June 13, 2024 • 42 mins
Colin is joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” to break down the Celtics win over the Mavericks in Game 3!
They start with the Mavericks inability to match up with the Celtics (4:30) and Jaylen Brown’s ascension to a 2nd tier superstar in the league (7:30). Then they focus on Luka Doncic being a complete liability on the defensive end of the floor (13:00) and why it’s nearly impossible to win a title when your star can’t hang on defense (23:00).
Next, they discuss why Jayson Tatum is the perfect star for this Celtics squad (25:00) and why we’ve possibly underestimated how great Boston is (27:00).
Finally, they discuss the life and legacy of Jerry West and his impact on the history of the league (32:00) and why the Celtics were just too good NOT to win the title this year (43:00)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 3 (01:03):
All right, welcome to Hoops Today, here at the Volume.
Happy Wednesday, everybody. This NBA Finals Game three Instant Reaction
was brought to you by Chase Freedom Unlimited. How do
you cash back as usual. We've got Colin Coward here
to break it all down. Kind of a funky game.
Poor zingis out to start, a lot of attacking the
rim for Dallas, getting easier shots around the basket, but
(01:25):
that classic Boston driving kick attack and excellent defense gets
a big What was whether they were up twenty one
in the early fourth quarter, A little bit of a
classic Boston meltdown, a bunch of bad isolation possessions. Dallas
gets going a little bit, but at the end Luca
fouls out. Boston just seeming It kind of reminded me
of that Pacers series where they just kind of took
control of the game late with a few good defensive
(01:48):
possessions and a few quality driving kicks, and all of
a sudden, the Celtics are up three to zero in
the final. So Colin, what's your biggest takeaway after Game
three tonight?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, well, I mean, you can't be a lobsided team
and thempletely lobsided. When Shaq and Kobe were winning championships,
or Michael and Scottie, there were a lot of helpers.
I mean, good God, you could go to Ron Harper
could drop twenty and coup coach and Kerr and Packson.
You know, there were just other guys that could contribute.
I mean the first half, it was fifty one fifty
(02:19):
at half, and it was Boston against Luca and Kyrie.
So you just I think you just can't be that lobsided.
And I also think it's to your point. So my
first takeaway is it's just too much. I thought I
wrote this down on the fourth quarter. Luca looked cooked,
and he's not a good defensive player, but you know
he's He's just he doesn't slide quick enough, he doesn't
(02:42):
get in great position, and he can complain a couple
of times in the first half, he complained so much
that he got behind on defense and got burned. But
I think what we're finding out is Dallas had the
things that they did against Minnesota, they just can't do
against Boston. We saw him beat an old team, a
big team. They don't have the personnel to match up
(03:05):
on either end of the floor.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
They just don't.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
This is just a mismatch, and I think it starts
begging the question is what do we do with Boston.
This is one of the great runs by a team ever.
Is it an Eastern Conference that's weak, or have we
undervalued just how good their seven person rotation. You know,
if Porzingis and Horford are off the bench, that's a
(03:28):
pretty good seven, right.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I think Boston's really really good, and I think a
couple of underrated elements they have, with exception of some
brief stretches. They had an ugly stretch in the middle
of Game one, they had an ugly stretch obviously in
the early fourth quarter here in Game three. But they've
been playing a lot of grown up basketball, which is
something they were a little bit inconsistent with. Over the
course of the regular season. Both Jalen Brown and Jason
(03:52):
Tatum have understood their job, which is get the defense
in rotation just so that everyone can play with an advantage.
And then a big part of it, too is Jalen
Brown's rise. We you know, there's been so much talk
about Tatum, and there's no doubt that, like I think
the fact that his jumper has been so often he's
having like a really bad jump shooting playoff run. I
pulled this out on my show the other day, but
this is the fourth consecutive season where we've seen a
(04:13):
decline year over year from on his jump shooting, and
so he's kind of just like going through something with
his jump shot that's messing with parts of this game.
But I think the major story is less about like
Tatum being lower, but more about Jalen's rising into that tier.
I think you could, like if you it used to
be for me that Jalen Brown was in that third
tier of stars. He wasn't one of the best guys
(04:35):
in the league. He wasn't in that list of like
all the flawed superstars. He was something beneath that. And
basically the entire second half of the season, in this
entire playoff run, he's been playing at Jason Tatum's level
right up there as one of those that second tier
of stars in the league, and that just is another
infusion of talent that just makes it that much harder
(04:55):
to deal with. And like again, like I do want
to talk about Lucas defense, and I think it's an
important kind of discussion about his personal development, But I
want to start by just kind of just pointing out
that Boston is optimizing themselves. They're playing to the best
that they are capable of with this group, and that's
what makes them so difficult to beat. I do think
you made a good point about the matchups though, Like
Dallas did get an old injured Clippers team, a Thunder team, which,
(05:20):
by the way, pushed them pretty damn hard, but they're
young and that some of their younger players really struggled
on the offensive end. And then Minnesota, as we discussed
that nauseum was just a nightmare matchup, Dallas was a
nightmare matchup for them because they could protect the rim,
and that's a huge weakness for a team in Minnesota
that was literally seventeenth on offense in the regular season.
(05:40):
So they finally ran into a team that could actually
push their specific weaknesses. And I think that's probably one
of my biggest takeaways from this entire postseason run, is like,
you have to be able to win different ways, you
have to be able to play different ways, you have
to be able to beat different types of teams. And
Dallas was good enough to beat the matchups that got
out out in the West, but they were not good
(06:01):
enough to beat a team that could really spread them
out and test their perimeter defense.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I mean, I think one of the reasons I always
considered Jalen sort of a second tier guy, not a third.
But I think it's a little like d Wade is
that d Wade could score twenty five. It was never beautiful,
a lot of mid range playing, way bigger. You know,
he punched way above his weight physically. Most of the
great scorers Michael and Byrd Kareem though not pretty dominant.
(06:33):
They either have one or two go to shots or
they're pretty I mean Carmelo was pretty offensively Steph. Historically,
the great scorers have just either been unique or they
just can do something nobody else can. D Wade and
Jalen Brown are very strong, can be a little streaky,
(06:54):
play both ends, highly resourceful. But it's not aesthetic beautiful.
It's a tough, physical twenty seven. You know, they just
bang into people. They're on the floor and we punish people.
If you know James Harden, it's just Kobe, it's just, oh,
this is like it does I've never seen anything like it.
(07:17):
And I think Jaylen Brown to me's a little d
Wade where you look up and you're like, man, that guy.
That guy plays big, that guy's tough, that guy's strong,
that guy's physical. You know, d Wade was not always
the best player on his team. He played with Shack,
he played with Lebron, but there were nights d Wade
was the best player on the floor. And that's how
I feel with Jalen Brown. I think it's just one
(07:38):
of those things that Jalen Brown deserves credit for his game.
He has worked at his craft, you know what I mean,
Like he's like a radio star with a bad voice,
Like like he just worked outwork people. Because that jumper
initially in the league, you know, he I out of
cal I told you he looked like a football player.
I was just like, God, this guy is strong. He
(08:01):
has worked his butt off. I mean d Wade went
to Little Marquette, he goes to cow These are guys.
These are not like guys that are going to UNC
at a high school or UCLA. So I think Jalen
is and and frankly aggressive as we say, matters and
he's really aggressive that dunk. I wrote it down here
(08:23):
somewhere that that dunk, by god, God, that's like epic,
you know ESPN Classic, you know that's like, okay, that's
an all time YouTube play.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yeah, I would I would attribute Jalen Brown's kind of
increased you know, like just just the rise that he's
taken in the season down to three things. First of all,
he's defending at an insanely insane insane He hasn't guarded
like this since the twenty twenty two season, except for
he's smarter and a little bit bigger now, so he's
even better at it. The second piece of it is
(08:57):
understanding his best advantage, which is is just a better
athlete than everybody, so doing things like crashing the offensive glass,
had a huge offensive rebound put back in crunch time,
just beating people off the dribble. Remember in Game two,
it was that drive pass Maxi Kleba for the left
handed finish.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
That was a huge play in that game.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
And then the third piece of it, and this, I
think this is one of my favorite things about the
game of basketball, is that pursuit of adding something to
your game and seeing it come to fruition on the
biggest stage. Jalen Brown worked really hard over the last
couple of years to become a mid range, post up
fadeaway jump shooter, and he paid his dues behind the
scenes by himself of one on one work, and here
(09:41):
in this season he was actually the best post up
fadeaway jump shooter in the league based on points per
shot attempt, and I thought it was really cool to
see a game here where Dallas gets it down to
one after Kyrie made that floater. I think it was
ninety three to ninety two, and he hit two massive
post up fadeaway jump what was out of the post
and one was kind of like a step back. But
(10:02):
he had two massive pull up mid range jump shots
to close that game out. And I guarantee you there
was a moment there for him where he kind of
looked in was like, this is why I put in
all that work.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
It paid off. He put in the.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Work, he got better, He gave his team a better
chance to win the title. End of story. I want
to shift to the Luca thing for a second, because,
like I sympathize with this play to a certain extent,
I have all the offensive responsibilities, so obviously I can't
just just be an all world defensive player. But we're
not asking Luca to be an all world defensive player.
(10:37):
There's a certain like baseline level of effort that you
need just to have your teams be able to function
as a defense. And like so many people have made
it about Luca versus Tatum, and like Ohill Tatum struggling
to guard Luca too. That's fine, but that's not what
this issue is. The issue is Dallas can't beat Boston
unless Luca plays better defense. And you saw the stat
(10:58):
that was going around. Luca got blown by more times
in Game two of the NBA Finals than any player
had in over ten years tonight, just like falling asleep
on Sam Houser, He's literally guarding one of their best
shooters in the corner, one pass away. He's not even
looking at him. He's like five steps away, not even
looking at him. There's a play where Drew Holliday's just
running in circles around him, getting offensive rebounds as Lucas
(11:19):
not paying attention on the defensive glass, not sprinting back
in transition, complaining at the referees. Even like that last play,
you know you have five fouls and Jalen Brown's trying
to drive past you, and you're throwing your body in
front of him and knocking him over. Even if you
think that that's a charge, you put the whistle in
the ref's mouth like you made him make a call.
I'm just so disappointed in his performance in those areas
(11:42):
in this series.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And all I heard all year is and I watched
him in the regular season, and I did think he
played better defense. Playoff basketball, you start getting the conference
finals and finals, it's a whole different ball again. First
of all, you're fatigued. Now you're now into one hundred games.
You're now tired. Also, the games are more intense. It
(12:04):
becomes really possession basketball, so you can't take plays off.
So it's a great example when I hear people say, well,
Luca's defense, it was a lot better this year. He
committed in the regular season, But this league's getting younger.
Younger players are less refined. You don't have to be
a great defensive player in the regular season against about
seventy percent of this league. But Boston completely exposes you defensively.
(12:30):
Like everybody can score. I mean they're big shoot, everybody
can shoot. They're bench guys. So it's it does show
you the gap between you know, the conference finals and
the finals and everything else you are. It's a different level.
I mean Michael Jordan, and I've said this before, Michael
(12:52):
Jordan's legacy is you know, if Michael would have played
in the Western Conference not the Eastern, he you know,
he doesn't go six for six, right, he would have
faced the Pistons and the Celtics, perhaps in the finals.
So his legacy is built on six for six. We
just say he's the best player. Even though Russell won eleven.
Lebron does everything better. He's the so it does. Your
(13:15):
legacy is largely framed by finals. In Western Conference finals,
this has been This is gonna stick to him like
he was atrocious defensively in these finals, and that's gonna stick.
That's why I say my comp to him is he's
a better Carmelo Anthony. I don't think he's in great shape.
I don't think he's easy to play with. I don't
think he's committed on the defensive end. The difference is
(13:37):
he can shoot the three Carmelo refuse to. And he's
better than Carmelo. But Carmelo was an elegant scorer. He
was a beautiful offensive player. But you know he was
threatened by Jeremy Lynn. So I'll stick by this. It's
not a perfect comp but this is gonna stick. I mean,
if we're gonna bang on Tatum and he's gonna win
(13:57):
the finals, then we've got to bang on Luke. Who's
gonna get swept and is atrocious defensively.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Well, and it was specifically one of the major issues
for why they couldn't guard Boston. And that's the thing
to the point that I made earlier in the show,
Like when I talk about being able to win different ways,
I'm mainly talking about the defensive end.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
You have to be able to guard different teams.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Like, because guess what, you are gonna face a Yo
Kitchen one round that is like this bizarre kind of
like post up force, and then you might face the
Warriors in the second round. It's gonna be Steph Curry
flying around screen and he's gonna be shooting all these
threes and they're gonna be inverting and running a lot
of four on threes with Draymond rolling down the middle
of the floor right, And it's like, all of a sudden,
you play Minnesota, here's Anthony Edwards, this old school two guard,
and then you play a team like Boston. It's like
(14:39):
no true superstar, but five great offensive players that are
gonna spread you out, right. So it's like there, you
do have to be able to guard in different ways.
It doesn't matter if you can play a role in
the regular season. You have to be able to beat
four playoff teams. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I
understand the offensive responsibility angle. Here's where I disagree with
that as an excuse. This is the way your team
(15:01):
is built. Your team is constructed so that you and
Kyrie do everything offensively. You can't ask PJ. Washington to
create offense. You can't ask Derek Lively, Daniel Gafford, Josh Green,
Derek Jones Junior.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
That's not their job.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
They are play finishers who play defense, and so by design,
this team needs you to do a bunch offensively. So
if you're going to get to the Promised Land, your
goal of winning the title, you have to find a
way to do that and guard. And this is again
something I love about NBA history. Every superstar we've seen
has encountered their greatest weakness, their greatest vice. Right MJ
(15:37):
and Kobe, it was are they willing to trust their
teammates when it matters?
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
For Lebron, it was the jumper. He had to literally
have Greg Popovich ignore him at the three point line
in two thousand and eight and then again in twenty
thirteen before he conquered those demons and became the basketball
player that he needed to be like, even like Steph
Curry and NICOLEA. Jokic had to learn how to be
better defensively. Luka Doncic has to take better care of
(16:01):
his body so that he can hold up better physically
over the course of an eighty two game regular season
in playoff run, so that he can do his job
on offense while also being at the very least a
functional part of the defense. He does not need to
be all world, he just needs to be better than this.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
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Speaker 1 (17:50):
This is what happens if you look at most of
the great players, Kobe and Duncan and Michael and you
can go back in the history of time, any of
them Lebron were great defensive players in their prime. Others
Bird and Steph Curry weren't, but they worked at it.
They were good team defenders, right like that, You cannot
(18:14):
find an NBA champion with your best player as an
awful defender, Like, I don't know if one exists. I mean,
Yannis defends. I mean, look at the Jokis, by the way,
I think you know Jokic gets a bad rap, but
his girth creates he you know, he bangs on a
lot of people. He may not move his feet as
(18:36):
well as you'd like. I don't think he's a bad
defensive player.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I think I think he's He's okay. But again, Gordon's
excellent porter. Can defend, you can't. You're not gonna win
a championship. By the way, Kyrie people say he's excellent defender,
he doesn't look as great in this series.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Again, he's been bad in this series. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So it's almost like in the NFL, we fall in
love when quarterbacks run around, but eventually against better defenses
and better defensive coordinators. You have to do most of
your work in the pocket. Mahomes will run every Super
Bowl fourth quarter because he can, but he understands it.
But we fall in love with running quarterbacks because it's
(19:19):
so damn exciting. I love Jared Goff. It's not exciting
Lamar Jackson. I like watching him play. It's the same here.
We fall in love with offense because it does win
in the regular season and it does win championships. But
at some point you're going to face a roster that's
going to expose you. And so whether it's running around
as a quarterback or scoring these points ball usage, there's
(19:41):
a price. Harden worn out Luca. I mean, let's be
honest about Luca. BEYONDI he looks gassed, he looks tired,
he looks you know. So I don't want to pick
on him because he's obviously a gifted player. But this
is the difference. When Jokic lost that series of the
Minnesota there was nothing to really pick on, right, Like
(20:05):
you're like, well, they led by twenty, Like there's a
reason we're picking on Luca. There's a reason we're tough
on Tatum. And let's let's let's move to Tatum. I
think to your point, I do think he's he This
is a confidence thing, like he doesn't you know, he
had a couple of big baskets late. But it is interesting.
It does create an interesting scenario is you're watching your
(20:28):
teammate crush he's got a better matchup, right, and you're saying,
and you're sitting there thinking, well, his matchup's better. It's
kind of fun. I'm conserving energy. And the truth is
we have huge leads. How often do they need me?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
In the fourth to night he had a dunk at
the rim, He had a couple of big shots, so
they did need him and he delivered. But you can see,
you know in these mismatches early Jason, he's sitting around.
You know, these stars, Lebron does it. They can serve.
They're like I can concern.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
They haven't needed him.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
They needed him in the fourth quarter a couple of
big baskets and he delivered a night.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah, we've talked about this before, but like I it
really dawned on me about two thirds of the way
through this season or I was thinking for all the
flaws that Tatum has as a like tonight, it was
kind of infuriating to watch him just repeatedly settle for
that pull up three points shot, even though he literally
hasn't been able to make it for like three years.
(21:31):
But it's like, he's kind of the perfect guy for
this group because you need someone that's absolutely willing to
feel out whether like he will not grab the reins
unless everyone else is falling apart, right Like, if someone
else has it going, he'll just keep going to that guy.
And like, and so he's kind of in a weird way,
(21:53):
like for this particular group, he's the type of superstar
that kind of actually.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Does float all the boats higher.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
He does kind of just seem to buy virtue of
his willingness to kind of just disappear into different roles
based on what that game needs. It's made it so
that this team, because again my fear with Boston was
will they be able to do this? Will they be
able to play drive and kick basketball and trust each
other and avoid the bad ISO threes and play defense
the way they need to? And they have And I
(22:20):
mean again, like I feel like everything comes back to,
like what conversation we're having. If we're having the conversation
is Tatum one of the best, like two or three
players in the world. Then yeah, it's like we got
to be a little bit more nitpicky. That's why we're
talking about Luca. You're wondering what you said. You don't
want to pick on Luca. This is a pretty low
bar that we're asking here, Like we're not saying you
need to be all world. You just can't be like
(22:42):
highlight real bad on the defensive end of the floor
like that. That's what we're talking about. And so again,
within the context of where Tatum is in this league,
I think he's done a beautiful job leading this team.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You can't roll through the playoffs like this. I mean
they were twenty three and seven against the West. I
think if you count the playoffs, forty four and eleven
against the East, and they're just a hot knife through
Marger and then the playoffs, you do have to have
a conversation like have we sort of undervalued just how
good they are? And I was thinking tonight when Horford
(23:13):
had a big I think a defensive player or rebound
late and I'm like, dude, he's like they're seventh, they're games.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
I mean, it's like stop on Tyrie.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, it's like this team's got a lot of It
reminds me a little bit when Andre Iguidala was the
MVP and the Warriors. Finally, you're like, you're a pretty
deep team. When you're bench guy. They aren't as electric
or aesthetically pleasing as the Warriors, but I'm telling you
they they have more good shooters than the Warriors. The
(23:45):
Warriors just had the best shooter on the planet and
the best catch and shoot. The Warriors probably had three
of the four better shooters if they match. But if
you're going seven deep, I just don't think NBA teams, Jason,
this is a younger league they're not equipped to beat.
It's almost like the league got caught flat footed when
they added Drew and Porzingis, and even without him tonight,
(24:09):
you're like, it's just it's a young league. People don't
have that many wing defenders, you know. And by the way,
wing defenders has been for about three years. What the
league wants, well, nobody's trading when they get them. Nobody's
giving them up. So it's like, there are excellent wing
defenders in the league. Boston just happens to have like four,
and they have seven shooters. So I do feel like
(24:32):
the Celtics to some degree, kind of have caught the
league flat footed by upgrading at the Marcus Smart position,
upgrading at Porzingis, who didn't play, so Dallas scored low tonight.
A couple of lobs returned. But we got to be
honest about this. It's a moment in time. The league
can't defend this team. They're just when they're playing ball
(24:52):
movement Celtic basketball like that second quarter. Nobody's stopping this team. Nobody.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, I think the this is probably the first NBA
team I've ever seen that can credibly run a full rotation,
like a literally a full eight man rotation, where every
single player can dribble, shoot, and pass well everyone like
it's it's It's truly a unique combination. And so to
your point that I don't think NBA teams are jet
prepared for.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
That, They're not.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Now I've been I've I've been.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Thinking a lot about where I would rank Boston among
other champions over the course of the last couple of days.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
And it's complicated because I.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Do think this team appears more dominant than they actually are,
in the sense that the bottom of the East was
extraordinarily weak, so they racked up a ton of wins
there to The Eastern Conference had five good teams, four
of them ended up on the other side of the bracket,
so they only had to play one of them, and
that team was injured. Those teams all beat the heck
out of each other. The Celtics had two easy first
(25:46):
round opponents. Also, I think you and I would both
agree that Minnesota and Denver would have presented more issues
to Boston more than doubt, Like Minnesota has the personnel
to contain on the perimeter, which is like literally what
you have to do to beat Boston. So I do think,
like when I was thinking about it, like there are
teams that are somewhat more limited in recent champions like
(26:07):
that Warriors team with Steph. I didn't think that was
a great roster. I thought that was just Steph literally
just like just hit the peak of his play there
in that game for and obviously a deserving champion, But
Steph was that team that was not a super talented team.
The twenty twenty one Bucks that was the COVID year.
A bunch of good teams and good players were out.
But I think I think like I think Boston has
(26:30):
a case to be better than that, like Denver Lakers
Raptors tier that we have in the last last few years.
My one pushback on that would be those were awesome
teams that also had the undisputed best player in the
world on them at that time. Because in twenty nineteen
Lebron was hurt. You could make the case Kawhi was
that guy, right like Jokic last year probably still the
(26:50):
best player in the world. Lebron in twenty twenty I
thought was the best player in the world. So that's
a one thing that complicates that discussion. That's it to
your point in terms of the league being flat footed.
You gotta beat Boston to win the title, so you
better have guys that can guard on the perimeter, and
even your weak links better be able to at least
do something within the scheme like funnel to the right spot,
(27:10):
like compete on the glass, get back in transition. And
so I think that if there's something that Dallas has
to learn from this, and Luca specifically, if you're going
to like Boston's probably gonna be heavily favored to win
the East again next year easily, and so that so
that means if you're gonna encounter this team again, you
better be ready for this challenge. And I think that's
gonna be something they're gonna have to look into again, Luca. Individually,
(27:32):
all these teams, like teams like the Lakers that have
like always they're always playing two or three bad perimeter defenders.
That could be a nightmare if you ran into Boston
for whatever reason, team teams like Denver. Like Denver, even
I would have been interested to see this matchup because
of seeing Jokic garden space, seeing Jamal Murray garden space,
seeing Michael Porter junior garden space, and so all of
(27:52):
these teams I think are gonna be looking at it
and like, we got to get more athletic on the perimeter.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, so let's talk a little Jerry West eighty six
years old. By now, everybody has seen the stories. One
of the things that really jumped out to me this
week was how badly the Lakers have butchered their coaching search.
And I thought they sort of butchered the death of
Jerry West. They were very late on sending out something
(28:18):
like four to five hours late. I had a discussion
with somebody yesterday and they said you know, to preserve
the Bus Jerry Buss legacy. Genie may want to consider selling.
She can't compete financially. It's not an elite front office,
(28:39):
you know, the clipper's office, the executive suite has far
more people, far richer owner going into a new arena.
It's they're just not I look at the Lakers, very
petty with Jerry West. Come on, he's the logo. And
I never faulted them. When Phil Jackson and Jerry West,
(29:00):
you know they you know, there's reports that's not who
Jerry would have hired. They were never built to get
along right. That was never going to work.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
But I thought between this coaching search, which has been embarrassing,
I mean, when you go after a college coach and
you can't bid more than Kentucky does. I mean, this
is the California is the largest economy in the country.
Los Angeles, I think is the biggest single city economy,
maybe at San Francisco with Silicon Valley. But I thought
that was embarrassing, and I thought they handled the Jerry
(29:34):
West thing poorly. And I will say this, I reached
out to a couple of people today because it happened
right before I went on the show, so I didn't
get text during the show. But I mean what people
really said was is that if you think of how
long Jerry West was in basketball, it's like it's like
(29:55):
eight to eighty six, Like you know, it's eight years
old to eighty six.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
In that.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
All those the tough childhood, the brutal childhood, lost his brother,
his dad verbally and physically abusive.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
That kind of.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Isolates you, like you feel like you're on an island.
You don't trust dad, and there's loss of life in
the family. Jerry became a great friend and a great
listener and a great ally to players, and I don't
think that ever left him. I mean, I think to
the very end, it's pretty remarkable when an eighty year
old man is revered by twenty three year old men,
(30:34):
that's really rare. I mean, it's one thing if you're like,
you know, you landed on the moon, you're an astronaut.
You know, we all have these iconic figures, but for
people in your industry to still like, hey, let's get
Jerry West on the phone. And I think Jerry's rough
childhood created this sort of metal and steel, you know,
he said a lot of people say they're dogs. He goes,
(30:55):
I was a wolf. I eight dogs. There's a toughness
with Jerry, and I wouldn't want to go his past
to get it, but I mean he he The word
I got from two people today was like he was relentless.
If Jerry wanted something, you know that movie. Rick Buker
said today he was called the logo and El Loco
(31:16):
like he like they were both nicknamed. So but I
guess going back to my point with the Lakers, I
thought they were really petty on his death, right, Like
you can beat petty in life. Don't be petty when
somebody dies, Like tell your ex wife, your ex husband,
if they pass, that's the day that you show some
grace and class, right, even if you've had acrimony in
(31:37):
a relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, again, it's a low bar. It's a low bar.
It's the day that he died. You're expecting more than that.
I you know, obviously, obviously Jerry was one of the
original psycho competitors, the guys that are just wired a
certain way that obviously led to their success. I you
know what fascinates me with him too, is he's just
one of the most respected basketball minds that ever came
(32:03):
into the league, and he's got his fingerprints on all
of these weird turning points in NBA history. For instance,
he was basically the guy that put Kobe and Shack together.
I don't know if you remember this, but he was
the guy that stopped the Warriors from trading Klay Thompson
for Kevin Love.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Oh no, he said he would resign.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah, Like that.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Was a huge Like that was a huge turning point
in the history of the NBA had they made that deal.
Because I mean, as I think, Kevin Love is a
little underrated in NBA history, but he wouldn't Clay, and
Clay obviously was a natural fit with that team. Say
what you want about the Clippers. Their failures have primarily
had to do with health. But like I mean, if
the Clippers ever could stay healthy and together with Kawhi
(32:47):
at the top of his game, they would have just
been a better version of the Celtics team. And like
he he's how rare is it too to see an
older guy who's been around the league that long, who's
that who's got that much of his finger on the
pulse of where the game of basketball is heading? Because
that's so unique because usually it's the older guys that are,
you know, still running eye formation and it's still stubborn,
(33:11):
and they're stubborn, Yeah, exactly, and he's he was the
guy that was just kind of ahead of the curve
in all of those different ways. And like, that's what
I'll always remember about Jerry West is if you're right
in the short list of the guys that that were
the basketball geniuses in the history of the league, He's
just on the short list there.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, there there was a humility about him. You know,
it's it's weird to say, but you can be really
confident and simultaneously humble. You can't be arrogant and humble,
but you could be confident in humble and he straddled
that line where and again, his childhood probably had a
lot to do with that. You know, you're very grateful
when you kind of feel like you escape tough times,
(33:50):
and you know, it's it's like when they you know,
I was a child of divorce. Not to bring it
back to me, but when you're a child of divorce,
it doesn't matter how much you make. You remember not
being able to afford like cleats in high school and
having to borrow with friends, like you remember having to
wear like ripped shorts and pe glass because your mom
(34:11):
and dad were divorced. Like, I don't care if you're seventy.
That shit doesn't go away like that. Tom Brady to
this day has a chip on his shoulder because he
went in the sixth round. You win in thirty Super Bowls,
it just doesn't matter. So it's sometimes really bad parenting
and bad situations create jet fuel and humility and gratefulness.
(34:33):
And I think Jerry had all of those things. And yeah,
well he won't have to watch the Celtics hoisted trophy.
I guess they're Jerry. I know he didn't like that.
(34:56):
Boston has had a great deal of success. The Red
Sox don't feel like they're in that stratosphere. But between
New England and the Celtics, you know, I said this
before the series. The Celtics were too good not to
win one. They're too weird to win four. And this
thing will eventually break up Porzingis's health, Derek Wide will
get paid for by somebody. They're just too good not
(35:16):
to win. And in this NBA, you know, I watched
them tonight when they are moving the ball, like the
second quarter.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
I mean my notepad I was. I'm watching it with
my daughter.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I'm like, this is insane, this is like, this is
like I mean, this is like if you're in a
gym and a bunch of college guys come in and
start playing against non players and you're like, God, everybody's
everybody's great.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Like, there was a.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Point You're like, this could be a forty point game.
This is Dallas. The crowd just went quiet. I think
Boston's too good, too good not to win a title.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yeah, And we were on that over the last couple
of years. They were gonna get one.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Yeah, this is group.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
As soon as they made the poor Zincis draw Holiday
t it just felt like inevitable that once in the
next three years, Yeah, they were going to get Well,
it's just a question of when and like and you know,
I think I again, I think that. I think that
it really came down to all season long. It was
whether or not Boston was going to play to their
strengths when it mattered, and they did that. We were
were we going to get the Jalen Brown that fell
(36:15):
apart against Miami last year, or were we going to
get the Jalen Brown that we know he's capable of being.
He's been the Jalen Brown that we know he's capable
of being. Like Drew Holliday, was he going to be
a clunky fit or was he going to be a
natural fit. He's a natural fit by the way, watching
Drew Holiday guard Kyrie Irving down the stretch of that game,
just like there's so many highlights now in NBA Finals
history from the last few years of just Drue just
(36:37):
putting the clamps on people.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Hey, by the way, I thought of this. You know,
you know, pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered, don't get greedy.
Is this a moment in time? In a weird way
for Dallas, this is sort of a hey, be careful
about Kyrie. You got to the finals. This was wonderful.
But Jason he had like he's had eight bad playoff
(37:02):
games like this, Like every third game it's bad, and
it was atrocious defensively. If there's anything out of this
series that you go, okay, it's you know, if Kyrie
comes out of this thing. You know, we've seen this
with Andrew Wiggins contract here gets to the finals. It's
the minute he got the bag he's never been the
(37:23):
same player, Like this is a reminder. Kyrie's not good defensively.
He can be streaky, He's very hot and cold. He
can fall in those Boston games. In Boston he gets
very iso, very quickly. Just you know, again, he got
to the finals with him. As I was watching this,
(37:44):
I thought there were times tonight I'm like, this isn't
the worst thing for Dallas. This isn't And now you'd say, well,
porzingis Brunson, Kyrie can't.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Well, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
He got to the finals.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Did you ever ever?
Speaker 1 (37:57):
I mean, did you ever?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I'm the game tonight and I'm thinking, I'm trying to
think of positives for Dallas, and my positive is, well,
they're not going to sign Kyrie to a massive extension
in a year, right.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I think I think that Kyrie has been a lot
more good than bad in this postseason run. I also
think he was pretty good tonight for the most part. Again,
the defense hasn't been good enough, but that.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
He scored a lot in the first half, Yeah, yeah,
he did.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
He was a big part of how they got that
early lead. Yeah, But there's he had two absolute stinkers
in Boston and there's just no way around it. And
like the hard part too, is that it looked like
the crowd got to him a little bit. My bigger
fear with Dallas. And this is, by the way, this
is not this is not just emotion speaking. This is
just what NBA history has told us. There hasn't been
a since since Katie left the Warriors, there hasn't been
(38:47):
a team in the West that's even made it twice.
So like it's a different team every year. It's like, oh,
here's the Lakers, here's Phoenix, you know. Oh here's Golden State.
Oh here's Denver, Here's Dallas. Like next year Memphis has come,
John Moran's coming back, Jared Jackson and Desmond Bayner getting better,
They're gonna be right there in the mix with everybody.
Oklahoma City wouldn't be surprised if they were the one
(39:09):
seed again next year. Not to mention they have a
trade to make. The Lakers are probably gonna do something
to go all in. Who knows what the Clippers are
gonna do heading into their new arena. There's so many
good teams in the Western Conference, And like you trick
yourself into thinking like, oh, We're just gonna be there
every year. Like I would be shocked if Dallas made
(39:29):
it back to the finals next year, would you absolutely?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
First of all, Denver is already favored, and Denver will
make They'll make an addition. And Denver led by twenty
in Game seven against Minnesota and matches up much better
with Boston. Also with Boston, we have to be honest.
Porzingis's health is a real issue. This is not a
new thing like this is this is who he is. Also,
it's different after you win. It is hard. You know,
(39:54):
people take a little off season, you know, make a
little longer off season. That's just the reality it is.
I mean Aalen Brown signed of Max played great, you know,
it's he may not equal that. So Also I think
the Knicks will get another player, and I think the
Knicks can be physical enough. Could be a real pain
in the ass for Boston in the playoffs the way
they play, if they can stay healthy and be physical.
(40:14):
So Philadelphia's got cap space, Milwaukee Dame Jannis probably both
don't get hurt. And I think everybody in the West
getting better. I mean, o case, he is interesting. They
they have enough draft capital, they're good. They could get
great with the right edition, like like like that. So yeah,
I think I think listen, I had Boston in six.
(40:36):
It looks like Boston in four. But this this NBA,
which is more international and more parody.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
You know. I sat there tonight and I'm like, if
Dallas comes back and wins, you got to be kidding me. Like,
for for two and a half quarters, I'm like, God,
Boston is this is this is warrior, like with Katie,
this is a machine. And then they just got into
this awful ISO like bad. I I'm talking like old Boston.
(41:08):
I'm talking like twelve and or fourteen shots. You're like
that fallaways Like like I'm like, missoula time out, get
a set play, what do we do? And then you
know Tatum had a couple, Jalen Horford a big defensive play.
But I mean, I think this turned out sort of
how we thought. It's just been quicker.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Well it should have been more competitive, but we all
knew this would happen. You're right, And like again, my
all eyes for me are on Luca. I if he
comes into camp next year and looks physically different, that'll
tell me a lot about what he's learned about his
game and what.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
He needs to do.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
If he's serious about getting to the promised line, I'll
be excited to see that. All right, guys, that's all
we have for tonight. This NBA Finals Game three Instant
Reaction was brought to you by Chase Freedom Unlimited Unlimited
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(42:10):
have a good night. We'll be back tomorrow morning to
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Speaker 1 (42:16):
The volume. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed
the podcast, take a moment rate and review
The Volume. All right, Jason timth is about ready to
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Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's all.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
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Speaker 3 (01:03):
All right, welcome to Hoops Today, here at the Volume.
Happy Wednesday, everybody. This NBA Finals Game three Instant Reaction
was brought to you by Chase Freedom Unlimited. How do
you cash back as usual. We've got Colin Coward here
to break it all down. Kind of a funky game.
Poor zingis out to start, a lot of attacking the
rim for Dallas, getting easier shots around the basket, but
(01:25):
that classic Boston driving kick attack and excellent defense gets
a big What was whether they were up twenty one
in the early fourth quarter, A little bit of a
classic Boston meltdown, a bunch of bad isolation possessions. Dallas
gets going a little bit, but at the end Luca
fouls out. Boston just seeming It kind of reminded me
of that Pacers series where they just kind of took
control of the game late with a few good defensive
(01:48):
possessions and a few quality driving kicks, and all of
a sudden, the Celtics are up three to zero in
the final. So Colin, what's your biggest takeaway after Game
three tonight?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, well, I mean, you can't be a lobsided team
and thempletely lobsided. When Shaq and Kobe were winning championships,
or Michael and Scottie, there were a lot of helpers.
I mean, good God, you could go to Ron Harper
could drop twenty and coup coach and Kerr and Packson.
You know, there were just other guys that could contribute.
I mean the first half, it was fifty one fifty
(02:19):
at half, and it was Boston against Luca and Kyrie.
So you just I think you just can't be that lobsided.
And I also think it's to your point. So my
first takeaway is it's just too much. I thought I
wrote this down on the fourth quarter. Luca looked cooked,
and he's not a good defensive player, but you know
he's He's just he doesn't slide quick enough, he doesn't
(02:42):
get in great position, and he can complain a couple
of times in the first half, he complained so much
that he got behind on defense and got burned. But
I think what we're finding out is Dallas had the
things that they did against Minnesota, they just can't do
against Boston. We saw him beat an old team, a
big team. They don't have the personnel to match up
(03:05):
on either end of the floor.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
They just don't.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
This is just a mismatch, and I think it starts
begging the question is what do we do with Boston.
This is one of the great runs by a team ever.
Is it an Eastern Conference that's weak, or have we
undervalued just how good their seven person rotation. You know,
if Porzingis and Horford are off the bench, that's a
(03:28):
pretty good seven, right.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I think Boston's really really good, and I think a
couple of underrated elements they have, with exception of some
brief stretches. They had an ugly stretch in the middle
of Game one, they had an ugly stretch obviously in
the early fourth quarter here in Game three. But they've
been playing a lot of grown up basketball, which is
something they were a little bit inconsistent with. Over the
course of the regular season. Both Jalen Brown and Jason
(03:52):
Tatum have understood their job, which is get the defense
in rotation just so that everyone can play with an advantage.
And then a big part of it, too is Jalen
Brown's rise. We you know, there's been so much talk
about Tatum, and there's no doubt that, like I think
the fact that his jumper has been so often he's
having like a really bad jump shooting playoff run. I
pulled this out on my show the other day, but
this is the fourth consecutive season where we've seen a
(04:13):
decline year over year from on his jump shooting, and
so he's kind of just like going through something with
his jump shot that's messing with parts of this game.
But I think the major story is less about like
Tatum being lower, but more about Jalen's rising into that tier.
I think you could, like if you it used to
be for me that Jalen Brown was in that third
tier of stars. He wasn't one of the best guys
(04:35):
in the league. He wasn't in that list of like
all the flawed superstars. He was something beneath that. And
basically the entire second half of the season, in this
entire playoff run, he's been playing at Jason Tatum's level
right up there as one of those that second tier
of stars in the league, and that just is another
infusion of talent that just makes it that much harder
(04:55):
to deal with. And like again, like I do want
to talk about Lucas defense, and I think it's an
important kind of discussion about his personal development, But I
want to start by just kind of just pointing out
that Boston is optimizing themselves. They're playing to the best
that they are capable of with this group, and that's
what makes them so difficult to beat. I do think
you made a good point about the matchups though, Like
Dallas did get an old injured Clippers team, a Thunder team, which,
(05:20):
by the way, pushed them pretty damn hard, but they're
young and that some of their younger players really struggled
on the offensive end. And then Minnesota, as we discussed
that nauseum was just a nightmare matchup, Dallas was a
nightmare matchup for them because they could protect the rim,
and that's a huge weakness for a team in Minnesota
that was literally seventeenth on offense in the regular season.
(05:40):
So they finally ran into a team that could actually
push their specific weaknesses. And I think that's probably one
of my biggest takeaways from this entire postseason run, is like,
you have to be able to win different ways, you
have to be able to play different ways, you have
to be able to beat different types of teams. And
Dallas was good enough to beat the matchups that got
out out in the West, but they were not good
(06:01):
enough to beat a team that could really spread them
out and test their perimeter defense.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I mean, I think one of the reasons I always
considered Jalen sort of a second tier guy, not a third.
But I think it's a little like d Wade is
that d Wade could score twenty five. It was never beautiful,
a lot of mid range playing, way bigger. You know,
he punched way above his weight physically. Most of the
great scorers Michael and Byrd Kareem though not pretty dominant.
(06:33):
They either have one or two go to shots or
they're pretty I mean Carmelo was pretty offensively Steph. Historically,
the great scorers have just either been unique or they
just can do something nobody else can. D Wade and
Jalen Brown are very strong, can be a little streaky,
(06:54):
play both ends, highly resourceful. But it's not aesthetic beautiful.
It's a tough, physical twenty seven. You know, they just
bang into people. They're on the floor and we punish people.
If you know James Harden, it's just Kobe, it's just, oh,
this is like it does I've never seen anything like it.
(07:17):
And I think Jaylen Brown to me's a little d
Wade where you look up and you're like, man, that guy.
That guy plays big, that guy's tough, that guy's strong,
that guy's physical. You know, d Wade was not always
the best player on his team. He played with Shack,
he played with Lebron, but there were nights d Wade
was the best player on the floor. And that's how
I feel with Jalen Brown. I think it's just one
(07:38):
of those things that Jalen Brown deserves credit for his game.
He has worked at his craft, you know what I mean,
Like he's like a radio star with a bad voice,
Like like he just worked outwork people. Because that jumper
initially in the league, you know, he I out of
cal I told you he looked like a football player.
I was just like, God, this guy is strong. He
(08:01):
has worked his butt off. I mean d Wade went
to Little Marquette, he goes to cow These are guys.
These are not like guys that are going to UNC
at a high school or UCLA. So I think Jalen
is and and frankly aggressive as we say, matters and
he's really aggressive that dunk. I wrote it down here
(08:23):
somewhere that that dunk, by god, God, that's like epic,
you know ESPN Classic, you know that's like, okay, that's
an all time YouTube play.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yeah, I would I would attribute Jalen Brown's kind of
increased you know, like just just the rise that he's
taken in the season down to three things. First of all,
he's defending at an insanely insane insane He hasn't guarded
like this since the twenty twenty two season, except for
he's smarter and a little bit bigger now, so he's
even better at it. The second piece of it is
(08:57):
understanding his best advantage, which is is just a better
athlete than everybody, so doing things like crashing the offensive glass,
had a huge offensive rebound put back in crunch time,
just beating people off the dribble. Remember in Game two,
it was that drive pass Maxi Kleba for the left
handed finish.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
That was a huge play in that game.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
And then the third piece of it, and this, I
think this is one of my favorite things about the
game of basketball, is that pursuit of adding something to
your game and seeing it come to fruition on the
biggest stage. Jalen Brown worked really hard over the last
couple of years to become a mid range, post up
fadeaway jump shooter, and he paid his dues behind the
scenes by himself of one on one work, and here
(09:41):
in this season he was actually the best post up
fadeaway jump shooter in the league based on points per
shot attempt, and I thought it was really cool to
see a game here where Dallas gets it down to
one after Kyrie made that floater. I think it was
ninety three to ninety two, and he hit two massive
post up fadeaway jump what was out of the post
and one was kind of like a step back. But
(10:02):
he had two massive pull up mid range jump shots
to close that game out. And I guarantee you there
was a moment there for him where he kind of
looked in was like, this is why I put in
all that work.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
It paid off. He put in the.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Work, he got better, He gave his team a better
chance to win the title. End of story. I want
to shift to the Luca thing for a second, because,
like I sympathize with this play to a certain extent,
I have all the offensive responsibilities, so obviously I can't
just just be an all world defensive player. But we're
not asking Luca to be an all world defensive player.
(10:37):
There's a certain like baseline level of effort that you
need just to have your teams be able to function
as a defense. And like so many people have made
it about Luca versus Tatum, and like Ohill Tatum struggling
to guard Luca too. That's fine, but that's not what
this issue is. The issue is Dallas can't beat Boston
unless Luca plays better defense. And you saw the stat
(10:58):
that was going around. Luca got blown by more times
in Game two of the NBA Finals than any player
had in over ten years tonight, just like falling asleep
on Sam Houser, He's literally guarding one of their best
shooters in the corner, one pass away. He's not even
looking at him. He's like five steps away, not even
looking at him. There's a play where Drew Holliday's just
running in circles around him, getting offensive rebounds as Lucas
(11:19):
not paying attention on the defensive glass, not sprinting back
in transition, complaining at the referees. Even like that last play,
you know you have five fouls and Jalen Brown's trying
to drive past you, and you're throwing your body in
front of him and knocking him over. Even if you
think that that's a charge, you put the whistle in
the ref's mouth like you made him make a call.
I'm just so disappointed in his performance in those areas
(11:42):
in this series.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And all I heard all year is and I watched
him in the regular season, and I did think he
played better defense. Playoff basketball, you start getting the conference
finals and finals, it's a whole different ball again. First
of all, you're fatigued. Now you're now into one hundred games.
You're now tired. Also, the games are more intense. It
(12:04):
becomes really possession basketball, so you can't take plays off.
So it's a great example when I hear people say, well,
Luca's defense, it was a lot better this year. He
committed in the regular season, But this league's getting younger.
Younger players are less refined. You don't have to be
a great defensive player in the regular season against about
seventy percent of this league. But Boston completely exposes you defensively.
(12:30):
Like everybody can score. I mean they're big shoot, everybody
can shoot. They're bench guys. So it's it does show
you the gap between you know, the conference finals and
the finals and everything else you are. It's a different level.
I mean Michael Jordan, and I've said this before, Michael
(12:52):
Jordan's legacy is you know, if Michael would have played
in the Western Conference not the Eastern, he you know,
he doesn't go six for six, right, he would have
faced the Pistons and the Celtics, perhaps in the finals.
So his legacy is built on six for six. We
just say he's the best player. Even though Russell won eleven.
Lebron does everything better. He's the so it does. Your
(13:15):
legacy is largely framed by finals. In Western Conference finals,
this has been This is gonna stick to him like
he was atrocious defensively in these finals, and that's gonna stick.
That's why I say my comp to him is he's
a better Carmelo Anthony. I don't think he's in great shape.
I don't think he's easy to play with. I don't
think he's committed on the defensive end. The difference is
(13:37):
he can shoot the three Carmelo refuse to. And he's
better than Carmelo. But Carmelo was an elegant scorer. He
was a beautiful offensive player. But you know he was
threatened by Jeremy Lynn. So I'll stick by this. It's
not a perfect comp but this is gonna stick. I mean,
if we're gonna bang on Tatum and he's gonna win
(13:57):
the finals, then we've got to bang on Luke. Who's
gonna get swept and is atrocious defensively.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Well, and it was specifically one of the major issues
for why they couldn't guard Boston. And that's the thing
to the point that I made earlier in the show,
Like when I talk about being able to win different ways,
I'm mainly talking about the defensive end.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
You have to be able to guard different teams.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Like, because guess what, you are gonna face a Yo
Kitchen one round that is like this bizarre kind of
like post up force, and then you might face the
Warriors in the second round. It's gonna be Steph Curry
flying around screen and he's gonna be shooting all these
threes and they're gonna be inverting and running a lot
of four on threes with Draymond rolling down the middle
of the floor right, And it's like, all of a sudden,
you play Minnesota, here's Anthony Edwards, this old school two guard,
and then you play a team like Boston. It's like
(14:39):
no true superstar, but five great offensive players that are
gonna spread you out, right. So it's like there, you
do have to be able to guard in different ways.
It doesn't matter if you can play a role in
the regular season. You have to be able to beat
four playoff teams. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I
understand the offensive responsibility angle. Here's where I disagree with
that as an excuse. This is the way your team
(15:01):
is built. Your team is constructed so that you and
Kyrie do everything offensively. You can't ask PJ. Washington to
create offense. You can't ask Derek Lively, Daniel Gafford, Josh Green,
Derek Jones Junior.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
That's not their job.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
They are play finishers who play defense, and so by design,
this team needs you to do a bunch offensively. So
if you're going to get to the Promised Land, your
goal of winning the title, you have to find a
way to do that and guard. And this is again
something I love about NBA history. Every superstar we've seen
has encountered their greatest weakness, their greatest vice. Right MJ
(15:37):
and Kobe, it was are they willing to trust their
teammates when it matters?
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
For Lebron, it was the jumper. He had to literally
have Greg Popovich ignore him at the three point line
in two thousand and eight and then again in twenty
thirteen before he conquered those demons and became the basketball
player that he needed to be like, even like Steph
Curry and NICOLEA. Jokic had to learn how to be
better defensively. Luka Doncic has to take better care of
(16:01):
his body so that he can hold up better physically
over the course of an eighty two game regular season
in playoff run, so that he can do his job
on offense while also being at the very least a
functional part of the defense. He does not need to
be all world, he just needs to be better than this.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
All right, we are really really close to crowning an
NBA champ. I like the Celtics, by the way, especially
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Speaker 1 (17:50):
This is what happens if you look at most of
the great players, Kobe and Duncan and Michael and you
can go back in the history of time, any of
them Lebron were great defensive players in their prime. Others
Bird and Steph Curry weren't, but they worked at it.
They were good team defenders, right like that, You cannot
(18:14):
find an NBA champion with your best player as an
awful defender, Like, I don't know if one exists. I mean,
Yannis defends. I mean, look at the Jokis, by the way,
I think you know Jokic gets a bad rap, but
his girth creates he you know, he bangs on a
lot of people. He may not move his feet as
(18:36):
well as you'd like. I don't think he's a bad
defensive player.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I think I think he's He's okay. But again, Gordon's
excellent porter. Can defend, you can't. You're not gonna win
a championship. By the way, Kyrie people say he's excellent defender,
he doesn't look as great in this series.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Again, he's been bad in this series. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So it's almost like in the NFL, we fall in
love when quarterbacks run around, but eventually against better defenses
and better defensive coordinators. You have to do most of
your work in the pocket. Mahomes will run every Super
Bowl fourth quarter because he can, but he understands it.
But we fall in love with running quarterbacks because it's
(19:19):
so damn exciting. I love Jared Goff. It's not exciting
Lamar Jackson. I like watching him play. It's the same here.
We fall in love with offense because it does win
in the regular season and it does win championships. But
at some point you're going to face a roster that's
going to expose you. And so whether it's running around
as a quarterback or scoring these points ball usage, there's
(19:41):
a price. Harden worn out Luca. I mean, let's be
honest about Luca. BEYONDI he looks gassed, he looks tired,
he looks you know. So I don't want to pick
on him because he's obviously a gifted player. But this
is the difference. When Jokic lost that series of the
Minnesota there was nothing to really pick on, right, Like
(20:05):
you're like, well, they led by twenty, Like there's a
reason we're picking on Luca. There's a reason we're tough
on Tatum. And let's let's let's move to Tatum. I
think to your point, I do think he's he This
is a confidence thing, like he doesn't you know, he
had a couple of big baskets late. But it is interesting.
It does create an interesting scenario is you're watching your
(20:28):
teammate crush he's got a better matchup, right, and you're saying,
and you're sitting there thinking, well, his matchup's better. It's
kind of fun. I'm conserving energy. And the truth is
we have huge leads. How often do they need me?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
In the fourth to night he had a dunk at
the rim, He had a couple of big shots, so
they did need him and he delivered. But you can see,
you know in these mismatches early Jason, he's sitting around.
You know, these stars, Lebron does it. They can serve.
They're like I can concern.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
They haven't needed him.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
They needed him in the fourth quarter a couple of
big baskets and he delivered a night.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah, we've talked about this before, but like I it
really dawned on me about two thirds of the way
through this season or I was thinking for all the
flaws that Tatum has as a like tonight, it was
kind of infuriating to watch him just repeatedly settle for
that pull up three points shot, even though he literally
hasn't been able to make it for like three years.
(21:31):
But it's like, he's kind of the perfect guy for
this group because you need someone that's absolutely willing to
feel out whether like he will not grab the reins
unless everyone else is falling apart, right Like, if someone
else has it going, he'll just keep going to that guy.
And like, and so he's kind of in a weird way,
(21:53):
like for this particular group, he's the type of superstar
that kind of actually.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Does float all the boats higher.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
He does kind of just seem to buy virtue of
his willingness to kind of just disappear into different roles
based on what that game needs. It's made it so
that this team, because again my fear with Boston was
will they be able to do this? Will they be
able to play drive and kick basketball and trust each
other and avoid the bad ISO threes and play defense
the way they need to? And they have And I
(22:20):
mean again, like I feel like everything comes back to,
like what conversation we're having. If we're having the conversation
is Tatum one of the best, like two or three
players in the world. Then yeah, it's like we got
to be a little bit more nitpicky. That's why we're
talking about Luca. You're wondering what you said. You don't
want to pick on Luca. This is a pretty low
bar that we're asking here, Like we're not saying you
need to be all world. You just can't be like
(22:42):
highlight real bad on the defensive end of the floor
like that. That's what we're talking about. And so again,
within the context of where Tatum is in this league,
I think he's done a beautiful job leading this team.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You can't roll through the playoffs like this. I mean
they were twenty three and seven against the West. I
think if you count the playoffs, forty four and eleven
against the East, and they're just a hot knife through
Marger and then the playoffs, you do have to have
a conversation like have we sort of undervalued just how
good they are? And I was thinking tonight when Horford
(23:13):
had a big I think a defensive player or rebound
late and I'm like, dude, he's like they're seventh, they're games.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
I mean, it's like stop on Tyrie.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, it's like this team's got a lot of It
reminds me a little bit when Andre Iguidala was the
MVP and the Warriors. Finally, you're like, you're a pretty
deep team. When you're bench guy. They aren't as electric
or aesthetically pleasing as the Warriors, but I'm telling you
they they have more good shooters than the Warriors. The
(23:45):
Warriors just had the best shooter on the planet and
the best catch and shoot. The Warriors probably had three
of the four better shooters if they match. But if
you're going seven deep, I just don't think NBA teams, Jason,
this is a younger league they're not equipped to beat.
It's almost like the league got caught flat footed when
they added Drew and Porzingis, and even without him tonight,
(24:09):
you're like, it's just it's a young league. People don't
have that many wing defenders, you know. And by the way,
wing defenders has been for about three years. What the
league wants, well, nobody's trading when they get them. Nobody's
giving them up. So it's like, there are excellent wing
defenders in the league. Boston just happens to have like four,
and they have seven shooters. So I do feel like
(24:32):
the Celtics to some degree, kind of have caught the
league flat footed by upgrading at the Marcus Smart position,
upgrading at Porzingis, who didn't play, so Dallas scored low tonight.
A couple of lobs returned. But we got to be
honest about this. It's a moment in time. The league
can't defend this team. They're just when they're playing ball
(24:52):
movement Celtic basketball like that second quarter. Nobody's stopping this team. Nobody.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, I think the this is probably the first NBA
team I've ever seen that can credibly run a full rotation,
like a literally a full eight man rotation, where every
single player can dribble, shoot, and pass well everyone like
it's it's It's truly a unique combination. And so to
your point that I don't think NBA teams are jet
prepared for.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
That, They're not.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Now I've been I've I've been.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Thinking a lot about where I would rank Boston among
other champions over the course of the last couple of days.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
And it's complicated because I.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Do think this team appears more dominant than they actually are,
in the sense that the bottom of the East was
extraordinarily weak, so they racked up a ton of wins
there to The Eastern Conference had five good teams, four
of them ended up on the other side of the bracket,
so they only had to play one of them, and
that team was injured. Those teams all beat the heck
out of each other. The Celtics had two easy first
(25:46):
round opponents. Also, I think you and I would both
agree that Minnesota and Denver would have presented more issues
to Boston more than doubt, Like Minnesota has the personnel
to contain on the perimeter, which is like literally what
you have to do to beat Boston. So I do think,
like when I was thinking about it, like there are
teams that are somewhat more limited in recent champions like
(26:07):
that Warriors team with Steph. I didn't think that was
a great roster. I thought that was just Steph literally
just like just hit the peak of his play there
in that game for and obviously a deserving champion, But
Steph was that team that was not a super talented team.
The twenty twenty one Bucks that was the COVID year.
A bunch of good teams and good players were out.
But I think I think like I think Boston has
(26:30):
a case to be better than that, like Denver Lakers
Raptors tier that we have in the last last few years.
My one pushback on that would be those were awesome
teams that also had the undisputed best player in the
world on them at that time. Because in twenty nineteen
Lebron was hurt. You could make the case Kawhi was
that guy, right like Jokic last year probably still the
(26:50):
best player in the world. Lebron in twenty twenty I
thought was the best player in the world. So that's
a one thing that complicates that discussion. That's it to
your point in terms of the league being flat footed.
You gotta beat Boston to win the title, so you
better have guys that can guard on the perimeter, and
even your weak links better be able to at least
do something within the scheme like funnel to the right spot,
(27:10):
like compete on the glass, get back in transition. And
so I think that if there's something that Dallas has
to learn from this, and Luca specifically, if you're going
to like Boston's probably gonna be heavily favored to win
the East again next year easily, and so that so
that means if you're gonna encounter this team again, you
better be ready for this challenge. And I think that's
gonna be something they're gonna have to look into again, Luca. Individually,
(27:32):
all these teams, like teams like the Lakers that have
like always they're always playing two or three bad perimeter defenders.
That could be a nightmare if you ran into Boston
for whatever reason, team teams like Denver. Like Denver, even
I would have been interested to see this matchup because
of seeing Jokic garden space, seeing Jamal Murray garden space,
seeing Michael Porter junior garden space, and so all of
(27:52):
these teams I think are gonna be looking at it
and like, we got to get more athletic on the perimeter.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, so let's talk a little Jerry West eighty six
years old. By now, everybody has seen the stories. One
of the things that really jumped out to me this
week was how badly the Lakers have butchered their coaching search.
And I thought they sort of butchered the death of
Jerry West. They were very late on sending out something
(28:18):
like four to five hours late. I had a discussion
with somebody yesterday and they said you know, to preserve
the Bus Jerry Buss legacy. Genie may want to consider selling.
She can't compete financially. It's not an elite front office,
(28:39):
you know, the clipper's office, the executive suite has far
more people, far richer owner going into a new arena.
It's they're just not I look at the Lakers, very
petty with Jerry West. Come on, he's the logo. And
I never faulted them. When Phil Jackson and Jerry West,
(29:00):
you know they you know, there's reports that's not who
Jerry would have hired. They were never built to get
along right. That was never going to work.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
But I thought between this coaching search, which has been embarrassing,
I mean, when you go after a college coach and
you can't bid more than Kentucky does. I mean, this
is the California is the largest economy in the country.
Los Angeles, I think is the biggest single city economy,
maybe at San Francisco with Silicon Valley. But I thought
that was embarrassing, and I thought they handled the Jerry
(29:34):
West thing poorly. And I will say this, I reached
out to a couple of people today because it happened
right before I went on the show, so I didn't
get text during the show. But I mean what people
really said was is that if you think of how
long Jerry West was in basketball, it's like it's like
(29:55):
eight to eighty six, Like you know, it's eight years
old to eighty six.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
In that.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
All those the tough childhood, the brutal childhood, lost his brother,
his dad verbally and physically abusive.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
That kind of.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Isolates you, like you feel like you're on an island.
You don't trust dad, and there's loss of life in
the family. Jerry became a great friend and a great
listener and a great ally to players, and I don't
think that ever left him. I mean, I think to
the very end, it's pretty remarkable when an eighty year
old man is revered by twenty three year old men,
(30:34):
that's really rare. I mean, it's one thing if you're like,
you know, you landed on the moon, you're an astronaut.
You know, we all have these iconic figures, but for
people in your industry to still like, hey, let's get
Jerry West on the phone. And I think Jerry's rough
childhood created this sort of metal and steel, you know,
he said a lot of people say they're dogs. He goes,
(30:55):
I was a wolf. I eight dogs. There's a toughness
with Jerry, and I wouldn't want to go his past
to get it, but I mean he he The word
I got from two people today was like he was relentless.
If Jerry wanted something, you know that movie. Rick Buker
said today he was called the logo and El Loco
(31:16):
like he like they were both nicknamed. So but I
guess going back to my point with the Lakers, I
thought they were really petty on his death, right, Like
you can beat petty in life. Don't be petty when
somebody dies, Like tell your ex wife, your ex husband,
if they pass, that's the day that you show some
grace and class, right, even if you've had acrimony in
(31:37):
a relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, again, it's a low bar. It's a low bar.
It's the day that he died. You're expecting more than that.
I you know, obviously, obviously Jerry was one of the
original psycho competitors, the guys that are just wired a
certain way that obviously led to their success. I you
know what fascinates me with him too, is he's just
one of the most respected basketball minds that ever came
(32:03):
into the league, and he's got his fingerprints on all
of these weird turning points in NBA history. For instance,
he was basically the guy that put Kobe and Shack together.
I don't know if you remember this, but he was
the guy that stopped the Warriors from trading Klay Thompson
for Kevin Love.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Oh no, he said he would resign.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah, Like that.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Was a huge Like that was a huge turning point
in the history of the NBA had they made that deal.
Because I mean, as I think, Kevin Love is a
little underrated in NBA history, but he wouldn't Clay, and
Clay obviously was a natural fit with that team. Say
what you want about the Clippers. Their failures have primarily
had to do with health. But like I mean, if
the Clippers ever could stay healthy and together with Kawhi
(32:47):
at the top of his game, they would have just
been a better version of the Celtics team. And like
he he's how rare is it too to see an
older guy who's been around the league that long, who's
that who's got that much of his finger on the
pulse of where the game of basketball is heading? Because
that's so unique because usually it's the older guys that are,
you know, still running eye formation and it's still stubborn,
(33:11):
and they're stubborn, Yeah, exactly, and he's he was the
guy that was just kind of ahead of the curve
in all of those different ways. And like, that's what
I'll always remember about Jerry West is if you're right
in the short list of the guys that that were
the basketball geniuses in the history of the league, He's
just on the short list there.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, there there was a humility about him. You know,
it's it's weird to say, but you can be really
confident and simultaneously humble. You can't be arrogant and humble,
but you could be confident in humble and he straddled
that line where and again, his childhood probably had a
lot to do with that. You know, you're very grateful
when you kind of feel like you escape tough times,
(33:50):
and you know, it's it's like when they you know,
I was a child of divorce. Not to bring it
back to me, but when you're a child of divorce,
it doesn't matter how much you make. You remember not
being able to afford like cleats in high school and
having to borrow with friends, like you remember having to
wear like ripped shorts and pe glass because your mom
(34:11):
and dad were divorced. Like, I don't care if you're seventy.
That shit doesn't go away like that. Tom Brady to
this day has a chip on his shoulder because he
went in the sixth round. You win in thirty Super Bowls,
it just doesn't matter. So it's sometimes really bad parenting
and bad situations create jet fuel and humility and gratefulness.
(34:33):
And I think Jerry had all of those things. And yeah,
well he won't have to watch the Celtics hoisted trophy.
I guess they're Jerry. I know he didn't like that.
(34:56):
Boston has had a great deal of success. The Red
Sox don't feel like they're in that stratosphere. But between
New England and the Celtics, you know, I said this
before the series. The Celtics were too good not to
win one. They're too weird to win four. And this
thing will eventually break up Porzingis's health, Derek Wide will
get paid for by somebody. They're just too good not
(35:16):
to win. And in this NBA, you know, I watched
them tonight when they are moving the ball, like the
second quarter.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
I mean my notepad I was. I'm watching it with
my daughter.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I'm like, this is insane, this is like, this is
like I mean, this is like if you're in a
gym and a bunch of college guys come in and
start playing against non players and you're like, God, everybody's
everybody's great.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Like, there was a.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Point You're like, this could be a forty point game.
This is Dallas. The crowd just went quiet. I think
Boston's too good, too good not to win a title.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yeah, And we were on that over the last couple
of years. They were gonna get one.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Yeah, this is group.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
As soon as they made the poor Zincis draw Holiday
t it just felt like inevitable that once in the
next three years, Yeah, they were going to get Well,
it's just a question of when and like and you know,
I think I again, I think that. I think that
it really came down to all season long. It was
whether or not Boston was going to play to their
strengths when it mattered, and they did that. We were
were we going to get the Jalen Brown that fell
(36:15):
apart against Miami last year, or were we going to
get the Jalen Brown that we know he's capable of being.
He's been the Jalen Brown that we know he's capable
of being. Like Drew Holliday, was he going to be
a clunky fit or was he going to be a
natural fit. He's a natural fit by the way, watching
Drew Holiday guard Kyrie Irving down the stretch of that game,
just like there's so many highlights now in NBA Finals
history from the last few years of just Drue just
(36:37):
putting the clamps on people.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Hey, by the way, I thought of this. You know,
you know, pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered, don't get greedy.
Is this a moment in time? In a weird way
for Dallas, this is sort of a hey, be careful
about Kyrie. You got to the finals. This was wonderful.
But Jason he had like he's had eight bad playoff
(37:02):
games like this, Like every third game it's bad, and
it was atrocious defensively. If there's anything out of this
series that you go, okay, it's you know, if Kyrie
comes out of this thing. You know, we've seen this
with Andrew Wiggins contract here gets to the finals. It's
the minute he got the bag he's never been the
(37:23):
same player, Like this is a reminder. Kyrie's not good defensively.
He can be streaky, He's very hot and cold. He
can fall in those Boston games. In Boston he gets
very iso, very quickly. Just you know, again, he got
to the finals with him. As I was watching this,
(37:44):
I thought there were times tonight I'm like, this isn't
the worst thing for Dallas. This isn't And now you'd say, well,
porzingis Brunson, Kyrie can't.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Well, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
He got to the finals.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Did you ever ever?
Speaker 1 (37:57):
I mean, did you ever?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I'm the game tonight and I'm thinking, I'm trying to
think of positives for Dallas, and my positive is, well,
they're not going to sign Kyrie to a massive extension
in a year, right.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I think I think that Kyrie has been a lot
more good than bad in this postseason run. I also
think he was pretty good tonight for the most part. Again,
the defense hasn't been good enough, but that.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
He scored a lot in the first half, Yeah, yeah,
he did.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
He was a big part of how they got that
early lead. Yeah, But there's he had two absolute stinkers
in Boston and there's just no way around it. And
like the hard part too, is that it looked like
the crowd got to him a little bit. My bigger
fear with Dallas. And this is, by the way, this
is not this is not just emotion speaking. This is
just what NBA history has told us. There hasn't been
a since since Katie left the Warriors, there hasn't been
(38:47):
a team in the West that's even made it twice.
So like it's a different team every year. It's like, oh,
here's the Lakers, here's Phoenix, you know. Oh here's Golden State.
Oh here's Denver, Here's Dallas. Like next year Memphis has come,
John Moran's coming back, Jared Jackson and Desmond Bayner getting better,
They're gonna be right there in the mix with everybody.
Oklahoma City wouldn't be surprised if they were the one
(39:09):
seed again next year. Not to mention they have a
trade to make. The Lakers are probably gonna do something
to go all in. Who knows what the Clippers are
gonna do heading into their new arena. There's so many
good teams in the Western Conference, And like you trick
yourself into thinking like, oh, We're just gonna be there
every year. Like I would be shocked if Dallas made
(39:29):
it back to the finals next year, would you absolutely?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
First of all, Denver is already favored, and Denver will
make They'll make an addition. And Denver led by twenty
in Game seven against Minnesota and matches up much better
with Boston. Also with Boston, we have to be honest.
Porzingis's health is a real issue. This is not a
new thing like this is this is who he is. Also,
it's different after you win. It is hard. You know,
(39:54):
people take a little off season, you know, make a
little longer off season. That's just the reality it is.
I mean Aalen Brown signed of Max played great, you know,
it's he may not equal that. So Also I think
the Knicks will get another player, and I think the
Knicks can be physical enough. Could be a real pain
in the ass for Boston in the playoffs the way
they play, if they can stay healthy and be physical.
(40:14):
So Philadelphia's got cap space, Milwaukee Dame Jannis probably both
don't get hurt. And I think everybody in the West
getting better. I mean, o case, he is interesting. They
they have enough draft capital, they're good. They could get
great with the right edition, like like like that. So yeah,
I think I think listen, I had Boston in six.
(40:36):
It looks like Boston in four. But this this NBA,
which is more international and more parody.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
You know. I sat there tonight and I'm like, if
Dallas comes back and wins, you got to be kidding me. Like,
for for two and a half quarters, I'm like, God,
Boston is this is this is warrior, like with Katie,
this is a machine. And then they just got into
this awful ISO like bad. I I'm talking like old Boston.
(41:08):
I'm talking like twelve and or fourteen shots. You're like
that fallaways Like like I'm like, missoula time out, get
a set play, what do we do? And then you
know Tatum had a couple, Jalen Horford a big defensive play.
But I mean, I think this turned out sort of
how we thought. It's just been quicker.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Well it should have been more competitive, but we all
knew this would happen. You're right, And like again, my
all eyes for me are on Luca. I if he
comes into camp next year and looks physically different, that'll
tell me a lot about what he's learned about his
game and what.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
He needs to do.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
If he's serious about getting to the promised line, I'll
be excited to see that. All right, guys, that's all
we have for tonight. This NBA Finals Game three Instant
Reaction was brought to you by Chase Freedom Unlimited Unlimited
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on everything else. How do you cash back? All right, everybody,
(42:10):
have a good night. We'll be back tomorrow morning to
get a little bit further into this game.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
The volume. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed
the podcast, take a moment rate and review
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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