Best of the Week on The Herd

Where Colin was right and wrong...plenty of both

Bill Simmons from The Ringer joins The Herd to talk about all things NBA and the new Celtics documentary

Colin talks to NBA analyst Rachel Nichols about the biggest issue in the NBA that people haven't recognized

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Herd podcast. Be sure to
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(00:22):
listening to Fox Sports Radio. All right, here we go.
It's a Monday. It's our number two live in Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
It's The Herd.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Wherever you may be and however you may be listening.
Thanks for making us part of your day. Jmac Bill
Simmons in five minutes, Founder CEO of The Ringer Podcast. Legend.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
You've gone him a while, Huh, I haven't.

Speaker 4 (00:45):
I haven't seen that guy, must have been like ten years.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
I went up to him at a Super Bowl party.

Speaker 5 (00:49):
And he was like, stunt this round was the big lead,
you know, And he was like stunned and he's, oh,
the big lead and you started talking. He's actually a
pretty nice guy.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
I saw him. I see hi wrestler and stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
For yet with So are you going to wrestling a
lot these days?

Speaker 1 (01:03):
I've been to it. I went to a WrestleMania it's
so far, and it was. My son had the best time.
I've never seen my son laugh that much. He loved it.
We sat right in front of Simmons and his son
and I told my son, I said, it's like theater,
It's like Broadway. Lean into it. So my son is booing.
You know, you're a jerk. And then you know the wrestling,
I've been to two of them. I've been to a Wrestlemanian.

(01:25):
Then I've just been doing another event. The fun we
can I say that. I know I used to call
those fans booger readers, but you know some are. It's Monday,
Colin right, Colin wrong?

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Here we go where Colin was right?

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, well, well, j Mack only has ten teams left.
I've got fifteen of sixteen teams left for the television audience.
This is the staff can vouch for me. This is
my bracket. Last week, Jaymack and I went toe to toe.
We gave our brackets in and I'm only missing one team.

(02:00):
Rick Patino did me wrong, but good so far. I'm
probably gonna pay a dear price for not having Duke
win it all. But I think I think you know
Dukal have their hands full. Leave it at that.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Where Colin was right.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
I've said the Dodgers being villains great for baseball. I
just saw the ratings for the games in Japan. Twenty
five million viewers across all platforms, most watched baseball game
ever in Japan. The second game almost got as many
against the Cubs. Folks outside of the NFL, sports needs villains.

(02:37):
It's good when the Celtics win. It's good when the Lakers.
One of the Yankees and Dodgers merchandise is off the chain.
By the way, those games with the viewers were starting
at three am Pacific time and still did really good numbers.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Where Colin was raw well, I have.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
A little feud with John Calipari, but he beat Bill
self in round one and Rick Patino in round two,
and he deserves credit because this team's had injuries all year.
They were bad to start the season, only finished eight
and ten in the SEC. But Calipari deserves credit. He
is the only coach ever to take four different schools,
only second coach ever four different schools of sweet sixty.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Where Colin was right, well.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
I said when the US men's soccer hired Mauricio Pochadino
that if they ever lost, they'd blame the coach. Well,
we just got shut out by Panama and lost to
Canada in the Nation's League games. It's our worst finish
in a long time. And I've said we overvalue our players.

(03:43):
We think it doesn't matter who the coach is. Jurgen Klinsman,
Steve Bruce Arena, it doesn't matter. The coach always takes
the heat. And my knock has been we have some
good players, but last World Cup we're way too young,
probably still too young to finish as a top four
to eight team. But once again we get a new

(04:04):
coat after driving one out and it's the same result.
We don't have the intensity in big games like we should.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Where Colin was right.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Rock Perdy reportedly wants Dak money. I laugh at all
these people tell him he's gonna take a pay cut,
team friendly deal. No, even though he was one and
six against playoff teams last year with more interceptions than
touchdowns and had his second troubling injury, he views himself
as great. He's been gassed up because he's a seventh

(04:36):
round pick. He's never made any money, so he is
gonna go and play hardball. I've said it. I think
Aaron Rodgers privately is talking to the Niners. I could
be wrong on this. He maybe If I'm Aaron Rodgers,
I don't sign. I sit on the sidelines and wait
and watch what's happening with the Niners.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Where Colin was wrow, I.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Had Saint John's and Rick Pati in the final four. Listen.
I knew they weren't a great shooting team, but a
lot of college teams aren't great shooting teams. This is
not the NBA. They were awful offensively, and here's Patino
after the loss.

Speaker 6 (05:12):
We thought we were championship driven in our minds, but
I've been disappointed before with this. You hate to see
us play like that. I don't mind going out with
a loss. I just hate to see us play that
way offensively. And you got to live with it. You
put a lot of time and effort the coaches did.
It's just a bit a pill to swallow.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Where Colin was right.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
The SEC has seven teams in the Sweet sixteen. Florida, Auburn,
and Tennessee all looked good enough to win all miss role.
Number three seed Iowa State Bama is winning to I
went almost all chalk with SEC teams. I had Arkansas
losing to Saint John's, but in the end set it

(06:00):
in January when I watched the SEC, I said it
two different times on this show. Are you guys watching
college basketball? Because it looks like SEC football about five
years ago. They just look bigger, longer, faster, and more
skilled than every other conference. Where Colin was right, Nase
Harris set it out loud. The Steelers don't have any

(06:21):
identity on offense. He said, I'd go to the defensive
guys and talk to them, but they wouldn't be too much.
They couldn't tell me about the offensive line. This is
what we've said. It is so crystal clear that is
the NFL pivoted to offense. They led the NFL in
defensive spending again, and they are an antiquated offensive culture.

(06:42):
That's why I think Nause Harris is one of the
great pickups of the offseason. Colin Wright, Colin Wrong, Bill Simmons,
you know him, the ringer, CEO and founder cultural critic
Bill Simmons podcast at Built. He's a very busy guy,
so I don't get him very often, but he's got
a cool looking Usually I see you and Rossello doing
your things.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
I have not.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
I'm starting this week. The staff is all cut up.
They're singing the praises of your math.

Speaker 4 (07:07):
You're not gonna watch it?

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Come on, No, I am, I will, I will, I do,
I travel a lot, I watch. I'll watch every episode.
First one's Koozy, then Russell, then it's the Celtics I
grew up with, which was six eight, Dave Collens at
center and Halt. That's what I grew up with. Then
we're going to the one that's really fascinating birds. I'm
gonna ask you this question to start when you come
up with an idea like this, the day the light

(07:29):
goes on, the epiphany to the series starts. Because Hollywood,
everything's molasses, everything slow motion. How long is the process
from light bulb to show as airing?

Speaker 7 (07:43):
Well, first of all, it's an honor to follow a
naj Harris segment.

Speaker 4 (07:47):
I was really hoping that would happen in mid March.

Speaker 7 (07:49):
I know the world's talking about Naji right now, so
it's great to be here. It started probably twenty twenty,
and it just takes so long to finish deal, and
it takes so long to find a director and find
the behind the scenes team that this was probably a
four year process splus.

Speaker 4 (08:07):
We're making nine episodes.

Speaker 7 (08:09):
Nine hours of content and you know, looking back, it
feels like a million years ago when we started, and
it was really hard to do because you're telling you know,
it's one of the most famous franchises in any sport.
It intersects with the city of Boston in all these ways,
and the NBA in America. So it was a pretty
ambitious thing that I feel good about what we pulled off.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, you've also, because of the tragedy to lend Bias,
there was also another run that could have been and
wasn't You guys could have had your next Pross that's right,
So you you could have had a pre Larry Birdlary
and you didn't. So that's something I've always thought about
Boston is you know the Lakers, you know, with with

(08:50):
with Kobe and Gasol, you could have had another one there.
So this is a franchise that could have more. They've
had some bad fate. When you, as a Celtic fan
look at all the teams, is there one that to
you is closest to your heart?

Speaker 4 (09:06):
I mean the Celtics because we had season tickets.

Speaker 7 (09:09):
My dad got a ticket in the seventy three seventy
four season, used to carry me in and then we
eventually got two in the late seventies, so I went
to the most Celtic games.

Speaker 4 (09:18):
So I obviously that's that personally.

Speaker 7 (09:22):
Just being there, being in the building for some of
the best and the worst stuff, I think matters the most.
I think what's interesting about the team as a whole is,
you know, they mattered the most. They were the most
successful franchise in the world for the first forty years really.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
Until Bias died, and then it just dipped and.

Speaker 7 (09:42):
There was this slow process where you're hanging on to
the old memories, you're hoping it's going to work out,
and then eventually you just become another NBA team.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
The Garden goes down in ninety five. They just have
this absolute drought where they're not relevant really for nine
solid years until the two thousand two team.

Speaker 7 (10:01):
So it's this once powerful institution that completely falls apart
and then eventually resurrects, starting with the KG trades.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
So that part made it really compelling as a story too.

Speaker 7 (10:12):
It's it's nine episodes, but you know, once we get
into the nineties and the two thousands, it gets pretty dark.
A lot of stuff has happened to this team. So
that made it great from a storytelling standpoint.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
You know, it's a different world. It used to be
that all the NBA guys were fighting for a smaller pie,
and so Michael Jordan really did hate the Pistons and everybody.
You know, there was real animosity. Now, Bird and Magic
didn't like each other initially, but over the course of
time they had some respect for each other. But it's interesting.

(10:44):
It's a more collaborative basketball world a you guys all
play together. And I've said this about Jason Tatum. He
is a product of what basketball is today. It's not
high school rivalries and college rivalries. It's au basketball. You
may not even go to college by the time you
get into the NBA. All help each other with charities,
your friends, and so we can criticize Tatum, but he

(11:06):
is a product of this generational basketball player. Lebron doesn't
have any enemies, He's never gotten into a fight. They
all get paid. So I guess my point is you
can't really criticize Tatum when he doesn't have quote the instinct,
that's what basketball players are today. Is that fair?

Speaker 7 (11:27):
Well, I mean it's funny if you watch the Celtics
season this year, they've definitely butted heads with a few teams,
including the Lakers. I think there is more crap talk
during that last Laker Celtic game than probably the last
five years of it. Listen, Colin, Celtics nation is very
aware of your Tatum takes. They've we've heard everybody gets

(11:47):
super defensive about him because the guys having an incredible season.
First of all, I won the title last year. Yeah,
this year, he's the third best guy in the league.
He plays all five positions. Yesterday against Portland he was
playing points center with four shooters. He can guard everybody.
He's the best rebounder on the team. I think as

(12:08):
a decision maker and just as an all round player.
This is the best he's ever looked by far, and
he's the biggest reason they have a chance to win
the title again. I think last year you could definitely
make the case it was one A and one B
with him and Jalen Brown, and they had a great,
in a good way, a seesaw thing where they would
lift each other up if one guy was down.

Speaker 4 (12:28):
This year, it's been Tatum season.

Speaker 7 (12:29):
He's the best guy in the team, and other than
Sga and Jokic, she's been the most day to day
impactful guy in the league.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
And he's really.

Speaker 7 (12:35):
Durable, which I think, you know, both of us have
criticized NBA players for you play sixty five games and
you call it a season, and you take like little
sabbaticals or you leave or your nurse injuries. Tatum's out
there all the time, and I think what he has
turned into over the last couple of years has exceeded
any expectation I ever could have had. You're basically hoping

(12:58):
he could be a poor man's trant when they drafted him,
and now you're talking about somebody that has a chance
to be one of the four or five best Celtics ever.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, And I also think, unlike Duran, he's not a wanderer,
like I could see him playing for this team forever.
And then I mean, he's just that's not his personal question.
I've said this before. They look, all basketball players enter
every night with an empty canvas. They're all artists. More
than any other sport. Basketball players are artists. They spill paint,
they have bad nights, Steph Curry has horrible shooting nights.
The difference is Lebron is more Bono or jay Z

(13:29):
where he's a businessman and KD is more pearl Jam.
I'm gonna sue Ticketmaster. Tatum's more Lebron. He's happy, he's content,
he's community. It's about business and basketball. So I could
see him staying forever, and I think that's good for
the Celtics. That's just kind of More's He's more Lebron
than Durant personality wise.

Speaker 4 (13:51):
Yeah. I mean that's one of the things our documentary
is about.

Speaker 7 (13:55):
For whatever is in this franchise, the history of the
guys who played for and the things that have happen
in the banners and all the ups and downs and
read our Back and people who are dead Russell read
our Back, Tommy Heinson. Everybody's basically gone except Coozy and
sach standers. But I think the newer guys when they
come in, they really feel that there's something different about

(14:16):
the history, the way the generations interact. I think in
Tatum's case, some of that circumstance, like he ended up
on the best possible team for him with a city
that absolutely loves him, I don't know if the Durant
stuff is totally fair, because to me, Durant is just
a series. And I know I'm always a Durant defender,

(14:36):
but I think.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
It's I think it's a series of sliding doors with him.

Speaker 7 (14:40):
You could argue if they never leave Seattle and that
team is still there with with Westbrook and maybe Harden
and Abaca and an owner actually cared about the franchise
and kept them in Seattle, which is, you know, one
of the most loaded from a money standpoint cities we have.
Maybe he's still there, maybe he never leaves, maybe he

(15:01):
becomes what Tatum is going to be in Boston.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
So I think you need luck with this stuff.

Speaker 7 (15:05):
Lebron didn't have luck in Cleveland because they were always
trying to catch up with him in the two thousands.
They're always trying to make the team as good as possible,
as fast as possible, and sign free agents and make
these big trades and just constantly try to chase the
title before they were really ready. And eventually he realized
I can't win with this current setup and he jumps
to Miami. And whether you agree with that or not,

(15:27):
that was the thinking I think with Tatum. He's in
a great situation all the way through his twenties, and
that's why you stay.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah. No, it's like quarterbacks. Mahomes would win, but he
wouldn't win as much without read and vetching the one
hundred percent. Yeah, I mean it's where you land. At
least in the NFL. It feels like for quarterbacks about
eighty percent of it. I want to ask you about this.
So years ago I coined this. I was very proud
of myself. I said, I like analytics. I'm not anti analytics,

(15:54):
but I like MA analytics is that in the end,
I need to stop in a bucket. I want a man.
I want an alpha. I don't care about I think
a lot of the analytics in the NBA are great
for the regular season, but postseason basketball is circumstantial. It's
possession basketball. Make a stop. Where are you on analytics? Again?
I'm forum, but playoff basketball it's an alpha sport. That's

(16:19):
why I don't trust Okac for another year. It's why
I didn't trust Cleveland last year, and I do more
this year. The young guys are no more about men.
Where are you on basketball analytics?

Speaker 4 (16:30):
I just think everybody has them now.

Speaker 7 (16:31):
We hit a point with baseball when there was an edge,
like that's what Moneyball's about, right, and especially the Moneyball movie,
which is Jona Hill's character is a fictional person of
nine different things. And eventually everyone had the analytics, and
then in baseball, then it moved to defense, and then
it moved to like, you know, some of the health stuff,

(16:53):
and it just kept trying to evolve. I think in
basketball they're all looking at the same stuff. It's better
to shoot threes than two's. You want interchangeable athletes. I
think teams like okay See in Boston have really set
the trend for if we just have long guys everywhere
who can shoot and they're interchangeable, and that's what we're
doing for four quarters, that's the biggest advantage you can have.

(17:14):
I went to okay See Quippers last night. They were
missing Jalen Williams and Chat Holmgren and it didn't matter.
They still won.

Speaker 4 (17:20):
Yeah, and they were and they had defense.

Speaker 7 (17:23):
They could switch on every possession on offense, even though
Sga he couldn't buy a basket the whole night, but
they had just guys sending.

Speaker 4 (17:30):
Picks for him constantly.

Speaker 7 (17:32):
He's creating stuff for everybody, and they have a real identity.
And I think the Celtics do too, the Celtics. If
you play minutes for the Celtics, you have.

Speaker 4 (17:39):
To be able to shoot. That's it.

Speaker 7 (17:41):
So I think from an analytics standpoint, the analytics are
more about identity than player to player. It's like, what
are you trying to be? I think the Lakers are
struggling with that right now. I went to the Bulls
game Saturday night. By the way, Colin, you live in LA.
You realize you could come to some of these basketball
games in season ticket hold.

Speaker 4 (17:59):
We don't really see you in the arena studying the action.

Speaker 7 (18:02):
But but I went to that Bulls Laker game and
the Bulls were just like, we're running this whole time. Yep,
We're we're gonna un run down your throats and you're
gonna die by the third quarter, which the Lakers did.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
And you see that.

Speaker 7 (18:15):
And that's a team that their identity because that Luca trade.
They're trying to patch it together in the fly. I
want identities in the playoffs, and to me, that's more
important than analytics. I think Cleveland is as close to
having one as possible. But you saw last week, Kawhi
killed them, Kevin Durant killed them. What's Tatum gonna do
against them? When you see these big scoring forwards are

(18:37):
able to get whatever they want against them.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
So yeah, so I do you buy that? Though I'm
more of an identity guy than an analytics guy.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, I think. I think there are a lot of
similarities in sports. What are you? Pitchings all? I mean,
baseball is all about pitching. I got better pitching, I
win the series. I mean even shoe heel talk, I
can have a badge. It's all it's about. It's about.
But in basketball and football, what are you? Because I
think in crisis, it's just like it's just like as
a parent or as a business, Oh we've got crisis.
Everybody in the building has to know what do we

(19:06):
lean on?

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Where do we go?

Speaker 1 (19:08):
When you're playing bad teams? When the Calves are playing
the Celtics, I think the Celtics win because I think
they have a greater sense of identity. Even though the
Calves can be more efficient. I think there are times
you can argue that they've had better games against Boston.
I think Boston has a better sense of what they
are In a tie game at ninety nine with two
thirty left, and that's why they'll win. I got to

(19:30):
ask you this, Well, we'll wait.

Speaker 7 (19:32):
Our friend Risilla and I always talk about this, the
difference in regular season basketball and playoff basketball, because I
think a regular season team can have a different kind
of success than a playoffs trne if you go to
the playoffs and you're only doing one thing, and that
can work if you only see a team once, but
when you see them for two weeks, I think this
can be a real problem for the next The Knicks

(19:53):
are so Jalen Brunson centric that we're going to get
to the playoffs, and you just see that over and
over again for two weeks, you can get you to it.
The Celtics with Luca in the finals last year, the
same thing. They just they got used to how Dallas
is playing and they you know, as the series went
along it was great for them.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
So I think the ability to kind.

Speaker 7 (20:10):
Of change personas, which I think okaysee has, I think
Boston has. I think Cleveland potentially has. That's the number
one thing you want in the playoffs.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
I as a Celtic guy in the show. By the way,
it's called Celtic City episode for Great Hope airs tonight,
and that's the arrival of Larry Bird, which is yes
again again, that's in my wheelhouse.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
You know.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
I remember I watched The Michigan State when it was
Magic and Greg Kelser and it was the Sycamores from Indiana.
So that's that's right in my wheelhouse. The guy that
just turned sixty. So is there something about give me
just a taste because we all know the Larry Bird
story and and and is give me a little a
side or a little a little thought on Larry Bird

(20:55):
that don't give away too much. But but maybe you
didn't even know and then you kind of found out.

Speaker 7 (21:02):
You know, you always see this stuff about when the
guys were at their apexes, when they're at their best,
especially in documentaries. I've certainly been involved in a few
of them. I think it's a really interesting piece of
it is when the guy is banged up and passed
their prime and holding on and the thing that still
makes them great or made them great once upon a time,

(21:23):
they can still kind of go back and grab it
every once in a while. And that's like there's basically
three straight Bird era episodes coming and that last episode
is about how do you stay great when your body's
starting to break down? What does that mean? When do
you know when it's time to walk away? And I
think that's the part that I think people don't remember
now with bird Magic, all of a sudden was gone, right,

(21:47):
he had the HIV diagnosis and that was it.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
He retired.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
We never saw him hit that stage.

Speaker 7 (21:52):
Jordan left at the absolute peak and then came back
and went through it.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
With the Wizards for those last two years.

Speaker 7 (21:59):
And if you were remember, those were really interesting Wizard
seasons for him, right his knees were banged up, he
was doing it on a lot of memory and was
still awesome.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
So I think with bird And.

Speaker 7 (22:09):
Sometimes it goes terrible, you know, like and especially you
see it in football. He's seen it with Aaron Rodgers
right now the last couple of years, right, just awful,
Like it couldn't the ending couldn't be worse. I think
with the Bird one, he's got this thirty pounds back
brace and he's still able to like kick butt against
the best guys in the league during like one of
the hardest eras we've ever.

Speaker 4 (22:29):
Had for basketball.

Speaker 7 (22:30):
So I think that part, I think people are going
to be surprised how much they forgot about that section.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Okay, it's called Celtic City, it's supposed to be great.
I will watch it. I watch everything, by the way
I just saw.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
I don't believe you.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
No, No, I absolutely watch it. I'll bet you anything
all while. Well, I'm gonna start watching it tonight. I
will watch it all right, Okay, I.

Speaker 4 (22:48):
Would appreciate that.

Speaker 7 (22:49):
But we know you're not going to basketball games in LA,
so you have more time.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
I'm a bull season ticket older. I've seen Tatum play
live four times.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
Nice. The Bulls are looking good.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Well, if they get Coop, they're really good.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
A decade of playing appearances for the Bulls, that's it.
They're just they live in the play in. That's all
they want, no luxury tax play in and they're happy.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Okay, So I'm gonna one football take one. I think
we both have Maggie Harris. No, no, that's I'm gonna
save that the good stuff for later. One Aaron Rodgers take.
And I think you and I are kind of agree
on this is that there's two ways you can be
a quarterback to great quarterback. You can be Brady, which
is great and low maintenance Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson,

(23:33):
or you can be great and there is maintenance, Cam
big Ben, Aaron, that group, it never ends well. My
take is Aaron will probably go Steelers, But deep down
he's he paused because he wanted to go to the Vikings,
and I believe he wants brock Perty to demand sixty million.

(23:54):
I think he wants to go play for the Niners
because he knows the Steelers don't know offense. That's I'm
not a conspiracy. That's my conspiracy is deep down he
wants to go to the Bay with Shanahan. What is
your take on this circus that's become Aaron over the
last couple of years, his fall to the league's or
what do you land on it?

Speaker 7 (24:12):
Well, he was washed up last year as a quarterback.
I mean that's a crucial piece of this. He was terrible.
He was good if he had protection. When he protection
is one of the worst quarterbacks in the league. I
think he likes when people are talking about him. I
could see him sticking around and being kind of in
the back pocket for if a situation goes wrong with
a quarterback or if somebody gets hurt and maybe that

(24:37):
he won't officially retire and he'll wait and he'll wait,
and he'll wait.

Speaker 4 (24:40):
And see what happens.

Speaker 7 (24:41):
I honestly think Brady, even after Brady retired from the Bucks,
I think there was a world for the next two
years where he would have come back if something had
happened to a QBM one of the best teams.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
I think it's really hard for these guys to let go.

Speaker 7 (24:55):
But I mean, my big picture take on this, and
it ties in with Lebron and Brady. I think those
guys and how successful they they have been.

Speaker 4 (25:04):
Lebron his late thirties into his forties.

Speaker 7 (25:06):
And then Brady all the way to forty five, I
think it's just completely ruined how we should be seeing
the end of people's careers. We're expecting these people when
they're thirty seven, thirty eight, thirty nine to just still
be good and guess what, it's not going to happen,
Like Lebron and Brady are generational anomalies, and what's supposed

(25:27):
to happen is you're supposed to hate your late thirties
as a quarterback and you're supposed to be washed up.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
And that's just how it's supposed to go.

Speaker 7 (25:34):
And in basketball, same thing you're supposed to be Paul
George thirty four to thirty five. Guess what, Athletically, you're
gonna start slipping year after year after year, because that's
how it goes. And Lebron and Brady because they are
such maniacs and they spend three hundred and sixty five
days a year getting their bodies ready, and every decision
they make was about still continuing to dominate.

Speaker 4 (25:54):
I don't think it's replicable.

Speaker 7 (25:55):
And I think it's I think it's going to cause
more bad decisions like the Cousins kind of tracked Rogers,
you name it, some of the basketball stuff that's coming.
I just think those guys screwed it up for everybody else.
As where as that sounds.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Oh one more, take four years in a role. I
have picked a bad team to be good the next
year Washington, last year in Denver, Rams, the previous year Minnesota.
My pick is New England. I said, between the money,
the Drawden Mayot of rabel Is, you're talking about a
different level of coaching. I think Drake may is Herbert.
I think they look alike. I think they they they're

(26:31):
their size, they move give me a real Okay, forget
we know you think they'll be better, but I got that.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
No, I'm always realistic with my teams.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Okay, so I think there were nine one.

Speaker 7 (26:43):
I know you and I have both done a good
job over the years of identifying possible people like I
went twenty seven and five in my over unders before
the season last year, Like I'll never top that again.
So I must feel like I'm gonna do badly this
year because they did too well last year. But my
picks were actually good, whereas I saw your blazing five record,
it was pretty bad.

Speaker 4 (27:04):
My condolences, I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 (27:06):
I just think you know obviously your priorities were out
of whack and you just didn't care. We all look
forward to you caring more this year and trying to
re establish your dominance. But listen, the Patriots recipe is
exactly the same as Washington.

Speaker 4 (27:19):
Last year.

Speaker 7 (27:20):
The Washington thing did not make sense. They were in
Philly's division, they were in a really loaded NFC, They
had all this turnover. Oh how are they going to
do this? But then you look at it, it's like
terrible coaching staff. All of a sudden, they had a
good coaching staff. They all of a sudden had a
good quarterback the year before they didn't. They spent a
bunch of money on free agents, they did well in
the draft, and they played an easy schedule. So we

(27:42):
know what the recipe is. We look at it every year.
I think the Pats if they can nail the draft
and they can figure out left tackle and at least
one playmaker. I think when you consider how awful the
coaching staff was last year, I was one of the
worst coach I've ever had in any Boston sport. You
couldn't even believe it week to week how.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
Bad it was.

Speaker 7 (28:05):
So you have Drake, they get a couple of blue Chippers,
easy schedule, they add around, and then you throw in
Mike for Abel, who I think everybody thinks is a
top six or seven coach.

Speaker 4 (28:14):
It's reasonable to go from four wins to ten, like
we see it every year. Where I was like, oh,
who saw this coming? We always see it coming.

Speaker 7 (28:21):
This happens every year, and it's always about a schedule
and a coach and a QB.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
All right, Well, you know he doesn't return my text,
so I get him about once every seven years. Very busy.
That's Ballooney you're very busy, don't get a lot of
time with That's ballooney.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
I'm always I'm always down for a hang.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
You could invite me to any like like. I haven't
been into it yet, but I'm always available if you
want to invite me to sell.

Speaker 4 (28:45):
See, this is what I'm talking about into.

Speaker 7 (28:47):
It's the best basketball arena ever built, and it's relatively
close to where you live. And you're like, yeah, I
don't know, Maybe I'll go one of these times and
see what. See, I could go to any game I
want to. I'll pass.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
Couldn't you acknowledge I've least moved into WWE respecting it now?
That was a big bone of contention between us. It's
no longer. I've been to two.

Speaker 4 (29:07):
Has the community accepted you though?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
No.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
You said some.

Speaker 7 (29:11):
Mean things way back when there was a booger readers.

Speaker 4 (29:14):
You had that going. You look down on people, You
made people feel dumb about it. Now you're back.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
I don't know if I'm back. I'm just you know,
I'm more willing to accept that it is just what
it is. It's theater. It's fun. Just lean into it
and have fun. I was you know, it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
Well I'm trying to tell you forever. Look at this.
Two guys who used to work for the Worldwide Leader
still doing well. Funny how that happens. Huh. Everyone says
that we can't leave there. Oh no, can't leave the
Worldwide Leader. Hold Love's gonna fall part guess what We're fine,
We've done.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Okay, we've done. Okay, okay, it's called Celtic City Episode
four tonight, great hope period. This is the Larry Bird stuff.
So for if you're in your twenties thirties, you'll remember
this stuff. This will be the episode. Is this the
one you're proudest of? Is this is this? I mean,
they're all good. Obviously, the staff's obviously great. I went

(30:09):
and looked up the people working on Is this one
of these? You're really the hit episode?

Speaker 4 (30:14):
I honestly, I'm proud of all of them.

Speaker 7 (30:17):
I think this is This gets fun because this is
the first stretch of episodes where everybody we're interviewing.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
Is actually still alive.

Speaker 7 (30:25):
Help so, you know, because we're going way way back
to the fifties, sixties, and seventies, and sadly a lot
of those people are now gone.

Speaker 4 (30:33):
So this was it was nice to get you know,
some some people.

Speaker 7 (30:36):
Who are still around talking about things that they can
actually remember.

Speaker 4 (30:40):
So yeah, it's I'm really proud of it.

Speaker 7 (30:42):
And the thing about tonight is Boston versus Philly was
the best Boston rivalry of my childhood, and beating the
Sixers mattered as much as anything except the Yankees and Canadians.
I would say, yeah, I remember, so you know, it's
I had never really seen that captured in the right way,

(31:03):
so we tried to do it in this episode.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, great Sixer teams with Steve Mix and Caldwell Jones
and Andrew Tony and Mo Cheeks and doctor j George McGinnis. People.
I always say this, there may not have been a
dynasty in the seventies and early eighties until the Celtics
Lakers arrived. Seventies NBA basketball was fantastic. It was great.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
That was great, very super weird with two pre bird Bird.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
Rick Berry was pre bird Bird, grumpy, great shooter forward
who didn't get along with some people. But it was
a different time. But he was pre bird bird, sixth
eight guy that could shoot right.

Speaker 7 (31:38):
And there was a lot of mystique for people like
us back then because none of the games were ever on, right,
That's right. So you followed the league through the basketball
handbooks and basketball cards and Sports Illustrated and newspapers, and
every once in a while there would be a game on.
But like going the games in Boston in the seventies,
David Thompson, they maybe came once twice a year, you know,

(31:58):
George Gervin, these guys, you didn't go the one time
they were in town. You never saw them again. And
now everything's so available. Now you can follow the NBA
and you don't even need to go to games or
watch games. You could follow it on social media and
you know, on Twitter. So I'm a nostalgic for that
era too, because it really you really had to care

(32:19):
and you really had to follow what was going on.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
I was the only kid in the neighborhood that collected
NBA cards and not baseball cards. So you know, I
can look at you. I go back to Elmore Smith
Laker Center number three. I go way back Bill Simmons, CEO,
the Ringer and the Founder as well. Celtic City episode
four tonight, Great Hole periods the Larry Bird issue. It
airs tonight on Max. New episode focuses on the arrival

(32:42):
of Larry Bird that as much watch as always. You know,
I appreciate when you stop by your busy guy, I
appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
I appreciate it too.

Speaker 7 (32:50):
And I don't come in because you do the desk
that's higher than the guest chair. And I don't appreciate
the power play by you, so I'd rather do it
on simm But great to see you.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Totally get it all. Bill Simmons. How was a long
interview for us. We don't do that very often, but
there's a lot of stuff to cover. He's obviously an
interesting cat, and I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, I think
about that. They had that absolutely awful Len Bias tragedy.
That could have been another you know, he was out
of Maryland. If you didn't see Len Bias playing college

(33:17):
number thirty four, there was just nothing like it. He
has a little Dominique Wilkins, little David Thompson, just wildly.
If I could compare him to a football player, be
Adrian Peterson, like just bigger, stronger than other players of
his generation. Just didn't look the same or play the same.
The tragedy in his early death or they could have
had another long run we all need routines that bring

(33:39):
us calm in a chaotic world. For millions of Americans
arming their simply Safe home security systems, the moment of peace.
Go to simplysafcolin dot com fifty percent off a new
system with a professional monitoring plan. There is no safe
like simply Safe. Thanks to Bill Simmons Bruce Pearl earlier,
we take a break updates next with J Mack Live
and l.

Speaker 8 (34:00):
One More Herd. The Herd streams twenty four hours a day,
seven days a week within the iHeartRadio app. Search Herd
to listen live or on demand whenever you like.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Here we go on a Wednesday Baseball Commission, Rob Manfred
in one hour as the Major League Baseball season obviously
started in Tokyo with the Dodgers Cubs, but it starts
tomorrow as well. Major League Baseball. The team's operating going
forward starting tomorrow, and Rob Manfred stops buy in Los Angeles.
It is the Herd.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
J Mack.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
It was interesting, So you know, you can you can
add new members. One of my favorite bands of all
time was the Eagles, right right, okay, and that you
can add people to the band. But you know, Don
Henley had the voice like in the end, you can
add a lot of bad members, and the Warriors can
add Jimmy Butler, and Jimmy Butler makes them better. But

(34:57):
it is Steph's team. And last night was a great
exam because Jimmy Butler returned to Miami, to the Heat
where he got him to the finals, and he has
been great. He has been great when Butler and Steph
play together, Warriors are fifteen and three, but last night's
the difference between the two. Steph didn't play, Jimmy did,
and the offense dried up. The starters for the Warriors

(35:21):
at half had ten total points. And Lebron and Steph
are transformational all time players, Top ten players. Luca got
traded for a reason. Remember Lebron left Miami on his terms.
Jimmy was traded out of town. Right. So Luca is

(35:41):
a great score, but the team's not as good defensively
because he didn't share the ball as much. And in
the NBA, if I don't touch it, I'm not playing
d On the other end, and Steph between iq EQ
off ball on ball, scoring, culture, building, leadership. I love
Jimmy Butler, but he's combative. He's a bouncer around the

(36:02):
league guy. He's a super grinder. He's a more offensive,
least skilled Draymond Green. But Steph's the entire package. Lebron's
the entire package. You can love Keith Richards. It's mixed band.
You can love Butler. It's Steph's band. You can love Luca.
It's Lebron's band. And you saw it last night. Is

(36:24):
that without Steph? This looked like the team pre Butler,
nobody could score. The movement's not as good, they're not
talking as much. And the Heat in the MAVs. Listen,
both got to finals, right, The Heat got to the finals.
But when they did with Jimmy Butler, Jimmy was overwhelmed.
And Luca got to a finals. But do you remember

(36:47):
that finals? He was out of shape, he was gassed.
Lebron James with Matthew Dellavedova can lose a finals. He's
not out of shape, he's not gassed. He just doesn't
have enough combatants on his side. I can absolutely love
Jimmy Butler, and you can add players to teams even

(37:07):
like B plus A minus. Guys, I've said this. Everybody's
got this. Hey, Luca guarantees this Luca gets worked on
the defensive end. We talked about this lit Rick Buker yesterday.
When Lebron sat out and he didn't play with Luca,
they only lost. They were getting boat raced by bad
teams because Lucas sort of reverts back to who Luca

(37:28):
is and why it wasn't Noah's great chemistry with the Mavericks.
Guys are sitting around watching, they don't touch the ball.
And this was Buker yesterday talking about the Lebron Luca dynamic.

Speaker 9 (37:42):
When Lebron stepped out, it became the Lucas show, and
it looked like Dallas. And the reason that you had
everybody defending as hard as they were because they were
touching the ball. They knew that if they ran the floor,
the ball is going to be passed ahead and I
might get a fast break layup.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
And that doesn't happen much when Lebron's out. So it's interesting.
I had said this. I gave baseball about fifteen years off.
I didn't talk much about it. The game got really slow,
there was no urgency, the emergence of the iPhone. People
are distracted and the stars were not in the right places.

(38:22):
Otani was down with the Angels who feel invisible here
in La County, which neighbors Orange County. And then Bryce
Harper goes to the Nats, and Aaron Judge becomes a star,
and Otawni is now a Dodger, and all of a
sudden you look up and baseball speeds the game up.
The defensive shift is eliminated, the bases are bigger, there's
more base runners, more stolen bases, and baseball the last

(38:44):
two years ratings up, attendance up. So Rob Manfred as
a commissioner of baseball on in one hour. He's always
got a battle the purists. Baseball is like half amusement
park half museum, and the museum crowd, the old school people,
they're grumpy. The sky is falling with any change. So
yesterday was a great example of that. So Jeff Passon

(39:06):
was on. He's a very popular baseball writer for the
other place. He was on a podcast and he said,
you know, baseball is in an incredible place right now.
They cannot have a work stoppage and all the steam
heads come out of the woodwork. Nobody can compete. Oh
good lord. The minute the Dodgers Yankees make a World Series,

(39:31):
the sky is falling, crowd, nobody can compete. We need
a salary cap. Baseball is never going to have a
salary cap. Union's too strong. And you know, nobody is
repeated in baseball to win the World Series since two thousand.
That is the longest streak of any pro league in
America and the longest streak in baseball history. In fact,
last year I looked it up this morning, the Guardians, Orioles, Royals, Tigers,

(39:54):
and Brewers all made the playoffs. In fact, Detroit want
to playoffs series. They're all on the bottom half of
the league in payroll. The league's never had more parody,
never but speed up the game of the pitch clock.
The purists didn't like it, the change in extra innings,
the larger bases, good god. They suggested the gold knit

(40:17):
bat used once a game where a star can bat
out of order. People freaked out. Baseball's did an incredibly,
incredibly healthy place. But no sport has more ninnies and
whiners than baseball. I looked it up this morning. So
you had last year, you had six guys sign a
hundred plus million dollar contract. Six guys they must have

(40:39):
been all Dodgers. Nope, one was a Yankee, one was
a Dodger, one was a Diamondback, one was a mat
one was a Red Sox, one was San Francisco, six
different places. They haven't had a repeat champ. But the
minute the Dodgers and the Yankees get in the sky
is falling. The purists are outraged. You have parody over

(41:00):
the sport. Now, I will say this Dodger team is insane,
but we've all had somebody in our social circle. Hopefully
you've eliminated them where you know, you go up and say, man,
what a beautiful day, and they say, well, it could
rain tomorrow. That is baseball purest. The sport's great. There's
all sorts of bottom payroll team. I mean in the

(41:22):
NBA you have eight teams that feel like perpetually. The Wizards,
they're just not watchable. They had John Wall and they
weren't watchable. They can't compete. They had Beal and Wall
in their prime. They can't compete in the East. So
I mean, yeah, the a situation's ugly. But the NFL
several years ago had the Raiders change where they were playing.

(41:44):
The Chargers moved they had three to Saint Louis, moved
out to La. There was a real bumpy two year
stretch of the NFL where like franchises were moving all
over the country. Yes, the a situation is a mess,
but this idea, it is just you know, they gave
baseball fifteen years off the first eight years here. In
the last eight at the other place, I just didn't

(42:05):
talk it much. Last year and a half, baseball has
been unbelievable. All the stars in the right place. The
game is faster, more base runners, more stolen bases, more activity.
In fact, one of my questions now is I think
there's parody in baseball. The place where you lack parody
is pitcher and hitter. Not enough teams can hit two
sixty five to two seventy as a team because the

(42:27):
mound pitchers are bigger, stronger, faster, throwing one hundred miles
an hour, and batters, even good ones, can be overwhelmed
in this sport. That's where you lack parody, the pitchers
against the hitters. The sport's fine. And as I've said,
who pays forty percent of baseball's bills, TV networks, they
don't care about parody. They want six really good teams,

(42:49):
preferably in New York, Atlanta, Chicago, LA, and Philadelphia and
maybe Houston. That's where they want the good teams, and
that's where they are right now. So uh, Jay, We've
got a lot of stuff.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
You know.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
It's interesting. People are pins and needles on what Aaron
Rodgers is gonna do and and I've said he's a
slightly better version of Russell Wilson. So Russell Wilson signed
with the Giants yesterday and it landed with an absolute
nothing burger. WHOA, I don't think I that is a
third to fourth place team right.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
Well, certainly, But is it possible that the Giants got
win that Hey, Shador Sanders ain't gonna be there with
three guys he's on, he's gonna be gone. You better
grab a quarterback before you get nothing. Right, What if
Russell Wilson went to I don't know, another team, then
they would have no quarterback at all. So I think
some draft stuff leaked out and that's why.

Speaker 4 (43:38):
The Patriots went and got Digs. Is Travis Hunter gonna be.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
There at four Colin?

Speaker 10 (43:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah, So the Patriots probably heard Travis Hunter is gone
at four because the Giants are gonna have to select
him because the Browns are taking a quarterback. Yeah, yeah,
so you know there's nobody can keep a secret. I mean,
let's be honest. In the NFL, you get close to
the draft, you got you got scouts that have worked
for multiple teams. You got people who have been fired
right like, so you can't keep secrets anywhere. If you

(44:05):
want to keep a secret, don't say anything to anybody.
So I think what happened yesterday's a bit of a domino.
The Giants find out Cleveland's taking a quarterback. The Patriots
find out, oh, we better than signed staff On Diggs
because we're not getting Travis Hunter, right, That's probably what's happening.

Speaker 5 (44:21):
And Neighbors and Travis Hunter is kind of spicy on
the outside.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
For the New York Giants.

Speaker 5 (44:25):
They got a quarterback who just throws deep balls. That's
all Russ does. He doesn't want to go over the middle.
He just wants to throw the go routes to Pickens
and Pittsburgh member and it worked. Now you get Neighbors
and Hunter. That's moderately interesting. With Brian Dable as your
head car right.

Speaker 8 (44:39):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and noon eastern non am Pacific.

Speaker 11 (44:44):
Hey, Steve Covino and I'm Rich Davis and together we're
Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio.

Speaker 12 (44:49):
You could catch us weekdays from five to seven pm
Eastern two to four Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and
of course the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Why should you listen to Covino and Rich.

Speaker 12 (44:58):
We talk about everything, sports, relationships, what's going on in
the world.

Speaker 11 (45:02):
We have a lot of fun talking about the stories
behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture,
stories that well other shows don't seem to have the
time to discuss.

Speaker 12 (45:11):
And the fact that we've been friends for the last
twenty years and still work together.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
I mean that says something, right, So check us out.

Speaker 11 (45:17):
We like to get you involved too, take your phone calls,
chop it up.

Speaker 12 (45:21):
As they say, I'd say, the most interactive show on
Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Interactive show on planetar.

Speaker 11 (45:26):
Be sure to check out Cavino and Rich live on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app from five to
seven pm Eastern, two to four Pacific, and if you
miss any of the live show, just search Covin on
Rich wherever you get your podcasts, and of course on
social media.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
That's Covino and rich.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Ah. Here we go. It's our two all fired up
live in Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
It's the herd.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Wherever you may be and however you may be listening.
Thanks for making out as part of your day, just
lying through shows. Rob Manfred, Baseball Commissioner, on yesterday. Baseball
season weirdly, you know, kind of starts tonight and then
with the tournament, so it's weird. I don't remember that
being the case where usually you would start baseball yesterday.

(46:06):
So I don't love like opening night and necessarily being
on March Madness night because I want to watch John
Calipari and Duke in Arizona and whatever. I will say this.
There's a story this morning that the Cleveland Browns, with
a number two pick, will not take Shadour Sanders. Adam
Schefter says they're probably gonna get Abdul Carter, who's a
super good player, excellent kid at Penn State, probably the

(46:28):
second most gifted player in the draft to Travis Hunter.
And this is not a shot at Schefter. I think
it could be a smoke screen. You get lied to
a lot in the last three or four weeks before
the draft. I've been told that for years. But what
is interesting is if Kevin Stefanski did pass on Shudour Sanders.

(46:49):
Now Aaron Rodgers dropped in the draft, and so did
Dan Marino. It can happen to anybody, Lamar Jackson, it
can happen to anybody, right, So, but he is a
pocket quarter back who's accurate and won't be very expensive.
That is what Stefanski wants. So if it's right in
his lap and he doesn't take him, that does make

(47:11):
you wonder if if there's a real and then and
then after that the Patriots don't need the Giants could
use a quarterback, and if they passed on him, like
what are we looking at here? Maybe New Orleans goes
and gets him. So I my take on Shadeur is
to be as that accurate with no running game and

(47:32):
a mostly abysmal offensive line for two years is really
hard to pull off. Seventy four percent accuracy is really
hard to pull off. It'd be one thing if you're
Will Howard and Ohio State and you've got two first
round receivers, two running backs who will get drafted early,
and above average old line. That's a different ballgame. It's
different if Quinn Ewers did that at Texas. We're talking

(47:55):
battle line, no run game, seventy four percent completion percentage.
That's I'm impressive. So yesterday Julian Edelman talked about what
he worries about was Shade or Sanders.

Speaker 13 (48:06):
My number one thing with Shador is can he break
down the protections. He's not a mobile guy. He's a
pocket passer. We all keep on saying he's a pocket passer.
So for me, if I'm a general manager, if I'm
a team, I want to see how good he is
with his protections. It's ultimately going to come down to
the offensive coordinator he gets paired up with and that

(48:27):
relationship and how he handles protections.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Okay, so again, I like him more than I think
draft people do. J McK and I don't see him
plumbing in the draft, but Marino did. And he's an
all timer, and so is Aaron Rodgers. He's an all timer. So,
and I've said this, there's only two guys in this
draft who I think are would be great in any draft,

(48:53):
Travis Hunter and Abdul Carter. I do think there's only
one player in this draft that will turn around a
franchise and that is the kid cam Ward who would
go to Tennessee. I think he would start and be
a dynamic player. I don't know if Shidore is that.
Could Shadur be more Geno Smith. He's accurate, he sits
in the pocket, good guy. When he gets a decent coach,

(49:15):
he can win games, maybe get you to the playoffs.
That could be his comp I mean, he's not Joe Burrow.
He's not running around like Lamar Josh Allen.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
He's not that.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
But he is a pocket guy. But pocket guys golf
succeeds Burrows. Mostly that Gino got to the playoffs. He's
mostly that. Okay, So we said they'd call it the
dog Days this summer in baseball, which starts tonight, take
out the Tokyo Series Cubs Dodgers. But it's a little
dog days in the NBA where teams like Boston and
Denver and Cleveland that have roster rhythm for several years

(49:44):
that kind of reducing minutes. The Lakers are different ballgame.
Austin Rivers, Lebron and Luca played twelve games got a
Brooklyn Field a few years ago. They played basketball together
and they're very clearly not the same team when Lebron's
not on the floor. And with that we bring in
Rachel Nichols, Fox Sports NBA analyst doing that since the
early nineties, and she is now joining us. How can
you be covering the NBA that long years old?

Speaker 10 (50:07):
Exactly? I started as a child.

Speaker 14 (50:09):
No, I started in college because what I got to
do is I went to Northwestern and I was a
stringer for the Washington Post and I got to cover
the nineties Bowls as a nineteen and twenty year old
and just kept going since.

Speaker 10 (50:22):
So it was a pretty great ride.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
You and Mike Greenberg, I think, yeah, exactly, Yea, he
covered exactly. So we said this about the Lakers you
watched it last night. Is that Lebron's first half was,
by Lebron's standard three quarters rough, maybe in his worst
half ever as a pro offensively, Yes, but I do
think they're in a weird spot. They could get to
a two seed. They could also fall to a playing game.

(50:44):
They play the Rockets, Thunder Warriors at Chicago's tricky. That
team can shoot. Yeah, I look at him and I
think to myself, they have to play hard the rest
of the way. Yeah.

Speaker 10 (50:54):
Absolutely, Look, the offense is still working itself out.

Speaker 14 (50:57):
They completely changed the way they played once Luca Dacic
came into town, which is exactly what they should have done,
but it takes a while. I am not worried about
the offense. Lebron is still working his way back from injury.
They're all still learning how to play together. They are
going to be fine. Teams pick their poison with Luca.
They have to decide what to do, and usually teams
end up blitzing him, which leaves someone OUN's open, and

(51:18):
he's a great passer, so they will figure it out offensively.

Speaker 10 (51:21):
The issue is the defense.

Speaker 14 (51:22):
And frankly, we had Rob Polinka sit up on the
stage when Lukadancic was introduced and tell us this, not
that we didn't know, but I'm saying even the Lakers
understood that once you trade away Ad, you have a
front court defensive problem. And they were not able to
fix it before the trade deadline, and they are going
to try to fix it this summer. But there is
a limitation of how far you can go if you

(51:43):
have that kind of hole. And it's great that they
played so well defensively in the weeks after the Luka
Doncic trade, but that required one hundred and fifty percent
effort from every guy every minute on the floor. That
is not sustainable. And it was also more of a
swarming sort of switchy defense.

Speaker 10 (52:00):
Guys figure that out.

Speaker 14 (52:01):
The more tape they have on you, it's leaving a
lot of guys open and leaving themselves open to exploitive matchups.

Speaker 10 (52:06):
And by the way, they're letting guys shoot threes right
and left. That's going to bite you in the playoffs too.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Yeah, it is. For the record, Jared Vanderbilt didn't have
to score last night. He's still wildly valuable. Like Jared
Vanderbilt is like wildly important for this basketball team.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Jaxon Hayes, I mean, yes, you know it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
I got an NBA guy who I have deep respect for,
Tom Tolbert texted me yesterday. He said, Hey, be careful
about your cynicism of OKC. He said, here's stats that
are really important. They lead the league in creating turnovers
and are last in committing them huge, which, by the way,

(52:44):
shows you a maturity which is beyond the years of
a team. They're a smart basketball team. When you talk
to people in the league, because I have questions about
their young players in road playoff environments. What are the
people around the league thing?

Speaker 10 (52:57):
Oh, they think they're for real for sure.

Speaker 14 (52:59):
And look, there is the fact that this group of
guys has not gotten past the second round. And therefore,
when the bright lights come on of the conference finals
and the NBA Finals, are they going to be able
to match up against the teams that have so much experience?

Speaker 10 (53:11):
I mean the Boston Celtics.

Speaker 14 (53:12):
I mean they've been in the finals what three of
the last four years. I mean, it's just they're playing
against teams in some cases that have a lot more
of know how of how to do those situations. That
being said, number one overall offensively, number four defensively, this
is a team that knows how to play together. They've
been playing together a long time. They have an excellent
Coach of the Year coach, and they are ready. They

(53:34):
have the MVP candidate. I mean, they really feel like
they are ready to make a move, and people around
the league have an enormous amount of respect for them,
especially since the rest of the West, as you've just
pointed out with the Lakers, it's a crapshoot. Yeah, I
mean in the East, you can say, hey, the Celtics
and the Cavaliers. They've really separated themselves and the anyone
else would be upset.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Nick third and they don't match.

Speaker 14 (53:54):
Up with them, but anyone else if they made it
to the conference finals, it would be an upset.

Speaker 10 (53:58):
You can't say that in the West.

Speaker 14 (53:59):
I would, you know, right in the Thunder, just because
they deserve that respect after what they've done this season.
It could be one of what six teams opposite them.
A lot is going to depend on the bracket and
who they face in the conference finals. The Thunder if
they do make it there, as we expect, that's going
to determine if they get to the finals and can
really make it on that stage.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
So when Adam Silver showed up on the show and
I really like I can new Adam once a week,
I think you're so smart, I did push back. I said,
you guys get so paralyzed by trades memo. Everybody loves trade,
love it. By the way their foot show, Hey Angels, Dodgers,
Yes it feels lobsided. Look at your numbers.

Speaker 4 (54:36):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
So my take is I'm watching k D last night.
He's auditioning. He's unbelievable and by the way he wanted
to make sure Boston new Yeah, I can score on
your defense, and your defense is unbelievable. He's averaged thirty
seven a game, shooting sixty percent from the floor in
the last three games. So and it's interesting about the playoffs.

(54:58):
Not only do I love the playoffs for their intensity,
but they do show you very clear weaknesses.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
Of the Knicks.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Yeah, or the Bucks or the Lakers. I think KD Now.
J Mack disagrees. I think he's going to have a
huge market of really good teams. What do you hear?

Speaker 10 (55:20):
I completely agree with you.

Speaker 14 (55:21):
Sorry, J Mack, but you know, look, you and I
were two of the people who ten years ago were saying, man,
Katie's game, it's going to age well in this league.

Speaker 10 (55:29):
And guess what I mean. It's stunding insight, but we
were right.

Speaker 14 (55:33):
Kevin Durant is still extremely valuable to have. And there
are of course a lot of people back analyzing the
trade with Brooklyn and saying that Phoenix gave up too
much for him, and they did give up a lot
for him, But the fact that it hasn't been a
more successful run there for Kevin Durant has really largely been.

Speaker 10 (55:49):
About the Bradley Beal trade.

Speaker 14 (55:50):
It is about how handcuffed the team has been in
his time there because Bradley Beal was acquired and his
salary and his no trade clause and the lack of
flexibility to build the roster around KD.

Speaker 10 (56:01):
And Book the way they need to be built.

Speaker 14 (56:03):
And Bradley Beal is a great guy, and he is
a good basketball player. I think his skill has been
sort of shaded by all the contract stuff around him.

Speaker 10 (56:10):
He is a good basketball player.

Speaker 14 (56:11):
He does not sit with Kevin Durant and Devin Book
doesn't work, and in fact, not only just moving him
to the bench, which they have done.

Speaker 10 (56:18):
When he doesn't play and he's out hurt.

Speaker 14 (56:20):
Right now, this team is thirteen and three when he
doesn't play and the other two do. Prior to losing
to the Celtics the other night, which of course most
people lose to the Celtics these days, they were four
and oh, including beating the Cavaliers without Bradley Beal. So,
to me, one of the big questions of where does
KD go this summer. It could be the Miami who
wants him, It could be the Rockets who want him.

Speaker 10 (56:42):
However, maybe there's.

Speaker 14 (56:44):
A voice of he could stay in Phoenix if they
can get Bradley Beal to accept and want a trade
and another team to want him with that deal. But
brad said some interesting things recently. He said, look, in
the middle of the season, there's too much going on.
I didn't want to do a trade at the deadline.

Speaker 10 (56:59):
He said.

Speaker 14 (57:00):
This summer, you can lay everything out and get a
better sense of what you want and where you want
to go. And if Phoenix is messaging him right now,
we are not playing you.

Speaker 10 (57:10):
At some point.

Speaker 14 (57:11):
Bradley Bial wants to play basketball, sure, and so he
is going to look around a little more than he
has the past couple of years and say, Okay, maybe
this team wants me and I want to go play
for them. If they get that flexibility and freedom, I'd
be curious at least what the possibilities are. And they're
few because they've traded away all of their draft picks,
but they are few. If you could keep Kevin Durant

(57:33):
and Booker together, because I do think they play great together.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yeah, the you know, as watching Cooper flag plays tonight,
and I was telling people, you're much younger, so you
remember some of this and being on the East Coast.
You remember a lot of it because I was a
West Coast kid and loved the Big East pack ten
basketball didn't care. I was a Big.

Speaker 10 (57:52):
East but it is Georgetown DC girl.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Yeah. Basically, if you're twenty, you're under thirty five years old,
you don't remember what college basketball in the NBA used
to have this symbiotic relationship. You had about nine Cooper
Flags a year that you loved in college went to
the NBA and were really good immediately. Now Cooper Flag
is an outlier where like could could he be a

(58:16):
second team All Stars? And he may be in the
East if he landed somewhere. Is that last year's draft
was wildly international and nobody can name the first eight
players drafted the I mean the NBA. Do you think
the NBA? And it's kind of a theoretical question, but
I think it's so fascinating because he is so good.

(58:38):
Do you think the NBA realizes deep down that they
thought they could do it with themselves with the G League?
And part of this ratings regression, it's not politics. We
need college basketball as our feeder system. Look at the
ratings for women's and men's March Madness it's crazy.

Speaker 10 (58:56):
No, it was great in those days for the NBA.
The problem is they don't control it.

Speaker 14 (58:59):
You know, they could possibly they're talking about lowering the
age limit again back to eighteen.

Speaker 10 (59:04):
They could possibly decide.

Speaker 14 (59:05):
I've always said, why not make it twenty as long
as there is a feasible route in the G League
for guys who are turning eighteen to make money, because
you don't want to impact these guys' ability to be professionals.

Speaker 10 (59:15):
The rest of the world.

Speaker 14 (59:16):
Gets to work as late teenagers in eighteen, nineteen twenty
year olds. You don't want to limit these guys' ability
to earn a living. But if there is a route
for that, it doesn't have to be the NBA where
they earn a living. If there is a route for
them to play professional basketball, both internationally and here in
the US, and you raise the age limit to twenty,
you would get more developed players entering the NBA.

Speaker 10 (59:39):
You'd be able to scout.

Speaker 14 (59:40):
Them better because you can see guys like Cooper Flag
coming a mile away. But there's a ton of guys
who maybe were scouted one way and they turned into
another way. Yanna said it to Koupo. Nobody thought he
was going to be him. No one thought that Nikola
Yukich was going to be who.

Speaker 10 (59:53):
He's turned out to be.

Speaker 14 (59:54):
So there are still guys who if they had another
year or two to develop, especially in college American players,
you'd be able to know who they were more and
they would be delivered to the NBA as more developed products.

Speaker 10 (01:00:05):
I am in the minority.

Speaker 14 (01:00:06):
I am the only one I hear saying raise the
age limit, don't lower it. But that is how I
feel in terms of that question you just asked.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
So I proposed it this week that there are solvable
and unsolvable problems. The NFL had the concussion issue, it
was solvable, pay attention to it, don't roll your eyes
at it and change the rules. Steroids solvable, more testing,
and then there are unsolvable issues. Football is a violent game.

(01:00:36):
Guys get hurt, seriously, that's just the way it works.
I think load management is a bit more solvable because
the young players like playing, and also we're not going
to give you awards unless you play them in the
mount games. I think tanking's unsolvable. I think it is
the unsolvable issue because in March, if I can get

(01:00:58):
Cooper flag, one of my guys have a chess cold.

Speaker 10 (01:01:01):
Yeah, interesting, you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
I'm sorry. But the league, if you look at the
greatest players ever, they've often ended up on teams. San
Antonio was planning on Wemby three years ago.

Speaker 14 (01:01:12):
So I mean, look, tanking is not solvable. You were
one hundred percent correct because look the Spurs. How they
ended up getting Tim Duncan was that David Robinson had
an injury, and then he just seemed to have an
injury the entire year, and.

Speaker 10 (01:01:24):
Then they got Tim Duncan.

Speaker 14 (01:01:25):
In the next year, Tim Duncan and David Robinson played together. Man,
that's amazing. So it's not solvable in terms of we're
done with it. But I will say the league has
gotten itself into more trouble because of the way the
contract situations have worked out, and they've made efforts on
the other end. They've tried to flatten lottery odds. But
the truth is that in twenty sixteen, because ownership around

(01:01:45):
the league didn't like that Kevin Durant went to the
Golden State Warriors, they invented the Supermax, and the Supermax
was supposed to get guys to stay with the teams
that drafted them more. The problem with that, though, was
that you had uneven situations around the league because you
had teams that just weren't in the right draft at
the right time, and your team and owners felt bad
about that. So then they created all these aprons. There's

(01:02:07):
the first apron, there's the second apron. Guy Fieri is
apparently managing the NBA. I mean, there's all of this
stuff that restricts teams and movement and trades and all
of the other things that the only really viable way
to start from scratch and rethink.

Speaker 10 (01:02:21):
Your team is to tank.

Speaker 14 (01:02:23):
And in fact, Matt Ishbia, the owner of the Phoenix Suns,
just gave a really good interview and he talked about, Hey,
we are never going to do that here. We are
never going to clear the decks and tank. We want
to win every year. We are going to try to
win every year. And that's great, and fans applauded it.
Everyone around the league, in every front office you talk to,
guys were sort of sending me quotes, sending me.

Speaker 10 (01:02:43):
Quotes from that article. Hahaha. New owner syndrome.

Speaker 14 (01:02:46):
He doesn't get it yet, doesn't he know?

Speaker 10 (01:02:49):
It's literally the only way to do it.

Speaker 14 (01:02:51):
We saw it with the Houston Rockets a few years ago,
and now they're number two in the West. I mean,
we've seen it over and over. So the league has
contributed to creating this problem because owners want to stop
themselves from overspending. And then it's not fair over there.
It's not fair that way. It's not fair that way.

Speaker 10 (01:03:07):
It's not the league office's fault.

Speaker 14 (01:03:09):
I think the ownership has to take a look at
itself in the mirror, at the situation that they have
put themselves in, and why so many of them have
to tank and then have terrible ticket sales for a
couple of years in a row.

Speaker 10 (01:03:20):
I mean, it's just cyclical.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Yeah. By the way, the last three minutes of Rachel Nichols,
it should be played over and over and over because
that is the truth in all of this. And I
said to Adam when he was on their show, I said, Adam,
you're paralyzed by trades. Kevin Durant and the Warriors were
the highest rated team. Of course you couldn't turn them off. Yes,
it made people briefly uncomfortable. So did Shaq and Kobe.

(01:03:44):
Shaq and Kobe made people uncomfortable. For the record, Michael
won six mbps and went six and six in the finals.
Bill Russell, as the league was being formed and popularized,
won eleven titles. Dynasties yukon women's and men's basketball. They're
not the worst thing.

Speaker 10 (01:04:00):
No, they're popular.

Speaker 14 (01:04:01):
Dynasties sell casual fans get invested in them. But it's
not a front office issue. Adam Silver can't solve that
when he has owners around the league at the owners
meetings saying that's not fair, that's not fair.

Speaker 10 (01:04:14):
Let's make a new rule. That's not fair.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
The other thing that made Katie work in Golden State
was Steph was on a cheap deal because of his injuries.

Speaker 10 (01:04:22):
It was such a crazy confluence it was.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
It was a complete confluence of events. He shouldn't have
been under that contract.

Speaker 14 (01:04:29):
The salary cap blew up in a big bubble. The
way it's not going to this time around. They're going
to distribute the TV money more evenly. Over the years,
there were so many things about Katie going to the
Warriors that were not replicatable, and yet they made all
these rules, and then all those rules created new problems,
and then that's now created this problem. So again, I
don't think you're ever going to solve tanking Spurs David Robinson,

(01:04:52):
Tim Duncan. But I do think that they have gotten
themselves into this pickle more where it is the only
route now, and that is creating an issue for fair
gus who.

Speaker 10 (01:05:00):
Want to watch good basketball games.

Speaker 14 (01:05:02):
I mean, you watch some of these games right now
and it's like you can't even pick out there's so
many two way guys on the floor, you can't even
pick out who's playing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
That's why I watched the Celtic Suns last night. Tatum's
actually hurt, which is never hurt. But it was fun
because it was like KD was playing, like he was
showing off to the league.

Speaker 14 (01:05:17):
Well, the Sons have none of their own first round
draft picks till twenty you know, through twenty thirty one,
so they don't have to tank. They can't tank. It
doesn't help them at all, helps the Houston Rockets. So
they're going to put it all out there in Boston's
getting ready for a championship run. But there aren't that
many of those games right now, Colin. There are the
games the other way around a lot of the.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Time, all right, almost professorial, just just you should have
grabbed a Dais sat up there and told the league
how it works. All getting smarter. Rachel Nichols, thank you
so much. Colin live in LA. It's the hurt