Jason reacts live after the Indiana Pacers beat the New York Knicks in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Finals. He discusses Tyrese Haliburton’s incredible game and Pascal Siam’s strong play out-dueling Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns. Then he discusses how the Pacers could potentially match up against the Oklahoma City Thunder in the NBA Finals.
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(02:02):
welcome to hoops tonight. You're at the volume heavy Tuesday. Everybody.
Hope all of you guys are having a great start
to your week. Well, the Indiana Pacers, as expected, ended
up going up three to one on the Knicks tonight.
Kind of a wired and wired type of game. There's
a brief mix.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Push early, a little bit of a.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Attempting push from the Knicks late, but the Pacers consistently
demonstrated themselves to be the better team tonight, as they
have for the majority of this series. We're gonna break
that game down from the perspective of both teams. We're
going to talk Jackson has a theory that he's higher
on the Indiana Pacers and their chances against Oklahoma City
than I am. So I thought that would make fun
grounds for a debate, So we'll have a little debate
(02:39):
in the middle section of the show as we talk
about a potential NBA Finals matchup between the Pacers and
the Thunder, and then at the tail end of the show,
we'll take five to ten minutes of questions. Any big
picture questions you guys have regarding either series, we can
get to them at that point. And then when we
wrap up here tonight, we'll be heading over to playback again.
That's playback dot TV slash oops tonight. Hey, callers, we
(03:00):
watch film. It's informal. We just have fun. We just
talk hoops. It's a fun little community we're building over there,
so make sure you guys follow us over there when
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(03:22):
that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media
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keep dropping mail back questions in the chat so we
can get to them at the tail end of the
show tonight. All right, let's talk some basketball. So one
of the things to credit the Nicks one of the
things that they did at the end of Game three
which I have not seen often in this postseason run,
(03:43):
aside from Game three, ironically of the Cavs series, where
Max Strews started. You know, he had been the Calves
had been in intentionally denying Tyrese Haliburton throughout the series,
but Strews just did a way better job of it
in Game three, and it kind of just threw the
the Pacers out of whack and they had a really
weird night. But for the most part, there's like a
(04:03):
pace and an energy and a flow to Indiana's offense
that is pretty consistent. Like one of the biggest theories
that I leaned on in terms of me picking Indiana
to beat the Knicks, I wasn't sure necessarily which team
had the higher ceiling, like when things were really going
well for either team. It kind of felt coin flippy
(04:24):
to me. But I just trusted the Pacers to more
frequently be at their best than I trusted the knixt team,
and that made it a relatively easy pick for me
relative to some of the other more, you know, kind
of confusing series that we've seen in this postseason run.
But to the next credit. In Game three, in that
fourth quarter, we saw a Pacers offense that didn't look
(04:45):
like the Pacers offense, as the ball wasn't moving around there.
They lacked that pace and flow in transition kind of
turned into some iffy isolation possessions and it just kind
of felt like they lost their character a little bit,
and Tyre's Halliburton had zero interest in letting that phenomenon
extend into the start of Game four, immediately coming out
(05:06):
the gates, bringing that energy, bringing that flow. I thought
stan Van Gundy had an interesting point in the broadcast
talking about how the point guard is the guy that
really pushes his team to run, not necessarily the coach. Now,
I don't necessarily agree with that assertion, because we've seen
coaches make teams run more. I mean, frankly this year,
just Kenny Atkinson and what he did with the Cavs
(05:28):
got them to run more than they did in years past.
But I do think it's a combination of both. And
I think the way I would kind of like tweak
that take from stan Van Gundhy is I would say
your point guard can supersede, or I would even say
your point guard, you're superstar. Your foundational offensive folkrum can
overcome any sort of coaching roster circumstance and get guys
(05:52):
to run, and get guys to take on their identity
as an offensive player. That's why over the years, we
saw so many many different types of players thrive alongside
Steph Curry, so many different types of players like we've
seen now in recent years, guys like guys that weren't
on older versions of the Nuggets. Guys like Peyton Watson,
guys like Christian Brown, guys like Russell Westbrook that have
(06:16):
thrived with him and with Lebron James. Just every single
guy who can knock down to catch and shoot jump
shot and is smart and knows how to be in
the right place. They those guys just seem to fit
with Lebron and do it well. I think that you
can have an offensive folkrum that can kind of inject
life into an offense irrespective of your coach. And I thought,
(06:36):
you know, Tyrs Haliburton in many ways is the identity
of this Pacers team. And even going back to some
of the stretches in last year's postseason when they looked bad,
a lot of it had to center around Halliburton kind
of just going passive for various reasons, whether it was
you know, obviously he wasn't the same athlete last year
that he was this year because of his hamstring injury.
But similarly, the instances of bal denial that we've that
(07:00):
have taken him in his kind of like flow out
of games and how it can impact the Pacers. But
at this phase of his career, he's far more consistently engaged.
He's far more consistently bringing that you know, kind of
like assertion on the offensive end, and those stretches have
been few and far between. Like when we watched the
Pacers at the end of Game three, that was weird.
(07:21):
That was unusual for a team that has consistently been
firing on all cylinders in this postseason run. Similarly, in
that Cavs game, it's like, oh, that's really weird. Well,
they came out in Game four and hung eighty points
in the first half. So there's just like a relentless
kind of identity to this basketball team. And I do
think it stems from Halliburton. I do think he's the
driving force. Generally speaking, these kinds of players. Speaking back
(07:45):
to Tyrese Haliburton and his pushback against him being the
most over overrated player in the league, I generally think
that advantage creators are underrated in the NBA. Yes, I'm
saying even guys like step even guys like Lebron, even
guys like the outside of their fan bases, there's a
reason why those fan bases scream about it all the time.
(08:05):
There's a reason why why Denver fans are constantly trying
to tell you about Jokic and what he does. There's
a reason why Steph fans are doing that with Steph.
There's a reason why Lebron fans are doing that with Lebron.
There's a reason why Luca fans are doing that with Luca. Because,
flat out, when you have an offensive player that can
create advantages, putting your role players in a situation where
instead of facing a set defender, they have someone sprinting
(08:27):
at them, or they're operating in an opening, every player
in the NBA becomes like four times as good as
they are when they don't get to operate within an advantage.
It is arguably the most important trait that any basketball
player can bring to the table. It is why I
have always been drawn to offensive engines more than I've
been drawn to like kind of the stereotypical two way
(08:48):
score type of player. The type of player that can
consistently set his teammates up with advantages is going to
make life easier in every phase of the game. And
Tyres is just one of the best at it. Even
when we looked at the down the stretch part of
this game, like there's a when the Knicks made that
run and they cut it down to I think they
(09:08):
got it down as close as five if I remember correctly.
Before Siakam hits a three in the right corner is
like four or five points something like that. All it
is is like Haliburton brings the ball to the floor
with's pace, Nemhard comes into a guard guard screen, slips
out of it, and two people linger on the ball
on Haliburton for just a split second. Haliburton just pitches
it over the top, and when Nemhard catches it, the
(09:28):
guy closing out on him is closing out behind his
right shoulder, and so he's like, oh shit, I got
a driving lane, and so he just goes down into
the lane. And as he's going down in the lane, oh,
Janodobi has no choice but to step over. He's the
low man. So he's the guy that has to step
over and be in help easy extra pass to Passcalciakam
in the right corner knocks down the three. That ends
up being a monstrously important shot in this game. Zero
(09:51):
mention of that in the box score. That's a Nemhard
assist and a Siakam catches shoot three. There is no
mention of that in the box score or for Tyre's
Halliburton advantage creators are vastly underrated because if you look
at the box score, it's not going to account for
the simple fact that they lean the defense towards them
and various and each player has done it in a
(10:13):
different way. Haliburton does it different than Yoki jokicch does
it different than step Steph does it different than Luca
or Lebron in the past. These guys all do it
in different ways, but it more or less manifests an
advantage creation. The Tyres Haliburton layup that he had down
the stretch right after the Siakam three, they just ran
a guard guard screen and the guard lingered too long
(10:34):
and it blew the play up and led to a
wide open three for Siakam. So what happens on the
very next guard guard screen. Brunson throws a half hearted
hedge because he's hesitant to leave his shooter, and Haliburton
just turns the corner. What's the advantage there? The advantage
is the guy who's guarding him has to get through
a screen with no help, and he's just he's gonna
have a hard time keeping in front of a fast
(10:54):
guard like Tyres Haliburton like that, but that is a
reward for the fact that Tyres Halliburton's so religiously makes
those reads over and over and over again, and it
kind of manifests the identity of this roster. Even the
Miles Turner foul where he draws the foul late wasn't
even a Haliburton action, it was an Aram Nemhart action.
But they he comes off the screen, Karl Anthony Towns
(11:17):
has to step up to contest. As a result, Miles
Turner is diving to the basket with McHale Bridges trying
to box him out, and so even though Siakam doesn't
get the rebound, he just kind of taps at it.
It leaves a situation where all of a sudden, this
skinny six seven dude is trying to deal with the
starting center for the Indiana Pacers and he's just going
to go get an offensive rebound. Advantage creation is a
(11:39):
thing that doesn't manifest in the box score in that case,
androw Nemhart coming off of a screen that doesn't show
as an assist if it shows as a missed field
goal like is a negative thing on his box score.
But because he came off of that action with pace,
because he set his man up for the screen and
got separation, he was able to force a switch that
led to a different kind of advantage. Miles Turner inside
(11:59):
poss against a skinny small McKale bridges Key playing the game,
he gets to the foul line. Advantage creation is underrated,
and I think we don't talk about it nearly enough.
And there's a reason why. That type of player is
the type of player that I find myself gravitating towards.
And with Tyris Haliburton, you know, like he's kind of
another one of those guys similar to Jason Tatum, where
(12:21):
like there's kind of two versions of him on any
given night, there's like the star version of him, and
then there's like the superstar version of him. And similarly
with Tatum, the superstar version of Tyres Haliburton comes from
when the jump shot is going in, when he's being
aggressive as a scorer. He impacts the game at a
level as high as the very best players in the NBA.
(12:43):
Now his floor is high. His advantage creation is such
a valuable tool that he can be the eighth or
ninth best player in the league averaging eighteen points and
nine assists. Right, that's a pretty innocuous box score. Now again,
that box score is underrating the impact that he brings.
But that is still a star level player with a
stat line more in line with what you see from
(13:05):
the forty to forty fifth best player in the league. Right,
that's the advantage creation piece. That's the floor for Tyres Haliburton.
When he brings the shooting, when he's knocking down those
threes coming off of ball screens, when he's knocking down
those mid range pull ups coming off of ball screens,
when he's taking Miles Turner er, excuse me, when he's
taking Karl Anthony Towns or Mitchell Robinson out on a
(13:26):
switch and hitting a three in their face, or Jalen
Brunson and hitting a three in his face that switch beating.
That is the top end of him as a score.
And when he does all of that stuff, they react
to his shooting, which gets him the driving lanes. That's
when he starts getting into the basket and he's actually
like a pretty good downhill athlete. Him and TJ. McConnell
kind of remind me of each other in that sense
(13:47):
where they are just constantly playing downhill. And so even
though they may not be the first step athletes that
you see like Anthony Edwards, they are athletes that generate
advantage with pace moving all the time, and they capitalize
on the defense letting go of the rope in that
perpetual motion that they bring to the table. But awesome
(14:08):
night from Tyree Saliburton just just one of those iconic
performances in his career. Thirty two points, twelve rebounds, fifteen assists.
And here's the thing, doesn't turn the dam basketball over.
He's less than two turnovers per game in this entire
postseason run. I think he has twenty seven turnovers in
fourteen games. Like that is not only is that going
to be vitally important for a potential Oklahoma City Thunder series,
(14:29):
which we're about to debate with Jackson here in a
few minutes, that is just preposterous considering the usage, the
types of difficult passes that he's making. There's like these
jump passes, these double pump passes. He had this pass
where he got caught in between reads and like at
the last second, like he looked at Miles Turner on
a roll, decided not to pass to him, looked over
(14:49):
to the side, then looked back to Turner and like
floated a perfect pass against a three quarter front that
just barely got over the defender's fingertips and just fed
Miles Turner in or a layup, and it was like
all while he was in mid air, it was just
an unbelievable pass. Like the kinds of difficult skip passes,
swing passes, the kinds of off the dribble passes that
(15:10):
he throws to not turn the basketball over is truly remarkable.
And you know, if you if you haven't been exposed
to Tyres Halliburton and what he's capable of, and I
don't know how you wouldn't be. He's hit what two
or three game winners in this postseason or you know
the obviously the Knicks game wasn't a game winner, but
a shot that effectively put them in position to win
(15:31):
the game. He's been between the nd season tournament run
that he had last year, even the conference finals run
last year, which didn't really showcase his high end scoring
as often as it could have been, but it showcase
a lot of what his playmaking talent is. This is
this was a crash course for anybody who hasn't really
been around the pacers to understand just how gifted a
(15:52):
ceiling Tyrese Haliburton has. Aaron Ei Smith, I want to
talk about a couple other pacers and Den we'll talk
a little bit big picture on the series and then
we'll get to Jackson in our NBA Finals preview, so
I thought, aaron Ne Smith, you know, this is the
wear and tear impact that he brings to the table
with his ball pressure. There have been stretches in this
(16:13):
series where Brunson has scored on him and made it
look easy, right. There are even a couple possessions tonight
where he scored on him and made it look easy.
But he's a big, strong, physical point of attack defender
that never stops coming at you, never stops picking me
up full court, never start like you know, we've talked
a lot about body angles with respect to Jada McDaniels
and the Shae Gilds Alexander matchup, and kind of like
opening up his stance and like creating these easy driving lanes.
(16:36):
You watched Nee Smith. He is squared up with punts
in every time. He's like, you're not gonna get an
easy drive. You're going to have to shake me. You're
gonna have to get way off to that. You're gonna
have to go way around me, or you're gonna have
to break me down with the move because I'm squared
up and I'm right in your chest and I'm right
in your face the entire time, flying over screens and
(16:56):
refusing to give up those switches. In that fourth quarter,
Brunson was like a non factor offensively as they leaned
on those crazy running catch and shoot Michale Bridges threes,
which haven't gone in all postseason outside of a handful
of times. I don't understand why that was such a
high volume option for the Nick Slate, Like there was
(17:20):
a lack of assertion, a lack of aggression from Brunson
that I would credit Aaron Ee Smith with. I think
he worked. I think he's Warren Brunson down over the
course of the series, and for the first time in
this entire postseason, to my recollection, we had a crunch
time period where Jalen Brunson was a non factor or
at least not a factor in a good way, and
(17:40):
so I just wanted to credit Aeronie Smith for his defense.
Ben Matherin. We've talked about Ben Matherin a lot over
the course of this postseason run as being one of
the more high volume scorers for Indiana relative to the
minutes that he plays, and he's had a rough series,
but like one of the things I talked about before
the series is like he doesn't put up, you know,
massive box score numbers per se, but on a per
(18:02):
minute basis. Coming into the series, he was the highest
score for the Pacers per thirty six coming into the
to the Eastern Conference Finals in just twelve minutes of
play tonight, twenty points. With his downhill athleticism as a slasher,
as a cutter, as a transition threat, as an offensive
rebounder crasher, there were offensive rebounds that he didn't even
(18:24):
get but that he caused just by virtue of being
a wrecking ball flying downhill into the lane. He was
profoundly impactful in this game and probably was a little
bit of a palate cleanser for him after what was
a rough series up to this point. The Knicks have
the ability to play well in this matchup. I was
thinking about it during that first half run when they
(18:46):
rotate and they keep Indiana in front, and they chase
him off the three point line and they force him
to play one on one. More often than not, they
can have moments where they control the series because Brunson
and Kat are like better one on one players. They're
they're they're better at just like breaking down the defense
when the defense is rotated and loaded up right, like
(19:08):
when they when they when there isn't that easy opening,
And so you'll see these stretches where it's like, oh, man,
the Knicks got three four stops in a row, and
it's like two brunts and floaters and a cat driving
and one and or a draws a double team that
gets swung around, and all of a sudden, you're like, man,
the Knicks are moving a little bit. But again, they
just cannot sustain that at any point in this series,
(19:29):
not in any real way. It's like they'll have these
quarters and bursts. And by the way, that's what it
was like in the Celtics series. It was like short
bursts of greatness that put them over the top. Same
thing in the Pistons series. There were two games in
that series where the Pistons had control in the fourth
quarter and lost it because of a Knicks burst like
they're they're burst their ceiling. As I mentioned at off
(19:51):
the top of the show, you could argue the Knicks
ceiling is every bit as high as the Pacers, maybe
even higher depending on who you ask, right, but like,
it doesn't matter if you can't sustain, and the Indiana
Pacers play like the Pacers far more than the Knicks
play like the best version of themselves way too often tonight,
just not picking up the ball in transition, giving up
(20:12):
an easy swing pass and transition for a three bad
floor balance leading to a leak out one on one
opportunity where Shiacham's just just you know, laying one or
two counter moves against the back pedaling defender and getting
an easy layup or botching coverages. There was like a
stretch at the beginning of the game where the Pacers
just had to run a three man action of any kind,
whether it was like a stack pick and roll or
(20:33):
a wedge pick and roll or something along those lines,
or double drag, and just like whatever they did, it
just there was a dude wide open at the three
point line, whether it was the ball handler because no
one picked him up, or they switched the ball handler
but left one of the screeners slipping, Like the attention
to detail on defense all season long for the Knicks
wasn't there, and when they needed it to be there
for them in this postseason run, it wasn't there. And ultimately,
(20:55):
if you're gonna win in the postseason at the highest level,
you've got to be more disciplined in detail or and
to defense. The Knicks worn't, and that's gonna be the
thing that stands in the way this year. The series
is over because the Knicks need to win three games
in a row and the Pacers are just flatly a
better basketball team, Like there's no there's no bit of
(21:16):
information we've received at any point this season that would
lead me to believe that the Knicks could sustain the
level they need to sustain to beat the Pacers three
times in a row. I'd only give them about a
thirty percent chance to win Game five. That's a good chance.
I wouldn't be surprised necessarily if the Knicks won in
Game five. But the problem is, historically my experience, teams
that seem to lack belief in their ability to actually win,
(21:38):
like they don't actually think they can go on the
road and win, then they'll end up punting because why
and just emotionally mentally involuntarily punting it, not quitting, but
just there's a natural like do we really want to
like grind out this big game five so that we
can go back to India and get or ass kicked.
(22:00):
There's like a little bit of there's a little bit
of that kind of natural oh man, like we can't
actually beat these guys. I've seen it a few times
in this postseason where you just see a team that
just like they feel like they blew their chance to
win the series. And yeah, they have their home game
with a chance to extend the series, but what's the point,
you know? So again, we're going to find out about
the Knicks and their basketball character if they win in
(22:20):
Game five, and it'll tell us a lot about whether
or not they want to go home or if they
want to, you know, go on vacation, if they want
to go on vacation, or if they want to try
to win this thing. And uh, and I give them
certainly a chance. But I my guess right now is
that the Pacers close this out in five. I think
the Knicks have had their motivations app after what was
a disappointing h end to this particular game.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
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Speaker 2 (23:16):
All right, guys, we're gonna bring Jackson on. So what
I would like to do here, because Jackson has put
a great deal of thought into this, I want to
just get Jackson's take. Basically, the idea is to set
the stage. I have said on the show that I
think the Thunder would beat up on the Pacers or
the Knicks if they went to the finals. And we've
(23:37):
had some discussion about it on the show centering around
game plan, which I'm sure Jackson will mention, but I
am like leaning towards OKC and five, maybe even four.
So I want to give. I want to give Jackson
a chance to make the case for why he thinks
at least you're you're I'm guessing you're saying, at least
you expect a longer, more competitive series.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Yeah, I do think okay, se should be a substantial favorite,
and I would pick them to win the series. I
just think that the Patriots have a chance, have a
build of a team and have some key attributes that
make them potentially able to give the Thunder some problems
to win a few games.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
And it mainly comes down to three things.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
One they They and Haliburton in general, as we've discussed
a lot, do not turn the basketball over.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
They are bottom five.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
In the league and you know team turnovers on offensive
turnovers and Halle you know fifteen assist no turnovers tonight
is evidence of how lethal that can be, especially against
a team like the Thunder that forces if the most
turnovers in the league, play thrives in transition.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
As we've discussed.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Second thing, the Pacers. I haven't seen a team in
a while that are this committed to punishing smalls in
switches with with with player who's not their best their
lead guy. Right, most teams they get a switch. They
want to take Brunston and have him go against whoever
your worst defender is, Tatum, have him.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Go against where They're like, no, we don't even care.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
We don't need Halle to iso kat. If we got Pascal,
if Brunton is guarding passcal and to switch, we're going
to give him.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
The ball over and over and over and over and over.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
They are so so committed to it, it's it's really
it's really impressive. And the third thing is they this
is sort of more of a game plan potentially specific
things as we've discussed, depending on how Okac guards. The
Pacers move the ball as well as any team this season,
(25:29):
as well as any team I can remember in the
last you know, since maybe the Warriors, they move that frickin'
basketball and the Okac Thunder in their normal defense that
they run that they haven't really changed to this point.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Maybe they'll change against Indiana, but they haven't really changed much.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
They that's how you beat them is with is with
a lot of passes, a lot of ball ball movement,
getting your advantage and saying we want to we get
our first advantage, Let's find the best possiblesh out that we.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Can get out of that advantage.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Now, if the Thunder change up their defensive game plan
and say, just score as many points as you can
Tyree Taliburton, that you know, changes the calculus a little bit.
But it feels like the Pacers have offensively, at least theoretically,
have some of the things that are required to beat
a defense as good as the Thunders great breakdown.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I think the thing that you hit on that is
especially important is the way that the Pacers attack switches.
It's different than what like Tatum and Brown were doing.
They're not like, oh, we have this six foot tall
guy in space, let me face him up from twenty
four feet from the basket. It's like, it's no like
Turner in particular, is like beating switches at the rim.
(26:38):
Like at the rim, He's like, it's whether it's an
offensive rebound or it's put a deep seal, it's at
the rim. And then Siakam will occasionally go to like
a right shoulder fader, a left shoulder fade, but he's
attacking those mismatches very close to the rim, and that
is going to be a key part there. Now, the
let's go through some of the specifics. So the the
(27:00):
passing the ball through Oklahoma City's defense. Part. This is
where it gets fascinating because I actually do think there's
a solid chance that Marked I trust Mark Dagenel as
a very smart basketball coach to know that what Denver did,
what Minnesota has done in terms of sagging and forcing
(27:20):
Shaye to shoot over the top and to make passing
reads is the best way. Uh it excuse me with
the uh, with the with these other teams and how
they have been really aggressive for it, aggressive against like Minnesota,
like picking up ant full court, uh, making them pass
against blitzes in ball pressure and Julius Randall getting double
(27:42):
teamed on every post up like that worked against them.
And I think he knows that Indiana is a better
passing team that doesn't turn the basketball over. But I
trust Dagonall to know that it may not be the
best game plan. But I also wouldn't be surprised if
he tried it anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if he was, like,
(28:03):
let's just see if they shit their pants, you know, like,
let's Halliburton's never played in the finals before. Let's give
him lou Dort physical defense at the point of attack.
Let's just see what happens, right, And I think the
main key there is going to be if Indiana does
have success against it, will he pivot quickly? Now to
your point about having it be a longer series, Let's
(28:26):
say that they come out in game one and it's
four aggressive overhelp leaving week side skips open and the
Pacers steel game one. Then there's a really good chance
this goes six because then we're probably getting at least two,
if not three, Indiana home games. And I wouldn't be
shocked if they got one of those games, and now
(28:46):
it's a six game series. So to your point, like
that that I can see absolutely playing a role. My
main contention is that if he does make the game
plan change, so again you load up alongside Tyres, Haliburton
is just rifling skip passes over the top. They're playing
with an advantage. I do think with the double two.
(29:06):
I do think with the post ups and the switch
attacking with Turner and Siakam, I think that he'll double.
I think that he'll double immediately, and I think it'll
be a bigger challenge for Siakam and Turner to deal
with those double teams than it is in some of
these other matchups. I mean to put it simply, we've
seen a lot of people, including Jokic kind of like
(29:27):
fall apart. Jogs had a three game stretch where he
was bad against Okay see, so like there's a certain
there's a certain amount of that there too. My main
contention is that inevitably, I think this series devolves down
to we're staying home regarding Haliburton one on one, were
guarding actions two on two, three man actions, three on three,
(29:48):
we're communicating through switches, We're switching everything. You try scoring
on us one on one over and over again, and
they're just not the team that's gonna make as many
mistakes as the Knicks made. And that that's where I
think it gets a little. It gets a little tricky.
But to your point, all it takes is Oklahoma City
bringing their base game plan, Halliburton passing through it, not
(30:09):
turning the ball over uh Siakam, and Turner doing damage
against switches. You steal a game in Oka see early
in the series before the game plan shifts, then all
of a sudden, you win a game in Indiana off
the strength of your home crowd, and to your point,
anything can happen so if it's let's say it's two
to two going back to Oklahoma City, what if Oklahoma
City shits their pants in a bunch of a bunch
(30:31):
of big ways in the finals. That's a great point.
So so yeah, I mean, so what do you think,
like what, let me just put it to you this way.
If you had to guess how okay See guards and
how quickly Mark Dagnall pivots, what would you expect to happen?
Speaker 4 (30:51):
I expect dort On Hollie to start both because he's
the best on ball defender option as well as he's
so strong that you think you if you're the thunder,
you're talking yourself into. We can survive a Pascal switch
on blue door if we feel like switching, we can
survive that. So I think that's sort of like the
(31:12):
big question right away is are they going to switch
any of those pick and rolls with Siakam or anybody?
And do they feel comfortable with any any of their
sort of wing guard defenders in those switches.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
But it's going to be interesting to see. Okaysee has
so many guys, they got so many defensive bodies.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
They ran a lineup at one point in the second
half yesterday that I don't think they do that often.
They do sometimes where they had Cason Wallace Russo and
Dorton Mfloor at the same time, I'm like, what are
you supposed to do as an offense when those three
dudes are defending?
Speaker 3 (31:41):
You're one year two when you're three. It's like that
is that is terrifying.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
So that and I do think the doubling is going
to happen for sure once Pascal and Miles inevitably, you know,
punish some of those switches and we will see. It'll
be very interesting to see if Aarony Smith can stay hot,
he's very streaky shooter, and if Andrew Nemahard can can
stay as playoff Klay Thompson because I looked at the
(32:06):
numbers the other day and he shoots something like thirty
two percent from three in the regular season and over
his career in the playoffs he's over fifty percent. So
if he can keep hitting over fifty perent of their threes,
like they got a shot for real or not even
not a shot, but they got a shot to make
it competitive.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
I think they got a chot to make competitive. If
those guys.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Can can be can can can be can knock down
more shots than Cason Wallace lou Dort.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
One of the things we haven't even talked about yet
that I think is worth mentioning. By the way, guys
like my I have not done any prep yet for
this potential series, so I haven't watched gone back to
rewatch their regular season matchups. I could very well change
my mind. My initial gut feeling was that the Timberwolves
had beat Oklahoma City. I gave him a slight edge
(32:51):
in my initial gut feeling. Then I went to watch
the film and I was like, oh, like, I don't
think they're gonna be able to get Julius Randall the
ball in places where he can score. And I don't
think they're going to be able to go to n
Osriy on the block. So you know, maybe I changed
my mind after seeing some stuff the Let's talk through
the Pacers on defense in this matchup for a second.
One of the things that I found interesting in the
(33:12):
film of the Timberwolves Thunder series is Jada McDaniels has
been awful on Shae, like straight up awful, Like this
the second straight year where he's been like straight up
non effective on ball against a Star in the conference finals. Now,
(33:32):
my theory is is that it's matchup based in the
sense that I think Luca is way too big and
strong for him, and I think Shay is too fast
for him. And so there's this other conversation to have,
which is like our Wyery six to eight defensive wings
just like not versatile enough to succeed in the postseason
if you're.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Not strong enough for one guy and you're not quick
enough for another guy.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, exactly, And like it's bad because, like I would argue,
those two series have swung on Jada complete inability to
make the Stars uncomfortable from the other team. But and
then looking at the Pacers, it's probably gonna be Nie
Smith and Nie Smith, like we talked about earlier, Jayden
(34:15):
is we just we were talking about it in the show.
Like Jayden's stances have been so frustrating for me watching
on film as he's like conceding driving angles to Shay,
and I think Nie Smith, if he can square them up,
navigate screens well, keep him in front, force him to
speed over the top shooter without them having to overdo
the help. But like there were a lot of stretches
Intonight's game where the rotation, like the defensive backside rotations
(34:38):
for the Pacers are super impressive. Siakim had three or
four crazy week side closeouts on og And Andobi where
he chased him off the line like an Og hit
a fucking crazy step back over him on one of them,
but like his ability to help and then rotate there,
you could see I could talk myself into the Pacers
being an interesting defensive matchup for the Thunder because Turner
(34:59):
can p the rim. Siakam's an excellent week sad rotational
player like even Halliburton I think is underrated as kind
of like a dude does his job on defense kind
of guy. And then what if Neie Smith just slides
his feet well and contains against Shay. I'm gonna go
ahead and say, Jackson, that you've convinced me I think
(35:22):
that I think that the Pacers have a better chance
to make it competitive against the Thunder.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Then I was giving them credit for that, said, I
would still be really surprised if they won the series. Uh.
But yeah, I think you're right about the fact that
the Pacers are just a really good team that you
could argue just Indiana being in the right place all
the time, as like a help and recover rotation team
will inherently cause a bunch of twenty two year olds
(35:50):
to suck in the finals one night.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
So this is the other thing I was gonna say
that I forgot. It does feel like because OKAC is
so smart and so fast, and they're so connected on
both ends, and you really have to be well connected
as a unit to beat them, which the Timberwolves are not.
The Timberwolves are the farthest thing from well connected. They're
very talented, but they got Julius Randa and Rudy Gobert.
They're not gonna be well connected, right And so I
(36:13):
think the Pacers are superly synergistically in flow right now,
and that is gonna go a long way against a
team as smart.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
That's a good point. I think that. I think that
that is the key there is like they're older, they're
more experienced. They there's a version of this where they
just do all the right things in two NBA Finals
games and the twenty two year olds just kind of
struggle in the moment. So there's a version of that too.
And and to your point, like if they run and
(36:42):
they move the ball, well, they're gonna get open threes,
especially against Oklahoma City's based game plan. It's gonna be interesting.
I'm excited to dive into the film. Obviously, we'll wait
until both series actually finish before we do that, but
that's gonna be. That's gonna be a really fascinating series.
I'm super interested in it. But Jackson, thanks for taking
the time to prep all of that. What do you
say we just head over the game to a playback?
(37:04):
Sound good to you? Cool? All right, guys, That's all
we have for tonight is always been. Sincerely appreciate you
guys for supporting us and supporting the show. I'm headed
over to playback again. That's playback dot tv slash OOPS
tonight will be taking callers, taking questions, stuff like that.
As always, we appreciate you guys for supporting us and
supporting the show. We will see you tomorrow night for
Game five of the Thunder and the Timberwolves. What's up, guys?
(37:26):
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. They would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it. The volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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(02:02):
welcome to hoops tonight. You're at the volume heavy Tuesday. Everybody.
Hope all of you guys are having a great start
to your week. Well, the Indiana Pacers, as expected, ended
up going up three to one on the Knicks tonight.
Kind of a wired and wired type of game. There's
a brief mix.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Push early, a little bit of a.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Attempting push from the Knicks late, but the Pacers consistently
demonstrated themselves to be the better team tonight, as they
have for the majority of this series. We're gonna break
that game down from the perspective of both teams. We're
going to talk Jackson has a theory that he's higher
on the Indiana Pacers and their chances against Oklahoma City
than I am. So I thought that would make fun
grounds for a debate, So we'll have a little debate
(02:39):
in the middle section of the show as we talk
about a potential NBA Finals matchup between the Pacers and
the Thunder, and then at the tail end of the show,
we'll take five to ten minutes of questions. Any big
picture questions you guys have regarding either series, we can
get to them at that point. And then when we
wrap up here tonight, we'll be heading over to playback again.
That's playback dot TV slash oops tonight. Hey, callers, we
(03:00):
watch film. It's informal. We just have fun. We just
talk hoops. It's a fun little community we're building over there,
so make sure you guys follow us over there when
we finish up tonight. You guys have the job before
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You don't miss any more any more of our videos.
Follow me on Twitter, Yeah, Underscore JSNLTC, you guys don't
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(03:22):
that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media
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guys follow us there. In the last but not least,
keep dropping mail back questions in the chat so we
can get to them at the tail end of the
show tonight. All right, let's talk some basketball. So one
of the things to credit the Nicks one of the
things that they did at the end of Game three
which I have not seen often in this postseason run,
(03:43):
aside from Game three, ironically of the Cavs series, where
Max Strews started. You know, he had been the Calves
had been in intentionally denying Tyrese Haliburton throughout the series,
but Strews just did a way better job of it
in Game three, and it kind of just threw the
the Pacers out of whack and they had a really
weird night. But for the most part, there's like a
(04:03):
pace and an energy and a flow to Indiana's offense
that is pretty consistent. Like one of the biggest theories
that I leaned on in terms of me picking Indiana
to beat the Knicks, I wasn't sure necessarily which team
had the higher ceiling, like when things were really going
well for either team. It kind of felt coin flippy
(04:24):
to me. But I just trusted the Pacers to more
frequently be at their best than I trusted the knixt team,
and that made it a relatively easy pick for me
relative to some of the other more, you know, kind
of confusing series that we've seen in this postseason run.
But to the next credit. In Game three, in that
fourth quarter, we saw a Pacers offense that didn't look
(04:45):
like the Pacers offense, as the ball wasn't moving around there.
They lacked that pace and flow in transition kind of
turned into some iffy isolation possessions and it just kind
of felt like they lost their character a little bit,
and Tyre's Halliburton had zero interest in letting that phenomenon
extend into the start of Game four, immediately coming out
(05:06):
the gates, bringing that energy, bringing that flow. I thought
stan Van Gundy had an interesting point in the broadcast
talking about how the point guard is the guy that
really pushes his team to run, not necessarily the coach. Now,
I don't necessarily agree with that assertion, because we've seen
coaches make teams run more. I mean, frankly this year,
just Kenny Atkinson and what he did with the Cavs
(05:28):
got them to run more than they did in years past.
But I do think it's a combination of both. And
I think the way I would kind of like tweak
that take from stan Van Gundhy is I would say
your point guard can supersede, or I would even say
your point guard, you're superstar. Your foundational offensive folkrum can
overcome any sort of coaching roster circumstance and get guys
(05:52):
to run, and get guys to take on their identity
as an offensive player. That's why over the years, we
saw so many many different types of players thrive alongside
Steph Curry, so many different types of players like we've
seen now in recent years, guys like guys that weren't
on older versions of the Nuggets. Guys like Peyton Watson,
guys like Christian Brown, guys like Russell Westbrook that have
(06:16):
thrived with him and with Lebron James. Just every single
guy who can knock down to catch and shoot jump
shot and is smart and knows how to be in
the right place. They those guys just seem to fit
with Lebron and do it well. I think that you
can have an offensive folkrum that can kind of inject
life into an offense irrespective of your coach. And I thought,
(06:36):
you know, Tyrs Haliburton in many ways is the identity
of this Pacers team. And even going back to some
of the stretches in last year's postseason when they looked bad,
a lot of it had to center around Halliburton kind
of just going passive for various reasons, whether it was
you know, obviously he wasn't the same athlete last year
that he was this year because of his hamstring injury.
But similarly, the instances of bal denial that we've that
(07:00):
have taken him in his kind of like flow out
of games and how it can impact the Pacers. But
at this phase of his career, he's far more consistently engaged.
He's far more consistently bringing that you know, kind of
like assertion on the offensive end, and those stretches have
been few and far between. Like when we watched the
Pacers at the end of Game three, that was weird.
(07:21):
That was unusual for a team that has consistently been
firing on all cylinders in this postseason run. Similarly, in
that Cavs game, it's like, oh, that's really weird. Well,
they came out in Game four and hung eighty points
in the first half. So there's just like a relentless
kind of identity to this basketball team. And I do
think it stems from Halliburton. I do think he's the
driving force. Generally speaking, these kinds of players. Speaking back
(07:45):
to Tyrese Haliburton and his pushback against him being the
most over overrated player in the league, I generally think
that advantage creators are underrated in the NBA. Yes, I'm
saying even guys like step even guys like Lebron, even
guys like the outside of their fan bases, there's a
reason why those fan bases scream about it all the time.
(08:05):
There's a reason why why Denver fans are constantly trying
to tell you about Jokic and what he does. There's
a reason why Steph fans are doing that with Steph.
There's a reason why Lebron fans are doing that with Lebron.
There's a reason why Luca fans are doing that with Luca. Because,
flat out, when you have an offensive player that can
create advantages, putting your role players in a situation where
instead of facing a set defender, they have someone sprinting
(08:27):
at them, or they're operating in an opening, every player
in the NBA becomes like four times as good as
they are when they don't get to operate within an advantage.
It is arguably the most important trait that any basketball
player can bring to the table. It is why I
have always been drawn to offensive engines more than I've
been drawn to like kind of the stereotypical two way
(08:48):
score type of player. The type of player that can
consistently set his teammates up with advantages is going to
make life easier in every phase of the game. And
Tyres is just one of the best at it. Even
when we looked at the down the stretch part of
this game, like there's a when the Knicks made that
run and they cut it down to I think they
(09:08):
got it down as close as five if I remember correctly.
Before Siakam hits a three in the right corner is
like four or five points something like that. All it
is is like Haliburton brings the ball to the floor
with's pace, Nemhard comes into a guard guard screen, slips
out of it, and two people linger on the ball
on Haliburton for just a split second. Haliburton just pitches
it over the top, and when Nemhard catches it, the
(09:28):
guy closing out on him is closing out behind his
right shoulder, and so he's like, oh shit, I got
a driving lane, and so he just goes down into
the lane. And as he's going down in the lane, oh,
Janodobi has no choice but to step over. He's the
low man. So he's the guy that has to step
over and be in help easy extra pass to Passcalciakam
in the right corner knocks down the three. That ends
up being a monstrously important shot in this game. Zero
(09:51):
mention of that in the box score. That's a Nemhard
assist and a Siakam catches shoot three. There is no
mention of that in the box score or for Tyre's
Halliburton advantage creators are vastly underrated because if you look
at the box score, it's not going to account for
the simple fact that they lean the defense towards them
and various and each player has done it in a
(10:13):
different way. Haliburton does it different than Yoki jokicch does
it different than step Steph does it different than Luca
or Lebron in the past. These guys all do it
in different ways, but it more or less manifests an
advantage creation. The Tyres Haliburton layup that he had down
the stretch right after the Siakam three, they just ran
a guard guard screen and the guard lingered too long
(10:34):
and it blew the play up and led to a
wide open three for Siakam. So what happens on the
very next guard guard screen. Brunson throws a half hearted
hedge because he's hesitant to leave his shooter, and Haliburton
just turns the corner. What's the advantage there? The advantage
is the guy who's guarding him has to get through
a screen with no help, and he's just he's gonna
have a hard time keeping in front of a fast
(10:54):
guard like Tyres Haliburton like that, but that is a
reward for the fact that Tyres Halliburton's so religiously makes
those reads over and over and over again, and it
kind of manifests the identity of this roster. Even the
Miles Turner foul where he draws the foul late wasn't
even a Haliburton action, it was an Aram Nemhart action.
But they he comes off the screen, Karl Anthony Towns
(11:17):
has to step up to contest. As a result, Miles
Turner is diving to the basket with McHale Bridges trying
to box him out, and so even though Siakam doesn't
get the rebound, he just kind of taps at it.
It leaves a situation where all of a sudden, this
skinny six seven dude is trying to deal with the
starting center for the Indiana Pacers and he's just going
to go get an offensive rebound. Advantage creation is a
(11:39):
thing that doesn't manifest in the box score in that case,
androw Nemhart coming off of a screen that doesn't show
as an assist if it shows as a missed field
goal like is a negative thing on his box score.
But because he came off of that action with pace,
because he set his man up for the screen and
got separation, he was able to force a switch that
led to a different kind of advantage. Miles Turner inside
(11:59):
poss against a skinny small McKale bridges Key playing the game,
he gets to the foul line. Advantage creation is underrated,
and I think we don't talk about it nearly enough.
And there's a reason why. That type of player is
the type of player that I find myself gravitating towards.
And with Tyris Haliburton, you know, like he's kind of
another one of those guys similar to Jason Tatum, where
(12:21):
like there's kind of two versions of him on any
given night, there's like the star version of him, and
then there's like the superstar version of him. And similarly
with Tatum, the superstar version of Tyres Haliburton comes from
when the jump shot is going in, when he's being
aggressive as a scorer. He impacts the game at a
level as high as the very best players in the NBA.
(12:43):
Now his floor is high. His advantage creation is such
a valuable tool that he can be the eighth or
ninth best player in the league averaging eighteen points and
nine assists. Right, that's a pretty innocuous box score. Now again,
that box score is underrating the impact that he brings.
But that is still a star level player with a
stat line more in line with what you see from
(13:05):
the forty to forty fifth best player in the league. Right,
that's the advantage creation piece. That's the floor for Tyres Haliburton.
When he brings the shooting, when he's knocking down those
threes coming off of ball screens, when he's knocking down
those mid range pull ups coming off of ball screens,
when he's taking Miles Turner er, excuse me, when he's
taking Karl Anthony Towns or Mitchell Robinson out on a
(13:26):
switch and hitting a three in their face, or Jalen
Brunson and hitting a three in his face that switch beating.
That is the top end of him as a score.
And when he does all of that stuff, they react
to his shooting, which gets him the driving lanes. That's
when he starts getting into the basket and he's actually
like a pretty good downhill athlete. Him and TJ. McConnell
kind of remind me of each other in that sense
(13:47):
where they are just constantly playing downhill. And so even
though they may not be the first step athletes that
you see like Anthony Edwards, they are athletes that generate
advantage with pace moving all the time, and they capitalize
on the defense letting go of the rope in that
perpetual motion that they bring to the table. But awesome
(14:08):
night from Tyree Saliburton just just one of those iconic
performances in his career. Thirty two points, twelve rebounds, fifteen assists.
And here's the thing, doesn't turn the dam basketball over.
He's less than two turnovers per game in this entire
postseason run. I think he has twenty seven turnovers in
fourteen games. Like that is not only is that going
to be vitally important for a potential Oklahoma City Thunder series,
(14:29):
which we're about to debate with Jackson here in a
few minutes, that is just preposterous considering the usage, the
types of difficult passes that he's making. There's like these
jump passes, these double pump passes. He had this pass
where he got caught in between reads and like at
the last second, like he looked at Miles Turner on
a roll, decided not to pass to him, looked over
(14:49):
to the side, then looked back to Turner and like
floated a perfect pass against a three quarter front that
just barely got over the defender's fingertips and just fed
Miles Turner in or a layup, and it was like
all while he was in mid air, it was just
an unbelievable pass. Like the kinds of difficult skip passes,
swing passes, the kinds of off the dribble passes that
(15:10):
he throws to not turn the basketball over is truly remarkable.
And you know, if you if you haven't been exposed
to Tyres Halliburton and what he's capable of, and I
don't know how you wouldn't be. He's hit what two
or three game winners in this postseason or you know
the obviously the Knicks game wasn't a game winner, but
a shot that effectively put them in position to win
(15:31):
the game. He's been between the nd season tournament run
that he had last year, even the conference finals run
last year, which didn't really showcase his high end scoring
as often as it could have been, but it showcase
a lot of what his playmaking talent is. This is
this was a crash course for anybody who hasn't really
been around the pacers to understand just how gifted a
(15:52):
ceiling Tyrese Haliburton has. Aaron Ei Smith, I want to
talk about a couple other pacers and Den we'll talk
a little bit big picture on the series and then
we'll get to Jackson in our NBA Finals preview, so
I thought, aaron Ne Smith, you know, this is the
wear and tear impact that he brings to the table
with his ball pressure. There have been stretches in this
(16:13):
series where Brunson has scored on him and made it
look easy, right. There are even a couple possessions tonight
where he scored on him and made it look easy.
But he's a big, strong, physical point of attack defender
that never stops coming at you, never stops picking me
up full court, never start like you know, we've talked
a lot about body angles with respect to Jada McDaniels
and the Shae Gilds Alexander matchup, and kind of like
opening up his stance and like creating these easy driving lanes.
(16:36):
You watched Nee Smith. He is squared up with punts
in every time. He's like, you're not gonna get an
easy drive. You're going to have to shake me. You're
gonna have to get way off to that. You're gonna
have to go way around me, or you're gonna have
to break me down with the move because I'm squared
up and I'm right in your chest and I'm right
in your face the entire time, flying over screens and
(16:56):
refusing to give up those switches. In that fourth quarter,
Brunson was like a non factor offensively as they leaned
on those crazy running catch and shoot Michale Bridges threes,
which haven't gone in all postseason outside of a handful
of times. I don't understand why that was such a
high volume option for the Nick Slate, Like there was
(17:20):
a lack of assertion, a lack of aggression from Brunson
that I would credit Aaron Ee Smith with. I think
he worked. I think he's Warren Brunson down over the
course of the series, and for the first time in
this entire postseason, to my recollection, we had a crunch
time period where Jalen Brunson was a non factor or
at least not a factor in a good way, and
(17:40):
so I just wanted to credit Aeronie Smith for his defense.
Ben Matherin. We've talked about Ben Matherin a lot over
the course of this postseason run as being one of
the more high volume scorers for Indiana relative to the
minutes that he plays, and he's had a rough series,
but like one of the things I talked about before
the series is like he doesn't put up, you know,
massive box score numbers per se, but on a per
(18:02):
minute basis. Coming into the series, he was the highest
score for the Pacers per thirty six coming into the
to the Eastern Conference Finals in just twelve minutes of
play tonight, twenty points. With his downhill athleticism as a slasher,
as a cutter, as a transition threat, as an offensive
rebounder crasher, there were offensive rebounds that he didn't even
(18:24):
get but that he caused just by virtue of being
a wrecking ball flying downhill into the lane. He was
profoundly impactful in this game and probably was a little
bit of a palate cleanser for him after what was
a rough series up to this point. The Knicks have
the ability to play well in this matchup. I was
thinking about it during that first half run when they
(18:46):
rotate and they keep Indiana in front, and they chase
him off the three point line and they force him
to play one on one. More often than not, they
can have moments where they control the series because Brunson
and Kat are like better one on one players. They're
they're they're better at just like breaking down the defense
when the defense is rotated and loaded up right, like
(19:08):
when they when they when there isn't that easy opening,
And so you'll see these stretches where it's like, oh, man,
the Knicks got three four stops in a row, and
it's like two brunts and floaters and a cat driving
and one and or a draws a double team that
gets swung around, and all of a sudden, you're like, man,
the Knicks are moving a little bit. But again, they
just cannot sustain that at any point in this series,
(19:29):
not in any real way. It's like they'll have these
quarters and bursts. And by the way, that's what it
was like in the Celtics series. It was like short
bursts of greatness that put them over the top. Same
thing in the Pistons series. There were two games in
that series where the Pistons had control in the fourth
quarter and lost it because of a Knicks burst like
they're they're burst their ceiling. As I mentioned at off
(19:51):
the top of the show, you could argue the Knicks
ceiling is every bit as high as the Pacers, maybe
even higher depending on who you ask, right, but like,
it doesn't matter if you can't sustain, and the Indiana
Pacers play like the Pacers far more than the Knicks
play like the best version of themselves way too often tonight,
just not picking up the ball in transition, giving up
(20:12):
an easy swing pass and transition for a three bad
floor balance leading to a leak out one on one
opportunity where Shiacham's just just you know, laying one or
two counter moves against the back pedaling defender and getting
an easy layup or botching coverages. There was like a
stretch at the beginning of the game where the Pacers
just had to run a three man action of any kind,
whether it was like a stack pick and roll or
(20:33):
a wedge pick and roll or something along those lines,
or double drag, and just like whatever they did, it
just there was a dude wide open at the three
point line, whether it was the ball handler because no
one picked him up, or they switched the ball handler
but left one of the screeners slipping, Like the attention
to detail on defense all season long for the Knicks
wasn't there, and when they needed it to be there
for them in this postseason run, it wasn't there. And ultimately,
(20:55):
if you're gonna win in the postseason at the highest level,
you've got to be more disciplined in detail or and
to defense. The Knicks worn't, and that's gonna be the
thing that stands in the way this year. The series
is over because the Knicks need to win three games
in a row and the Pacers are just flatly a
better basketball team, Like there's no there's no bit of
(21:16):
information we've received at any point this season that would
lead me to believe that the Knicks could sustain the
level they need to sustain to beat the Pacers three
times in a row. I'd only give them about a
thirty percent chance to win Game five. That's a good chance.
I wouldn't be surprised necessarily if the Knicks won in
Game five. But the problem is, historically my experience, teams
that seem to lack belief in their ability to actually win,
(21:38):
like they don't actually think they can go on the
road and win, then they'll end up punting because why
and just emotionally mentally involuntarily punting it, not quitting, but
just there's a natural like do we really want to
like grind out this big game five so that we
can go back to India and get or ass kicked.
(22:00):
There's like a little bit of there's a little bit
of that kind of natural oh man, like we can't
actually beat these guys. I've seen it a few times
in this postseason where you just see a team that
just like they feel like they blew their chance to
win the series. And yeah, they have their home game
with a chance to extend the series, but what's the point,
you know? So again, we're going to find out about
the Knicks and their basketball character if they win in
(22:20):
Game five, and it'll tell us a lot about whether
or not they want to go home or if they
want to, you know, go on vacation, if they want
to go on vacation, or if they want to try
to win this thing. And uh, and I give them
certainly a chance. But I my guess right now is
that the Pacers close this out in five. I think
the Knicks have had their motivations app after what was
a disappointing h end to this particular game.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
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Speaker 2 (23:16):
All right, guys, we're gonna bring Jackson on. So what
I would like to do here, because Jackson has put
a great deal of thought into this, I want to
just get Jackson's take. Basically, the idea is to set
the stage. I have said on the show that I
think the Thunder would beat up on the Pacers or
the Knicks if they went to the finals. And we've
(23:37):
had some discussion about it on the show centering around
game plan, which I'm sure Jackson will mention, but I
am like leaning towards OKC and five, maybe even four.
So I want to give. I want to give Jackson
a chance to make the case for why he thinks
at least you're you're I'm guessing you're saying, at least
you expect a longer, more competitive series.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Yeah, I do think okay, se should be a substantial favorite,
and I would pick them to win the series. I
just think that the Patriots have a chance, have a
build of a team and have some key attributes that
make them potentially able to give the Thunder some problems
to win a few games.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
And it mainly comes down to three things.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
One they They and Haliburton in general, as we've discussed
a lot, do not turn the basketball over.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
They are bottom five.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
In the league and you know team turnovers on offensive
turnovers and Halle you know fifteen assist no turnovers tonight
is evidence of how lethal that can be, especially against
a team like the Thunder that forces if the most
turnovers in the league, play thrives in transition.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
As we've discussed.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Second thing, the Pacers. I haven't seen a team in
a while that are this committed to punishing smalls in
switches with with with player who's not their best their
lead guy. Right, most teams they get a switch. They
want to take Brunston and have him go against whoever
your worst defender is, Tatum, have him.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Go against where They're like, no, we don't even care.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
We don't need Halle to iso kat. If we got Pascal,
if Brunton is guarding passcal and to switch, we're going
to give him.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
The ball over and over and over and over and over.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
They are so so committed to it, it's it's really
it's really impressive. And the third thing is they this
is sort of more of a game plan potentially specific
things as we've discussed, depending on how Okac guards. The
Pacers move the ball as well as any team this season,
(25:29):
as well as any team I can remember in the
last you know, since maybe the Warriors, they move that frickin'
basketball and the Okac Thunder in their normal defense that
they run that they haven't really changed to this point.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Maybe they'll change against Indiana, but they haven't really changed much.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
They that's how you beat them is with is with
a lot of passes, a lot of ball ball movement,
getting your advantage and saying we want to we get
our first advantage, Let's find the best possiblesh out that we.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Can get out of that advantage.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Now, if the Thunder change up their defensive game plan
and say, just score as many points as you can
Tyree Taliburton, that you know, changes the calculus a little bit.
But it feels like the Pacers have offensively, at least theoretically,
have some of the things that are required to beat
a defense as good as the Thunders great breakdown.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I think the thing that you hit on that is
especially important is the way that the Pacers attack switches.
It's different than what like Tatum and Brown were doing.
They're not like, oh, we have this six foot tall
guy in space, let me face him up from twenty
four feet from the basket. It's like, it's no like
Turner in particular, is like beating switches at the rim.
(26:38):
Like at the rim, He's like, it's whether it's an
offensive rebound or it's put a deep seal, it's at
the rim. And then Siakam will occasionally go to like
a right shoulder fader, a left shoulder fade, but he's
attacking those mismatches very close to the rim, and that
is going to be a key part there. Now, the
let's go through some of the specifics. So the the
(27:00):
passing the ball through Oklahoma City's defense. Part. This is
where it gets fascinating because I actually do think there's
a solid chance that Marked I trust Mark Dagenel as
a very smart basketball coach to know that what Denver did,
what Minnesota has done in terms of sagging and forcing
(27:20):
Shaye to shoot over the top and to make passing
reads is the best way. Uh it excuse me with
the uh, with the with these other teams and how
they have been really aggressive for it, aggressive against like Minnesota,
like picking up ant full court, uh, making them pass
against blitzes in ball pressure and Julius Randall getting double
(27:42):
teamed on every post up like that worked against them.
And I think he knows that Indiana is a better
passing team that doesn't turn the basketball over. But I
trust Dagonall to know that it may not be the
best game plan. But I also wouldn't be surprised if
he tried it anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if he was, like,
(28:03):
let's just see if they shit their pants, you know, like,
let's Halliburton's never played in the finals before. Let's give
him lou Dort physical defense at the point of attack.
Let's just see what happens, right, And I think the
main key there is going to be if Indiana does
have success against it, will he pivot quickly? Now to
your point about having it be a longer series, Let's
(28:26):
say that they come out in game one and it's
four aggressive overhelp leaving week side skips open and the
Pacers steel game one. Then there's a really good chance
this goes six because then we're probably getting at least two,
if not three, Indiana home games. And I wouldn't be
shocked if they got one of those games, and now
(28:46):
it's a six game series. So to your point, like
that that I can see absolutely playing a role. My
main contention is that if he does make the game
plan change, so again you load up alongside Tyres, Haliburton
is just rifling skip passes over the top. They're playing
with an advantage. I do think with the double two.
(29:06):
I do think with the post ups and the switch
attacking with Turner and Siakam, I think that he'll double.
I think that he'll double immediately, and I think it'll
be a bigger challenge for Siakam and Turner to deal
with those double teams than it is in some of
these other matchups. I mean to put it simply, we've
seen a lot of people, including Jokic kind of like
(29:27):
fall apart. Jogs had a three game stretch where he
was bad against Okay see, so like there's a certain
there's a certain amount of that there too. My main
contention is that inevitably, I think this series devolves down
to we're staying home regarding Haliburton one on one, were
guarding actions two on two, three man actions, three on three,
(29:48):
we're communicating through switches, We're switching everything. You try scoring
on us one on one over and over again, and
they're just not the team that's gonna make as many
mistakes as the Knicks made. And that that's where I
think it gets a little. It gets a little tricky.
But to your point, all it takes is Oklahoma City
bringing their base game plan, Halliburton passing through it, not
(30:09):
turning the ball over uh Siakam, and Turner doing damage
against switches. You steal a game in Oka see early
in the series before the game plan shifts, then all
of a sudden, you win a game in Indiana off
the strength of your home crowd, and to your point,
anything can happen so if it's let's say it's two
to two going back to Oklahoma City, what if Oklahoma
City shits their pants in a bunch of a bunch
(30:31):
of big ways in the finals. That's a great point.
So so yeah, I mean, so what do you think,
like what, let me just put it to you this way.
If you had to guess how okay See guards and
how quickly Mark Dagnall pivots, what would you expect to happen?
Speaker 4 (30:51):
I expect dort On Hollie to start both because he's
the best on ball defender option as well as he's
so strong that you think you if you're the thunder,
you're talking yourself into. We can survive a Pascal switch
on blue door if we feel like switching, we can
survive that. So I think that's sort of like the
(31:12):
big question right away is are they going to switch
any of those pick and rolls with Siakam or anybody?
And do they feel comfortable with any any of their
sort of wing guard defenders in those switches.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
But it's going to be interesting to see. Okaysee has
so many guys, they got so many defensive bodies.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
They ran a lineup at one point in the second
half yesterday that I don't think they do that often.
They do sometimes where they had Cason Wallace Russo and
Dorton Mfloor at the same time, I'm like, what are
you supposed to do as an offense when those three
dudes are defending?
Speaker 3 (31:41):
You're one year two when you're three. It's like that
is that is terrifying.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
So that and I do think the doubling is going
to happen for sure once Pascal and Miles inevitably, you know,
punish some of those switches and we will see. It'll
be very interesting to see if Aarony Smith can stay hot,
he's very streaky shooter, and if Andrew Nemahard can can
stay as playoff Klay Thompson because I looked at the
(32:06):
numbers the other day and he shoots something like thirty
two percent from three in the regular season and over
his career in the playoffs he's over fifty percent. So
if he can keep hitting over fifty perent of their threes,
like they got a shot for real or not even
not a shot, but they got a shot to make
it competitive.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
I think they got a chot to make competitive. If
those guys.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
Can can be can can can be can knock down
more shots than Cason Wallace lou Dort.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
One of the things we haven't even talked about yet
that I think is worth mentioning. By the way, guys
like my I have not done any prep yet for
this potential series, so I haven't watched gone back to
rewatch their regular season matchups. I could very well change
my mind. My initial gut feeling was that the Timberwolves
had beat Oklahoma City. I gave him a slight edge
(32:51):
in my initial gut feeling. Then I went to watch
the film and I was like, oh, like, I don't
think they're gonna be able to get Julius Randall the
ball in places where he can score. And I don't
think they're going to be able to go to n
Osriy on the block. So you know, maybe I changed
my mind after seeing some stuff the Let's talk through
the Pacers on defense in this matchup for a second.
One of the things that I found interesting in the
(33:12):
film of the Timberwolves Thunder series is Jada McDaniels has
been awful on Shae, like straight up awful, Like this
the second straight year where he's been like straight up
non effective on ball against a Star in the conference finals. Now,
(33:32):
my theory is is that it's matchup based in the
sense that I think Luca is way too big and
strong for him, and I think Shay is too fast
for him. And so there's this other conversation to have,
which is like our Wyery six to eight defensive wings
just like not versatile enough to succeed in the postseason
if you're.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Not strong enough for one guy and you're not quick
enough for another guy.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, exactly, And like it's bad because, like I would argue,
those two series have swung on Jada complete inability to
make the Stars uncomfortable from the other team. But and
then looking at the Pacers, it's probably gonna be Nie
Smith and Nie Smith, like we talked about earlier, Jayden
(34:15):
is we just we were talking about it in the show.
Like Jayden's stances have been so frustrating for me watching
on film as he's like conceding driving angles to Shay,
and I think Nie Smith, if he can square them up,
navigate screens well, keep him in front, force him to
speed over the top shooter without them having to overdo
the help. But like there were a lot of stretches
Intonight's game where the rotation, like the defensive backside rotations
(34:38):
for the Pacers are super impressive. Siakim had three or
four crazy week side closeouts on og And Andobi where
he chased him off the line like an Og hit
a fucking crazy step back over him on one of them,
but like his ability to help and then rotate there,
you could see I could talk myself into the Pacers
being an interesting defensive matchup for the Thunder because Turner
(34:59):
can p the rim. Siakam's an excellent week sad rotational
player like even Halliburton I think is underrated as kind
of like a dude does his job on defense kind
of guy. And then what if Neie Smith just slides
his feet well and contains against Shay. I'm gonna go
ahead and say, Jackson, that you've convinced me I think
(35:22):
that I think that the Pacers have a better chance
to make it competitive against the Thunder.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Then I was giving them credit for that, said, I
would still be really surprised if they won the series. Uh.
But yeah, I think you're right about the fact that
the Pacers are just a really good team that you
could argue just Indiana being in the right place all
the time, as like a help and recover rotation team
will inherently cause a bunch of twenty two year olds
(35:50):
to suck in the finals one night.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
So this is the other thing I was gonna say
that I forgot. It does feel like because OKAC is
so smart and so fast, and they're so connected on
both ends, and you really have to be well connected
as a unit to beat them, which the Timberwolves are not.
The Timberwolves are the farthest thing from well connected. They're
very talented, but they got Julius Randa and Rudy Gobert.
They're not gonna be well connected, right And so I
(36:13):
think the Pacers are superly synergistically in flow right now,
and that is gonna go a long way against a
team as smart.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
That's a good point. I think that. I think that
that is the key there is like they're older, they're
more experienced. They there's a version of this where they
just do all the right things in two NBA Finals
games and the twenty two year olds just kind of
struggle in the moment. So there's a version of that too.
And and to your point, like if they run and
(36:42):
they move the ball, well, they're gonna get open threes,
especially against Oklahoma City's based game plan. It's gonna be interesting.
I'm excited to dive into the film. Obviously, we'll wait
until both series actually finish before we do that, but
that's gonna be. That's gonna be a really fascinating series.
I'm super interested in it. But Jackson, thanks for taking
the time to prep all of that. What do you
say we just head over the game to a playback?
(37:04):
Sound good to you? Cool? All right, guys, That's all
we have for tonight is always been. Sincerely appreciate you
guys for supporting us and supporting the show. I'm headed
over to playback again. That's playback dot tv slash OOPS
tonight will be taking callers, taking questions, stuff like that.
As always, we appreciate you guys for supporting us and
supporting the show. We will see you tomorrow night for
Game five of the Thunder and the Timberwolves. What's up, guys?
(37:26):
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. They would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it. The volume
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Colin Cowherd
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