Jason is joined by Sam Esfandiari of the 'Light Years Podcast' to break down all things Golden State Warriors including the totality of the Jonathan Kuminga situation, what Steph Curry / Jimmy Butler / Draymond Green need to be a top-tier NBA title contender, how Al Horford and DeAnthony Melton fit in the rotation, what they could get in trades from either the Sacramento Kings or Phoenix Suns, and more.
Timeline
0:00 - Start
3:45 - Jonathan Kuminga situation
8:11 - DraftKings
9:10 - When Dubs should've traded JK
19:00 - Sign and trade options
24:00 - Al Horford fit
33:00 - Warriors in the West pecking order
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. All right, welcome to Hoops and I here
at the volume heavy Wednesday. Everybody, Oh Paul, you guys
are having a great week. We are so happy to
(00:21):
have Sam's fondi Ari from the Warriors, who covers the
Warriors with the light Years podcast on the show today.
I was doing a mail bag earlier this morning and
we had a question that was asking about my favorite
off season moves and my least favorite off season moves.
And I was going back through and there's one team,
conspicuously who's done a whole lot of nothing. And Sam,
I've been seeing a lot of chairs on my social
(00:44):
media feed all of a sudden, I was hoping you
could kind of get me up to speed with how
the Warriors off season, how the fan base is doing
with this offseason so far.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
We are in the chair right now. That is what's
going on in Warriors Land. I mean, on the plus side,
they're not going to get nominated for worst move of
the offseason. Can't be nominated for worst move if you
haven't done anything yet. Uh No, it's been weird, and
like I've been kind of oscillating between frustration over like
(01:14):
what are they doing? And then the more rational side,
where it's like new CBA seems like there's a lot
of new behaviors that we didn't see in previous years,
and trying to rationalize it, like maybe this is the
new reality of how this stuff goes. Maybe it's gonna
be a little more like baseball, which no one should
really want to be, like where the free agency period
(01:36):
leads to players being unsigned until like a week before
players report for spring training or in the NBA's case,
you know, training camp. Maybe that's maybe that's the new reality.
Maybe that's the paradigm shift we're moving towards. So I
don't know, If nothing else, it's not what I expected.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, they finally make the big move, right the go
get Jimmy and I remember you and I. You and
I discussed a throughout the last season, like which kind
of guy they would potentially go after. It would be
a Cam Johnson, would it be a Zach Levine? I
remember you and I even getting into a discussion over
the pros and cons between Zach and Jimmy and like
what their fit is like. And I would argue the
Jimmy fit has been a resounding success. It is unlocked
(02:17):
a higher level of belief and motivation from Stephen Draymond
and tied so many loose ends together. But if you
look around the league, they still look before we go
any further, they still feel to me like a second
tier team in the West.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You agree with that, well, yeah, they only have nine
players on the roster, So yeah, like by virtue of
the fact that it's incomplete, I mean, if they go
into the season nine players, I don't know if they'll
make it to the playoffs. To be honest with you,
they might just not be healthy. But yeah, i'd agree
with you, Like a lot of it depends on how
they round out this roster. I think you can make
(02:50):
a case that they have a championship level core, but
because it's older, they don't just need two additional players.
They need like five or six rotation players that they trust,
and they probably need a little bit of luck health
wise to get into a playoff series fully healthy, which
wasn't the case last year of Minnesota. Then and then
(03:11):
we'll see what happens. But yeah, to your point, like
second tier at best right now, given that theyly have
nine players and two of them are two way guys from.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Last year, and there is that strong foundation, like I
do believe in Jimmy, Steph and Draymond as a core.
You're right, they're older, which means they need more support,
especially in the regular season with holding up for eighty
two games. But as we look around the rest of
the West and we're seeing, for lack of a better
way of putting it, just everyone else is making additions. Right,
every like Denver, you could argue is better. The Lakers
(03:40):
are better, the Clippers are better, you can the Oklahoma
City obviously is standing. Papa Houston got better. Everyone's getting better,
and so it seems like it's more the inactivity juxtaposed
with everything else than anything else at this point. Now,
the main thing that I'm looking at as I look
from obviously from Afar, it seems as though everything has
just been in a holding pattern based on the Jonathan
(04:02):
Kaminga situation. So what's going on with the Jonathan Minga situation?
How do you see this story ending?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, so I think it's important that we explain why
they haven't signed other players because you've seen the reports.
I've seen the reports like apparently Al Horford is a
done deal and Danthony Melton is as close to a
done deal as one could be, which leads to questions
like why haven't they just signed already? Right until they
(04:29):
know what Kuminga's contract number is, they do not know
which exceptions they have access to and which ones they don't.
So they might have handshake agreements, but if they sign
them first, it could trigger a situation where they would
actually hardcap themselves, and then another team could come in
and offer Kuminga a number that's legitimately too high for
(04:51):
them to match. Gotta love the new CBA turns us
all on to lawyers, right, So that's kind of what's
going on with that situation. But to the bigger question,
which is what you're asking holding pattern. I don't know
if it's bad advice. I don't know if it's him
having unrealistic expectations for his market, but the reality is
(05:12):
he sees himself as a player could be an all
star in this league, and he wants to be treated
and paid like one like the player I always think
of as Jalen Green. They were teammates on that G
League iig NIT team. From Kuminga's perspective, you know, he
saw Jalen Green go to Houston and get three years
of you know, thirty five minutes a game, figure it out.
(05:33):
You know, he got to screw up along the way,
and then at the end of it, he got thirty
five million a year, and that's kind of been the
number that's been floated out there. Kuminga wants over thirty.
I'm assuming that's the player he's benchmarking himself too, and
the Warriors, by virtue of the market and really using
comps of players similar to him, it seems like the
(05:55):
market says he's worth more like twenty. And so that's
kind of where we're sitting here, and I don't really
know what's going to force a move here, Like I don't.
I don't know what's going to force something, because it
doesn't seem like there's gonna be this secret team that
comes out of nowhere and opens up cap space and
(06:15):
throws this, you know, thirty million a year off a
sheet at him, And it doesn't seem like there's these
teams out there who are also willing to give it
to him and then negotiate a trade that satisfies the Warriors' needs,
because the Warriors want to get back a player who
they can use in their rotation and an asset for
him now, who knows what the actual settling price is,
(06:38):
but like all those variables are leading to what, honestly
like it feels like it's going to go another couple
of weeks at minimum at this point.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, I want to dig into this for a little
bit because this is this to me is fascinating before
we look to the future in what this could look
like in terms of retaining him or as sign in
trade or anything that could happen to restricted free agency.
What happened Jonathan Minga is super unfortunate and it's unfortunate
for the Warriors as well. It's unfortunate on both sides
in the sense that you're right, Like if you're looking
(07:07):
at the Jalen Green situation, even if you could argue,
I would argue that Jalen's a better player than Jonathan,
even though they're both in a similar tier. I think
Jalen's shown just a little bit more of an explosive
upside as a score, but to your point, with a
lot longer runway, with a lot more opportunity. But even
if you want to argue that they're in that same
kind of like situation, within that scope, I could see
(07:32):
why Jonathan Kminga would look at that and go like,
what the hell, man, Like, I'm stuck in this situation
where I'm expected to fit alongside this ecosystem that demands
these very specific things for me. Whereas with Jalen, he
was allowed to go and effectively be himself for better
or for worse, and that dictated this pathway that is
(07:52):
very different than what happened with Jonathan. You combine it
with the fact that we head into a specific summer
in terms of available cap space around the where it's
brutal for anybody to be a restricted free agent in
this particular summer, and so it's just kind of like
this confluence of really unfortunate events that has led to
this situation. So, if we could go back in time,
(08:14):
is there a specific moment within the last few years
where you think it made the most sense to trade
Jonathan and that had they done it at that point,
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Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean to me. As time goes on, the
most obvious moment was January of twenty twenty four, and
that was when he got benched in a game against
the Nuggets, and Steve Kerr benched him because he made
a couple of mistakes on defense and they were trying
to win a game that happened to be that game
that Jokic basically hit a half court heave to win.
(10:27):
It was like the peak of like what can't he do? Right?
Like he was just he was in like one of
those moments, but the Wards were winning. When Kuming was
on the floor, he got taken off and just that
that was a year's worth of frustration of him getting
you know, the short leash. Whereas you know, like obviously
like Steph has his games where he turns the ball
over but he doesn't get the short leash on a turnover,
(10:48):
you know that sort of thing. And he leaks to
he leaks to Shams that he's losing faith in Steve Kerr,
which is hilarious. He might be the worst player in
NBA history to demand it trade publicly at that point
in his NBA career. Like if you just think about
it as like, who are you to be publicly blasting
your championship head coach like this? You know, it's like
(11:10):
it's one thing if Lebron does it, It's honestly, it's
like one thing. If like Westbrook or like established consistent
all stars do it, it's another thing if it's a
guy who's proven nothing in the in the context of
the league. To me, that was the moment where a
more savvy front office would have realized this isn't gonna work.
(11:30):
This is not gonna work. The head coach, the star players,
they have very specific expectations and he just does not
want to buy in the way they want to, or
maybe he can't. There's always that the possibility that like
he's just too raw, Like the only way he's gonna
learn is giving him three thousand minutes with no leash,
(11:54):
and they don't have the space to do it. You know,
there's always that argument, which is to give him what
he needs to get to where they need him to
get to, they would actually have to be okay with
throwing a season away, and they were never okay with it.
And so to me, that was the moment they should
have done it, because he was right in the middle
of what was probably the best play of his career.
(12:16):
In that January he went on to I can't remember
the numbers, but it was something like, you know, he
scored over twenty.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Or something.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So it was just a consistent thing where you could
see the vision of what he could become as a
player right where he's just like, no one can stay
in front of him one on one. He's too quick
and too strong to be guarded one on one in
an open paint, you know. And so that was when
Siakam got traded to Indiana. And I know there's rumors
that Siakam wasn't willing to re sign with the Warriors.
(12:45):
We'll see, every player says that until you put the
money in front of them. You know, every player, every
player said, Jimmy was unwilling to go to the Warriors
until they said they would maxim. You know, he was
unwilling to go, and they said, how do you feel
about taking a you know, ten million of year pay
cut or something, and he's like, now I want to
go to Phoenix. You know, It's funny how those things change. Right,
So to me, that was the obvious point that they
(13:08):
should have done it hindsight's twenty twenty. Also, just from
a realistic standpoint, middle of his third year, it would
have given the team who traded for him at least
a year before they had to make a contract decision,
because now the single biggest issue they're dealing with, even
if they want to trade him, trading for him and
(13:28):
guaranteeing nine figures is a different thing than trading for
him when he's on a rookie deal and you have
eighteen months to figure out how much you really like
him and how much he's foundational for your team. So
for me, you know, it's easy to say they should
have traded him on draft night, but to me that
was kind of the one where it's like, okay, you
kept him during the draft. He didn't develop as fast
(13:49):
as you wanted, and you didn't have the space to
give him the play anyway, and now you have these
public outbursts in a way that's kind of unbecoming, honestly,
and honestly, the way they played it, I think only
fueled him to kind of have an attitude and a
disdain for what they're doing, because I could have seen
(14:12):
him getting suspended for that. You know, you could have
seen another organization be like, you can't do that. You
know you can't publicly do that, We're suspending you. But
they put him in a starting lineup the next game.
They essentially gave him what he wanted. So a lot
of it was hoping that, you know, this will come together.
I think hindsight shows us you can't. You know, human
(14:33):
nature is what it is, and you kind of have
to be a little more pragmatic and realistic in these things.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, I put down after the Lakers loss in twenty
twenty three, which is more or less the same trade cycle,
right like that that off season into the next deadline,
because like during the title year, I was advocating for
it at the time. At the time, I was thinking, like,
you know, this is a way you can push your
chips in you're effectively not using these guys, they're not
in your playoff rotation. Why not make some sort of
(15:00):
move with Kaminga and Wiseman at the time to try
to essentially maximize your title lots. Now, to Lakeup's credit,
he held off and you guys got the job done.
And so at the time he looked like a genius
because he's like, now, it's the two timelines thing. We
have a championship team and we have these guys that
could potentially develop into the next era. What he missed
there was just the lightning in a bottle you guys
(15:22):
caught with Jordan and with Andrew in that particular season
where both guys went down a level the following season
and all of a sudden it looked like you needed
more firepower. And that was when the move should have
been made. To your point, was at that point in
time when it was clear going into that spring of
twenty twenty four, they clearly don't have the same level
of juice that they had the previous season. I think
(15:43):
that was when Andrew was dealing with all of his
drama too, if I'm not mistaken, So like it was
right in that window in time where there was a
long enough window of time after the trade for a
team to evaluate Kamingo without having to pay him, whereas
now it's a complete the different equation when you're talking
about bringing him in with all that money, and it's
like and it's not even like a hindsight thing. I
(16:06):
remember most of you. There is a segment of Warriors
fans that is extremely high on Kuminga. But most of
the smart Warriors fans that I talk to and the
people who cover the team are in your camp, which
is talented young player. There's no reason at all why
he shouldn't be able to go somewhere and make good
money and make mistakes. But it's just not the reality.
(16:26):
This is the situation that they're in. And I do
think there's a certain amount of arrogance organizationally that they
thought they could fix John and I think that's where
most of it went south, or.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Just like do what's never been able to be done,
you know, which is the fusing of like two timelines
where players are vastly different stages of their career is
the issue. It's not inserting young players into a team.
All good teams have to find a way to get
production out of younger legs. Pretty Much every time team
(17:00):
you could find has some young player who plays some
form of a role, and even if it's just an
energy role, even if it's like what like Christian Brown
was for Denver, where you know it's necessary. Sometimes you
just need a guy who's got more energy and can
do things like that. They were dealing with players who
just radically looked at the game differently, so the fit
(17:21):
was just never there. And you're right, arrogance. Arrogance was
the single driving force behind it. It's flying too close
to the sun thinking you can do it all, you know,
It's just reality has a way of humbling everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Right, Yes, So if you had to choose between retaining
coming on a team friendly number, let's call it a
one year. You mentioned this before we went on the air, Like,
what if he signs like a one year, twenty million
dollar deal to re enter free agency? Would you rather
have something like that or one of these sign and
trade packages from a Phoenix or a Sacramento.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Based on the quoted sign in trade packages, those are
really hard to swallow, although I do I am increasingly
becoming a Devin Carter fan. I will i will say
he does check boxes of the type of player that
keep trying to trade for, but he's also young, so
who knows he'll be able to do it. Uh. I
think I'm still gonna lean on the sign in trade
(18:22):
and just put faith in the fact that they can
get a little more than what we've heard quoted. I
just think this is too far gone. I think him
coming back on a short term deal and let's assume
it's two years, his incentives are gonna be about playing
for himself as opposed to what the team needs. Like,
I just don't see how it gets better. And then
(18:44):
you throw into it like he's human. This is not
There's no way he feels good about this. He's gonna
say all the right things, but there's no way he's
feeling good about this. To me, it's like you you
kind of have to just cut bait and hope that
what she gets the best he can get, and like,
(19:04):
hopefully you can get a first round pick out of someone.
I don't even know if that's possible, but if you could,
then at least you have that to play with in
an ancillary move, and maybe the player you end up
getting for Kuminga is not the direct one for one,
but it's like you get something from someone, you combined
it with something you have, you move it in another direction,
and you bring a player who fits what you want
(19:25):
to do. More So, I just I think it's too
far gone.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, you know, if they brought him back, it's in
the same sort of situation where you go into this
last season where Kamingo was basically a matchup specific rotation piece,
Like he was essentially out of your rotation for major
games in major situations last year. And so if you
look at it from Jonathan's perspective, even signing like a
one year deal at twenty million, let's just call it
(19:50):
that he's sitting there thinking the reason why I'm in
this predicament is I effectively have not shown enough to
the league to dictate that I'm worth what I'm asking for.
So therefore, in this upcoming season, I need to show more.
And what would he have seen in this situation to
believe that coming back would give him the runway? He
(20:12):
would need to show that. And so I agree with you.
I think I think we've been since, for lack of
a better way of putting it, since that January twenty
twenty four kind of inflection point. This has been destined
for this sort of separation and it just hasn't happened yet. So, uh,
you mentioned Devin Carter? Is there do you think there's
is there like a dream player that you wish you
(20:33):
could squeeze out of one of those two teams in
assign and trade.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
I mean, my dreams keep getting smaller the longer this
goes on. You asked me about the Kings two months ago,
I'm like, ooh, Keegan Murray, that'd be nice. Now it's
now it's a much smaller ask. I mean, Kean Ellis
would be nice, like the Warriors. Okay, so if we
take a step backwards, Steph, Jimmy and Draymond. They're closing
(20:58):
in every game, right, that's your or like when the
chips are on the table and you're in the playoffs,
you're planning on those three players being the best they
can be in those moments. So what do you want
around them? You want defensive versatility with as much shooting
as you can get. Right, So, I know this has
been kind of a trendy thing, but like the thunder
(21:19):
or a great example of this, and the Warriors have
tried to trade for these type of players like Derek
White probably being the best in the league. Kind of
a point of attack defensive guard, but they also have
the ability to hit an open shot, make extra pass.
Basically just a guard who could defend, who's got length,
the kind of the Drew Holiday archetype. Kean Ellison Sacramento
(21:43):
is one of the better ones that most people don't
know about because he's on a team. Like he's the
type of guy who you put him on a good
team and everyone's talking about him the way they talk
about Caruso. He's not as good, But the same time,
it's like, wow, that guy makes so many winning plays.
Wow he took he really took Shae you know, out
of his offense and made everything uncomfortable for him. Oh
(22:04):
he's stuck three open threes like that sort of thing. Right, Like,
I think guys like that are harder to find. Uh,
then we give it credit for because people always like, well,
you could just find a role player anyway, Well, clearly
you can't, because there are all these teams who have
like championship foundation players and they can never seem to
find the right role players to go around them. Right,
(22:25):
So so that's that's one I'd be interested in on Phoenix.
I don't know, man, there'sn't really anything because it's like
it's like, oh, I want Devine, I want to take
uh you know. I he is objectively a winning player
(22:47):
who will help teams, and I think Houston's going to
miss him more than they realize. I agree. But it's like,
if there's one thing a team that Draymond and Jimmy
does not need, it's another guy who's doing like the
same things they do, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I guess. I guess I would in terms of the asset,
but it's like, yeah, no, they need, they need, they
need a different type player. So yeah, I think to
anyone who I can, I can confidently say, oh, this
guy's getting twenty five minutes every night I consider to win,
and ideally I'd like them to be under twenty seven
because this team needs. This team needs guys with young legs.
(23:24):
There's need guys who are gonna bring the energy to
those January games where Steph kind of wants to hang
out off ball for seventy percent of the game because
he's gonna have to do a lot of work later
in the season. And Jimmy just kind of wants to
play a facilitator mode because of the same thing. So
the more young legs that fit what they want to do,
the better.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, it's funny. Same thing. In the mailback question this morning,
I had a question that was like, do you think
teams are markedly changing the way that they're going about
their business this offseason because of the success of Oklahoma
and Indiana? And it doesn't actually feel like there have
been that many, you know, versatile perimeter athletes that have
been moving around. And one of the things I talk
about was like, there's just not that many of them,
Like we everyone wants the guy that can dribble, shoot, pass,
(24:05):
and defend and do it like with some size, and
it's just extremely difficult to find to find in the
modern NBA. And that's why if you could get a
guy like Keon, he's just the way you were talking
about with the winning plays. I feel like those kinds
of guys are always amplified alongside superstars, superstars that actually
set teams up with advantages and things along those lines.
(24:25):
I think that, uh, I think that in general that
that shooting piece is a big one. I look at
Moses Moody. Essentially Moses was bigger than Keon, but having
a player that could basically do what Moses Moody did,
but not go through the extended shooting roles that Moses
dealt with last year. Like the way his shot just
completely fell apart in the postseason was a big, a big,
(24:48):
you know shot at this particular Warriors team. I would argue,
and this is the next thing I want to kind
of get into, because I do want to talk a
little bit about Horford too, because I'm like really excited
about him. For you guys, I want to get into
that in a minute.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
He was to play for Steve Kerr. He's like, my god,
he's like one of five players in the NBA who's
never been on the Warriors, who if I just look
at them once, I'm like, oh, that's the worst player.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, let's just do this real quick. Actually, because like
I am, I think Al Horford is good. Like like again,
it's rumored that the deal is done. We'll see if
it ends up happening. Obviously, he's old. Obviously there's gonna
be you know, thirty games or so this season where
he's out of the lineup, and I think you guys
would be smart to kind of hold him in reserve
like that, But I cannot imagine a more natural fit
(25:33):
as if big Look for you guys in Al Horford,
are you as stoked asign it?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah? It's like, Oh, you're gonna run a bunch of
dho's with Steph Curry and you're gonna have to make
decisions based off of the way players are. The defense
reacts off him like he's tailor made for that. He's
he's couldn't to your point, could not be a more
natural fit. The thing I like about him also is
they miss that whenever Draymond's off the floor, you know,
(26:00):
Quentin post underrated skill as a passers, a rookie, you know,
like that sort of thing, right, and they've gone through
they've had issues finding guys who can do it. I
think one of the biggest things Al would bring to
the Warriors is it's not playing Draymond and Horford together.
It's having forty eight minutes of one of them on
the floor at all times dictating things, and it's actually
(26:22):
a way to keep them both fresher. What if they're
both playing twenty four minutes a game. We know Draymond
can still play at a high level. We saw in
the Minnesota series he got worn down. Why do you
get worn down? He has to play five the whole
time with an undermanned team. Like he's one of the
(26:42):
most energetic players I've ever seen. He is still human,
you know, Like, so even there are there are you know,
limits to how much he can expend physically. And it
goes to my overarching point, which is they don't just
need to get younger, they just need to get deer.
Like one of the best ways to keep the old
(27:03):
core healthy is have a ten man rotation. Make it
so that like I said, Draymond's playing twenty four minutes
a game, Horford's playing twenty four minutes a game. STEP's
playing thirty not thirty six minutes. You know, you're gonna
have games you chase. You can't be you can't be
in a situation where you have to chase the final
thirty five games of the year because you had no
(27:25):
depth in your twenty five and twenty five, you know,
fifty games in the season, which was the case with
the Warriors this year when they got Jimmy Butler. They're
actually one game below five hundred. They were twenty five
and twenty six, they had to go balls to the
wall just to qualify for the playoffs, and it's it
should be no surprise that Draymond looked dead at the end.
Steph pulled a hammy, which was an exhaustion injury from
(27:46):
what he had to do, and you know, Jimmy's was
just an unlucky contact thing. But like all of that's
a subject. All that's a factor of them playing what
was essentially a seven or eight man rotation for the
final two months.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, I think Horford is everything you guys have been
looking for over the last several seasons as a big,
like you mentioned, like a big that you can continue
to run essentially the same style of read and react
offense that you run when Draymond's on the floor, but
that also gives you a bigger look when you want to.
I'm excited specifically about like some matchup specific situations where Horford, Draymond,
(28:23):
and Jimmy are all on the floor together to close
games just because of their collective defensive IQ. There's a
lot of switchability there al. Horford still even as an
old guy, is one of the better switching bigs that
you'll have in the league, just because he's so good
at anticipating and taking the right angle to meet guys
at spots, and so there's a lot of like it's
a lot of like the upside that you had with
(28:44):
Quinton Post, but without some of the defensive limitations that
came from him. Just in terms of like Quinton was
like a straight up old fashioned drop big and he
just didn't have much in the way of athleticism around
the rim. Al doesn't bring the athleticism, but he brings
the IQ and the switch ability, which gives you some
viability there. You mentioned the depth. This is the key thing.
(29:04):
Because I was talking about this with the Clippers. Everyone's like, Oh,
the Clippers are so old. It doesn't matter when you
have that many guys. Like, when you have that many
dudes who can play, you can keep everybody's minutes at
a point where it's manageable. And that's like I would
argue that it's it actually has more to do with
the amount of wear and tear you're putting on your
players each game than the number of games they play,
(29:28):
or even sometimes the schedule, like a back to back
is nothing. If they're playing twenty minutes each night, and
it's not you know, if you could, if you could
play al twenty four minutes in one of the games
and eighteen in another, it's not a rough back to back.
It's a rough back to back when you're in the
tail end of the season and you got to push
everybody thirty six thirty seven minutes because you're desperate for
(29:48):
a gamer here or there in the standings and in general.
This is kind of how I feel about spending assets
to try to improve this team. In the Western Conference,
three or four wins could be the difference between the
four we're seed in a play in birth. A specific
player could be the difference between you losing to Denver
and you beating Denver. I mean, Cam Johnson for Denver
(30:09):
could be the difference between them losing to Oklahoma City
and beating Oklahoma City. These are pretty tight margins between
these teams, and that's why I've been kind of like
geared up on some sort of upgrade here. So I'm
astoked about Horford as you are. We don't need to
talk about Melton too much because I think we saw
him last year's natural fit. It's just a question of
whether or not his knee can hold up. But what
(30:30):
archetype of player if you like. Obviously we talked about
keyon Ellis, he's a three and D guy. I think
every team could benefit from one of those. But if
there was a higher level player that you could target
at some point this season, what do you view as
the specific need, the specific archetype of player that the
Warriors need to go into that top tier of contenders
with the teams at the top of the West.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I think it's ke else no, But beyond him, uh No,
I think it's they need so Melton is another player
who is a great point of attack defender, can hit shots,
can handle create a little bit. I still think they
need one more of those. And then I actually really
love a guard rotation of Steph Pajemski with less responsibility
(31:13):
in that in that potential role, because now you've added
Melton who will likely play less minutes off of a
knee injury, and another guy in that rotation spot there.
The other one is the obvious one, which is a
front court player, and they don't need to be a center.
But I'm looking at someone six eight to six' ten
who can hit some open. Shots the Way i'm looking
(31:35):
at it is if you Get, horford you Have Draymon
horford And Quinton post And Trey Jackson. Davis, Now Quinton
post And Trey Jackson davis are fine for backups in
the regular. Season What i'd really like is one more
GUY i can put next To horford and Bring draymond
(31:56):
off the bench, potentially or SOMEONE i could play next
To draymond if they want to go a little more
small and. Switchy, honestly it's what they were Hoping kuminga could,
be but it just hasn't happened for whatever. Reason there's
blame to go around for all parties, There so that
would be the Type i'd be looking, at and the
PLAYER i would be looking at to help get. It
(32:17):
there Is Moses moody and whatever they get in return For,
kuminga which is why SNEAKILY i could see the team
bringing him back just so that they could trade him
In january for salary, purposes no matter how awkward the
whole thing would, be no matter how much lying we're
going to hear during training camp about how happy they
are with each.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Other in, theory he could potentially have more options to
choose from in terms of versions at that, point just
because the landscape of the league ships and you had
a team a different match a different type of salary
matching type of.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Situation it's been like reported multiple times that the you,
know three, years maybe a player opt out after the second,
year so it's a short term, deal but it's you,
know it's not a one year, deal right in the
twenty to twenty five. RANGE i can actually see that
being a very attractive trade chip at the deadline because
(33:08):
you'd be acquiring a twenty two year old who's on
a very reasonable, number who you control for a couple
of years where you can really figure, out is this
one of my like core three pieces going? Forward you,
know because he is so young he is he is
still just twenty two this. Year he's gonna be twenty
three this this help coming. Season, SORRY i could see
something like that. HAPPENING i JUST i don't want to
(33:29):
go down that path because it just it feels like
one of those things where there's a lot of risk
of it blowing up and being an even bigger hindrance
the other. Way by the, way with that, said, yeah
like the obvious one is get me an athletic wing
who can play next To draymond Or horford in the four,
spot who can hit, shots who can. Defend that would
(33:52):
be the type of PLAYER i would be most interested.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
In, yeah you, KNOW i was talking about this with
the id A suns fan straight up asking mail by
question like should we Get? Kaminga and like WHAT i
said was like if you can get him at twenty
to twenty five a, Year hell, Yeah LIKE i do
think That kaminga has value at a number that is
below thirty and where he has a. Runway it's specifically
(34:18):
the combination of what he's asking for and what The
warriors need from him that makes that situation. Untenable if
you could be flexible in that, regard it makes some.
Sense and similarly to The, Warriors like to your, point
if he's on let's say he's at two years fifty,
million he's still a tradable asset at that. Point if
he's at two years sixty five, million that's where it's
(34:40):
like or a longer term, deal it's.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Like something like. That then you're attaching a pick to
get off of. Him, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Exactly do you think The warriors have enough? Offense this
has been something That i've been keyed in on for
a little. While, uh even after The jimmy. Trade just
like there's this pretty clear life to where like where
When Brandon pajemski shoots the ball really, well When Buddy
heel plays super, well you guys are borderline. Unbeatable do
you have any do you have a desire to upgrade
(35:11):
in terms of offensive talent just a realistic approach to what's,
available or do you actually think The warriors don't need.
That they need more athleticism and versatility and role players.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Well, being as they only have nine players under, roster
they need. Everything BUT i guess because we've debated this
heavily on our, show and there's been a strong push
to just add eighty two game. Players you, know a bucket,
getter who's going to just lighten the load On Steph
curry in the regular, season and how much it can
(35:41):
help this team just have a little more offensive, firepower
even if it's flawed offensive, firepower, RIGHT i, agree that
would be, Useful but if it's one or the, Other
i'm still going to lean into trying to get those
defensive first closing playoff players because the WAY i look
at it, is end of the, day if this team
(36:04):
makes the, playoffs it's gonna be Basically steph carry us
on offense and we're gonna. Defend AND i just don't
see a world in which them adding an offensive player
who's a bad defender actually makes them a better playoff.
TEAM i think it leads them to being more in
(36:24):
the middle than. Anything SO i know that's kind of
a cop out, answer but it's kind of like what
you saw with The. Thunder as far As i'm concerned
The thunder's offense at, TIME i was, like, man they
got nothing other Than, shay you, know that sort of.
Thing But i'd rather put a team of guys who
can grind and will defend to like they just they're
(36:45):
hard to score, on and you Trust steph And jimmy
will eventually figure it out on. Offense then try to
go the other way and add A Malik monk type, where,
man you, know you know what it's like watching a
team In january when those guys are, Exhausting, like, man
it'd be really nice to have some Like Malik monk
coming off the bench with a little juice just to
(37:07):
provide a little. Punch but if it comes at the
expense of like that, point of attack defender or that versatile.
WING i don't think it's worth. It so that's kind
of Where i'm at with. It would it's a nice to.
HAVE i view it still as a number two priority
in terms of need to.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Have, YEAH i LEAN i lean slightly more towards it
being something that they need in order to get into
that next. TIER i think part of it is my
overarching basketball, Philosophy like even With buddy Heel LIKE i
Thought Buddy hehil played the best defense of his career last,
season even though it was, flawed even though it wasn't,
perfect there were moments Where buddy was really competing and
(37:42):
doing some good work on that end of the. FLOOR
i like to. SAY i also just have generally looked
at The warriors offense as kind of a counterbalancing effect
where The steph And clay did this for years to
teams where it was it was the mutual impact of
both of them and what they brought on opposite ends
of the floor running in and out of action that
(38:03):
made them so difficult to. Guard AND i look at
teams Like denver who scaled up on, defense using intelligence
and switching up coverages and having just kind of HIGH iq,
defenders not necessarily the most athletic, defenders and them doing
as good a job Against Oklahoma city as anybody else
did in last year's playoff run despite being one of
(38:24):
the worst defenses in the league down the stretch of the.
Season i'm indexing slowly each progressive season more towards, offense
And i'm, Wondering i'm wondering how much of that will
stick for me in the coming, Years but, YEAH i.
DO i would love to see a guy next To
steph who could reliably get to twenty points on any given. Night,
(38:45):
now Maybe Jimmy in, theory it's and that's the thing,
is Like i'm hoping to get just a little bit
more offensive juice out Of jimmy this year. TOO i
think that could go a long way as.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well so that's kind of Why i'm, like adding those
two players who can, shoot like you, know the pie
in the sky would be like a you, Know Derek
white the shooting guard spot and Like Cam johnson at
the power forward. Spot like obviously neither of those are
gonna Happen camp specifically because he just went To, denver but,
(39:20):
like you, know adding those those players who can shoot the.
BALL i think will also Juice jimmy's offense a little.
Bit he scored the ball incredibly well up until he
had the glute injury that happened Against. HOUSTON i mean
he put what thirty seven in the playing game had
something like HE i think he. WORKS i think him
(39:41):
And steph. WORK i think they honestly need more shooting
and defensive versatility than necessarily shot.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
CREATION i think the shooting is the obvious, one regardless
of whether or not it comes in the form of
a high level offensive player or a three AND d.
Player they've got to have reliable shootings surround those. GUYS
i think that goes without saying, that for the, record
is Why i'm excited About. Horford, like if you imagine
a scenario where let's say you get a key On
ellis and you get An Al, horford that would be
(40:08):
such an interesting look to have that type of group
out on the floor where legitimately the guys who are
gonna be flowing in and out of action and popping
are gonna be guys who are gonna be knocking down.
Shots which is that like key? Difference All, Right i'm
gonna put you on the spot before we get out of,
here let's say The, Warriors let's just say they Retain
kaminga on a one, year twenty million dollars, deal or
(40:31):
they sign and trade him for just, filler Not Keon,
ellis but just, filler and they Sign horford and they
signed The Anthony, melton handful of other veteran minimum, contracts
but nothing like super needle. Moving let's say they bring
Back Gary payton something something along those. Lines where would
you rank them in The west without any additional moves
over the top of that.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Six mostly because in your car, CONSTRUCTED i think they're
gonna put too much On steph And jimmy's shoulders and
there's just gonna be like they're gonna be better than
the sixth. SEED i think that's just where they're gonna,
end Because jimmy will miss twenty, Games steph will miss twenty,
(41:15):
games and there'll be one of those teams, where oh
they're you, know if you look at, this they're actually
twenty twenty and five over the last twenty, five but
the overall record is forty seven. Wins that type of,
Thing and to your, POINT i honestly think it's one
of those things where if they Turn kuminga into the
right type of energy piece and make maybe get a
(41:35):
little internal, improvement plus A melton and A, horford they
might win fifty three games and be the second or third.
Seed you, Know LIKE i actually really think the margins
on that basis really do matter that much in determining
where they end up. Finishing and as you as you
said earlier and as we've, seen like The west has
been so tight the last five, years it's, like literally
(41:57):
but the dinner between forty five and fifty wins is
an ears between like the eight and the three seed
most of these.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Years, Playing, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Exactly a lot of it's down a lot of it's
down to health and your ability to to just have
a deep roster all.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Year, YEAH i look at that, tier and you can
make cases for and against all of. Them LIKE i,
mean you could Say minnesota lost and Kill Alexander walker
and they're a little bit older in their front, court
And conley's, older and Go bear's, older and you know
they're just not going to be as. Good but then
you could also look at me and go, like, yeah
but what If Anthony edwards like watched Shake yell Just
alexander kick his ass and spends all summer working on
(42:34):
stuff that's short to short to mid range scoring and
becomes a dramatically better player and The wolves are, Better Right,
Lakers what happens with so many different guys they have
that are older Age? Clippers what happens with so many
guys that are older age The? Warriors do they successfully
Turn kaminga and a couple of their other assets into more?
Firepower there's all of this, different you, know up and
(42:54):
down potential for every single one of these. Teams that's
why it's tough to put them in a, list and
it's easier just to put them in. Tears But, sam
this has been. AMAZING i sincerely appreciate you taking time
out of your busy day to come hang out with
us and talk Some. Warriors why don't you tell everybody
where they can find your?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Stuff, yeah pretty. Simple just check out the Light years
pod wherever you listen to, Pods, Apple, spotify, YouTube doesn't,
matter it'll be published. There we go pretty. Regularly we
live after every game in the off, season two to
three times a, week and whenever the kuminga thing, HAPPENS
i promise a breaking.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Pod The sam And andy And tommy as well do
amazing work With Light. Years make sure you guys go
over there and support. Them that's all we have for, today,
guys is. Always we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting
us on supporting the. Show we'll be back with our
mailbag On. FRIDAY i will see you guys then
The volume. All right, welcome to Hoops and I here
at the volume heavy Wednesday. Everybody, Oh Paul, you guys
are having a great week. We are so happy to
(00:21):
have Sam's fondi Ari from the Warriors, who covers the
Warriors with the light Years podcast on the show today.
I was doing a mail bag earlier this morning and
we had a question that was asking about my favorite
off season moves and my least favorite off season moves.
And I was going back through and there's one team,
conspicuously who's done a whole lot of nothing. And Sam,
I've been seeing a lot of chairs on my social
(00:44):
media feed all of a sudden, I was hoping you
could kind of get me up to speed with how
the Warriors off season, how the fan base is doing
with this offseason so far.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
We are in the chair right now. That is what's
going on in Warriors Land. I mean, on the plus side,
they're not going to get nominated for worst move of
the offseason. Can't be nominated for worst move if you
haven't done anything yet. Uh No, it's been weird, and
like I've been kind of oscillating between frustration over like
(01:14):
what are they doing? And then the more rational side,
where it's like new CBA seems like there's a lot
of new behaviors that we didn't see in previous years,
and trying to rationalize it, like maybe this is the
new reality of how this stuff goes. Maybe it's gonna
be a little more like baseball, which no one should
really want to be, like where the free agency period
(01:36):
leads to players being unsigned until like a week before
players report for spring training or in the NBA's case,
you know, training camp. Maybe that's maybe that's the new reality.
Maybe that's the paradigm shift we're moving towards. So I
don't know, If nothing else, it's not what I expected.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, they finally make the big move, right the go
get Jimmy and I remember you and I. You and
I discussed a throughout the last season, like which kind
of guy they would potentially go after. It would be
a Cam Johnson, would it be a Zach Levine? I
remember you and I even getting into a discussion over
the pros and cons between Zach and Jimmy and like
what their fit is like. And I would argue the
Jimmy fit has been a resounding success. It is unlocked
(02:17):
a higher level of belief and motivation from Stephen Draymond
and tied so many loose ends together. But if you
look around the league, they still look before we go
any further, they still feel to me like a second
tier team in the West.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You agree with that, well, yeah, they only have nine
players on the roster, So yeah, like by virtue of
the fact that it's incomplete, I mean, if they go
into the season nine players, I don't know if they'll
make it to the playoffs. To be honest with you,
they might just not be healthy. But yeah, i'd agree
with you, Like a lot of it depends on how
they round out this roster. I think you can make
(02:50):
a case that they have a championship level core, but
because it's older, they don't just need two additional players.
They need like five or six rotation players that they trust,
and they probably need a little bit of luck health
wise to get into a playoff series fully healthy, which
wasn't the case last year of Minnesota. Then and then
(03:11):
we'll see what happens. But yeah, to your point, like
second tier at best right now, given that theyly have
nine players and two of them are two way guys from.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Last year, and there is that strong foundation, like I
do believe in Jimmy, Steph and Draymond as a core.
You're right, they're older, which means they need more support,
especially in the regular season with holding up for eighty
two games. But as we look around the rest of
the West and we're seeing, for lack of a better
way of putting it, just everyone else is making additions. Right,
every like Denver, you could argue is better. The Lakers
(03:40):
are better, the Clippers are better, you can the Oklahoma
City obviously is standing. Papa Houston got better. Everyone's getting better,
and so it seems like it's more the inactivity juxtaposed
with everything else than anything else at this point. Now,
the main thing that I'm looking at as I look
from obviously from Afar, it seems as though everything has
just been in a holding pattern based on the Jonathan
(04:02):
Kaminga situation. So what's going on with the Jonathan Minga situation?
How do you see this story ending?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, so I think it's important that we explain why
they haven't signed other players because you've seen the reports.
I've seen the reports like apparently Al Horford is a
done deal and Danthony Melton is as close to a
done deal as one could be, which leads to questions
like why haven't they just signed already? Right until they
(04:29):
know what Kuminga's contract number is, they do not know
which exceptions they have access to and which ones they don't.
So they might have handshake agreements, but if they sign
them first, it could trigger a situation where they would
actually hardcap themselves, and then another team could come in
and offer Kuminga a number that's legitimately too high for
(04:51):
them to match. Gotta love the new CBA turns us
all on to lawyers, right, So that's kind of what's
going on with that situation. But to the bigger question,
which is what you're asking holding pattern. I don't know
if it's bad advice. I don't know if it's him
having unrealistic expectations for his market, but the reality is
(05:12):
he sees himself as a player could be an all
star in this league, and he wants to be treated
and paid like one like the player I always think
of as Jalen Green. They were teammates on that G
League iig NIT team. From Kuminga's perspective, you know, he
saw Jalen Green go to Houston and get three years
of you know, thirty five minutes a game, figure it out.
(05:33):
You know, he got to screw up along the way,
and then at the end of it, he got thirty
five million a year, and that's kind of been the
number that's been floated out there. Kuminga wants over thirty.
I'm assuming that's the player he's benchmarking himself too, and
the Warriors, by virtue of the market and really using
comps of players similar to him, it seems like the
(05:55):
market says he's worth more like twenty. And so that's
kind of where we're sitting here, and I don't really
know what's going to force a move here, Like I don't.
I don't know what's going to force something, because it
doesn't seem like there's gonna be this secret team that
comes out of nowhere and opens up cap space and
(06:15):
throws this, you know, thirty million a year off a
sheet at him, And it doesn't seem like there's these
teams out there who are also willing to give it
to him and then negotiate a trade that satisfies the Warriors' needs,
because the Warriors want to get back a player who
they can use in their rotation and an asset for
him now, who knows what the actual settling price is,
(06:38):
but like all those variables are leading to what, honestly
like it feels like it's going to go another couple
of weeks at minimum at this point.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, I want to dig into this for a little
bit because this is this to me is fascinating before
we look to the future in what this could look
like in terms of retaining him or as sign in
trade or anything that could happen to restricted free agency.
What happened Jonathan Minga is super unfortunate and it's unfortunate
for the Warriors as well. It's unfortunate on both sides
in the sense that you're right, Like if you're looking
(07:07):
at the Jalen Green situation, even if you could argue,
I would argue that Jalen's a better player than Jonathan,
even though they're both in a similar tier. I think
Jalen's shown just a little bit more of an explosive
upside as a score, but to your point, with a
lot longer runway, with a lot more opportunity. But even
if you want to argue that they're in that same
kind of like situation, within that scope, I could see
(07:32):
why Jonathan Kminga would look at that and go like,
what the hell, man, Like, I'm stuck in this situation
where I'm expected to fit alongside this ecosystem that demands
these very specific things for me. Whereas with Jalen, he
was allowed to go and effectively be himself for better
or for worse, and that dictated this pathway that is
(07:52):
very different than what happened with Jonathan. You combine it
with the fact that we head into a specific summer
in terms of available cap space around the where it's
brutal for anybody to be a restricted free agent in
this particular summer, and so it's just kind of like
this confluence of really unfortunate events that has led to
this situation. So, if we could go back in time,
(08:14):
is there a specific moment within the last few years
where you think it made the most sense to trade
Jonathan and that had they done it at that point,
it would have been better for both of the parties.
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Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean to me. As time goes on, the
most obvious moment was January of twenty twenty four, and
that was when he got benched in a game against
the Nuggets, and Steve Kerr benched him because he made
a couple of mistakes on defense and they were trying
to win a game that happened to be that game
that Jokic basically hit a half court heave to win.
(10:27):
It was like the peak of like what can't he do? Right?
Like he was just he was in like one of
those moments, but the Wards were winning. When Kuming was
on the floor, he got taken off and just that
that was a year's worth of frustration of him getting
you know, the short leash. Whereas you know, like obviously
like Steph has his games where he turns the ball
over but he doesn't get the short leash on a turnover,
(10:48):
you know that sort of thing. And he leaks to
he leaks to Shams that he's losing faith in Steve Kerr,
which is hilarious. He might be the worst player in
NBA history to demand it trade publicly at that point
in his NBA career. Like if you just think about
it as like, who are you to be publicly blasting
your championship head coach like this? You know, it's like
(11:10):
it's one thing if Lebron does it, It's honestly, it's
like one thing. If like Westbrook or like established consistent
all stars do it, it's another thing if it's a
guy who's proven nothing in the in the context of
the league. To me, that was the moment where a
more savvy front office would have realized this isn't gonna work.
(11:30):
This is not gonna work. The head coach, the star players,
they have very specific expectations and he just does not
want to buy in the way they want to, or
maybe he can't. There's always that the possibility that like
he's just too raw, Like the only way he's gonna
learn is giving him three thousand minutes with no leash,
(11:54):
and they don't have the space to do it. You know,
there's always that argument, which is to give him what
he needs to get to where they need him to
get to, they would actually have to be okay with
throwing a season away, and they were never okay with it.
And so to me, that was the moment they should
have done it, because he was right in the middle
of what was probably the best play of his career.
(12:16):
In that January he went on to I can't remember
the numbers, but it was something like, you know, he
scored over twenty.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Or something.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So it was just a consistent thing where you could
see the vision of what he could become as a
player right where he's just like, no one can stay
in front of him one on one. He's too quick
and too strong to be guarded one on one in
an open paint, you know. And so that was when
Siakam got traded to Indiana. And I know there's rumors
that Siakam wasn't willing to re sign with the Warriors.
(12:45):
We'll see, every player says that until you put the
money in front of them. You know, every player, every
player said, Jimmy was unwilling to go to the Warriors
until they said they would maxim. You know, he was
unwilling to go, and they said, how do you feel
about taking a you know, ten million of year pay
cut or something, and he's like, now I want to
go to Phoenix. You know, It's funny how those things change. Right,
So to me, that was the obvious point that they
(13:08):
should have done it hindsight's twenty twenty. Also, just from
a realistic standpoint, middle of his third year, it would
have given the team who traded for him at least
a year before they had to make a contract decision,
because now the single biggest issue they're dealing with, even
if they want to trade him, trading for him and
(13:28):
guaranteeing nine figures is a different thing than trading for
him when he's on a rookie deal and you have
eighteen months to figure out how much you really like
him and how much he's foundational for your team. So
for me, you know, it's easy to say they should
have traded him on draft night, but to me that
was kind of the one where it's like, okay, you
kept him during the draft. He didn't develop as fast
(13:49):
as you wanted, and you didn't have the space to
give him the play anyway, and now you have these
public outbursts in a way that's kind of unbecoming, honestly,
and honestly, the way they played it, I think only
fueled him to kind of have an attitude and a
disdain for what they're doing, because I could have seen
(14:12):
him getting suspended for that. You know, you could have
seen another organization be like, you can't do that. You
know you can't publicly do that, We're suspending you. But
they put him in a starting lineup the next game.
They essentially gave him what he wanted. So a lot
of it was hoping that, you know, this will come together.
I think hindsight shows us you can't. You know, human
(14:33):
nature is what it is, and you kind of have
to be a little more pragmatic and realistic in these things.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, I put down after the Lakers loss in twenty
twenty three, which is more or less the same trade cycle,
right like that that off season into the next deadline,
because like during the title year, I was advocating for
it at the time. At the time, I was thinking, like,
you know, this is a way you can push your
chips in you're effectively not using these guys, they're not
in your playoff rotation. Why not make some sort of
(15:00):
move with Kaminga and Wiseman at the time to try
to essentially maximize your title lots. Now, to Lakeup's credit,
he held off and you guys got the job done.
And so at the time he looked like a genius
because he's like, now, it's the two timelines thing. We
have a championship team and we have these guys that
could potentially develop into the next era. What he missed
there was just the lightning in a bottle you guys
(15:22):
caught with Jordan and with Andrew in that particular season
where both guys went down a level the following season
and all of a sudden it looked like you needed
more firepower. And that was when the move should have
been made. To your point, was at that point in
time when it was clear going into that spring of
twenty twenty four, they clearly don't have the same level
of juice that they had the previous season. I think
(15:43):
that was when Andrew was dealing with all of his
drama too, if I'm not mistaken, So like it was
right in that window in time where there was a
long enough window of time after the trade for a
team to evaluate Kamingo without having to pay him, whereas
now it's a complete the different equation when you're talking
about bringing him in with all that money, and it's
like and it's not even like a hindsight thing. I
(16:06):
remember most of you. There is a segment of Warriors
fans that is extremely high on Kuminga. But most of
the smart Warriors fans that I talk to and the
people who cover the team are in your camp, which
is talented young player. There's no reason at all why
he shouldn't be able to go somewhere and make good
money and make mistakes. But it's just not the reality.
(16:26):
This is the situation that they're in. And I do
think there's a certain amount of arrogance organizationally that they
thought they could fix John and I think that's where
most of it went south, or.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Just like do what's never been able to be done,
you know, which is the fusing of like two timelines
where players are vastly different stages of their career is
the issue. It's not inserting young players into a team.
All good teams have to find a way to get
production out of younger legs. Pretty Much every time team
(17:00):
you could find has some young player who plays some
form of a role, and even if it's just an
energy role, even if it's like what like Christian Brown
was for Denver, where you know it's necessary. Sometimes you
just need a guy who's got more energy and can
do things like that. They were dealing with players who
just radically looked at the game differently, so the fit
(17:21):
was just never there. And you're right, arrogance. Arrogance was
the single driving force behind it. It's flying too close
to the sun thinking you can do it all, you know,
It's just reality has a way of humbling everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Right, Yes, So if you had to choose between retaining
coming on a team friendly number, let's call it a
one year. You mentioned this before we went on the air, Like,
what if he signs like a one year, twenty million
dollar deal to re enter free agency? Would you rather
have something like that or one of these sign and
trade packages from a Phoenix or a Sacramento.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Based on the quoted sign in trade packages, those are
really hard to swallow, although I do I am increasingly
becoming a Devin Carter fan. I will i will say
he does check boxes of the type of player that
keep trying to trade for, but he's also young, so
who knows he'll be able to do it. Uh. I
think I'm still gonna lean on the sign in trade
(18:22):
and just put faith in the fact that they can
get a little more than what we've heard quoted. I
just think this is too far gone. I think him
coming back on a short term deal and let's assume
it's two years, his incentives are gonna be about playing
for himself as opposed to what the team needs. Like,
I just don't see how it gets better. And then
(18:44):
you throw into it like he's human. This is not
There's no way he feels good about this. He's gonna
say all the right things, but there's no way he's
feeling good about this. To me, it's like you you
kind of have to just cut bait and hope that
what she gets the best he can get, and like,
(19:04):
hopefully you can get a first round pick out of someone.
I don't even know if that's possible, but if you could,
then at least you have that to play with in
an ancillary move, and maybe the player you end up
getting for Kuminga is not the direct one for one,
but it's like you get something from someone, you combined
it with something you have, you move it in another direction,
and you bring a player who fits what you want
(19:25):
to do. More So, I just I think it's too
far gone.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, you know, if they brought him back, it's in
the same sort of situation where you go into this
last season where Kamingo was basically a matchup specific rotation piece,
Like he was essentially out of your rotation for major
games in major situations last year. And so if you
look at it from Jonathan's perspective, even signing like a
one year deal at twenty million, let's just call it
(19:50):
that he's sitting there thinking the reason why I'm in
this predicament is I effectively have not shown enough to
the league to dictate that I'm worth what I'm asking for.
So therefore, in this upcoming season, I need to show more.
And what would he have seen in this situation to
believe that coming back would give him the runway? He
(20:12):
would need to show that. And so I agree with you.
I think I think we've been since, for lack of
a better way of putting it, since that January twenty
twenty four kind of inflection point. This has been destined
for this sort of separation and it just hasn't happened yet. So, uh,
you mentioned Devin Carter? Is there do you think there's
is there like a dream player that you wish you
(20:33):
could squeeze out of one of those two teams in
assign and trade.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
I mean, my dreams keep getting smaller the longer this
goes on. You asked me about the Kings two months ago,
I'm like, ooh, Keegan Murray, that'd be nice. Now it's
now it's a much smaller ask. I mean, Kean Ellis
would be nice, like the Warriors. Okay, so if we
take a step backwards, Steph, Jimmy and Draymond. They're closing
(20:58):
in every game, right, that's your or like when the
chips are on the table and you're in the playoffs,
you're planning on those three players being the best they
can be in those moments. So what do you want
around them? You want defensive versatility with as much shooting
as you can get. Right, So, I know this has
been kind of a trendy thing, but like the thunder
(21:19):
or a great example of this, and the Warriors have
tried to trade for these type of players like Derek
White probably being the best in the league. Kind of
a point of attack defensive guard, but they also have
the ability to hit an open shot, make extra pass.
Basically just a guard who could defend, who's got length,
the kind of the Drew Holiday archetype. Kean Ellison Sacramento
(21:43):
is one of the better ones that most people don't
know about because he's on a team. Like he's the
type of guy who you put him on a good
team and everyone's talking about him the way they talk
about Caruso. He's not as good, But the same time,
it's like, wow, that guy makes so many winning plays.
Wow he took he really took Shae you know, out
of his offense and made everything uncomfortable for him. Oh
(22:04):
he's stuck three open threes like that sort of thing. Right, Like,
I think guys like that are harder to find. Uh,
then we give it credit for because people always like, well,
you could just find a role player anyway, Well, clearly
you can't, because there are all these teams who have
like championship foundation players and they can never seem to
find the right role players to go around them. Right,
(22:25):
So so that's that's one I'd be interested in on Phoenix.
I don't know, man, there'sn't really anything because it's like
it's like, oh, I want Devine, I want to take
uh you know. I he is objectively a winning player
(22:47):
who will help teams, and I think Houston's going to
miss him more than they realize. I agree. But it's like,
if there's one thing a team that Draymond and Jimmy
does not need, it's another guy who's doing like the
same things they do, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I guess. I guess I would in terms of the asset,
but it's like, yeah, no, they need, they need, they
need a different type player. So yeah, I think to
anyone who I can, I can confidently say, oh, this
guy's getting twenty five minutes every night I consider to win,
and ideally I'd like them to be under twenty seven
because this team needs. This team needs guys with young legs.
(23:24):
There's need guys who are gonna bring the energy to
those January games where Steph kind of wants to hang
out off ball for seventy percent of the game because
he's gonna have to do a lot of work later
in the season. And Jimmy just kind of wants to
play a facilitator mode because of the same thing. So
the more young legs that fit what they want to do,
the better.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, it's funny. Same thing. In the mailback question this morning,
I had a question that was like, do you think
teams are markedly changing the way that they're going about
their business this offseason because of the success of Oklahoma
and Indiana? And it doesn't actually feel like there have
been that many, you know, versatile perimeter athletes that have
been moving around. And one of the things I talk
about was like, there's just not that many of them,
Like we everyone wants the guy that can dribble, shoot, pass,
(24:05):
and defend and do it like with some size, and
it's just extremely difficult to find to find in the
modern NBA. And that's why if you could get a
guy like Keon, he's just the way you were talking
about with the winning plays. I feel like those kinds
of guys are always amplified alongside superstars, superstars that actually
set teams up with advantages and things along those lines.
(24:25):
I think that, uh, I think that in general that
that shooting piece is a big one. I look at
Moses Moody. Essentially Moses was bigger than Keon, but having
a player that could basically do what Moses Moody did,
but not go through the extended shooting roles that Moses
dealt with last year. Like the way his shot just
completely fell apart in the postseason was a big, a big,
(24:48):
you know shot at this particular Warriors team. I would argue,
and this is the next thing I want to kind
of get into, because I do want to talk a
little bit about Horford too, because I'm like really excited
about him. For you guys, I want to get into
that in a minute.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
He was to play for Steve Kerr. He's like, my god,
he's like one of five players in the NBA who's
never been on the Warriors, who if I just look
at them once, I'm like, oh, that's the worst player.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, let's just do this real quick. Actually, because like
I am, I think Al Horford is good. Like like again,
it's rumored that the deal is done. We'll see if
it ends up happening. Obviously, he's old. Obviously there's gonna
be you know, thirty games or so this season where
he's out of the lineup, and I think you guys
would be smart to kind of hold him in reserve
like that, But I cannot imagine a more natural fit
(25:33):
as if big Look for you guys in Al Horford,
are you as stoked asign it?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah? It's like, Oh, you're gonna run a bunch of
dho's with Steph Curry and you're gonna have to make
decisions based off of the way players are. The defense
reacts off him like he's tailor made for that. He's
he's couldn't to your point, could not be a more
natural fit. The thing I like about him also is
they miss that whenever Draymond's off the floor, you know,
(26:00):
Quentin post underrated skill as a passers, a rookie, you know,
like that sort of thing, right, and they've gone through
they've had issues finding guys who can do it. I
think one of the biggest things Al would bring to
the Warriors is it's not playing Draymond and Horford together.
It's having forty eight minutes of one of them on
the floor at all times dictating things, and it's actually
(26:22):
a way to keep them both fresher. What if they're
both playing twenty four minutes a game. We know Draymond
can still play at a high level. We saw in
the Minnesota series he got worn down. Why do you
get worn down? He has to play five the whole
time with an undermanned team. Like he's one of the
(26:42):
most energetic players I've ever seen. He is still human,
you know, Like, so even there are there are you know,
limits to how much he can expend physically. And it
goes to my overarching point, which is they don't just
need to get younger, they just need to get deer.
Like one of the best ways to keep the old
(27:03):
core healthy is have a ten man rotation. Make it
so that like I said, Draymond's playing twenty four minutes
a game, Horford's playing twenty four minutes a game. STEP's
playing thirty not thirty six minutes. You know, you're gonna
have games you chase. You can't be you can't be
in a situation where you have to chase the final
thirty five games of the year because you had no
(27:25):
depth in your twenty five and twenty five, you know,
fifty games in the season, which was the case with
the Warriors this year when they got Jimmy Butler. They're
actually one game below five hundred. They were twenty five
and twenty six, they had to go balls to the
wall just to qualify for the playoffs, and it's it
should be no surprise that Draymond looked dead at the end.
Steph pulled a hammy, which was an exhaustion injury from
(27:46):
what he had to do, and you know, Jimmy's was
just an unlucky contact thing. But like all of that's
a subject. All that's a factor of them playing what
was essentially a seven or eight man rotation for the
final two months.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, I think Horford is everything you guys have been
looking for over the last several seasons as a big,
like you mentioned, like a big that you can continue
to run essentially the same style of read and react
offense that you run when Draymond's on the floor, but
that also gives you a bigger look when you want to.
I'm excited specifically about like some matchup specific situations where Horford, Draymond,
(28:23):
and Jimmy are all on the floor together to close
games just because of their collective defensive IQ. There's a
lot of switchability there al. Horford still even as an
old guy, is one of the better switching bigs that
you'll have in the league, just because he's so good
at anticipating and taking the right angle to meet guys
at spots, and so there's a lot of like it's
a lot of like the upside that you had with
(28:44):
Quinton Post, but without some of the defensive limitations that
came from him. Just in terms of like Quinton was
like a straight up old fashioned drop big and he
just didn't have much in the way of athleticism around
the rim. Al doesn't bring the athleticism, but he brings
the IQ and the switch ability, which gives you some
viability there. You mentioned the depth. This is the key thing.
(29:04):
Because I was talking about this with the Clippers. Everyone's like, Oh,
the Clippers are so old. It doesn't matter when you
have that many guys. Like, when you have that many
dudes who can play, you can keep everybody's minutes at
a point where it's manageable. And that's like I would
argue that it's it actually has more to do with
the amount of wear and tear you're putting on your
players each game than the number of games they play,
(29:28):
or even sometimes the schedule, like a back to back
is nothing. If they're playing twenty minutes each night, and
it's not you know, if you could, if you could
play al twenty four minutes in one of the games
and eighteen in another, it's not a rough back to back.
It's a rough back to back when you're in the
tail end of the season and you got to push
everybody thirty six thirty seven minutes because you're desperate for
(29:48):
a gamer here or there in the standings and in general.
This is kind of how I feel about spending assets
to try to improve this team. In the Western Conference,
three or four wins could be the difference between the
four we're seed in a play in birth. A specific
player could be the difference between you losing to Denver
and you beating Denver. I mean, Cam Johnson for Denver
(30:09):
could be the difference between them losing to Oklahoma City
and beating Oklahoma City. These are pretty tight margins between
these teams, and that's why I've been kind of like
geared up on some sort of upgrade here. So I'm
astoked about Horford as you are. We don't need to
talk about Melton too much because I think we saw
him last year's natural fit. It's just a question of
whether or not his knee can hold up. But what
(30:30):
archetype of player if you like. Obviously we talked about
keyon Ellis, he's a three and D guy. I think
every team could benefit from one of those. But if
there was a higher level player that you could target
at some point this season, what do you view as
the specific need, the specific archetype of player that the
Warriors need to go into that top tier of contenders
with the teams at the top of the West.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I think it's ke else no, But beyond him, uh No,
I think it's they need so Melton is another player
who is a great point of attack defender, can hit shots,
can handle create a little bit. I still think they
need one more of those. And then I actually really
love a guard rotation of Steph Pajemski with less responsibility
(31:13):
in that in that potential role, because now you've added
Melton who will likely play less minutes off of a
knee injury, and another guy in that rotation spot there.
The other one is the obvious one, which is a
front court player, and they don't need to be a center.
But I'm looking at someone six eight to six' ten
who can hit some open. Shots the Way i'm looking
(31:35):
at it is if you Get, horford you Have Draymon
horford And Quinton post And Trey Jackson. Davis, Now Quinton
post And Trey Jackson davis are fine for backups in
the regular. Season What i'd really like is one more
GUY i can put next To horford and Bring draymond
(31:56):
off the bench, potentially or SOMEONE i could play next
To draymond if they want to go a little more
small and. Switchy, honestly it's what they were Hoping kuminga could,
be but it just hasn't happened for whatever. Reason there's
blame to go around for all parties, There so that
would be the Type i'd be looking, at and the
PLAYER i would be looking at to help get. It
(32:17):
there Is Moses moody and whatever they get in return For,
kuminga which is why SNEAKILY i could see the team
bringing him back just so that they could trade him
In january for salary, purposes no matter how awkward the
whole thing would, be no matter how much lying we're
going to hear during training camp about how happy they
are with each.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Other in, theory he could potentially have more options to
choose from in terms of versions at that, point just
because the landscape of the league ships and you had
a team a different match a different type of salary
matching type of.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Situation it's been like reported multiple times that the you,
know three, years maybe a player opt out after the second,
year so it's a short term, deal but it's you,
know it's not a one year, deal right in the
twenty to twenty five. RANGE i can actually see that
being a very attractive trade chip at the deadline because
(33:08):
you'd be acquiring a twenty two year old who's on
a very reasonable, number who you control for a couple
of years where you can really figure, out is this
one of my like core three pieces going? Forward you,
know because he is so young he is he is
still just twenty two this. Year he's gonna be twenty
three this this help coming. Season, SORRY i could see
something like that. HAPPENING i JUST i don't want to
(33:29):
go down that path because it just it feels like
one of those things where there's a lot of risk
of it blowing up and being an even bigger hindrance
the other. Way by the, way with that, said, yeah
like the obvious one is get me an athletic wing
who can play next To draymond Or horford in the four,
spot who can hit, shots who can. Defend that would
(33:52):
be the type of PLAYER i would be most interested.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
In, yeah you, KNOW i was talking about this with
the id A suns fan straight up asking mail by
question like should we Get? Kaminga and like WHAT i
said was like if you can get him at twenty
to twenty five a, Year hell, Yeah LIKE i do
think That kaminga has value at a number that is
below thirty and where he has a. Runway it's specifically
(34:18):
the combination of what he's asking for and what The
warriors need from him that makes that situation. Untenable if
you could be flexible in that, regard it makes some.
Sense and similarly to The, Warriors like to your, point
if he's on let's say he's at two years fifty,
million he's still a tradable asset at that. Point if
he's at two years sixty five, million that's where it's
(34:40):
like or a longer term, deal it's.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Like something like. That then you're attaching a pick to
get off of. Him, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Exactly do you think The warriors have enough? Offense this
has been something That i've been keyed in on for
a little. While, uh even after The jimmy. Trade just
like there's this pretty clear life to where like where
When Brandon pajemski shoots the ball really, well When Buddy
heel plays super, well you guys are borderline. Unbeatable do
you have any do you have a desire to upgrade
(35:11):
in terms of offensive talent just a realistic approach to what's,
available or do you actually think The warriors don't need.
That they need more athleticism and versatility and role players.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Well, being as they only have nine players under, roster
they need. Everything BUT i guess because we've debated this
heavily on our, show and there's been a strong push
to just add eighty two game. Players you, know a bucket,
getter who's going to just lighten the load On Steph
curry in the regular, season and how much it can
(35:41):
help this team just have a little more offensive, firepower
even if it's flawed offensive, firepower, RIGHT i, agree that
would be, Useful but if it's one or the, Other
i'm still going to lean into trying to get those
defensive first closing playoff players because the WAY i look
at it, is end of the, day if this team
(36:04):
makes the, playoffs it's gonna be Basically steph carry us
on offense and we're gonna. Defend AND i just don't
see a world in which them adding an offensive player
who's a bad defender actually makes them a better playoff.
TEAM i think it leads them to being more in
(36:24):
the middle than. Anything SO i know that's kind of
a cop out, answer but it's kind of like what
you saw with The. Thunder as far As i'm concerned
The thunder's offense at, TIME i was, like, man they
got nothing other Than, shay you, know that sort of.
Thing But i'd rather put a team of guys who
can grind and will defend to like they just they're
(36:45):
hard to score, on and you Trust steph And jimmy
will eventually figure it out on. Offense then try to
go the other way and add A Malik monk type, where,
man you, know you know what it's like watching a
team In january when those guys are, Exhausting, like, man
it'd be really nice to have some Like Malik monk
coming off the bench with a little juice just to
(37:07):
provide a little. Punch but if it comes at the
expense of like that, point of attack defender or that versatile.
WING i don't think it's worth. It so that's kind
of Where i'm at with. It would it's a nice to.
HAVE i view it still as a number two priority
in terms of need to.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Have, YEAH i LEAN i lean slightly more towards it
being something that they need in order to get into
that next. TIER i think part of it is my
overarching basketball, Philosophy like even With buddy Heel LIKE i
Thought Buddy hehil played the best defense of his career last,
season even though it was, flawed even though it wasn't,
perfect there were moments Where buddy was really competing and
(37:42):
doing some good work on that end of the. FLOOR
i like to. SAY i also just have generally looked
at The warriors offense as kind of a counterbalancing effect
where The steph And clay did this for years to
teams where it was it was the mutual impact of
both of them and what they brought on opposite ends
of the floor running in and out of action that
(38:03):
made them so difficult to. Guard AND i look at
teams Like denver who scaled up on, defense using intelligence
and switching up coverages and having just kind of HIGH iq,
defenders not necessarily the most athletic, defenders and them doing
as good a job Against Oklahoma city as anybody else
did in last year's playoff run despite being one of
(38:24):
the worst defenses in the league down the stretch of the.
Season i'm indexing slowly each progressive season more towards, offense
And i'm, Wondering i'm wondering how much of that will
stick for me in the coming, Years but, YEAH i.
DO i would love to see a guy next To
steph who could reliably get to twenty points on any given. Night,
(38:45):
now Maybe Jimmy in, theory it's and that's the thing,
is Like i'm hoping to get just a little bit
more offensive juice out Of jimmy this year. TOO i
think that could go a long way as.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well so that's kind of Why i'm, like adding those
two players who can, shoot like you, know the pie
in the sky would be like a you, Know Derek
white the shooting guard spot and Like Cam johnson at
the power forward. Spot like obviously neither of those are
gonna Happen camp specifically because he just went To, denver but,
(39:20):
like you, know adding those those players who can shoot the.
BALL i think will also Juice jimmy's offense a little.
Bit he scored the ball incredibly well up until he
had the glute injury that happened Against. HOUSTON i mean
he put what thirty seven in the playing game had
something like HE i think he. WORKS i think him
(39:41):
And steph. WORK i think they honestly need more shooting
and defensive versatility than necessarily shot.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
CREATION i think the shooting is the obvious, one regardless
of whether or not it comes in the form of
a high level offensive player or a three AND d.
Player they've got to have reliable shootings surround those. GUYS
i think that goes without saying, that for the, record
is Why i'm excited About. Horford, like if you imagine
a scenario where let's say you get a key On
ellis and you get An Al, horford that would be
(40:08):
such an interesting look to have that type of group
out on the floor where legitimately the guys who are
gonna be flowing in and out of action and popping
are gonna be guys who are gonna be knocking down.
Shots which is that like key? Difference All, Right i'm
gonna put you on the spot before we get out of,
here let's say The, Warriors let's just say they Retain
kaminga on a one, year twenty million dollars, deal or
(40:31):
they sign and trade him for just, filler Not Keon,
ellis but just, filler and they Sign horford and they
signed The Anthony, melton handful of other veteran minimum, contracts
but nothing like super needle. Moving let's say they bring
Back Gary payton something something along those. Lines where would
you rank them in The west without any additional moves
over the top of that.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Six mostly because in your car, CONSTRUCTED i think they're
gonna put too much On steph And jimmy's shoulders and
there's just gonna be like they're gonna be better than
the sixth. SEED i think that's just where they're gonna,
end Because jimmy will miss twenty, Games steph will miss twenty,
(41:15):
games and there'll be one of those teams, where oh
they're you, know if you look at, this they're actually
twenty twenty and five over the last twenty, five but
the overall record is forty seven. Wins that type of,
Thing and to your, POINT i honestly think it's one
of those things where if they Turn kuminga into the
right type of energy piece and make maybe get a
(41:35):
little internal, improvement plus A melton and A, horford they
might win fifty three games and be the second or third.
Seed you, Know LIKE i actually really think the margins
on that basis really do matter that much in determining
where they end up. Finishing and as you as you
said earlier and as we've, seen like The west has
been so tight the last five, years it's, like literally
(41:57):
but the dinner between forty five and fifty wins is
an ears between like the eight and the three seed
most of these.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Years, Playing, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Exactly a lot of it's down a lot of it's
down to health and your ability to to just have
a deep roster all.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Year, YEAH i look at that, tier and you can
make cases for and against all of. Them LIKE i,
mean you could Say minnesota lost and Kill Alexander walker
and they're a little bit older in their front, court
And conley's, older and Go bear's, older and you know
they're just not going to be as. Good but then
you could also look at me and go, like, yeah
but what If Anthony edwards like watched Shake yell Just
alexander kick his ass and spends all summer working on
(42:34):
stuff that's short to short to mid range scoring and
becomes a dramatically better player and The wolves are, Better Right,
Lakers what happens with so many different guys they have
that are older Age? Clippers what happens with so many
guys that are older age The? Warriors do they successfully
Turn kaminga and a couple of their other assets into more?
Firepower there's all of this, different you, know up and
(42:54):
down potential for every single one of these. Teams that's
why it's tough to put them in a, list and
it's easier just to put them in. Tears But, sam
this has been. AMAZING i sincerely appreciate you taking time
out of your busy day to come hang out with
us and talk Some. Warriors why don't you tell everybody
where they can find your?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Stuff, yeah pretty. Simple just check out the Light years
pod wherever you listen to, Pods, Apple, spotify, YouTube doesn't,
matter it'll be published. There we go pretty. Regularly we
live after every game in the off, season two to
three times a, week and whenever the kuminga thing, HAPPENS
i promise a breaking.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Pod The sam And andy And tommy as well do
amazing work With Light. Years make sure you guys go
over there and support. Them that's all we have for, today,
guys is. Always we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting
us on supporting the. Show we'll be back with our
mailbag On. FRIDAY i will see you guys then
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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