June 18, 2024 • 42 mins
Colin congratulates the Celtics for winning the NBA title but explains why they're a very good team and not an all-time great team. He believes Luka Doncic needs to improve in 2 key areas in order to get back to the Finals and win his first championship. Plus, Nick Wright from First Things First joins the show to give his thoughts on how Luka played in these Finals
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here we go. It is a Tuesday. We are live,
a Championship Tuesday, live in Los Angeles. It's the Herd
wherever you may be and however you may be watching.
Thanks for Megan hous part of your day. Jmak, you
love Dallas in this series. Let's go back to that.
(00:50):
I had the Celtics and six Jalen Brown the MVP.
I will pat myself on the back. I feel pretty
good about that.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Today Scholl finds it nut once in a while.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Nice, We've done by you. Question, of course, we're always
looking for more in society, right. Is this a one
time team or is it a dynasty? What is it
gonna be? Well, here's what I think. The Celtics are
right team for the right time. Just go back one
year Joe Mizzoula, the head coach, was young, looked like
(01:20):
he was completely over his skis, got worked by Eric
Spolster in the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
This is bad.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Marcus Smart, Why is he shooting so much? He was
more alpha than Jason Tatum, and you weren't quite sure.
Do we give Brown and Tatum extensions? I mean, these
guys aren't winning the title. They're just good in the
regular season. We don't know a lot of success. A
lot of success we don't like to admit it is upstairs.
(01:50):
Brad Stevens, the former coach, goes upstairs and he says,
Joe Mazzola needs help. He put really good guys on
the staff. Now it's a really good staff. He empowered
the staff. He said, you know what, we're a little
bit too much Tatum dependent. Let's bring in poor Zingish,
Drew Holliday, other scores. Take the pressure off. Let's give
(02:12):
Jalen Brown an extension. Make one of our stars very happy.
Know he's long term guy. All of it equaled right team,
right time. Their identity became more team over Tatum. Collaborative basketball,
very very bizarrely deep roster in a time it's hard
(02:33):
to do what they're doing eight guys that can can't shoot,
defend dribble pass. It is a cliche. The Celtics became
the ultimate.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
We over me.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I know it's a cliche. It's nothing against Jason Tatum.
He is an elegant talent, but year after year after
year we kept looking at him to provide the moment.
And Brad Stevens, the guy upstairs who had coached him him, recognized, Hey,
let's put less pressure on him and provide more offensive
(03:09):
artillery so we don't have to every big game put
our microscope on Jason Tatum and let others flourish. And
I've said this, I love Tatum, a great player somewhere
between five and eight in the NBA. But when you
went into a big series and all eyes were on him,
you weren't quite sure what you were getting. I don't
(03:30):
know if this is a great Celtic team. NBA champions
are a little bit like movies that win an Oscar.
Sometimes it's not an all time great picture, it's just
an all time great moment. Everything worked. Who knows with
the future. Poor Zingis's health, He's going into surgery. Cross
your fingers. Al Horford Drew Holliday getting older, will they
(03:54):
be able to work a deal for Derek White? But
right now they deserve credit one the deepest team in
the NBA by a mile. I think Denver would have
been a much better matchup. Dallas was a pinata against
this team. I mean, let's be honest that this was
not a competitive series. It was, for moments a little dramatic.
(04:19):
But what I like about this team, what I really
like about Boston, I picked him to win. I picked
Jalen Brown MVP, but what I really like about him
is that they're they borrowed a little bit of the
Patriots way. Is that it is much more team over
individual star. It is sacrificing for the betterment of us, smart,
(04:45):
efficient over flashy, and in a sport which usually rewards
and worships the individual, I'm totally okay with that. This
was a collaborative basketball effort over alpha guy, get me
mind guy. And maybe that's the new NBA. It's certainly
(05:08):
getting more European, But I thought this was about cohesion
and collaboration and less about Jason Tatum dependency in previous years,
which put a lot of stress on the organization. It
put a lot of stress on Jason Tatum and we
saw in the Eastern Conference Finals. In the finals, Tatum
was okay with Jalen Brown, his partner, his guy. He
(05:32):
was okay him taking and making the big shot. Celtics
have their eighteenth banner. Here's Jason after.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Over the last couple of years, we had some tough
losses at home in the playoffs, and we've lost the
NBA Championship at home in front of our fans. We
had a chance to beat Miami in Game six a
few years ago and lost that one. So to have
a big win, the biggest win that you have in
(06:02):
front of your home crowd, I want. I felt like
that was really important to go out there and do
everything about power to make sure we won his game today.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
They are historically unique where they're number one in the
Eastern Conference Finals in the finals kind of took a
back seat to their two As Tatum reference, over the
last several years, it lost a lot of home playoff
games against kruddy Eastern teams. You're not quite sure on
(06:33):
any night who's gonna provide the it. But that's okay.
They're likable, they're collaborative. It's a different way to win
and it certainly throttled the Dallas Mavericks, and let's talk
about the Dallas Mavericks. The NBA is a star driven sport,
(06:53):
so it is not surprising in the least that Luca
would be worshiped and really really popular. He is just
a raw, pure score the likes we've rarely seen. But
whereas Tim Duncan, Michael and Magic combined for sixteen titles,
Duncan was sturdy, foundationally strong, took pay cuts at the end,
(07:18):
whereas Magic elevated everybody around him, Whereas Michael Jordan was
committed both ends leadership skills against sixteen titles. What Luca
is is a gifted bucket getter who doesn't appear to
be in great shape, is regularly disengaged defensively, and spends
(07:40):
way too much time barking at officials they don't flip
their calls, bro stop. Doesn't it concern you a little
that Jalen Brunson left Luca and became one of the
best players in the league. He went from like a
two to a dominant, game changing, franchise changing one. Maybe
(08:01):
Luca's not that easy to play with, and the threshold
from being a bucket getter iverson mellow great players. All
theimer's to being a championship player is different. A championship
player is committed on both ends, practice early, stays late,
best shape on the team. That's different. Leading the right
(08:24):
way again, Luca is so gifted and has been since
he was fourteen or fifteen years old. Is he a
meanable to change? Is he willing to listen or does
he want to be an all time bucket getter. Michael
Jordan at some point had to trust teammates. Kobe at
some point had to trust Shaq pal Gasol. I mean,
(08:44):
don't get me wrong, Lucas gonna be an all time
great score. But there's a different threshold between that great
bucket getter, all time bucket getter, and champion. And whereas
the Celtics were collaborators and cohesive leader ship from several factions,
the Mavericks were a little too young, kind of lobsided,
(09:07):
and their stars sort of disengaged on defense. There is
a gigantic gap in football from getting to a conference
championship and winning the Super Bowl. Those are your two
toughest wins of the year. A lot of teams get
the conference championships, not a lot of teams in the
last twenty years have won Super Bowls. Patriots, Chiefs have
a lot of them. There's a difference between as a
(09:30):
five seed getting to the finals, Dallas knocking off teams,
surprising teams could have lost to OKC, and winning the
NBA Final in five games in a series that wasn't close.
I mean, the Mavericks are a five seed that overachieved
last year. We're tanking. There is absolutely no guarantees. With
(09:52):
wemby OKC, Denver probably adds a piece. There's no guarantee
Dallas gets close to the finals next year. Again, they
were tanking at the end of last year. Boston has
been good for six years, excellent for the last several.
Here was Luca.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
After now that the series is over, how much were
you hurting?
Speaker 4 (10:15):
It doesn't matter if fall squirt?
Speaker 5 (10:17):
How much was I hurt?
Speaker 4 (10:18):
I was all there.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I tried to play, but I didn't do enough.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
No, no, he did not do enough. The standard changes.
The threshold is greater from bucket getter to champion. One
team put in that commitment on both ends. The other
star hasn't yet. Jamact I will say this, and you
(10:46):
can usually tell pretty early in a series, second quarter,
Game two. I think you and I were texting. It
looked like this is a bad, bad matchup for Dallas.
Their third best player appears to be like a nineteen
year old Kyrie remains hot and cold depending on the game.
(11:07):
In the series, he didn't do a ton.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
He's terrible against Boston, Yes, seriously.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And also it does matter. You can't be disengaged if
you go to Lebron in his peak and Tatum and
you go to MJ and the Kobe's and they were
at least engaged defensively. Steph wasn't great and the Warriors
surrounded with defensive pieces, but he was engaged. He was
(11:31):
on his man like Luca's got to make a big leap.
Everybody thinks it's a tweak. It's not a tweak. Getting
an elite shape from what he's in is not a tweak.
It's a different lifestyle, it's a different level of commitment.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
It's a big mindset change for him, totally other I'm
not giving him a pass, but this was what game
like one hundred for Luca Dan that's a lot. I
don't even think he's gonna play in the Olympics. He's
just like the guy looked beat up. He's like a
mid twenties guy, but moves like a thirty year old.
He's not like fleet of foot, probably carrying ten pounds
too much. I will just go back to this game three.
(12:06):
They cut the lead to three. Remember from twenty one,
and Luca fowls out with like four minutes left. We'll
never know what happens in that game. But if he
doesn't foul out and Dallas wins, maybe this is a series.
But uh, congrats on your Boston pick.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Well, if Mahomes in a bad thigh doesn't pick up
a forty yard scramble first down, there's a lot of
what ifs. Boston is by far and away. We thought
it was Denver last year, but by far and away
the deepest offensive and defensive team in the league. I mean,
they have eight guys who can handle the ball, pass,
shoot eight. Yeah, most NBA teams get to four, like
(12:44):
even Denver. You get to four or five and you're like,
you know, I'd rather Gordon not shoot from the perimeter regularly,
like you just they they got a lot of dudes.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
I know, we love to talk about stars in the
NBA Finals. So Drew Holliday went to the Bucks in
year one title Bucks could not get over the hump.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
They would the ship.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
Drew Alide goes to the Celtics year one Tigle. They
could not get over the hump until they got to
sometimes those glue guys. Yes, and that's what he is.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
He's like the perfect number three.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Yeah, who's outstanding again?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
One?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
No though, I think And I also I'm gonna talk
about this later. Derek White as a four or a five,
like he's a bigger part of their future if they
can't get it right. Remember, how wasn't it Bruce Brown
for Denver last year two years ago? He left, Denver
was not the same team. It's amazing they lost their
glue guy, not a top three star. Denver wasn't the
(13:37):
same offensively. Derek White maybe a four, but he's a
two on almost every other NBA team, a three maybe
on the elite ones like that. That'll be an interesting
offseason to figure out because Tatum's getting the max, Jalen's
got the max. You know, they didn't get poor Zingis
for free. Like they've got some decisions to make, but
(13:58):
they their stars are good. But when you can have
a Porzingis and a Derek White and Al Horford. You're
six or you're five. That's just different. In the rest
of the league.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
The MAVs need to find their Drew Hall.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
They're probably one piece of Wait, let me let me
throw a guy at you. Don't say, Paul George Andrew Wiggins,
and you're not giving up lively, No, no, no, you
have some good pieces there. But I'm saying Andrew Wiggins
is your three or your four. That's what he was
on that Warriors team. Andrew Wiggins is a guy that
(14:29):
can get you eighteen points every night and has occasional
moments where he can be for a half, like takeover
games for brief mos.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Not bad like that Derek Jones.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
You know pretty clearly in this series it wasn't the guy,
and he's a free agent.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Andrew Wiggins is not bad. Look at your team builder
over there. I like that.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You put it off long enough. It's time to replace
your tires. Maybe I'm just trying to help the Selt
or the Warriors. There.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
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Speaker 1 (15:03):
App The sports media is younger and softer than ever,
so if you occasionally offer criticism, you're scene as harsh
and too intense. And I've said this about Jason Tatum.
I'm viewed as a Tatum critic, but I love his game.
He's it's as esthetically pleasing. He's long, he's fluid. He's
a three level scorer. But I have been saying for years.
(15:26):
Last year it was like Brown and Marcus Smart with
the Alpha Alpha's. He was like a third. He was
the best player, but late in games it's like Marcus
Smart would be taking shots. He's a defensive guy. And
I said during these playoffs, I said, I think Jalen
Brown's the Alpha. Well, he won the Eastern Conference Final
MVP and last night the finals MVP. It's a it's
(15:49):
not a myth. Jalen Brown's the go to guy. He
guarded Luca way more than Tatum. He was more efficient,
he shot the ball better. He's the Alpha. Score in
thirty one when you're up twenty one at half does
not conjure up memories of Michael Jordan. Again, I think
he's a terrific player, But Jalen Brown did the Luca
(16:13):
guarding Jalen Brown was more efficient that Game three, Remember
it got tight, could have gone either way. It was
the big dunk by Brown, it was the twenty footer
by Jalen Brown. He had the two biggest baskets. It's
not a knock on Tatum. It's a reality. He scored
under twenty and three of five games. If you look
at his regular season numbers against a very weak Eastern Conference,
(16:37):
which are staggeringly good compared to his finals numbers, he
punched below his weight. He shot twenty six percent from
three in the finals. That's just who he is. So
last night when he didn't win the MVP, I'm like
guys recency bias. It was a blowout. He was elegant.
He's a beautiful basketball player. But that doesn't Brad Stevens
(17:01):
told you the truth. Brad Stevens wanted to make this
team more of an offensive collaboration than Tatum dependent. They
weren't doing that with MJ. They weren't doing that with Kobe.
They're not doing that with Bird. Bird had of their
players he played with, but everybody knew who took the
final shot. That's okay, But the general manager told you
(17:25):
what he thought was championship basketball. Across eleven finals games
in his career, he shoots thirty eight percent. Just numbers
facts over Felix. I didn't make the numbers up. So
I've said I think he deserves to be a champion.
He's a wonderful player, but historically Tatum is unique. Usually,
(17:49):
are stars, your magic's, your birds. I mean, I don't
even have to name them. They sort of grab that
big moment, They grab it by the throat and they
take it over. He doesn't do that, and so I
think it's very fair to say he and Brown who's
better depends. I trust Brown and his defense and his
(18:14):
aggressiveness more than I trust Tatum in a big moment.
But I think Tatum is more aesthetically pleasing and a
more talented player. Two things can be true. By the way,
for all of you that think I'm too harsh, Steph
Curry had two MVPs and three trophies, and before that
(18:39):
win over the Celtics, you were still demanding that Steph
Curry prove it to you, and I thought that was insane.
Tatum until last night did not have a championship trophy.
Steph had three two MVPs. I think one or both
were unanimous best shooter on the planet, great and big moments,
(19:03):
and to the end we were questioning Steph Curry.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
I can't go.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I think Brown's the alpha. I think on any given night,
Tatum's more talented. I trust Brown in big spots. Go
look at who won the MVP of the Eastern Conference
finals and the finals. It's not criticism to just say,
here's the numbers, here are the facts. Here was I
set this headline today? Jason Tatum silencing the critics didn't
(19:34):
silence me. I still have questions if I would trust
him in a big spot. He's just really talented. Here
he is after this is a career defying accomplishment.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Say that again.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Please, a career defils Please.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Say that again. These last seven years been a roller
coast up and down. Had to listen on the people
said about me, and tonight it was worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Oh my god, Yeah, hey silenced his critics. Who won
the finals MVP one pipping win of those.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
Was win of those.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
You know, your most valuable player who guarded Luca. Oh,
I'm a hater. Remember what people were saying like three
years ago with Steph who had three trophies, two MVP's.
Everybody was Steph hasn't proven it, and I'm like, he
won before KD, he won during KD. That's not good enough.
You got you gotta put another one, and you demanded
(20:35):
he did, and he did as KD had left. So
I don't think questioning some things about Tatum. Sorry, I
don't think it's out of bounce. I mean that's you
get to the top of the mountain. Wind blows a
little harder, as they say.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
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Speaker 6 (20:54):
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(21:15):
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Speaker 1 (21:24):
Let's Go Live to Nick Wright co hosts First Things First?
Who is Now Jonius Live Customary On Tuesday, All right,
So let's start with this. I said, just because you
win the Oscars for Best Movie, you're not an all
time movie. It could be an all time moment. And
I think this moment in time. A week east Denver
(21:45):
knocked out Dallas a little over their skis as a
five seed. It's a moment in time. This is a
great Chris Brussard did this yesterday. He said, you can
go back to the Doctor Jay got Moses Malone team.
It wasn't a dynasty, but for a year or two
they were. They were really, really great. Is that how
you classify this Celtics team.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well, listen, I don't want the first thing I say
on TV posts them winning the championship to be downplaying them.
So I'm going I will answer your question eventually, but
I first want to say this, this is a great
team in this moment in time, and they're a bit
(22:29):
those of us. And I raise my hand that doubted
this team. Doubted them mostly because we said, well, they've
got a bunch of they've got a lot of good players,
a couple very good players, but they don't have any
historically great players. And history tells us that you can't
(22:52):
win a championship that way. This Finals, to me, validated
their lack of historic great players, but it also validated
the way they built their full team to make it
not matter that Jason Tatum didn't have a great series.
It didn't matter that Jalen Brown struggled from three, It
(23:15):
didn't matter. How about this Colin. This to me is
a stat no one has said until this very moment,
but it speaks to how brilliant they were defensively. The
fewest points the Boston Celtics scored in any five game
stretch all season were the five games of the NBA Finals,
(23:41):
and they rolled to a title. Think about what that means. Offensively,
They just had their worst five game stretch of the
year and they won pretty easily in five games. Why
because they can guard one through five. They have no
weakness is in that starting lineup. There are a lot
(24:03):
of similarities to me to the two thousand and four
Detroit Pistons, not stylistically, but as far as no weakness
is in the starting lineup. You don't know who's going
to be the best offensive player any given night. Four
of your five starters can give you twenty at any moment,
and they are so connected and so great defensively that
(24:27):
they crush you. So that's all the compliments. Now, to
answer your question, when we say all time great, what
do we mean there have been seventy seven NBA champions.
Are we saying they're one of the ten greatest teams? Well,
they're clearly not that. Are we saying they are one
of the twenty five greatest? Okay? Maybe, Like if you
(24:47):
want to say this is the twenty fourth best team
in NBA history, so be it. But when we're the
question I would ask the audience is are you convinced
this year's Celtics are best then last year's Nuggets? No,
I'm not. I think that's an argument either direction. Right,
last year's Nuggets were not an all time team. So
(25:08):
this cell there are no yeah butts about it. They
won the championship. No one in the future will care
about the path, injuries any of that. They won the
damn title. But do I think they're a historic team. No,
I don't think we've had a historically great team since
the Kadis Steph Warriors. I don't think any champion since
(25:29):
then has been historically great.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You know what I had said about Luca, I said
the difference. The threshold between great bucket getter and champion
is different. Duncan, Michael and Magic sixteen titles. They were
foundational leaders. Like defensively, Magic not a great defender. But
there is a huge gap between Iverson and Lebron. Both
(25:54):
get buckets and Luca looked overweight most of the year,
looked tired in the finals. I mean, when Jalen brunch
and leaves and not only flourishes, becomes a superstar in
the league, he's maybe not the easiest guy to play with,
perpetually barking. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I mean, I don't know. Kyrie seemed to get along
with him pretty well. Kyrie couldn't get along with any
player for five years. Kyrie played his best basketball in
six years. I won't abide this, colin. I mean, you
talk about Luca being overweight. It hurt him so badly.
He led the league in scoring, he had his fifth
straight All NBA First team year, and he dragged the
MAVs to the finals. In all of NBA history, as
(26:36):
of a year ago, the only person ever to lead
the playoffs in points, rebounds, and assists was Jokic. Last year,
there is now a second person on that list. It's
Luka Doncic, and he led the playoffs in steels like
there are. Kyrie struggled in all three games in Boston.
(26:56):
The MAVs role players, none of them played up to
their playoff standard, now did Luca. For them to win
the title, they needed a A plus basketball from Luca.
They did not get that. That is totally legitimate. But
the idea that we are going to use this season,
(27:17):
at age twenty five years old, to do anything other
than build up the legend of Luka Doncic is insane
to me. He is He has gotten further in the
playoffs at this age than Michael then Lebron, than Jannis
van Jokic, van Steph. He has gotten as far in
(27:38):
the playoffs at this age as Durant He had the
guy's Kobe Duncan Magic, who got further at this age,
had a Hall of Famer in their prime alongside them.
The Lucas stuff is not This is not the time
to go after Luca now what he He lost his
(28:02):
opportunity Colin to be the best player in the world.
That's Jokich now until until further notice. Pardon me, but
if you have a top three and Lucas not in it.
Your top three is invalids. So if you don't have
him as one of the three best players in the world,
I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Looked a little puffy to me, a little fatigued, but
you know that.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, he needs to get in better shape. He does,
but you know what can tire people out carrying this
team to the NBA finals and he's never has the
greatest cardio. That he does need to improve. There's no
doubt about that. He needs to improve that. But I
do think where he wouldn't use the injury as an excuse.
(28:47):
I think the injury made him look slower than he
actually was. But yeah, to get to the next level,
he needs to get in slightly better shape. But my
point is the next level is clear cut best player alive.
If he stays at this level, he's going to be
one of the twenty five greatest players of all time.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So I was you know, it was interesting when Aaron
missed the mini camp and I said, yesterday, you know,
and I've said this before, never married, no kids, Not
sure he has a pet. As you get older and richer,
you can get a little self absorbed, like you know, wives, kids, sacrificing.
(29:25):
So I've seen this in the media. I've seen it
in sports. So if Aaron didn't want to go there
but to be a foxhole guy, the GM missed on
a quarterback in a left tackle, the coaches on the
hot seat. You have an offensive line that's brand new,
that won't play much in the preseason because old offensive
linemen don't and an old receiver coming in and two
(29:48):
new ones. And I said, you would just show up
for the team, Like if we were having a morale
building three day seminar, I think I'd show up for
the FS one. You know event you show up, Yeah,
you show up. If not for yourself, I'm that's not
a learning event for me. It's a team thing. It
(30:12):
does sort of rub me the wrong way. It's like, Aaron,
you played four snaps last year.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
It's it's you got Colin. I think you're being a
little too gentle. If the reports are true, the hey
give me in ten words or less, what happened with
Aaron Rodgers last week? The answer is skipped work to
do drugs. I don't really need a longer story than that. Now,
(30:40):
I'm like that that I know that and people are like, oh, Nick,
get with the times, guys. I am open to the healing, recuperative,
and therapeutic powers of a lot of substances. Some are
legal in this country, some are not. I am not
a prude in that regard. I will listen to you
on it. I got I got friends in New York
(31:01):
that walk around Central Park microdosing mushrooms and say, oh,
it's a changed my life. I'm open to it. But
if you had a buddy that had was a year
into a new job and the first year didn't go great,
and it's like, oh, they're having that company wide off
site that you've known about for months. Are you excited
(31:23):
for it? And it's like, oh, I actually told them
I can't make it and it's why I'm leaving the
country to go do drugs. You'd be like, buddy, I
think you won't have your priorities in order right, And
it's like, no, no, no, I need this for my
mental health and all of these things. But I'm going
to use an awkward Colin Coward analogy and that I'm
(31:46):
not that great at There are a lot of things
that folks would like to do that what might improve
their mental health the new thing everybody does. Everybody brings
a dog on an airplane, Yeah, because they're a nervous flyer.
You know what really relaxes me on an airplane, a delicious,
(32:07):
full flavored cigarette. I'm not allowed to do it, even
though it make me feel a lot better, because they're like, hey,
those are the rules. You know what, I bet Tyrone
Smith or somebody on the Jets might say, you know,
to get my mind right before the season, I would
really like seven days in Bali with no one bothering
(32:29):
me on a beach zin meditating. And you know what,
the Jets would say, no problem, buddy, there are four
weeks on the front end and six weeks on the
back end. When that's available, these three days, can you
make sure you're at work? And every other player was
able to say yes, and Aaron said, can't make it.
(32:49):
This trip is too important. And if that trip is
because this is when I had scheduled months ago my
retreat to go to Ayahuasca, I don't know why we
have to addy cake around it. It is a ridiculous
choice and it is an indefensible choice. And what is
going to happen, Colin is when Aaron comes out and
(33:10):
talks about this publicly. This is my prediction. Not only
is he not going to take accountability, he is going
to not so subtly slap Robert Sala's wrist.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Well, I don't know why that was, you know, discussed
the way it was. I did let them know. I'd
like to keep things in house and try to remind
everyone with the Jets that I am the top dog here,
up to and including missing an event that every single
one of my teammates aside from Son Reddick, who's not
even fully a teammate yet, was at because I had
(33:43):
a pre scheduled appointment to go do ayahuasca supposedly.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I want to end it on this because it's it's
a cultural discussion as much as a basketball discussion. My
initial take, and I'm standing by it, is that the
media doesn't know how to hand angel Reaes and Caitlin Clark,
but angel Ree and Caitlin Clark know how to handle it.
The media is parachuted in and awkwardly defended Clark, who's like,
(34:11):
I don't need defending its basketball. That was my initial take.
It's still my take. She's an excellent player. Both are
actually and that they're fine, and that there were one
hundred and thirty flagrants last year this year in the NBA.
There were sixty five last year in the WNBA, exactly half,
(34:31):
and they have exactly half the games. So flagrants happen
sometimes not by villains, many of the most like players
comit a flagrant. Things happen in sports. And I'm going
to double down on this is that Angel and Caitlin
for their age, are handling it almost like Dak Prescott
(34:52):
level where they go to the podium, they know exactly
what they're doing. It is us that doesn't know how
to handle it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Parachuting in that is exactly right. So that is exactly right.
So like listen, if I were advising Caitlin Clark, what
I have told her, Hey, there are some really nefarious
bad actors using you to be divisive and you might
want to get out ahead of this earlier than she did. Yes,
(35:19):
I would have advised her for that, But I think
she has handled all of this scrutiny in her early
twenties and fame and all of it about. I give
her like a a minus on the grade sheet. Angel Reese,
would I have advised her, Hey, if you're going to
kind of lean into the villain role at the press conference.
(35:40):
Don't say the refs. You know, it took control of
the game. There could be a little more accountability right
after the moment. Sure, but I give her an a
minus in how she's handled it. I give the Internet
and the sports media not only an F but you
have to repeat the class. It is shameful what we're
(36:03):
doing to these two young women and the way they
are being used as pawns in what is our never
ending national culture war that has race at the forefront
of it. There is there the fact that there are
(36:24):
folks that paid for verified Twitter accounts and are now
trying to suckle off Elon's money by putting up disingenuous
fanning the flame tweets. Whether it is that, you know,
Caitlyn Clark is this delicate flower that needs to be protected,
Angel Reese is some you know, some predatory villain, or
(36:47):
the flip side of it, the folks tweeting actually, when
you look at it, Caitlyn Clark not that good at
basketball all to get engagement because they're going to get
a check from Twitter at the end of the month. Shameful.
What is undeniably true. Is this these two young women
who are the two most famous players in the league.
(37:08):
Far from the two best, but right now they're the
two most famous. They have been the best and the
second best rookie so far this year, the only two
rookies averaging more than ten points a game, these two
Caitlin one of two players in the league averaging fifteen
to five and five Angel the only rookie averaging double
digit rebounds, and neither one of them is playing into
(37:32):
this hole. They hate each other. Piece. I do think
there's a real rivalry. I do think there is competitive fire.
And what they are doing Colin, if I may just quickly,
it is exactly what the media begs NBA guys to do.
Oh back in Michael Zeira, every people weren't so buddy, buddy.
(37:54):
Now everyone's friends, where's the competitive fire? We are seeing
it and we're comp about it and trying to turn
it into something that it's not. It's a great basketball
story and it's great for the league. At some point
it will go back to being a basketball story.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah. Yeah, I think the girls are great. I mean
it is and I will say I will say this
with a bunch of kids in my life is that
my kids are more mature than I was, certainly at
this time. You know, they've grown up with the you know, tech,
and they they've gotten access to more information and they're smarter.
And I think a lot of it is Caitlin Clark
(38:33):
has watched how to handle controversies in her life. She's
been a rock star for two or three years. She's
brilliant at the podium. And Angel Reese is kind of
leaning into the villain. And that's okay too, because that's
ok yeah. I have defended Draymond Green, not just because
he works at my company occasionally, rarely infrequently. But the
(38:55):
point is, Steve Kerr considers him, after Curry, the most
value commodity, the most viable player. There's what Angel's doing
is needed on virtually every basketball team in time.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
And if I made just quickly and then I know
we got to go. It is so patronizing to both
of them, acting as if Caitlyn needs protecting. She has
been a badass as a basketball player her whole life.
She doesn't need protecting, and acting as if Angel is
(39:31):
infallible in everything and that any criticism is unfair. She
is a star athlete. We that we you know what
we do with star athletes, pick at them, criticize them.
They are both and they will both be better for this,
for going through this. And I think eventually they are
(39:52):
going to be the actual earned faces of the league
rather than you know, great college players who are having
good rook seas. And it'll be excellent for it. But
their people are uncomfortable with the fact that Caitlin, the
hot shot, high scoring rookie that's a little undersize, is
(40:13):
getting beat up a bit. But that is the story
of sports. Yes, And it is not about her being
a white girl, and it is not about any of
this other stuff. It is she is this rookie that
is trying to light the league on fire. Yeah, and
bigger people are going to remind her it's not going
to be that easy. That is how sports work, guys. Yeah,
(40:35):
that's just how it works. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
By the way, Bryce Harper dealt with this, not for
a six game stretch, for three years. He walked into
I said this yesterday. The WNBA and baseball are similar
in that both have lamented the attention other sports get
NBA NFL more than baseball. WNBA is like, hey, we
got an audience. You talk NBA, and so they're very insular.
(41:00):
They can be a bit defensive. They're very proud baseball.
There's a way to play WNBA and we got this.
We're good at what we do, so I understand they're
a little defensive. When a newcomer comes in a lot
of US parachute to talk about their sports and only
talk Bryce Harper and Caitlyn Clark, like, I get a
(41:20):
little pushback, and I'm I'm totally it's the junior senator
like I get. When Tiger Woods came into golf. I
can remember being a local sportscaster. Do you guys ever
show anybody but Tiger? And I'm like, he makes golf interesting.
To your point, Bryce Harper, Caitlyn Clark, Tiger Woods, we
have seen this over and over, by the way, and
(41:43):
as far as the golf's very insular as well.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yes, and this I'll leave it at this. And even
you mentioned guys who were all time greats or Tiger
obviously Bryce a really, really great player, but the hey,
this rookie's getting a little too much publicity and we
want to take him down a notch. Go look at somebody,
go back and watch Lonzo balls first ten games and
(42:08):
how he was guarded honestly, and that wasn't race, that
wasn't money, that was essentially your daddy talks too much
and we don't like it. And so that is part
of sports, guys, and everyone needs to just take a
deep breath and recognize whether you like it or not.
The WNBA is going to follow a lot of the
(42:29):
beats of sports because it's a sport, that's all
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three Eastern nine am to
noon Pacific. Find your local station for The Herd at
Fox Sports Radio dot com, or stream us live every
day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio
or FSR.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here we go. It is a Tuesday. We are live,
a Championship Tuesday, live in Los Angeles. It's the Herd
wherever you may be and however you may be watching.
Thanks for Megan hous part of your day. Jmak, you
love Dallas in this series. Let's go back to that.
(00:50):
I had the Celtics and six Jalen Brown the MVP.
I will pat myself on the back. I feel pretty
good about that.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Today Scholl finds it nut once in a while.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Nice, We've done by you. Question, of course, we're always
looking for more in society, right. Is this a one
time team or is it a dynasty? What is it
gonna be? Well, here's what I think. The Celtics are
right team for the right time. Just go back one
year Joe Mizzoula, the head coach, was young, looked like
(01:20):
he was completely over his skis, got worked by Eric
Spolster in the playoffs.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
This is bad.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Marcus Smart, Why is he shooting so much? He was
more alpha than Jason Tatum, and you weren't quite sure.
Do we give Brown and Tatum extensions? I mean, these
guys aren't winning the title. They're just good in the
regular season. We don't know a lot of success. A
lot of success we don't like to admit it is upstairs.
(01:50):
Brad Stevens, the former coach, goes upstairs and he says,
Joe Mazzola needs help. He put really good guys on
the staff. Now it's a really good staff. He empowered
the staff. He said, you know what, we're a little
bit too much Tatum dependent. Let's bring in poor Zingish,
Drew Holliday, other scores. Take the pressure off. Let's give
(02:12):
Jalen Brown an extension. Make one of our stars very happy.
Know he's long term guy. All of it equaled right team,
right time. Their identity became more team over Tatum. Collaborative basketball,
very very bizarrely deep roster in a time it's hard
(02:33):
to do what they're doing eight guys that can can't shoot,
defend dribble pass. It is a cliche. The Celtics became
the ultimate.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
We over me.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I know it's a cliche. It's nothing against Jason Tatum.
He is an elegant talent, but year after year after
year we kept looking at him to provide the moment.
And Brad Stevens, the guy upstairs who had coached him him, recognized, Hey,
let's put less pressure on him and provide more offensive
(03:09):
artillery so we don't have to every big game put
our microscope on Jason Tatum and let others flourish. And
I've said this, I love Tatum, a great player somewhere
between five and eight in the NBA. But when you
went into a big series and all eyes were on him,
you weren't quite sure what you were getting. I don't
(03:30):
know if this is a great Celtic team. NBA champions
are a little bit like movies that win an Oscar.
Sometimes it's not an all time great picture, it's just
an all time great moment. Everything worked. Who knows with
the future. Poor Zingis's health, He's going into surgery. Cross
your fingers. Al Horford Drew Holliday getting older, will they
(03:54):
be able to work a deal for Derek White? But
right now they deserve credit one the deepest team in
the NBA by a mile. I think Denver would have
been a much better matchup. Dallas was a pinata against
this team. I mean, let's be honest that this was
not a competitive series. It was, for moments a little dramatic.
(04:19):
But what I like about this team, what I really
like about Boston, I picked him to win. I picked
Jalen Brown MVP, but what I really like about him
is that they're they borrowed a little bit of the
Patriots way. Is that it is much more team over
individual star. It is sacrificing for the betterment of us, smart,
(04:45):
efficient over flashy, and in a sport which usually rewards
and worships the individual, I'm totally okay with that. This
was a collaborative basketball effort over alpha guy, get me
mind guy. And maybe that's the new NBA. It's certainly
(05:08):
getting more European, But I thought this was about cohesion
and collaboration and less about Jason Tatum dependency in previous years,
which put a lot of stress on the organization. It
put a lot of stress on Jason Tatum and we
saw in the Eastern Conference Finals. In the finals, Tatum
was okay with Jalen Brown, his partner, his guy. He
(05:32):
was okay him taking and making the big shot. Celtics
have their eighteenth banner. Here's Jason after.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Over the last couple of years, we had some tough
losses at home in the playoffs, and we've lost the
NBA Championship at home in front of our fans. We
had a chance to beat Miami in Game six a
few years ago and lost that one. So to have
a big win, the biggest win that you have in
(06:02):
front of your home crowd, I want. I felt like
that was really important to go out there and do
everything about power to make sure we won his game today.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
They are historically unique where they're number one in the
Eastern Conference Finals in the finals kind of took a
back seat to their two As Tatum reference, over the
last several years, it lost a lot of home playoff
games against kruddy Eastern teams. You're not quite sure on
(06:33):
any night who's gonna provide the it. But that's okay.
They're likable, they're collaborative. It's a different way to win
and it certainly throttled the Dallas Mavericks, and let's talk
about the Dallas Mavericks. The NBA is a star driven sport,
(06:53):
so it is not surprising in the least that Luca
would be worshiped and really really popular. He is just
a raw, pure score the likes we've rarely seen. But
whereas Tim Duncan, Michael and Magic combined for sixteen titles,
Duncan was sturdy, foundationally strong, took pay cuts at the end,
(07:18):
whereas Magic elevated everybody around him, Whereas Michael Jordan was
committed both ends leadership skills against sixteen titles. What Luca
is is a gifted bucket getter who doesn't appear to
be in great shape, is regularly disengaged defensively, and spends
(07:40):
way too much time barking at officials they don't flip
their calls, bro stop. Doesn't it concern you a little
that Jalen Brunson left Luca and became one of the
best players in the league. He went from like a
two to a dominant, game changing, franchise changing one. Maybe
(08:01):
Luca's not that easy to play with, and the threshold
from being a bucket getter iverson mellow great players. All
theimer's to being a championship player is different. A championship
player is committed on both ends, practice early, stays late,
best shape on the team. That's different. Leading the right
(08:24):
way again, Luca is so gifted and has been since
he was fourteen or fifteen years old. Is he a
meanable to change? Is he willing to listen or does
he want to be an all time bucket getter. Michael
Jordan at some point had to trust teammates. Kobe at
some point had to trust Shaq pal Gasol. I mean,
(08:44):
don't get me wrong, Lucas gonna be an all time
great score. But there's a different threshold between that great
bucket getter, all time bucket getter, and champion. And whereas
the Celtics were collaborators and cohesive leader ship from several factions,
the Mavericks were a little too young, kind of lobsided,
(09:07):
and their stars sort of disengaged on defense. There is
a gigantic gap in football from getting to a conference
championship and winning the Super Bowl. Those are your two
toughest wins of the year. A lot of teams get
the conference championships, not a lot of teams in the
last twenty years have won Super Bowls. Patriots, Chiefs have
a lot of them. There's a difference between as a
(09:30):
five seed getting to the finals, Dallas knocking off teams,
surprising teams could have lost to OKC, and winning the
NBA Final in five games in a series that wasn't close.
I mean, the Mavericks are a five seed that overachieved
last year. We're tanking. There is absolutely no guarantees. With
(09:52):
wemby OKC, Denver probably adds a piece. There's no guarantee
Dallas gets close to the finals next year. Again, they
were tanking at the end of last year. Boston has
been good for six years, excellent for the last several.
Here was Luca.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
After now that the series is over, how much were
you hurting?
Speaker 4 (10:15):
It doesn't matter if fall squirt?
Speaker 5 (10:17):
How much was I hurt?
Speaker 4 (10:18):
I was all there.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I tried to play, but I didn't do enough.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
No, no, he did not do enough. The standard changes.
The threshold is greater from bucket getter to champion. One
team put in that commitment on both ends. The other
star hasn't yet. Jamact I will say this, and you
(10:46):
can usually tell pretty early in a series, second quarter,
Game two. I think you and I were texting. It
looked like this is a bad, bad matchup for Dallas.
Their third best player appears to be like a nineteen
year old Kyrie remains hot and cold depending on the game.
(11:07):
In the series, he didn't do a ton.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
He's terrible against Boston, Yes, seriously.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And also it does matter. You can't be disengaged if
you go to Lebron in his peak and Tatum and
you go to MJ and the Kobe's and they were
at least engaged defensively. Steph wasn't great and the Warriors
surrounded with defensive pieces, but he was engaged. He was
(11:31):
on his man like Luca's got to make a big leap.
Everybody thinks it's a tweak. It's not a tweak. Getting
an elite shape from what he's in is not a tweak.
It's a different lifestyle, it's a different level of commitment.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
It's a big mindset change for him, totally other I'm
not giving him a pass, but this was what game
like one hundred for Luca Dan that's a lot. I
don't even think he's gonna play in the Olympics. He's
just like the guy looked beat up. He's like a
mid twenties guy, but moves like a thirty year old.
He's not like fleet of foot, probably carrying ten pounds
too much. I will just go back to this game three.
(12:06):
They cut the lead to three. Remember from twenty one,
and Luca fowls out with like four minutes left. We'll
never know what happens in that game. But if he
doesn't foul out and Dallas wins, maybe this is a series.
But uh, congrats on your Boston pick.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Well, if Mahomes in a bad thigh doesn't pick up
a forty yard scramble first down, there's a lot of
what ifs. Boston is by far and away. We thought
it was Denver last year, but by far and away
the deepest offensive and defensive team in the league. I mean,
they have eight guys who can handle the ball, pass,
shoot eight. Yeah, most NBA teams get to four, like
(12:44):
even Denver. You get to four or five and you're like,
you know, I'd rather Gordon not shoot from the perimeter regularly,
like you just they they got a lot of dudes.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
I know, we love to talk about stars in the
NBA Finals. So Drew Holliday went to the Bucks in
year one title Bucks could not get over the hump.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
They would the ship.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
Drew Alide goes to the Celtics year one Tigle. They
could not get over the hump until they got to
sometimes those glue guys. Yes, and that's what he is.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
He's like the perfect number three.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Yeah, who's outstanding again?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
One?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
No though, I think And I also I'm gonna talk
about this later. Derek White as a four or a five,
like he's a bigger part of their future if they
can't get it right. Remember, how wasn't it Bruce Brown
for Denver last year two years ago? He left, Denver
was not the same team. It's amazing they lost their
glue guy, not a top three star. Denver wasn't the
(13:37):
same offensively. Derek White maybe a four, but he's a
two on almost every other NBA team, a three maybe
on the elite ones like that. That'll be an interesting
offseason to figure out because Tatum's getting the max, Jalen's
got the max. You know, they didn't get poor Zingis
for free. Like they've got some decisions to make, but
(13:58):
they their stars are good. But when you can have
a Porzingis and a Derek White and Al Horford. You're
six or you're five. That's just different. In the rest
of the league.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
The MAVs need to find their Drew Hall.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
They're probably one piece of Wait, let me let me
throw a guy at you. Don't say, Paul George Andrew Wiggins,
and you're not giving up lively, No, no, no, you
have some good pieces there. But I'm saying Andrew Wiggins
is your three or your four. That's what he was
on that Warriors team. Andrew Wiggins is a guy that
(14:29):
can get you eighteen points every night and has occasional
moments where he can be for a half, like takeover
games for brief mos.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Not bad like that Derek Jones.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
You know pretty clearly in this series it wasn't the guy,
and he's a free agent.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Andrew Wiggins is not bad. Look at your team builder
over there. I like that.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You put it off long enough. It's time to replace
your tires. Maybe I'm just trying to help the Selt
or the Warriors. There.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and noon Easter not a em Pacific on Fox Sports
Radio FS one and the iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
App The sports media is younger and softer than ever,
so if you occasionally offer criticism, you're scene as harsh
and too intense. And I've said this about Jason Tatum.
I'm viewed as a Tatum critic, but I love his game.
He's it's as esthetically pleasing. He's long, he's fluid. He's
a three level scorer. But I have been saying for years.
(15:26):
Last year it was like Brown and Marcus Smart with
the Alpha Alpha's. He was like a third. He was
the best player, but late in games it's like Marcus
Smart would be taking shots. He's a defensive guy. And
I said during these playoffs, I said, I think Jalen
Brown's the Alpha. Well, he won the Eastern Conference Final
MVP and last night the finals MVP. It's a it's
(15:49):
not a myth. Jalen Brown's the go to guy. He
guarded Luca way more than Tatum. He was more efficient,
he shot the ball better. He's the Alpha. Score in
thirty one when you're up twenty one at half does
not conjure up memories of Michael Jordan. Again, I think
he's a terrific player, But Jalen Brown did the Luca
(16:13):
guarding Jalen Brown was more efficient that Game three, Remember
it got tight, could have gone either way. It was
the big dunk by Brown, it was the twenty footer
by Jalen Brown. He had the two biggest baskets. It's
not a knock on Tatum. It's a reality. He scored
under twenty and three of five games. If you look
at his regular season numbers against a very weak Eastern Conference,
(16:37):
which are staggeringly good compared to his finals numbers, he
punched below his weight. He shot twenty six percent from
three in the finals. That's just who he is. So
last night when he didn't win the MVP, I'm like
guys recency bias. It was a blowout. He was elegant.
He's a beautiful basketball player. But that doesn't Brad Stevens
(17:01):
told you the truth. Brad Stevens wanted to make this
team more of an offensive collaboration than Tatum dependent. They
weren't doing that with MJ. They weren't doing that with Kobe.
They're not doing that with Bird. Bird had of their
players he played with, but everybody knew who took the
final shot. That's okay, But the general manager told you
(17:25):
what he thought was championship basketball. Across eleven finals games
in his career, he shoots thirty eight percent. Just numbers
facts over Felix. I didn't make the numbers up. So
I've said I think he deserves to be a champion.
He's a wonderful player, but historically Tatum is unique. Usually,
(17:49):
are stars, your magic's, your birds. I mean, I don't
even have to name them. They sort of grab that
big moment, They grab it by the throat and they
take it over. He doesn't do that, and so I
think it's very fair to say he and Brown who's
better depends. I trust Brown and his defense and his
(18:14):
aggressiveness more than I trust Tatum in a big moment.
But I think Tatum is more aesthetically pleasing and a
more talented player. Two things can be true. By the way,
for all of you that think I'm too harsh, Steph
Curry had two MVPs and three trophies, and before that
(18:39):
win over the Celtics, you were still demanding that Steph
Curry prove it to you, and I thought that was insane.
Tatum until last night did not have a championship trophy.
Steph had three two MVPs. I think one or both
were unanimous best shooter on the planet, great and big moments,
(19:03):
and to the end we were questioning Steph Curry.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
I can't go.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I think Brown's the alpha. I think on any given night,
Tatum's more talented. I trust Brown in big spots. Go
look at who won the MVP of the Eastern Conference
finals and the finals. It's not criticism to just say,
here's the numbers, here are the facts. Here was I
set this headline today? Jason Tatum silencing the critics didn't
(19:34):
silence me. I still have questions if I would trust
him in a big spot. He's just really talented. Here
he is after this is a career defying accomplishment.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Say that again.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Please, a career defils Please.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Say that again. These last seven years been a roller
coast up and down. Had to listen on the people
said about me, and tonight it was worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Oh my god, Yeah, hey silenced his critics. Who won
the finals MVP one pipping win of those.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
Was win of those.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
You know, your most valuable player who guarded Luca. Oh,
I'm a hater. Remember what people were saying like three
years ago with Steph who had three trophies, two MVP's.
Everybody was Steph hasn't proven it, and I'm like, he
won before KD, he won during KD. That's not good enough.
You got you gotta put another one, and you demanded
(20:35):
he did, and he did as KD had left. So
I don't think questioning some things about Tatum. Sorry, I
don't think it's out of bounce. I mean that's you
get to the top of the mountain. Wind blows a
little harder, as they say.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
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Speaker 6 (20:54):
Hey, it's me Rock Parker. Check out my weekly MLB podcast,
Inside Parker for twenty two minutes of piping hot baseball
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Whether you believe in analytics or the eye test, We've
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(21:15):
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Speaker 1 (21:24):
Let's Go Live to Nick Wright co hosts First Things First?
Who is Now Jonius Live Customary On Tuesday, All right,
So let's start with this. I said, just because you
win the Oscars for Best Movie, you're not an all
time movie. It could be an all time moment. And
I think this moment in time. A week east Denver
(21:45):
knocked out Dallas a little over their skis as a
five seed. It's a moment in time. This is a
great Chris Brussard did this yesterday. He said, you can
go back to the Doctor Jay got Moses Malone team.
It wasn't a dynasty, but for a year or two
they were. They were really, really great. Is that how
you classify this Celtics team.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well, listen, I don't want the first thing I say
on TV posts them winning the championship to be downplaying them.
So I'm going I will answer your question eventually, but
I first want to say this, this is a great
team in this moment in time, and they're a bit
(22:29):
those of us. And I raise my hand that doubted
this team. Doubted them mostly because we said, well, they've
got a bunch of they've got a lot of good players,
a couple very good players, but they don't have any
historically great players. And history tells us that you can't
(22:52):
win a championship that way. This Finals, to me, validated
their lack of historic great players, but it also validated
the way they built their full team to make it
not matter that Jason Tatum didn't have a great series.
It didn't matter that Jalen Brown struggled from three, It
(23:15):
didn't matter. How about this Colin. This to me is
a stat no one has said until this very moment,
but it speaks to how brilliant they were defensively. The
fewest points the Boston Celtics scored in any five game
stretch all season were the five games of the NBA Finals,
(23:41):
and they rolled to a title. Think about what that means. Offensively,
They just had their worst five game stretch of the
year and they won pretty easily in five games. Why
because they can guard one through five. They have no
weakness is in that starting lineup. There are a lot
(24:03):
of similarities to me to the two thousand and four
Detroit Pistons, not stylistically, but as far as no weakness
is in the starting lineup. You don't know who's going
to be the best offensive player any given night. Four
of your five starters can give you twenty at any moment,
and they are so connected and so great defensively that
(24:27):
they crush you. So that's all the compliments. Now, to
answer your question, when we say all time great, what
do we mean there have been seventy seven NBA champions.
Are we saying they're one of the ten greatest teams? Well,
they're clearly not that. Are we saying they are one
of the twenty five greatest? Okay? Maybe, Like if you
(24:47):
want to say this is the twenty fourth best team
in NBA history, so be it. But when we're the
question I would ask the audience is are you convinced
this year's Celtics are best then last year's Nuggets? No,
I'm not. I think that's an argument either direction. Right,
last year's Nuggets were not an all time team. So
(25:08):
this cell there are no yeah butts about it. They
won the championship. No one in the future will care
about the path, injuries any of that. They won the
damn title. But do I think they're a historic team. No,
I don't think we've had a historically great team since
the Kadis Steph Warriors. I don't think any champion since
(25:29):
then has been historically great.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You know what I had said about Luca, I said
the difference. The threshold between great bucket getter and champion
is different. Duncan, Michael and Magic sixteen titles. They were
foundational leaders. Like defensively, Magic not a great defender. But
there is a huge gap between Iverson and Lebron. Both
(25:54):
get buckets and Luca looked overweight most of the year,
looked tired in the finals. I mean, when Jalen brunch
and leaves and not only flourishes, becomes a superstar in
the league, he's maybe not the easiest guy to play with,
perpetually barking. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I mean, I don't know. Kyrie seemed to get along
with him pretty well. Kyrie couldn't get along with any
player for five years. Kyrie played his best basketball in
six years. I won't abide this, colin. I mean, you
talk about Luca being overweight. It hurt him so badly.
He led the league in scoring, he had his fifth
straight All NBA First team year, and he dragged the
MAVs to the finals. In all of NBA history, as
(26:36):
of a year ago, the only person ever to lead
the playoffs in points, rebounds, and assists was Jokic. Last year,
there is now a second person on that list. It's
Luka Doncic, and he led the playoffs in steels like
there are. Kyrie struggled in all three games in Boston.
(26:56):
The MAVs role players, none of them played up to
their playoff standard, now did Luca. For them to win
the title, they needed a A plus basketball from Luca.
They did not get that. That is totally legitimate. But
the idea that we are going to use this season,
(27:17):
at age twenty five years old, to do anything other
than build up the legend of Luka Doncic is insane
to me. He is He has gotten further in the
playoffs at this age than Michael then Lebron, than Jannis
van Jokic, van Steph. He has gotten as far in
(27:38):
the playoffs at this age as Durant He had the
guy's Kobe Duncan Magic, who got further at this age,
had a Hall of Famer in their prime alongside them.
The Lucas stuff is not This is not the time
to go after Luca now what he He lost his
(28:02):
opportunity Colin to be the best player in the world.
That's Jokich now until until further notice. Pardon me, but
if you have a top three and Lucas not in it.
Your top three is invalids. So if you don't have
him as one of the three best players in the world,
I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Looked a little puffy to me, a little fatigued, but
you know that.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, he needs to get in better shape. He does,
but you know what can tire people out carrying this
team to the NBA finals and he's never has the
greatest cardio. That he does need to improve. There's no
doubt about that. He needs to improve that. But I
do think where he wouldn't use the injury as an excuse.
(28:47):
I think the injury made him look slower than he
actually was. But yeah, to get to the next level,
he needs to get in slightly better shape. But my
point is the next level is clear cut best player alive.
If he stays at this level, he's going to be
one of the twenty five greatest players of all time.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So I was you know, it was interesting when Aaron
missed the mini camp and I said, yesterday, you know,
and I've said this before, never married, no kids, Not
sure he has a pet. As you get older and richer,
you can get a little self absorbed, like you know, wives, kids, sacrificing.
(29:25):
So I've seen this in the media. I've seen it
in sports. So if Aaron didn't want to go there
but to be a foxhole guy, the GM missed on
a quarterback in a left tackle, the coaches on the
hot seat. You have an offensive line that's brand new,
that won't play much in the preseason because old offensive
linemen don't and an old receiver coming in and two
(29:48):
new ones. And I said, you would just show up
for the team, Like if we were having a morale
building three day seminar, I think I'd show up for
the FS one. You know event you show up, Yeah,
you show up. If not for yourself, I'm that's not
a learning event for me. It's a team thing. It
(30:12):
does sort of rub me the wrong way. It's like, Aaron,
you played four snaps last year.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
It's it's you got Colin. I think you're being a
little too gentle. If the reports are true, the hey
give me in ten words or less, what happened with
Aaron Rodgers last week? The answer is skipped work to
do drugs. I don't really need a longer story than that. Now,
(30:40):
I'm like that that I know that and people are like, oh, Nick,
get with the times, guys. I am open to the healing, recuperative,
and therapeutic powers of a lot of substances. Some are
legal in this country, some are not. I am not
a prude in that regard. I will listen to you
on it. I got I got friends in New York
(31:01):
that walk around Central Park microdosing mushrooms and say, oh,
it's a changed my life. I'm open to it. But
if you had a buddy that had was a year
into a new job and the first year didn't go great,
and it's like, oh, they're having that company wide off
site that you've known about for months. Are you excited
(31:23):
for it? And it's like, oh, I actually told them
I can't make it and it's why I'm leaving the
country to go do drugs. You'd be like, buddy, I
think you won't have your priorities in order right, And
it's like, no, no, no, I need this for my
mental health and all of these things. But I'm going
to use an awkward Colin Coward analogy and that I'm
(31:46):
not that great at There are a lot of things
that folks would like to do that what might improve
their mental health the new thing everybody does. Everybody brings
a dog on an airplane, Yeah, because they're a nervous flyer.
You know what really relaxes me on an airplane, a delicious,
(32:07):
full flavored cigarette. I'm not allowed to do it, even
though it make me feel a lot better, because they're like, hey,
those are the rules. You know what, I bet Tyrone
Smith or somebody on the Jets might say, you know,
to get my mind right before the season, I would
really like seven days in Bali with no one bothering
(32:29):
me on a beach zin meditating. And you know what,
the Jets would say, no problem, buddy, there are four
weeks on the front end and six weeks on the
back end. When that's available, these three days, can you
make sure you're at work? And every other player was
able to say yes, and Aaron said, can't make it.
(32:49):
This trip is too important. And if that trip is
because this is when I had scheduled months ago my
retreat to go to Ayahuasca, I don't know why we
have to addy cake around it. It is a ridiculous
choice and it is an indefensible choice. And what is
going to happen, Colin is when Aaron comes out and
(33:10):
talks about this publicly. This is my prediction. Not only
is he not going to take accountability, he is going
to not so subtly slap Robert Sala's wrist.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Well, I don't know why that was, you know, discussed
the way it was. I did let them know. I'd
like to keep things in house and try to remind
everyone with the Jets that I am the top dog here,
up to and including missing an event that every single
one of my teammates aside from Son Reddick, who's not
even fully a teammate yet, was at because I had
(33:43):
a pre scheduled appointment to go do ayahuasca supposedly.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I want to end it on this because it's it's
a cultural discussion as much as a basketball discussion. My
initial take, and I'm standing by it, is that the
media doesn't know how to hand angel Reaes and Caitlin Clark,
but angel Ree and Caitlin Clark know how to handle it.
The media is parachuted in and awkwardly defended Clark, who's like,
(34:11):
I don't need defending its basketball. That was my initial take.
It's still my take. She's an excellent player. Both are
actually and that they're fine, and that there were one
hundred and thirty flagrants last year this year in the NBA.
There were sixty five last year in the WNBA, exactly half,
(34:31):
and they have exactly half the games. So flagrants happen
sometimes not by villains, many of the most like players
comit a flagrant. Things happen in sports. And I'm going
to double down on this is that Angel and Caitlin
for their age, are handling it almost like Dak Prescott
(34:52):
level where they go to the podium, they know exactly
what they're doing. It is us that doesn't know how
to handle it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Parachuting in that is exactly right. So that is exactly right.
So like listen, if I were advising Caitlin Clark, what
I have told her, Hey, there are some really nefarious
bad actors using you to be divisive and you might
want to get out ahead of this earlier than she did. Yes,
(35:19):
I would have advised her for that, But I think
she has handled all of this scrutiny in her early
twenties and fame and all of it about. I give
her like a a minus on the grade sheet. Angel Reese,
would I have advised her, Hey, if you're going to
kind of lean into the villain role at the press conference.
(35:40):
Don't say the refs. You know, it took control of
the game. There could be a little more accountability right
after the moment. Sure, but I give her an a
minus in how she's handled it. I give the Internet
and the sports media not only an F but you
have to repeat the class. It is shameful what we're
(36:03):
doing to these two young women and the way they
are being used as pawns in what is our never
ending national culture war that has race at the forefront
of it. There is there the fact that there are
(36:24):
folks that paid for verified Twitter accounts and are now
trying to suckle off Elon's money by putting up disingenuous
fanning the flame tweets. Whether it is that, you know,
Caitlyn Clark is this delicate flower that needs to be protected,
Angel Reese is some you know, some predatory villain, or
(36:47):
the flip side of it, the folks tweeting actually, when
you look at it, Caitlyn Clark not that good at
basketball all to get engagement because they're going to get
a check from Twitter at the end of the month. Shameful.
What is undeniably true. Is this these two young women
who are the two most famous players in the league.
(37:08):
Far from the two best, but right now they're the
two most famous. They have been the best and the
second best rookie so far this year, the only two
rookies averaging more than ten points a game, these two
Caitlin one of two players in the league averaging fifteen
to five and five Angel the only rookie averaging double
digit rebounds, and neither one of them is playing into
(37:32):
this hole. They hate each other. Piece. I do think
there's a real rivalry. I do think there is competitive fire.
And what they are doing Colin, if I may just quickly,
it is exactly what the media begs NBA guys to do.
Oh back in Michael Zeira, every people weren't so buddy, buddy.
(37:54):
Now everyone's friends, where's the competitive fire? We are seeing
it and we're comp about it and trying to turn
it into something that it's not. It's a great basketball
story and it's great for the league. At some point
it will go back to being a basketball story.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah. Yeah, I think the girls are great. I mean
it is and I will say I will say this
with a bunch of kids in my life is that
my kids are more mature than I was, certainly at
this time. You know, they've grown up with the you know, tech,
and they they've gotten access to more information and they're smarter.
And I think a lot of it is Caitlin Clark
(38:33):
has watched how to handle controversies in her life. She's
been a rock star for two or three years. She's
brilliant at the podium. And Angel Reese is kind of
leaning into the villain. And that's okay too, because that's
ok yeah. I have defended Draymond Green, not just because
he works at my company occasionally, rarely infrequently. But the
(38:55):
point is, Steve Kerr considers him, after Curry, the most
value commodity, the most viable player. There's what Angel's doing
is needed on virtually every basketball team in time.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
And if I made just quickly and then I know
we got to go. It is so patronizing to both
of them, acting as if Caitlyn needs protecting. She has
been a badass as a basketball player her whole life.
She doesn't need protecting, and acting as if Angel is
(39:31):
infallible in everything and that any criticism is unfair. She
is a star athlete. We that we you know what
we do with star athletes, pick at them, criticize them.
They are both and they will both be better for this,
for going through this. And I think eventually they are
(39:52):
going to be the actual earned faces of the league
rather than you know, great college players who are having
good rook seas. And it'll be excellent for it. But
their people are uncomfortable with the fact that Caitlin, the
hot shot, high scoring rookie that's a little undersize, is
(40:13):
getting beat up a bit. But that is the story
of sports. Yes, And it is not about her being
a white girl, and it is not about any of
this other stuff. It is she is this rookie that
is trying to light the league on fire. Yeah, and
bigger people are going to remind her it's not going
to be that easy. That is how sports work, guys. Yeah,
(40:35):
that's just how it works. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
By the way, Bryce Harper dealt with this, not for
a six game stretch, for three years. He walked into
I said this yesterday. The WNBA and baseball are similar
in that both have lamented the attention other sports get
NBA NFL more than baseball. WNBA is like, hey, we
got an audience. You talk NBA, and so they're very insular.
(41:00):
They can be a bit defensive. They're very proud baseball.
There's a way to play WNBA and we got this.
We're good at what we do, so I understand they're
a little defensive. When a newcomer comes in a lot
of US parachute to talk about their sports and only
talk Bryce Harper and Caitlyn Clark, like, I get a
(41:20):
little pushback, and I'm I'm totally it's the junior senator
like I get. When Tiger Woods came into golf. I
can remember being a local sportscaster. Do you guys ever
show anybody but Tiger? And I'm like, he makes golf interesting.
To your point, Bryce Harper, Caitlyn Clark, Tiger Woods, we
have seen this over and over, by the way, and
(41:43):
as far as the golf's very insular as well.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yes, and this I'll leave it at this. And even
you mentioned guys who were all time greats or Tiger
obviously Bryce a really, really great player, but the hey,
this rookie's getting a little too much publicity and we
want to take him down a notch. Go look at somebody,
go back and watch Lonzo balls first ten games and
(42:08):
how he was guarded honestly, and that wasn't race, that
wasn't money, that was essentially your daddy talks too much
and we don't like it. And so that is part
of sports, guys, and everyone needs to just take a
deep breath and recognize whether you like it or not.
The WNBA is going to follow a lot of the
(42:29):
beats of sports because it's a sport, that's all
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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