Yahoo Sports basketball analyst Kevin O'Connor joins the show to react to the NBA Finals through two games including how Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has become unstoppable, how Tyrese Haliburton can be more aggressive, what the Oklahoma City Thunder and Indiana Pacers have to do to win the series, and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
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(02:00):
All right, well to hoops to night here at the volume.
Happy Monday, everybody, If all the guys had a great weekend.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I texted Kevin O'Connor last week to see if we
can get them on to talk some NBA finals, and
in the text message, I said, fingers crossed for one
to one, and here we are one one as the
Pacers did some pacer things on Thursday last week to
get us into a one to one matchup. Lots of
interesting stuff to get into. What I want to do
today is just kind of zoom out from the first
(02:27):
two games and talk about some of the biggest dynamics
that are swinging this series one way or another. Kevin's
been someone that I've admired for a long time from Afar.
I've been lucky to come on his show a couple
of times. First appearance here on Hoops Tonight. One of
my favorite people cover in the game, Kevin, how are
you man?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I'm doing excellent. Jason, It's an honor to be on
your show. What you've built is so awesome to get
that YouTube plaque rewarded with that with all the hard
work you guys and your team have. Donna. Yeah, so
it's cool to be on your show. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I'm like irrationally excited about the But I wonder if
that's just like our generation and just like the different
types of things that we get excited about. Like it's
so funny. It's just like like you know, a little
foam plaque, but it's something that.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
It's a physical reward. It's better than just like an email.
It's like something physical that you can feel in touch.
It's awesome. But they still do that.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, exactly, we were talking before the show. I wanted
to quickly ask you, Uh so, obviously you do a
lot of draft work in addition to covering the league
at large, and this year's draft is just so much
more talent heavy at the top, And so do you
actually enjoy drafts like this year more in terms of
(03:37):
like the workflow or do you enjoy drafts like last
year where you don't have the obvious stuff at the top,
but like there's so much to get into with like
the high variance guys down the list. What has that
been like for you?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
I mean I think for me, like I enjoy it
all equally in terms of like my side of things,
because it's there's stars in every draft, Like it's just
like there's always gonna be guys that end up being stars.
So how do you find those guys who are It's
always fun debating who are the guys you like more
than other people? Who are the people that you like
les than others? And why it's like last night, I
watched like every single Dylan Harper miss and I tracked
(04:10):
where he missed. I tracked like that he missed long, short, left, right, backboard,
Like I like doing that stuff. That's fun to do
for me, regardless of the quality of the draft. But
it is more fun when more people care about the
drafts and more people care about the draft, and when
there's prizes in the draft, and Cooper Flag being a
prize at the top, Dylan Harper a lot of people
(04:30):
do consider a prize. I'm not quite there with him
being some generational guard. I think he's really good. But
I think next year, in twenty twenty six, is really
gonna be probably the most fun draft class that I've
ever covered. I've been doing draft coverge since twenty thirteen.
My first Draft guide was in twenty fourteen. But like,
next year, man, like there's like three or four number
(04:54):
one pick quality guys, Cam Boozer at Duke, Darren Peterson Hansas,
and then A J. D. Bonsa, a native of Brockton, Massachusetts,
where I'm also from, going to BYU. At least those three,
and so like, next year, I think it's gonna be
insane with all three of those guys in college basketball,
all playing for big schools as well BYU big time
(05:16):
on the rise. So I think next year it could
be like the peak of my draft covers in all
the years I've been doing it. But it's fun for
me personally every single year.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
No, I totally agree, Like there's I find joy in
doing projects that don't perform super well too, just because
we love our jobs, and there's and there's you know.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Joy you're telling me, Dylan Harper missed missus being tracked
isn't gonna perform well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
The funny thing though, is like like it's I was
so pleased, like we we ended up in a pretty
big number after game one of the of this series,
and like that just made me so happy because I
was like, first of all, it's like thunder Pacers. You know,
it's this like relatively small market matchup, and it's ultimately
our job is fun, people care, and so I totally
(06:01):
get that, Like it's like you can find joy in
the minutia and we're never gonna stop doing that stuff.
But there's no doubt that when the people are invested,
it gets to be a ton of fun. Kevin does
great work covering the draft. Make sure you guys follow
him on Twitter and is your draft guide out yet?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Officially?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah? Draft guide is on Yahoo Sports, so you can
find it just you know, it should be pinned in
my profile on social media. But just search Kevin O'Connor
NBA Draft Guide twenty twenty five whoever your favorite search
engine is and it'll pop up.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So moving to the series, the number one dynamic that
I have found to be most fascinating between the first
two games is shake Gilles Alexander in his overall approach.
Was there anything that stood out to you in particular
from the first two games in just the way that
Shay approached generating shots for his team.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
You know, I felt like he was playing a bit
more to his speed in game two, But I I
kind of disagreed with you know, Doris Burke on that
broadcast said Shade was being over aggressive during Game one.
I disagreed with that. I felt like the game required
it from him. His teammates shot twenty five of sixty
(07:13):
eight in game one thirty seven percent, like pretty horrible.
I felt like they needed thirty shots from Shae in
game one, whereas in game two, obviously he got to
the line a little bit more. He took only twenty
one shots, not thirty shots, but his teammates also shot
significantly better, So I felt like he gave, okay see
what they needed in game one. But I do feel
(07:35):
like he came out in game two with a bit
more pace on his end of things, on top of
some of the tactical changes, you know, logo pick and
rolls further out, you know, more post ups and all that.
Like I, I was okay with his Game one performance though,
so I didn't really subscribe to some of the criticism
of him in game one.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This is awesome because we disagree, so that will make
for a fun little debate here off the top.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
So, like I, I.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Agree in general with the idea that there are times,
especially for a scoring archetype, and I would argue that
the playmaking archetypes over the years, the Jokiches, the Lebron's,
the Halliburton types, there are situations where they kind of
need to be more aggressive than they are because their
teammates aren't super comfortable.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
I did think that Shay.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Played a little bit of a role in his team
going out of rhythm in the first game, just simply
with like I'll give you an example, there was a
play where in the it was in like the I
think it was in the late first quarter last night,
where he's in a ball screen and he's attacking Thomas
Bryant and Hartenstein just wipes out Aaron E. Smith on
(08:43):
the screen and he comes downhill and he has Thomas
Bryant kind of like a drop coverage, and he's got
a pretty good look at like a little pull up
seventeen footer around the right elbow area, but TJ McConnell's
kind of sagging in off of Chet off of the
left wing, and he's sitting behind Thomas Bryant just right
(09:05):
off of that like left handed drive, so it's like
he's not there bothering the pull up shot, but he's
making it so that the drive he couldn't like, couldn't
like snake to pick and roll to try to get
back over to his left hand or anything like that,
and instead he just throws a little pitch out to
Chet Holmgren on the left wing and TJ McConnell closes out,
he pump fakes, he runs past him, and he ends
up hitting a three. And it felt to me like
(09:26):
that was a little that was a pull up jump
shot that both him and Jay Dub were just taking
in Game one, that like kind of fifteen to seventeen
on the shot clock, type of like decent shot that
we know he can make. And I remember in the moment,
you know what's so interesting, Kevin, I remember in the
moment watching Game one, being like, like, oh, like Shay's
(09:47):
attacking the finals like he is. He is not letting himself,
you know, shrink or feel uncomfortable. He's like, I'm gonna
find a way to get comfortable out here by taking
these shots that I know that I can make. And
I I thought that just in general, his approach was
a little bit more geared towards hunting advantages in Game
two versus hunting his shot. There were some pretty significant
(10:09):
differences in the numbers. They had a ninety six offensive
rating in the half court in Game one. They had
a one to sixteen half court offensive rating in Game two. Now, obviously,
as we know, part of that is just guys knocking
down shots, but they also generated more. They generated twenty
three unguarded catch and tchoo jump shots in Game two,
just fifteen in Game one. As a team, they threw
(10:32):
two hundred and thirty two passes in game two compared
to two hundred and seven passes in game one. I
did think he in general just kind of like let
the game come to him a little bit more, which
allowed him to again, this stuff is a lot in
a lot of cases like super supernatural in terms of discussion,
when we're talking about rhythm and flow, and it's like
(10:54):
it's very difficult to quantify these things, and it's always
going to be a certain amount of like subjectivity, and
it's up for debate. But I did think that Shay
just in general, made a bit a little bit more
of an effort to kind of keep the ball popping around,
some quicker decisions, some of those reads earlier in the clock,
taking some of those tougher mid range jump shots in
(11:16):
later clock situations, or as a counter sprinkling in aggression,
just to keep the defense honest. But like, at the
same time, I did think his floor game was a
little bit better. That said, I do agree with you
that there the young guys were more comfortable in this game,
and that certainly helps. And a lot of the times,
you know, these guys will react based on what their
(11:37):
personality traits are, like when Shae sees his teammates struggling,
he's gonna think. He's gonna think shoot the ball, right,
just like when Tyree sees his teammate struggling, he's going
to confront the issue by trying to pass the ball.
More So, like I guess my take is just that
I thought that he kind of was more of an
active participant in the team's rhythm in Game two.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
I think I think, like what you're hitting on, like
the supernatural aspect, you know, the feel, and like it's
these things like you can't understand by just looking at
the numbers, right, because if you look at the numbers,
which I have. Game one, he made thirty eight passes,
his teammates shot two of eleven on the assist opportunities.
(12:19):
In Game two, he made thirty nine passes. His teammates
shot eight of fifteen on assist opportunities. So like his
teammates shot better off of his passes in game two,
they shot horribly in game one, whether he was passing
the ball or somebody else is passing them the ball,
or they were self created shots. But to your point,
like that's where I think you and I agree, is
(12:40):
that I did feel he was just more comfortable in
Game two, he was just more comfortable. Whether that was
due to his approach in the game to your point,
coming out early looking for his teammates. Most of his
passes in Game one came in the second, third, and
fourth quarters, not as much the first quarter, setting a
tone for his team looking to pass, or whether it
was due to game planning as well, because okay, so
(13:01):
he was sitting screens further out more logo logo pick
and rolls where you know you have Indiana going over
screens in those situations where I feel like maybe you
want to go under when it's that far out, and
you have him posting up a handful of times as well,
Like I feel, that's where I feel the biggest difference
(13:22):
is that I thought in Game one there there wasn't
as much variety as there was in Game two from
Shay because, like I mentioned this on my podcast last night,
I had Adam Adas from All NBA on it, like
him and I were talking about Adam's the best, and
like him and I were talking about SGA as well,
and like I mentioned to him, you know, there's this
(13:43):
one play in the late mid or late third quarter
where SGA split a pick and roll. Hartenstein was on
a short roll. He found him immediately because he was
you know, Sga got pressured. He split the pick and
roll than Hartenstein found Cruz on a cup. But then
the next play, Sga got posted up on the left
block and okay, See cleared out everything for him. He
(14:04):
drew attention, kicked it out. Okay, so he swung it
around the horn and found Cruso in the right corner
four three. So it's like, I feel, okay, See put
him in different spots on the floor more often, and
maybe these things are all connected, where like him looking
for the pass more is in part due to some
game planning here with putting him in different areas of
(14:24):
the floor versus Indiana kind of knowing what Indiana was
doing in game one. As Dagnau called it after Game one,
it was a feel out game and maybe that's where
Sga felt it out and he just felt overall more
comfortable and the game planning was better and the teammates
just made more shots.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I did the same thing.
I was like, I was like, I'm feeling this strong
kind of vibe that Shay's hunting his opportunities more as
a passer in game two. So I wanted to check
the numbers, and I saw the same stuff you did
in terms of like the passing numbers being the same,
and my rationalization was with that was exactly what you said,
which is if in game one, I think he took
(15:01):
eleven shots in the first quarter, I actually thought Shaye
made all of the kickout reads in the fourth quarter
of that game. Like Shae was fantastic in the fourth
quarter of that game, getting dribble penetration through those guard
guard action or hitting the guy slipping out of the action,
and like the pacers were throwing sometimes two three dudes
helping at the basket, and he was making the kickout passes.
(15:21):
He did make those passes. The difference to me was
in game two he started the game that way. And
I've just always been a believer that if you invest
in rhythm basically early in the game, if you target
these opportunities so guys feel comfortable, there's just more of
an opportunity for them to be comfortable throughout the game.
That said, love a good disagreement, love a good argument.
(15:42):
I love the other stuff you hit on, Like I
thought the left block post ups were like a huge
development in game two. It just it puts the ball
in Shae's dominant hand, so it's really easy for him
to pass out of that. And like when he gets
into single coverage, he was able to draw fouls or
score against nemhart And and Mathrin, but at the same
time he was able to use it as just a
easy vehicle with which to get the defense in rotation
(16:05):
the part I want to zoom in on. And I
also just thought I thought you mentioned this too in
your bit, the like just in general, like it felt
like they were more willing to have Shay sit off
ball and let other people run action, which was another part.
Like there was a play in the late second quarter
or late first quarter where like it's like Shae's just
literally standing off ball. Why Isaiah Joe's running action with Hartenstein,
(16:27):
you know what I mean. Like they were just a
little bit more willing to let other people get involved
in the offense. And I thought that that was contagious
and that it just kind of flowed down the roster
as far as the pick and roll coverages go. This
is where I think it gets fascinating. So whenever we're
having these discussions we have to lead with saying.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
There is no good way to guard Shay.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
He's just incredible, because like any alternative that we're gonna
throw out here is gonna come with its own set
of issues. But one of the things that stood out
to me in Game one, I thought in the second
half they were a little bit softer in their pick
and roll coverages, which is why Shay started to get
some of his stuff in drop coverage. But everything at
the level in this series I think has been brutal
(17:08):
for Indiana, and the two problems I should say the
three problems that they keep having is one Shae rejecting screens.
So when they bring up whoever it is, whether it's
Topen or Turner or Thomas Bryant, that guy's setting up
to get on the side of the screen that they're
expecting Shaye to go. And then when he rejects the screen,
there's nobody there four on three. Or they'll throw that
(17:30):
hard head or switch with that guy and he'll quickly
split that now they're gone four on three, Or the
dude will slip out of it and he throws the
pass over the top and it's four on three. So
to Shay's credit, he has butchered this coverage with his
ability to generate the four on threes. Do you think
Indiana needs to consider pivoting to a different coverage to
(17:52):
try to have a better chance to contain Shay?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Is this why we started to see a little bit
of zone? You think? Is that possible Indiana sprinkling that
in a little bit in the middle of the third
quarter because Indiana they don't really run zone at all,
But then again, neither the Minnesota neither the Denver and
then Denver like a third of their possessions in the
half court or zone defense. I think from Minnesota it
(18:18):
was like ten percent of their possessions in the half
court or zone defense against Oklahoma City. With Indiana entering
this series, I believe the number was they had three
total possessions of playing zone. Those are like sideline out
of bounds plays when they would do that, but after
makes in the third quarter for a short stretch they're
(18:39):
playing zone. Is that why you think possibly because of
the issues with regardless of whatever the type of covers
are using against shape pick and rolls, that that could
be the answer.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
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Speaker 2 (19:23):
So I think that in general, having a plan for penetration.
Penetration is the move. Now that could be zone because
if we look at it, so like what are the alternatives.
So if they're showing high whether that's a hedge or
it's a ball screen coverage with their with their bigs,
you're giving up these four on threes because you have
two guys that are out way out by the perimeter, right.
(19:43):
So like in theory, you could try like more of
a softer switch, you could try a deeper drop. There's
all these like different things you can try to me
the softer switch, the deeper drop. In particular, at the
very least you're going five on four instead of four
on three, meaning like as he comes off the screen,
you have one of those two guys who was originally
(20:06):
assigned to Shay at least back trying to help facilitate
your plan for dealing with him. Zone is another way
to do that. The thing that scares me with zone
and we did see last night both teams score against
the zone in the brief situations where.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
We saw it.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
But I'm like, I think, Okay, so he's been really
good against zone in this postseason too, And like that's
the thing is like we're talking about a really good
basketball team that quite frankly, like for all the stuff
that we've talked about Oklahoma City being young and inexperienced
over the years, every puzzle that's been placed in front
of them in this postseason run, they've eventually sold. They've
had their issues for brief stretches, but they've eventually solved.
(20:47):
It's even like Game one. Like Game one, it's the
super aggressive help on drives and they have a rough
offensive night and they solve it one night later.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So it's like at a certain point, I don't know
that there is an easy answer, but at this point,
this is what I keep coming back to if you're
gonna get beat up there anyway, like if you're gonna
get dribble penetration, might as well have it function as
a one on one rather than a one on two,
meaning like have that fourth defender back instead of having
(21:18):
these like two man down situations where Shay just toasted
someone off the dribble and now Nie Smith and Turner
are standing up at the top of the key trying
to rotate out of it. So, like I guess, I
guess it comes down to just whether it's zone, whether
it's a deeper drop functioning in a way where you
keep that fourth defender in a position to help and rotate.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah, And I think that's gonna be the puzzle for
Indiana really in this series. And as you said, Okay,
see's a good team. Maybe they're an all time team,
Like they're sixty eight win regular season team, They've had
an unbelievable postseason. They very well, this might be the
start of something special. We'll see how the series continues.
But that's the issue for Indiana in this entire series,
(22:00):
as it was for Minnesota, as it was for Denver.
And don't forget they destroyed Memphis as well in the
first round. But like, there just may not be real
answers for Oklahoma City with their amount of guys who
can generate offense off the dribble, because it doesn't need
to just be SGA. You said it earlier. Other guys
(22:22):
are getting opportunities to create in Game two for the thunder,
But every guy on that floor can do something with
the ball in their hands, or they can do something
in motion, like even Caruso, he wasn't just hitting like
standstill threes in game two, like some of them were
off of movement, and that's Alex Caruso. And then you
have Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren who had terrible game ones.
(22:45):
Jdubb a bit better, I thought. In game two. Chet
Holmgren was awesome after a really rough start for him
in Game two, he was great the rest of the game.
But like every guy on that roster, even Aaron Wiggins,
can do something off the dribble. So it's like, even
if you do, even if you contain SGA, there's somebody
else on this Okay see team or regardless of the
(23:06):
lineup Dagnault has out there, they can do something with
the ball in their hands. Even Isaiah Hartenstein on the
short roll can dribble once or twice to get to
the cup or make the smart pass. That that's what
makes them really, I think, an impossible puzzle to solve,
and sometimes I know it's like very like simple to
say that that's where the zone I think you force
(23:26):
them to become a three point shooting team, that their
frequency of threes goes over fifty percent when you're when
you play zone defense against them, you're just gambling that
they have an off shooting night when you do that,
because you're you're giving up open threes. You're just hoping
and praying that they have a poor shooting night. So
that's what I think Minnesota and Denver, especially the Nuggets
(23:47):
kind of gambled on doing because Okay, see he's gonna
shred you either either way. But I do wonder if
that's what we'll see from Indiana because everything you're you
said Jason about you know, man coverages or pick and
roll coverages, like there's no there's no real answer. I
can't stop thunder and Shae.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Like Shay is not the most vertical poppy athlete that
you'll ever watch, but his ability to change direction and
like go from stopped to full speed is truly remarkable,
and like because that's the thing, Like people don't realize,
like they're not sending these dudes up to the level
because they're worried about the pull up three. That's not
what they're doing, Like that Shae's not a good enough
pull up three point shooter to justify that. They're doing
(24:26):
that to try to stop him from getting ahead of
steam and it's just not working. And like the other
problem is is you could sit back all you want,
but he's just gonna go at that dude full speed
and probably draw fouls or end up getting around him anyway.
Like he's just a huge pain. And like the same
sort of at the level coverages, Jay dub was torching
too like a chet attacking off the bounce in this
(24:48):
game did a lot of a lot more work off
the bounce. I thought he was unbelievable defensively. Last night too,
I was watching the film, like his switching and like
he was getting stops on Haliburton, he was getting stops
on McConnell, he was getting stops on Matthin, He's getting
like it was he is so so so good. It's
crazy to me my guess is that what Rick Carlisle
will do is going to Game three, maybe with something
(25:14):
involving a little bit softer at the level stuff. But
I don't think he'll go to zone right away. Where
I think he would go to zone is when the
shit hits the fan in Indy, so like, yes, like
when they find whether it's in game three or game four,
they find themselves down ten twelve points, I think that's
when he'll do it. And to your point, it changes
the game. It takes them away from being a dribble
(25:35):
drive and make read type of team to more of
like a processing and shooting team, which again is even
though they're awesome, is not the thing that they're like
most renowned for, so really really fascinating stuff on that
end of the floor.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
I remember, Jason, I just looked it up. Fifty four
percent of their shot attempts are threes against zone coverage
in the in the playoffs, and then it's thirty nine
percent of their shots or threes against man defense. So
they're taking a ton of threes either way. But like
going over half of your shot attempts from three, that
that that it's really like, that's you don't have a
(26:12):
lot of choice against the Thunder, right, Like, the thunder
are gonna do what they want to do. But if
you do play zone, that's where you can influence the
types of shots that they're taking. So I think you're
right though, like when shit hits the fan, if it
happens in Game three or four Indiana, like Carlisle like
they wants won the finals the Dallas Mavericks against the
Miami heat The difference is Dallas played a ton of
(26:33):
zone all year long and then really you know, puzzled
Lebron and Wade and Bosh in the finals against that
Heatles team. But he did use it in the finals before,
and like, this is a guy who's used zoned throughout
his years as an NBA head coach, but not here
in Indiana. So I wonder if that's a card he's uh,
he's he's holding on to for the right for the
(26:54):
right specific moment when that time comes in this series,
and I'd be surprised if we don't see it in
a continuous amount of time in a game at some point.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
That's a really good stat like an easy way to
basically for Oklahoma City to settling for the majority of
their shots from behind the three three point line is
to go zone, and the stuff about not practicing zone
in the regular season is a really interesting point too.
The one thing that could work to Carlisle's advantage there
is just the long schedule and just the extra off
(27:23):
days to try to implement stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
But yeah, go game till Wednesday.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
What are we gonna do? Just draft stuff. That's all
I'm gonna be doing for two days.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
So Richard Jefferson and many others were upset last night
with this was me in the same way that you
were disagreeing with the criticism of Shay, I was disagreeing
with some of the criticism of Tiree's not so much
to me, It's just less criticism. It's more just reality
in terms of who he is as a basketball player.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
But what do you mean comment from Richard Jefferson.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, exactly the two d which, by the way, he
said in game one two, for the.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Record, well he did, but minutes before she hit the
amazing game winner. I'm sorry, I haliburned a amazing game winner.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
How did how did you like?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
What was your overall like response slash take to the
stuff surrounding Tyres and his aggression and all of that storyline.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
I mean, I feel like I'm team Richard Jefferson here
and I have been all playoffs long that I think
with Halliburn, I know he has some of his limitations
as a as a creator, generating space against especially against
like the elite defense of the Thunder, But like dude,
sometimes I think he's just too passive earlier early in
(28:40):
these games when we see what he can do when
he's aggressive late in games, like he twelve points on
five of six in the fourth quarter alone, five points
on two of seven through the first three quarters. I
just don't think Anyana has any chance of winning this series.
If Halliburton is taking only seven shots through the first
(29:00):
three quarters of games, it's just they're not gonna win
the series. Halliburton needs to be looking for a shot
more early, or the Pacers need to design more actions
to get him looks early in game speeds. He's two
elite of a shooter off the catch, too elite of
a shooter off the dribble, whether it's from three or
from mid range. And in this series, I looked up
(29:23):
the shot distribution numbers this morning because like, he hasn't
gotten to the rim at all. Seven percent of his
shots in the series against Oklahoma City are in the
restricted area, twenty two percent in every other series in
the playoffs, so almost a quarter of his shots were
in the restricted area up until the finals, and now
it's only seven percent. They're forcing him into more paint shots,
(29:46):
more mid range shots, and even from three, he's not
taking as many of those, so on self created chances,
this is the only self created chances. So with Halliburton,
if he's not getting into the basket, he's a near
fifty guy on mid range jumpers. I feel like, in
the same way that you said SGA took to many
of those at times in Game one, Halliburt is not
(30:09):
taking enough of those. In my opinion, he is an
elite mid range shooter, but he's all about rim in threes.
To me, I think that's an area that he can
exploit that he doesn't enough because he's sticking to what
he does at an elite level. But sometimes I think
you need to take, you know, the B minus shot
(30:30):
and not just always look for the eight plus play
because sometimes the B minus player the B play is
the best thing you're going to get in a half
court possession against the thunder. So I do think he
needs to be more aggressive early in games. I personally
think he should be taking twenty shots a game, not
fourteen to fifteen shots a game. And that's rerooted in
my belief of who he can be as a scorer
(30:51):
and who he can be as a creator despite some
of the athletic limitations agains against these elite defenders he's
facing every single possession.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, you know what's so interesting is last night I
was more like aggressive on this and then the guy
who kind of brought me back to earth was actually Jackson,
And because my initial thought was like I'm watching him
like because I'm watching him like trying to shake free
of these guards, and he's really not for the most part.
And so I was like, Okay, like there's a reality
(31:20):
to the fact that Tyresee is not the type of
athletic scoring guard that can just consist like that can
pull Kyrie Irving footwork out of his bag and like
knock down these crazy shots. But what Jackson said to
me at the start of the mail bag last night
really got me thinking. He was like he was like,
why doesn't he just take a few more of the
questionable like like to what you're saying, the B minus
(31:41):
shots at the very least to try to maintain some
more rhythm and it could free up some more of
those opportunities were like, the defense is reacting to him
more because he's being more aggressive. And so then I
kind of approached my rewatch this morning with that same
kind of ideology in mind, and He's right, Jackson's all right.
There were specifically some drop coverage looks, because what stood
(32:05):
out to me last night is I was like, okay, yeah,
the shots that he was getting in the fourth quarter
were drop coverage looks like they ran a stack, pick
and roll that Oklahoma City didn't switch appropriately, and he
got a dunk. He shot a floater against drop, he
shot a little right elbow jumper against drop. The toughest
one he hit was that one coming off of the
ball screen on the right wing that Jay Dubbed contested
very well and he hit like that three. But the
point is is he caught a rhythm. He caught a
(32:27):
rhythm and then he made a tough shot, which is
what happens when you take shots. You catch a rhythm
and then you can start making some tough shots. And
so I kind of have come back more towards the
middle in the sense that, like, I don't think Tyrese
can solve this series by just like putting up thirty
five points a game, but he absolutely does need to
be somewhat more aggressive, And to me, the example is
(32:49):
just taking more of those drop coverage looks when they're there.
So for instance, there was one where he came and
actually really resulted in an illegal screen on Myles Turner.
But there was a play where he came off of
a ball screen at the top of the key in
like the late second quarter where he came off and
Hartenstein was six or seven feet back, but he was
still over and Turner was rolling, and he threw the
(33:12):
pocket pass instead of just taking the pull up three
that was there. And my thing is like Indiana actually
did quite a bit of damage on action like that
in Game one on offensive rebounds, So it's like at
the just put it up and Turner's crashing with the
Hartenstein up not at the level but containing you on
and he's probably gonna step up in contest, Turner's got
(33:34):
a good shot in an offensive rebound there. So, like
I just think in general, there's a few there are
definitely more opportunities for Tyrese to look to take some
of those coverage beating shots. And at the end of
the day, like you have to be an active participant
in your team survival. You can't be a passive participant.
And so to me, I'm kind of occupying that middle
(33:56):
ground where I think he absolutely can be more aggressive.
I just also don't think he can be you know,
thirty five point per game guy.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
If that makes sense, it's it's understandable. I mean, like
the stat I shared seven percent of his self created
shots or in the restricted area, that that is not
the stat of a guy to your point, that is
like this elite ball handler breaking down to defender Carrie
Irving style, or this overpowering brute force athlete who just
(34:23):
gets to the ream at will. He is not that
he's Tyre's Haliburton is one of one. He's himself. Like
there's really nobody else like Tyre's Aliburton currently in the
in the NBA. But I think, like you, like you
said it, like Jackson said it last night to you,
sometimes I think he's gonna take some of those shots
and and like maybe there's certain nights you won't have
(34:45):
to because on a here or a Nie Smith is
going crazy or or a Nemhard it's his night, like
it won't always have to be that, but I think
there's certain games where Halliburton needs to feel a moment
and say, okay, has to be me tonight. And the
example I always bring up to me like Halliburton is
so much like a younger Jokic in the sense that
(35:07):
there was a time where Jokic would have four shots
in a game, two shots in a game, and because
he thought, well, I'm being selfless, I'm passing the ball
to my teammates. I'm I'm not a selfish player who
jacks up shots. I want to make my teammates better.
And then he learned, oh wait a minute, me being
selfless is actually doing the things that my team needs
(35:28):
me to do because I'm mis great as a player.
And he learned how to be a dominant score to
become a guy that's taking a kind of shots. And
Halliburn is not Jokic, to be clear, Jokic is a
talk about a one on one dominant, huge elite footwork,
different type of player who can do those things. But
I don't think Halliburton's quite learned that lesson yet that
(35:50):
for him to truly reach his potential and truly be
the most selfless he could be for his team, sometimes
that requires him taking those tough shots. Sometimes requires him
being the guy who takes shots four or five possessions
in a row. And I don't think he's learned that
quite yet. And maybe he'll learn it in the middle
of the series, because we have seen both Indiana and
(36:12):
both Oklahoma City, both led by a tony young guys
on their team, get better throughout the postseason. Maybe Games three, four,
however long this series goes, we'll see Halliburn have a
night like that and things click for him, like, hey, okay,
I can do these things and sometimes I have to
do these things for the greater good of my team.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It's it's fascinating with Halliburton in particular because I wonder
if there's a big picture conversation to have about because
you mentioned the difference between him and yok Yokic.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Can go get forty forty.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Five every night?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah, every single night?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yes, and so part like I was actually talking about
this last night on playback, if I remember correctly, Like
I wonder if Halliburton could ever crack into the top
tier of superstars, like if he's even capable because of
some of those limitations, But I do generally agree with
the point which is that which is that each archetype
has their demon they have got to confront, and the
(37:06):
playmaking types, if you're not applying a certain amount of aggression,
then they will play the pass, and your passing opportunities
will not be as rewarded as they could be. Similarly,
as a scorer, you've got to show a willingness to
beat double teams with the pass or you're going to
be shooting over double teams your entire career. And so
there's a certain amount.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Of like that.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
That is the demon that Tires has to confront. As
we zoom out from the series, I came into this
series thinking that Indiana had very little chance. I still
view Oklahoma City as a substantial favorite, but from what
I've seen in the first two games, I actually do
(37:44):
believe that Indy has a pathway and it essentially stems
around the fact that I think that they're fast enough
to rush Oklahoma City's ball handlers enough, Like for instance,
in the first quarter before things got ugly, I thought
that Indy defended Oklahoma City well again, and it basically
stems from the fact that and I think I heard
(38:07):
Zach Low is the first guy to call this out,
and God, it's been great, Heaven Zach Beck.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Zach was talking about how.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Some of these turnovers that Oklahoma City has comes from
the fact that INDI's defenders will stay attached to me.
I'm thinking it almost as like the ISO version of
back pressure. Like in the same way in a ball screen,
if you chase over the top and you stay attached,
it forces the guy to drive into the teeth of
your defense. He can't take a pull up. Similarly, if
you get beat in ISO, but you stay attached and
(38:33):
you're pressuring from behind, it kind of forces him to
rush the drive into traffic. I think Memhard and Nie
Smith can do just enough of that as a team.
They rotate and contest just well enough that they can
play Oklahoma City into some offensive roles. And then on
the other end of the floor, I think they've proven
that when they don't turn the ball over and when
they get the ball popping around and they kind of
(38:54):
expand the advantage incrementally over possessions that they can score.
So like I look at it as they can win
this series.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Where are you at? Where?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Where were you before the series, and where are you
at now? With respect to each team's chance to win.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
Well, I picked okay See in five like everybody else
on the planet seem to do, and I didn't give
Indiana much of a chance. I have too much respect
for them to have not picked a sweep for ok
See And obviously okay See in five is still on
the table. But one thing I did say before the
series was that if Indiana splits the first two games
(39:30):
in the road, this will be a deep series. Because
I initially thought that Indiana would split the games at
home and okay See would then win in Game five
at home. So I think we're gonna see a split
this week. That means we're gonna at least see a
Game six, and at that point in the series, who knows.
Who knows what could happen, Like Indiana will host Game six,
(39:52):
who knows. Anytime you reach a game six or a
game seven, anything can happen. And the Pacers have proven
me wrong. I thought they were just like a league
pass Darling during the season, like a really good regular
season team, super fun, and then they just be a playoff,
you know, team that gets eliminated, A good story, fun
team to watch. I was wrong. I was wrong about
(40:15):
them throughout the postseason. Here they are the NBA Finals,
and I very well could be wrong about them once
again in the finals. Like it's just it's possible I
could be wrong about them. But I do think Okay, see,
I still I still think this team is special. I
still think this team we're witnessing the beginning of a
really long run for them. Whether that means dynasty, multiple
championships or not, I don't know. You don't know how
(40:38):
the complexion of the league will change, how other teams
will evolve, either. But I think we're at the beginning
of like a really long, sustained run of contention for
the Thunder and this team is like, this team is
just better straight up and one of the reasons why
Indiana is able to be here. You know, Kenny Atkinson,
the Cavs head coach, said something after they got eliminated
(41:01):
in the second round where he's like, you know, Indiana's
you know, speed, athleticism and their physicality. He talked about
how there's like a mental edge to that for them
to have the endurance to sustain that from start to
finish in games, and I don't feel like Cleveland ever
matched that. New York never matched that from start to finish.
(41:22):
Okay See in game two, I felt like did match that,
Like that speed, that relentlessness, that that toughness, like those
intangible things that has set the Pacers apart basically the
whole season, since the middle of December where things really
started to click for them. Okay See has those athletes,
(41:43):
they have the depth as well, they have the stars
who embrace playing that way as well, Like Sga was
awesome on defense and game to the amount of steels
and deflections he had, Like how active he was on
switches against Siakam. I remember they tried to post him
up once and I think the second quarter, and he
just reached his long arms around and just like snatched
(42:06):
the ball out of the air. Like okay See has
that ability and and in ways that New York and
Cleveland don't have. And that's where I feel like the
Thunder everything Kenny Atkinson said about the Pacers, I think
you can also say about the Thunder particularly their defense.
(42:26):
So that's where I still I still lean heavily for
the thunder. But I'm not. I've been wrong so wrong
about the Pacers. I'm not. I'm not gonna say, oh,
I'm this time, I'm right. I might be wrong again.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
I might be Yeah, I don't belive you.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I've made the same mistake with them multiple times in
this postseason.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
I think.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I think the only series I picked them was the
Knicks series because I could not when I was picking
the first round series, the image I could not get
out of my head was Giannis against the Celtics in
twenty twenty two. Oh yeah, I was like in my head,
I was like, we haven't watched Giannis play healthy in
a playoff series since then, and it like didn't matter
that the Celtics were better, He just he just backpacked
his team too within, you know, a striking distance of
(43:06):
winning that series. I h One of the things that
I think is I love the point you made about
like matching Indiana's like mental fortitude, because like that is
one of the most remarkable things to me about watching
this Pacers team is their basketball character. It is like
the things they do all suck, like running that much,
(43:27):
and like like one of the things that Indiana does
that I think is really fascinating is like, even when
they give up an open three, they will throw a
token close out. And what's fascinating about that to me
is like they those guys know, they know that NBA
players when they're that open aren't seeing the late hand
that comes like after the release. But it's just part
of their character. It's like, no, this is what we do.
(43:47):
We close out. We close out every single time, and
we run the floor every single time, and we pressure
the ball every single time.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
It's like it's part of their character as a team.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
And Oklahoma City there's a reason why they won sixty
eight games because they also attacked every single possession during
the entire season, and so they were able to match that.
And so the last thing before we get you out
of here, I thought that Oklahoma City was able to
hit a level of like physical leverage in this game,
just athletically that Indiana couldn't match. And so it got
(44:18):
me thinking that Indiana's only pathway is to sweep the
home games, because in theory, if they won two and
three or three and four, that would be a must
win for Oklahoma City in Game five. So you're gonna
get that same athletic leverage and then in theory of
Game seven trophies on the line, same sort of thing.
I am not sure that Indiana can match it when
they get to that point. Do you think that Indiana
(44:40):
has the ability to match Oklahoma City athletically when they
need to.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
No, No, I don't, I don't. I don't like I
just I think I think that, Like I'm not gonna
roll out Indiana winning the series. But okay see, he's
just special, man, because they have those intangible qualities you're
hitting on. They have the elite talent level, and they
have the athletic edge. Like Okaysee had an all time
(45:05):
great regular season defense, they very well might prove to
have an all time great postseason defense as well. You know,
Halliburton hits the game winner in Game one, an epic moment,
but he hasn't been great, and neither was Anthony Edwards
and these are neither was nikolae okicic. So like if
(45:26):
this continues or even worsens for him, like if it
gets harder for him, because think about, like okay see,
to get to this point, they save their best coverage
for yok in the close out game, putting Caruso on
him and swarming him. They had their best game against
Edwards in the close out game against Minnesota. They have
cards that they're waiting to play that they had we
(45:47):
haven't seen hints of yet against Tyre's Halliburn, or against
Andrew Nemhard or against Passal Siakam, that they're weight and
use that they haven't used it, and so they have
that in the back of my mind as well when
I think about how we've seen the Thunder close out
teams to get to this point that we may not
have seen actual actually what their best game plan is
(46:10):
to win some of these series. So I'll still pick
the Thunder to win in six now, not five, because
I think Indiana will at least take one game at
home in Indiana. But you know what, maybe this is
a one Sixers Lakers type of series as well, where
Philly wins game one and then Lakers win the next
four and it's the beginning beginning of a run for
the Lakers. Maybe that's what this is, and the Thunder
(46:33):
are gonna sweep their way after a gentleman sweep their
way to a NBA Finals championship. We'll see. I mean,
do you agree there, Jason that like that's what we
could see here.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, I think if I had to guess what would
happen the rest of the series, Indie wins Game three
and then Oklahoma City wins three in a row. That's
that's gonna be my guest. I think there's like a
there's like a Indiana first finals game and god knows
how long I couldn't even tell you the last time
they were in the finals, and then it was what
early two thousands, right, And then you have the ball
(47:08):
pressure element like I had an Okay see fan ask
like or an Indiana fan ass last sign on playback,
like how does Oklahoma City get away with all these fouls?
And it's to me, it's like so simple. It's like
the team that comes out and plays with more physical
force actually gets a better whistle. That's just always been
the way it's been. Like if you come out and
you physically kick a team's ass, like you don't get
called for fouls. It's like the craziest thing. It's just
(47:29):
how it works. And I feel like it's just and
I'm okay with it too. I'm okay with the refs
rewarding the more physically aggressive team. But Indiana is going
to be that team in Game three. And we know
that Oklahoma City's offense is not rock solid. It it
can get knocked off its foundation from time to time.
So I do think Indiana will get one. But every
time Oklahoma City's been in a situation where they've had
(47:49):
to win, where they've had to get the job done,
even when they're in an ugly spot, like down eight
in Game four against Denver in the fourth quarter, down
nine in Game five in the fourth quarter, they just
keep coming through. And I'm I'm more on your side
of things. I think this is one of the special
teams in NBA history, and I at this point would
be really, really surprised. But I'm thankful for the Pacers
(48:09):
because they have made this an entertaining series and I
was worried that it might not be and it like
I will remember this Pacers team very fondly regardless of
what happens. But Kevin, you've been very generous with your
time today. I sincerely appreciate you coming on the show.
Can you tell everybody where they can find your work?
Speaker 4 (48:27):
I appreciate it. Chason over at Yahoo's Sports, I have
a ton of written articles, a ton of draft coverage
with my NBA Draft Guide. It's I think a year
twelve of doing draft guides draft covers, so yeah, drafts
is coming up in sixteen days. Kind of crazy. So
that's where a lot of my focus is right now,
next to the finals. So all that stuff over at
(48:48):
Yeah who Sports or whoever. My social channels are wherever
you get your stuff.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
It was good to see you man. Everyone follow Kevin's work.
That's all we have for today is always. We sincerely
appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show.
We'll have a mail bag coming out tomorrow, and obviously
we're gonna be live on YouTube after the final buzzer
of Game three on Wednesday night.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
What's up guys?
Speaker 2 (49:05):
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. They would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
The volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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(02:00):
All right, well to hoops to night here at the volume.
Happy Monday, everybody, If all the guys had a great weekend.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I texted Kevin O'Connor last week to see if we
can get them on to talk some NBA finals, and
in the text message, I said, fingers crossed for one
to one, and here we are one one as the
Pacers did some pacer things on Thursday last week to
get us into a one to one matchup. Lots of
interesting stuff to get into. What I want to do
today is just kind of zoom out from the first
(02:27):
two games and talk about some of the biggest dynamics
that are swinging this series one way or another. Kevin's
been someone that I've admired for a long time from Afar.
I've been lucky to come on his show a couple
of times. First appearance here on Hoops Tonight. One of
my favorite people cover in the game, Kevin, how are
you man?
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I'm doing excellent. Jason, It's an honor to be on
your show. What you've built is so awesome to get
that YouTube plaque rewarded with that with all the hard
work you guys and your team have. Donna. Yeah, so
it's cool to be on your show. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I'm like irrationally excited about the But I wonder if
that's just like our generation and just like the different
types of things that we get excited about. Like it's
so funny. It's just like like you know, a little
foam plaque, but it's something that.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
It's a physical reward. It's better than just like an email.
It's like something physical that you can feel in touch.
It's awesome. But they still do that.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, exactly, we were talking before the show. I wanted
to quickly ask you, Uh so, obviously you do a
lot of draft work in addition to covering the league
at large, and this year's draft is just so much
more talent heavy at the top, And so do you
actually enjoy drafts like this year more in terms of
(03:37):
like the workflow or do you enjoy drafts like last
year where you don't have the obvious stuff at the top,
but like there's so much to get into with like
the high variance guys down the list. What has that
been like for you?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
I mean I think for me, like I enjoy it
all equally in terms of like my side of things,
because it's there's stars in every draft, Like it's just
like there's always gonna be guys that end up being stars.
So how do you find those guys who are It's
always fun debating who are the guys you like more
than other people? Who are the people that you like
les than others? And why it's like last night, I
watched like every single Dylan Harper miss and I tracked
(04:10):
where he missed. I tracked like that he missed long, short, left, right, backboard,
Like I like doing that stuff. That's fun to do
for me, regardless of the quality of the draft. But
it is more fun when more people care about the
drafts and more people care about the draft, and when
there's prizes in the draft, and Cooper Flag being a
prize at the top, Dylan Harper a lot of people
(04:30):
do consider a prize. I'm not quite there with him
being some generational guard. I think he's really good. But
I think next year, in twenty twenty six, is really
gonna be probably the most fun draft class that I've
ever covered. I've been doing draft coverge since twenty thirteen.
My first Draft guide was in twenty fourteen. But like,
next year, man, like there's like three or four number
(04:54):
one pick quality guys, Cam Boozer at Duke, Darren Peterson Hansas,
and then A J. D. Bonsa, a native of Brockton, Massachusetts,
where I'm also from, going to BYU. At least those three,
and so like, next year, I think it's gonna be
insane with all three of those guys in college basketball,
all playing for big schools as well BYU big time
(05:16):
on the rise. So I think next year it could
be like the peak of my draft covers in all
the years I've been doing it. But it's fun for
me personally every single year.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
No, I totally agree, Like there's I find joy in
doing projects that don't perform super well too, just because
we love our jobs, and there's and there's you know.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Joy you're telling me, Dylan Harper missed missus being tracked
isn't gonna perform well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
The funny thing though, is like like it's I was
so pleased, like we we ended up in a pretty
big number after game one of the of this series,
and like that just made me so happy because I
was like, first of all, it's like thunder Pacers. You know,
it's this like relatively small market matchup, and it's ultimately
our job is fun, people care, and so I totally
(06:01):
get that, Like it's like you can find joy in
the minutia and we're never gonna stop doing that stuff.
But there's no doubt that when the people are invested,
it gets to be a ton of fun. Kevin does
great work covering the draft. Make sure you guys follow
him on Twitter and is your draft guide out yet?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Officially?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah? Draft guide is on Yahoo Sports, so you can
find it just you know, it should be pinned in
my profile on social media. But just search Kevin O'Connor
NBA Draft Guide twenty twenty five whoever your favorite search
engine is and it'll pop up.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So moving to the series, the number one dynamic that
I have found to be most fascinating between the first
two games is shake Gilles Alexander in his overall approach.
Was there anything that stood out to you in particular
from the first two games in just the way that
Shay approached generating shots for his team.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
You know, I felt like he was playing a bit
more to his speed in game two, But I I
kind of disagreed with you know, Doris Burke on that
broadcast said Shade was being over aggressive during Game one.
I disagreed with that. I felt like the game required
it from him. His teammates shot twenty five of sixty
(07:13):
eight in game one thirty seven percent, like pretty horrible.
I felt like they needed thirty shots from Shae in
game one, whereas in game two, obviously he got to
the line a little bit more. He took only twenty
one shots, not thirty shots, but his teammates also shot
significantly better, So I felt like he gave, okay see
what they needed in game one. But I do feel
(07:35):
like he came out in game two with a bit
more pace on his end of things, on top of
some of the tactical changes, you know, logo pick and
rolls further out, you know, more post ups and all that.
Like I, I was okay with his Game one performance though,
so I didn't really subscribe to some of the criticism
of him in game one.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This is awesome because we disagree, so that will make
for a fun little debate here off the top.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
So, like I, I.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Agree in general with the idea that there are times,
especially for a scoring archetype, and I would argue that
the playmaking archetypes over the years, the Jokiches, the Lebron's,
the Halliburton types, there are situations where they kind of
need to be more aggressive than they are because their
teammates aren't super comfortable.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
I did think that Shay.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Played a little bit of a role in his team
going out of rhythm in the first game, just simply
with like I'll give you an example, there was a
play where in the it was in like the I
think it was in the late first quarter last night,
where he's in a ball screen and he's attacking Thomas
Bryant and Hartenstein just wipes out Aaron E. Smith on
(08:43):
the screen and he comes downhill and he has Thomas
Bryant kind of like a drop coverage, and he's got
a pretty good look at like a little pull up
seventeen footer around the right elbow area, but TJ McConnell's
kind of sagging in off of Chet off of the
left wing, and he's sitting behind Thomas Bryant just right
(09:05):
off of that like left handed drive, so it's like
he's not there bothering the pull up shot, but he's
making it so that the drive he couldn't like, couldn't
like snake to pick and roll to try to get
back over to his left hand or anything like that,
and instead he just throws a little pitch out to
Chet Holmgren on the left wing and TJ McConnell closes out,
he pump fakes, he runs past him, and he ends
up hitting a three. And it felt to me like
(09:26):
that was a little that was a pull up jump
shot that both him and Jay Dub were just taking
in Game one, that like kind of fifteen to seventeen
on the shot clock, type of like decent shot that
we know he can make. And I remember in the moment,
you know what's so interesting, Kevin, I remember in the
moment watching Game one, being like, like, oh, like Shay's
(09:47):
attacking the finals like he is. He is not letting himself,
you know, shrink or feel uncomfortable. He's like, I'm gonna
find a way to get comfortable out here by taking
these shots that I know that I can make. And
I I thought that just in general, his approach was
a little bit more geared towards hunting advantages in Game
two versus hunting his shot. There were some pretty significant
(10:09):
differences in the numbers. They had a ninety six offensive
rating in the half court in Game one. They had
a one to sixteen half court offensive rating in Game two. Now, obviously,
as we know, part of that is just guys knocking
down shots, but they also generated more. They generated twenty
three unguarded catch and tchoo jump shots in Game two,
just fifteen in Game one. As a team, they threw
(10:32):
two hundred and thirty two passes in game two compared
to two hundred and seven passes in game one. I
did think he in general just kind of like let
the game come to him a little bit more, which
allowed him to again, this stuff is a lot in
a lot of cases like super supernatural in terms of discussion,
when we're talking about rhythm and flow, and it's like
(10:54):
it's very difficult to quantify these things, and it's always
going to be a certain amount of like subjectivity, and
it's up for debate. But I did think that Shay
just in general, made a bit a little bit more
of an effort to kind of keep the ball popping around,
some quicker decisions, some of those reads earlier in the clock,
taking some of those tougher mid range jump shots in
(11:16):
later clock situations, or as a counter sprinkling in aggression,
just to keep the defense honest. But like, at the
same time, I did think his floor game was a
little bit better. That said, I do agree with you
that there the young guys were more comfortable in this game,
and that certainly helps. And a lot of the times,
you know, these guys will react based on what their
(11:37):
personality traits are, like when Shae sees his teammates struggling,
he's gonna think. He's gonna think shoot the ball, right,
just like when Tyree sees his teammate struggling, he's going
to confront the issue by trying to pass the ball.
More So, like I guess my take is just that
I thought that he kind of was more of an
active participant in the team's rhythm in Game two.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
I think I think, like what you're hitting on, like
the supernatural aspect, you know, the feel, and like it's
these things like you can't understand by just looking at
the numbers, right, because if you look at the numbers,
which I have. Game one, he made thirty eight passes,
his teammates shot two of eleven on the assist opportunities.
(12:19):
In Game two, he made thirty nine passes. His teammates
shot eight of fifteen on assist opportunities. So like his
teammates shot better off of his passes in game two,
they shot horribly in game one, whether he was passing
the ball or somebody else is passing them the ball,
or they were self created shots. But to your point,
like that's where I think you and I agree, is
(12:40):
that I did feel he was just more comfortable in
Game two, he was just more comfortable. Whether that was
due to his approach in the game to your point,
coming out early looking for his teammates. Most of his
passes in Game one came in the second, third, and
fourth quarters, not as much the first quarter, setting a
tone for his team looking to pass, or whether it
was due to game planning as well, because okay, so
(13:01):
he was sitting screens further out more logo logo pick
and rolls where you know you have Indiana going over
screens in those situations where I feel like maybe you
want to go under when it's that far out, and
you have him posting up a handful of times as well,
Like I feel, that's where I feel the biggest difference
(13:22):
is that I thought in Game one there there wasn't
as much variety as there was in Game two from
Shay because, like I mentioned this on my podcast last night,
I had Adam Adas from All NBA on it, like
him and I were talking about Adam's the best, and
like him and I were talking about SGA as well,
and like I mentioned to him, you know, there's this
(13:43):
one play in the late mid or late third quarter
where SGA split a pick and roll. Hartenstein was on
a short roll. He found him immediately because he was
you know, Sga got pressured. He split the pick and
roll than Hartenstein found Cruz on a cup. But then
the next play, Sga got posted up on the left
block and okay, See cleared out everything for him. He
(14:04):
drew attention, kicked it out. Okay, so he swung it
around the horn and found Cruso in the right corner
four three. So it's like, I feel, okay, See put
him in different spots on the floor more often, and
maybe these things are all connected, where like him looking
for the pass more is in part due to some
game planning here with putting him in different areas of
(14:24):
the floor versus Indiana kind of knowing what Indiana was
doing in game one. As Dagnau called it after Game one,
it was a feel out game and maybe that's where
Sga felt it out and he just felt overall more
comfortable and the game planning was better and the teammates
just made more shots.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I did the same thing.
I was like, I was like, I'm feeling this strong
kind of vibe that Shay's hunting his opportunities more as
a passer in game two. So I wanted to check
the numbers, and I saw the same stuff you did
in terms of like the passing numbers being the same,
and my rationalization was with that was exactly what you said,
which is if in game one, I think he took
(15:01):
eleven shots in the first quarter, I actually thought Shaye
made all of the kickout reads in the fourth quarter
of that game. Like Shae was fantastic in the fourth
quarter of that game, getting dribble penetration through those guard
guard action or hitting the guy slipping out of the action,
and like the pacers were throwing sometimes two three dudes
helping at the basket, and he was making the kickout passes.
(15:21):
He did make those passes. The difference to me was
in game two he started the game that way. And
I've just always been a believer that if you invest
in rhythm basically early in the game, if you target
these opportunities so guys feel comfortable, there's just more of
an opportunity for them to be comfortable throughout the game.
That said, love a good disagreement, love a good argument.
(15:42):
I love the other stuff you hit on, Like I
thought the left block post ups were like a huge
development in game two. It just it puts the ball
in Shae's dominant hand, so it's really easy for him
to pass out of that. And like when he gets
into single coverage, he was able to draw fouls or
score against nemhart And and Mathrin, but at the same
time he was able to use it as just a
easy vehicle with which to get the defense in rotation
(16:05):
the part I want to zoom in on. And I
also just thought I thought you mentioned this too in
your bit, the like just in general, like it felt
like they were more willing to have Shay sit off
ball and let other people run action, which was another part.
Like there was a play in the late second quarter
or late first quarter where like it's like Shae's just
literally standing off ball. Why Isaiah Joe's running action with Hartenstein,
(16:27):
you know what I mean. Like they were just a
little bit more willing to let other people get involved
in the offense. And I thought that that was contagious
and that it just kind of flowed down the roster
as far as the pick and roll coverages go. This
is where I think it gets fascinating. So whenever we're
having these discussions we have to lead with saying.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
There is no good way to guard Shay.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
He's just incredible, because like any alternative that we're gonna
throw out here is gonna come with its own set
of issues. But one of the things that stood out
to me in Game one, I thought in the second
half they were a little bit softer in their pick
and roll coverages, which is why Shay started to get
some of his stuff in drop coverage. But everything at
the level in this series I think has been brutal
(17:08):
for Indiana, and the two problems I should say the
three problems that they keep having is one Shae rejecting screens.
So when they bring up whoever it is, whether it's
Topen or Turner or Thomas Bryant, that guy's setting up
to get on the side of the screen that they're
expecting Shaye to go. And then when he rejects the screen,
there's nobody there four on three. Or they'll throw that
(17:30):
hard head or switch with that guy and he'll quickly
split that now they're gone four on three, Or the
dude will slip out of it and he throws the
pass over the top and it's four on three. So
to Shay's credit, he has butchered this coverage with his
ability to generate the four on threes. Do you think
Indiana needs to consider pivoting to a different coverage to
(17:52):
try to have a better chance to contain Shay?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Is this why we started to see a little bit
of zone? You think? Is that possible Indiana sprinkling that
in a little bit in the middle of the third
quarter because Indiana they don't really run zone at all,
But then again, neither the Minnesota neither the Denver and
then Denver like a third of their possessions in the
half court or zone defense. I think from Minnesota it
(18:18):
was like ten percent of their possessions in the half
court or zone defense against Oklahoma City. With Indiana entering
this series, I believe the number was they had three
total possessions of playing zone. Those are like sideline out
of bounds plays when they would do that, but after
makes in the third quarter for a short stretch they're
(18:39):
playing zone. Is that why you think possibly because of
the issues with regardless of whatever the type of covers
are using against shape pick and rolls, that that could
be the answer.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
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(19:12):
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Speaker 2 (19:23):
So I think that in general, having a plan for penetration.
Penetration is the move. Now that could be zone because
if we look at it, so like what are the alternatives.
So if they're showing high whether that's a hedge or
it's a ball screen coverage with their with their bigs,
you're giving up these four on threes because you have
two guys that are out way out by the perimeter, right.
(19:43):
So like in theory, you could try like more of
a softer switch, you could try a deeper drop. There's
all these like different things you can try to me
the softer switch, the deeper drop. In particular, at the
very least you're going five on four instead of four
on three, meaning like as he comes off the screen,
you have one of those two guys who was originally
(20:06):
assigned to Shay at least back trying to help facilitate
your plan for dealing with him. Zone is another way
to do that. The thing that scares me with zone
and we did see last night both teams score against
the zone in the brief situations where.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
We saw it.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
But I'm like, I think, Okay, so he's been really
good against zone in this postseason too, And like that's
the thing is like we're talking about a really good
basketball team that quite frankly, like for all the stuff
that we've talked about Oklahoma City being young and inexperienced
over the years, every puzzle that's been placed in front
of them in this postseason run, they've eventually sold. They've
had their issues for brief stretches, but they've eventually solved.
(20:47):
It's even like Game one. Like Game one, it's the
super aggressive help on drives and they have a rough
offensive night and they solve it one night later.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So it's like at a certain point, I don't know
that there is an easy answer, but at this point,
this is what I keep coming back to if you're
gonna get beat up there anyway, like if you're gonna
get dribble penetration, might as well have it function as
a one on one rather than a one on two,
meaning like have that fourth defender back instead of having
(21:18):
these like two man down situations where Shay just toasted
someone off the dribble and now Nie Smith and Turner
are standing up at the top of the key trying
to rotate out of it. So, like I guess, I
guess it comes down to just whether it's zone, whether
it's a deeper drop functioning in a way where you
keep that fourth defender in a position to help and rotate.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah, And I think that's gonna be the puzzle for
Indiana really in this series. And as you said, Okay,
see's a good team. Maybe they're an all time team,
Like they're sixty eight win regular season team, They've had
an unbelievable postseason. They very well, this might be the
start of something special. We'll see how the series continues.
But that's the issue for Indiana in this entire series,
(22:00):
as it was for Minnesota, as it was for Denver.
And don't forget they destroyed Memphis as well in the
first round. But like, there just may not be real
answers for Oklahoma City with their amount of guys who
can generate offense off the dribble, because it doesn't need
to just be SGA. You said it earlier. Other guys
(22:22):
are getting opportunities to create in Game two for the thunder,
But every guy on that floor can do something with
the ball in their hands, or they can do something
in motion, like even Caruso, he wasn't just hitting like
standstill threes in game two, like some of them were
off of movement, and that's Alex Caruso. And then you
have Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren who had terrible game ones.
(22:45):
Jdubb a bit better, I thought. In game two. Chet
Holmgren was awesome after a really rough start for him
in Game two, he was great the rest of the game.
But like every guy on that roster, even Aaron Wiggins,
can do something off the dribble. So it's like, even
if you do, even if you contain SGA, there's somebody
else on this Okay see team or regardless of the
(23:06):
lineup Dagnault has out there, they can do something with
the ball in their hands. Even Isaiah Hartenstein on the
short roll can dribble once or twice to get to
the cup or make the smart pass. That that's what
makes them really, I think, an impossible puzzle to solve,
and sometimes I know it's like very like simple to
say that that's where the zone I think you force
(23:26):
them to become a three point shooting team, that their
frequency of threes goes over fifty percent when you're when
you play zone defense against them, you're just gambling that
they have an off shooting night when you do that,
because you're you're giving up open threes. You're just hoping
and praying that they have a poor shooting night. So
that's what I think Minnesota and Denver, especially the Nuggets
(23:47):
kind of gambled on doing because Okay, see he's gonna
shred you either either way. But I do wonder if
that's what we'll see from Indiana because everything you're you
said Jason about you know, man coverages or pick and
roll coverages, like there's no there's no real answer. I
can't stop thunder and Shae.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Like Shay is not the most vertical poppy athlete that
you'll ever watch, but his ability to change direction and
like go from stopped to full speed is truly remarkable,
and like because that's the thing, Like people don't realize,
like they're not sending these dudes up to the level
because they're worried about the pull up three. That's not
what they're doing, Like that Shae's not a good enough
pull up three point shooter to justify that. They're doing
(24:26):
that to try to stop him from getting ahead of
steam and it's just not working. And like the other
problem is is you could sit back all you want,
but he's just gonna go at that dude full speed
and probably draw fouls or end up getting around him anyway.
Like he's just a huge pain. And like the same
sort of at the level coverages, Jay dub was torching
too like a chet attacking off the bounce in this
(24:48):
game did a lot of a lot more work off
the bounce. I thought he was unbelievable defensively. Last night too,
I was watching the film, like his switching and like
he was getting stops on Haliburton, he was getting stops
on McConnell, he was getting stops on Matthin, He's getting
like it was he is so so so good. It's
crazy to me my guess is that what Rick Carlisle
will do is going to Game three, maybe with something
(25:14):
involving a little bit softer at the level stuff. But
I don't think he'll go to zone right away. Where
I think he would go to zone is when the
shit hits the fan in Indy, so like, yes, like
when they find whether it's in game three or game four,
they find themselves down ten twelve points, I think that's
when he'll do it. And to your point, it changes
the game. It takes them away from being a dribble
(25:35):
drive and make read type of team to more of
like a processing and shooting team, which again is even
though they're awesome, is not the thing that they're like
most renowned for, so really really fascinating stuff on that
end of the floor.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
I remember, Jason, I just looked it up. Fifty four
percent of their shot attempts are threes against zone coverage
in the in the playoffs, and then it's thirty nine
percent of their shots or threes against man defense. So
they're taking a ton of threes either way. But like
going over half of your shot attempts from three, that
that that it's really like, that's you don't have a
(26:12):
lot of choice against the Thunder, right, Like, the thunder
are gonna do what they want to do. But if
you do play zone, that's where you can influence the
types of shots that they're taking. So I think you're
right though, like when shit hits the fan, if it
happens in Game three or four Indiana, like Carlisle like
they wants won the finals the Dallas Mavericks against the
Miami heat The difference is Dallas played a ton of
(26:33):
zone all year long and then really you know, puzzled
Lebron and Wade and Bosh in the finals against that
Heatles team. But he did use it in the finals before,
and like, this is a guy who's used zoned throughout
his years as an NBA head coach, but not here
in Indiana. So I wonder if that's a card he's uh,
he's he's holding on to for the right for the
(26:54):
right specific moment when that time comes in this series,
and I'd be surprised if we don't see it in
a continuous amount of time in a game at some point.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
That's a really good stat like an easy way to
basically for Oklahoma City to settling for the majority of
their shots from behind the three three point line is
to go zone, and the stuff about not practicing zone
in the regular season is a really interesting point too.
The one thing that could work to Carlisle's advantage there
is just the long schedule and just the extra off
(27:23):
days to try to implement stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
But yeah, go game till Wednesday.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
What are we gonna do? Just draft stuff. That's all
I'm gonna be doing for two days.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
So Richard Jefferson and many others were upset last night
with this was me in the same way that you
were disagreeing with the criticism of Shay, I was disagreeing
with some of the criticism of Tiree's not so much
to me, It's just less criticism. It's more just reality
in terms of who he is as a basketball player.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
But what do you mean comment from Richard Jefferson.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, exactly the two d which, by the way, he
said in game one two, for the.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Record, well he did, but minutes before she hit the
amazing game winner. I'm sorry, I haliburned a amazing game winner.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
How did how did you like?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
What was your overall like response slash take to the
stuff surrounding Tyres and his aggression and all of that storyline.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
I mean, I feel like I'm team Richard Jefferson here
and I have been all playoffs long that I think
with Halliburn, I know he has some of his limitations
as a as a creator, generating space against especially against
like the elite defense of the Thunder, But like dude,
sometimes I think he's just too passive earlier early in
(28:40):
these games when we see what he can do when
he's aggressive late in games, like he twelve points on
five of six in the fourth quarter alone, five points
on two of seven through the first three quarters. I
just don't think Anyana has any chance of winning this series.
If Halliburton is taking only seven shots through the first
(29:00):
three quarters of games, it's just they're not gonna win
the series. Halliburton needs to be looking for a shot
more early, or the Pacers need to design more actions
to get him looks early in game speeds. He's two
elite of a shooter off the catch, too elite of
a shooter off the dribble, whether it's from three or
from mid range. And in this series, I looked up
(29:23):
the shot distribution numbers this morning because like, he hasn't
gotten to the rim at all. Seven percent of his
shots in the series against Oklahoma City are in the
restricted area, twenty two percent in every other series in
the playoffs, so almost a quarter of his shots were
in the restricted area up until the finals, and now
it's only seven percent. They're forcing him into more paint shots,
(29:46):
more mid range shots, and even from three, he's not
taking as many of those, so on self created chances,
this is the only self created chances. So with Halliburton,
if he's not getting into the basket, he's a near
fifty guy on mid range jumpers. I feel like, in
the same way that you said SGA took to many
of those at times in Game one, Halliburt is not
(30:09):
taking enough of those. In my opinion, he is an
elite mid range shooter, but he's all about rim in threes.
To me, I think that's an area that he can
exploit that he doesn't enough because he's sticking to what
he does at an elite level. But sometimes I think
you need to take, you know, the B minus shot
(30:30):
and not just always look for the eight plus play
because sometimes the B minus player the B play is
the best thing you're going to get in a half
court possession against the thunder. So I do think he
needs to be more aggressive early in games. I personally
think he should be taking twenty shots a game, not
fourteen to fifteen shots a game. And that's rerooted in
my belief of who he can be as a scorer
(30:51):
and who he can be as a creator despite some
of the athletic limitations agains against these elite defenders he's
facing every single possession.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, you know what's so interesting is last night I
was more like aggressive on this and then the guy
who kind of brought me back to earth was actually Jackson,
And because my initial thought was like I'm watching him
like because I'm watching him like trying to shake free
of these guards, and he's really not for the most part.
And so I was like, Okay, like there's a reality
(31:20):
to the fact that Tyresee is not the type of
athletic scoring guard that can just consist like that can
pull Kyrie Irving footwork out of his bag and like
knock down these crazy shots. But what Jackson said to
me at the start of the mail bag last night
really got me thinking. He was like he was like,
why doesn't he just take a few more of the
questionable like like to what you're saying, the B minus
(31:41):
shots at the very least to try to maintain some
more rhythm and it could free up some more of
those opportunities were like, the defense is reacting to him
more because he's being more aggressive. And so then I
kind of approached my rewatch this morning with that same
kind of ideology in mind, and He's right, Jackson's all right.
There were specifically some drop coverage looks, because what stood
(32:05):
out to me last night is I was like, okay, yeah,
the shots that he was getting in the fourth quarter
were drop coverage looks like they ran a stack, pick
and roll that Oklahoma City didn't switch appropriately, and he
got a dunk. He shot a floater against drop, he
shot a little right elbow jumper against drop. The toughest
one he hit was that one coming off of the
ball screen on the right wing that Jay Dubbed contested
very well and he hit like that three. But the
point is is he caught a rhythm. He caught a
(32:27):
rhythm and then he made a tough shot, which is
what happens when you take shots. You catch a rhythm
and then you can start making some tough shots. And
so I kind of have come back more towards the
middle in the sense that, like, I don't think Tyrese
can solve this series by just like putting up thirty
five points a game, but he absolutely does need to
be somewhat more aggressive, And to me, the example is
(32:49):
just taking more of those drop coverage looks when they're there.
So for instance, there was one where he came and
actually really resulted in an illegal screen on Myles Turner.
But there was a play where he came off of
a ball screen at the top of the key in
like the late second quarter where he came off and
Hartenstein was six or seven feet back, but he was
still over and Turner was rolling, and he threw the
(33:12):
pocket pass instead of just taking the pull up three
that was there. And my thing is like Indiana actually
did quite a bit of damage on action like that
in Game one on offensive rebounds, So it's like at
the just put it up and Turner's crashing with the
Hartenstein up not at the level but containing you on
and he's probably gonna step up in contest, Turner's got
(33:34):
a good shot in an offensive rebound there. So, like
I just think in general, there's a few there are
definitely more opportunities for Tyrese to look to take some
of those coverage beating shots. And at the end of
the day, like you have to be an active participant
in your team survival. You can't be a passive participant.
And so to me, I'm kind of occupying that middle
(33:56):
ground where I think he absolutely can be more aggressive.
I just also don't think he can be you know,
thirty five point per game guy.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
If that makes sense, it's it's understandable. I mean, like
the stat I shared seven percent of his self created
shots or in the restricted area, that that is not
the stat of a guy to your point, that is
like this elite ball handler breaking down to defender Carrie
Irving style, or this overpowering brute force athlete who just
(34:23):
gets to the ream at will. He is not that
he's Tyre's Haliburton is one of one. He's himself. Like
there's really nobody else like Tyre's Aliburton currently in the
in the NBA. But I think, like you, like you
said it, like Jackson said it last night to you,
sometimes I think he's gonna take some of those shots
and and like maybe there's certain nights you won't have
(34:45):
to because on a here or a Nie Smith is
going crazy or or a Nemhard it's his night, like
it won't always have to be that, but I think
there's certain games where Halliburton needs to feel a moment
and say, okay, has to be me tonight. And the
example I always bring up to me like Halliburton is
so much like a younger Jokic in the sense that
(35:07):
there was a time where Jokic would have four shots
in a game, two shots in a game, and because
he thought, well, I'm being selfless, I'm passing the ball
to my teammates. I'm I'm not a selfish player who
jacks up shots. I want to make my teammates better.
And then he learned, oh wait a minute, me being
selfless is actually doing the things that my team needs
(35:28):
me to do because I'm mis great as a player.
And he learned how to be a dominant score to
become a guy that's taking a kind of shots. And
Halliburn is not Jokic, to be clear, Jokic is a
talk about a one on one dominant, huge elite footwork,
different type of player who can do those things. But
I don't think Halliburton's quite learned that lesson yet that
(35:50):
for him to truly reach his potential and truly be
the most selfless he could be for his team, sometimes
that requires him taking those tough shots. Sometimes requires him
being the guy who takes shots four or five possessions
in a row. And I don't think he's learned that
quite yet. And maybe he'll learn it in the middle
of the series, because we have seen both Indiana and
(36:12):
both Oklahoma City, both led by a tony young guys
on their team, get better throughout the postseason. Maybe Games three, four,
however long this series goes, we'll see Halliburn have a
night like that and things click for him, like, hey, okay,
I can do these things and sometimes I have to
do these things for the greater good of my team.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It's it's fascinating with Halliburton in particular because I wonder
if there's a big picture conversation to have about because
you mentioned the difference between him and yok Yokic.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Can go get forty forty.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Five every night?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah, every single night?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yes, and so part like I was actually talking about
this last night on playback, if I remember correctly, Like
I wonder if Halliburton could ever crack into the top
tier of superstars, like if he's even capable because of
some of those limitations, But I do generally agree with
the point which is that which is that each archetype
has their demon they have got to confront, and the
(37:06):
playmaking types, if you're not applying a certain amount of aggression,
then they will play the pass, and your passing opportunities
will not be as rewarded as they could be. Similarly,
as a scorer, you've got to show a willingness to
beat double teams with the pass or you're going to
be shooting over double teams your entire career. And so
there's a certain amount.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Of like that.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
That is the demon that Tires has to confront. As
we zoom out from the series, I came into this
series thinking that Indiana had very little chance. I still
view Oklahoma City as a substantial favorite, but from what
I've seen in the first two games, I actually do
(37:44):
believe that Indy has a pathway and it essentially stems
around the fact that I think that they're fast enough
to rush Oklahoma City's ball handlers enough, Like for instance,
in the first quarter before things got ugly, I thought
that Indy defended Oklahoma City well again, and it basically
stems from the fact that and I think I heard
(38:07):
Zach Low is the first guy to call this out,
and God, it's been great, Heaven Zach Beck.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Zach was talking about how.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Some of these turnovers that Oklahoma City has comes from
the fact that INDI's defenders will stay attached to me.
I'm thinking it almost as like the ISO version of
back pressure. Like in the same way in a ball screen,
if you chase over the top and you stay attached,
it forces the guy to drive into the teeth of
your defense. He can't take a pull up. Similarly, if
you get beat in ISO, but you stay attached and
(38:33):
you're pressuring from behind, it kind of forces him to
rush the drive into traffic. I think Memhard and Nie
Smith can do just enough of that as a team.
They rotate and contest just well enough that they can
play Oklahoma City into some offensive roles. And then on
the other end of the floor, I think they've proven
that when they don't turn the ball over and when
they get the ball popping around and they kind of
(38:54):
expand the advantage incrementally over possessions that they can score.
So like I look at it as they can win
this series.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Where are you at? Where?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Where were you before the series, and where are you
at now? With respect to each team's chance to win.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
Well, I picked okay See in five like everybody else
on the planet seem to do, and I didn't give
Indiana much of a chance. I have too much respect
for them to have not picked a sweep for ok
See And obviously okay See in five is still on
the table. But one thing I did say before the
series was that if Indiana splits the first two games
(39:30):
in the road, this will be a deep series. Because
I initially thought that Indiana would split the games at
home and okay See would then win in Game five
at home. So I think we're gonna see a split
this week. That means we're gonna at least see a
Game six, and at that point in the series, who knows.
Who knows what could happen, Like Indiana will host Game six,
(39:52):
who knows. Anytime you reach a game six or a
game seven, anything can happen. And the Pacers have proven
me wrong. I thought they were just like a league
pass Darling during the season, like a really good regular
season team, super fun, and then they just be a playoff,
you know, team that gets eliminated, A good story, fun
team to watch. I was wrong. I was wrong about
(40:15):
them throughout the postseason. Here they are the NBA Finals,
and I very well could be wrong about them once
again in the finals. Like it's just it's possible I
could be wrong about them. But I do think Okay, see,
I still I still think this team is special. I
still think this team we're witnessing the beginning of a
really long run for them. Whether that means dynasty, multiple
championships or not, I don't know. You don't know how
(40:38):
the complexion of the league will change, how other teams
will evolve, either. But I think we're at the beginning
of like a really long, sustained run of contention for
the Thunder and this team is like, this team is
just better straight up and one of the reasons why
Indiana is able to be here. You know, Kenny Atkinson,
the Cavs head coach, said something after they got eliminated
(41:01):
in the second round where he's like, you know, Indiana's
you know, speed, athleticism and their physicality. He talked about
how there's like a mental edge to that for them
to have the endurance to sustain that from start to
finish in games, and I don't feel like Cleveland ever
matched that. New York never matched that from start to finish.
(41:22):
Okay See in game two, I felt like did match that,
Like that speed, that relentlessness, that that toughness, like those
intangible things that has set the Pacers apart basically the
whole season, since the middle of December where things really
started to click for them. Okay See has those athletes,
(41:43):
they have the depth as well, they have the stars
who embrace playing that way as well, Like Sga was
awesome on defense and game to the amount of steels
and deflections he had, Like how active he was on
switches against Siakam. I remember they tried to post him
up once and I think the second quarter, and he
just reached his long arms around and just like snatched
(42:06):
the ball out of the air. Like okay See has
that ability and and in ways that New York and
Cleveland don't have. And that's where I feel like the
Thunder everything Kenny Atkinson said about the Pacers, I think
you can also say about the Thunder particularly their defense.
(42:26):
So that's where I still I still lean heavily for
the thunder. But I'm not. I've been wrong so wrong
about the Pacers. I'm not. I'm not gonna say, oh,
I'm this time, I'm right. I might be wrong again.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
I might be Yeah, I don't belive you.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I've made the same mistake with them multiple times in
this postseason.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
I think.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I think the only series I picked them was the
Knicks series because I could not when I was picking
the first round series, the image I could not get
out of my head was Giannis against the Celtics in
twenty twenty two. Oh yeah, I was like in my head,
I was like, we haven't watched Giannis play healthy in
a playoff series since then, and it like didn't matter
that the Celtics were better, He just he just backpacked
his team too within, you know, a striking distance of
(43:06):
winning that series. I h One of the things that
I think is I love the point you made about
like matching Indiana's like mental fortitude, because like that is
one of the most remarkable things to me about watching
this Pacers team is their basketball character. It is like
the things they do all suck, like running that much,
(43:27):
and like like one of the things that Indiana does
that I think is really fascinating is like, even when
they give up an open three, they will throw a
token close out. And what's fascinating about that to me
is like they those guys know, they know that NBA
players when they're that open aren't seeing the late hand
that comes like after the release. But it's just part
of their character. It's like, no, this is what we do.
(43:47):
We close out. We close out every single time, and
we run the floor every single time, and we pressure
the ball every single time.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
It's like it's part of their character as a team.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
And Oklahoma City there's a reason why they won sixty
eight games because they also attacked every single possession during
the entire season, and so they were able to match that.
And so the last thing before we get you out
of here, I thought that Oklahoma City was able to
hit a level of like physical leverage in this game,
just athletically that Indiana couldn't match. And so it got
(44:18):
me thinking that Indiana's only pathway is to sweep the
home games, because in theory, if they won two and
three or three and four, that would be a must
win for Oklahoma City in Game five. So you're gonna
get that same athletic leverage and then in theory of
Game seven trophies on the line, same sort of thing.
I am not sure that Indiana can match it when
they get to that point. Do you think that Indiana
(44:40):
has the ability to match Oklahoma City athletically when they
need to.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
No, No, I don't, I don't. I don't like I
just I think I think that, Like I'm not gonna
roll out Indiana winning the series. But okay see, he's
just special, man, because they have those intangible qualities you're
hitting on. They have the elite talent level, and they
have the athletic edge. Like Okaysee had an all time
(45:05):
great regular season defense, they very well might prove to
have an all time great postseason defense as well. You know,
Halliburton hits the game winner in Game one, an epic moment,
but he hasn't been great, and neither was Anthony Edwards
and these are neither was nikolae okicic. So like if
(45:26):
this continues or even worsens for him, like if it
gets harder for him, because think about, like okay see,
to get to this point, they save their best coverage
for yok in the close out game, putting Caruso on
him and swarming him. They had their best game against
Edwards in the close out game against Minnesota. They have
cards that they're waiting to play that they had we
(45:47):
haven't seen hints of yet against Tyre's Halliburn, or against
Andrew Nemhard or against Passal Siakam, that they're weight and
use that they haven't used it, and so they have
that in the back of my mind as well when
I think about how we've seen the Thunder close out
teams to get to this point that we may not
have seen actual actually what their best game plan is
(46:10):
to win some of these series. So I'll still pick
the Thunder to win in six now, not five, because
I think Indiana will at least take one game at
home in Indiana. But you know what, maybe this is
a one Sixers Lakers type of series as well, where
Philly wins game one and then Lakers win the next
four and it's the beginning beginning of a run for
the Lakers. Maybe that's what this is, and the Thunder
(46:33):
are gonna sweep their way after a gentleman sweep their
way to a NBA Finals championship. We'll see. I mean,
do you agree there, Jason that like that's what we
could see here.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, I think if I had to guess what would
happen the rest of the series, Indie wins Game three
and then Oklahoma City wins three in a row. That's
that's gonna be my guest. I think there's like a
there's like a Indiana first finals game and god knows
how long I couldn't even tell you the last time
they were in the finals, and then it was what
early two thousands, right, And then you have the ball
(47:08):
pressure element like I had an Okay see fan ask
like or an Indiana fan ass last sign on playback,
like how does Oklahoma City get away with all these fouls?
And it's to me, it's like so simple. It's like
the team that comes out and plays with more physical
force actually gets a better whistle. That's just always been
the way it's been. Like if you come out and
you physically kick a team's ass, like you don't get
called for fouls. It's like the craziest thing. It's just
(47:29):
how it works. And I feel like it's just and
I'm okay with it too. I'm okay with the refs
rewarding the more physically aggressive team. But Indiana is going
to be that team in Game three. And we know
that Oklahoma City's offense is not rock solid. It it
can get knocked off its foundation from time to time.
So I do think Indiana will get one. But every
time Oklahoma City's been in a situation where they've had
(47:49):
to win, where they've had to get the job done,
even when they're in an ugly spot, like down eight
in Game four against Denver in the fourth quarter, down
nine in Game five in the fourth quarter, they just
keep coming through. And I'm I'm more on your side
of things. I think this is one of the special
teams in NBA history, and I at this point would
be really, really surprised. But I'm thankful for the Pacers
(48:09):
because they have made this an entertaining series and I
was worried that it might not be and it like
I will remember this Pacers team very fondly regardless of
what happens. But Kevin, you've been very generous with your
time today. I sincerely appreciate you coming on the show.
Can you tell everybody where they can find your work?
Speaker 4 (48:27):
I appreciate it. Chason over at Yahoo's Sports, I have
a ton of written articles, a ton of draft coverage
with my NBA Draft Guide. It's I think a year
twelve of doing draft guides draft covers, so yeah, drafts
is coming up in sixteen days. Kind of crazy. So
that's where a lot of my focus is right now,
next to the finals. So all that stuff over at
(48:48):
Yeah who Sports or whoever. My social channels are wherever
you get your stuff.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
It was good to see you man. Everyone follow Kevin's work.
That's all we have for today is always. We sincerely
appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show.
We'll have a mail bag coming out tomorrow, and obviously
we're gonna be live on YouTube after the final buzzer
of Game three on Wednesday night.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
What's up guys?
Speaker 2 (49:05):
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. They would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
The volume
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