3 & Out - Michael Lombardi joins, Quarterback contracts, OTA's, Marvin Harrison Jr. is getting sued

John dives into quarterback contracts and how they are extremely different than any other position in the NFL and if the Dolphins should rush to give Tua a new contract. Next, John talks about how teams should handle rookies during OTA's, and what's going on with Marvin Harrison Jr. and Fanatics.

Later, John is joined by the former NFL GM Michael Lombardi.

7:05 - Quarterback contracts

19:31 - OTA's

28:26 - Marvin Harrison Jr. vs. Fanatics

33:23 - Michael Lombardi

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (01:53):
What is happening my people? I'm John Middlecop. This is
the three and Out Podcast, back to talk a little football.
We did a live reaction yesterday to the PGA Championship.
Xanderschoffley finally won a major, and obviously the big story
of Friday and the weekend was Scottie Scheffler being arrested

(02:15):
and put into an orange jumpsuit. So I gave my
outlook on that one. Alzheimer. That'll be tough to be
topped ads to the legend of Scotty And today we're
going to talk OTA's quarterback contracts, TUA Doug Peterson on
Trevor Lawrence. I think both teams would be well served

(02:35):
to take a similar approach. Let it play out. Some
thoughts on OTA's when it comes to the importance of
young guys, new free agents, new coaches, head coaches or coordinators.
And then I'm just going to fire through a couple
of NFL stories. Marvin Harrison Junior is being sued by fanatics,

(02:56):
the NFL network has basically canceled or po all their programming,
and Drake may stood next to Tom Brady and he's massive.
Daniel Jones is participating in seven on seven, so it
looks like he's healthy. And we'll just talk a little
football and then be joined by Michael Lombardi, longtime NFL

(03:16):
executive turn podcaster media guy. So I talked to him
last week for about thirty thirty five minutes. He will
be on the podcast as well, and other than that,
we will do a mail bag tomorrow. So at John
Middlecoff is the Instagram fire in those dms, I will
answer your mail bag questions. The rest of the week.

(03:39):
But no mail bag today, just some thoughts on OTA's
and Lombardi and then we'll get back rocking and rolling
to normal program. It's Moral Day weekend coming up, so
hopefully you're going to the lake, getting a barbecue in,
playing some golf, hanging out. It's a good time of year.
Sun is out in theory. It's actually a cloudy day
and raining a little where I am, but time to

(04:02):
enjoy yourself. So if you listen on Collins Feed, make
sure you subscribe to three and out. All of our
contents up on the YouTube page. Type in my name.
It's all there. And other than that, let's talk some football.
But before we dive in, I mentioned this yesterday on
the Go Low podcast reacting to the PGA Championship where
Scotti Sheffler got arrested. Is I was up early in

(04:25):
the morning on Sunday, scroll on Instagram and I see
this video of Brock Party handing out beers to George
Kittle at the Luke Combs concert, and I'm like, you
know what, I'm gonna go to that, So hit up
my friends at game time, got taken care of, and
I'm headed to Luke Comb's here in Glendale in a
couple of weeks. I'm fired up. And I've used these

(04:47):
guys over and over for the last year and a half.
I've gone to spring training games, I've gone to an
NHL game. I've gone to multiple concerts. I haven't gotten
to a comedy show yet, but it if you want
to go to one. I saw my neighbors like a
month ago, headed out. They had cocktails in hand, hopping
in an uber had to do a comedy show. So

(05:07):
if you want to go, enjoy yourself, go do something fun,
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(05:29):
for twenty dollars off. Download the game Time app today,
Last minute tickets, lowest prices guaranteed. You know Mike Florio
on Pro Football Talk, highly successful. I guess it would
be called a blog website. It's like the modern day newspaper,
operates at rapid speed, and he gives his opinions and
I disagree with ninety percent of them. But his big

(05:50):
thing is the price always goes up when it comes
to these quarterback contracts. And here's my thing. I would
never mind paying a little bit more to know for sure,
I would hate giving an astronomical amount of money because
we all see these quarterback contracts. They are in a
different universe than the rest of the players. Like when

(06:13):
wide receivers get broken off, they get seventy million dollars guaranteed.
That's what Devonte Adams, that what that's what Tyreek Hill got.
I've never cared that much about the yearly basis when
it comes to your contract, because that's not how NFL
contracts work. This is not basketball, where when you sign

(06:34):
a four year, one hundred million dollar deal, you're basically
getting twenty five million dollars a year. Every penny is guaranteed,
or a two hundred million dollar deal or two hundred
and fifty million dollar deal or whatever money gets handed
out in the NBA. We know football contracts don't work
like that because there's guaranteed money, there's non guaranteed money.
There's signing bonuses, which are a big setup to the

(06:58):
way these guys get compensated. And when we just saw
Jared Goff get one hundred and seventy million dollars guaranteed.
That was the number that mattered to me, not the
fifty three million dollars. Now, if you do the math,
fifty three million dollars over the course of several years,
you know it's like a three year He's not going anywhere.
He is the starting quarterback for the foreseeable future. Safe

(07:21):
to say they're not going to pull a Sean Payton
Denver Broncos and cut him if he has a down year.
But they have to feel really good about him because
when they traded for him, their franchise was a joke.
Three years later, they have a lead in the NFC
Championship and we're working the forty nine ers on the road.
So Jared Goff has proven and a couple of years ago,

(07:42):
one question mark with him is in inclement weather. Now,
if I was playing in a freezing cold game, he
definitely wouldn't be the first draft pick. But remember a
couple of years ago in a cold game against Aaron
Rodgers and his last game as a Packer played pretty well.
So his resume is really really long and has proven
four for them that he can win playoff games, not

(08:03):
a playoff game, playoff games one two. This year. The
thing with Tua is he's obviously been really solid for
the Dolphins. He's help with Mike McDaniel and Tyreek Hill
and kind of the crew they have make the franchise
relevant and got them to the playoffs back to back years.
Here's the problem, and this year is a good example.

(08:25):
Last year he was injured right, he had the concussion situation,
didn't even play in the in the game against the
Bills in the playoffs, skyther Thompson did actually have some moments,
and then this year he had no shot like it
was a joke against the Kansasity Chiefs in that freezing
cold weather game that Bretfeach told me the combine was
the coldest game he's ever been experienced. And when you

(08:47):
just say it's going to be a freezing cold game,
you would short the Dolphins. My thing is on extending him,
like what's the rush? Why do you need to do it?
If the number is the number, I just can't pay
you the number right now. If I'm gonna have to
pay ten more percent because this year you take me
to the conference championship game. Rattle off some playoff victories

(09:10):
win me the division, Okay, But I will feel much
better against that six month ten percent inflation because I
didn't pay him over the summer, and I paid him
in February or March of twenty twenty five knowing what
he can do in the big games, because right now
you simply do not. He was not good down the stretch.

(09:34):
He did not beat good teams, and he didn't play well.
And the team that you're chasing, he's never gonna be
as good as Josh Allen. So I'm not comparing him
to Josh Allen, but that's the guy in your division, Like,
that's the guy you have to take down. And there
was never a better time than twenty twenty three when
the team started six and six, and then when the

(09:55):
dust settled, they won the division and obviously they were
in the second round of the playoffs. So my take
on guys like Tua is I just need as much
information as possible before I'm absolutely forced. That's what I
would do, and we'll see if the Dolphins end up
giving him a massive extension. And even in the Jared
goth range, which I think like I would rather have

(10:16):
Jared Goff than to a Tongua Bai lola. I don't
think that's some hot take. I think that's kind of
a no brainer. And I think if I pull thirty
two GMS, I think GoF would be the majority of picks.
Not saying it'd be thirty two nothing, but I think
the number would be well over twenty five. I think
it would be ninety percent. I really do. So my

(10:41):
take on this is just what's the rush? What's the rush?
And I say the same thing about Trevor Lawrence because
Doug Peterson said today that Trent Balkey and Trevor Lawrence's
agent are working tirelessly on a contract extension. Another Florio take,
the price only goes up. Okay, at least I feel

(11:02):
better about giving one hundred and eighty or two hundred
million dollars knowing I have a guy after he throws
thirty five touchdowns and leads me to the division championship,
when most people are gonna pick the Texans or even
the Colts, not us. Trevor Lawrence has never thrown more
than twenty five touchdowns in a season, and that was

(11:23):
two years ago. Last year he was banged up, and
simply he just wasn't very good, turn the ball over
way too much. And to me, the eye test, you
just watched him, and when you factored in the hype,
you're like, I don't see it.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Now.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
If he's the eleventh best quarterback and I got to
give him some massive contract, so be it. But if
it turns out he's actually closer like the fifteenth sixteenth
best quarterback in the league, we got a problem. And
now given our division, just with CJ. Stroud and the
Houston Texans, we're fighting for second place. And if this
year Shane Siken's definitely a good coach, and if Anthony

(11:58):
Richardson could stay healthy, that roster's good, all of a sudden,
we're finishing in third and we're paying our quarterback of premium. Listen,
I thought the Dak contract years ago was kind of bold,
but say this. They don't win in the playoffs, which
obviously gets talked about a lot. But every year I'm
getting twelve wins with Dak Prescott when he's healthy. Every
year I got a pretty good chance to win the division.

(12:19):
I've won it two of three years. This year might
be a little challenging because the roster's not as good
because his contract's kicking in. But for three years on
that massive contract extension, he entered the Bell in the
regular season. And I just based on the body of
work with Trevor Lawrence, giving him and to these massive
numbers just seems like bad business, because that's ultimately what

(12:42):
this is. This is not baseball. Or you have an
unlimited amount of money and you can pay show Hey Tani.
You can pay his buddy from Japan, who's some sweet pitcher.
You can pay Mookie Betch, you can pay Freddy Freeman.
You can do like the Yankees did all those years,
pay all these guys. It doesn't matter. That's not the
case here. You're in a salary cap league where your

(13:02):
resources you better be right because when you sign bad
contracts or overpay dramatically for a player, it's a problem.
And that's a position player. When you dramatically overpay a quarterback,
you're in major, major trouble. So I think these teams
like yeah, Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes

(13:26):
making boatloads of money, they're elite, they're all time great players.
When Patrick Mahomes, you could argue, is already like a
top five quarterback of all time. Josh Allen and Lamar
Jackson are the second and third best player given Joe
Burrow's injuries right now in the league. So like you
feel good about it, and they can carry teams when

(13:48):
I pay you all this money, Like you get to
a point like can you carry me? And I haven't
seen enough. I mean we've seen two of these big games.
A lot to be desired, like just not my type.
Trevor Lawrence kind of still riding a lot of hype
from his youth, weird situation in Jacksonville, but I just

(14:08):
got to see more and I could not give out
that type money now justin Jefferson's currently holding out from
these voluntary OTAs. He's so good, like you don't have
a choice, Like you're gonna have to pay him a
ton of money. But this is where it gets complicated.
The last wide receiver contracts are seventy ish million dollars.

(14:28):
Like that's the most guaranteed money that was given out.
He's probably going I want one hundred million dollars. And
that's just not how these teams operate. It's all based
on comps. Even if your hat is nicer than my hat,
if I bought my hat for thirty dollars and you go, hey,
I'll sell you this hat. It's a little nicer for

(14:50):
sixty dollars. That that becomes difficult. And that's where these
conversations just aren't black and white. The Vikings aren't morons.
They know how elite this player is, and Jefferson knows
obviously how good he is. But you start asking for
the moon, and that's part of negotiations. One team's you know,
out here, the other teams over here, and you try

(15:10):
to find some middle ground. And clearly, because there's been
several years, you know before that group of guys Debo,
DK and aj got those big contracts, aj Senz has
got a contract extension on top of that. Is that's
where the numbers, you know, are just a little weird.
And you've seen some other guys get contract extensions. To me,

(15:31):
it's less about the per year and more like how
much are you guaranteeing me? So I'm sure he wants
one hundred plus million dollars?

Speaker 3 (15:38):
Right?

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Nick Bosa last year got one hundred and twenty five
million dollars, most money ever for a non quarterback, and
we haven't seen a player quite of that level get extended,
but like there were already comps for that position. TJ.
Watta think got over ninety miles, Garrett was in the
hundred range, Joey Bosa was in the hunte So it's like, yeah,

(16:02):
I think I'm better the position inflation, the cap inflation.
It was a bold move on top of the previous numbers,
but it wasn't out of the realm. And that's where
I wonder if there's some disconnect here. Ultimately, Justin Jefferson
will be in Minnesota Viking Cam Hayward, who's been on
this podcast a couple times, this is one that gets

(16:22):
kind of complicated because he's an older player. He's holding out.
He sees the amount of money these d tackles are getting.
He knows his value to the team, team captain, Man
of the Year for the NFL, and I think the
Steelers go, well, you are thirty five, you were injured
last year. These can get very emotional. These are difficult
discussions and situations to figure out. Now, Ultimately, the closer

(16:45):
and closer you get for the season, like the one
move you have, like if Tua really wanted to get paid,
like I give him credit because he hangs his hat.
I mean a lot of it is intangibles, team leader.
Everyone likes him, knows the offense you start holding out,
I don't blame him, Like that is the business move.
That's what Zach Martin did last year. It's like, Zach,

(17:06):
we're paying you fourteen. Well I see all these other
guards getting sixteen. I want twenty. So he's like, I'm
not showing up, Like that is your one pitch. Not
an easy pitch to throw, but when you throw it,
you create a chaotic situation for the organization and put
leverage a little bit in your court. So I understand
what Cam's doing. That is the right business move. Just

(17:28):
fans can turn on you, right, justin Jefferson. No one's
like that's weird. Right, It's like, yeah, shit, he deserves
a lot of money. Tua did it, Like yeah, is
he good enough? Is he good enough? But this is
where like two was in the business of Tua, right,
that's the business you're in. You don't own a company,
you know, you don't have some other entity like your

(17:48):
business is you playing quarterback for them? So this is
not an easy situation. But we'll see over the next
twenty four hours. Any other names pop up. I'm sure
there will be. Cede Lamb would definitely be. You want
to keep an eye on OTAs. I just want to
hit on some things that I think are key going
into like this next month period of time. I think

(18:10):
first and foremost is all your top picks, which ideally
are going to contribute to you this season, your first
second round picks, and then you're gonna get a couple
of random other rookies. But they're really starting probably closer
to the third with the third group than they are
with the ones. Sometimes you know your rookies old school
coaches will put them with the two. Some just throw

(18:30):
them right in. Obviously, some of these quarterbacks, Bonnicks, Caleb
Williams just running with the ones. You got to mix
those guys in because they had rookie mini camp. They've
been traveling forever. They haven't been with the veteran players.
Now you're all under one umbrella. You're all on one team.
So this is not about there's no pads, there's no hitting,

(18:50):
there's no tackling. It's about taking the scheme from the
coaches and then seeing your new teammates and how to play,
And that to me is a huge because with the injuries,
with the amount you have to depend and I would
say the same the second year guys, some of them
your draft picks that spend time on practice squad, This

(19:10):
is a huge time for them to gain an advantage,
especially over some of these new rookies. You might have
been a guy last year that was drafted in the
third round to play guard, and then all of a
sudden they draft another guy in the third or fourth
round to play guard. You have a huge advantage during
this period of time because you know everything, especially if
you have the same coach or same coordinator, you have

(19:32):
a gigantic, gigantic advantage because of the knowledge, because of
what is asked of everybody at practice, the standard of
your team. So this is the time for you to
separate a little bit. I think you know in free agency,
when you give a guy a little bit of money,
that guy's going to start for you. This is not

(19:52):
a young player, a rookie player that you have to
at least, you know, get him to earn his stripes,
get him to earn the respect of the coaches and
the team. If I give a guy fifteen million dollars
a year at guard or detackle, or linebacker or whatever position.
That guy is my starter. So as the tech companies

(20:13):
like to say, in a very trendy word to onboard
that guy. Wherever you're coming from, this is how we
do it here. This is what we want you to do. Now,
here's the thing. When you sign a guy in free agency,
if he's been in the league four or five, however
many years, he's shown you what he does. So now

(20:34):
when you sign that guy, you should be asking him
to do what he does well. So it's it's kind
of a tough balance. Ideally he's just a plug and
play scheme fit. If he's not, that's where you get
problems with some of these free agencies signing. This is
not baseball. Hey, just sign a third baseman. He got
second in my lineup. Put him at third base, put

(20:55):
him a second lineup. We're off and runner. He's either
gonna hit and play the events or he's not. That's
obviously not how football works. You know, Hey, this guy
was more of a press man corner. Now you're asking
him to play more way, more zone concepts. This guy
played in Kyle's scheme that's all zone based runs. Now

(21:15):
we're doing more one on one power base. We're gonna
ask him to pull a lot. It's like, well, we
might have some issues, but ultimately you signed that guy
to be the starter. So when the ones come out
this week, next week, that guy's running with the ones
and getting him up to speed. The terminology is probably different.
It's like, hey, a new Spanish, you got to learn
Chinese now. Even though football, like the plays relatively are

(21:41):
gonna have a lot of similarities, the verbiage is different.
So getting him comfortable red might have meant one thing there,
and now green means what red used to mean. Right,
I'm just using something pretty rudimentary, But it's really that
it can be confusing, and this is a good time
to work out any confusing level. And then obviously the

(22:01):
team bonding stuff. This is the time of year where
if you have teams in the NBA or the NHL,
where you see all these guys together at boxes, slamming beers,
where you see these guys throwing out first pitches at
whatever the baseball stadium is, all in a box, you know,
firing down chicken strips and shot gunning a beer while

(22:22):
they're on the jumbo tron like that shit matters. Ultimately,
this is a team game and to do team bonding stuff.
Hopefully it just happens organically with your young players, your
older players, your new players. I do think that's important.
It really is. It doesn't make or break you if
you're not good enough. But it's pretty clear these teams

(22:43):
that win have pretty good cohesion, and that's something that
is on the GM because are you picking the right
type guys? Have you put a team together of like
minded individuals, because if you have, they'll get along. And ultimately,
for the most part, football teams a lot of guys
get along no matter what. But the closer they can

(23:04):
get during this time, especially with new faces, I think
the easier transition it is during training camp when it's
really hard and long and boring and monotonous and not
that fun. So this time of year is much more fun.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
Right.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
It's like three day work weeks. You're doing all sorts
of shit. On the weekend, you get long breaks. Coaches
are working, you know, the equivalent for them of nine
to fives. Now, the coaches that aren't like Andy Reid
or Mike Tomlin or some of these guys, it's a
little chiller if you have a new coach either a

(23:41):
new head coach or new coordinators. It's obviously a little
more complicated to implement the scheme, get everyone on the
same page. There is more work to be done mentally,
and that's where the meetings are really big, right because
you're installing all this stuff. You don't want to install
too much, but you don't want to install well, not enough.
You want to make sure they understand it. You don't

(24:03):
want to go from A to F when they don't understand.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
B and D.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
So this is just it's a cool time for the scouts.
They're kind of kicking back. But some of your new
position coaches, and definitely your coordinators, it's a new time
and obviously all the new head coaches, good time to
get your feet under you. You know, this is a
good time. You're running the entire team. So when you
see a headline, hey, so and so got in trouble

(24:28):
or so and so got injured, Well, if you were
the offensive coordinator and it was a defensive guy, that
was never your problem. Like Mike McDonald or Brian Callahan
with the Titans, when someone on the opposite side of
the ball had an issue, they didn't really have to
think about it. Pedal of the metal. Just focus on
what they were focusing on. That comes to your desk now,

(24:50):
and you were going to lead the team meeting, you
have to deal with something off the field. So just
getting a little bit hell. Just a guy having an
awful day, guy who broke up with his girlfriend and
is an awful mental space. These are human being young
human beings. So these guys better figured out and better
figured it out fast because the season comes. There's no

(25:14):
waiting around. It's full go okay. Some other just NFL
stories that I kind of found interesting. Michael Rubin, who
is the Fanatics CEO president, created the company which has

(25:37):
obviously become a powerhouse company when it comes to a peril,
has a little bit of a dispute going on with
Marvin Harrison Junior and Marvin Harrison Junior, these guys are
claiming that he signed a deal up to a million
dollars and he did not complete his end of the bargain.
He didn't do anything. And Marvin Harrison Senior, who scouting buddies,

(26:02):
told me he plays a huge role in all this,
Like the reason Marvin did nothing during the pre draft
process wasn't Marvin's idea it was pops, and which is fine.
It's not your normal, just like it wouldn't be like
my dad if I was an NFL player giving me
advice like that, You've never been around the NFL. This

(26:23):
guy's a Hall of Famer, but this could It's gonna
get interesting because I don't think fanatics, who is very,
very dependent on their deals with the leagues, on deals
with the players, would just randomly sue like I think
this is. It's gonna be fascinating to watch the way
this plays out. It's not going to impact him on

(26:43):
the field. But you know, Marvin Harrison senior man, he's
playing a pretty big role in his son's life, which
is a good thing, but it can be complicated when
business gets involved. There was a picture that went viral
because Dave or not Dave Rubin Michael Rubin. I think

(27:04):
David Rubin's a podcaster. Michael Rubin had what he does
every year when these guys do this rookie shoot in
Los Angeles. He has over the top rookies, mainly the quarterbacks.
I saw Malik Neighbors was there too, and he brings
like Tom Brady and Jay Z and it's cool. He
put out some clips of Tom given advice, Jay Z

(27:24):
given advice are all around like a probably a dinner table,
not a conference table, because it looked like it was
at his house. And there was a picture that kind
of went viral that the Patriots posted that Michael posted
that Drake May posted. Drake May is massive. Tom Brady's huge.

(27:44):
I think Tom Brady, I've walked around him, feels like
a six foot six I think technically at the combine
he measured in it like just a shade under six ' five.
He is a huge individual and Drake may look bigger
than him. Obviously Tom's skinnier now, but Drake May is
a massive, massive guy. And this gets back to betting

(28:04):
on the quote unquote intangibles or the tangibles, the size,
all that there is to work with. I understood it.
I understood it the whole time, and it's gonna be
it's gonna be fascinating to watch how the Patriots play
out with him total access. The NFL network, I've been
saying this for a long time, has just mailed it in.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Now.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
There's financial ramifications to this. I people often like the
NFL is making money hand over fist. How are they
just not trying with the NFL network. Well, yeah, if
one entity makes money, doesn't mean that you necessarily have
to keep pumping money into something else that is not
making money. I would consider myself, as we said in

(28:48):
the radio business, a p one, which is your most
loyal radio listeners, And I'm sure we have these now
on the podcast, people that listen to all the content.
A large percentage of people would be considered more casual.
They come in and they come out, depending on time,
depending on their schedule. Football is my life. It's how

(29:08):
I make a living. It's how I support my family.
It's how I put food on the table. I love it,
I think about it, I watch it. I never ever
watch NFL network ever. Now. I know Mike Yam who
hosted that show recently. He used to work at Pack twelve.
He's a stud. It sucks. There's a large percentage of

(29:32):
people that lose their job that aren't making much money,
production assistance people behind the scenes. But it's been pretty
clear for a while that the NFL does not give
a shit about this network. Good Morning Football, which I
think relative to their other properties, was relatively successful in
terms of ratings and people watching it, and had like

(29:53):
legit talent like Trager, Kyle Brandt. It's just on hiatus,
not going on. And I've said this over and over.
I noticed it at the gym. They just they're playing today.
I was at the gym this morning and I look
up and it's Steelers Titans. But not like from the
recent years. It was like when Jeff Fisher was the

(30:15):
Titans coach, which I actually if I was running the
network and we were doing a bunch of cost cutting.
Just replay games, replay cool games, like what the hell
is it? We own the we own the inventory. And
it's pretty clear that's what NFL Network's doing. If you
tell me they are not able to unload this network,
which is definitely up for debate. The ESPN and some
of these companies that they've tried to sell it to

(30:37):
have not pulled the trigger. I think you can just
run NFL games NonStop, and once the season starts, you
can just replay all the games for the weekend just
in order. I mean, just start bright and early Monday
morning and just play the crappier games to the good
games from Monday till Thursday. And it's pretty clear that's

(30:59):
probably what they're gonna do. And I kind of understand.
If people are not watching your network, that means you're
not making any money. And given that you have high
costs and you're paying people, probably losing money. So this
is not like some controversial business decision. Now you could
argue that is it important for NFL to have a network.

(31:20):
I would have said ten fifteen years ago, for sure,
in twenty twenty four, I don't think it matters at all.
Daniel Jones, You never know. It all matters when you
get injured, your recovery time. I saw the forty nine ers.
They do this Matt Mayoko, longtime beat writer for the Niners,
works I think with the team, and they put on

(31:40):
this big Dwight Clark like yearly. It's kind of a
round table. They have a bunch of famous players come back.
Steve Young was there, Alex Smith was there, party, they
were all on stage. Dray Greenlaw was also there, and
he's like, I just really started walking pretty recently. I
mean he was hurt three months ago torn achilles. Daniel

(32:00):
Jones was hurt relatively early in the season, and he's
already participating in seven on sevens.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Look at Aaron Rodgers first game of the season. He's
gonna be ready for OTAs. So there's gonna be a
ton of pressure on this guy. No one's gonna care
that last year he towards ACL. He can't be as
bad as he was last year. They got no shot.
I don't have high hopes, but he's going to be
one of the major stories in the NFL all season long.

(32:26):
He's the New York Jets or New York Giants starting quarterback.
And let's face it, most people think he sucks. Most
people think he fleeces the Giants in a contract and
just isn't any good. When that is the narrative on
your career, you're not any good and you're making a
lot of money. If you got last year was ugly,
you'd get even uglier this year. Okay, here with longtime

(32:56):
NFL executive and current author, because he is writing books
left and right, Football Done Right, Gridiron Genius, and I'm
pretty sure he's typing as we speak on something new.
Michael Lombardi, how are you doing.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
I'm great. No, I'm in a little bit of a
research phase. You know. I loved doing the research on
Football Done Right. That was a lot of fun. I
learned a lot about things I didn't know, you know,
And so this next book is kind of in the
early formula of stages. It's going to be about the

(33:32):
last five years from twenty fourteen to twenty nineteen at
the Patriots, when they went to three, they won three
super Bowls, went to four, lost the conference championship game.
I think you have to go back to the early
to the mid seventies of the Steeler dynasty to have
five of those really productive seasons that they had. So

(33:53):
I'm doing a lot of research on that, and it's
probably going to be at least two years before that
thing comes out. But it's fun to do the search,
go back and we live each year.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
I know you you are a football historian, and I
while I'm younger, I get offended sometimes when like younger
analysts or former players act like some of these guys
from back in the day couldn't play now. I remember
being a GA at Fresno State and meeting me and
Joe Green and Mike you know him. I mean, his

(34:23):
hands are big as a as a grizzly bear. If
you think that guy wouldn't dominate today, or you know,
going to Warriors games, and meeting Jerry West. He's not
six two guys, I mean he's six eight. He'd be fine.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Now, yeah, we have we don't appreciate it. But a
lot of that, John is the league doesn't really do
enough job of highlighting some of these guys you know
that were great. You know, we tend to think everything's
great today, and like, you know, use the example of
of Joe Green. I mean, Joe Green played at a
time where the three technique, the nose tackle, those guys

(34:57):
were really the dominant defensive lineman, whether in Merlin Olsen,
whether it was you know, Bob Lilly. You know, every
team had a tackle that could play the run but
could also rush the passer, and they were developing that.
And I think we've lost a little bit of that luster,
you know, because you know, the game shift a little bit,
you know, Alan Page, you know, you know, I mean

(35:20):
Larren Sapp was one of the elite players. I think
people tend to forget that as great as he was.
So yeah, I don't think we do a good enough job.
And some of the coaches too, I don't think we
give them enough credit. And I think that one of
the things I've learned over my career, a lot of
things I've learned is is the answers to most problems
are in the past. Everybody thinks that, you know, there's

(35:41):
going to be some new formation or some new element
or some new design, when you know, the nickel defense,
as I wrote about in Football Done Right, was invented
by Buddy Parker, who can't get in the Hall of Fame.
The two minute offense and defense was invented by Buddy Parker,
who can't get in the Hall of Fame, and he
won two titles with the Detroit Lions. So a lot
of it, too is we don't honor those you know,

(36:02):
like Buddy Parker was up for a vote this year
and didn't get in, And like I wrote about in Gridiron,
we don't have a criteria for it. Like we have
no criteria for what's who's a Hall of Fame coach.
We have a subjective criteria he is or he isn't.
If I were to say to you, you know, is
Pete Carroll a Hall of Fame coach? People would say, well,
he won a Super Bowl, But you know, I don't know.

(36:24):
Pete Carroll surely is an NFL he's you know, he's
won a Super Bowl, he had a high winning percentage,
he took his team to the playoffs, he lost to
Super Bowl. You know, but there's so many different you know, everybody,
you know, George Allen's in the Hall of Fame didn't
win a Super Bowl, only coach ten years, seventy percent
winning percentage, and Mike Holmgreen can't get in, Like it
makes no sense, which is probably why most of the

(36:47):
people that vote for the Hall of Fame didn't read
Football done right.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
It's funny how the league changes when when I was
in the league, you know, a third down back was
you know, just an extra piece, a guy that could
quote unquote catch the ball or the nickel corner was
just kind of a throwing guy who could play in
more of a confined area and had to be able
to stop the run. Now, if you can't catch the
ball out of the backfield, you're not on a roster,

(37:12):
right if you if you don't have multiple nickel corners,
you've got no chance. We talk a lot about where
things are going because the rule changes are not going
to be rolled back to physicality. Would you argue it's
only going to become more and more spread.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Out, Well, I think spread outs also creates problems. Like
let's talk about Chicago for a second. Right, they drafted
Doomsay in the first round. You know, they don't have
a really elite three technique, they don't have an elite
inside player, but they chose to go with another receiver
who's going to play in the slot. I think, you know,
we no longer define anything by downs. Everything's by personnel groupings,

(37:49):
and so when you want to spread people out, your
tackles have to be really good. Like Darnell Wright, the
first round pick, ten pick overall two years ago, He's
got to be a really good player if they're going
to be able to do that. You know, if he's
the right tackle, and who's the left tackle in Chicago.
So the more you spread, the more vulnerability you put
on the quarterback, the more ability the system has to

(38:09):
give the quarterback answers. I'm not sure that every every
coordinator has that solve. You know, there's always a beater somewhere.
I just feel like, you know, I feel like the
game is going to go back to being more under center.
I think it's going to come back to a little
bit of an older school mentality, and only because I
think it'll allow more balance within the framework of the offense.

(38:31):
You mentioned nickelbacks. Look, when I first started in the league,
it was the back's criteria was run, catch, block. We
graded a running back like we didn't grade, you know,
Barry Sanders on his blocking ability. We graded him on
his running, you know. But today a running back is
block first. If you can't pass protect, you're not playing.

(38:54):
You're just not playing catch and run. Running is the
last thing the back does because you can't put him
on the field if he doesn't catch it, if he
doesn't block. So I think you have to stay in
tuned to that, and we have. We're moving away from
from first down, second and third down to what personnel
groups on the field. So when you draft the Doomsay,

(39:14):
you're saying to everybody, we're going to be an eleven
team because you got Keenan Allen and you've got DJ Moore.
And if a Dooonsay standing next to Evra Flus did,
was it really worth the first pick and over all
the eighth pickover all night pick. So I think you
have to think of it that way.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
You know, last time I talked to you, your son
was working for the Raiders and he now works for
the forty nine ers. And I know you've talked about
back when you worked in Cleveland the second time and
you interviewed Kyle Shanahan for the offensive coordinator.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
Position, you were blown away.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
You're like, this guy would be our head coach.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
Should have been Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah, So you talk about old school football. Obviously the
Harbab Brothers or throwback group. I would say Kyle for
being a quote unquote younger coach is definitely a throwback.
His mentality so far. You're talking to your son that experience,
it's being around that operation. I heard you talking about this,
and it's been well reported that Kyle tapes everything, so

(40:06):
every meeting room is videoed and has a life. He
can listen to everything from his office, which you know,
I think around the league people be like what, but
he just wants to know what's going on, and everyone
says it's actually works very well. Everyone's on the same page.
How's your son's experience been so far?

Speaker 3 (40:24):
I think it's been great. He's been really blessed in
his career. You know, he starts with Belichick and learns
personnel and then he you know, works with Jim Harball.
Then he comes back at the Jets and then he
goes back with Bill with Josh McDaniels. He knows that
system and now he's with Kyle. Look that taping thing
started with Walsh back in nineteen eighty six. I was taping.

(40:44):
I can still remember John Putting watching Bill install the
game plan when we were getting ready to go back
to New York and play the Giants in a playoff game.
And I was up there taping it and Coach was
going over who we were going to attack in the secondary,
how we were going to a tackle, and you know,
Herbie Walsh was a safety. We were going to really
go after a UCLA safety. And the first, I think

(41:08):
the second play of the game, we run a slant
with Jerry Rice, who gets one on one with Herbie
makes a mistres like Coach said he would do in
the tape, and then he fumbles the ball when he
changes it from one hand to the other and it
goes through the end zone and then we got off
to a forty nine to three ass kicking. But that
taping was really important because it allowed coaches and allowed

(41:28):
players to if they missed a meeting or they missed
something in a meeting, they go back and watch it,
and it really kept things in tune. And I think
it's really important. As I mentioned on my podcast, if
I were back in the league, I would take every
personnel meeting everyone, I would take Draft Day and I
would go back and watch Draft Day again, because there's
so many things that happened that our memories have a

(41:50):
different way of going through it. Like what I think
about I just mentioned Warren Sap. When I think about
the Warren Sap Draft about you know, We're sitting there
at the ninth pick in the first round. We're talking
about taking you know, Kyle Brady at the tight end
because we needed one and we had moved up, and
you know, and Brady goes right in front of us
after you know, the Jets took Johnny Mitchell the year before,

(42:11):
they come back and take Brady the next year. And
so there we are sitting with Warren sat and we
have this huge trade, Like I would have loved to
have seen that, just to go through it. And then
later when we moved down, we made a great trade.
We moved down to the bottom of the first we're
debating between Curtis Martin and and a linebacker at Craig
Powell from Ohio State, and the rationale, how we got

(42:33):
to it, that horrible mistake and we take Martin at
twenty seven, twenty eight, whatever it was, we would have
gotten the Hall of Fame back. Instead we got a
guy that didn't play. And you know, and that those
are the things you need to analyze. And I think
people get so caught up with well, you're just looking
a second guests. No, you're looking to learn.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
You know, it's funny the draft happens and there's so
much hype around the high picks. And I remember being
a training camp Parties rookie year and i've because of
his draft status, they just kind of inserted Trey Lance
as the starter. But you could tell Kyle was a
little uncomfortable and the players were uncomfortable. And this little guy,
he's taking third string reps, is just making plays and

(43:12):
in the games, in the preseason games he was and
I understand it was second half preseason, but he made
he was good, and he made the team and kind
of the rest is history. You know, Jared Goff just
got a massive contract. Yeah, and if you look at
the numbers, you know, I mean, parties in line, like,

(43:32):
you know, talk to your son. How much they value
this guy and the emotional maturity and obviously his physical gifts.
But Jared Goff can't move and he doesn't have the
biggest arm. H What do you think is the reason
for brock Purty's success? Is it simply Kyle I've defended
him and I know you have to just watch the
guy play. I mean, he's a really good player.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
He's got great instincts, his arms tied to his feet.
He you know, he can anticipate throws. Look, you use
the word, you know they trust them, But just watch
the tape. I mean you watched the tape. They allow
him to do things within the framework of that offense
that shows they have confidence in his ability to make
the place they're not calling place to protect them. I

(44:14):
think we don't do you know, you haven't scouted. Probably
see this as I see it. But so many times
during gains, the announcers don't understand that the coach is
protecting the quarterback, not being conservative. There's a huge difference
between that. You know, earlier in the year, Matt Lafleur
was protecting Jordan Love. By the end of the year,

(44:34):
he was allowing them to play in the game, and
so there's a difference between how they call the game
of what they do. And I think that you can
see from Kyle's play calling they're not protecting this kid
at all. They're letting them play, and they should because
he's really good. You know, we just have a hard times.
There's certain movements that I can't explain. You know, there's
the Justin Fields movement that has created the sensation in

(44:57):
the NFL that no matter you know, how you look
at the evidence, even on the analytical side, you can't
get people to believe that he's not a great quarterback
yet and there's no evidence that he is. He's won
ten games. And then there's the Trey Lance conglomerate that
just keeps going that nobody wants to buy into that.

(45:17):
You know, he's not a rhythm thrower. And I don't
understand how brock Perdy isn't, like Kurt Warner, a great
success story, but for some reason, nobody wants to acknowledge
brock Perdy except for the forty nine ers.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
I think the moment you don't get drafted high, especially
way down, you know, in the fifth, sixth, seventh round,
no one wants to embrace you. People forget people think
Brady early, well, early on in his career. Remember he
was not as good as Peyton, even though it was
pretty clear early like the guy was pretty good. You know,
if Trey Lance had done what brock Perdy did his

(45:52):
first couple of years, we'd be talking about him like
the next John Elway.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
Oh my god, we'd be It'd be would be it
would be Tim Tebow nausea. It would be over the top.
I mean, you know, I mean, it would be brutal.
We'd have to read about it every single day, just
like we have to read about that Miami signed Odell
Beckham and Stefan Diggs is in Houston, like they're getting
the career. They're getting two players that you know, we
don't turn the clock back. We just think they're still great.

(46:18):
Jordan Love.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
You know, the second half of the season, it's hard.
You watch them, You're like, holy shit. But from a
financial standpoint, my take has always been I would play
it another couple of months. I'd have no problem extending
him during the season, but I'd like to see a
little more before we just give some enormous contract on
a really, really short body of work. What would be

(46:42):
your approach if you were running the packers when it
came to because you might be able to get them
on quote unquote a little discount if you threw a
lot of money on him, But if it didn't go
well and he took a step back, you'd be in
a little trouble.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Well, you know, you have him this year, and you
got the franchise tech next year, So you have him
for two years at you know, whatever number you want
to at. Right, So you got them at this year
because they redid the they redid the fifth year, and
then then you have the franchise number. And let's be clear,
you know, if Golf's getting fifty three million, you know,
then what's Prescott going to get? You know what is

(47:15):
you know what what's the next guy in line going
to get? You know? And well Purdy, you know all
of them. I'm Purty's got two more years and he
can't touch his contract, you know, So he got two
more years, plus they have a franchise number they can
get Purty. So they got essentially three years built in
there to get a contract, and it's only going to
go up. But look, let's face it, the revenue streams

(47:36):
are going up too. I think I would be rather patient,
But I see enough of love that you believe that
he's going to be a good player. I don't think
it's about the scoreboard. I think it's about really, if
you're Brian Guducus, is you want to be able to
see one of the Walls quotes, which is the second
year the players in the system, he becomes better. That's

(47:58):
what happened to Kyler Murray. Right, Kyler Murray's second year,
he didn't really get better. He had the really good
beat where he's running around making a lot of plays
on loose plays. But once people started to rush him
the right way where they didn't let their ends run
up the field, where they closed the pocket down, they
forced him to his left if he had to get out,
then all of a sudden he wasn't the same player.

(48:19):
And so I think what you want to see is
is what steps the love take the second year is
in the system, And once you see that, then I
don't think you should hold back. You should go.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Okay, a couple of things on the draft. Do you
think the Patriots clearly they you know, we're very dead
set on taking a quarterback. But we're even more validated
when Brian Davel, who worked with Josh Allen, and then
Kevin O'Connell both really wanted Drake May that it's you
can't make that move as a personnel guy if you
already liked the guy, and those are the two guys
that really like your guy as well, it's a no brainer.

(48:51):
You just sick there, no matter that. I mean, you're
getting offered eleven twenty three in the future one. That
is a lot.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
It is. But you know, now the Giants claim they
were they're trying to trade to to get Joe Allen,
I mean, but then they made no attempt to trade
with the Cardinals to get it. It's unbelievable, like they
think we're actually stupid. You know. Look, I think they
were going to pick them, whether Brian liked him or not.
I think that if you know Elliott and you know
his background, size, speed, you know, those are the things

(49:19):
I mean, Mays and tangibles. He'll work hard. You know.
Sometimes the job of a scout is to see what
other people don't. And if you just grade production then
that's one thing, but you have to be able to
see and visualize something moving forward, and I didn't see
maybe what Elliott saw as deeply in May, where Brian

(49:39):
did or Dave Ball did, or Kevin O'Connell did. But
I think to me that was going to be the pick,
no matter if they wanted them or not. There was
no way they could trade that. There wasn't an The
alternative would have been McCarthy, and they had no way
of knowing they can get McCarthy. You end up being
like a boat out at sea, and you without without
a compass, you don't know if get back. So let's

(50:01):
hypothetically say they went to eleven. Right now, you know
that nobody had any thought that Atlanta was going to
take Pennox at eight, and so now you're trying to
get back to get you what happens if you come
out of there with all these picks and no quarterback?
Where are you?

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Did you see the clip going viral of Jade Daniels
and Drake May both throwing basically the same seam route,
and Jaden's ball was almost in the guy's hands before Drake,
because of his loopy release, kind of got rid of it.
And it's just and I'm all four taking a big
swing on a project. But now you have the project
and kind of have to fix it. I mean part
of Josh Allen the project or Patrick Mahomes was then

(50:36):
that period of time of developing them. And you look
at the Patriots you go, well, new regime. This coach
was doing media five years ago. He's a linebacker seven
years ago. I mean it's this is going to be
a big, big time challenge for that organization with this player,
is it not?

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Well? The other thing is too, is you know when
you bring Patrick Mahomes into it, right, you knew that
Andy Reid was going to be the guy that was
detailing the player development of Patrick Mahomes. But in New England,
the detailed player development is coming from Alex van Pelt.
And what happens see, I don't think we asked this
question enough. What has to be true for this, for

(51:15):
this to be successful? What has to be true for
Drake may to be a great player. And part of
what has to be true is Alex van Pelt has
to do a really good job of development in this fundamentals,
techniques and getting him groved into the offense. That has
to be true because if he doesn't, then he's going
to be all over the board. That's the challenge, right.

(51:35):
And so because Mayo doesn't coach offense, defense, or the
kicking game, that he just is basically in charge of
the team. You could potentially see a new offensive coordinator
if things don't go well in a year or two,
and now where are you and now you're changing things again.
That's why player development is so reliant upon who the

(51:55):
head coaches and what the systems are. And when you're
hiring coaches to put their system in and the organization
doesn't have one, then you have a lot of propensity
to make mistakes.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
I thought one of the most laughable pre draft kind
of conversations was the Chargers taking a wide receiver. It's like,
have any of you guys watched this guy operate for
fifteen years?

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Larry?

Speaker 1 (52:19):
He might have passed on Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson
if they were there, if he thought the offensive lineman
was good enough, especially in this wide receiver class. I
just don't think Pete like we've all watched him win
big without superstar wide. When's the last time Michigan had
a star wide receiver?

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Right?

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Well, he wonted San Francisco with fifty year old Randy Moss.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Look, Bill Wall said, the last position you chicked on
your team as the wide receiver position. He's in the
Hall of Fame.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Has that changed a little bit though, you think.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
No, I don't think it's changed at all. I mean,
look at look at green Bay. Look at green Bay.
Who's got a better receiving core than green Bay has?
I mean, think about it. You know, everybody says, well,
the quarterback. You know, the receivers make the quarterback. Look
at green Bay's receiving room. That's pretty freaking good, you know.
And so they're the least amount of money spent on
wide receivers in the league. You know, they don't seem

(53:08):
to have a problem throw in the football. I don't
think it's changed at all. I think it's re enhanced
itself because the offensive lineman is so critical. Look, everybody
sits there and says, you know, the receiver makes the quarterback. Now,
I know arm On, but he was a fifth round pick.
He got paid a lot of money. But you know,
you tell me how great the receivers are on Detroit.
They're good. Hockinson's good. I mean, they're good. They got players,

(53:30):
don't get me wrong, But the reality of the situation
is is that they are. I mean the floor more tight,
the porter that they get, you know, they get open,
they make plays, the golf gets in the ball. I
don't think it's changed. I mean, look again, if you're
Chicago and you can't protect Caleb Williams that he's going

(53:51):
to get hit and you're an eleven, I don't understand it.
But look, you get applauded if you take a wide
receiver today because most of the people doing the apping
are Madden fans. They want to play in their it's
a Madden game when the game is won by the
teams that can win the line. I mean, Kansas City's
traded Tyreek Hill. They've won two Super Bowls. Nobody talks

(54:12):
about it. I mean people are talking about Kansas City
is going to go back and they're going to win
another Super Bowl and like they act like, oh, well,
they got this great receiving room. No they don't. They
got Patrick Mahomes. That's the receiving room.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
People ask me a lot, is there anything with the
Rice situation that the Chiefs could have done? And I said, well,
this isn't college. The moment the season ends, you got
some time. And this goes back to the draft where
you got to feel comfortable with the player. It's not
like they can hold his hand in March, April and
even early May if he's not around the facility. What's

(54:50):
your thoughts on just that situation. When you get a
player with some question marks in the past, the moment
the season ends, you kind of just hold onto your ass.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Well, they've been lucky with this John, They've been really
lucky with it. They take Tyreek Kill when he was
on nobody's board. I mean maybe he might have been
on Reggie McKenzie's board at the Raiders. I think that
was the only other team he was on their board
because of his behavior at Oklahoma State got thrown out
it he couldn't even roll an acron, couldn't enroll at
West Alabama, but he got drafted by the Chiefs. You know,
Kelsey had some issues in terms of off the field,

(55:20):
which obviously were wrong, but they took him in the
third round, right, you know, And they've been able Chris Jones.
The only reason he's the second round pick is because
some people thought he wasn't a hard you know, all
the things off the field, they've been very fortunate of
how they built their team of managing this and it's
a credit to them. And so you know, whatever Rice

(55:41):
is within his background was probably there at SMU and
they chose that they felt that they could deal with it. Now,
you know, if they don't have Rice, I mean they
take Tony and give up a draft pick. Now Tony,
you know, Tony's a guy that again, does he love football?
Is he going to make their rooms? So now you've
got Hollywood Brown as their receiver, and you got Worthy

(56:01):
who's one hundred and sixty pounds. Is he going to
be a full time player? And he got Kelsey at
thirty six years old. You tell me that receiving room
is really good. Hollywood Brown's always been talked about as
being a number one guy, but he's never produced that
way at all.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
I think they're a defensive team now, right, That's right.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
That's right, That's exactly right they are. And that's the
point of this conversation is is that they've changed who
they are. They're going to win up front. You know,
they have a huge, huge question market left tackle, but
they're going to get Pajeco more. I mean Pachecko was
carrying the bout seven more times in the playoffs. After
the Christmas Day game, Pachecko's load management increased by seven

(56:38):
carries a game compared to earlier in the year.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Locker room dynamics. I know something you being around Bill
Forever talked a lot about something that Falcons clearly didn't value.
And Bill, We've all talked a lot about the Cousins
situation from a financial standpoint, but from a locker room standpoint.
He can't practice in OTAs. So who's out there taking
the reps with a bunch of young, impressionable offensive skill guys. Pennix.

(57:05):
Pennix is not some project. He's like a six year
starter in college football. The locker room dynamics and Cousins,
the high character guy who's historically a little sensitive, doesn't
this have the chance to get really weird, really fast internally,
no matter what Raheem Morris can do to talk to
the guys.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think to me, it's about the quarterbacks.
Personality has to come out in the team. It's in
Kansas City, it's in Cincinnati, it's in Buffalo, right, and
so you know, I think there's no question that it's
hard to have two leaders. I mean, Walsh did this
in San Francisco. Remember he rotated Steve Young and Joe Montana,
and finally Ronnie Lott went to him and said, Bill,

(57:45):
we need a starter, we need one guy. We need
to know who we're counting on. And he went with
Montana and he trained him after the next season. So yeah,
this never has worked having two quarterbacks, and no matter.
Everybody thinks the second quarterbacks better than the first, and
most I mean, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure you
know the backup quarterback is probably most people at the

(58:06):
Giants think Tommy the Veto might be better than pay
Dot Daniel Jones. I don't, but I'm just saying that,
you know there could be. So you just created a
situation and then you didn't have It's two years in
a row. Now you don't help your defense at all. Like,
are you watching the NFL? Are you watching the NFL?
Do you study the NFL to understand what wins games?

(58:29):
You know? Forget about you know, you draft a running
back who's a really good player, but you had you
had Algier there average five yards of character. You didn't
need another running back. Now I'm sure they're gonna blame
Arthur Smith for this. But the reality of it is
is you passed a legitimately great three technique, a legitimately
great three technique in Jalen Carter. Now you live right
down the street from them. If you don't, if you

(58:50):
didn't like his character because you know more about anybody, Okay,
maybe that's the case, but I'm not sure that that is.
And then this year you pass you know, you passed
Latua or you pass Byron Murphy. I mean, those are
two legitimate defensive front guys. So now you're saying you're
twenty ninth in the National Football League and forcing turnovers
last year, and you're just one player away. Kirk Cousins

(59:12):
is going to fix all that for you, and you
take Michael Pennix. I mean, where's the team building here?

Speaker 1 (59:18):
You know, the Jets and the Giants have been mainly
terrible for the last decade plus. Obviously, John Marr is
an impressive guy, but it's safe to say he got
pretty heavily involved when it came to Daniel Jones. There
was a story recently about the Jets wanting to hire
a guy over Nathaniel Hackett. To me a coach or
GM if you want a new offensive coordinator, you would
just fire your offensive coordinator hire a guy that feels
like a Woody Johnson problem. Do you think the New

(59:40):
York teams have an owner meddaling issue right now?

Speaker 3 (59:45):
Well, I think the Jets clearly do. I mean when
he came when Woody Johnson came out and said that,
you know, we've got trading Zach Wilson, and he had
comments on all that. Yeah, I do. I think they have.
The Jets are different in the sense that they were
trying to manage a problem. They're trying to make everybody happy.
They were trying to make their offense happy by hiring
somebody over Aaron Over over Nathaniel Hackett. But but make

(01:00:09):
Aaron Rogers happy by not firing Nathaniel Hackett. And you can't.
Nobody gets made happy anywhere. The Giants, I think have
just been John has run the team. I've been saying
this forever, and I like John. John's a really nice man,
a genuinely nice human being. But I think it's a
family run business, and I think they have a hard

(01:00:31):
time of being objective about what they're doing, and they
fall in love with players. And when they gave Daniel
Jones that money last year for no reason other than
the vindication of that they drafted them sixth overall. It
was a mistake. I mean, if you go back and
ask one simple question, why do we win and why
do we lose? The Giants when they went to the

(01:00:53):
playoffs didn't win because Daniel Jones was good. They won
because they managed the game. They won in three dimensions.
They played good offense and defense, cookkicking, get but he
didn't carry the team. He didn't carry the team whatsoever.
And who was going to sign him to that contract anyway?
Who were you competing against Nobody?

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
I think if they got a redo, you would have
to give Saquon Barkley an extension because the running backs
make such little money. It might have been thirty five
million guaranteed franchise Daniel Jones and you would have been
off it this year, and you would have still had
the dynamic player at a relatively cheap price because of
the you know, the deflation in running back contracts, and
be rid of Daniel Jones instead. If you're stuck with

(01:01:33):
this contract, I don't know about you. My I think
they're going to be pretty bad. I mean, I think
they're going to really struggle. They don't have a quarterback.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
You and I both know that. You know somebody's going
to have a high pick next year, right, I mean
not everybody's going ten and seven. Somebody's going to be bad.
And look, when you go through it, I had this
in my notes here. You know, when you go through
all the quarterback in the white you know when you
look at Daniel Jones's inability to throw the ball down

(01:02:03):
the field, which has been horrible. Right, He's never averaged
John He's never averaged over over seven yards per tentpt
in his career. He's never averaged over seven yards per
attempt in his career. So you're asking a he doesn't
throw the ball down the field. And there's a thousand
reasons why he can't throw the ball down the field.

(01:02:27):
But you can't win with a quarterback who won't throw
the ball. It's one of my biggest concerns that I
was a huge, huge I was a huge Trevor Lawrence fan.
But Lawrence doesn't throw the ball up the field either.
It's a huge concern. But one of the things is
Larren Sharp put this out and you know this is
based off of clutch quarterbacks with the last five minutes

(01:02:48):
since two thousand, okay, and you have to have at
least forty five minimum attempts in this category, and when
you go through it, I mean, Daniel Jones is forty
second out of fifty six. Davis Mills is actually ahead
of them, Mac Jones is ahead of them, you know,
Mike Lennon, Andy Dalton's ahead of him, Carson Wentz is

(01:03:10):
ahead of him, Kenny Pickett's actually ahead of him. So, like,
I don't understand how anybody thinks that this guy is
going to be good and that he's coming off of
a neck injury. I think it's a problem. I don't
think they're good either. I think they're changing what they're
doing defensively. They want to play Tampa, they want to
play Ben, but don't break. They're going to be trying
to stay within the game and not blitz and do

(01:03:32):
all that. Okay, but at some point you want to
get off the field. You got to play Manda Mann
and you got to have much for the past.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Totally agree. I went back and look at some clips
of bo Nicks the other day, and I was around
Derek for a little bit at Fresno State and obviously
when Jimmy came out watched some of his college stuff,
I see some similarities with those two guys. And historically
that type player usually went somewhere between thirty and fifty,
kind of in that range. In this new world we
live in, he ends up going in the top fifty team.

(01:04:01):
But why can't that work? Well, why wouldn't he work
with Sean Payton When you look at some of these guys,
I mean, Jaden Daniels is going to a defensive head
coach with Cliff Kingsbury, who I know. He gets a
lot of hype. It seems like a nice guy, but
he's not really my style of offensive coordinator. You've got
Drake May going to a defensive head coach, even Caleb
Williams going to a defensive head coach. This guy gets

(01:04:22):
to go to Sean Payton and his skill set, accuracy, timing,
getting rid of the ball. Actually came away thinking everyone's
talking a bunch of crap about this pick. I'm like,
I actually think it might have a chance to have
a little success.

Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
Well, I have faith in Sean Payton. He's developing the player. Again,
it goes back to who's developing the player? And that's
the critical component of this whole conversation is who is
doing that and Sean's going to do what's right for
the offense, what's right for the quarterback. One of the
things people don't understand about Shawn's offense is what he
couldn't get Russell to do is to he programs it

(01:04:58):
so the quarterback is I don't want to call him,
but there's a level of roboticness into play. You move
your feet to this area, you throw the ball here.
Everything his feet armed coordinated, which is what bo Nix
was really good at doing. You could see it in
org tape. His feet and his arm were tied together.
And so because of it, you know Sean's going to
call the game and so that he sets him up

(01:05:19):
for success, and I think it will work. I'm look.
I think what the biggest misconception is is every you know,
every when you say a quarterback has to be managed,
you know that that's like a knock. It's not every
quarterback with the even Patrick Mahomes at time last year
turned the ball over wait too much. They cut back

(01:05:41):
on that. You got to run the right system for
the player to enhance his skill set. You know, and
then the player looks better. You know, look at GOFF
and the Detroit system, where that when GoF was playing
in the RAMS system. What's the difference between Golf and
Detroit and GOFF in Los Angeles? The line in the
go if GoF gets hit earlier in a game, it

(01:06:02):
ain't going to be good. Whether you pay them fifty
three million or whether you pay them thirteen million. You
got to protect GoF. You got to protect GoF, and
you got to give golf and you've got to protect golf,
and you've got to give them answers. And if the
and where the RAMS were spending money, that line started
to fall apart. And when they didn't have that, you know,
he started getting hit and you know that bothered him.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
I'm gonna get you out of here on this. I
get asked a lot by young people, as I'm sure
you do, just just career advice, just big picture stuff.
And you've had a lot of success in your career.
You've been around arguably the most successful people in the
history of the NFL. Your sons are working at a
high level, you know, and my take always is the
faster you can do what you're passionate about because you're
going to have to work to be successful at whatever

(01:06:46):
a lot. So it's so much easier to work when
you enjoy what you're doing, because eventually work becomes work.
When people ask like, hey, I'm young, I'm not quite
sure I want to work in football, or you know,
I don't really love my job. I what's just a
good just big picture advice you try to give to

(01:07:06):
younger people trying to make their way in this crazy world.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
So find your passion early, don't worry about making money,
and remember that wisdom doesn't come from experience, it comes
from learning and education. And become an educated football person
and study the game, study the history of the game,
learn the game from all out levels, not just from

(01:07:32):
one point of view. And you've got to keep learning
the game every single day because if you don't, it's
going to passion. And I think that's really what it
comes down to. I think you have to be willing
to sacrifice short term money for long term gain.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Do you think that's a similarity that most successful people have.
They're not as consumed young with money. It's about the
big picture.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
You got to have a passion, right, You got to
believe in what you're doing. You got to love it
because you're you know, like you're going to go to
work and it's not going to be fun some days
where you know, because you're losing because of the outside noise.
It's not because it's not fun. You have to listen
to the outside noise. The people that have no idea
what they're talking about that they have always opinions.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Well, Michael, I appreciate the time and thanks a lot.
Have a great week and you enjoy the summer.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Appreciate it. Thank you, John, Okay, thanks to Lombardi for
coming on.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Appreciate everyone listening. Hopefully everyone's having a good week and
I will talk to you tomorrow. The volume