Colin Cowherd Podcast - Pay Terry, Trade Parsons, Expectations For JJ McCarthy? Antonio Gates HoF Career, Why Undrafted Players Become Stars

Colin’s joined by John Middlekauff, host of “3 and Out” to talk all things NFL!

They start with sharing their favorite summer vacation spots (3:30) before pivoting to the Vikings where Colin predicts J.J. McCarthy’s success might mirror Brock Purdy’s due to the high level of talent and coaching surrounding him (7:30). They highlight McCarthy having a similar situation at Michigan and why the best NFL quarterbacks tend to come from less prestigious programs (12:00).

They compare the AFC and NFC and argue that the top of the AFC is better, but the NFC is the deeper conference (15:45) and preview what the expectations should be for the Chicago Bears (17:15). Colin argues that the Commanders should pay Terry McLaurin (32:00), the Cowboys should trade Micah Parsons rather than pay him (39:00).

They predict major turmoil between the Bengals and Joe Burrow if they miss the playoffs after yet another ugly offseason contract squabble (48:00). They look back on the Hall of Fame career of Antonio Gates after his induction into Canton (58:00) and discuss why the NFL is the only league where late round and undrafted players regularly become stars (1:02:00).

Finally, Colin explains his passion for his newfound hobby… golf (1:18:00)!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
I am literally just off a plane. Can I have
my only complain of Chicago so far? So you're gonna
be joining me this weekend for the live tour stop
in Chicago. That oh hair. First of all, Hair is
about an hour from downtown. It could be worse, a
little better, a little worse, depending on the traffic. But

(00:38):
when you land in Chicago and I don't know where
it is, like la it always felt lax. It was
about ten minutes. Your taxi can be twenty five minutes.
Today it was twenty eight once we landed, twenty eight
minutes to get.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
To the gate.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
It's just such a damn big airport.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
United is almost always better than American. It doesn't have
any presents here. A little Jet Blue maybe, but so
that's why I'm scrambling to get on the air.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Thank god.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
I sat and read for two hours on my flight.
By the way, when you live in Phoenix, when you
live in Arizona, so in Chicago, I head to Rhode
Island and take some time off. Where do you go
in the summer?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
We usually just go. I mean I've been here now
three years for the most part. Because her family is
back in Sacramento, Bay area, Tahoe. You know, we go
back there, so mainly to Tahoe, but it's to see
our parents, our moms, our brothers. Her brother lives in Reno,
just had a baby. My brother has a couple of
young kids, he's younger than me, lives in the Sacramento area.

(01:44):
So we usually go back to California, which is an
easy The good thing with Phoenix, you know, Phoenix to Vegas, Phoenix, La,
Phoenix to the Sacramento Bay area. These are all very
easy flights. So for the most part, I haven't ventured,
you know, your way up until I went to the
Texas Oklahoma game last year and I got married in Nashville.
I guess so. But again I would say this for Phoenix.

(02:05):
The airport's kind of poorly built, but it is relatively efficient.
You know, I lived at Philly for a couple of years.
That could be a shit show. San Francisco can be
just outrageous, obviously, Lax. You know, it just depends. And
like you said about Chicago and Philly was like this.
A lot of the East Coast areas when they would
get these storms, especially in the winter, can just derail

(02:27):
the Phoenix I mean, most people are flying in. I
would say, obviously we get people flying in from the
Midwest or the Northeast, but it's a lot of West
coast travel.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah. Now, I'll listen for anybody that's not been to
Lake Tahoe, I highly recommend it in the summer. It
is an unbelievable gem in North America. It reminds me
a little bit of bamf up in Canada, Calgary, where
it's just it just doesn't look like anything else you've
ever been to.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
So I can you go. Did you go with Kelly
James to Court of Ball a couple of years ago?

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Kelly James courtA Lane to Corner Lane?

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:01):
That that concert's crazy. He's just stun He's the absolute stuff.
Look him up, folks. So listen. I my takeaway on
all these camps because I kind of when I go
on vacation, I watch a little bit, but I you know,
I am golfing, I am cocktail and I am you know,
with the dogs and my wife and hanging out. When

(03:25):
I watch all this camp stuff, I will say, I
do I think there are grains of truth in everything.
I think you can edit it anyway you want. I
don't think it means everything. I think there's something I'm
gonna still stick with my prediction that JJ McCarthy will

(03:46):
if he does have success. It's a little bit of
a rock pretty thing. It's the coach, it's the left tackle,
it's the weapons that will put him in a place
that I think elevates him beyond what he would be
with average personnel, average co coach or bad. I don't
think brock Purty's good enough to save a bad situation.
But I think in the current situation with Trent Williams,

(04:07):
Kittle Jennings, like Shanahan McCaffrey, I think more than capable,
I tend to think McCarthy's going to fall into that.
I mean left tackle, head coach, running back, tight end.
I think I think JJ McCarthy would have to be
bad not to have some Brock pretty level success where

(04:28):
you know, he's not a physical specimen, but he can
complete passes and move the chains.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
I do think though he you know, brock Purty got
to come in toward middle of the end of the year, right,
so there was less pressure, and let's face it, when
Jimmy Garoppolo shattered his ankle, that the expectations for brock
Purty were zilch. I mean I thought their season was over, yeah,
and then the kids just started rattling off games. You know.
For JJ McCarthy, a little like Trey Lance when the

(04:53):
forty nine ers drafted him, kind of like Caleb, but
we didn't really believe in Eberflus. It's pretty rare that
a guy was drafted pretty high starts on a team
that what do you think is a fair expectations anything
less than the NFC Championship game, with their roster, their
coaching staff, it's really really high. You know, it's not
like nine to eight and some growing pains. You know,

(05:15):
justin Jefferson had some comments within the last week. You
can just tell it's like our expectations here high and
it's like this is a work in progress. Now. The
good thing is you can get better, right He might
not be same with Caleb, same with a lot of
these guys. What they look like in September, they might
look a lot better in November. But it can go
the other way too. It can break you. So if

(05:35):
you have a couple of tough games, how do you
handle that adversity? That's that's really what all the NFL
is right, is handling the tough times to get to
the better times.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
I was reading somebody in the Athletic rank the coaching staffs,
and I didn't disagree. He had Minnesota as the best
coaching staff in the league. I think he had San
Francisco with Kyle and solid two.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Are you talking the whole staff?

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, I mean basically head coach, top two coordinators. He
had Minnesota number one. And I think, and I've said
this about Brock Purty. I mean literally he got the
keys to a Mercedes. You get Shanahan, McCaffrey, Trent Williams
at the time, Debo I U Kittle. I mean that's
hard to mess up. I mean, if you're just capable,
if you're quick above the shoulders, which I think JJ

(06:16):
McCarthy and Brock Pertty are. I think they're smart guys.
The downside to it is it's not it's a hard
eval It's hard to evaluate somebody when they're I mean
it would be like putting somebody with Charles Barkley, Shack
and Ernie Johnson. It's hard to really say what. Kenny

(06:38):
Smith is certainly capable, but his role on that show
is to kind of poke the bear and just kind
of have fun and be the straight man, and so
it is hard to make it. It's an easy evaluation
on Jaden Daniels last year. Oh shit, he's carrying a
bad oldline, a defensive coach, a one weapon offense. Wow.

(07:00):
It's like Andrew luck easy or Herbert's rookie year. Wow,
this is impressive. I think JJ's gonna be a hard
evaluation because how much of the success is based on
I mean, let's be honest. Last year, in Week fourteen,
Sam Darnald was first or second in MVP. He was
a bust going to Minnesota. So like, like now, I

(07:24):
don't even know quite what to make of Donald. What
is Donald?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, I'm pretty high, I think Donald. I think their
team's gonna be pretty good, you know, giving health, the
talent in Seattle, I would expect, you know, pretty high
things for Sam. Maybe not throw thirty five touchdowns, but
to just be a solid player in the NFL moving forward,
you know, be a guy that's on the good side
of the top fifteen of the quarterbacks, not you know,
somewhere between twenty two and thirty two, like most people

(07:50):
thought he just sucked. But one thing, going back to Donald.
He said the change his career was not just Kyle
believing him, but watching Rock pretty operate. And the thing
that's separated to brock Purty immediately was not his height,
was not his arm strength. It was all the intangible
stuff which he had built for four years at let's
face it, when he got there kind of an average

(08:11):
football program that him and Matt Campbell transitioned into a
high level football program where he was getting offered by
USC And the big reason was because of brock Purty,
you know. I mean, let's face it, Mel Tucker got
some big jobs because you know, got a huge extension
because of Kenneth Walker. Sometimes one or two individuals at
not the top tier programs can change the course of

(08:33):
your career. So brock Purdy, his intangibles are a huge
separating factor for why you know, all the guys with
the forty nine ers, coaches and players believe in them,
you know, JJ, He's just gonna have to prove it,
you know, and it's gonna have to be part of
his repertoire. Are you getting there at five in the morning,
Are you grinding Monday through Saturday? Because that's all these quarterbacks,

(08:54):
that's all they talk about. It's not just the grind on.
Tom Brady's been talking about Mondays and Tuesdays for fifteen years.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, I mean it's I think one of the things
that Brock Purdy had a real live and we're talking
here JJ McCarthy brock Purty. The comp is, you know,
they're a little smaller than you'd like, they don't have
huge arms. There were questions about both one's first round
pick and I think a bit overdrafted. One's a seventh
round pick, clearly underdrafted. But the one thing that brock

(09:25):
Purty had on JJ McCarthy, Brock had to carry pretty
average players. Now he had Breese Hall, but by and
large it was Iowa State guys, whereas JJ McCarthy was
carried by the best online in football, a loaded roster.
And I've always said this, John, I've been saying. I
wrote about this in my first book. You would think
it's very linear. You know, USC should have twenty five

(09:47):
great NFL quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. They
have one, Carson Palmer. Is that you would think LSU
has fifteen or Bama's got twelve and Ohio State has fourteen.
They don't because It's an advantage in college to go
to col like Goff and Aaron Rodgers, or go to
NC State like Russell Wilson did for three years of

(10:09):
Philip Rivers because you don't throw to five star receivers
and you're always hurried like Matt Ryan or Big Band
Big Ben at Ohio State would have sat in that
pocket for days. Miami of Ohio. He had to be
the playmaker. So the advantage Brock Purtty has is, dude,
I'm carrying. I'm carrying mostly average dudes, right like when
you face Oklahoma. Oklahoma the twenty two starters has nineteen

(10:34):
guys would start on Iowa State's roster. And so one
of the things about JJ McCarthy, my biggest question, he's
never once had to carry a football team.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
I think in a perfect world, JJ McCarthy honestly his
comp also ironically with forty nine ers a little Jimmy Garoppolo,
just in terms of like playing in the sense of
not carrying the team. His physical skills pretty solid. JJ's
a better athlete, But look at Jimmy, who was drafted
in the second round, got to sit learn, was not
thrust into anything obviously benefited from Tom Brady. You know,

(11:09):
JG's getting thrown into this thing. Imagine if Jimmy Garoppolo
had just been thrown on the Patriots like year two,
you're his career. I mean, who knows, maybe it would
have gone well, but it could have gone. It was
an intense environment, not quite that because they had been
winning championships and obviously Kirk Cousins is not and Sam
Donald are not Tom Brady, but there is an intensity

(11:30):
with everyone in football going, yeah, it's one of the
best rosters in the league, if not the best. Oh yeah,
and if you do the coordinator combo, which the head
coach and Brian Flores, that's as good as it gets.
So we just saw him last year. You know, they
had all those injuries toward the end of the season,
and Sam you know, didn't play great either, but that
O line injuries with Sam Donald, like he just kind
of crumbled at the end. But at least they were

(11:52):
in the fight. I mean, they were going into the
last game with four and think of all of the
big plays, I mean a huge part. I remember watching
Sam Donald's entered uy press conference and one of the
questions they asked Mike McDonald was how big of an
evaluation process was that game that he played against you
and threw that touchdown to basically knock you out of
the playoffs. He's obviously I had a front row seat,

(12:13):
and I'm the defense of Guru. I mean, he didn't
exactly say this, but he's the defense is my baby,
and he's eating me alive. So how could it not
play a part? Now, you gotta be careful with that.
It was the aggregate body of work over the course
of the season. But I Sam loronand through thirty five
touchdowns last year, I know, like Matt Stafford through twenty,
So that's there's just a lot of pressure on JJ.

(12:37):
It's gonna be hard to just have a season where
you throw twenty touchdowns, especially as a young player. You're
probably gonna throw some picks and have a record that's competing.
I mean, it's hard to make the playoffs. The NFC
might not have beside the Eagles, maybe not the powerhouses
of like the Bills the way you've beens and the Chiefs,
but I think they go ten deep of teams that

(12:57):
are just gonna be tough. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
No, there was a two year win and I've used
the Cowboys as an example, there was about a three
year window when the AFC hit on all these good
quarterbacks Burrow Lamar, Josh Herbert. It's about a three year
window the AFC was noticeably better than the NFC, and
now it's not. In fact, I think the AFC is

(13:20):
better at the top. I think the NFC's deeper. I
think there's just a lot. I mean, I think Tampa's
really good. I think the Rams, Seattle, the Niners. You
could argue everybody if the Bears hit is good. In
the NFC, North Philadelphia and Washington are excellent. So yeah,
I mean it's there's you start looking at Minnesota schedules,

(13:41):
there's not a lot of there's not a lot of layups.
You know, there's not a lot of part threes.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
It is.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
It's pretty rough. So I'm okay, And it's interesting because
I'm really I like watching young quarterbacks. I like there's
a lot in the NFL. I know, and you and
I know, like we know who the good coaches are.
We know Buffalo is going to be good. In Baltimore
and Kansas City, we just know that. We also know, like,
for instance, even the things we don't know, we're pretty

(14:07):
sure of Rabel and New England are to be massively improved.
Like we kind of feel that Sean Payton's got it
rolling in Denver, Chargers will probably take another step up.
Here's another team. The Raiders should be noticeably better just
on staffing and quarterback play. But the two teams that
we don't know a lot about and our Minnesota we

(14:29):
don't know McCarthy and Chicago, and Chicago could go either way.
So as I watched all these clips this weekend in
the last four or five days, my take is, whatever,
it's confirmation bias. I want Chicago to work. I live here,
I know Caleb. I'd love to see the Bears to

(14:50):
finally have a good offense. So I watched the clips
and I think, oh, he's dynamic. But if you're not
a Caleb Williams fan, you can see a lot of
clips and go this is not gonna work. Where are
you on what you've seen so far.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
I don't even think it's just clips. I think it
goes back to the offseason when Ben Johnson's like, your
body language sucks, the way you carry yourself and get
off the ground is not good enough. And those are
things that young coaches, you know, first time coordinators that
become a head coach, especially offensive guys that can tend
to be a little more cerebral, can be a little
easier on guys. And I do have to wonder if

(15:24):
the last couple of years watching Dan Campbell again, I've
watched a lot of Ben Johnson's press conferences the last
couple weeks. He doesn't come. He's not like he's trying
to be Dan Campbell in terms of like in front
of the mic, some super tough guy, but clearly the
expectations and how hardy he's canceled some you know, they've
gone out and he sent them back Like I was like, damn,
this guy is not messing around. And it does feel

(15:44):
centered around the quarterback. That again, based on a clip
of watching him throw the ball into a net and
not even come close, You're like, not great. Here's what
we know though, historically, if you give a draft of
four quarterbacks and a couple of him become high end guys,
we already know Jayden Daniels, even if he takes a
little bit of a step back from the highest. C J.

(16:06):
Stroud's really good player still, right, c J Ada down year,
Everyone would buy C. J. Stroud stock moving forward, no different.
Jayde Daniel's a hit bo Nicks. I just don't see
how Denver is not gonna be consistent for a while
and bow Knicks is gonna be good. So we got
two of the six.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Well and and Drake May with a real coach and
three hundred million in free agency. I mean, there weren't
times last year and that was a bad staff. There
were times I watched Drake Man I thought, oh, I
see the Herbert comp.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
And you go, worst case scenario you're gonna get with
Vrabel the way he operates, Look what he did with
Tanny Hill. He can just create an environment. Maybe Drake
May can become a bigger, more athletic like Jimmy Garoppolo type.
He's gonna be okay, you know, even if he doesn't
become Josh Allen or Herbi, he's gonna be solid. So
we're now we're done a fifty percent, So we got
the other three Pennix. I'm just I think Atlanta is

(16:57):
kind of a weird place. Yeah, and I just, you know,
the owner think, I just I'm kind of out. The
cousins think still around even though he's a high character guy.
It's just I just don't buy into that organization. JJ
major question mark Caleb to me is still the question
mark with Ben Johnson. But my theory is this, you've

(17:17):
talked a lot about this, that the clock on these guys.
This isn't nineteen ninety seven where most of these owners
don't have big cash. They will pivot off guys in
a moment's notice. I was in the car the other
day and I was flipping around and I listened to
NFL radio and how he was on. They had like
the NFL radio crew was going through and he's like

(17:38):
they were talking about the draft pick of Jalen Hurts,
and he was like, you know, we had just given
Carson Wentz a huge contract the year before. And that
was seven eight years ago, maybe not that long ago,
what twenty eighteen ish? Right, it was after they you know,
the year after they won the Super Bowl. Think how
much more money's getting distributed now, Well, they just give
out four hundred and fifty million dollars, Well, what's that

(17:58):
number going to be in three or four years? Six
hundred million dollars? These teams are not worried about with
an on a guy. I mean It's not an ideal
situation to be in. But if Caleb, let's just say
this year that it goes, you know, I think Ben
Johnson knows what he's doing. But they win eight games.
It is not gonna Ben Johnson's fault. Like he's not
going anywhere and all of a sudden it would be
an offseason. Do they go sign whoever the equivalent is

(18:19):
of that fifteen to twenty million dollar bridge quarterback and
have an open competition. There is pressure on him this
year to me to play well, and playing well isn't
just throwing up stats. You better be winning. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Two things to think about too. Detroit looked awful in
the Hall of Fame game. They looked unorganized. So when
Detroit pulls back this year and the Hall of Fame
game aside, we don't.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Know, I mean it's their threes, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, but they just look disorganized. Let's say that Detroit
looks like they miss Ben Johnson. That will empower Ben Johnson.
So if Caleb struggles and Detroit pulls back, people will
say it's not Ben Johnson, Like, look at it. I mean,
Detroit's this powerhouse. Detroit's been the most discussed offense in
the league has how creative they were. If Detroit pulls back,

(19:10):
we think they will. The division's better, and we don't
think Ben Johnson's fill ins Ben Johnson. Then all of
a sudden, it empowers Ben Moore. And then if Caleb struggles,
it just and there's already questions. And also, Caleb is
talented enough that even if he didn't work with Ben,
it wouldn't be a disaster. I doubt very seriously, he'd

(19:31):
make plays and you couldn't. And my take is over
the next two years, you could move him and get
a good pick. Like Caleb's the kind of guy that
he'll have enough tape, Like you can look at Bryce
Young and just say he's too small, he's not gonna last.
It doesn't Caleb's thick, big r moves. I mean, Carson

(19:53):
Wentz kept getting opportunities like Caleb is the kind of
guy that Chicago could move off and if the it
didn't go well, Ben's not taking the heat, and you
could get something for Caleb. I mean, Jesus, especially with
guys like Donald and Baker Mayfield and Gino Smith being reborn.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, and we're a long way away from that. I'm
not even saying either, like this thing is a disaster,
but like to me, they can't go seven or eight wins.
You know, Dennis Allen's a good defensive coordinator. Their defense
is going to be solid, and they're going to be
in closer games. I mean last year, as the thing
fell apart, it fell like every game was twenty to
thirty to nothing. At halftime it was a joke, and

(20:34):
then the second half was to me, I couldn't even
judge any of his throats because they were completely meaningless.
I'm with you. His physical he can move, he's got
a big arm. He didn't yeah, play make but to
be a good quarterback. And this is the JJ thing too.
Can you play within the confines and the construct of
the offense? So some plays one two get rid of
the ball. Why does Kyle Shanahan love brock Purty because

(20:57):
he will play in the construct of the offense. Why
does Sean Payton loved bow Nicks because he will do
what he tells him to. That was a Russell Wilson thing, right,
I was just before I walked in here, I was
flipping around and NFL Network. It must have been from
earlier today because it looked like the morning in a
lot of camps and they were going camp to camp
and one thing, Steve Smith Senior was like, they're a

(21:18):
Steeler camp and they're like you could tell a lot
of these guys were telling us like, god, this guy,
you know, because Aaron Rodgers can still sling it, and
they're like, the big difference of last year is like
Russell Wilson was just kind of chucking it. This guy
can sling it. And there's a difference between just chucking it,
which I would say Caleb was kind of doing. It's
a lot of quarterbacks do when when it's off kilter

(21:39):
inside an offense. Now, how hard you Caleb has arm strength?
Oh can't he play within the pocket? Why did Baker
become a really good player because the offense he started
operating in it He's got a good arm, he's on time,
he gets rid of the ball, he can move to
But like a lot of his stuff like playmaker within
the pocket, and that's I think a question mark on
Caleb because he's got that Russell Wilson an instinct to

(22:00):
like I just got to make plays. It's like you
got to stay in there. That's what Ben Johnson built
a powerhouse offense really by sitting in the pocket and
getting rid of the ball again read.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Of the ball cast No. And this is something to note.
I think we talked about this last time. There are
not that many head coaches who are gifted play designers
and play callers. Andy Reid is, Sean Payton is, Shanahan is.
But most head coaches. Jimmy Johnson's a legendary CEO. I

(22:29):
mean that's what Jimmy was. Pete Carroll is as a CEO.
Mike Tomlin's more of a CEO. A lot of the
great coaches are brothers. Are Bill Parcells was? And then
you get the occasional the guy could literally go on
the whiteboard. Kevin O'Connell, you know, is a whiteboard guy. Well,
Ben Johnson is. And those guys all have one thing

(22:51):
in common. They want the quarterback to run their play right.
Tomlin's not. Tomlin's gonna let you do what you want
to do.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
You know.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Defensive coaches don't know the lingo literally, but most of
these guys who can call plays like Peyton, they lose
their shit if you don't follow directions.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Well, it's not an apples to apples comparison because Russell
was an older guy on a huge contract and Caleb
is the number one pick on a rookie contract. But
I do think there are some parallels. You run my
offense that I know works, or this is not gonna work. Right.
There are two lanes. You run my offense and I
feel good about your running my offense, or you will
be gone. So I think those are the only too.

(23:33):
There's no like, uh, he'll morph some play like nah.
The offense with Ben Johnson and Seawan's you know, as
a longer track record like his offense, he ain't pivoting.
Maybe Ben would try some different stuff because there would
be some pressure to make this number one overall pick work.
But the way he's talking, the way he's operating, it
kind of feels like I got a pretty good idea

(23:54):
what I'm doing on offense, and this is the way
we're doing it.

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Speaker 1 (25:23):
I agree, so you and I both agree on this
that the Terry McLaurin situation in Washington is troubling. So
I liked the Deebo acquisition because he's a chess piece
and Cliff Kingsbury would be. You know, a play designer
is good with chess pieces. But Deebo's not as good consistently,

(25:45):
or as healthy consistently, or as productive consistently as Terry McLaurin.
And Terry's been the guy that's been I mean, because
of where he was drafted. Terry hasn't gotten the huge
payday yet. In fact, you could argue before amor on
Saint Rounds contract that mclauch an omor on say Brown
with the most un underpaid weapons in the league. So
I actually get Terry McLaurin saying guys like I have

(26:09):
outperformed my contract fourfold. Deebo is a guy that's not
going to be a center piece, more of a chess piece.
Struggles to stay healthy. No, no, no, no this, I'm not
doing any team favors on this. I kind of side
with Terry McLaurin here.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
You Belichick talked about this for a long time, the
locker room dynamics and money. I mean, you're dealing with
young people who value themselves based on their contract relative
to their peers. You know, it's hard with NFL contracts
because it's convoluted because a signing bonus is and pro
rated money. But basically they make a very similar amount
of actual cash going into their bank account week one

(26:50):
through seventeen this year, deebo and Terry McLaurin. Last time
I checked. Terry McLaurin had thirteen touchdowns last year and
it was a massive reason that Jayden Daniels became a star.
And if you're him, like what about all the sweat
equity when this franchise was a joke? Yeah, I was
the good guy doing the right thing. You bring in
this other guy who is the GM's guy right from
the forty nine ers, but he peaked, you know, part

(27:12):
of the reasons Kyle got rid of him. He's like
Chubby wide receiver. When do you ever hear about that?
Like couldn't stay in shape, got moodies, ask for trades before.
Now he comes and we're making similar money. These are
human beings, right, I totally understand, Like that's not really
I feel like a part of the reporting. It's not
like and Terry would come out and say I'm jealous
or angry because but you can't tell me that didn't

(27:33):
play a part. You think I'm gonna make the same
amount of money as this guy. You know we're both
in contract years. Yet this is my team, which I've
been here from day one. You just bring in this guy.
I also wonder if it showed him like what this
administration they weren't my people, So I better be pretty
careful now. They're gonna want me to lay it on
the line now. But what if I get hurt and
then I can't get a contract after this year. They

(27:54):
don't care. They'll just move on. Because wide receivers this
isn't you know, tackle or defensive ends not It's a
pretty easy position to replace. Even if Debo fails. They
could just draft a guy next year in the first
round or the second round, or hit on a guy
in the fourth round. Who knows. Maybe McCaffrey's brother becomes
a fifty catch guy. It's an easy you could argue
the easiest position now to find.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Oh. I can name off the top of my head
the tank Dells and the Puka Nakuas and the Amora
on Saint Brown's rounds four or five, Jennings and San
Francisco's I think it's seventh round guy wide receivers easily now.
Now it can be the most inflammable and bustable first
round pick because they come in. You know, it's an
ego position. They come in the first round, but by

(28:36):
and large it's I just I look at Terry McLaurin
and I tried to personalize it, and I'm thinking, he's
been a good guy, he's been productive, he was the
star he is to a large degree, is the one
thing you could build Jaden Daniels around, not the old
line of the run game or tight end. I think
you have to take care of him. And for the record,

(28:59):
I would said this ten years ago, but you can
pay two weapons now and they're not paying a running
back big money or a tight end like ten years ago.
The money was dispersed often more on the defense than offense.
In New England. It was I mean, Brady was taking
cuts in the NFL. Now the Rams like the Rams,
the Chiefs, they pay like one defensive player. So I'm

(29:23):
okay paying two weapons. I'm okay with t Higgins and
Jamar Chase, I'm okay with it.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Well, imagine if you're terry too. So you look around
and you go listen. I'm not even comparing myself to
Jamar Chase or Ceede Lamb or Justin Jefferson, but let's
go DK Metcalf the next year. Guys who early on
in his career had like the greatest start ever. Last
couple of years have been weird. The guy that gets
penalties every game, and Seattle was like, yeah, we're kind
of out of this business. He said, he asked for

(29:49):
a trade. I think they were ready to pivot yep,
and he goes, well, he just gets one hundred and
fifty million dollars and sixty seventy million dollars in guaranteed.
And he's a question mark of like, can you corral
this guy? He's like a better version of some of
these crazy guys. I am everything you would want, character
check all these boxes and I produce and I can't

(30:09):
get you. Guys won't even offer me anything, so they
want them and it's the NFL. It's cut thrown. I
totally understand it, but I think they want him just
to play this season on the fifteen million dollars and
then evaluate after that. Now, this is this isn't the
NBA right when these guys ask for trades like you
don't just he's gone, Like that's not how they're going
to operate. And I think these guys know now that

(30:30):
they'll get fined and they can't take them back. So
they show up so they don't get fifty thousand dollars
a day, but they don't really have to do anything.
But is it worth having this guy who's kind of
the heartbeat of your one of the heart beats team
got being mad in a weird mood like the expectations
for Washington. This is why it's hard. And all these
coaches say what happened last year is kind of irrelevant

(30:52):
this year because guys want to get paid. Guys got injured,
some guys are gone. Every team is they had nothing
but good vibes last year. Now this year it's like,
uh yeah no.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
And the other thing is this is not the NBA,
where it's hard to name a player whose career was
ended because of an injury. It's the same in baseball
outside of pitchers and arms. I mean, baseball careers can
last forever. In football, it's just one shot to the knee.
You're not the same wide receiver. So like I get
the psychology of mclaurin's, Like, bro, I'm taking I take

(31:23):
hits at practice. Like we can all name ten pro
football careers that have been ended early because of injuries.
It doesn't happen in basketball and baseball or hockey as much.
So I get mclaurin's. There's a certain insecurity about football players.
I get I want to get paid.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Totally, And I think they see it at training camp
and we're numb to it as fans and coaches and
gms don't care. But you see guys every single day.
So and so shattered his legs, so and so ripped
his achilles a lot of times. It's like the seventy
fifth man, So no one cares. Those players are standing
there right in that drill and see the cart come out,
and they knew that guy help be their buddy. They
might have been eating lunch with them who's on the

(32:02):
practice squad, they've been hanging out with them for a
couple of years. They see that cart Leavin with his helmet,
they go his career could be over. And then a
couple days later he's waved injured. And so for every
time that we see well, because I always say this,
most good players see the majority of their contract, like
Russell Wilson is kind of an outline if you look
at the landscape of the league, all the top players.

(32:24):
Because we haven't had catastrophic injury to a lot of
the top players in recent years, they're seeing all the
guaranteed money and the non guaranteed money of their contract.
But it's just I wouldn't take that risk if I
were any of these guys either, because all it takes
is one guy fall in India and your career is done.
Or you're just never the same and all of a
sudden you go from a twenty million dollar player to

(32:45):
a veteran minimum guy.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
So I don't feel the same with Micah Parsons, who
has a year left on the contract. He's been noisier,
he's been less consistent. I think Terry McLaurin is there's
an argument the most underpaid player in the league via
VCV production. Michah Parsons is a very good player. I
talked about this a year ago. I was team trade

(33:08):
Micah Parsons. Just forget the rest of the league, forget
the rest of the NFC. To catch up to Philadelphia,
you need about four more really good players, and Micah
could have fetched you probably a first and a third
and maybe a fifth. I mean, who knows edge rushers?
I don't. I think Micah because he's on the count.
If Micah played for the Jacksonville Jaguars, I don't think

(33:30):
he would be discussed as often as he is. I
think he's really really good. He's not Miles Garrett. I
don't think he's Max Crosby. He's probably better than Hendrickson
against the run. He's a very very good player. No
showed in playoff games. I've seen a man handled gobbled
up a few times. I like him a lot, but
I would have moved him. I would have had no problem.

(33:52):
I would have moved him for picks because I think
CD and Dak. If you're going to pay Dak that,
you got to give him a weapon. So my take
is I'm not team Micah. My take is I would
have moved him. I would not make him the highest
paid guy for the next six months in the league.
I don't. I don't think he's that Am I wrong

(34:12):
to me? He's a splash player. There are moments he's unbelievable,
but I also watch Cowboy games where he's ineffective and
disappears against really good offensive lines.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah. I mean I would take a healthy version of
Miles Garrett. I think three guys that got paid TJ.
Watt and Max Crosby over him now relative to the Cowboys.
If you are going to trade him, you have to
do it before the draft. It doesn't help you now.
It's you know, remember when the Raiders did it with
Khalil Mack. It just derailed them for a couple of years.
So it's too late. You know that that new podcast

(34:43):
the volume did you? Are you a Bravo guy? Have
you ever seen Wes in action for? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
so it's I watch a lot of it with my wife.
Obviously it's they got a big these shows. I was googling,
do like two million people watching the Summerhouse. Steven Colbert
would sell his left leg to do the numbers that

(35:03):
these shows are. I mean, they are huge, very popular shows.
But because there's a lot of drama, a lot going on,
women watch it, bring their men in. A lot of
people watch these shows and know what's going on. That
has become Jerry Jones the Dallas Cowboys, They've become a
Bravo reality television show and they got a lot of
people paying attention. And it's Jerry's comments he does. He

(35:23):
feels like he's slipping pretty hard. I feel like these
last couple of years, say he's making this situation. Listen,
these contract negotiations are not easy. We were talking. I
get the league's making a lot of money. It's still
a lot of money for players that can get it.
Just production can fall. Things change faster in football than
the other sports. Right guy falls off a cliff and

(35:43):
you're like, god, he's twenty eight. You know, all of
a sudden, Todd Gurley's out of the league. Things happen
weird in football. So I always understand for the front
office view is like should we do this? Like these
are tough conversations unless you're like Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen.
But Jerry makes this way worse because he think about
all these other negotiations. I gave the Browns a lot

(36:03):
of credit. Remember Miles Garrett came to the Super Bowls
like I want out trade me. And then jim He's
like Clutch was like, I want a meeting with Jimmy HASLM.
Jimmy's like, I'm not only am I not meeting by
talk to my GM. A couple days later he signed
and it's just over TJ. Watson, I need more money.
A month later he's got paid the new administration spy
Tech and Pete Carroll. You're like, God, they're gonna like

(36:24):
Max Crosby, even though I think probably time to reset
trade them Boom. They just pay him nothing. This is
just it. This is the Cowboys man. They can't and
people are like Jerry loves himself in the headlines. I
think we're past that point. The Cowboys are always in
the headlines, like there was Dallas Cowboys Jerry. I think
Jerry's literally kind of just slipping.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
It's getting to be it feels like the old Al
Davis Raiders, where a lot of his like stories are weird,
like he'll start rambling and there was always a point
to him. But over the last couple of years he'll
go off into these ten and stories and I'm like, bro,
I don't know where you're going, but this fishing trip,
let me off the boat because you're not reeling me

(37:06):
in on this thing. Like, I don't get it. And
I think the mic of things just been misplayed. And
I did an essay on it a couple of weeks ago,
is that it's like trying to take the keys away
from Grandpa. It's like, I mean, it's and I'm not
being mean spirited, it's just we all you get into
eighties and you have a big wild life of travel
and partying, and I just I think the Cowboys are

(37:28):
in a really, really tenuous spot.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Well it's getting pretty ugly clearly with Micah's agent, Jerry
won't talk to him because back in Jerry's heyday, he
could just talk to the player and get deals done
and the agents weren't as big of an issue beside
a couple of players here and there. I mean, I
saw a story recently that when he signed Deon Sanders,
he dealt with Deon Sanders and I'm sorry, Jerry, like
it sucks. I don't. I don't. Most of these people

(37:54):
don't want to deal with these agents. It's part of
the deal when you want to sign some of these
players you got to sign called David Mulgena or Drew
roz Neels, and Jerry just thinks he can go right
to Micah and it's made it way worse then. Like
you said, if you watch some of these clips of
Jerry twenty years ago, it was kind of like when
when Al was slipping. If you watch clips on NFL

(38:14):
network of Al Davis in the eighties talking about his team,
you know, it was like, God, this guy's really impressive,
you know, because they were they you know, Jerry was
different than now. I'd say Al was probably fell a
little more academic than Jerry and football guy. Jerry's a
little more of a gun slinging businessman. But they are
not the same in terms of like Al, towards the end,
it got really ugly. The difference is the raiders the

(38:37):
NFL hadn't quite taken off like a rocket ship with
the money, so like Al literally didn't have cash. Sometimes
he had to wait for them to be Jerry has
the money. Jerry's just playing hardball. He's very stubborn and
he's old, but he is like a lot of people
point out, sneaky, a little cheap, doesn't spend the amount
of cash as some of these teams, because if you
think about it, when Jerry got in the league, money

(38:58):
even then was a little tighter definitely than it is now.
But people will tell you in the league, well, it's like, look,
Jerry's got a two hundred million dollar yacht, but he
won't buy some players. Then they'll blame the cap space.
It's like, look at Jeffrey Leurry. You can manipulate it.
So it's whether they don't want to, it's whether they're
not capable of doing it because they're not on the
forefront of the cap capabilities. I don't know, but they

(39:19):
do feel a little a little closer to like the
way we talk about the Browns and the way we
used to talk about the Raiders, then the way they
get discussed sometimes because of their brand a little bit.
Let's face it, like the Genie Bus and Bus family
Lakers up until the last couple of years, especially now
that it's over with the new ownership. But mom and
pop shop. But this guy's old. It's like Steven, no

(39:41):
one's listened to him. Just kind of a shit show Collin.
This whole thing is to me, you got a first
time head coach that no one would have hired as
their offensive coordinator. Think about that with Brian Schottenneimer, if
he was fired with Mike McCarthy got an offensive coordinator
job and the answer is no, because he hadn't got
one in years, so he wasn't going to get one new.
And now he's your head coach, which and I'm not

(40:02):
trying to belittle the guy. I mean he comes from
football royalty, like he's there. Maybe he'll be okay, but
this is not an easy first job. Danner. Ask those
guys that tried to coach in the two thousands with
al it's hard.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
The So I was, this happened before I left, but
I thought it was interesting. So Mike Brown's the old
owner of the Bengals, and he kind of lashed out
and said, you know, the Trey Hendricks and stuff. You know,
he goes a lot of media makes good points, but
a lot of media is just talking. And I was

(40:36):
thinking about it as I was flying from Rhode Island
back to Chicago tonight. It is hard to have an
a level quarterback and missed the playoffs fourteen of the
thirty two teams make it, so forty percent of the
league makes it. Joe Burrow, there's an argument, was the
most efficient quarterback in the league last year. It's much

(40:58):
more than Mahomes, So there was an argument on a
week to week basis just efficiency quarterback rating, Burrow was
the best quarterback in the league last year. But think
about this in an offensive league and they didn't make
the playoffs. They didn't make it. That's almost john impossible.
In the NFL in twenty twenty four to twenty five.

(41:19):
If your quarterback, I mean it's you don't even have
to have a great quarterback. You can have a quarterback
having a great year, Sam Darnold, You're gonna win thirteen twelve,
thirteen fourteen games. They didn't make the playoffs. And the
reason they didn't make the playoffs. So you say, well
it's the coach, well then fire, Well they won't do
that because you'd have to pay out a couple of years.

(41:41):
The contract is so Trey Hendrickson. They literally I think
there are thirty second in quarterback pressures without Trey Hendrickson,
Like he is their pass rush and they're I mean,
he's it he's the pass rush and there I mean, listen,
Philadelphia can get pressure on the quarterback whe or without
Jay Carter. Jalen Carter is the game changer. He's like

(42:03):
one of one, his body type, his quickness. Hendrickson's not
great against the run, but he is their pass rush.
But this is like the fourth straight year. There's a
contract squabble here, there's there's a third straight year. Do
you think if Cincinnati doesn't make the playoffs again and
and and will give Burrow another great year because he's

(42:23):
a great player. Do you think Burrow would just say
just go scorts to Earth and say because I do.
I think I think Joe is bright, self aware. You're
starting to see him now do stuff in Paris in
the offseason. He is so frustrated with the organization. He
gets away from it, like he goes abroad. You're not

(42:45):
gonna stay in Ohio. I think if they I think
they're the fascinating team. If Cincinnati misses the playoffs, I
think Joe Burrow and his representatives may get ugly.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
The problem is we've seen how Mike Brown operates in
that scenario. He just I hows you to kick rocks
either with Carson Palmer. He's done it this offseason, he's
done in years past. I think they like the Bears
last year, it's like, you should have fired I reflution.
She could have hired Mike Rabel and you're probably a
playoff team in Caleb. No one, we're not even talking
about it. He's just solid, right, I just would have
worked And this offseason. The Chargers went through this forever

(43:18):
like Anthony Lynn, Mike McCoy, Brandon Stale. It's just hire
a real coach. What did they finally do Jim Harbaugh?
Who does everyone bought stock in for the last two
years the Chargers? Why because they got a real coach
and this is a team. Imagine if they had fired
Zach Taylor last year. Like obviously the Bears being in
Chicago is a hard job to pass up, especially if
they're gonna pay a lot of money. But to coach

(43:41):
Joe Burrow, I mean, I'm sorry, like you're kind of
remembered on wins and losses, not just like well I
coached the Bears. Well if you lost, no one cares, right,
no one's really talking about Matt Maggie, right, he would
rather coached Joe Burrow than mis Trubisky. So does do
they get Ben Johnson to just Mike Vrabel, like, hey,
I want that job over Drake, it's Joe Burrow. So
I think that it's hard to overcome this when you

(44:03):
hire cheap coaches, and that's kind of listen. Zach Taylor's
probably a nice guy and you know, solid NFL mind,
but we're not talking John McVeagh, Klem Channing. He's not
super dynamic. The organization is at super dynamic. But you
can overcome that. Like no one ever said that about
the Chargers till they got Jamar Ball and then they said.
Jim Harba said to listen, but you want me, I
need X, Y and Z. And now they're paying big
money for all these people and you feel good about them.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
But the difference is the LA market and the deal
that Dean Spanos has, you know, like the dollar a
year lease is they are swimming in cash because the
LA market drives so much revenue. Cincinnati doesn't. Their game
day revenue is near the bottom of the league. So
Brown won't pay fifteen million for a coach and twenty

(44:47):
four million.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
For a staff.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
I don't think they'll pay half that, whereas spanos can
go listen so far as a bank so far is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Or if they won't, Joe Burrow's got to ask out
then soon because you know, or their team's good enough
they can overcome it. But if that's the case, they
go nine to eight and they miss it again, it's
clear their coaching staff sucks. They fire him, and then
next year, whoever the hot guy is, they end up
with a third tier guy. It's like, you got to
get out because this is we've seen this song and dance.
I saw Antonio Gates point at Philip Rivers. Let's face it.

(45:18):
I mean they didn't exactly have the greatest coaches a
lot of their prime I mean, can you imagine if
those two guys would have had a Sean McVay, Kyle
shanahan and Kevin O'Connell, who knows the way we talk
about that run of like I remember those four out
of the last seven years the Chargers have been in
the Championship Game and made a couple of Super Bowls.
And that's the difference of just like, oh, that one
time Joe Burrow made the Super Bowl, or he's going

(45:40):
competing to go to the Super Bowl. Every single year,
so you would have to short the Browns, or excuse me,
the Bengals, because usually an owner, old guy like Jerry.
I've known a lot of older businessmen that usually don't
become more open minded in their mid seventies. That's not
how it works. So this is not changing with the
Brown family.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
And now for our next segment, Whiskey Business. Yes, Whiskey Business,
brought to you by Green River Whiskey, the official whiskey
of the Colin Coward Podcast. By the way, do you
watch the Hall of Fame ceremonies.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
I just sawl I used to watch it a lot.
They've kind of changed the sequence of the week because
remember they used to have the game on Sunday and
the thing would be Saturday night. Now they play the
game on Thursday and they do it like in the morning.
But I saw a lot of clips of Antonio Brown
and Sterling and Shannon and Jared Allen, who has like
some weird disease. Did you see that in a change
his diety he looks slim.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
But by the way, next year's class, Drew Brees, Larry
Finngerald in Julian Edelman's probably not a first ballot guy.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
I don't know if he's even gonna make it. Yeah,
one of the great all time winners, but I think
i've seen his numbers, like compared to like Wes Welker,
it's gonna be hard to overcome.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yeah, Philip Rivers probably won't. But Phillip's fascinating because and
Matt Hasselback had some of this. There were moments they
looked like Hall of Famers, but so much of it.
But Eli had moments he didn't look anything resembling a
Hall of Famer, but he had iconic moments, whereas Philip
was really Hall of Fame productive, but he didn't have

(47:19):
anything in January or February that was memorable. And so, yeah,
you know, the Hall of Fame. It's I think one
of the cooler stories is Antonio Gates, the first undrafted
Hall of Famer. I believe that there was a story
that you know, Philip Rivers was talking about for those

(47:40):
who didn't see it, where Philip basically said Antonio Gates
in the playbook. No matter what the play was, if
Antonio Gates was covered one on one that go to
Antonio Gates usurped any other play. There was like if
you looked at the coverage and they put like one
guy on him. It was like, we're going to Antonio Gates.

(48:02):
It did not matter the time, the situation, the field position.
It's funny. I remember watching Antonio Gates rookie year and
I've never been a fantasy football player, so nobody had
him on their team. And I've told this story before.
You can really see great fast. Eugene Robinson went to Colegate.

(48:23):
I was in Cheenie, Washington at the camp. I had
a program in my hand and he's lighting up receivers
for the Seahawks, lighting them up, and we're all, who's
the guy from Colegate Eugene Robinson. That's how I felt
about Antonio Gates, Like I remember watching him as a
rookie and going undrafted. I don't even understand this. Do

(48:46):
you remember the early recollections of Antonio Gates.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
I saw him a decent amount toward the latter half
of their career in the mid like twenty thirteen, fourteen
fifteen when they played the Raiders. But Colin he just
made the Hall of Fame. He did not play college football.
I mean he did not play called that will never
happen again. Jordan mylotta who's making I mean, how many
people have ever made the Pro Bowl, made the NFL.

(49:10):
We've had guys make the NFL. Rugby guys, you know,
wrestlers that didn't play college football. But to make a
Pro Bowl and not play college football, you know, my
lot is a little unique rugby guy from Australia. Antonio
Gates basketball player. Physically obviously, both these guys are really gifted.
I do think that Antonio Gates a lot of people.

(49:31):
I remember when I was in the NFL, we used
to like kind of like run studies and scout like
six three to six five power forwards, typically smaller schools,
you know, maybe like a Kent State that's where Antonio
Gates went, but New Mexico State, whatever, and try to
find a body type like that that could translate. And
it only exists because of him, Like if he hadn't existed,

(49:54):
no one would have thought like that. And let's face it,
there doesn't really exist. Since you know, Jimmy Jimmy gra
at Miami, I think he played his senior year if
I remember correctly, Yeah, but he was, you know, a
starter on the basketball team. But there were some guys
like Julius Peppers did both right, some guys do both,
like Donovan McNabb do both. This guy did not play
college football at Allah and then to go to the

(50:15):
NFL and play tight end. And let's let's face it,
when Antonio Gates came into the league in two thousand
and three three, it was a little more violent and
crazy than it is now in terms of the rules
hitting guys. So it was you were running across the
middle of Willy Nilly going they can't touch me, no.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
But I do remember the two thousand and four season
is when he really punked because he came in as
like a third or four shring guy. And I've always
been a Charger fan, so back Dan Fouts. So like
if you're a West Coast guy, you were always a
Charger fan. The West Chandler, John Jefferson, Dan Fouts, Chuck Muncy,
they're great offensive lines. So I've always watched the been

(50:56):
kind of a Charger fan, and I think everybody in
the West Coast was because the uniforms, the way they played.
They were always great offensively. It just didn't matter Herbert
Philip Rivers, Fouts, They've been good offensive Like Oregon football
They've always been fun offensively, and I can remember the
two thousand and four season when he would have he
was like, like, had a dozen touchdowns and people started

(51:18):
saying undrafted, and You're like, and then you started you know,
that's again it's twenty some years ago, but I think
I looked I looked at drafting different when I saw
Antonio Gates in two thousand and four, two thousand and five.
It really does make you realize what a crapshoot this

(51:40):
league is. Half the players that are playing in this league,
I think that it's like forty percent or undrafted that
are on rosters right now. And that's one of the
things about football that I think is so incredibly relatable.
In the NBA draft, you get to like sixteenth pick,
you're out of players. In Major League Baseball, you have

(52:02):
forty rounds. You can do forty rounds of drafting, but
most of your great players with the first two or
three rounds. What's remarkable, The best player ever is Tom
Brady's a sixth rounder. You and I could write and
if we went back and forth for the next ten minutes,
we could name great players from the third round on
every fan could you could name fifty of them. And

(52:24):
that's and I think Antonio Gates, if you go back
to his career, it really does. I mean Joe Montana's
I think was a third round pick. You have Brady's sixth,
Kurt Warner and Romo undrafted brought pretty seventh. So I
think I do think when I think of Antonio Gates,
I think of its sort of the beauty of pro
football in this country is it is. There's a lot

(52:46):
of plumbers in this league. There's a lot of dudes
that just started late. You know, like golf and baseball
and hockey, you have to start early. It is a
skill that has developed over over years, decades of practice.
If you play basketball, a lot of those skills work
in football. Run, jump, catch for a tight end.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah, well that's why you find people in both if
they hit the genet. You got to have the special
genetics to make the pros. But you can meet find
football players a guy that, yeah, I played high school.
I skipped it to play basketball at a small school
and then I made the Hall of Fame in the NFL.
One thing I learned going to camps. Once I left
the NFL and started doing this, and look at it

(53:26):
more from an er, you know, from talking about it
and the way fans think. You realize I don't waste
much time when I was going to camps and specifically
doing the Niners or Raiders stuff like talking about the four, fifth, sixth,
seventh rounders, because every single year those guys get cut
and get beat out by undrafted free agents. Hell, the
second rounders a lot of times they don't get cut,
but they are lower on the depth chart than the

(53:48):
sixth rounder at their same position because he was better.
And two years later that sixth rounders is starting. That
second rounder is not only a backup. A year later
he'll be cut and then we're a year away from
that guy making the Pro Bowl. Sixth rounders got a
big extension, and that is the NFL training camp that
undrafted free agents six seventh rounders. There there is a
meritocracy and it's called be a good player, and you

(54:10):
will move up at rapid speed. You are on scholarship
a little as a higher yes plays like a top seven.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Sam in baseball. If you if you're a first or
second round pick in baseball, you'll make the roster like
they'll put.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Guarantee you any playing time it doesn't guarante you a
starting spot, It does not guarantee you dressing on game days.
So I think the one thing that separates in football
in a lot of positions toughness and mental toughness because physically,
you know, I think Jimmy Johnson always had the thing
as fatigue makes cowards of us. All as you get tired,
you stop thinking. So the guys that can think as

(54:43):
they're tired, truly separating football training camp. All these camps,
it's hot, they're throwing. You know, for a lot of
these guys that come from some of these offenses and
defenses in college, you know, this isn't Most guys aren't
running Nick Saban's scheme. It's semi basic at a lot
of these college So they get there, it's intense, and
these coaches do not lay off the gas pedal on you.

(55:03):
So what over a lot of guys, it's not there physically,
they can't play in the NFL. It's mentally it's too much.
They don't know what's going on, and then it impacts
physically because they start playing slow. It's like you're gonna
get you. You can't, we can't put you on the
field and then they just start getting lapped because the
sixth rounder, this is a pretty example, just because he's
a late round pick, can handle it right. So he

(55:23):
can handle it mentally. So that if you can handle
it mentally, because you're getting drafted, you have some physical
skill that gives you a huge starting spot. So to me,
the mental edge on players is something. It's we don't
talk about them because how do you quantify it. You know,
coaches always say, like, this guy's smart, but what does
that really mean? It means a lot, you know. I

(55:45):
remember an assistant coaches, you just tell me. It's so
easy for everyone in the scouting department to go, hey, listen,
this guy's got all the skills. He's an idiot, not
even a great guy. But coach him up and then
he's like, we draft him, and then you guys just
hang out in the cafeteria like, how's it going? Coach
and I have to deal with them every day and
he's got no clue what's going on. And that's where

(56:05):
I think the value of smart guys. Well, when you
get the talented smart guy like an Aaron Donald, a
Trent Williams or Travis Kelce, like you got the guy's
gonna dominate, right Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
I also think, you know, basketball increasingly in my life
has become positionless, like Lebron could play point two, three
or four in his prime, right like it's become I mean,
Jokich is the best passing big man you know since
maybe Bill Walton.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Could play center in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
I mean, Jokich is a point center that didn't exist
ten years ago. Nobody talked about point centers. But football
is position specific. Guards can't play tight end. Tom Brady
could play one position, that is it, and he's the
greatest player in the history of the league. Lawrence Taylor

(56:53):
could maybe have played tight end. He's the best defensive player.
But Reggie White again probably wouldn't have been a great
tackle offensive tackle. He's the best defensive tackle of all time.
And so it's specific. And I think I think one
of the things you find, and Jimmy Johnson always talked
about this is like in football. I'm always very reluctant

(57:16):
on he's just a great athlete. Is love's playing football?
And my take on what does he do well? Like
it is it's not positionless. It's like baseball to a
large degree. You can be a utility infielder, but generally
a first baseman's a third baseman with no range. Right
a third baseman needs range and more athletic ability. That's

(57:37):
why Mark maguire ends over like a d H or
he can play first base, the center fielder, and the shortstop.
Of your great athletes, and I think, what football does.
I think they're really good drafters. They find even receivers. Now,
is he a boundary guy? Is he a slot guy?
You can't just draft a guy because it's like and
you know a lot of teams play zone. I guess

(57:59):
my whole point is what makes football difficult to draft
is that you have to have a specific skill, you
have to match the coaching staff, you have to stay healthy.
There's a lot of thing. That's why they're so go
look on it. Every team in this league you have
fifty five guys. Take the Eagles out. There's about four

(58:22):
really great players on every team. That's about even the Rams.
Stafford's great, Pukah's great versus great.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
And there's a lot of good.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
There's a lot of good.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
I also think, like, let's say we do this podcast
and by the end of tomorrow, two hundred and fifty
thousand people have listened, watched right consume this podcast. That's
a concrete number, easy to evaluate if you want to
sell it to advertisers. It's very black and white. We're
in football. Let's say I have I'm a prospect and
I play at UCLA and I get eleven sacks, but

(59:00):
seven of them came against UC Davis, against New Mexico
and against the worst team in the Big Ten. And
I had no sacks when we played Oregon, Ohio State, Michigan,
Penn State. It's like, well, you know, on all the lists,
this guy was one of the highest productive guys double
digitsack guys power for conference Big Ten. It's like, well, actually,

(59:22):
you know, let's really dive into this. You know, Khalil
Mack played at a small school, but he played Ohio
State his senior year at three sacks against Taylor Decker,
So it was like, I don't really know. Obviously he's
got these physical attributes, but I watched him do it
against that team. And the other track is there are
you know, in any business, the humans play a role,

(59:44):
but when you acquire a company, a lot of times
it's a product. It's something that's already kind of like
a built in infrastructure that aren't always human dependent, especially
now with technology right where in football it's never going
to change. As long as football, you're you're acquiring a
human and being. So it's like, how can he handle it?
How like physically is he tough enough? Because you can

(01:00:06):
get by. This happens in high school a lot. It's
why I think a lot of these coaches like I'm
not giving a high school player a million dollars, Like
I'm at Georgia o' house state, Like, okay, Jeremiah Smith,
but there's been a lot of Jeremiah Smith that everyone
thought was Jeremiah Smith. And he gets to college and
you never hear of him, and he never gets off
the bench because this guy's so much better than everyone
he's playing in high school. Right. So it's like once

(01:00:29):
you come to the NFL, like everyone's a pro. So
then practice like you just practicing. You just let's say
you play, you get a first round pick for the
Seattle Seahawks or the Arizona Cardinals. Like practice, you're playing
against the best players ever just in practice, let alone
the games that are about to come. So I think
it can really expose you. This is why drafting is
so difficult because you're dealing with humans with all these

(01:00:51):
variables that unlike all these other industries. Jimmy Haslam gave
a big press conference like earlier this week and he
even said, like, you know, in all my other industries,
if I want to hire a guy, I can just
hire him if something's going wrong. It's very easy to
figure out what a lot of unknowns in this business,
like was the play call? Is this guy dumb? Is
this guy not fast enough? You know, you just don't know.
Like the industry were in, it's it's pretty black and white.

(01:01:13):
I'd say football has the most variables, yea, of all
the sports.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
Yeah. I mean remember the kid from Clemson Simmons that
got drafted a few years ago. I think Steve Kim
drafted him, and.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
He was a tall kind of hybrid linebackers and he.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Was just like, holy god, he was a playmaker. And
then he goes to the pros and you're like, what
is he yet? Honey Badger, who wasn't fast enough to
be a lockdown corner? Honey Badger had a what is
he exactly? But his instincts were so insane that Honey

(01:01:48):
Badger becomes a great player and Simmons I always feel
like left too much on the cutting room floor. That's
just not enough. And I think those are two great
players where a lot of people, because of the drug
stuff with Honey Badger, were off him. And I remember
hearing from a assistant coach at LSU who said he

(01:02:09):
is the most instinctive player I've ever seen. I remember
watching LSU games with him. If there was a fumble,
he was on it. He was let literally by any turnover,
any tackle, and I'm like, Jesus, this kid can And
so Steve Kim told me that he goes. We thought
he had the best instincts we'd ever seen. So but
Simmons came in and it felt a little bit of

(01:02:29):
not positionless, but you weren't quite sure. And I always
felt he disappointed me. And that's a prime example of football,
like unless you have incredible instincts, you can be big,
strong and fast, but you just don't fit a system.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Well, think about this. It's a little dated because he
got kicked out of LSU for weed, but at the
time it was a big deal. He got kicked off
the program. He did not play his junior year, thought
about coming back remember, and then he goes pro. He
gets drafted in the third round and becomes a team
captain for the next four teams he's on. And Patrick Peterson,
who at the time was like the best player beside
Larry Fitzgerald on the and Carson Palmer on the Cardinals

(01:03:08):
like two years in, called honey Badger the heartbeat of
the team. So he becomes the team captain of that team.
He becomes a team captain of the Texans for a year,
goes to the Chiefs with Andy Mahomes, Kelsey becomes a
team captain. I got buddies that were around him that
called him like one of their favorite players they'd ever
been around. You just the guy was kicked out of
the team and goes on to become Honestly, it's an

(01:03:29):
incredible story, like one of the high character leaders of
the league that everyone respected. But the Isaiah Simmons thing.
I remember texting someone on a really good team and said,
what do you think of this guy? They're like, we
really ding them on the toughness. Obviously physically he was
a freak free like you watch him like he kinda
We didn't think he was just a hammer. You know
this he's not playing like Whu Funger or something down

(01:03:51):
and that, And that's hard to play when you're like
this hybrid Whu Fungo was this hybrid guy? What will
who fung to do? He will kill you? Ye know?
Why do coaches like who? Because like there's a physicality
when you're in space. You're either gonna be you better
be a lockdown guy or you kind of gotta have
a little cam Chancellor to you, you know, to play
in that roaming hybrid linebacker.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Say, think about Chase Young. I would have bet any
amount of money ten year All Pro where'd he go?
I mean Max Crosby is what we thought Chase Young
would be. So I mean yeah, I mean again, Clowny
a guy that some of these guys are so big
in high school, like they just in golf players. They
get a five star, they go to a big school,

(01:04:34):
they're surrounded by other great players, and they are splash players.
Clowny made highlight plays at South Carolina. He's a splash player.
But they're physically they grow up faster than other kids.
They're unblockable. The Andy katzen Moyer legendary, like one of
the best high school players ever they're just too big
to guard. And then they go to college and they're

(01:04:54):
still really good college players, but they're surrounded by five
star guys. They're really good guys, so they get, you know,
singularly blocked and they have some splash plays. But and
then I thought.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Naji Harris, who was when I was living in the
Bay Area, was I think the number one high school
recruising in the state of California. Harbball wanted him bad. Obviously,
Savan ended up getting him. He didn't really play at
a high level till his senior year in high school.
I remember texting someone around the program. They're like, well,
he kind of looked like a college guy at sixteen
years old. Yeah, and you know, I think Harball I

(01:05:27):
thought it was a little bit of an overpay. Obviously
you had the fourth of July incident. But why did
Harbaugh sign him? Because he's loved him since, you know,
when he tried to sign him at Michigan. I think
a lot of you talk to some other people around
the league, they're like, eh, Naji Harris not our cup
of tea. But Naji Harris a good example of in
high school. Naji Harris was a grown man playing against
high school kids, and that's why he went to Alabama.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
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a legend in a bottle today. All right, John Middle
cooffin I for an hour. We're getting very close. We

(01:06:11):
are getting very very close to the football season. And
I'll kind of tell you, John, I have played eleven
rounds of golf this summer. That's setting a new record
for me. And for years and years, my wife would
always say, you know, you got to find a hobby.
What are you going to do. You're sixty. You got
to find a hobby at some point. And I'm like,

(01:06:33):
I told her this weekend, I said, I was going
to learn French. I was going to learn their language.
I was going to get into drawing, kind of stick
figure drawing. I was going to get drawing class. And
I said, you know what I learned about myself. My
hobby has to be moving. I like, I got to
be moving. And this weekend I said, I love golf.

(01:06:56):
I love playing golf. I found my hobby, and so
I think for the last ten years I've been looking
for a hobby. And my wife's just been joking over
and over. She's like, you keep telling me you bought
a wine story because you thought it was gonna be
wine and then it was drawing. Then you're gonna learn French.
I I'm not addicted, but I think about golf now

(01:07:16):
the minute I get on a plane to go and
hang out. That's what I'm thinking about.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
I think it's got a lot of attributes that you
would enjoy. One you can you can have a cocktail
while you're doing it outside, so in the sun, and
I do think an underrated part. Even if you're playing
with someone you don't know that well, you can have
really good conversations about a lot of different things. It
is a very conversational Uh it's not you know you
you got to get If you want to work out,

(01:07:42):
you probably got to do it. Separate of golf, I
would not call it much of a physical activity if
you're in the cart, little walking depend on the course.
But to me, where the social elements. Because I'm with you,
I love it, But like I haven't played in three weeks,
Like I don't need to, Like I'm not addicted, and
why I always got to be on the course. I
use it. It's just a vehicle sometimes to get out.
But it does bring a social element into my life

(01:08:04):
that I could easily avoid as I just go tunnel
vision of work and my wife and not doing much
gets me. Get you talking in it's a couple of
cocktails usually involved. It's you rarely have a bad time,
especially in the summer. You get a little sweat outside,
enjoy yourself. Maybe cocktail after too, Like do you pull
into the clubhouse or the outside bar? Oh, have a
cool one?

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
No, it's And I got my group of guys in
a Rhode Island and I I just I always understood
why guys liked it. I just didn't have time for it.
But I gotta tell you my whole life, I've been
looking for a hobby and I found it. And I
told my wife, and I told her this yesterday. I said,
you know, you've been laughing for years that I can't.

(01:08:46):
My wife's like, your works, your hobby. You love podcasting,
you love doing that, you like reading about sports, And
I'm like, yeah, but I need something else, and exercise
isn't a hobby. It's just exercise, and I found it.
I'm just sort of that's all.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
That's the only extra hobby you need. That's that's sports
and golf. That's your life and my dogs. All right, buddy,
take it ease, see you soon. The volume