with three minutes left, and good
luck man.
Speaker 5 (29:13):
I mean, that's what.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
It is like.
Speaker 9 (29:17):
NBA Twitter great and also does a great radio show
on Serious Rob Perez Worldwide wob who's a diehard NBA fan,
but a Knicks.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Fan through and through.
Speaker 9 (29:27):
He's been saying it all year, just like playing the Knicks,
Welcome to hell. We'll see at the finish line. That's
how they play now and Brunt, what Brunson is doing
is truly historic. The guys with four straight or more
forty point playoff games it's now Brunson, Bernard King, MJ,
(29:50):
and Jerry West. Jerry West actually did it six straight times,
but he lost a bunch of finals, so I guess
he's disqualified from any of the conversations. He's pretty damn
good if you or history books about the league. Brunton
also though the game before the forty point streets started,
he's scored thirty nine.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
He is their offense. Everyone knows it, and they nobody
can stop him.
Speaker 9 (30:14):
Now do I think that if they get to Boston,
which I think they will, that they are going to
be able to deal with Boston's length and the fact
that Boston has been basically will likely have been resting
for a few days, gone through too easy series, and
the Knicks will have just gone through hell to get
there playing I mean, Josh Hart, this playoffs is averaging
(30:37):
averaging forty seven minutes per game. Does that feel sustainable
for four rounds? It doesn't, but they keep winning. Man
and Brunson is last night fan duel and DraftKings. All
the sportsbooks had his over under for points Colin going
(30:57):
into the game. It was an even money on either side.
He's as likely to go over as under at thirty
seven and a half. They went into a playoff game
like yeah, we expect Jalen's is gonna get thirty seven
to thirty eight and the overhit like it is. It
is remarkable what they're doing and they have taken on.
This is like the perfect TIBs team. They are as
(31:20):
fun to watch the as any Knicks team of my
life since really the Spreewell Allen Houston ninety nine team,
which I thought was great. They ended up losing in
the finals to the Spurs. I think they'll make the
conference finals. It would be crazy to pick them over Boston,
but man, oh man, I don't think Boston's looking forward
(31:42):
to that matchup, I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 6 (31:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Plus, sometimes being rested, even in the NFL, you think
bye weeks are so valuable and you find out they're
really not. If you're hot, young teams want to play
the next night, the next night. So I think that
Boston New York series would be a lot feistier than PEP.
I think I would take the Celtics in six.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
Yeah, yeah, But I mean if it goes six, then
all of a sudden, weird things can happen, and while
you might be right about being rested can be overrated.
I think in game rest could be useful. Just one
note to the broadcast partners of the league. When Josh
Hart has not sat for a single minute in a
week and he's playing his ass off on both ends,
(32:21):
can we not be like, hey, Josh, can you give
us the between quarter interview? That poor guy is hyper
ventilating it's his only time to sit down, and he's like, no,
we feel we feel great about this pace.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
Let the guy rest for a moment. Yes, unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, it's like Olympic coverage. Somebody wins the marathon and
the NBC's over there with you. Yeah, it's what are
you doing one continent to the other. Can we give
him a break?
Speaker 6 (32:46):
Great?
Speaker 3 (32:46):
See Anyboddy nick Wright.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
First things first, Yeah, Josh Hart is it's just crazy
because Josh Hart's like double the player he usually is.
It's like a rebounding demon he's having. I mean he's
like a nine point of game four team in the league. Guy.
Now he's giving you eighteen nineteen points. His effort is
you know, it's it's it's what the next?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Your favorite?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
By the way, you have a team here that you
don't give narrowly the love the Knicks that's formidable, and
yet you slobber over the Jets that are a tire
fire most of the time.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
No, No, I'm giving the Knicks a lot of props.
I mean, I also like the Lakers, and Curry's my
favorite player, so the Knicks allegiance is high. But like
the NBA is a player league, you like players, the
NFL is a team league.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
You don't like root for players, do you?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Well, I think fantasy football and betting change that, but
fantasy football is really changed.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
That's fair point on the Knicks.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
So my kid plays video games and there's this game Fortnite,
I'm sure you've heard of. Yeah, and so when you're playing,
what's there's a term called your are you a sweat?
Like you're playing the video game and you're sweating, Yeah,
because you're trying so hard. So there's like a guy
a term called the sweaty try hard. That's what the
New York Knicks are. Comedy, yeah, they I mean Josh
Hart goes for like five offensive rebounds on the same
(33:54):
position right now. You don't see that around the league.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
My favorite team to watch in the playoffs easily, Yeah,
he's and the home Knicks or even a better TV
product than the road Knicks because you get the New
York crowd. They're a blast to watch and it shows
that it's not as star driven like in the NFL.
I don't need a lot of stars. Some times are
just fun to watch. I mean the Baltimore Ravens to me,
just their physicality and Lamar, just the way they play.
(34:17):
I think they're really fun to watch. I think the
Niners with Brock Purty, who's not like mahomes around. I
think they're a fun watch. The Knicks have one star.
I love watching them play. I mean I got home
ordered door dash. I was watching the pre game. I
don't watch pregame shows much. Watching the pregame waiting for
the entire Necks game that I did a live YouTube
had after I was glued to the TV for three
(34:38):
and a half hours.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
So part of the problem as a New Yorker is
I'm texting a New York friend, Man, what's the ceiling
on this team?
Speaker 5 (34:45):
And he's like, dude, just enjoy it.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Let's just just exactly what you should do about Karl
Anthony Towns or who's the next piece to get us
to beat the Celtics.
Speaker 7 (34:53):
Just enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
And sometimes we'll be going somewhere. We'll get somewhere. And
she said, when when are we going home? And I said,
we just landed. We've got three days. They just have
a great time.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
We don't need to know when the plane's leaving. We
don't need to know where this is ending. Let's just
enjoy what the Knicks.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It does not seem sustainable, correct a right.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Josh is not Scottie Pippin. I'm swear he's not.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
One more heard. The Herd streams twenty four hours a day,
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to listen live or on demand whenever you like
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three Eastern nine am to
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
All Right, here we go. It is a Tuesday live
in LA. It's the Herd wherever you may be and
however you may be listening.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thanks for Megan. How's part of your day? Nick Wright?
In one hour?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Captivating to watch a team in New York City be
an underdog. You do not get that very much. The
media capital of North America, one of the media capitals
of the world, if not the world. From Jmac, the
Villanova guys or ninety two of their points. The Villanova
(01:03):
guys like shot sixty percent from the field. Villanova guy's rolls,
glue guys, they're now carrying the knicks in the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
We're getting close to the point where they're not gonna
want to trade any of the villain You can't break
up this chemistry.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
There's definitely something there.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Oh yeah, if you go after Kevin Duraid, you can't
give up the villanova guy.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Sorry, yeah, it's you know, I was thinking about this.
You'll see things like in society sometimes, like I'll give
you an example, the fidget spinner. It gets really really hot,
like it's this and you're thinking yourself, how is this
so popular? This is not sustainable? There's no there there.
Like the Rubik's cube was kind of math. I got that,
but like the fidget spinner, Well, it can't be this
(01:43):
popular this long. Then eventually it drives up and nobody cares.
And that's sort of how I think about the New
York Knicks. How long can Jalen Brunson play like Michael Jordan.
He's now scored over forty points in four straight games,
like Jerry West has done it. Bernard King, Michael Jordan
and Jalen in a second round pick? How long can
Josh Hart double his offensive numbers in his career? He's
(02:04):
a bounce around the league guy. Now he's like a
rebounding Zelot and a scoring machine. The Knicks had four
guys play over forty minutes. How long can that last?
They have no bench. They were outscored last night forty
six to three, and they keep winning. It's the NBA's
version of the fidget spinner. When it won't it be popular,
(02:25):
When won't it work? How long is it sustainable?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Again?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Last night, no bench, Josh Hart doubling his output, never
coming off the floor. Now now, it's not like they
don't deserve it. Excellent fourth quarter offense, second in the playoffs,
good all year effort, excellent rebounding, excellent defense, committed offensively.
(02:51):
They're a very intentional team. They have limitations, but they
have very few bad possessions in the fourth quarter. They
come down their intentional, very good late game possessions, and
that you see teams all the time just waste possessions.
Lakers sometimes lead the league in that just wasted possessions.
You don't get any of those with the knicks in
(03:12):
the fourth quarter. It feels like every time they come down. Hustle, effort, dedication, rebounding,
it's an intentional possession, but generally sorry Nick fans, generally
no bench. One dominant score from the second round, a
bunch of Villanova guys and hustle and effort generally have
a ceiling. We knew the Knicks hustle and effort would
(03:35):
matter in the regular season if you play hard, you know,
in forty games in the NBA, if you have any talent,
there's so much load management, so many teams tanking. I'm
not surprised in the really bad East. They were a
good regular season team. And some of this is the
eastings Indiana is a number six seed.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
The East is bad.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Tyrese Haliburton, he's not a star, he's got good handles.
He got six points last night. Yles Turner was their offense.
So but it's a fun team, you know, it's it's
it's a in the East. It's a deserving team. Their
efforts incredible. But they've won five games this postseason, five
and they've outscored opponents in the playoffs combined by five
(04:18):
total points.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
So when will it end? Will it end?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
The team that seems to play hard every possession and
every night, with some offensive limitations, took another series lead,
and here was the coach after.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
I just think the way they work that they've invested
a lot into the season, and they put a lot
into each and every day. So I think when you
make that commitment to each other You're not going to
give in. You're going to keep fighting, and that's there's
great fight and we know we're short handed, so that's
our way. Our way is by we have to play
(04:56):
real hard.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah that they do so out the story is the
defending champs will not be repeat champs that series. It's over.
Denver's got no answers in the first half. They were
struggling just to get shots off. And I was thinking
about this last night watching is the NBA and this
(05:19):
is not necessarily a bad thing for the league, but
the ratings will go down. Is the NBA becoming the
NBA of the seventies, where every year you have a
different team. So if you go to the last five
NBA champs, Nuggets, Warriors, Raptors, Lakers, Bucks, this year, t Wolves,
(05:40):
I mean eight of the ten teams that have been
in finals in the last five years have been different.
So that's very much the NBA. I grew up with
the Blazers, the Sixers, the Lakers, maybe a Celtics, Washington,
Golden State, New York. It was a different team every year.
So we thought Denver was a little bit different because
(06:04):
Jokish was unstoppable, and then suddenly he wasn't because Minnesota,
even without Gobert last night, is so relentless defensively. I
mean I'm sitting there watching in the second quarter. I mean,
Denver couldn't get shots, and they were a good defensive
team all year. We're not you know, I watched enough
Minnesota all year. They're a good defensive team. But now
(06:26):
Ant is not only dynamic, but he is super efficient,
nazred playing with a ton of confidence, and their defense,
which was good, is now playing with a playoff fever pitch,
and it's just relentless. And let's be honest about Denver.
They were not great all season. I mean, they trailed
(06:47):
the Lakers for seventy percent of that series, and the
Lakers sneak into the playoffs. They've been a good clutch
time team, but they play close with average opponents a
lot this year. And what I'm watching feels like what
I'm watching is two talented teams, but one with Ant
is super hungry, relentless, aggressive and playing like an underdog,
(07:15):
and the other team, Denver, is lethargic, start slow, now
plays from too far behind, is a little arrogant, is
a little listless, and by the time they look up,
they trail by sixteen to a team that's got equal
or better talent. So in both games, Denver has tried
(07:35):
to sort of ease into the game.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
You can do that with the Lakers.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You can't do that with a player like Ant, who
is the best player on the floor, knows he's the
best player on the floor. Denver's got until Friday to
figure this out. But I'm watching what you're watching, and
you know it's not a styles make fights thing. I
watch these two play in the regular season, late in
the regular season that we're very even. But can you
(08:03):
go from apathetic to relentless? That's Denver because what I'm
seeing from Minnesota is this is a a little bit
like the Knicks with a lot more talent, Babe. They're
more or the same talent, and they want it much more,
and they're very efficient and they know what they are
and their starring Ant is playing now not just dynamic basketball, smart,
(08:27):
no bad shots. It's just I think Denver's cooked. I
think it's over and here's aunt after.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
We're doing a great job of just trying to just
pick them up early, like put pressure on everybody, a
pressure to ball, pressure to pass, or don't let it,
don't don't let it. Cat do a great job of
just pressuring the entry pass, don't let it be easy,
nas front and cal front and trying to get our
hands on everything, touching, pushing, being physical.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I'm watching that game last night in the first half,
and I don't think I've ever seen a talented NBA
team struggle to get into their offense like that. They
couldn't get into their offense. That's like an outmatched college team.
I mean, Yukon beat teams in the tournament and it
was clearly the best team. People could get into their offense.
I mean Denver couldn't get into it. Here's Charles Barkley.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
We saw one of the best defensive teams I've ever seen.
You know, the stats don't lie. They are incredible defensively.
You talk about what even Rudy's not there, but on
the perimeter, their guarding everything led by ant Man, their
best player is playing great defense, and the rest of
those perimeter players, even with Dow Rudy Man, this is
(09:42):
one of the best defensive teams I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, you were texting me last night, like there are
series that start out to oh, but you feel like, Oh,
this team has a they need a couple of days off.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I watched that and I'm like, yeah, and I think again,
I I think we're falling into a seventies NBA. We're
gonna have potentially our sixth different champion, either Boston or
a Minnesota maybe an oksee. I don't think the Knicks
are a championship team, but I think we're gonna have
the six different champion in six years. It didn't bother me,
(10:16):
but the dynasty's over. We had the Heatles, we had
the Warriors. Those are done, and I think we're going
into a decade of new team every year because I
thought I thought Denver had a lot of San Antonio
feel to it. But Ant is exploding as a player.
And I don't know how Minnesota moves Cat because I
(10:38):
think there's been a lot of talk all year about
you can move Carl Anthony Towns.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I'm watching the last night.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
He gets a lot of buckets. He gets a lot
of buckets, and this will disallow a lot of glomming
on just to Ant. If you have Carl Anthony Towns,
that can get you twenty four a night. So your
impression of what you watched, Yeah, Nuggets are done.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I think obviously the Timberwolves are.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
They're fascinating because of the way they're built, with a
lot of role players in length.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
But Colin, the NBA has to be careful what they
ask for. Oh, we don't want these super teams. They
got to make these guys pay the luxury tax, all right.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yeah, you remember what the seventies in the NBA was like, Yeah,
neither's anyone else.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Also, they're going to Amazon with their new contract.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
It's fine.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
A lot of people aren't gonna pay for that, so
you're gonna lose big chunks of your audience there. So
what keeps you alive is the NFL can go occasionally
to streaming. You notice who the NFL put on streaming,
Patrick Mahomes. Yeah, the NFL put yeah Patrick Mahomes. And
streaming you can draw an audience. It's smaller than broadcast TV,
but it's an audience, and it's also the NFL, which
(11:45):
is in its own galaxy.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
How many people turned on the game last night, We're like,
who's Anthony Edwards again? Honestly, I love Anthony Edwards. Force
casters we know it, were into it, but like casual
fans are like, oh the Nuggets are in trouble, they're
losing to who Anthony Edwards and Jaden McDaniel's people don't
know these guys, and it's gonna take some time and listen,
you know we like the NBA. We're gonna watch right, yeah,
but are are these teams gonna rope in the casual We.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Were talking about this morning in the meeting, I said,
if you got to a Minnesota Celtics final, even with
the Boston brand, I'd be really fascinated to watch the
numbers if it was an OKC Boston. I mean, it's
not gonna happen, but you can say what you want.
Is football is not market or player beholden, Baseball is
(12:33):
NBA really is?
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And we don't care so much about the numbers for
the game, but like the numbers for our show, or
people like tuning ag in to hear US talk Minnesota
Oka se or would they rather hear another Jets topic
for fifteen minutes because we can do that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I mean I can do that all day, well you can.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I can't be sure to catch live editions of the
Herd weekdays and noon eastern non am Pacific on Fox
Sports Radio FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
AnyWho.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So I was thinking about this, Here's who's out of
the play ploffs. These are all out of These are
great players, Lebron, Steph Katie Mbad Kawhi, Dame, James Harden,
Jimmy Butler, the old Heads, they're all out of the playoffs.
So if I said, who are the ten best players
right now in the playoffs, you know, based on production,
(13:18):
and here's my ten best players. So Luca would be
number one. He's nearly averaging a thirty point triple double. Okay,
he's number one. Number two is Yokich. He's nearly averaging
a triple double, and he leads the playoffs in rebounds
and assists. Number three would be Aunt Edwards, certainly the
(13:38):
most watchable player, the only player averaging thirty plus on
at least fifty percent shooting in the playoffs. So his
efficiency has really clicked against better teams. That's a great sign.
Number four Jalen Brunson. He leads the NBA in scoring.
His first step is so fast, a highest usage rate
(14:00):
by anybody in the playoffs. So big minutes big production.
Number five would be Donovan Mitchell, who was second in
points score to Brunson and second to Brunson in usage.
Minute six, I would get to Jason Tatum. He's the
third leading scorer in the playoffs and he also leads
the Celtics in rebounds and plus minus. Seven would be
(14:23):
Sga from Oklahoma City. Although his scoring and assist numbers
have gone down from the regular season, he's at seven.
At eight would be Kyrie Irving, who's been great, but
a lot of it's been in the second half, but
he has been great. He's a complete defensive liability that matters.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Tatum is not.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Anthony Edwards is not even Luca now plays some defense.
Number nine would be Jamal Murray, who tends to get
better as the game goes on, but his team's in
an two hole and he's not.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Getting it done right now.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Number ten would be Jalen Brown, who's shooting about thirty
two sent from three point reigns. Not great, Not much
I can take from the Miami series, but right now,
that would be the ten best players. And here's why
it's interesting. I don't feel bad saying this that Jason
Tatum is number six, So he's not as dominant as Jokic,
(15:16):
he's not as dynamic as Aunt, and he's not as
consistently prodigious offensively as a Donovan Mitchell or a Jalen Brunson.
The MAVs are Luca. I mean, even despite Kyrie, the
MAVs are a Luca denver Is Jokic. The Celtics aren't
Jason Tatum. And that's not a criticism. But what's interesting
is they were seven and one this year without Tatum.
(15:38):
And what's really interesting is Tatum's numbers went down this year,
his scoring in his shots per game, and the team
got better. And when he missed the eight games this year,
the Celtics offense improved points, field goal, three point offensive
net rating. So you think, oh, you're just criticizing Jason Tatum. No,
what I'm saying is there's been this thing where I'm
(15:58):
supposed to annoy him as the next great player, and
I'm watching the playoffs and all these great players are
out and I've still got him at six. We know
better than Jalen Brunson in the playoffs right now, No way,
Brunson's magnetic. He's taking a less talented team. So think
about all the great players that I'm not even counting Embiid,
(16:23):
Jannis Dame staph Lebro.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
They're out and I got him at six.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Is that a criticism or is it a player that
because he plays for the Celtics, people are trying to
make the face of the league. I don't think he's
dynamic like some of these guys. He's not as offensively profound.
The team is better, but there are a lot of
times I watch the Celtics playing Jalen Brown taking the
big shot. So I think people view that as a criticism,
(16:51):
not just the reality of what I'm seeing. And Nick
Wright is now joining us Live, the host of First
Things First, and I know that Lambs as, oh, you
don't like Tatum, but I do feel like Aunt, we
talked about him and then he shows up and you're like, Okay,
that may be the best player in the world. I've
been hearing this for five years on Tatum. All the
(17:12):
stars are out of the playoffs, many of them, and
I still think he's like the fifth or sixth best guy.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Is that what you're seeing?
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Well, so I would.
Speaker 9 (17:22):
If it's based on these playoffs, then that's why that's
the argument. Having Jalen Brunson ahead of him, but also
this regular season, you could argue Jalen Brunson, you know,
was probably fifth on a lot of MVP ballots, Tatum
fifth on a lot of MVP ballots.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Shay was better throughout the year.
Speaker 9 (17:39):
When I look at it on your list right here,
the one guy ahead of Tatum that I would definitively
have Tatum ahead of is Donovan Mitchell. Donovan was great
in Game six and seven, but really struggled games one
through five, and Donovan's defense leaves a great deal to
be desired, so we could him up one.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
But you also could make the argument that you have.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
To bump Shay ahead of both of them anyway. So no,
I think that's right. Like I, I don't think it
is a criticism of Jason Tatum to accurately rate him,
And I think the accurate rating of Jason Tatum is
the absolute best case scenario is he is the fifth
(18:25):
best player in the league. That is the most generous
ranking you can possibly give him. Because if we're just
talking about players overall, you have to have Jokic, Luka,
Jannis and ahead of him at a minimum.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
So at the at a minimum you.
Speaker 9 (18:43):
At best he's five, and at worst he's ten. I
think that, in my opinion, that is the fair tier
he drops in. I don't think that's picking on him.
I also, though, don't think maybe I'm wrong. I don't
think many people argue he's the best player in the league.
I think what they are arguing is he's the best
(19:05):
player on a team that they think is going to
win the championship, and that usually carries with it a gravity.
Rightfully so, but that is not always the best player
in the league. The last Celtics championship two thousand and eight,
the only one that's happened in the last thirty five years,
Kevin Garnett was the best player on that team. At
(19:26):
no point during that season did anyone think Kevin Garnett
was the best player in the world. He was, like Tatum,
somewhere in that five to ten range at this point
in his career. I don't think Dirk in twenty eleven,
while he was the best player in those playoffs, I
don't think he was the best player in the world
when they won that championship.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
So that's how I look at Tatum.
Speaker 9 (19:49):
A great player, a superstar, but his ceiling is not
that of the best player in the world, and I
don't think it ever has been so.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
In the seventies, when I fell in love with the NBA,
there was a different team that won every year, Washington, Philadelphia,
Golden State, Knicks, Blazers, Sonics. There was no dynasty. And
I'm watching Denver last night, who I thought could be
the Spurs, and I'm like, all right, last five years,
I've gotten Warriors, Lakers, Raptors, Bucks, Nuggets, and the Tea
(20:21):
Wolves look significantly better than Denver, and Boston is better.
And I thought to myself, did we overvalue Maybe not Jokis.
Did we overvalue Denver? I certainly did. I thought they
had a Spurs feel and they don't look athletically even
close to Minnesota, and Ants only getting better.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Jamal Murray isn't so.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
So if I tell you so.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
International player wins two MVPs but doesn't break through in
the postseason. Then finally, the year after he wins the
second MVP, finally wins a championship. Is dominant from start
to finish of those playoffs, and it feels like, well,
who's going to stop this guy? I just told the
story of Yannis, not Jokic. But now, all of a sudden,
(21:10):
it feels like the stories might be a little more
similar because Janni's The next year, they looked like they
were gonna win the title, and then Chris Middleton gets dinged.
Jason Tatum, to his credit, has the game of his
life in a Game six. They lose Game seven because
Boston hits a million threes. They've not been out of
the first round since A Bucks team that looked like
(21:31):
they were poised to be the team since they won
the title has not played a single conference finals game.
The Nuggets looked like the team to beat all year,
and now all of a sudden are facing an O
two hole just got absolutely dog walked in their building
(21:52):
in a must win game when the other team's best
defensive player wasn't there. And you start to ask some
really tough questions. We always the team that just won
is going to just keep winning, but to your point,
it actually hasn't happened over the last half decade. And
so yeah, I'm not going to act as if the
Nuggets are, you know, some wildly flawed team, but I
(22:16):
don't think they're going to.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Win this series.
Speaker 9 (22:18):
And then you never know when when Milwaukee was up
three to two on Boston, is the defending champs. It
looked like, well, you know, they've got the best player,
he's playing great, They're just gonna win again.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Who's gonna stop them.
Speaker 9 (22:31):
They have not been close since then, and they made
a maybe panic trade and remade their team.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
The other question I have about this series is this
Colin and I.
Speaker 9 (22:42):
The people are gonna say I'm being unfair, but once again,
I think I'm the only fair person out there.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Heavy as the head that wears the crown, is it.
Speaker 9 (22:51):
Fair to ask can we hold Nikola Jokic, soon to
be three time MVP, universally accepted best player in the world.
Can he be held to at least as hard of
a standard as we hold thirty nine year old oldest
player in the league Lebron James too? Can were Is
it fair to say that Joker needed to be better
(23:12):
last night in a must win game.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
Is it fair to say that.
Speaker 9 (23:15):
We just watched Anthony Davis score at will in round
one and now in Jokers defense, has somehow gotten worse
than round two. Every other guy who has been up
to this point, Lebron Durant, Steph those guys Yiannis when
they all of a sudden have not shown.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
Up in the playoffs.
Speaker 9 (23:37):
If that has happened, they have gotten crushed. And even
if they have shown up, they but they lose. They
have been harshly criticized. The discussion surrounding Jokic this year
has been is he going to run down shack A,
Keem and Larry Bird in the all time rankings? Well,
then he better be masterful over these ten days because
(24:01):
this is a really tough one to swallow right now.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
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Speaker 10 (24:14):
Hey, I'm Doug Gottlieb. The podcast is called All Ball.
We usually talk all basketball all the time, but it's
more about the stories about what made these people love
their sport and all the interesting interactions along the way.
We talked to coaches, we talked to players, We tell
you stories. You download it, you listen to it.
Speaker 7 (24:33):
I think you like it.
Speaker 10 (24:35):
Listen to All Ball with Doug Gottlieb on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You know it's interesting. Sometimes the media does this. They're
trying to offer protection for somebody that doesn't need it.
Mike Conley said, yeah, he looks like MJ to me,
and I read these media people whoa slow down on
the comps.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
That's not fair.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Oh he's literally saying I want to dominate KD and
did He plays like him. He's vertical, he's aggressive, He's
a good defender, maybe better than good. He is now
like Jordan, become really efficient, almost more so in the
playoffs than the regular season. And I watch him and
I'm like, oh, this mid range game, the fallaway stuff,
it's like the trash talking. Yeah, it's like Dominique or Michael,
(25:23):
but it feels more Michael than Dominique. I trust his
jumper more. I don't think he needs protection. Kobe leaned
into the Michael stuff. Tiger leaned into the Jack Nicholas stuff,
like I'm okay saying, I'm not saying he's gonna be
Michael aesthetically and everything, but that's got an MJ field.
Speaker 6 (25:41):
To him as not.
Speaker 9 (25:42):
Oh well, listen, there's a lot of similarities, but to
be fair to both players, there's a lot of differences. Obviously,
Michael six rings, five MVPs. Anthony's got a long way
to go. Also obviously in Anthony's favor. Anthony's twenty two
and about to make the conference finals. That you know,
at twenty two, Jordan was getting bounced in the sweet sixteen.
I just to be fair, we're gonna say that we're
(26:03):
gonna be an honest portrayal of the history here. Jordan
didn't win his first series till he was twenty five
years old. You know, Anthony Edwards already got that under
his belt. So there's similarities and differences between the two.
But Aunt is listen, and it's funny because he said
six hours before this game, stop with the Jordan comparisons,
(26:24):
and then he literally did the Jordan shrug a direct
and so I think Aunt knows what he's doing. Yes,
I also think that there's nothing he can do about
the fact that their games are. He has a very
similar game to young Michael, except with a far better
(26:45):
outside shot. Now there's just there are a lot of
ways for him to grow and we'll see what these
next steps are. But if the NBA needs this from
Anthony Edwards, yes, I love Luca and I think Luca
might be able to I think the MAVs.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
I think there's a world that exists where the Turmberwolves.
Speaker 9 (27:07):
Nuggets series ends up being a war and whoever comes
out of it the Mavericks end up beating. And I
think this could be actually Luca's time to make his
first NBA finals when nobody seems really to be talking
about it.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
I know j Max been big on Luca.
Speaker 9 (27:21):
Being the best player all year, and I think that
take might end up aging quite well. But as much
as I love Luca and as brilliant as Joker is
offensively right or wrong, the NBA needs one of these
homegrown guys yes to be on that level, and he's
the only one that I think can do it. He's
(27:42):
the only twenty something year old American player that I
think does have best player a live ability.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, And I think the NBA style matters. It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
In the NFL, Brady didn't have a style. He was
almost robotic at times, he was efficient. In the NBA,
it's more about art. Style absolutely matter. You know, again,
it doesn't really in golf, where if you're you know, big, strong,
off the t's cool, but you gotta win majors aunt
Scott style and flair and it's fun to I. I
like Luca, it's not as much fun to watch. I
like Jokic a lot. It's not that fun to watch.
(28:13):
This is dynamic fun. It's good TV. Now here's the
here's the other thing we were talking about. J McK
and I were that you gotta be very careful screwing
with a Knicks and I compared it a while ago,
about an hour ago, to a fidget spinner. When the
fidget spinner got popular in America, I was like, there's
no there there. That's not sustainable, there's nothing to it.
The Rubik's Cube was kind of mathy, and I'm like,
(28:35):
this can't last forever. And I said, the Knicks have
become that. I'm like Josh Hart, this is not what
he is. Brunson's not MJ. This team's not this good,
and you stop playing guy. I mean, like three Villanova
guys scored ninety two points. And I say to myself,
this is the fidget spinner. We're all gonna get it's
gonna we're gonna go. This is nonsense. And I keep
watching him in Why Anything, and it never happens.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So what are the Knicks?
Speaker 9 (29:00):
I mean a son of a gun to play man,
a team that no matter what happen, pardon me, happens
over the first forty five minutes of action, the game's
going to be tied with three minutes left, and good
luck man.
Speaker 5 (29:13):
I mean, that's what.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
It is like.
Speaker 9 (29:17):
NBA Twitter great and also does a great radio show
on Serious Rob Perez Worldwide wob who's a diehard NBA fan,
but a Knicks.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Fan through and through.
Speaker 9 (29:27):
He's been saying it all year, just like playing the Knicks,
Welcome to hell. We'll see at the finish line. That's
how they play now and Brunt, what Brunson is doing
is truly historic. The guys with four straight or more
forty point playoff games it's now Brunson, Bernard King, MJ,
(29:50):
and Jerry West. Jerry West actually did it six straight times,
but he lost a bunch of finals, so I guess
he's disqualified from any of the conversations. He's pretty damn
good if you or history books about the league. Brunton
also though the game before the forty point streets started,
he's scored thirty nine.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
He is their offense. Everyone knows it, and they nobody
can stop him.
Speaker 9 (30:14):
Now do I think that if they get to Boston,
which I think they will, that they are going to
be able to deal with Boston's length and the fact
that Boston has been basically will likely have been resting
for a few days, gone through too easy series, and
the Knicks will have just gone through hell to get
there playing I mean, Josh Hart, this playoffs is averaging
(30:37):
averaging forty seven minutes per game. Does that feel sustainable
for four rounds? It doesn't, but they keep winning. Man
and Brunson is last night fan duel and DraftKings. All
the sportsbooks had his over under for points Colin going
(30:57):
into the game. It was an even money on either side.
He's as likely to go over as under at thirty
seven and a half. They went into a playoff game
like yeah, we expect Jalen's is gonna get thirty seven
to thirty eight and the overhit like it is. It
is remarkable what they're doing and they have taken on.
This is like the perfect TIBs team. They are as
(31:20):
fun to watch the as any Knicks team of my
life since really the Spreewell Allen Houston ninety nine team,
which I thought was great. They ended up losing in
the finals to the Spurs. I think they'll make the
conference finals. It would be crazy to pick them over Boston,
but man, oh man, I don't think Boston's looking forward
(31:42):
to that matchup, I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 6 (31:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Plus, sometimes being rested, even in the NFL, you think
bye weeks are so valuable and you find out they're
really not. If you're hot, young teams want to play
the next night, the next night. So I think that
Boston New York series would be a lot feistier than PEP.
I think I would take the Celtics in six.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
Yeah, yeah, But I mean if it goes six, then
all of a sudden, weird things can happen, and while
you might be right about being rested can be overrated.
I think in game rest could be useful. Just one
note to the broadcast partners of the league. When Josh
Hart has not sat for a single minute in a
week and he's playing his ass off on both ends,
(32:21):
can we not be like, hey, Josh, can you give
us the between quarter interview? That poor guy is hyper
ventilating it's his only time to sit down, and he's like, no,
we feel we feel great about this pace.
Speaker 5 (32:33):
Let the guy rest for a moment. Yes, unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, it's like Olympic coverage. Somebody wins the marathon and
the NBC's over there with you. Yeah, it's what are
you doing one continent to the other. Can we give
him a break?
Speaker 6 (32:46):
Great?
Speaker 3 (32:46):
See Anyboddy nick Wright.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
First things first, Yeah, Josh Hart is it's just crazy
because Josh Hart's like double the player he usually is.
It's like a rebounding demon he's having. I mean he's
like a nine point of game four team in the league. Guy.
Now he's giving you eighteen nineteen points. His effort is
you know, it's it's it's what the next?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Your favorite?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
By the way, you have a team here that you
don't give narrowly the love the Knicks that's formidable, and
yet you slobber over the Jets that are a tire
fire most of the time.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
No, No, I'm giving the Knicks a lot of props.
I mean, I also like the Lakers, and Curry's my
favorite player, so the Knicks allegiance is high. But like
the NBA is a player league, you like players, the
NFL is a team league.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
You don't like root for players, do you?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Well, I think fantasy football and betting change that, but
fantasy football is really changed.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
That's fair point on the Knicks.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
So my kid plays video games and there's this game Fortnite,
I'm sure you've heard of. Yeah, and so when you're playing,
what's there's a term called your are you a sweat?
Like you're playing the video game and you're sweating, Yeah,
because you're trying so hard. So there's like a guy
a term called the sweaty try hard. That's what the
New York Knicks are. Comedy, yeah, they I mean Josh
Hart goes for like five offensive rebounds on the same
(33:54):
position right now. You don't see that around the league.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
My favorite team to watch in the playoffs easily, Yeah,
he's and the home Knicks or even a better TV
product than the road Knicks because you get the New
York crowd. They're a blast to watch and it shows
that it's not as star driven like in the NFL.
I don't need a lot of stars. Some times are
just fun to watch. I mean the Baltimore Ravens to me,
just their physicality and Lamar, just the way they play.
(34:17):
I think they're really fun to watch. I think the
Niners with Brock Purty, who's not like mahomes around. I
think they're a fun watch. The Knicks have one star.
I love watching them play. I mean I got home
ordered door dash. I was watching the pre game. I
don't watch pregame shows much. Watching the pregame waiting for
the entire Necks game that I did a live YouTube
had after I was glued to the TV for three
(34:38):
and a half hours.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
So part of the problem as a New Yorker is
I'm texting a New York friend, Man, what's the ceiling
on this team?
Speaker 5 (34:45):
And he's like, dude, just enjoy it.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Let's just just exactly what you should do about Karl
Anthony Towns or who's the next piece to get us
to beat the Celtics.
Speaker 7 (34:53):
Just enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
And sometimes we'll be going somewhere. We'll get somewhere. And
she said, when when are we going home? And I said,
we just landed. We've got three days. They just have
a great time.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
We don't need to know when the plane's leaving. We
don't need to know where this is ending. Let's just
enjoy what the Knicks.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It does not seem sustainable, correct a right.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Josh is not Scottie Pippin. I'm swear he's not.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
One more heard. The Herd streams twenty four hours a day,
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