May 28, 2025 • 37 mins
Colin wants Pacers guard Tyrese Haliburton to get the respect he's earned after a historic performance to put Indiana up 3-1 against the Knicks in the Eastern Conference Finals. He believes Aaron Rodgers and the Steelers deserve each other at this point after Terry Bradshaw's recent comments about Pittsburgh's quarterback situation. Colin also talks to Fox Sports NFL analyst Greg Olsen about the expectations for Bears quarterback Caleb Williams under new head coach Ben Johnson
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Oh, it is a Wednesday. We are in Chicago. It's live.
It's the Herd. Wherever you may be and however you
may be listening. Thanks for joining us, making us part
of your day. Greg Olsen stops by today. Gotta tell you,
I J Mac. I know you love those knicks. But
(00:52):
Halliburton's doing what he did to Milwaukee and Cleveland. He's
doing the same thing. I'm fine. He is he is,
he is really something.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm going to be a little ornery today, Colin, Well,
what's it.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Season's over.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
It's done, Pacers, Thunder feel the excitement in the finals?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well, listen this series. This series has come down to
two players, the two point guards, and the most overrated
player in the league has bested the clutch player in
the league Tyrese Halliburton a performance for the Ages. It
doesn't even sound right. Thirty two points, fifteen assists, ten rebounds,
(01:33):
zero turnovers. Never been done in the playoffs against the Knicks,
team known for defense, with the legendary defensive coach. I
said it yesterday. Brunson may be the better pure closer,
but Halliburton's a starter, the best middle reliever, and a closer.
It's the entire package. And I don't really see this
(01:53):
as a New York failure. It's another close game. I
see it as the ascension of a rock star in
this league. This was Tyrese Halliburton's magnus opus. The Pacers
are now eleven and three in playoffs. They're eleven and three.
They're only three losses. Otherwise they're eleven and zer. They're
(02:16):
only three losses are game three losses when they lead
two to zero, so they take their foot like any
pro athlete would, a little off the gas. That's it.
Otherwise they're eleven to Z and the Pacers the front
office has done a great job to surround Halliburton with
players that can run with him, and it's empowering. I mean,
(02:39):
how good does Pascal Sayakham, Look now, I mean, what's
amazing about Halliburton. He doesn't even lead the Pacers in
usage rate. That's insane. For thirty two points and fifteen
assists and again no turnovers. With Brunson the great, a
(03:01):
lot of times Nick players are standing around watching him
work his guy and get that great shot, and you
can feel uninvolved. I mean, Halliburton had thirty two last night.
I don't remember that much scoring. I remember the pace,
I remember the assists. Indy did what they do. They
turned that into a track meet. And every game in
(03:23):
which they've controlled pace they've won, not just against the Knicks,
against Milwaukee and against Cleveland and now against the Knicks.
I still like New York a lot. I think they
need to tweak it. I'd go Katie over kat but
I love Indy. This is about Indy very rarely if
Halliburton is on the floor. Do they even get bad
(03:44):
half court possessions. That's hard in the NBA, and that
second half got a little bit sloppy. But they're They're
a high tempo up and down ball movement. Who would
not want to play with Halliburton. It feels Indy feels
like one of those young tech companies that are like
collaborative and empowering, and you can bring your dog to
work and people want to work there forever. That's what
(04:07):
they feel like. I mean the fact that even one
NBA player suggested forget voted, suggested that Halliburton is overrated.
I mean again, look at Pascal Siakam, who's always been
a good player. He looks like he should be first
team All NBA. Look at Rick Carlyle, a forgotten coach.
Now he looks like he's an innovator and one of
(04:28):
the more creative offensive geniuses. And I've known Rick for years.
He's always been an excellent coach and a great guy.
But this is what Magic or Michael or Halliburton can
do to a coach. He accentuates all your skills as
a coach. The reality too with Indy here, New York
may be better, but you could argue they've peaked. Indy's
(04:51):
only getting better. They have a very friendly cap sheet.
They have to figure out what to do with a
good player, not great Miles Turner. They're not quite sure
what to do. But this is a young and improving
and ascending roster that quickly and easily disposed of Milwaukee,
favored Milwaukee, of favored Cleveland, and now of the Knicks,
(05:14):
and here's Haliburton after.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Just time me aggressive, trying to respond. I felt like
I left the team down in Game three, so it's
important for me to come out here and just make plays.
And you know, Guy's put me in a position to
make plays and trying to play my game, and uh, Matt, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
A big win for us.
Speaker 6 (05:29):
Did Dad in the building have anything to.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
Do with that?
Speaker 6 (05:31):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Passing the building man makes it that much more sweet.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And just something to remind you of how special last
night was. I'm just I'm totally taken. But the fact
he has no turnovers to play it at this pace,
never turn it over. Thirty points, fifteen assists, and ten
rebounds in a single game in playoff history. The other
players who have done it are MVPs and champions, Oscar
(06:01):
Robertson twice and the Joker in Denver. That's what we're
talking about, and he was voted by players a handful
is the most overrated player in the league. Again, the
NBA fans and media too often celebrate dynamic. What they
don't celebrate. Remember, Lebron used to get crushed for this
(06:21):
because he wouldn't always take the final shot. And Lebron,
who I defended, would say, other people are open. That's
what Phil Jackson finally finally convinced Michael Jordan to do.
Get it to Packson, get it to curve. If guys
are open, get the better open shot. It was when
Michael finally embraced that that he became a legend. Lebron
(06:45):
did it out of high school. That's Halliburton. He'll drop thirty,
have fifteen assists, and you don't remember the points as
much as the assists and the pace. Everybody on this
team is playing a notch above who they are. I
love Carlisle, but that's about Haliburt. Okay, So Terry Bradshaw
(07:07):
Fox Sports, longtime former steel a great four rings, was
asked on a radio station, we've got the we've got
the audio here about his former team of Steeters potentially
signing Aaron Rodgers.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
That's a joke. He shouldn't they That is just to me,
is a joke.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
What are you going to bring him in for one year?
Speaker 6 (07:26):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
They mean?
Speaker 6 (07:27):
That's right? No, man, that guy needs to stay in California.
Speaker 7 (07:32):
Thank you Jun Barking and.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
Risk the gods out there.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Uh by the way, I I've had an epiphany. I'll
get to that in a second. So it should be
noted as Aaron doesn't have a team yet. Josh Allen
on a team with much less turnover, the Buffalo Bills,
Josh Allen in his prime, better at this point, arguably better,
ever more committed, is that his team's ot a Aaron
(08:00):
doesn't have a team. I was thinking about this morning.
Aaron Rodgers and the Steelers have something in common. Neither
take the duty of quarterback with great urgency. Both the
Steelers and Aaron have a Yeah we'll get to it eventually. Yeah, yeah,
I'll sign with the team. Eventually, We'll figure out the
(08:20):
quarterback eventually. I mean, think about San Francisco and Kyle Shanahan.
They just signed Brock pretty to a massive deal, and
yet this year in the draft, Kyle says, I want
another quarterback, and they draft a kid out of Indiana,
a little bit of a semi you know, Brock pretty
clone ish a lot of snaps in college. They're already
looking for another quarterback. The Green Bay Packers. You all
(08:41):
know this. They draft quarterbacks three years before they let
him on the field. The Pittsburgh Steelers lost their left tackle.
They're two quarterbacks, they're top receiver and a really good
running back in Najie Harris. And their answer is, eh,
I think Aaron's our quarterback. We're not pre sure. I mean,
(09:02):
I mean the Steelers have become the sixty six year
old guy who's never put a penny in his four
to one K and is trying to convince us Listen,
I've got a plan. Believe you me. I'm all good here.
So at this point I have an epiphany. I have
been saying Aaron and the Steelers is a bad fit.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It's a great fit. I mean, in lives, what's the rule?
You got to find somebody that matches your energy, the
Steelers at quarterback. We'll get to it, Aeron On committing eh,
maybe later. I am here for it. The Steelers and
Aaron Rodgers are a little Rodman Carmen Electra. They're a
little Tom Arnold, Roseanne barr Angelina, Jolie, Billy Bob. I
(09:45):
am here for the dysfunction. I mean, the whole time
I've been like, this is a weird fit.
Speaker 8 (09:52):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
For the record, there's a reason the Steelers now are
near the top of the NFL in longest playoff wind droughts.
They're at eight years now. They're not the Dolphins of
the Raiders of the Jets, but they're creeping up the
most important position. And it always was quarterback. It was
always a head coach quarterback league. But more than ever,
it's much easier to protect who's going to win divisions,
(10:14):
especially in the Steelers AFC. Who's got the best quarterback
and does he have a good offensive coach? And do
they treat the position with importance and urgency? Steelers don't,
Aaron doesn't. I'm wrong. It's a match made in heaven,
all right, J Mack. We have a lot of stuff today.
Greg Olsen stopping by a really interesting story here in Chicago.
(10:36):
So they're having the OTAs, and you know, Caleb has
said I want to be coached hard. Apparently Ben Johnson
is coaching him hard. So we'll get to that. I
know you're a little bummed out about the Knicks, but
does it make it feel better that you are witnessing
an all time series by an ascending star.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
No, not at all. How all of a sudden, there's
major issues with the Knicks.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
This Brunts and Towns combo through four games together on
the court, it's minus twenty four. All of a sudden,
the spotlights on the Knicks send It's like, WHOA Do
these two even work together again next year? Or have
the Pacers unlocked something that the Celtics did not see
that the Pistons didn't see.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
And now it's like, well, do we keep Towns or
do we move them?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Like I'm a little nervous for the next this offseason,
I think they, honest shatter is going to be back
and play pretty quickly. If they lose Game five.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, I honest would obviously make them better. I don't
know if they have the pieces, but I think KD
is a much easier list. And I've said this for
the last three days, is that this series is it's
actually can be great because I don't think that I
said this the last two days. The Nicks are not
a championship team. They've got holes, and a better team
is showing you what the holes are. It's not a
gaping hole, it's that they need to catch and shoot score.
(11:57):
KD not a guy that needs the ball to score
and moves Brunson out of the way.
Speaker 8 (12:02):
Kat.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
The reason they don't work together a they're poor defenders,
so simultaneously Halliburton is abusing them if they're ever both
on the court. And secondly, Kat needs the ball. He's
one of the few bigs that gets the ball out
top and then drives in. Doesn't really need a pass
or an assist. He can kind of break it down
and do it himself. The problem is then Brunson is
inactive in the offensive half court set. So it's I think,
(12:26):
what happens when you lose? Why did we lose? That's
that's what a good NFL team does. We're a good
NBA team. What is it? It's not the coach, It's
not Brunson, Brunsinger, Brunsinger lead. You've got to find something.
Mitchell Robinson's actually great for what he is. Hartenstein would
have been great. But Cat doesn't work for two reasons.
And it's on display.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
You say it's the coach. I mean they're gonna have options.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
The Knicks can say, hey, let's bring in Katie, let's
go after your honest or they could say we love
our team, let's run it back with Michael Malone's head
coach instead of Thibodeau.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I don't think that's the sole All these games have
come down to the last four minutes.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And they're losing them. They blew game one like you.
I don't know, man, Maybe I'm just a despond.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
You don't blow out Lamar Jackson or John Harbaugh because
you lose close to the bills of the Chiefs. You
try to find other areas to improve. You don't get
rid of your foundational bedrock A plus pieces Tibbs isn't
the issue. The issue is the roster construction. Remember Bridges
has been really good. Towns solved an issue. They needed
(13:30):
a second scorer, and they didn't trust Julius Randall, who,
by the way, can disappear in spots. Kat is a
more natural offensive player, so he was an upgrade over Randall.
But it's always been steps in this league. So it's
always about find the coach for your star, and then
it's can you find complimentary pieces. Kat was an upgrade
(13:50):
over Randal KD is an upgrade over based on styles
catch and shoot, He's an upgrade over Cat.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
And so you're saying, Jason, I'm down. Just Tatum's out
next year.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
It's basically Pacers, Nicks, maybe the Pistons and the Caves
in the East.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
And why can't the Nicks get right back to try
it to the finals?
Speaker 8 (14:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
No need Yeah, it's just been a series of smart
steps Randall to Cat and now try to get You know,
you're gonna have to give up if you give up
Cat to get KD And I'm the Knicks. I want
a draft pick. I want something beyond that. It's just
not a it's a it's not because Cat is younger,
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(14:32):
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Speaker 2 (14:54):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and noon Eastern a em Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Caleb Williams, their USC quarterback, struggled as a rookie. They
wanted him for him to improve on two things. Number
one body language and number two pre snap procedure. So
I've always been I think body language is a really
big deal. I don't care if you're a mayor. I
don't care if you're a CEO. I don't care if
you're a quarterback. I'm glad this is mentioned, and I'm
(15:25):
glad Ben Johnson cares about this. So this is according
to Albert Breer. They want to improve on body language
and they want to improve on pre snap improvement. So
I think those are totally legitimate. In fact, one of
the rare criticisms I had of Caleb in college he
could be moody. I saw it when he played Oregon
State up in court Vallas. He eventually won the game
(15:47):
with a great dot down the sideline to Jordan Addison,
but on the sideline he had to be counseled and
consoled by Lincoln Riley. He got a little bit moody
and kind of checked out, And that's okay. He's an
emotional kid. I think ideally you'd want your quarterback to
be Jalen Hurtz stoic. You could be fiery, but you
can't be poudy. You can be aggressive, but you can't
(16:08):
have an attitude. And I thought that Oregon State game.
It was a little bit of hey man, we need
you to check back in body language matters, so I
think it needs to be worked on. He came back
in that game. By the way, there's the winning touchdown
that Jordan Addison the pre snap concerns. I think Heady
had a better head coach his rookie year in the NFL.
If he had inherited Kyle Shanahan, we wouldn't talk about that.
(16:29):
I think some of that comes with experience. I mean,
Mahomes had Andy Reid. It still took him two and
three years, so I think he'll get better at that.
I think a lot of that was just he didn't
have a very good coaching staff and at USC, Caleb Williams.
I don't think his last year at USC trusted the
O line. He shouldn't have, and so it was a
lot of hero ball and him ad libbing. And I
(16:52):
don't think Lincoln Riley necessarily trusted the O line, so
he let Caleb Williams ad lib and call his own shots.
I think he'll be fine there. What I do find
with a lot of the great quarterbacks of all time,
Peyton Manning's like this, They think like accountants precision details
almost Mathey, Caleb's a creative. He's a creative. Mahomes is
(17:15):
a creative, and that's fine. It takes a special coach
to coach a creative. It takes Andy Reid. Okay, is
Ben Johnson Andy Reid? I don't know. Is Ben Johnson
a great quarterback coach as a head coach like Sean
Payton or Kyle Shanahan or Andy Reid? I don't know.
I think so, but I know that Caleb Williams said
(17:37):
I want to be coached hard. And this is interesting.
This comes from Adam h Oge Adam Hoges, I think so.
At the OTAs the story is that Ben Johnson has
been ripping Cole Comet for some mental mistakes. He also
it's interesting, according to Adam that what appeared to be
(17:58):
the best throw of the day when Caleb hit DJ
Moore deep down the left sideline, it was probably more
like a deep out, and Caleb came back toward Ben Johnson,
the rookie coach, and Ben Johnson said, yeah, you can't
do that. That's coaching. So Caleb Williams I was expecting.
I was hoping that Ben Johnson's impact would be immediate.
(18:20):
The impact has not quite been immediate. So again, I
think when you're coaching creatives, and Lamar is a creative,
Mahomes is creative. Steve Young was one of the first
I ever saw that. I'm like, oh, Brett farr was
a bit of a creative. They're harder to coach. Go
ask Mike Holmgren what coaching Brett Farve is like, you
(18:42):
got to embrace it. It's a fine line between John Gruden,
a's John Gruden when he was an assistant about coaching Farv.
It's really really hard. It takes a great coach, not
a good coach, and Caleb didn't have that last year.
You hope he has it, but Matt Hasselbeck says, don't
expect miracles in September.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
I don't think you know right away.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
I mean Troy Aikman started out really poorly his rookie year,
Like they didn't do well. Peyton Manning, you know, I
think he might have led the league in interceptions. Eli
Manning get bench for Kurt Warner, Like there's all these
stories of young quarterbacks.
Speaker 8 (19:19):
He doesn't start out well.
Speaker 7 (19:21):
At the end of the year, I think a decision
will be made on him one way or the other,
and it's just fair to say, if you watch the film,
he's off to a very very slow start.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Last year, j Max said the Barrels will be the
most interesting team in the league, and they were for
about four games. I actually do think because we now
have a young quarterback with a really sharp offensive coach.
And I think everybody needs a king maker in life.
You could be a mayor, you could be a lawyer.
Everybody needs a king maker. Bo Nicks got his, Jaden
(19:54):
Daniels have, Cliff Kingsbury got his, Caleb had his at
Oklahoma USC, he had Lincoln Riley, he had his kingmaker.
And so to pull all that talent out now, can
Ben do it? Can Ben do it with the Bears?
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
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Speaker 1 (21:12):
Hour two. Indiana Pacers have taken control of the series.
Indiana has played fourteen playoff kids. They're zero to three
in game threes when they lead to OZHO. When they've
taken control of the series, winning on the road at Milwaukee,
(21:32):
at Cleveland, at New York, they go into the other
team's place steal both games. They come home foot on
the gas, let's off a little, and they've lost one
game in each series, Game three, that's it. Otherwise they're
eleven and zero. In the urgency games games one and two, four, five, six,
(21:53):
they're eleven and zer and Halliburton statline last night maybe
the most impressive thing I've ever seen in my life.
Thirty two fifteen ten and no turnovers. That is beyond
hyper efficiency. That is insane. That'd be like an NFL quit.
That's what Jaden Daniels did last year, but he would
go like thirty of thirty four with no turnovers. What
(22:17):
it's just, it's in against the defensive coach and a
defensive team. And the other thing is and you saw
this with Magic Johnson. You see this with a truly
great point guard. You see this with Chris Paul. Remember
when Chris Paul was in LA, like Blake Griffin was
like is he a top three or four player in
the league? And DeAndre Jordan was nothing but buckets. And
then Chris Paul leaves those two players and they're not
(22:39):
the same players. You see all the holes in their game.
I like Pascal Siakam, he looks all NBA first team
playing with Aliburton thirty two, fifteen ten and no turnovers.
Here's Ali after.
Speaker 10 (22:51):
I feel like we're making up stats at at one
point to make me look better. I was just trying
to be aggressive, man, just trying to play my best,
you know. I feel like I let the team down
in Game three. Felt like I could have been so
much better. So I feel like I responded the right
way today.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
The only time I haven't liked Indiana in this series
was when they had Halliburton off the floor end of
the third quarter in Game three and the start of
the fourth and they lost their rhythm. And this is
a rhythm team, and it's a rhythm team because of Halliburton.
And then he came back in, he got him back
on track, but it just it felt like they lost
their mojo. So like every time he goes to the bench,
(23:32):
if Brunson goes to the bench, Kat can score more.
The Knicks don't necessarily go into a cave. Halliburton's off
the floor. It's like it's like white knuckle time. You're like, okay,
all right, let's make sure this thing works. He is
all time spasih. I love watching him play, and I
think it's a great personality with that. Greg Olsen joining
us live fourteen years in the NFL, Fox Sports, Anna,
(23:53):
it's great, great broadcaster. By the way, tight End University
is back. It's fifth year in Nashville in h June
twenty three to the twenty second. I want to ask
you about that because part of what you do, which
I think is the most underdiscussed part of your sport,
is film study. And Caleb Williams was recently quoted talking
(24:14):
about the Bears, a team you played for and loved
playing for. He's like, yeah, I'd watched film alone, and
I don't you know, I'm not in those rooms. When
you hear that he watched film alone, what was your
interpretation of that. How's that land for you?
Speaker 8 (24:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 11 (24:31):
It lands as you would expect. It's just it's hard
for me to believe that that was the case. And
I'm not saying he's not being genuine. I've been in
three different organizations, multiple different head coaches, multiple different quarterbacks.
I've never heard of a guy not having the opportunity
to watch film with his position coach, let alone the quarterback,
(24:53):
not you know, between the quarterback coach, the offensive coordinator
someone there. It's hard for me to believe that the
organization would let their young rookie watch film by himself.
But with that being said, yeah, it is though an
element of the sport that there is a little bit
of a learning curve. I don't think most young guys
coming out of college, unless you just happen to be
(25:15):
playing for you know, the right coach, the right position,
coach coordinator, whoever at the college level, to teach you
the art of film studying. I think we just have
a joke like, we're not in here watching movies. Right.
There's a lot of guys that put the game on
play one and they just go play one, play two,
play three, and they just go through the sequence of
a game. You know, yes, you're watching film, Are you
(25:37):
really getting the tendencies and really know what you're looking
at to study? My experience is most guys have to
learn that. Most guys have to learn that over the career.
How I watched film in my fourteenth year was wildly
different than how I watched it my first and second year.
And I think it's up to the organization. It's up
to the coach, especially at the quarterback position, where there
(25:59):
is no greater responsibility than understanding not only everything of
what your team's doing, but of course what the opposing
team is doing defensively. So I can't imagine Ben Johnson's
gonna let that go on at all. So I think
for Caleb Williams and his development, the right guy now
is in control in Chicago, both over the team and
then obviously offensively with what Ben Johnson can do. But yeah,
(26:21):
when I read that report, I kind of did a ooh,
like true, not true, scales of truth whatever. There's always
probably two sides to every story. But just the fact
that that was even suggested is not a great is
not a great reflection of the organization for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
But by the way, did you and Cam, for instance,
film study Would you sit down with Cam and go, dude,
this guy, this guy in the flats week? Like, is
that a real thing?
Speaker 8 (26:48):
Oh? Absolutely? So we had a great routine, so it
was actually kind of fun.
Speaker 11 (26:52):
So most of the meetings from when we got there
in the morning were all controlled by the coaches. It
was small group meetings, offensive install then we'd have practice,
Then we'd have post practice review where we'd watch the
practice film. So there was opportunities to you know, hey, coach,
take a second, Cam, Here's why I ran this flat.
Speaker 8 (27:09):
Here's why.
Speaker 11 (27:10):
And you're watching practice film or you're watching and the
opportunity to go. But there's thirty five guys in the room,
it's not really the opportunity for the two of you
to have your own conversation. But then at the end
of the day when everything officially with the coaches ended,
the tight end and the quarterback room in Carolina, we're.
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Right next to each other.
Speaker 11 (27:26):
We literally shared a wall, so he'd be in his
room with some of the quarterbacks and I'd be doing
Sometimes I liked being by myself at the end of
the day, just for my own prep and notes and whatnot,
and I knew he was right next door, so I
would pop over and be like, Hey, I need you
to come take a look at this, and say, hey,
look at the way the safety's hips are. Are you
okay if I take this a couple of yards deeper,
am I going to throw off your timing? And most
(27:48):
of the time Cam was just like, get open, I'm good,
But then sometimes he'd be like, I can't hold it
that long or it messes up with my timing. Of
my footwork, or I don't like the way your body
language looks like there because you kind of fooled me.
I wasn't sure when you were going to come out
of your break. I need less at the top. So
like that dialogue in meetings on the field was NonStop.
(28:10):
And when you can play with one guy for as
long as we did over time, I knew his answer
before I even had to ask him, and vice versa
because we had talked through so many scenarios over so
many days, you know, for those nine years together.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
So Cam was a mover, Caleb's a mover. Cam Ward
is a mover like I like Cam a lot. And
I think Tennessee could be a playoff team. Tell the
audience when you do have Caleb Williams and he can
add lib Now, I think the Bears online is better.
He won't have to do it as much. But some
of these guys like Cam, cam Warden Caleb, they're just
naturally gifted. It's like if you have a great voice,
you sing in the shower, like that's just the reality
(28:46):
of their game. When you have a mobile quarterback, does
it make it harder for tight ends and does it
make it harder in film studies so much is that lib.
Speaker 11 (28:57):
Yeah, it's a great question. So I think what we're
seeing right now in the NFL is you can't play.
I should say with uncertainty, the vast majority of guys
cannot play NFL quarterback if you don't have some level
of improv right, some level of playing off script, off platform.
All the words, the buzzwords that get thrown around, but
(29:17):
the ability to buy time, escape pocket pressure and still
stay active as a quarterback and not always just rely
on being a runner, stay active as a passer. I
mean now you also can't only playoff script. You can't
only play improv quarterback at the NFL. There's no timing,
there's no rhythm. The tackles don't know your depth of
(29:37):
your drop, The guards don't know the depth of the pocket.
Am I blocking for you to be at five and
a half yards? Or are you going to be outside
the hash marks running with your life? If I'm a quarterback,
if I'm a wide receiver or a tight end, I
need to know at the top of my break when
I get my head around, Am I looking to find
you behind the center at seven yards? Or is there
a chance that you've already broken contained and you're outside
(29:58):
the pocket, and now I need to get too scramble drilled.
Speaker 8 (30:01):
So there is a balance to it all.
Speaker 11 (30:03):
You can't just stand in one spot and be a
statue in today's NFL, and you also can't just play
recess football running around.
Speaker 8 (30:11):
It's not sustainable.
Speaker 11 (30:12):
So I think that blend of don't take what's special
out of these guys, don't take it out of their game.
If you have the ability to move and improvise, encourage
them to do it, but just give them boundaries, give
them parameters of saying, Okay, I need you to hit
your fifth step of your drop and it's a progression
pass or it's a half field read or whatever the
play calls for. After you've exhausted all of that, if
(30:35):
the opportunity there is to extend and create plays outside
the rhythm of the game, We're never going to take
you away. But it can't be hit your back foot
and run around because we can't support you doing that
every single play from a protection and a route concept.
So there is a little give and take, and I
think that's something that Ben Johnson has proven. He's coached
(30:57):
multiple different types of quarterbacks. Guy in golf who really
was stationary in rhythm, in timing, get the ball out
of his hand. He will have a little bit of
a different flavor for a guy like Caleb, where he
does get that rhythm progression passer in the offense because
you need it, but then also encourage him to use
his athleticism because it is very challenging for defenses to
(31:19):
play off script and defend.
Speaker 8 (31:21):
That long.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Before I get to the tight end. You the tush push.
You know, as a guy that was a willing blocker.
My guess was you like it? Do you like the
tush bush?
Speaker 8 (31:34):
I do?
Speaker 11 (31:35):
I think it would be an extremely unfair and wrong
to Philadelphia, who has really some teams have done it
here and there. No one has even come remotely close
to doing it as efficiently as often and used it
as such a fabric of their offensive philosophy, from how
they manage third downs knowing they got a yard and
(31:55):
a half in their back pocket, how they call first
and second down plays knowing they have a fourth down
in their back pocket, goal to go situations like it
is a not just a play, it is really a
centerpiece of the entire fabric philosophy that Sirianni has built
with that offense in Jalen hurt. So I think to
remove that from a team who has found a play
that they're uniquely good at, just because the rest of
(32:18):
the league is tired of trying to find ways to
defend it, I don't agree with. My gut tells me
they are going to eventually ban it. I think it
came so close this year at the owners meeting. Typically
those things don't come back. They typically continue to move
forward and getting the other side to flip. I hope
I'm wrong, because I think Philly has earned the right
(32:39):
to use that in their offense.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
I don't think the lineman loved doing it. I don't
think they.
Speaker 11 (32:44):
Love being at the bottom of the pile on you know,
seven times a game, five times a game. But when
you're winning Super Bowls and you tell me I got
to mush a guy out of there and get my
back right, I'll do that. I'll do that to win
the Super Bowl. So I'll be curious to see how
it plays out.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Finally, I think, you know, people were complaining a couple
of years ago about you know, running backs don't make
any money. It's unfair, and my take has been well.
Tight ends have been under paid my entire life. They
have to block the best athlete on defense, and they
have to catch, they have to do most of the
dirty work, and then they're one of the last positions.
(33:21):
I guess this has changed that you can really take
a shot at as a defensive player. So when you
have your Nashville tight end University and you have all
these young guys in what is something you preach to
young tight ends a high school tight end? It's not
all catching, Like, is there something that is do you
deliver a message a harsh message to all these young
(33:43):
tight ends that I wouldn't think about.
Speaker 11 (33:46):
Yeah, and it's actually a very simple message. And you know,
we get into route running and we got Kelsey given,
you know, really high level coverage recognition and how to
use leverage and breaking and finding space and a lot
of this stuff. I kind of look and I laugh,
and I'm like, Kelsey, like, not everyone can do what
you're talking about.
Speaker 8 (34:02):
Right now because it's super advanced.
Speaker 11 (34:04):
And him and Mahomes and then you got Kittle talking
run game and footwork and hand placement and fight and
you know, these guys are just so unique. But obviously
they have a lot of experience and a lot of
understanding of the position. But the message that we try
to deliver, at least the one I try to deliver
to all of our guys to your point, is the
best opportunity to have success at tight end, especially at
(34:27):
a higher level, is to be able to be trusted
to be on the field on every snap. And that's
going to be your best case for production, catches, yards, opportunities,
how much you get paid, the impact on the.
Speaker 8 (34:39):
Offense, all of it.
Speaker 11 (34:41):
If you could be the best pass catching tight end
in football, or the best run blocking tight end in football,
but if I can only use that, I can only
use you in package of the offense at times where
those skill sets are warranted. You still are going to
play in the NFL. You are still going to be
able to find a ross spot because those skills have value.
(35:02):
But if you want to be a legit guy, you
want to catch eighty balls, you want to have a
thousand yards. The only reason I ever caught a thousand yards,
Colin was because I knew. I went into every game
and there was like four to six real routes downfield
twenty plus yards that were designed for me. But of
that four to six, I needed the right protection, the
(35:23):
right play call, did the play ever get called in
the first place, against the right coverage? And then did
I catch it was the throw. There's so many factors
of those four to six. If I got two or
three of those, that was a great day. But now
you got three catches for fifty five yards. But now
I caught a flat route, I caught a first and
(35:44):
second down checkdown.
Speaker 8 (35:45):
Because I'm on the field, I caught.
Speaker 11 (35:47):
A short yardage goal, a short yardage pass, a goal
line pass, and next thing you know, I'd finished with
seven for ninety and it wasn't the flashy plays. So
if I'm only on the field for the flashy plays,
I never catched the easy. And if I'm only good
enough to be on the field and goal line and
short yardage because I'm a blocker, I don't catch a
third and eight dig across the middle for twenty five.
(36:07):
So being on the field and providing value to your
team no matter that down and distance, you're not looking
to the sideline, what personnel package are they calling. If
I'm on the huddle every single play, even if I'm
not the best at anything, my ability to raise my
value and raise my earnings, my production, all of it
(36:28):
go up. So that's our message to them. Be good
enough at everything, and it's a much easier road.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Great stuff, great broadcast or Fox Sports. It's tight end
to you. It's in Nashville, the twenty third to the
twenty six, a great American city in Tennessee. Good seeing you,
my man, Good seeing you man. Have a great summer, Yeah,
Cee J Mack. If you did more than just jack
up threes, if you could defend a little, if you
could occasionally screen like Greg Olsen talked about, you could
be on the floor in key spots, not just jacking
(36:57):
up threes when your team's down.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
You know you like to take jabs at my hoops game.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
But I'll just say I've signed up for the most
competitive hoops league I've ever joined. There's a large money
to the winner in this league this summer. My wife
doesn't even know about it. I'm just telling you right now.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yeah, because money is a real issue for you. You're
not compensated.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Well, listen, you know everybody can use a little rays
every now and then. Mister Cowery.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Here ridiculous, all right. I want to thank Greg Olsen
for stopping by. It's the herd.
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three Eastern nine am to
noon Pacific. Find your local station for the Herd at
Fox Sports Radio dot com, or stream us live every
day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio
or FSR.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Oh, it is a Wednesday. We are in Chicago. It's live.
It's the Herd. Wherever you may be and however you
may be listening. Thanks for joining us, making us part
of your day. Greg Olsen stops by today. Gotta tell you,
I J Mac. I know you love those knicks. But
(00:52):
Halliburton's doing what he did to Milwaukee and Cleveland. He's
doing the same thing. I'm fine. He is he is,
he is really something.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm going to be a little ornery today, Colin, Well,
what's it.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Season's over.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
It's done, Pacers, Thunder feel the excitement in the finals?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well, listen this series. This series has come down to
two players, the two point guards, and the most overrated
player in the league has bested the clutch player in
the league Tyrese Halliburton a performance for the Ages. It
doesn't even sound right. Thirty two points, fifteen assists, ten rebounds,
(01:33):
zero turnovers. Never been done in the playoffs against the Knicks,
team known for defense, with the legendary defensive coach. I
said it yesterday. Brunson may be the better pure closer,
but Halliburton's a starter, the best middle reliever, and a closer.
It's the entire package. And I don't really see this
(01:53):
as a New York failure. It's another close game. I
see it as the ascension of a rock star in
this league. This was Tyrese Halliburton's magnus opus. The Pacers
are now eleven and three in playoffs. They're eleven and three.
They're only three losses. Otherwise they're eleven and zer. They're
(02:16):
only three losses are game three losses when they lead
two to zero, so they take their foot like any
pro athlete would, a little off the gas. That's it.
Otherwise they're eleven to Z and the Pacers the front
office has done a great job to surround Halliburton with
players that can run with him, and it's empowering. I mean,
(02:39):
how good does Pascal Sayakham, Look now, I mean, what's
amazing about Halliburton. He doesn't even lead the Pacers in
usage rate. That's insane. For thirty two points and fifteen
assists and again no turnovers. With Brunson the great, a
(03:01):
lot of times Nick players are standing around watching him
work his guy and get that great shot, and you
can feel uninvolved. I mean, Halliburton had thirty two last night.
I don't remember that much scoring. I remember the pace,
I remember the assists. Indy did what they do. They
turned that into a track meet. And every game in
(03:23):
which they've controlled pace they've won, not just against the Knicks,
against Milwaukee and against Cleveland and now against the Knicks.
I still like New York a lot. I think they
need to tweak it. I'd go Katie over kat but
I love Indy. This is about Indy very rarely if
Halliburton is on the floor. Do they even get bad
(03:44):
half court possessions. That's hard in the NBA, and that
second half got a little bit sloppy. But they're They're
a high tempo up and down ball movement. Who would
not want to play with Halliburton. It feels Indy feels
like one of those young tech companies that are like
collaborative and empowering, and you can bring your dog to
work and people want to work there forever. That's what
(04:07):
they feel like. I mean the fact that even one
NBA player suggested forget voted, suggested that Halliburton is overrated.
I mean again, look at Pascal Siakam, who's always been
a good player. He looks like he should be first
team All NBA. Look at Rick Carlyle, a forgotten coach.
Now he looks like he's an innovator and one of
(04:28):
the more creative offensive geniuses. And I've known Rick for years.
He's always been an excellent coach and a great guy.
But this is what Magic or Michael or Halliburton can
do to a coach. He accentuates all your skills as
a coach. The reality too with Indy here, New York
may be better, but you could argue they've peaked. Indy's
(04:51):
only getting better. They have a very friendly cap sheet.
They have to figure out what to do with a
good player, not great Miles Turner. They're not quite sure
what to do. But this is a young and improving
and ascending roster that quickly and easily disposed of Milwaukee,
favored Milwaukee, of favored Cleveland, and now of the Knicks,
(05:14):
and here's Haliburton after.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Just time me aggressive, trying to respond. I felt like
I left the team down in Game three, so it's
important for me to come out here and just make plays.
And you know, Guy's put me in a position to
make plays and trying to play my game, and uh, Matt, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
A big win for us.
Speaker 6 (05:29):
Did Dad in the building have anything to.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
Do with that?
Speaker 6 (05:31):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Passing the building man makes it that much more sweet.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And just something to remind you of how special last
night was. I'm just I'm totally taken. But the fact
he has no turnovers to play it at this pace,
never turn it over. Thirty points, fifteen assists, and ten
rebounds in a single game in playoff history. The other
players who have done it are MVPs and champions, Oscar
(06:01):
Robertson twice and the Joker in Denver. That's what we're
talking about, and he was voted by players a handful
is the most overrated player in the league. Again, the
NBA fans and media too often celebrate dynamic. What they
don't celebrate. Remember, Lebron used to get crushed for this
(06:21):
because he wouldn't always take the final shot. And Lebron,
who I defended, would say, other people are open. That's
what Phil Jackson finally finally convinced Michael Jordan to do.
Get it to Packson, get it to curve. If guys
are open, get the better open shot. It was when
Michael finally embraced that that he became a legend. Lebron
(06:45):
did it out of high school. That's Halliburton. He'll drop thirty,
have fifteen assists, and you don't remember the points as
much as the assists and the pace. Everybody on this
team is playing a notch above who they are. I
love Carlisle, but that's about Haliburt. Okay, So Terry Bradshaw
(07:07):
Fox Sports, longtime former steel a great four rings, was
asked on a radio station, we've got the we've got
the audio here about his former team of Steeters potentially
signing Aaron Rodgers.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
That's a joke. He shouldn't they That is just to me,
is a joke.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
What are you going to bring him in for one year?
Speaker 6 (07:26):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
They mean?
Speaker 6 (07:27):
That's right? No, man, that guy needs to stay in California.
Speaker 7 (07:32):
Thank you Jun Barking and.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
Risk the gods out there.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Uh by the way, I I've had an epiphany. I'll
get to that in a second. So it should be
noted as Aaron doesn't have a team yet. Josh Allen
on a team with much less turnover, the Buffalo Bills,
Josh Allen in his prime, better at this point, arguably better,
ever more committed, is that his team's ot a Aaron
(08:00):
doesn't have a team. I was thinking about this morning.
Aaron Rodgers and the Steelers have something in common. Neither
take the duty of quarterback with great urgency. Both the
Steelers and Aaron have a Yeah we'll get to it eventually. Yeah, yeah,
I'll sign with the team. Eventually, We'll figure out the
(08:20):
quarterback eventually. I mean, think about San Francisco and Kyle Shanahan.
They just signed Brock pretty to a massive deal, and
yet this year in the draft, Kyle says, I want
another quarterback, and they draft a kid out of Indiana,
a little bit of a semi you know, Brock pretty
clone ish a lot of snaps in college. They're already
looking for another quarterback. The Green Bay Packers. You all
(08:41):
know this. They draft quarterbacks three years before they let
him on the field. The Pittsburgh Steelers lost their left tackle.
They're two quarterbacks, they're top receiver and a really good
running back in Najie Harris. And their answer is, eh,
I think Aaron's our quarterback. We're not pre sure. I mean,
(09:02):
I mean the Steelers have become the sixty six year
old guy who's never put a penny in his four
to one K and is trying to convince us Listen,
I've got a plan. Believe you me. I'm all good here.
So at this point I have an epiphany. I have
been saying Aaron and the Steelers is a bad fit.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It's a great fit. I mean, in lives, what's the rule?
You got to find somebody that matches your energy, the
Steelers at quarterback. We'll get to it, Aeron On committing eh,
maybe later. I am here for it. The Steelers and
Aaron Rodgers are a little Rodman Carmen Electra. They're a
little Tom Arnold, Roseanne barr Angelina, Jolie, Billy Bob. I
(09:45):
am here for the dysfunction. I mean, the whole time
I've been like, this is a weird fit.
Speaker 8 (09:52):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
For the record, there's a reason the Steelers now are
near the top of the NFL in longest playoff wind droughts.
They're at eight years now. They're not the Dolphins of
the Raiders of the Jets, but they're creeping up the
most important position. And it always was quarterback. It was
always a head coach quarterback league. But more than ever,
it's much easier to protect who's going to win divisions,
(10:14):
especially in the Steelers AFC. Who's got the best quarterback
and does he have a good offensive coach? And do
they treat the position with importance and urgency? Steelers don't,
Aaron doesn't. I'm wrong. It's a match made in heaven,
all right, J Mack. We have a lot of stuff today.
Greg Olsen stopping by a really interesting story here in Chicago.
(10:36):
So they're having the OTAs, and you know, Caleb has
said I want to be coached hard. Apparently Ben Johnson
is coaching him hard. So we'll get to that. I
know you're a little bummed out about the Knicks, but
does it make it feel better that you are witnessing
an all time series by an ascending star.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
No, not at all. How all of a sudden, there's
major issues with the Knicks.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
This Brunts and Towns combo through four games together on
the court, it's minus twenty four. All of a sudden,
the spotlights on the Knicks send It's like, WHOA Do
these two even work together again next year? Or have
the Pacers unlocked something that the Celtics did not see
that the Pistons didn't see.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
And now it's like, well, do we keep Towns or
do we move them?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Like I'm a little nervous for the next this offseason,
I think they, honest shatter is going to be back
and play pretty quickly. If they lose Game five.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, I honest would obviously make them better. I don't
know if they have the pieces, but I think KD
is a much easier list. And I've said this for
the last three days, is that this series is it's
actually can be great because I don't think that I
said this the last two days. The Nicks are not
a championship team. They've got holes, and a better team
is showing you what the holes are. It's not a
gaping hole, it's that they need to catch and shoot score.
(11:57):
KD not a guy that needs the ball to score
and moves Brunson out of the way.
Speaker 8 (12:02):
Kat.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
The reason they don't work together a they're poor defenders,
so simultaneously Halliburton is abusing them if they're ever both
on the court. And secondly, Kat needs the ball. He's
one of the few bigs that gets the ball out
top and then drives in. Doesn't really need a pass
or an assist. He can kind of break it down
and do it himself. The problem is then Brunson is
inactive in the offensive half court set. So it's I think,
(12:26):
what happens when you lose? Why did we lose? That's
that's what a good NFL team does. We're a good
NBA team. What is it? It's not the coach, It's
not Brunson, Brunsinger, Brunsinger lead. You've got to find something.
Mitchell Robinson's actually great for what he is. Hartenstein would
have been great. But Cat doesn't work for two reasons.
And it's on display.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
You say it's the coach. I mean they're gonna have options.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
The Knicks can say, hey, let's bring in Katie, let's
go after your honest or they could say we love
our team, let's run it back with Michael Malone's head
coach instead of Thibodeau.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I don't think that's the sole All these games have
come down to the last four minutes.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And they're losing them. They blew game one like you.
I don't know, man, Maybe I'm just a despond.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
You don't blow out Lamar Jackson or John Harbaugh because
you lose close to the bills of the Chiefs. You
try to find other areas to improve. You don't get
rid of your foundational bedrock A plus pieces Tibbs isn't
the issue. The issue is the roster construction. Remember Bridges
has been really good. Towns solved an issue. They needed
(13:30):
a second scorer, and they didn't trust Julius Randall, who,
by the way, can disappear in spots. Kat is a
more natural offensive player, so he was an upgrade over Randall.
But it's always been steps in this league. So it's
always about find the coach for your star, and then
it's can you find complimentary pieces. Kat was an upgrade
(13:50):
over Randal KD is an upgrade over based on styles
catch and shoot, He's an upgrade over Cat.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
And so you're saying, Jason, I'm down. Just Tatum's out
next year.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
It's basically Pacers, Nicks, maybe the Pistons and the Caves
in the East.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
And why can't the Nicks get right back to try
it to the finals?
Speaker 8 (14:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
No need Yeah, it's just been a series of smart
steps Randall to Cat and now try to get You know,
you're gonna have to give up if you give up
Cat to get KD And I'm the Knicks. I want
a draft pick. I want something beyond that. It's just
not a it's a it's not because Cat is younger,
but it's worth considering. Get help turning your home into
(14:32):
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Speaker 2 (14:54):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and noon Eastern a em Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Caleb Williams, their USC quarterback, struggled as a rookie. They
wanted him for him to improve on two things. Number
one body language and number two pre snap procedure. So
I've always been I think body language is a really
big deal. I don't care if you're a mayor. I
don't care if you're a CEO. I don't care if
you're a quarterback. I'm glad this is mentioned, and I'm
(15:25):
glad Ben Johnson cares about this. So this is according
to Albert Breer. They want to improve on body language
and they want to improve on pre snap improvement. So
I think those are totally legitimate. In fact, one of
the rare criticisms I had of Caleb in college he
could be moody. I saw it when he played Oregon
State up in court Vallas. He eventually won the game
(15:47):
with a great dot down the sideline to Jordan Addison,
but on the sideline he had to be counseled and
consoled by Lincoln Riley. He got a little bit moody
and kind of checked out, And that's okay. He's an
emotional kid. I think ideally you'd want your quarterback to
be Jalen Hurtz stoic. You could be fiery, but you
can't be poudy. You can be aggressive, but you can't
(16:08):
have an attitude. And I thought that Oregon State game.
It was a little bit of hey man, we need
you to check back in body language matters, so I
think it needs to be worked on. He came back
in that game. By the way, there's the winning touchdown
that Jordan Addison the pre snap concerns. I think Heady
had a better head coach his rookie year in the NFL.
If he had inherited Kyle Shanahan, we wouldn't talk about that.
(16:29):
I think some of that comes with experience. I mean,
Mahomes had Andy Reid. It still took him two and
three years, so I think he'll get better at that.
I think a lot of that was just he didn't
have a very good coaching staff and at USC, Caleb Williams.
I don't think his last year at USC trusted the
O line. He shouldn't have, and so it was a
lot of hero ball and him ad libbing. And I
(16:52):
don't think Lincoln Riley necessarily trusted the O line, so
he let Caleb Williams ad lib and call his own shots.
I think he'll be fine there. What I do find
with a lot of the great quarterbacks of all time,
Peyton Manning's like this, They think like accountants precision details
almost Mathey, Caleb's a creative. He's a creative. Mahomes is
(17:15):
a creative, and that's fine. It takes a special coach
to coach a creative. It takes Andy Reid. Okay, is
Ben Johnson Andy Reid? I don't know. Is Ben Johnson
a great quarterback coach as a head coach like Sean
Payton or Kyle Shanahan or Andy Reid? I don't know.
I think so, but I know that Caleb Williams said
(17:37):
I want to be coached hard. And this is interesting.
This comes from Adam h Oge Adam Hoges, I think so.
At the OTAs the story is that Ben Johnson has
been ripping Cole Comet for some mental mistakes. He also
it's interesting, according to Adam that what appeared to be
(17:58):
the best throw of the day when Caleb hit DJ
Moore deep down the left sideline, it was probably more
like a deep out, and Caleb came back toward Ben Johnson,
the rookie coach, and Ben Johnson said, yeah, you can't
do that. That's coaching. So Caleb Williams I was expecting.
I was hoping that Ben Johnson's impact would be immediate.
(18:20):
The impact has not quite been immediate. So again, I
think when you're coaching creatives, and Lamar is a creative,
Mahomes is creative. Steve Young was one of the first
I ever saw that. I'm like, oh, Brett farr was
a bit of a creative. They're harder to coach. Go
ask Mike Holmgren what coaching Brett Farve is like, you
(18:42):
got to embrace it. It's a fine line between John Gruden,
a's John Gruden when he was an assistant about coaching Farv.
It's really really hard. It takes a great coach, not
a good coach, and Caleb didn't have that last year.
You hope he has it, but Matt Hasselbeck says, don't
expect miracles in September.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
I don't think you know right away.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
I mean Troy Aikman started out really poorly his rookie year,
Like they didn't do well. Peyton Manning, you know, I
think he might have led the league in interceptions. Eli
Manning get bench for Kurt Warner, Like there's all these
stories of young quarterbacks.
Speaker 8 (19:19):
He doesn't start out well.
Speaker 7 (19:21):
At the end of the year, I think a decision
will be made on him one way or the other,
and it's just fair to say, if you watch the film,
he's off to a very very slow start.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Last year, j Max said the Barrels will be the
most interesting team in the league, and they were for
about four games. I actually do think because we now
have a young quarterback with a really sharp offensive coach.
And I think everybody needs a king maker in life.
You could be a mayor, you could be a lawyer.
Everybody needs a king maker. Bo Nicks got his, Jaden
(19:54):
Daniels have, Cliff Kingsbury got his, Caleb had his at
Oklahoma USC, he had Lincoln Riley, he had his kingmaker.
And so to pull all that talent out now, can
Ben do it? Can Ben do it with the Bears?
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and neon eastern non am Pacific.
Speaker 9 (20:13):
Hey, Steve Covino and I'm Rich David and together we're
Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
You could catch us.
Speaker 9 (20:20):
Weekdays from five to seven pm Eastern two to four
Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and of course the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
Why should you listen to Covino and Rich?
Speaker 9 (20:28):
We talk about everything life, sports, relationships, what's going on
in the world. We have a lot of fun talking
about the stories behind the stories in the world of
sports and pop culture, stories that well, other shows don't
seem to have the time to discuss. And the fact
that we've been friends for the last twenty years and
still work together, I mean that says something, right, So.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
Check us out. We like to get you involved too,
Take your phone calls, chop it up.
Speaker 9 (20:50):
As they say, I'd say the most interactive show on
Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive show on planetar.
Be sure to check out Covino and Rich live on
Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app from five five
to seven pm Eastern two to four Pacific, And if
you miss any of the live show, just search covin
on and Rich wherever you get your podcasts, and of
course on social.
Speaker 6 (21:07):
Media that's Cavino and Rich.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Hour two. Indiana Pacers have taken control of the series.
Indiana has played fourteen playoff kids. They're zero to three
in game threes when they lead to OZHO. When they've
taken control of the series, winning on the road at Milwaukee,
(21:32):
at Cleveland, at New York, they go into the other
team's place steal both games. They come home foot on
the gas, let's off a little, and they've lost one
game in each series, Game three, that's it. Otherwise they're
eleven and zero. In the urgency games games one and two, four, five, six,
(21:53):
they're eleven and zer and Halliburton statline last night maybe
the most impressive thing I've ever seen in my life.
Thirty two fifteen ten and no turnovers. That is beyond
hyper efficiency. That is insane. That'd be like an NFL quit.
That's what Jaden Daniels did last year, but he would
go like thirty of thirty four with no turnovers. What
(22:17):
it's just, it's in against the defensive coach and a
defensive team. And the other thing is and you saw
this with Magic Johnson. You see this with a truly
great point guard. You see this with Chris Paul. Remember
when Chris Paul was in LA, like Blake Griffin was
like is he a top three or four player in
the league? And DeAndre Jordan was nothing but buckets. And
then Chris Paul leaves those two players and they're not
(22:39):
the same players. You see all the holes in their game.
I like Pascal Siakam, he looks all NBA first team
playing with Aliburton thirty two, fifteen ten and no turnovers.
Here's Ali after.
Speaker 10 (22:51):
I feel like we're making up stats at at one
point to make me look better. I was just trying
to be aggressive, man, just trying to play my best,
you know. I feel like I let the team down
in Game three. Felt like I could have been so
much better. So I feel like I responded the right
way today.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
The only time I haven't liked Indiana in this series
was when they had Halliburton off the floor end of
the third quarter in Game three and the start of
the fourth and they lost their rhythm. And this is
a rhythm team, and it's a rhythm team because of Halliburton.
And then he came back in, he got him back
on track, but it just it felt like they lost
their mojo. So like every time he goes to the bench,
(23:32):
if Brunson goes to the bench, Kat can score more.
The Knicks don't necessarily go into a cave. Halliburton's off
the floor. It's like it's like white knuckle time. You're like, okay,
all right, let's make sure this thing works. He is
all time spasih. I love watching him play, and I
think it's a great personality with that. Greg Olsen joining
us live fourteen years in the NFL, Fox Sports, Anna,
(23:53):
it's great, great broadcaster. By the way, tight End University
is back. It's fifth year in Nashville in h June
twenty three to the twenty second. I want to ask
you about that because part of what you do, which
I think is the most underdiscussed part of your sport,
is film study. And Caleb Williams was recently quoted talking
(24:14):
about the Bears, a team you played for and loved
playing for. He's like, yeah, I'd watched film alone, and
I don't you know, I'm not in those rooms. When
you hear that he watched film alone, what was your
interpretation of that. How's that land for you?
Speaker 8 (24:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 11 (24:31):
It lands as you would expect. It's just it's hard
for me to believe that that was the case. And
I'm not saying he's not being genuine. I've been in
three different organizations, multiple different head coaches, multiple different quarterbacks.
I've never heard of a guy not having the opportunity
to watch film with his position coach, let alone the quarterback,
(24:53):
not you know, between the quarterback coach, the offensive coordinator
someone there. It's hard for me to believe that the
organization would let their young rookie watch film by himself.
But with that being said, yeah, it is though an
element of the sport that there is a little bit
of a learning curve. I don't think most young guys
coming out of college, unless you just happen to be
(25:15):
playing for you know, the right coach, the right position,
coach coordinator, whoever at the college level, to teach you
the art of film studying. I think we just have
a joke like, we're not in here watching movies. Right.
There's a lot of guys that put the game on
play one and they just go play one, play two,
play three, and they just go through the sequence of
a game. You know, yes, you're watching film, Are you
(25:37):
really getting the tendencies and really know what you're looking
at to study? My experience is most guys have to
learn that. Most guys have to learn that over the career.
How I watched film in my fourteenth year was wildly
different than how I watched it my first and second year.
And I think it's up to the organization. It's up
to the coach, especially at the quarterback position, where there
(25:59):
is no greater responsibility than understanding not only everything of
what your team's doing, but of course what the opposing
team is doing defensively. So I can't imagine Ben Johnson's
gonna let that go on at all. So I think
for Caleb Williams and his development, the right guy now
is in control in Chicago, both over the team and
then obviously offensively with what Ben Johnson can do. But yeah,
(26:21):
when I read that report, I kind of did a ooh,
like true, not true, scales of truth whatever. There's always
probably two sides to every story. But just the fact
that that was even suggested is not a great is
not a great reflection of the organization for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
But by the way, did you and Cam, for instance,
film study Would you sit down with Cam and go, dude,
this guy, this guy in the flats week? Like, is
that a real thing?
Speaker 8 (26:48):
Oh? Absolutely? So we had a great routine, so it
was actually kind of fun.
Speaker 11 (26:52):
So most of the meetings from when we got there
in the morning were all controlled by the coaches. It
was small group meetings, offensive install then we'd have practice,
Then we'd have post practice review where we'd watch the
practice film. So there was opportunities to you know, hey, coach,
take a second, Cam, Here's why I ran this flat.
Speaker 8 (27:09):
Here's why.
Speaker 11 (27:10):
And you're watching practice film or you're watching and the
opportunity to go. But there's thirty five guys in the room,
it's not really the opportunity for the two of you
to have your own conversation. But then at the end
of the day when everything officially with the coaches ended,
the tight end and the quarterback room in Carolina, we're.
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Right next to each other.
Speaker 11 (27:26):
We literally shared a wall, so he'd be in his
room with some of the quarterbacks and I'd be doing
Sometimes I liked being by myself at the end of
the day, just for my own prep and notes and whatnot,
and I knew he was right next door, so I
would pop over and be like, Hey, I need you
to come take a look at this, and say, hey,
look at the way the safety's hips are. Are you
okay if I take this a couple of yards deeper,
am I going to throw off your timing? And most
(27:48):
of the time Cam was just like, get open, I'm good,
But then sometimes he'd be like, I can't hold it
that long or it messes up with my timing. Of
my footwork, or I don't like the way your body
language looks like there because you kind of fooled me.
I wasn't sure when you were going to come out
of your break. I need less at the top. So
like that dialogue in meetings on the field was NonStop.
(28:10):
And when you can play with one guy for as
long as we did over time, I knew his answer
before I even had to ask him, and vice versa
because we had talked through so many scenarios over so
many days, you know, for those nine years together.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
So Cam was a mover, Caleb's a mover. Cam Ward
is a mover like I like Cam a lot. And
I think Tennessee could be a playoff team. Tell the
audience when you do have Caleb Williams and he can
add lib Now, I think the Bears online is better.
He won't have to do it as much. But some
of these guys like Cam, cam Warden Caleb, they're just
naturally gifted. It's like if you have a great voice,
you sing in the shower, like that's just the reality
(28:46):
of their game. When you have a mobile quarterback, does
it make it harder for tight ends and does it
make it harder in film studies so much is that lib.
Speaker 11 (28:57):
Yeah, it's a great question. So I think what we're
seeing right now in the NFL is you can't play.
I should say with uncertainty, the vast majority of guys
cannot play NFL quarterback if you don't have some level
of improv right, some level of playing off script, off platform.
All the words, the buzzwords that get thrown around, but
(29:17):
the ability to buy time, escape pocket pressure and still
stay active as a quarterback and not always just rely
on being a runner, stay active as a passer. I
mean now you also can't only playoff script. You can't
only play improv quarterback at the NFL. There's no timing,
there's no rhythm. The tackles don't know your depth of
(29:37):
your drop, The guards don't know the depth of the pocket.
Am I blocking for you to be at five and
a half yards? Or are you going to be outside
the hash marks running with your life? If I'm a quarterback,
if I'm a wide receiver or a tight end, I
need to know at the top of my break when
I get my head around, Am I looking to find
you behind the center at seven yards? Or is there
a chance that you've already broken contained and you're outside
(29:58):
the pocket, and now I need to get too scramble drilled.
Speaker 8 (30:01):
So there is a balance to it all.
Speaker 11 (30:03):
You can't just stand in one spot and be a
statue in today's NFL, and you also can't just play
recess football running around.
Speaker 8 (30:11):
It's not sustainable.
Speaker 11 (30:12):
So I think that blend of don't take what's special
out of these guys, don't take it out of their game.
If you have the ability to move and improvise, encourage
them to do it, but just give them boundaries, give
them parameters of saying, Okay, I need you to hit
your fifth step of your drop and it's a progression
pass or it's a half field read or whatever the
play calls for. After you've exhausted all of that, if
(30:35):
the opportunity there is to extend and create plays outside
the rhythm of the game, We're never going to take
you away. But it can't be hit your back foot
and run around because we can't support you doing that
every single play from a protection and a route concept.
So there is a little give and take, and I
think that's something that Ben Johnson has proven. He's coached
(30:57):
multiple different types of quarterbacks. Guy in golf who really
was stationary in rhythm, in timing, get the ball out
of his hand. He will have a little bit of
a different flavor for a guy like Caleb, where he
does get that rhythm progression passer in the offense because
you need it, but then also encourage him to use
his athleticism because it is very challenging for defenses to
(31:19):
play off script and defend.
Speaker 8 (31:21):
That long.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Before I get to the tight end. You the tush push.
You know, as a guy that was a willing blocker.
My guess was you like it? Do you like the
tush bush?
Speaker 8 (31:34):
I do?
Speaker 11 (31:35):
I think it would be an extremely unfair and wrong
to Philadelphia, who has really some teams have done it
here and there. No one has even come remotely close
to doing it as efficiently as often and used it
as such a fabric of their offensive philosophy, from how
they manage third downs knowing they got a yard and
(31:55):
a half in their back pocket, how they call first
and second down plays knowing they have a fourth down
in their back pocket, goal to go situations like it
is a not just a play, it is really a
centerpiece of the entire fabric philosophy that Sirianni has built
with that offense in Jalen hurt. So I think to
remove that from a team who has found a play
that they're uniquely good at, just because the rest of
(32:18):
the league is tired of trying to find ways to
defend it, I don't agree with. My gut tells me
they are going to eventually ban it. I think it
came so close this year at the owners meeting. Typically
those things don't come back. They typically continue to move
forward and getting the other side to flip. I hope
I'm wrong, because I think Philly has earned the right
(32:39):
to use that in their offense.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
I don't think the lineman loved doing it. I don't
think they.
Speaker 11 (32:44):
Love being at the bottom of the pile on you know,
seven times a game, five times a game. But when
you're winning Super Bowls and you tell me I got
to mush a guy out of there and get my
back right, I'll do that. I'll do that to win
the Super Bowl. So I'll be curious to see how
it plays out.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Finally, I think, you know, people were complaining a couple
of years ago about you know, running backs don't make
any money. It's unfair, and my take has been well.
Tight ends have been under paid my entire life. They
have to block the best athlete on defense, and they
have to catch, they have to do most of the
dirty work, and then they're one of the last positions.
(33:21):
I guess this has changed that you can really take
a shot at as a defensive player. So when you
have your Nashville tight end University and you have all
these young guys in what is something you preach to
young tight ends a high school tight end? It's not
all catching, Like, is there something that is do you
deliver a message a harsh message to all these young
(33:43):
tight ends that I wouldn't think about.
Speaker 11 (33:46):
Yeah, and it's actually a very simple message. And you know,
we get into route running and we got Kelsey given,
you know, really high level coverage recognition and how to
use leverage and breaking and finding space and a lot
of this stuff. I kind of look and I laugh,
and I'm like, Kelsey, like, not everyone can do what
you're talking about.
Speaker 8 (34:02):
Right now because it's super advanced.
Speaker 11 (34:04):
And him and Mahomes and then you got Kittle talking
run game and footwork and hand placement and fight and
you know, these guys are just so unique. But obviously
they have a lot of experience and a lot of
understanding of the position. But the message that we try
to deliver, at least the one I try to deliver
to all of our guys to your point, is the
best opportunity to have success at tight end, especially at
(34:27):
a higher level, is to be able to be trusted
to be on the field on every snap. And that's
going to be your best case for production, catches, yards, opportunities,
how much you get paid, the impact on the.
Speaker 8 (34:39):
Offense, all of it.
Speaker 11 (34:41):
If you could be the best pass catching tight end
in football, or the best run blocking tight end in football,
but if I can only use that, I can only
use you in package of the offense at times where
those skill sets are warranted. You still are going to
play in the NFL. You are still going to be
able to find a ross spot because those skills have value.
(35:02):
But if you want to be a legit guy, you
want to catch eighty balls, you want to have a
thousand yards. The only reason I ever caught a thousand yards,
Colin was because I knew. I went into every game
and there was like four to six real routes downfield
twenty plus yards that were designed for me. But of
that four to six, I needed the right protection, the
(35:23):
right play call, did the play ever get called in
the first place, against the right coverage? And then did
I catch it was the throw. There's so many factors
of those four to six. If I got two or
three of those, that was a great day. But now
you got three catches for fifty five yards. But now
I caught a flat route, I caught a first and
(35:44):
second down checkdown.
Speaker 8 (35:45):
Because I'm on the field, I caught.
Speaker 11 (35:47):
A short yardage goal, a short yardage pass, a goal
line pass, and next thing you know, I'd finished with
seven for ninety and it wasn't the flashy plays. So
if I'm only on the field for the flashy plays,
I never catched the easy. And if I'm only good
enough to be on the field and goal line and
short yardage because I'm a blocker, I don't catch a
third and eight dig across the middle for twenty five.
(36:07):
So being on the field and providing value to your
team no matter that down and distance, you're not looking
to the sideline, what personnel package are they calling. If
I'm on the huddle every single play, even if I'm
not the best at anything, my ability to raise my
value and raise my earnings, my production, all of it
(36:28):
go up. So that's our message to them. Be good
enough at everything, and it's a much easier road.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Great stuff, great broadcast or Fox Sports. It's tight end
to you. It's in Nashville, the twenty third to the
twenty six, a great American city in Tennessee. Good seeing you,
my man, Good seeing you man. Have a great summer, Yeah,
Cee J Mack. If you did more than just jack
up threes, if you could defend a little, if you
could occasionally screen like Greg Olsen talked about, you could
be on the floor in key spots, not just jacking
(36:57):
up threes when your team's down.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
You know you like to take jabs at my hoops game.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
But I'll just say I've signed up for the most
competitive hoops league I've ever joined. There's a large money
to the winner in this league this summer. My wife
doesn't even know about it. I'm just telling you right now.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yeah, because money is a real issue for you. You're
not compensated.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Well, listen, you know everybody can use a little rays
every now and then. Mister Cowery.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Here ridiculous, all right. I want to thank Greg Olsen
for stopping by. It's the herd.
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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