Colin Cowherd is joined by Ian O'Connor who has an upcoming book on Aaron Rodgers called "Out of the Darkness: The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers". The two discuss Aaron Rodgers past including why he doesn't talk to his family (5:42), his current relationship with Jets Head Coach Robert Saleh (8:45), only winning 1 Super Bowl with Packers and more amazing stories about Aaron Rodgers (21:06). Colin and Ian talk about what is next for Bill Belichick and which NFL team he could coach next season (29:31). Jalen Brunson took a massive discount for the Knicks after they added his Villanova teammate Mikal Bridges but does that make him the best New York athlete since Derek Jeter? (40:00)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Okay, my friend and somebody I admire greatly, Ian O'Connor
has a new book out on Aaron Rodgers. And before
we get to that, I want you to grab your
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(01:38):
opportunity a couple times a year because he's the hardest
working man in print journalism in America. You know, Connor,
my friend, He's got a book. I cannot wait to
read it. I've already had several shots at several chapters
and it's so in depth. It's called Out of the Darkness,
The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers. It comes out next month.
(02:00):
You know what, As she've written this book, it helped
me to laugh. But Aaron's like a story a week.
Guy at I keep thinking, do you have to keep
doing updates for the book?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I did, actually, Colin, and thank you very much for
the kind words I handed in the book in January.
And at that point, after asking to get him for
months and getting no response or being told he's thinking
about it, assuming at that point he's not going to
talk to me. And generally my biographies they've been unauthorized
with limited or no cooperation from the main subject. So
(02:37):
and then in February I got a message from the Jets, well,
he's actually now willing to talk to you. And it
wasn't going to be a ten hour sit down where
he told me his life story, but it was more
a fact checking hour or two. So I got two
hours with him and great, So he answered some questions,
he made the book better, and then after that you
had the RFK Junior story drop that, you had the
(03:00):
Sandy Hook conspiracy story drop, and then some podcasts he
did after my access to him, where more conspiracies were
talked about, and so listen Aaron Rodgers. He was a
very difficult subject to get your arms around. I thought
Belichick was tough, but compared to Rogers, I think Belichick
(03:22):
was a walk in the park because he was a
mystery that I felt like there was a sameness to
it at the same time, and he was right in
front of me, and I always felt that Rogers was
a moving target, and so it was a challenge and
hopefully I conquered it. I guess the readers will will
let me know if I did.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, I think, you know, complex people are interesting, and
I've said Aaron's really good content for me. There are
parts of Aaron that I've said on the show before.
My theory on Aaron. One of them is he just
pushes back on authority. His family was very religious. He
(04:03):
pushed back on it. He pushed back on the Packers,
He's pushed back on the media. He's pushed back on
the government vaccines. Whether that's a good quality or not,
it can be unsettling to people covering him. But my
belief is he's a non conformist. Many of the people
in our lives, musicians and artists we have celebrated, are
(04:28):
non conformists. Is there a bit of artistry to his personality.
That's probably the wrong word, but in my life we
have often celebrated there's a construct of football that we
want organizational, dependable, reliable personalities. And is it arguable or
(04:49):
debatable he's more of an artist in a structured sport.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
That's a great question. And I'm used to Eli Manning
that model that Eli Manning Derek Jeter in New York
and Aaron is the complete opposite of that. And so,
but there is an art to creating a news cycle
rolling out of bed, and that's what he can do.
He can do that better than anyone else. Maybe in
all sports. He can create a news cycle like that. So,
(05:17):
and we've seen that over the years. And I think
he loves being interesting. I think he loves being talked about.
He loves being analyzed. I don't think he loves the
way the news media has treated him in recent years.
I think his viewpoints politically generally are in contrast with
what he believes is the liberal media, largely liberal media,
(05:40):
and he's right for the most part. And you look
at him, though, what's interesting is his life, his public life.
Colin changed with COVID because before COVID and the I've
Been Immunized press conference in August of twenty one, he
was not considered a villain. He was a guy who
is very socially aware. Back to Colin Kaepernick and the
(06:01):
right to kneel in protest, he actually rebuked the fan
who screamed out or shouted out an anti Muslim slur
in the middle of the national anthem. I think it
was right after the Paris terrorist attacks and got a
letter of congratulation, congratulations or thanks or appreciation from President Obama.
Mina Kimes had that, and so he was sort of
(06:24):
known as as an athlete who was socially aware and
engaged in the issues and really on the right side
of the issues. And all of a sudden, COVID and
his stance against vaccines changed everything for him in terms
of his public image.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, and by the way, he wasn't the only person
to do that. I don't view him as a conservative.
I view him as more of a contrarian, a little
bit of a Joe Rogan. Rogan's never had Trump on
his podcast. He says he doesn't want him. And I
think Aaron has said, you know about like Trump, who's
the ultimate like alpha Republican, which is like he didn't
(06:58):
drain the swamp. It's just a different from swamp. So
I think sometimes we view Aaron through a political prism
and I just see him as a nonconformist. And I
think it probably that stuff. At some point. You can
trace it back to his childhood, and let's pivot to that.
You wrote the book. What do we know about his childhood?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
He was raised in a very conservative Christian evangelical home.
And I think I talked to a family member, and
you know, of course, for the better part of ten years,
he has not had any contact with his immediate family,
his two brothers, right, so I think he ultimately And
(07:39):
one family member told me that this person felt that
when he went to Berkeley, when he went to cal
and all of a sudden, he leaves this cocoon, this
small town in northern California, overwhelmingly white, Chico, California, and
is at cal Berkeley, this global institution, pot of ideas
(08:01):
and races and nationalities, and just got exposed to a
lot of different things and beliefs, and that that really
inspired a rebellion against those Christian beliefs that he was
raised with, and that that rebellion inspired other rebellions against
other things. And I had a good friend of his
(08:24):
when he was younger say to me, we all we
believed in magic. Aaron and I did, and together we
talked about that. And when you believe in magic, you
believe in the possibility of almost everything. And this person
felt that that opened the door to conspiracy theories too.
And listen, he he studied the JFK assassination as a
(08:47):
sophomore in high school. He was fascinated by it, came
to believe that was a conspiracy that involved a government agency,
and that inspired other conspiracy theories as well. So I
think right now he actually told me that religion is
really a small part of the estrangement that But I
(09:09):
do think that if you go back to his childhood,
certainly he now does not consider him self religious. He
considers himself spiritual. But I think you see the seeds
of rebellion planet in his own rebellion against those beliefs
that he now does not hold.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah. There, I'm gonna throw this out and you can
latch onto this, and if there's any story in the
book that corroborates or refutes this, go ahead. But I've
said one of the statistics with Aaron that doesn't make
a lot of sense on the surface is his lack
of come from behind wins. In the NFL twenty one
(09:49):
playoff games he has won that would be low for
a bad quarterback. He's an all time great and I've
often used, you know, maybe it's tried a little glib.
He's more of a Baylor than a baller. Is that
when he plays poorly early, he quits that he's not
a fox hole guy, He's just brilliantly gifted. Jeter was
(10:13):
more of a leader, a Rod was more talented. Brady's
more of a leader, Aaron's just more talent. And that
I look at him, that there's a lack of fundamental,
lack of trust in a process, and when he struggles
early in games, his body language shifts. When he trails
late in games, there's a lack of trust for the
(10:33):
play calling. And that's part of his personality. It's the
only thing I can figure out and decipher why a
gifted quarterback in twenty one playoff games has only one
come from behind win. Does any of this line up
with some of his unique personality quirks or his fundamental
base personality.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Well, when he was younger, he was a fearless postseason player.
And I think what he won four of his first
five postseason games, and the throw he made to beat
Pittsburgh in the Super Bowl, the third down throw over
the middle to Jennings, is one of the great throws
in Super Bowl history. On third down. If that passes incomplete,
(11:13):
I think the Steelers win that Super Bowl. And so
he makes that play and other plays in that game
and in that postseason run. If you go back Colin
as I did, of course, and looked at particularly the
game against Atlanta and the playoffs that year that he
won it, you cannot play the position at a higher
level than that. Right, He had some Alan Iverson type
(11:34):
ankle breaking moves to escape guys in the pocket that
were just unbelievable, and the throws he made and just
the way he played in that game was it was art.
It was just hard to believe somebody could play at
that level. And after watching that game and seeing him
win the Super Bowl, it is really hard still after
studying his career in his life, to come to grips
with the fact that the Packers could not figure out
(11:55):
a way to win a second rate with this guy.
It's just unbelievable. One thing I'll point out, so this
doesn't really relate to his upbringing or character traits, but
he listen, if they recover an onside kick, He's in
the second Super Bowl. They don't recover an onside kick,
and didn't do six other things in the final minutes
of that game. And by the way, and by the way,
(12:17):
that comeback drive to tie and send it into overtime
against Seattle is totally forgotten. Was an amazing drive by
Aaron Rodgers to get that game into overtime after the
team and really the coaching staff around him fell apart.
So that doesn't count because they lost, but just in
that building, the loudest building in the NFL, after the
(12:40):
rest of the team really folded around him to drive
that team down the field to force overtime and lose
it basically on a coin toss. So that's a tough one.
Because they get to the Super Bowl that year. They
had beaten New England in the regular season, so they
would have a lot of confidence against Brady in the
Super Bowl that year. But he did not have Belichick. Okay,
(13:04):
Mike McCarthy was not a bad coach, but he's not
even close to Belichick. Tom Brady also had the best
offensive coordinator of his generation, and Brady had this great
system that Belichick created, and Aaron Rodgers had a slightly
better than average head coach and didn't have that system
(13:25):
or offensive coordinator a lot of times, didn't have a
great defense. And so I think that's that. Hey, it's there,
and it's part of his legacy. The lack of comeback
victory certainly is right there on his record, but he
very easily, in a different situation would have the multiple
rings that he doesn't have right now that everybody holds
(13:47):
against him, and he has a part in that too.
There were postseason victories that he left on the field
that he could have made a play to overcome somebody else,
and he didn't do that, and that is part of
his record as well.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, I think he's been fairly portrayed as a quarterback
as Marino level gifted, we're wanting more postseason success, a
little prickly, personally indifferent, but an all time great, and
I think that's incredibly fair. I always preferred him over
far Of. I thought he could play instructure and out
(14:23):
of it, whereas I thought Brett was arder to coach
and a little bit more of an old style gunslinger,
where Aaron could do a little bit of that but
also played in structure very very well. I don't think
he's been unfairly criticized. I do think, like a Joe Rogan,
when you're a news maker, the media are filled full
(14:45):
of human beings, they tend to take sides. There does
feel like a little bit of a negative pivot off Aaron.
Do you think he will often say it doesn't affect him.
Do you think it's had a corrosive effect on his
personality in some of his acts.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I think so. I think that's a fair way to
look at it, Colin and Listen, he's brought a lot
of this on himself, and I think he's for a
guy as smart as he is, a guy who had
thirteen ten on his SATs and is very thoughtful and
engaging and can talk about so many different things. He's
intellectually curious, and I've always thought he's one of the best,
(15:25):
if not the best interviews in the league. Yeah, he's
always he's a great talker, but he has said some
things that he's had to take back, and I think like,
for instance, the Jimmy Kimmel thing on McAfee. Right, So,
he did not go on the program that day planning
to talk about Epstein and Jimmy Kimmel and the Epstein list,
(15:49):
but A J Hawk, one of his good friends, blurted
it out a question. And obviously that show is very
free flowing and McFee does a great job with it.
But it's the way he responded to aj Hawk off
the cuff on the fly that got him in trouble,
and I think he was very careless with his words.
I actually believe he was not trying to say that
(16:11):
he thought Kimmel was on the list. I think he's
always been waiting for an opportunity to get back at
Kimmell form making fun of him previously on his show
regarding Aaron's belief or he suggested that all of a sudden,
we're getting all this information out of the government about
UFOs to divert attention away from the Epstein list, and
(16:34):
kim Ol mocked him for that, so he was trying
to get back at him. But the way he said it,
if you didn't know the context in the background, you
would believe that Aaron Rodgers was suggesting that Jimmy Kimmel
was going to be on that list, and of course
he wasn't, so he put himself in that position. He
got himself in trouble, and it was just once you
(16:54):
try to explain it days later, as he tried to do,
you've lost. You know that, once you have to expel
something like that, you've already lost. And so there are
cases like that in his career. That are dumbfounding, because
he is a very intelligent guy, and so I'd say
that he has brought a fair amount of that on himself.
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Speaker 2 (19:05):
The book is called Out of the Darkness. The Mystery
of Aaron Rodgers comes out next month. What part of
the book was the most interesting for you. There's there's
his grandfather, there's his parents, there's his childhood, there's Berkeley,
there's Green Bay, there's sitting behind FARV, there's taking over
for FARV. There's the prime years, there's the departure, the
(19:28):
exit from Green Bay. Was there a part of the
book that you you really there were surprises, There were
left turns that you really found you were as you
were compiling the information writing it. It was easy to write.
You really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
At the chapter one community college is one year and
at JUCO.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Oh, it's great, it's great.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I love that his coach, Craig Rigsby, is the Charles
Barkley of JUCO coaches. He was a great chapter, great character,
Thank you. And so. But I would say the story
that I really actually enjoyed researching and reporting on the
most was about his grandfather, because you know, I had
(20:10):
heard him passing it. Occasionally. You'd see it briefly mentioned
in a story that his grandfather served in World War Two,
and that was pretty much the extent of it. You
might see an occasional reference to the fact that he
was a POW. And so in Finding there's a guy
in Minneapolis named Dan Matthews who's a military records expert.
And this guy was gold and he found a lot
(20:31):
of this for me. I found some of it as well,
but documenting every mission that Edward Rogers flew as a
B twenty Wow combat pilot, and including one on Saint
Patrick's Day in nineteen forty four where his plane was
hit multiple times. His engine on the left side, one
of the four engines is on fire. He's flying over
(20:54):
in Nazi Germany, and the rest of his squadron they
weren't abandoning him, but it was protocols part of their mission.
They had to peel off and go to the next
stage of the mission. And he was all alone, on
fire over Germany in a B twenty four that he
was flying with ten men aboard, and he had to
make decisions, and he said, I felt like the loneliest
(21:14):
man in the world flying off Nazi Germany. And so
the story is he somehow flew that plane back to
the American base in Italy. They got down safely, so
effectively he saved eleven lives, including his own. And I
wanted to open the book with that chapter because there's
so much negativity about his family that I wanted to
(21:37):
actually write a positive story about his family. And his
grandfather was an amazing combat pilot who flew forty four missions,
forty three of them successful against Hitler's war machine shot
down on the forty fourth, was beaten and mistreated as
a pow, told war crimes investigators of his mistreatment, and
(21:57):
we have all of that in the book, and I
think that actually was my favorite chapter.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, it's by the way, it is such an impressive
feat of reporting. I was a bit in awe of
you reading that chapter. I sometimes, you know, Walter Isaacson
will do this, you will do this.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I'm not. Don't mention me in the same sense with it,
but thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I've sometimes you guys that write these books, you just
go a mile deep, and I'm jealous of not only
the time you have to do it, but your ability
to find it, bring it to light and tell it artfully.
I just think it's so fascinating now. I always thought
there was such a unique, interesting contrast between this great
(22:48):
looking hipster that went to Berkeley that ends up in
Green Bay, Wisconsin, the smallest talking about the loneliest places
in the NFL. Do you think Aaron on a social level,
what was Green Bay like for him? That's always been fascinating.
I know, he goes to Malibu in the off season,
(23:09):
but for about twenty weeks, you live in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
Didn't you think he liked it appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
He did. And it's funny because after he got drafted,
of course, he's very disappointed that he plunged in the
first round. He was supposed to a lot of people
thought he should have gone number one to his childhood
team San Francisco. That was his dream. The Niners pick
Alex Smith instead, so he falls to twenty four to
Green Bay and Thomas Weatherspoon, former NCAA champion sprinter, was
(23:39):
a trainer for Aaron Rodgers. A guy made him faster,
and he said to him, this is great. This is
like Chico with snow and they Green Bay quarterbacks. In
Green Bay, they're gonna build a statue for you and
they're gonna love you to death, and there's no better
place to be. So this plunge in the first round
(24:02):
is really a blessing in disguise, and I think Aaron
saw that. And now I don't think the Green Bay
community embraced him like it embraced Brett Farr, because they
saw Farv is one of us, even though he was
from the South, yes, right, hunter fisherman, hanging out with
the boys in the bar, high fiving fans over a
(24:23):
beer by everyone around in the bar until of course
he went into until he got sober, and and then
that changed a little bit. But yeah, they saw he
is one of us, and I don't think they ever
saw Rogers as one of us. But I think it
was a really good fit for him, coming from a
small market, being overlooked, coming a juco guy, and then
(24:47):
he ends up in Green Bay and it really was
a great marriage, even though it wasn't the same relationship
with the fans that Farv had. And it just can't
believe that they only won oneampionship with him when you
look at the talent, and some of it is his fault,
but it's a shame. And really, at the end for
(25:08):
John Elway, he got a second ring, got his first
ring in a second ring at the end of his career,
and Peyton Manning got that second ring right at the
end of his career. And I think that it would
be a good thing really to see Aaron Rodgers get
that second ring before he retires, because he's too good
to retire with one ring. Thankfully, he's got one and
not zero, because we'd be really destroying him for that.
(25:31):
But he really should retire with multiple rings. And hey, listen,
the Jet fan base is the most fatalistic fan base
I've ever encountered, and at some point it's going to happen.
Entering the two thousand and four season, the Red Sox
fan base thought it would never happen, and it did.
Entering twenty sixteen, the Cubs fan base thought it would
never happen, and it did. The New York Ranger fan
(25:53):
base in ninety four thought it would never happen, and
it did. So at some point it will happen for
the Jets. Hopefully it'll be this year.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
So when you gave me the early to middle chapters
of the book, and it's the kind of stuff folks,
you just pick a weekend when it's raining in the
fall and sit and read. It's just easy to devour.
I did not get the final chapters. Is there much
in it about the Jets? It's a very brief part
of his career, and if anything is there, the relationship
(26:28):
with Sola, two good looking young guys, appear to be
very strong early. I wonder if it's as strong today,
I don't.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Think it is. He didn't say that, so I want
to make that clear. I did talk to him about
the Jets, the experience. I do have a lot on
the Jets in the book. Of course, that's at the
end of the book. And I think that when they
met that five hour meeting, when the Jets sent that
delegation out to Malibu to try to convince him to
(26:59):
force the trade to New York, he spent most of
his time with Salah in that meeting. Everybody else is
sort of hanging out on the backyard deck overlooking the
Pacific Ocean. But so I think he still has a
good He always had a good relationship with Sala I
still think it's strong. But they all know they're getting
fired if they don't make the playoffs this year. And
(27:21):
I think Aaron certainly has to question this guy's ability
as a head coach. I think he's a great guy,
and I think he is a guy if I were
an owner of an NFL team, I would want to
employ him. But as a defensive coordinator, he has not
proven that he can be a good head coach. He
hasn't done it. So Aaron knows that. So I think
(27:41):
he still likes him, still has maybe some belief in him,
not as much as when he signed on, But yeah,
this is this book has a lot of Jet material
in it, particularly how to play Unfolded where he got hurt.
It shouldn't have happened. I explain why he talks in
Deep Tale about that play. Wow ways that listen. Garrett
(28:04):
Wilson was open and so obviously the cut block technique.
I think the Athletic had a story about how Aaron
Is never liked cut blocking, and I talked to him
about that. And Dwayne Brown missed the cup block on
Leonard Floyd. That creates an opportunity. And it really was
an amazing night being in the building. I've never experienced
(28:27):
a more charged regular season crowd, not just for the Jets,
in my almost forty years of covering sports in New York,
any team. I mean that night, that crowd was unbelievable.
And to see it taken away four snaps in like that,
it was hard. It was hard to take. I was
getting text messages from friends, I feel terrible, your book
(28:47):
is dead and I didn't care about my book. I
felt heartsick for the fans and for him to be there.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
In that point. Yeah, yeah, I remember the next day
after that, I went on the air and people knew
I was critical of Aaron, and I had several reach
out to me. And because I went on the air
and I said, I feel so bad for Aaron Rodgers,
I felt sick to my stomach. A I'd never root
against the player, root for a player getting hurt. But
I think Aaron has been a content machine for what
(29:16):
I do, and I do appreciate that. And you know,
he made some points on the vaccines that he may
be right. You know, I tended to get in line
with the government. Maybe I was wrong and gullible. I
don't know, but the book is coming out, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I could be wrong. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I was open minded and I told him I have
zero agenda with this book. I have no agenda whatsoever.
I didn't have any real negative thoughts when you arrived
in New York about you. And it's funny because I
had more trouble convincing people that that. They assumed I
was a liberal media guy with an agenda, and I
think after over time they realized I wasn't and I
(29:54):
was just trying to document a significant American life. But
I had more trouble convincing people to talk did with
my Belichick book, and that's that was a surprising part
of it. How many people were afraid to talk about
Aaron Rodgers. And I think I won that battle over time,
but it was a battle to get there and so
but but yeah, it was Listen. I have a good
(30:17):
feeling about this Jets team, and I know you've been
a critic. I think you've been fair on Rodgers. Your
criticism to me is fair game. I would like to
look at the all time list, and I think you
have him a little lower than I have him. I
have him fifth. And the way I try to do
it is very subjective, of course, but try to make
it more objective. And my formula is to take regular
(30:41):
season MVPs plus Super Bowl MVPs. So it's a team sport.
But if you are the best player in the league,
and then how many times are you the best player
in the biggest game in American sports, put the two
together and come up with a number. And that's that's
why I have Aaron Rodgers in my top five. I
had him fifth, but I think obviously Mark Schleare said
(31:02):
he belongs at the kids table when it comes to
it at a gathering of all time quarterbacks, I think
he's the last seed at the main table. But I
think he belongs at the main table. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I've always put him in the Merino class, where I
think he and Marino throw the prettiest ball. I want more.
I'm left hungry after their football careers, but it's indisputable
that they're iconic, They're brilliant. I'm more critical, although I
don't talk of him with Marino because I think Marino
(31:33):
had the first or second bet coach for his entire
career and Aaron didn't. Also, Dan Marino had an owner
and that helps in free agency. Aaron Rodgers didn't. So
I think at some point I will go down. I
will probably have him closer to eight or nine Marino.
In that same thing. Lway won the big games, Marino
didn't win as many, but I think we both believe
(31:56):
he's an all time talent. I've always had him ahead
of Farv, but I do think I do think he
needs to. Far have had a very, a really remarkable year,
thirty three touchdown, seven picks that first year in Minnesota.
Then he got injured that was. I mean that, in
my opinion, that was one of the great years by
an aging quarterback ever, maybe the greatest year by an
(32:18):
aging quarterback. If Aaron sputters here this year after last
year and kind of a weak year in Green Bay
at the end, I don't think it's not you know,
we forgot Jordan was so good. We forget about Washington.
I mean, it's like footage has disappeared. I do think
Aaron needs to be we have to see some magic.
(32:39):
It's a nice way. It's icing on a very good cake.
And I you know, I kind of project their an
eight nine win team. I don't see twelve thirteen. But
I don't blame Aaron. I think I think the coaching
and the coordinating leaves a little to be desired. I
want to move to Bill Belichick because you've also done
the Belichick book, and Aaron and Belichick have one thing
(33:03):
in common.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I think.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Both at the end of their careers, made a decision
in the last seven or eight years, maybe five or
six years Belichick shared with urban Meyer. There's just certain
guys I want to coach, and I'm not going to
coach guys I don't want to coach well that's the
opposite of sacrifice for the team that Bill wanted to
be more comfortable. He relied on assistancy, knew even if
(33:29):
they failed elsewhere, Aaron, there was a certain language that
Bill was comfortable with, and he kept hiring his language
back and was comfortable with only certain players. Winning isn't comfortable.
It's uncomfortable Aaron has gotten. I think a disservice at
offensive coordinator with Nat Hackett, Alan Lazard, Randall Cobb. It
(33:53):
is and I want to instead of addressing that with Aaron,
I want to address it with Bill. Do you think
Belichick reporting recently by ESPN that Tom Pelasarrow I think
said recently rich Eisens show he is interested in getting
back into coaching next year. Do you think the market
Is it a dynamic market or is it a two
(34:14):
to three team market because age scares people. Brady had
no market when he left New England. It was like
the Chargers and the Box. Kirk Cousins didn't have much
of a market for a very good career. Do you
think Belichick last year no market will have much of
a market.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I actually think you're onto something there about it being
a two or three team market. But I think the
interest from those two or three teams could be intense.
So I remember Brady said of the team he didn't name,
you're keeping that guy instead of signing. Then there was speculation, well,
who was that guy and what was that team? But
(34:53):
I felt that way about Belichick in this last cycle.
You're hiring that guy or keeping that guy, and not
high Bill Belichick. But I do think just look at
the NFC East. Could you imagine Jerry Jones hiring Belichick. Yeah. Now,
Belichick working with Jones, I know they have a good relationship,
but Parcells told me that it was a problem when
(35:15):
he was there. He liked Jerry Jones, didn't have a
major problem in them overall. But after games, Jerry Jones
holds a press conference right outside the locker room. I've
been in five, six or seven of them, and the
coaches down the hall in the interview room, and those
messages could conflict, and Parcells said that was tough to
deal with. Imagine Belichick down the hall saying nothing and
(35:36):
Jerry's saying everything outside the locker room. Now, maybe Bill
can convince him not to do that anymore, but Jerry's
been doing that for a long time, and he puts
on a show. He'll talk about anything after a game.
So that'll be interesting to watch that marriage if it happens.
But the Giants, and if the Giants are I don't know,
(35:56):
six and eleven again this year, Dable's in trouble and
the Marath family loves the Parcels, Belichick, Tree, and Bill
will be sitting there. And at the end of the day,
I've always felt this that deep in a place he
won't admits exists, Bill's a giant. That's the one building
he walked into. He saw the NFL films where he
(36:19):
got emotional right, so to end his career if he could.
The only reason he didn't get the job after Parcels
stepped down. Now Bill had already left for Cleveland. He
left because he knew that George Young the GM hated
him and was never going to hire him as head coach.
So George Young now in the Hall of Fame and
rightfully so, one of the best football men I've ever met,
(36:40):
But he hated Belichick. So to go back and have
that be his final job and to try to win
a championship in New York, Yeah, that would be something.
And I think that's a possibility, and I don't think
the Giants are gonna be very good this year, so
the Eagles, of course also possibly in place. So if
you're an He's head coach, beware because I think I
(37:03):
don't think Bill wants to go west. I think he
wants to stay near home, and I think the Northeast
is that's who he is, and so I suspect there
will be a lot of interest from two or three
teams and he'll get a job. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
The other one I would throw out is Buffalo. Although
Sean mcdermot's done a good job, there is a sense
as the asc AFC just keeps getting better that Buffalo
is kind of leaving, leaving some things on the on
the floor. I don't think here's why I'll throw that
one out. I think Bill holds grudges and to be
(37:41):
able to crush Robert Kraft twice a year and go
back to Foxborough, I think it's something Ian. It's a little,
but it feels like something.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It'll give you a better one than that the Jets
if they missed the playoffs, everybody gets fired, right, But
what if Aaron Rodgers makes fourteen starts, gets hurt in
the middle of the season, and Tyrod Taylor takes the
other three starts, plays a fairly high level of football,
better than his final year in Green Bay, not as
good as the MVP years, and Woody Johnson, who loves
(38:11):
star quarterbacks and loves Aaron, decides, I'm firing everybody, but
I want Aaron to come back. And I'll throw the
kitchen sink at Belichick and say, you walked out on
us on this before I became owner, after twenty four
hours as head coach, and you dominated us for the
better part of two decades. Why not finish your career
here with a quarterback who's a bat as close to
(38:33):
an aging Tom Brady as you can find, and a
guy you can work with. I mean, I think that's
a long shot, but I wouldn't completely rule that out.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
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paid advertisement. When you attack these books, you make really
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The Belichick book, the Derek Jeter book, the Aaron Rodgers book.
While you're a columnist, while you're doing other work, a
(40:12):
great dad, husband, you're you're a busy guy. Right when
you finished the Aaron book, what's the feeling of two
to three years of a mile deep? What's the feeling?
Are you just how do you.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Think I sort of feel that these books take a
few years off the end of your life. I hope that,
but it does feel that way. And but then when
you have like that first copy in your hands, Yeah,
that is a pretty glorious feeling, I have to admit.
And it is the hardest thing I've ever attempted to
do in this business, and one of the maybe the
(40:53):
second hardest, was filling in for you. Seriously. I mean this.
I'm not just saying this because I'm on with you,
but I've told my wife this, and she's a fan
of yours and other people. So I don't know, maybe
ten times eleven times I did your show when you
were at ESPN when you're on vacation, and to sit
there on national radio and national TV and basically do
(41:16):
a three hour show by yourself where you're debating yourself
and trying to create conversation with yourself as you did
so expertly, that might be the second hardest thing for
a time, because I don't have your personality or your
skill for it. And so that was a fight, and
it was it was just to try to reach a
respectable level. And I felt like I owed that to
(41:37):
you because they were putting me in your chair, and
I mean that from the bottom of my heart. That
is that might be the second hardest thing I've ever
attempted in this business. And that's a credit to you,
because you're the best at it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Well. I always appreciate that. I want to talk about
I'm not a big believer. I think choices is another
word for fate. I'm pretty agnostic, though most of my
friends are very religious. I fear more toward the spirituality.
I think I don't believe in too many coincidences. Right now,
(42:14):
New York as the as the Yankee sort of spiral.
New York has had a bad mostly decade in sports,
and I was thinking about this the other day. I
thought Jalen Brunson taking less one hundred and fifteen million
(42:34):
dollars less for the next was one of the savvyest moves.
And I know he'll get pushed back because the term
get the bag now is just synonymous with like NBA stars.
Is Brunson the most loved athlete in the last fifteen
(42:55):
years in New York since Ewing or since Jeter?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
I think Eli's in there. I think Eli winning the
two Super Bowls, but he's close and Brunton, if he
just gets one, it's going to explode. But what's amazing
is and he'll he'll make up that money maybe in
the next contract. And I think he's eligible in twenty
twenty eight when he can get over three hundred millions.
So but he's smart. We go how smart this guy is.
(43:20):
He looks around and says, well, nobody in New York's
won a championship in forever, and the Knicks happened once.
It's nineteen seventy three. So somebody's going to be the
guy who does it. And the guy who does it,
if it's me, that's going to be worth a lot
more than one hundred and thirteen million dollars in my lifetime.
He's going to be lionized forever. And he was smart
(43:42):
enough to figure it out. And so if you look
at New York Sports right now, and we've talked about this,
I think on other shows where New York sort of
lost its advantage over other markets because you can be
a global superstar in Oklahoma City wherever. The world is
so small now, so New York's lost that edge. But
(44:02):
the one edge New York has is if you look
at the Mets have one since eighty six. The Jets
haven't won since January sixty nine. The Knicks have won
since nineteen seventy three, The Mets haven one since eighty six,
the Yankees to them since two thousand and nine. That's
a drought. So if you come to New York and
end the drought, you are lionized forever. And it's the
(44:27):
payoff there is worth far more than one hundred and
thirteen million dollars, particularly when Brunton will get that back
in the next contract. He was smart enough to figure out,
now's the time I have to help the Knicks forminate
a championship roster because I'm going to lead that roster
and if we win it all that is going to
be something that you can't buy. And doing that in
(44:48):
New York after more than fifty years for the Knicks,
what is that going to mean to him? Mark Messier
won five Cups in Edmonton. He ended a fifty four
year drought in New York and that's the only cup
anyone ever talks about. Is winning number six is the
one he one and the drought for the Rangers, and
he'll tell you that that they talk more about that
than the other five combined, and he can't buy a
(45:10):
meal in New York, of course, for the rest of
his life. So yeah, Brunson is smart enough, he's figured
it out. I'm making killer money, multi generational money anyway,
so let me try to do what I can to
be the guy who ends the drought. So then my
legacy goes to a stratosphere I can't even imagine. So
I think he's made the right play.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Here for the audience listening that doesn't know the hierarchy
of the Knicks. They may know James Dolan, who I
think was side pracked with the Sphere for two years,
which allowed the front office to control basketball as Dolan
stepped away. He has a musical background and it was
actually an advantage. Now the Sphere's done, the Sphear's done,
(45:54):
he's back to talking about how much he loves Julius Randall,
which is problematic because I don't think he fits with
what they Once Hartenstein left, they lost size at true center.
Randall small. I don't think he fits this small lineup,
which often goes four guards. It'll be now three guards.
McHale bridges. So I don't think Randall fits. I think
he's productive. I don't think he's a good fit. And
here comes James Dolan, done with his Vegas project, to
(46:16):
talk basketball and how much he loves Julius Randall. But
over the last two years, the Knicks have arguably gone
from the most disfunctional organization ownership group to a highly
functional maybe not Miami or Golden State, but a highly
functional operation. Who do we give credit to? In the
suite upstairs?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Leon Rose is very simple and listen. He hasn't talked
to the media in I don't know more than two years.
It's New York City. I don't know how Adam Silver
and New Yorker lets him get away with that. I
wrote a column that was very critical of him a
couple of years ago. The Knicks went crazy for this column.
And because he hasn't talked to the beat writers and
(46:58):
the media at large in New York City, it has
to be more than two years now, not one word.
So now Knicks fans don't care because the guy knows
what he's doing. And I'll admit that, I'm not afraid
to say he's done a great job. Early on, he struggled.
He made some moves that Tibbs didn't like he got
a couple guys in that like Cam Reddish that Tibbs
didn't want and fourty A and Kemba Walker, guys that
(47:21):
Tibbs didn't want. And but man, it's one home run
now after another, and I have to give a man
credit for doing it, and so I will. And now
his roster is one that Could they go to the
NBA finals next year after getting Bridges, Yeah, I think
they can because it's so hard to repeat now in
the NBA. And look look at Denver this year. They
(47:43):
couldn't get through even to the finals. And after they
won last year, we thought they might win three of
the next four. And I guess they still might. Boston,
it's going to be tough to do it again. They're
coming back with the same team. Are they better than
the next air roster? Yes, but it's just so hard
to get back that I think there's an opportunity there
for the next to get through and challenge somebody in
(48:04):
the West. I think Bridges was the right move. You're
right about Randall, but you know what, he's a twenty
four and ten guy and I think he has value
around the league. If they don't move him, what they
could use is a center who could shoot from the outside,
just to open up lanes for Brunson and hart and
(48:24):
Dee Vincenzo and Bridges, and just to space the defense
out some they don't they didn't have last year with
Hartenstein and Mitchell Robinson a center who could do that.
So if they can move Randall into packs now they
had to send so many assets out to get Bridges.
But if for a I don't know, does Minnesota decide
(48:46):
that Karl Anthony Towns and Edwards and Gobertt's that doesn't
quite fit. We need to add a different piece to
win it all. Maybe I know that Cat. I know
that Timms is willing to coach Cat again even though
they they had problems in Minnesota. I know that for
a fact. And I also know as a New Jersey kid,
he does have Towns does have some interest in playing
(49:09):
for the Knicks at some point. So, but it would
be something like that maybe I could see happening. But
I do think Randall has value around the league.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yeah, and when he was in Los Angeles, you know,
he's one of those players where the league, the culture
and the style of the league changed and Dwight Howard
fell off a Cliff Randal didn't. But he's not aligned
with current basketball. He's not going to shoot from the perimeter.
He's kind of an old school bully ball, physical player,
(49:38):
relentlessly hard player, intense. It doesn't look it's not aesthetically pretty,
it's not the current game. But he's productive and there
is you know, sometimes he has struggled in the playoffs,
but there is value. I in dropping twenty four and
eight a night in the regular season, which is such
a treadmill. Which is I mean, it's a long hike
(49:59):
and a dark, windy road, and I think he provides
for a lot of teams stability and production. But I
got to tell you, as somebody who started watching the
NBA in the early seventies, I find the Knicks have
the and this is hard for a big market team.
I find them incredibly likable. The Villanova thing is God,
(50:23):
they're likable. I can't think of the last I mean,
I didn't necessarily love the Giants. The Yankees were fun,
but again, out spending everybody, this Knicks team feels like
one of the more huggable in New York history.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
No question, Colin and you look at Brunson, is the
biggest reason why because he's the guy again, as when
he arrived, I wasn't sure and many people weren't sure
if he was good enough to be the second best
player in the championship team. I think he's proven he
could be the best player on the YESEA yeah, right,
with the right pieces around him. But now taking less
money sort of a lah Tom Brady and trying to
(50:58):
help the roster and trying the championship and just saying
all the right things. I mean, he would fit in
with the Red Holtzman Nicks in nineteen seventy and seventy three,
and he fits in today perfectly. And he was a
coach's son, a point guard son, and you could just
see he's got so much savvy on the floor. His
(51:19):
footwork is unbelievable. I think he's got the best footwork
for a guard I've ever seen, particularly in the paint.
And he's not athletic. You look at his body, he
doesn't look like an NBA player, so it doesn't look
like an NBA superstar, and yet he is. And it's
like every night. I remember his first year in New York.
Tim Bontems and ESPN used to make fun of me
because I was working at the New York Post as
a columnist, and every time I went to a Knicks game,
(51:41):
I wrote a column about Jalen Brunson. And are you
ever going to write about somebody else? And I said, no, Tim,
because I've been around a lot longer than you, and
I see what's happening here. In year one, you could
see it. It was a perfect marriage between market and athlete,
and it was only going to get better. And that's
exactly what's happened.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah. Ian O'Connor upcoming book, Out of the Darkness, The
Mystery of Aaron Rodgers, comes out next month. How long
officially did it take to write that book beginning.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
To end the actual writing process? Probably five months. Of course,
there's a lot of reporting that goes into it, and
I like for these books, particularly unauthorized books, where the
subject is giving you very little, if anything at all,
You're interviewing hundreds of people. So listen, it wasn't as
(52:32):
long as Belichick. Aaron Rodgers hasn't been on the planet
as long as Belichick. Belichick was the I think I
want to say that was a full three years. This
was more like a year and a half and I
would say the average for me is probably two years.
I did want this book to come out when Aaron
was still playing, and so a lot of people thought
(52:55):
I was dead in the water when he got hurt
last year. Well, the book's coming out this year. I
don't want to say the injury it was an awful
thing to witness, but in some ways I think it
might have helped the book. Most people assumed it killed
it because last year is now this year, and they
have to get in the playoffs. He has to have
a big year or this whole thing is getting blown up.
(53:17):
So I actually think that might add some intrigue to
the story that I've told here as the season unfolds.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Also, they got a little bit of a break from
the schedule maker, a lot of night games, a lot
of standalone games. They opened with Stan Francisco, So, as
you know with book sales, the more he's in the news,
the more controversy, the more people are fascinated. They're going
to be on TV all of September and early October,
and if they win, which I suppose they'll do outside
(53:45):
of the Niners opener, that'll help. I mean, the best
thing for your book is a six game Aaron Rodgers
winning streak.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Yeah, right, And the worst thing Colin is, of course,
and God forbid he gets hurt on opening night again.
And I'm like, when I saw that schedule, I said
to myself to the NFL, are you trying to get
him hurt on opening night again against San Francisco on
the road?
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Did it happen with a new offensive line?
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Exactly so? And listen, it's interesting because they didn't draft
him number one in two thousand and five, and they
should have. And that's that was his childhood team. He
loved Joe Montana and Steve Young, and he wanted to
be the quarterback of the San Francisco forty nine ers.
He can't beat them in the playoffs, right, He's lost
to Kaepernick and Garoppolo in the playoffs, and he struggled
(54:28):
against them in the postseason. He's had some success against
San Francisco in the regular season. So, but that is
a tough opening night for him, brutal a year after
he got hurt on opening night after four snaps or so.
I didn't love that first game. But if you look
at their schedule, could you see an avenue for them
(54:48):
to go eleven and six, ten and seven, I would
say that, yes, that's possible. I have a good feeling
about it. Usually when I write books about people, they
have very successful seasons when the book is out. So
for the sake of Jets fans who are very fatalistic
as I mentioned, and have been waiting, right, I always
say that the Jets have not appeared in a Super
(55:08):
Bowl since Neil Armstrong stepped on the move, so it's time.
It's time for magic to happen. I think it would
be a great story. I'm selfish in terms of wanting
that for my book, but that aside, I do want
to see that. I've never covered a Jets Super Bowl.
I'd love to be able to do that, and I'd
love to see Jets fans get that payoff.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Ian O'Connor, my friend, it's always great to see you.
Know how much I respect you and enjoy this stuff.
And you don't have much of a stummer left, but
what you do before you start digging into camps a
couple of the Giants and the Jets. I wish it well, and.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Really I met what I said before, and you know
what I feel about you and your work, So thank
you very much.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Calm. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast,
take a moment, rate and review
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Okay, my friend and somebody I admire greatly, Ian O'Connor
has a new book out on Aaron Rodgers. And before
we get to that, I want you to grab your
smartphone and I want you to download the game Time App.
It will take you ninety seconds. It's so valuable. Game
Time is an authorized ticket marketplace for Major League Baseball.
So you want to go to a Dodger game, a
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first purchase. So that's the redeem code COLN. So basically,
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You can preview where you're sitting, an authorized marketplace for
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minute tickets, lowest prices guaranteed. Well, I only get the
(01:38):
opportunity a couple times a year because he's the hardest
working man in print journalism in America. You know, Connor,
my friend, He's got a book. I cannot wait to
read it. I've already had several shots at several chapters
and it's so in depth. It's called Out of the Darkness,
The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers. It comes out next month.
(02:00):
You know what, As she've written this book, it helped
me to laugh. But Aaron's like a story a week.
Guy at I keep thinking, do you have to keep
doing updates for the book?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I did, actually, Colin, and thank you very much for
the kind words I handed in the book in January.
And at that point, after asking to get him for
months and getting no response or being told he's thinking
about it, assuming at that point he's not going to
talk to me. And generally my biographies they've been unauthorized
with limited or no cooperation from the main subject. So
(02:37):
and then in February I got a message from the Jets, well,
he's actually now willing to talk to you. And it
wasn't going to be a ten hour sit down where
he told me his life story, but it was more
a fact checking hour or two. So I got two
hours with him and great, So he answered some questions,
he made the book better, and then after that you
had the RFK Junior story drop that, you had the
(03:00):
Sandy Hook conspiracy story drop, and then some podcasts he
did after my access to him, where more conspiracies were
talked about, and so listen Aaron Rodgers. He was a
very difficult subject to get your arms around. I thought
Belichick was tough, but compared to Rogers, I think Belichick
(03:22):
was a walk in the park because he was a
mystery that I felt like there was a sameness to
it at the same time, and he was right in
front of me, and I always felt that Rogers was
a moving target, and so it was a challenge and
hopefully I conquered it. I guess the readers will will
let me know if I did.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, I think, you know, complex people are interesting, and
I've said Aaron's really good content for me. There are
parts of Aaron that I've said on the show before.
My theory on Aaron. One of them is he just
pushes back on authority. His family was very religious. He
(04:03):
pushed back on it. He pushed back on the Packers,
He's pushed back on the media. He's pushed back on
the government vaccines. Whether that's a good quality or not,
it can be unsettling to people covering him. But my
belief is he's a non conformist. Many of the people
in our lives, musicians and artists we have celebrated, are
(04:28):
non conformists. Is there a bit of artistry to his personality.
That's probably the wrong word, but in my life we
have often celebrated there's a construct of football that we
want organizational, dependable, reliable personalities. And is it arguable or
(04:49):
debatable he's more of an artist in a structured sport.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
That's a great question. And I'm used to Eli Manning
that model that Eli Manning Derek Jeter in New York
and Aaron is the complete opposite of that. And so,
but there is an art to creating a news cycle
rolling out of bed, and that's what he can do.
He can do that better than anyone else. Maybe in
all sports. He can create a news cycle like that. So,
(05:17):
and we've seen that over the years. And I think
he loves being interesting. I think he loves being talked about.
He loves being analyzed. I don't think he loves the
way the news media has treated him in recent years.
I think his viewpoints politically generally are in contrast with
what he believes is the liberal media, largely liberal media,
(05:40):
and he's right for the most part. And you look
at him, though, what's interesting is his life, his public life.
Colin changed with COVID because before COVID and the I've
Been Immunized press conference in August of twenty one, he
was not considered a villain. He was a guy who
is very socially aware. Back to Colin Kaepernick and the
(06:01):
right to kneel in protest, he actually rebuked the fan
who screamed out or shouted out an anti Muslim slur
in the middle of the national anthem. I think it
was right after the Paris terrorist attacks and got a
letter of congratulation, congratulations or thanks or appreciation from President Obama.
Mina Kimes had that, and so he was sort of
(06:24):
known as as an athlete who was socially aware and
engaged in the issues and really on the right side
of the issues. And all of a sudden, COVID and
his stance against vaccines changed everything for him in terms
of his public image.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, and by the way, he wasn't the only person
to do that. I don't view him as a conservative.
I view him as more of a contrarian, a little
bit of a Joe Rogan. Rogan's never had Trump on
his podcast. He says he doesn't want him. And I
think Aaron has said, you know about like Trump, who's
the ultimate like alpha Republican, which is like he didn't
(06:58):
drain the swamp. It's just a different from swamp. So
I think sometimes we view Aaron through a political prism
and I just see him as a nonconformist. And I
think it probably that stuff. At some point. You can
trace it back to his childhood, and let's pivot to that.
You wrote the book. What do we know about his childhood?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
He was raised in a very conservative Christian evangelical home.
And I think I talked to a family member, and
you know, of course, for the better part of ten years,
he has not had any contact with his immediate family,
his two brothers, right, so I think he ultimately And
(07:39):
one family member told me that this person felt that
when he went to Berkeley, when he went to cal
and all of a sudden, he leaves this cocoon, this
small town in northern California, overwhelmingly white, Chico, California, and
is at cal Berkeley, this global institution, pot of ideas
(08:01):
and races and nationalities, and just got exposed to a
lot of different things and beliefs, and that that really
inspired a rebellion against those Christian beliefs that he was
raised with, and that that rebellion inspired other rebellions against
other things. And I had a good friend of his
(08:24):
when he was younger say to me, we all we
believed in magic. Aaron and I did, and together we
talked about that. And when you believe in magic, you
believe in the possibility of almost everything. And this person
felt that that opened the door to conspiracy theories too.
And listen, he he studied the JFK assassination as a
(08:47):
sophomore in high school. He was fascinated by it, came
to believe that was a conspiracy that involved a government agency,
and that inspired other conspiracy theories as well. So I
think right now he actually told me that religion is
really a small part of the estrangement that But I
(09:09):
do think that if you go back to his childhood,
certainly he now does not consider him self religious. He
considers himself spiritual. But I think you see the seeds
of rebellion planet in his own rebellion against those beliefs
that he now does not hold.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah. There, I'm gonna throw this out and you can
latch onto this, and if there's any story in the
book that corroborates or refutes this, go ahead. But I've
said one of the statistics with Aaron that doesn't make
a lot of sense on the surface is his lack
of come from behind wins. In the NFL twenty one
(09:49):
playoff games he has won that would be low for
a bad quarterback. He's an all time great and I've
often used, you know, maybe it's tried a little glib.
He's more of a Baylor than a baller. Is that
when he plays poorly early, he quits that he's not
a fox hole guy, He's just brilliantly gifted. Jeter was
(10:13):
more of a leader, a Rod was more talented. Brady's
more of a leader, Aaron's just more talent. And that
I look at him, that there's a lack of fundamental,
lack of trust in a process, and when he struggles
early in games, his body language shifts. When he trails
late in games, there's a lack of trust for the
(10:33):
play calling. And that's part of his personality. It's the
only thing I can figure out and decipher why a
gifted quarterback in twenty one playoff games has only one
come from behind win. Does any of this line up
with some of his unique personality quirks or his fundamental
base personality.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Well, when he was younger, he was a fearless postseason player.
And I think what he won four of his first
five postseason games, and the throw he made to beat
Pittsburgh in the Super Bowl, the third down throw over
the middle to Jennings, is one of the great throws
in Super Bowl history. On third down. If that passes incomplete,
(11:13):
I think the Steelers win that Super Bowl. And so
he makes that play and other plays in that game
and in that postseason run. If you go back Colin
as I did, of course, and looked at particularly the
game against Atlanta and the playoffs that year that he
won it, you cannot play the position at a higher
level than that. Right, He had some Alan Iverson type
(11:34):
ankle breaking moves to escape guys in the pocket that
were just unbelievable, and the throws he made and just
the way he played in that game was it was art.
It was just hard to believe somebody could play at
that level. And after watching that game and seeing him
win the Super Bowl, it is really hard still after
studying his career in his life, to come to grips
with the fact that the Packers could not figure out
(11:55):
a way to win a second rate with this guy.
It's just unbelievable. One thing I'll point out, so this
doesn't really relate to his upbringing or character traits, but
he listen, if they recover an onside kick, He's in
the second Super Bowl. They don't recover an onside kick,
and didn't do six other things in the final minutes
of that game. And by the way, and by the way,
(12:17):
that comeback drive to tie and send it into overtime
against Seattle is totally forgotten. Was an amazing drive by
Aaron Rodgers to get that game into overtime after the
team and really the coaching staff around him fell apart.
So that doesn't count because they lost, but just in
that building, the loudest building in the NFL, after the
(12:40):
rest of the team really folded around him to drive
that team down the field to force overtime and lose
it basically on a coin toss. So that's a tough one.
Because they get to the Super Bowl that year. They
had beaten New England in the regular season, so they
would have a lot of confidence against Brady in the
Super Bowl that year. But he did not have Belichick. Okay,
(13:04):
Mike McCarthy was not a bad coach, but he's not
even close to Belichick. Tom Brady also had the best
offensive coordinator of his generation, and Brady had this great
system that Belichick created, and Aaron Rodgers had a slightly
better than average head coach and didn't have that system
(13:25):
or offensive coordinator a lot of times, didn't have a
great defense. And so I think that's that. Hey, it's there,
and it's part of his legacy. The lack of comeback
victory certainly is right there on his record, but he
very easily, in a different situation would have the multiple
rings that he doesn't have right now that everybody holds
(13:47):
against him, and he has a part in that too.
There were postseason victories that he left on the field
that he could have made a play to overcome somebody else,
and he didn't do that, and that is part of
his record as well.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, I think he's been fairly portrayed as a quarterback
as Marino level gifted, we're wanting more postseason success, a
little prickly, personally indifferent, but an all time great, and
I think that's incredibly fair. I always preferred him over
far Of. I thought he could play instructure and out
(14:23):
of it, whereas I thought Brett was arder to coach
and a little bit more of an old style gunslinger,
where Aaron could do a little bit of that but
also played in structure very very well. I don't think
he's been unfairly criticized. I do think, like a Joe Rogan,
when you're a news maker, the media are filled full
(14:45):
of human beings, they tend to take sides. There does
feel like a little bit of a negative pivot off Aaron.
Do you think he will often say it doesn't affect him.
Do you think it's had a corrosive effect on his
personality in some of his acts.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I think so. I think that's a fair way to
look at it, Colin and Listen, he's brought a lot
of this on himself, and I think he's for a
guy as smart as he is, a guy who had
thirteen ten on his SATs and is very thoughtful and
engaging and can talk about so many different things. He's
intellectually curious, and I've always thought he's one of the best,
(15:25):
if not the best interviews in the league. Yeah, he's
always he's a great talker, but he has said some
things that he's had to take back, and I think like,
for instance, the Jimmy Kimmel thing on McAfee. Right, So,
he did not go on the program that day planning
to talk about Epstein and Jimmy Kimmel and the Epstein list,
(15:49):
but A J Hawk, one of his good friends, blurted
it out a question. And obviously that show is very
free flowing and McFee does a great job with it.
But it's the way he responded to aj Hawk off
the cuff on the fly that got him in trouble,
and I think he was very careless with his words.
I actually believe he was not trying to say that
(16:11):
he thought Kimmel was on the list. I think he's
always been waiting for an opportunity to get back at
Kimmell form making fun of him previously on his show
regarding Aaron's belief or he suggested that all of a sudden,
we're getting all this information out of the government about
UFOs to divert attention away from the Epstein list, and
(16:34):
kim Ol mocked him for that, so he was trying
to get back at him. But the way he said it,
if you didn't know the context in the background, you
would believe that Aaron Rodgers was suggesting that Jimmy Kimmel
was going to be on that list, and of course
he wasn't, so he put himself in that position. He
got himself in trouble, and it was just once you
(16:54):
try to explain it days later, as he tried to do,
you've lost. You know that, once you have to expel
something like that, you've already lost. And so there are
cases like that in his career. That are dumbfounding, because
he is a very intelligent guy, and so I'd say
that he has brought a fair amount of that on himself.
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Speaker 2 (19:05):
The book is called Out of the Darkness. The Mystery
of Aaron Rodgers comes out next month. What part of
the book was the most interesting for you. There's there's
his grandfather, there's his parents, there's his childhood, there's Berkeley,
there's Green Bay, there's sitting behind FARV, there's taking over
for FARV. There's the prime years, there's the departure, the
(19:28):
exit from Green Bay. Was there a part of the
book that you you really there were surprises, There were
left turns that you really found you were as you
were compiling the information writing it. It was easy to write.
You really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
At the chapter one community college is one year and
at JUCO.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Oh, it's great, it's great.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I love that his coach, Craig Rigsby, is the Charles
Barkley of JUCO coaches. He was a great chapter, great character,
Thank you. And so. But I would say the story
that I really actually enjoyed researching and reporting on the
most was about his grandfather, because you know, I had
(20:10):
heard him passing it. Occasionally. You'd see it briefly mentioned
in a story that his grandfather served in World War Two,
and that was pretty much the extent of it. You
might see an occasional reference to the fact that he
was a POW. And so in Finding there's a guy
in Minneapolis named Dan Matthews who's a military records expert.
And this guy was gold and he found a lot
(20:31):
of this for me. I found some of it as well,
but documenting every mission that Edward Rogers flew as a
B twenty Wow combat pilot, and including one on Saint
Patrick's Day in nineteen forty four where his plane was
hit multiple times. His engine on the left side, one
of the four engines is on fire. He's flying over
(20:54):
in Nazi Germany, and the rest of his squadron they
weren't abandoning him, but it was protocols part of their mission.
They had to peel off and go to the next
stage of the mission. And he was all alone, on
fire over Germany in a B twenty four that he
was flying with ten men aboard, and he had to
make decisions, and he said, I felt like the loneliest
(21:14):
man in the world flying off Nazi Germany. And so
the story is he somehow flew that plane back to
the American base in Italy. They got down safely, so
effectively he saved eleven lives, including his own. And I
wanted to open the book with that chapter because there's
so much negativity about his family that I wanted to
(21:37):
actually write a positive story about his family. And his
grandfather was an amazing combat pilot who flew forty four missions,
forty three of them successful against Hitler's war machine shot
down on the forty fourth, was beaten and mistreated as
a pow, told war crimes investigators of his mistreatment, and
(21:57):
we have all of that in the book, and I
think that actually was my favorite chapter.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, it's by the way, it is such an impressive
feat of reporting. I was a bit in awe of
you reading that chapter. I sometimes, you know, Walter Isaacson
will do this, you will do this.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I'm not. Don't mention me in the same sense with it,
but thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I've sometimes you guys that write these books, you just
go a mile deep, and I'm jealous of not only
the time you have to do it, but your ability
to find it, bring it to light and tell it artfully.
I just think it's so fascinating now. I always thought
there was such a unique, interesting contrast between this great
(22:48):
looking hipster that went to Berkeley that ends up in
Green Bay, Wisconsin, the smallest talking about the loneliest places
in the NFL. Do you think Aaron on a social level,
what was Green Bay like for him? That's always been fascinating.
I know, he goes to Malibu in the off season,
(23:09):
but for about twenty weeks, you live in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
Didn't you think he liked it appreciated it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
He did. And it's funny because after he got drafted,
of course, he's very disappointed that he plunged in the
first round. He was supposed to a lot of people
thought he should have gone number one to his childhood
team San Francisco. That was his dream. The Niners pick
Alex Smith instead, so he falls to twenty four to
Green Bay and Thomas Weatherspoon, former NCAA champion sprinter, was
(23:39):
a trainer for Aaron Rodgers. A guy made him faster,
and he said to him, this is great. This is
like Chico with snow and they Green Bay quarterbacks. In
Green Bay, they're gonna build a statue for you and
they're gonna love you to death, and there's no better
place to be. So this plunge in the first round
(24:02):
is really a blessing in disguise, and I think Aaron
saw that. And now I don't think the Green Bay
community embraced him like it embraced Brett Farr, because they
saw Farv is one of us, even though he was
from the South, yes, right, hunter fisherman, hanging out with
the boys in the bar, high fiving fans over a
(24:23):
beer by everyone around in the bar until of course
he went into until he got sober, and and then
that changed a little bit. But yeah, they saw he
is one of us, and I don't think they ever
saw Rogers as one of us. But I think it
was a really good fit for him, coming from a
small market, being overlooked, coming a juco guy, and then
(24:47):
he ends up in Green Bay and it really was
a great marriage, even though it wasn't the same relationship
with the fans that Farv had. And it just can't
believe that they only won oneampionship with him when you
look at the talent, and some of it is his fault,
but it's a shame. And really, at the end for
(25:08):
John Elway, he got a second ring, got his first
ring in a second ring at the end of his career,
and Peyton Manning got that second ring right at the
end of his career. And I think that it would
be a good thing really to see Aaron Rodgers get
that second ring before he retires, because he's too good
to retire with one ring. Thankfully, he's got one and
not zero, because we'd be really destroying him for that.
(25:31):
But he really should retire with multiple rings. And hey, listen,
the Jet fan base is the most fatalistic fan base
I've ever encountered, and at some point it's going to happen.
Entering the two thousand and four season, the Red Sox
fan base thought it would never happen, and it did.
Entering twenty sixteen, the Cubs fan base thought it would
never happen, and it did. The New York Ranger fan
(25:53):
base in ninety four thought it would never happen, and
it did. So at some point it will happen for
the Jets. Hopefully it'll be this year.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
So when you gave me the early to middle chapters
of the book, and it's the kind of stuff folks,
you just pick a weekend when it's raining in the
fall and sit and read. It's just easy to devour.
I did not get the final chapters. Is there much
in it about the Jets? It's a very brief part
of his career, and if anything is there, the relationship
(26:28):
with Sola, two good looking young guys, appear to be
very strong early. I wonder if it's as strong today,
I don't.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Think it is. He didn't say that, so I want
to make that clear. I did talk to him about
the Jets, the experience. I do have a lot on
the Jets in the book. Of course, that's at the
end of the book. And I think that when they
met that five hour meeting, when the Jets sent that
delegation out to Malibu to try to convince him to
(26:59):
force the trade to New York, he spent most of
his time with Salah in that meeting. Everybody else is
sort of hanging out on the backyard deck overlooking the
Pacific Ocean. But so I think he still has a
good He always had a good relationship with Sala I
still think it's strong. But they all know they're getting
fired if they don't make the playoffs this year. And
(27:21):
I think Aaron certainly has to question this guy's ability
as a head coach. I think he's a great guy,
and I think he is a guy if I were
an owner of an NFL team, I would want to
employ him. But as a defensive coordinator, he has not
proven that he can be a good head coach. He
hasn't done it. So Aaron knows that. So I think
(27:41):
he still likes him, still has maybe some belief in him,
not as much as when he signed on, But yeah,
this is this book has a lot of Jet material
in it, particularly how to play Unfolded where he got hurt.
It shouldn't have happened. I explain why he talks in
Deep Tale about that play. Wow ways that listen. Garrett
(28:04):
Wilson was open and so obviously the cut block technique.
I think the Athletic had a story about how Aaron
Is never liked cut blocking, and I talked to him
about that. And Dwayne Brown missed the cup block on
Leonard Floyd. That creates an opportunity. And it really was
an amazing night being in the building. I've never experienced
(28:27):
a more charged regular season crowd, not just for the Jets,
in my almost forty years of covering sports in New York,
any team. I mean that night, that crowd was unbelievable.
And to see it taken away four snaps in like that,
it was hard. It was hard to take. I was
getting text messages from friends, I feel terrible, your book
(28:47):
is dead and I didn't care about my book. I
felt heartsick for the fans and for him to be there.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
In that point. Yeah, yeah, I remember the next day
after that, I went on the air and people knew
I was critical of Aaron, and I had several reach
out to me. And because I went on the air
and I said, I feel so bad for Aaron Rodgers,
I felt sick to my stomach. A I'd never root
against the player, root for a player getting hurt. But
I think Aaron has been a content machine for what
(29:16):
I do, and I do appreciate that. And you know,
he made some points on the vaccines that he may
be right. You know, I tended to get in line
with the government. Maybe I was wrong and gullible. I
don't know, but the book is coming out, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I could be wrong. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I was open minded and I told him I have
zero agenda with this book. I have no agenda whatsoever.
I didn't have any real negative thoughts when you arrived
in New York about you. And it's funny because I
had more trouble convincing people that that. They assumed I
was a liberal media guy with an agenda, and I
think after over time they realized I wasn't and I
(29:54):
was just trying to document a significant American life. But
I had more trouble convincing people to talk did with
my Belichick book, and that's that was a surprising part
of it. How many people were afraid to talk about
Aaron Rodgers. And I think I won that battle over time,
but it was a battle to get there and so
but but yeah, it was Listen. I have a good
(30:17):
feeling about this Jets team, and I know you've been
a critic. I think you've been fair on Rodgers. Your
criticism to me is fair game. I would like to
look at the all time list, and I think you
have him a little lower than I have him. I
have him fifth. And the way I try to do
it is very subjective, of course, but try to make
it more objective. And my formula is to take regular
(30:41):
season MVPs plus Super Bowl MVPs. So it's a team sport.
But if you are the best player in the league,
and then how many times are you the best player
in the biggest game in American sports, put the two
together and come up with a number. And that's that's
why I have Aaron Rodgers in my top five. I
had him fifth, but I think obviously Mark Schleare said
(31:02):
he belongs at the kids table when it comes to
it at a gathering of all time quarterbacks, I think
he's the last seed at the main table. But I
think he belongs at the main table. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I've always put him in the Merino class, where I
think he and Marino throw the prettiest ball. I want more.
I'm left hungry after their football careers, but it's indisputable
that they're iconic, They're brilliant. I'm more critical, although I
don't talk of him with Marino because I think Marino
(31:33):
had the first or second bet coach for his entire
career and Aaron didn't. Also, Dan Marino had an owner
and that helps in free agency. Aaron Rodgers didn't. So
I think at some point I will go down. I
will probably have him closer to eight or nine Marino.
In that same thing. Lway won the big games, Marino
didn't win as many, but I think we both believe
(31:56):
he's an all time talent. I've always had him ahead
of Farv, but I do think I do think he
needs to. Far have had a very, a really remarkable year,
thirty three touchdown, seven picks that first year in Minnesota.
Then he got injured that was. I mean that, in
my opinion, that was one of the great years by
an aging quarterback ever, maybe the greatest year by an
(32:18):
aging quarterback. If Aaron sputters here this year after last
year and kind of a weak year in Green Bay
at the end, I don't think it's not you know,
we forgot Jordan was so good. We forget about Washington.
I mean, it's like footage has disappeared. I do think
Aaron needs to be we have to see some magic.
(32:39):
It's a nice way. It's icing on a very good cake.
And I you know, I kind of project their an
eight nine win team. I don't see twelve thirteen. But
I don't blame Aaron. I think I think the coaching
and the coordinating leaves a little to be desired. I
want to move to Bill Belichick because you've also done
the Belichick book, and Aaron and Belichick have one thing
(33:03):
in common.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
I think.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Both at the end of their careers, made a decision
in the last seven or eight years, maybe five or
six years Belichick shared with urban Meyer. There's just certain
guys I want to coach, and I'm not going to
coach guys I don't want to coach well that's the
opposite of sacrifice for the team that Bill wanted to
be more comfortable. He relied on assistancy, knew even if
(33:29):
they failed elsewhere, Aaron, there was a certain language that
Bill was comfortable with, and he kept hiring his language
back and was comfortable with only certain players. Winning isn't comfortable.
It's uncomfortable Aaron has gotten. I think a disservice at
offensive coordinator with Nat Hackett, Alan Lazard, Randall Cobb. It
(33:53):
is and I want to instead of addressing that with Aaron,
I want to address it with Bill. Do you think
Belichick reporting recently by ESPN that Tom Pelasarrow I think
said recently rich Eisens show he is interested in getting
back into coaching next year. Do you think the market
Is it a dynamic market or is it a two
(34:14):
to three team market because age scares people. Brady had
no market when he left New England. It was like
the Chargers and the Box. Kirk Cousins didn't have much
of a market for a very good career. Do you
think Belichick last year no market will have much of
a market.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I actually think you're onto something there about it being
a two or three team market. But I think the
interest from those two or three teams could be intense.
So I remember Brady said of the team he didn't name,
you're keeping that guy instead of signing. Then there was speculation, well,
who was that guy and what was that team? But
(34:53):
I felt that way about Belichick in this last cycle.
You're hiring that guy or keeping that guy, and not
high Bill Belichick. But I do think just look at
the NFC East. Could you imagine Jerry Jones hiring Belichick. Yeah. Now,
Belichick working with Jones, I know they have a good relationship,
but Parcells told me that it was a problem when
(35:15):
he was there. He liked Jerry Jones, didn't have a
major problem in them overall. But after games, Jerry Jones
holds a press conference right outside the locker room. I've
been in five, six or seven of them, and the
coaches down the hall in the interview room, and those
messages could conflict, and Parcells said that was tough to
deal with. Imagine Belichick down the hall saying nothing and
(35:36):
Jerry's saying everything outside the locker room. Now, maybe Bill
can convince him not to do that anymore, but Jerry's
been doing that for a long time, and he puts
on a show. He'll talk about anything after a game.
So that'll be interesting to watch that marriage if it happens.
But the Giants, and if the Giants are I don't know,
(35:56):
six and eleven again this year, Dable's in trouble and
the Marath family loves the Parcels, Belichick, Tree, and Bill
will be sitting there. And at the end of the day,
I've always felt this that deep in a place he
won't admits exists, Bill's a giant. That's the one building
he walked into. He saw the NFL films where he
(36:19):
got emotional right, so to end his career if he could.
The only reason he didn't get the job after Parcels
stepped down. Now Bill had already left for Cleveland. He
left because he knew that George Young the GM hated
him and was never going to hire him as head coach.
So George Young now in the Hall of Fame and
rightfully so, one of the best football men I've ever met,
(36:40):
But he hated Belichick. So to go back and have
that be his final job and to try to win
a championship in New York, Yeah, that would be something.
And I think that's a possibility, and I don't think
the Giants are gonna be very good this year, so
the Eagles, of course also possibly in place. So if
you're an He's head coach, beware because I think I
(37:03):
don't think Bill wants to go west. I think he
wants to stay near home, and I think the Northeast
is that's who he is, and so I suspect there
will be a lot of interest from two or three
teams and he'll get a job. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
The other one I would throw out is Buffalo. Although
Sean mcdermot's done a good job, there is a sense
as the asc AFC just keeps getting better that Buffalo
is kind of leaving, leaving some things on the on
the floor. I don't think here's why I'll throw that
one out. I think Bill holds grudges and to be
(37:41):
able to crush Robert Kraft twice a year and go
back to Foxborough, I think it's something Ian. It's a little,
but it feels like something.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It'll give you a better one than that the Jets
if they missed the playoffs, everybody gets fired, right, But
what if Aaron Rodgers makes fourteen starts, gets hurt in
the middle of the season, and Tyrod Taylor takes the
other three starts, plays a fairly high level of football,
better than his final year in Green Bay, not as
good as the MVP years, and Woody Johnson, who loves
(38:11):
star quarterbacks and loves Aaron, decides, I'm firing everybody, but
I want Aaron to come back. And I'll throw the
kitchen sink at Belichick and say, you walked out on
us on this before I became owner, after twenty four
hours as head coach, and you dominated us for the
better part of two decades. Why not finish your career
here with a quarterback who's a bat as close to
(38:33):
an aging Tom Brady as you can find, and a
guy you can work with. I mean, I think that's
a long shot, but I wouldn't completely rule that out.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
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paid advertisement. When you attack these books, you make really
good choices, and there's a lot of people do this.
The Belichick book, the Derek Jeter book, the Aaron Rodgers book.
While you're a columnist, while you're doing other work, a
(40:12):
great dad, husband, you're you're a busy guy. Right when
you finished the Aaron book, what's the feeling of two
to three years of a mile deep? What's the feeling?
Are you just how do you.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Think I sort of feel that these books take a
few years off the end of your life. I hope that,
but it does feel that way. And but then when
you have like that first copy in your hands, Yeah,
that is a pretty glorious feeling, I have to admit.
And it is the hardest thing I've ever attempted to
do in this business, and one of the maybe the
(40:53):
second hardest, was filling in for you. Seriously. I mean this.
I'm not just saying this because I'm on with you,
but I've told my wife this, and she's a fan
of yours and other people. So I don't know, maybe
ten times eleven times I did your show when you
were at ESPN when you're on vacation, and to sit
there on national radio and national TV and basically do
(41:16):
a three hour show by yourself where you're debating yourself
and trying to create conversation with yourself as you did
so expertly, that might be the second hardest thing for
a time, because I don't have your personality or your
skill for it. And so that was a fight, and
it was it was just to try to reach a
respectable level. And I felt like I owed that to
(41:37):
you because they were putting me in your chair, and
I mean that from the bottom of my heart. That
is that might be the second hardest thing I've ever
attempted in this business. And that's a credit to you,
because you're the best at it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Well. I always appreciate that. I want to talk about
I'm not a big believer. I think choices is another
word for fate. I'm pretty agnostic, though most of my
friends are very religious. I fear more toward the spirituality.
I think I don't believe in too many coincidences. Right now,
(42:14):
New York as the as the Yankee sort of spiral.
New York has had a bad mostly decade in sports,
and I was thinking about this the other day. I
thought Jalen Brunson taking less one hundred and fifteen million
(42:34):
dollars less for the next was one of the savvyest moves.
And I know he'll get pushed back because the term
get the bag now is just synonymous with like NBA stars.
Is Brunson the most loved athlete in the last fifteen
(42:55):
years in New York since Ewing or since Jeter?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
I think Eli's in there. I think Eli winning the
two Super Bowls, but he's close and Brunton, if he
just gets one, it's going to explode. But what's amazing
is and he'll he'll make up that money maybe in
the next contract. And I think he's eligible in twenty
twenty eight when he can get over three hundred millions.
So but he's smart. We go how smart this guy is.
(43:20):
He looks around and says, well, nobody in New York's
won a championship in forever, and the Knicks happened once.
It's nineteen seventy three. So somebody's going to be the
guy who does it. And the guy who does it,
if it's me, that's going to be worth a lot
more than one hundred and thirteen million dollars in my lifetime.
He's going to be lionized forever. And he was smart
(43:42):
enough to figure it out. And so if you look
at New York Sports right now, and we've talked about this,
I think on other shows where New York sort of
lost its advantage over other markets because you can be
a global superstar in Oklahoma City wherever. The world is
so small now, so New York's lost that edge. But
(44:02):
the one edge New York has is if you look
at the Mets have one since eighty six. The Jets
haven't won since January sixty nine. The Knicks have won
since nineteen seventy three, The Mets haven one since eighty six,
the Yankees to them since two thousand and nine. That's
a drought. So if you come to New York and
end the drought, you are lionized forever. And it's the
(44:27):
payoff there is worth far more than one hundred and
thirteen million dollars, particularly when Brunton will get that back
in the next contract. He was smart enough to figure out,
now's the time I have to help the Knicks forminate
a championship roster because I'm going to lead that roster
and if we win it all that is going to
be something that you can't buy. And doing that in
(44:48):
New York after more than fifty years for the Knicks,
what is that going to mean to him? Mark Messier
won five Cups in Edmonton. He ended a fifty four
year drought in New York and that's the only cup
anyone ever talks about. Is winning number six is the
one he one and the drought for the Rangers, and
he'll tell you that that they talk more about that
than the other five combined, and he can't buy a
(45:10):
meal in New York, of course, for the rest of
his life. So yeah, Brunson is smart enough, he's figured
it out. I'm making killer money, multi generational money anyway,
so let me try to do what I can to
be the guy who ends the drought. So then my
legacy goes to a stratosphere I can't even imagine. So
I think he's made the right play.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Here for the audience listening that doesn't know the hierarchy
of the Knicks. They may know James Dolan, who I
think was side pracked with the Sphere for two years,
which allowed the front office to control basketball as Dolan
stepped away. He has a musical background and it was
actually an advantage. Now the Sphere's done, the Sphear's done,
(45:54):
he's back to talking about how much he loves Julius Randall,
which is problematic because I don't think he fits with
what they Once Hartenstein left, they lost size at true center.
Randall small. I don't think he fits this small lineup,
which often goes four guards. It'll be now three guards.
McHale bridges. So I don't think Randall fits. I think
he's productive. I don't think he's a good fit. And
here comes James Dolan, done with his Vegas project, to
(46:16):
talk basketball and how much he loves Julius Randall. But
over the last two years, the Knicks have arguably gone
from the most disfunctional organization ownership group to a highly
functional maybe not Miami or Golden State, but a highly
functional operation. Who do we give credit to? In the
suite upstairs?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Leon Rose is very simple and listen. He hasn't talked
to the media in I don't know more than two years.
It's New York City. I don't know how Adam Silver
and New Yorker lets him get away with that. I
wrote a column that was very critical of him a
couple of years ago. The Knicks went crazy for this column.
And because he hasn't talked to the beat writers and
(46:58):
the media at large in New York City, it has
to be more than two years now, not one word.
So now Knicks fans don't care because the guy knows
what he's doing. And I'll admit that, I'm not afraid
to say he's done a great job. Early on, he struggled.
He made some moves that Tibbs didn't like he got
a couple guys in that like Cam Reddish that Tibbs
didn't want and fourty A and Kemba Walker, guys that
(47:21):
Tibbs didn't want. And but man, it's one home run
now after another, and I have to give a man
credit for doing it, and so I will. And now
his roster is one that Could they go to the
NBA finals next year after getting Bridges, Yeah, I think
they can because it's so hard to repeat now in
the NBA. And look look at Denver this year. They
(47:43):
couldn't get through even to the finals. And after they
won last year, we thought they might win three of
the next four. And I guess they still might. Boston,
it's going to be tough to do it again. They're
coming back with the same team. Are they better than
the next air roster? Yes, but it's just so hard
to get back that I think there's an opportunity there
for the next to get through and challenge somebody in
(48:04):
the West. I think Bridges was the right move. You're
right about Randall, but you know what, he's a twenty
four and ten guy and I think he has value
around the league. If they don't move him, what they
could use is a center who could shoot from the outside,
just to open up lanes for Brunson and hart and
(48:24):
Dee Vincenzo and Bridges, and just to space the defense
out some they don't they didn't have last year with
Hartenstein and Mitchell Robinson a center who could do that.
So if they can move Randall into packs now they
had to send so many assets out to get Bridges.
But if for a I don't know, does Minnesota decide
(48:46):
that Karl Anthony Towns and Edwards and Gobertt's that doesn't
quite fit. We need to add a different piece to
win it all. Maybe I know that Cat. I know
that Timms is willing to coach Cat again even though
they they had problems in Minnesota. I know that for
a fact. And I also know as a New Jersey kid,
he does have Towns does have some interest in playing
(49:09):
for the Knicks at some point. So, but it would
be something like that maybe I could see happening. But
I do think Randall has value around the league.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yeah, and when he was in Los Angeles, you know,
he's one of those players where the league, the culture
and the style of the league changed and Dwight Howard
fell off a Cliff Randal didn't. But he's not aligned
with current basketball. He's not going to shoot from the perimeter.
He's kind of an old school bully ball, physical player,
(49:38):
relentlessly hard player, intense. It doesn't look it's not aesthetically pretty,
it's not the current game. But he's productive and there
is you know, sometimes he has struggled in the playoffs,
but there is value. I in dropping twenty four and
eight a night in the regular season, which is such
a treadmill. Which is I mean, it's a long hike
(49:59):
and a dark, windy road, and I think he provides
for a lot of teams stability and production. But I
got to tell you, as somebody who started watching the
NBA in the early seventies, I find the Knicks have
the and this is hard for a big market team.
I find them incredibly likable. The Villanova thing is God,
(50:23):
they're likable. I can't think of the last I mean,
I didn't necessarily love the Giants. The Yankees were fun,
but again, out spending everybody, this Knicks team feels like
one of the more huggable in New York history.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
No question, Colin and you look at Brunson, is the
biggest reason why because he's the guy again, as when
he arrived, I wasn't sure and many people weren't sure
if he was good enough to be the second best
player in the championship team. I think he's proven he
could be the best player on the YESEA yeah, right,
with the right pieces around him. But now taking less
money sort of a lah Tom Brady and trying to
(50:58):
help the roster and trying the championship and just saying
all the right things. I mean, he would fit in
with the Red Holtzman Nicks in nineteen seventy and seventy three,
and he fits in today perfectly. And he was a
coach's son, a point guard son, and you could just
see he's got so much savvy on the floor. His
(51:19):
footwork is unbelievable. I think he's got the best footwork
for a guard I've ever seen, particularly in the paint.
And he's not athletic. You look at his body, he
doesn't look like an NBA player, so it doesn't look
like an NBA superstar, and yet he is. And it's
like every night. I remember his first year in New York.
Tim Bontems and ESPN used to make fun of me
because I was working at the New York Post as
a columnist, and every time I went to a Knicks game,
(51:41):
I wrote a column about Jalen Brunson. And are you
ever going to write about somebody else? And I said, no, Tim,
because I've been around a lot longer than you, and
I see what's happening here. In year one, you could
see it. It was a perfect marriage between market and athlete,
and it was only going to get better. And that's
exactly what's happened.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah. Ian O'Connor upcoming book, Out of the Darkness, The
Mystery of Aaron Rodgers, comes out next month. How long
officially did it take to write that book beginning.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
To end the actual writing process? Probably five months. Of course,
there's a lot of reporting that goes into it, and
I like for these books, particularly unauthorized books, where the
subject is giving you very little, if anything at all,
You're interviewing hundreds of people. So listen, it wasn't as
(52:32):
long as Belichick. Aaron Rodgers hasn't been on the planet
as long as Belichick. Belichick was the I think I
want to say that was a full three years. This
was more like a year and a half and I
would say the average for me is probably two years.
I did want this book to come out when Aaron
was still playing, and so a lot of people thought
(52:55):
I was dead in the water when he got hurt
last year. Well, the book's coming out this year. I
don't want to say the injury it was an awful
thing to witness, but in some ways I think it
might have helped the book. Most people assumed it killed
it because last year is now this year, and they
have to get in the playoffs. He has to have
a big year or this whole thing is getting blown up.
(53:17):
So I actually think that might add some intrigue to
the story that I've told here as the season unfolds.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Also, they got a little bit of a break from
the schedule maker, a lot of night games, a lot
of standalone games. They opened with Stan Francisco, So, as
you know with book sales, the more he's in the news,
the more controversy, the more people are fascinated. They're going
to be on TV all of September and early October,
and if they win, which I suppose they'll do outside
(53:45):
of the Niners opener, that'll help. I mean, the best
thing for your book is a six game Aaron Rodgers
winning streak.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Yeah, right, And the worst thing Colin is, of course,
and God forbid he gets hurt on opening night again.
And I'm like, when I saw that schedule, I said
to myself to the NFL, are you trying to get
him hurt on opening night again against San Francisco on
the road?
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Did it happen with a new offensive line?
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Exactly so? And listen, it's interesting because they didn't draft
him number one in two thousand and five, and they
should have. And that's that was his childhood team. He
loved Joe Montana and Steve Young, and he wanted to
be the quarterback of the San Francisco forty nine ers.
He can't beat them in the playoffs, right, He's lost
to Kaepernick and Garoppolo in the playoffs, and he struggled
(54:28):
against them in the postseason. He's had some success against
San Francisco in the regular season. So, but that is
a tough opening night for him, brutal a year after
he got hurt on opening night after four snaps or so.
I didn't love that first game. But if you look
at their schedule, could you see an avenue for them
(54:48):
to go eleven and six, ten and seven, I would
say that, yes, that's possible. I have a good feeling
about it. Usually when I write books about people, they
have very successful seasons when the book is out. So
for the sake of Jets fans who are very fatalistic
as I mentioned, and have been waiting, right, I always
say that the Jets have not appeared in a Super
(55:08):
Bowl since Neil Armstrong stepped on the move, so it's time.
It's time for magic to happen. I think it would
be a great story. I'm selfish in terms of wanting
that for my book, but that aside, I do want
to see that. I've never covered a Jets Super Bowl.
I'd love to be able to do that, and I'd
love to see Jets fans get that payoff.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Ian O'Connor, my friend, it's always great to see you.
Know how much I respect you and enjoy this stuff.
And you don't have much of a stummer left, but
what you do before you start digging into camps a
couple of the Giants and the Jets. I wish it well, and.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Really I met what I said before, and you know
what I feel about you and your work, So thank
you very much.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Calm. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast,
take a moment, rate and review
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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