January 10, 2023 • 30 mins
Who is investigating Jessica’s case? We uncover the answer and moreover, a systemic issue within New Orleans.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey listeners Jessica here. Be sure to check out new
episodes of Undetermined every Tuesday for free wherever you get
your podcasts. For early and ad free listening, check out
Tenderfoot plus on Apple Podcasts. The views and opinions expressed
in this podcast are solely those of the individuals interviewed
(00:24):
and participating in the show, and do not represent those
of Tenderfoot TV and Resonate recordings. All individuals described or
mentioned in the podcast should be considered innocent until found
guilty in a court of law. This podcast contains subject
matter such as violence and graphic descriptions, which may not
(00:45):
be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It felt like there was no real investigation at all,
regardless of any and all information that Audra and Mandy
have shared with them. It just went nowhere. I feel
like most detectives in that situation would use a lot
less to do more. Even reading the autopsy report, it
(01:16):
kind of paints its own picture. It really does. I'll
put it this way. If it seemed like some sort
of foul play to three amateurs, I can only imagine.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
How it would look to someone who does this every
single day.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
My team and I have been actively investigating Jessica's case
for over two years now. In all of my conversations
with Jessica's family, something they've made abundantly clear is their
lack of faith in the INNOPD. Their biggest fear in
all of this isn't that answers surrounding Jessica's death can't
(02:21):
be found. It's that the INNOPD won't put in the
work to find them. They've had a strong feeling that
this case has been headed nowhere for some time now.
But despite the family's frustration with what they feel is
a stalled INOPD investigation, we've still learned a lot thus far.
(02:43):
We've heard the body cam footage of police talking with
Justin the day Jessica went missing. We've shared loads of
text messages and correspondence between Justin and those close to Jessica.
We've gone over all the reports we've obtained from the INNOPDA,
the coroner's office, and the family, discovering that a toxicology
(03:04):
screening found meth in Jessica's system, and then an autopsy
report indicated both pre and post mortem injuries to her body. Then,
in February twenty twenty one, the coroner released the following
statement regarding Jessica's death.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Advanced changes of decomposition can make determination of cause and
manner of death difficult, as it did in this case.
Due to this decomposition, toxicology testing was limited to liver tissue,
which did test positive for methamphetamine and bupropion. However, it
is unclear these results reflect recent intake, and a drug
(03:42):
related death cannot be ruled out.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
The coroner, of course listed Jessica's cause and manner of
death as undetermined. Her husband, Justin believes she died by suicide,
and we have a good idea where her family and
friends stand. Like I said, we've learned a lot up
to this point, but there are still some key elements
we don't know. Where does the case currently stand, who's
(04:10):
investigating it, and where does the investigation go from here.
When re examining a case like Jessica's, requesting access to
the case file is one of the first steps in
the investigative process, and we've put in our fair share
of requests, But the NPD only granted us access to
(04:32):
the initial missing person's report and the report filed when
she was found. All other items in the case file
were denied, citing that it was an open case. Quote
they relate to pending or reasonable anticipated criminal litigation. If
we're going to obtain any more case related information as
(04:54):
to why Jessica's case has stalled, it won't be from
the files. We'll have to start asking around in New Orleans.
Back in May twenty twenty one, Todd and I decided
to start at the best place we could think of,
the New Orleans Corner's Office also known as the Orleans
Parish Corner, to see what information we could get from them.
(05:18):
This is the same Corner's office who performed Jessica's autopsy.
We're hoping to find out more answers about what they
learned and gain a better understanding of where a case
like Jessica goes. Once the Corner's process is complete, we
park in the visitor lot of a large tan brick
(05:38):
building positioned beside a busy road. As traffic steadily passes by,
we make our way up to an entrance with double
glass doors. The doors are locked, but there's an intercom
call box to my right. I push the button, no answer.
I try a few more times.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Nothing.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
We call in after hours number listed on the door,
and a woman.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Answers, hi' is your office open?
Speaker 6 (06:12):
What would.
Speaker 7 (06:14):
We're here to adquire about the past case? The name
Jessica Derney, Do you are n I n G?
Speaker 6 (06:27):
All right, hold on it.
Speaker 8 (06:28):
At the moment.
Speaker 9 (06:32):
We're actually out front, we didn't know like if we
could come in to speak with someone or not.
Speaker 10 (06:38):
I would have to find out who the or prevent
the on the investigator. They're not there.
Speaker 11 (06:47):
We're actually just trying to see if the corner's office
and the investigator is still looking at it, or if
it's been kind of closed with the corner's office and
moved onto the police department.
Speaker 10 (07:00):
Yes, once the Ausosius the report has been completed, the
corner's office is complete with their investigation. We only handle
the remain so it would be on to the police at.
Speaker 11 (07:12):
This time, okay, perfect Is.
Speaker 9 (07:14):
There a way to see if it was turned over
to the homicide unit or district detectives?
Speaker 10 (07:23):
That would be a question for the police department.
Speaker 11 (07:27):
Is there an investigator on duty that can just explain
that process to us, just so that we have it
recorded as this is how it this is how it happens,
and it's how it goes.
Speaker 10 (07:38):
What actually happened is once the case is closed, and
if there is an office that's handling that case who
reported the debt, they would most times check back with
the coroner's office to see when that autopsy report is
available for requests.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
It will come in to collect it, and.
Speaker 10 (07:53):
Then they themselves would move forward with either going further
into investigating it or closing the case on their okay,
will be for the police department.
Speaker 11 (08:03):
Okay, So at this point the coroner's duties with it
are completely over.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
All.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Right.
Speaker 9 (08:10):
And if a case is left like cause of death undetermined,
and then the police get new information they think would
change that, do they then come back to your office
through an investigator or directly directly to an MD to
right to Yep.
Speaker 10 (08:25):
It would be to the pathologist or probably the chief pathologist.
Speaker 8 (08:30):
Ye.
Speaker 10 (08:30):
Most times it deals with the pathologist that performed that ortopy.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Okay, all right, thank you so much.
Speaker 11 (08:36):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 12 (08:38):
You're welcome, Thanks, goodbye.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
While we didn't get all of our questions answered, it's
a start. We now know officially that the coroner's office
is no longer investigating Jessica's case, at least until the
police give them more information or evidence to work with.
So on that note, headed over to the ENOPDS District
three to see what they could tell us about their investigation.
(09:07):
Parking in the back of the large police campus, we
walk over to the side visitors door. While dodging the rain,
we press the button for the intercom.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
I'd be right.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Okay, we're standing under a metal awning that's shielding us
from the persistent rain drops.
Speaker 8 (09:28):
Hut out one of our property grown charges.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
Great, okay, great, So what's score? A second kind of
guide you off to the right spot?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Okay, so we're after a brief wait, A towering man
in uniform push us through the double doors and greets us.
This is our conversation with Lieutenant Ernest Luster, who heads
up the n opd's third District Investigative Division or DIU.
This audio is from bodycam footage we received via public
(10:01):
records or quest.
Speaker 6 (10:03):
Hello, Mom, you all turned Lustlon and Lawrence police h John,
All right, I mean how can we help you?
Speaker 12 (10:09):
Okay? So her name is Jessica Noel and he is
a retired detective.
Speaker 11 (10:16):
I am an investigative journalist. We're working on a story
about a case. Jessica ply darning. Okay, and we were
told that you might be the head of the unit
that is looking at that.
Speaker 12 (10:28):
What we're interested in.
Speaker 11 (10:30):
If we're not familiar with New Orleans Investigations Police department,
we want to kind of show how.
Speaker 12 (10:40):
It goes from the scene of where her.
Speaker 11 (10:43):
Body was found to the corner to the police and
where that goes to investigations.
Speaker 12 (10:49):
Yeah, the process and procedure of that all right, So.
Speaker 6 (10:52):
How that works is so that's a determin about a
coroner's office. Right, So for example, when a body is found,
if if there's no determinate cause of how that person
may have died, we have to get that disposition from
the coroner's office. That makes the determination of where the
(11:12):
case is a signed. So if the case is if
the coroner classifies the case as a homicide, whether they
were killed by UH, whether it was Laful's trauma, whether
it was a shooting, UH, whether they were UH Stramolder, whatever,
whatever disposition at the coroner gives to us, then that
makes the determination as to where the case goes. So
(11:34):
if it's a homicide, and then the case will be
assigned to the Homicide's vision to do a follow up investigation.
If the case is unclassified, which is where this case
is now, then we have to wait for the coroners
to tell us what led to this person's demands or
that if it was drug overdose, natural causes, health related,
(11:59):
and the case stays with us until we get that
disposition from the corla. Right now, her case is with
us because the coroner hasn't given us any information to
determine a cause of death all At this point, all
they've told us is that she's had some form of
narcotic in her as system, but they haven't given classified
(12:22):
the case as to how she does. So until he
gives us that the case is in right now is
left in limbo until we can till we can move forward, okay,
because we can't move without that forensic evidence right.
Speaker 12 (12:36):
Because signed into a homicide detective if it's not yet
cusipited as a homicide correct.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Because we never yet detectives that are assigned to the
district like this third district. We work all robberies. We
work shootings where a person didn't die. We investigate activated assaults,
simple robberies, deaths, caught depths, arm robbers, and so forth.
(13:04):
Any type of homicide goes directly to the homicide division,
whether it be a drug overdose and the person was
poison whether they was shot, stabbed, however the demise happened
by the hands of someone else, that goes to the
homicide vision. In this sent to l When it's given
to us, we have to wait until we hear from
the coroner's office. If they say, hey, look we found
(13:26):
out this is this is how it occurred, then we
can talk to homicide and then say hey, look we
have the final disposition from the coroner, and this case
is given to you all to do investigations.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Just a quick pause here to remind you that a
homicide detective was on the scene when Jessica's body was found,
but since then her case has moved off the Homicide
Investigation Division's workload because of the undetermined classification from the coroner.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
This homicide usually respond to most of you that scenes
because it's theirs until you decide it's not most.
Speaker 6 (14:05):
It depends on the scene itself. It depends on the scene,
all right, Yeah, if it's something that appears to be
floul play, then they're gonna show up. If it's something
where let's say you got to and I'm just using
this as an example. Let's say as an elderly person
who was in a hospice environment and they had a
(14:28):
number of medical issues and they were found unresponsive in
their bed, and they're not gonna show up for that
because most likely that may be helped related. However, if
it's something if the officer gets out on the scene
and you said, well, hold loop, this doesn't look look
like it was the sounds of a struggle and this
person appears to be in an unconventional position, then homicide
(14:49):
is gonna come out and make that scene because there
may be more to it than what what would occur there.
When your cause and manner of death it's undetermined for.
Speaker 8 (14:58):
The coroner's office, and it drops from homicide standards and
announces the IU, it's it's it's considered unclassified.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
So an unclassified debt leads us in limbo because we're
not allowed to make any movements regarding the case because
we don't have a determinate cause of debt.
Speaker 8 (15:21):
So no one here would be like trying to go
out and find more information to fill in holes in what.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Happens because it's it's a forensics case. Whereas now the
detectives have interviewed, they have interviewed miss Mister Dernott be
elected not to be interviewed anymore without an attorney. They've
interviewed the family, They've given information to the family regarding
this case. However, we're in we're in a limbo phase
until the coroner says, Hey, this is how she died,
(15:50):
this is what this is what necessarily need to be taken.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Luster keeps using the word limbo to describe the status
of this case. To you'd hear a case is either
open or closed, but to Luster, it sounds like Jessica's
case is falling somewhere in the middle. Regardless, He's made
it clear that they're waiting on the corner to give
a more definitive cause and manner of death.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
But if you.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Remember, the coroner's office told us basically the same thing,
that they're waiting on the NPD for more information. So
which is it.
Speaker 12 (16:26):
So I will say, we spent to the corner's office,
I mean to be blunt, and they put it on
the police department. They said, our investigation is done with this.
They need to come to us with more evidence to
change the cause or manner.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Yeah, but we we have nothing further to go with, right, yeah, yeah,
you see what I'm saying. So what kind of stuff too,
because we don't have any more information that we can
provide unless the family can say, hey, this is what
else we have? Yeah, and we take that information and
then we bring it to the call and say, hey, look,
if this is what they found, what can you tell us?
Speaker 11 (17:00):
So if you had the right tip or lead to
come in, if we.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
Had exactly and that's what all cases. Never we would
always pacific anytime we would sive crime stoppers tips, anytime
we see phone calls that will give us a solid lead,
because we want to solve the case. We want the
noise beliefs wants to solve the case. We want to
give the family justice. If there's some some some foul
(17:24):
play here, we want to see these people. We want
to see people who are victims of crime, uh, you know,
bring closure to whatever case that they're victims of. Or
if the families have some questions, we want those questions
as so we would never ignore that kind of stuff
you find.
Speaker 8 (17:43):
With overdoses, for instance, or when when drug levels are
found in the body and you do have a period
of time before the body's found several days a week
or so, that it's hard to determine at the coroner's
office or to a medical examiner if it was an
overdose or not be does the levels reduced?
Speaker 6 (18:02):
Honestly, I couldn't answer that. Yeah, that's something that they
would have to give me forensically, because we you know,
our job as an investigator is to let them tell us. Listen,
do you believe that this person was We've had cases
where people were given drugs and od and we charged
(18:23):
the person who gave out the drugs based on the
level of evidence we had in the interviews, based on
the statements that were made. Person say yeah, we were
out parting and I handed her it is right, and
she took it and she got They got charged for negligence,
all right. In this case, we don't have that. We've
we had a bout the reported found. We hope that
(18:46):
the coroner would give us something to bring clarity to
that case so that way we can effectively investigate it
without any obstacles in our way.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
As we continue speaking with Luster, he doubles back to
the idea of a potential drug overdose. He says, for example,
if we knew how Jessica got the drugs or if
she willingly took them, maybe we'd have a different story here.
But we don't know. All we know in Jessica's case
(19:16):
is that she had drugs in her system. And Lester says,
that doesn't help as far as an investigation goes.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
Until they give us clarity and say, hey, this person's
killed or this person died as a zonner or overdose,
we're we're pretty much.
Speaker 12 (19:31):
Left in the level right and would you consider it
a pole case?
Speaker 6 (19:36):
I mean right now until we can get more evidence
to prove otherwise I would have classified as that now
because we cannot. We can't of course create evidence. We
have to get something solid that we can corroborate to
give us. You know problem cause any status cases? Is
(19:57):
that part of your job? No? Well my part? My
my job is I I supervised the supervisor, okay, who
give classification to the case. So this case is not
considered code is just still open it.
Speaker 8 (20:08):
Well, is there a greed of time if no new
leads or information come in where a case like this
would be reclassified from open to closed.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
It would never be closed, so it could be open
in our country a murder is open until we saw
that even if it happens, if we find out something
two hundred years from now, if we get evidence and
we've had cold cases of fact. There was a cold
case that that just recently got open in another parish
where they found out a guy from DNA evidence from
nineteen ninety eight that stabbed the leading and they arrested
(20:42):
him because they had the DNA evidence to prove wise,
but it was a twenty year old case, but he
was charged with burth. So as as far as I'm
returned and as far as our department is concerned, those
cases stay open until we solved.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
So you won tips to come in, Yes, from anywhere?
Speaker 6 (21:00):
Information? Yes, oh yes, indeed that's how most of our
crimes and no matter what they are, the community is
a big part of the family is a big part
the acquaintances that the France. Whatever information they can provide
for us, we'll we take that information so that we
can use it and try to develop a lief. Yes,
(21:22):
it really does. And trust me, Law's police is passionate
about bringing families justice and bringing cases of giving families closure.
In all cases.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
We had hoped to find out who is investigating Jessica's case.
But the disturbing answer we found was no one is.
If what the lieutenant is telling us is in fact
n OPD procedure, then the n OPD is waiting on
the corner to classify it as a homicide in order
to investigate it as such. But at the same time,
(21:59):
the corner is waiting on the UPD to give them
more evidence to change the manner of death, leaving it
just as he states in limbo. In the law enforcement
(22:20):
and medical world, there's an acronym that perfectly describes Justic's case, CuPy,
which stands for Circumstances undetermined pending police investigation. So what
happens when two investigative agencies in charge of the case
both claim they are waiting on the other to move forward. Well,
(22:42):
as Todd and I have learned, nothing happens, which is
why Jessica's case has been in a perpetual stalemate. Justica's
case isn't officially classified as cold yet, but without tips
and leads, it is growing colder by the minute. To
the NPD, it's considered unclassified. To the coroner, it's considered undetermined.
(23:07):
But some see it as an opportunity for a second look.
Doctor Kimberly Masnik, who you may remember from our analysis
of Jessica's autopsy, is the director and founder of a
cold Case investigations institute in Florida. She tells me they
work hand in hand with the detectives on each of
those cases, and she was able to give us some
(23:30):
perspective on what would need to happen in order for
this case to move forward undetermined.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
It's kind of I want to call it a placeholder.
I like that it's there because it gives us the
opportunity to pull Jessica off the shelf and look at
this case again, because in forty years, who knows what's
going to change in science. If that said anything other
than that, that case would be closed, and then I
(23:58):
wouldn't have the op opportunity to be able to pull
it off the shelf ten twenty thirty years from now. So,
having watched many interviews with her sister, that sister's not
going away. As long as it says undetermined, we can
keep it on the shelf and we can work it.
We can pull it off and dust it off and
(24:19):
call it not cold at any point in time.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Basically, if there's one good thing about an undetermined classification,
it's that it does leave the door open for the
case to be worked and possibly even solved. But how
do you make a change in classification happen. Doctor Masnik says,
for starters, the NPD should be working in tandem with
the corner.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
If you don't ask the corner to specifically test for something,
that test does not get done because that corner or
that medical examiner is relying on you, the officer, to
give them as much infor as possible so that they
know how to do their job to the best of
(25:05):
their ability. This case stands out to me as one
that definitely needs to be re examined. For whatever reason,
it wasn't followed through the first time by multiple agencies
that should or could have done things. So it's not
(25:26):
just a law enforcement thing, it's not just a medical
examiner thing. It's a bunch of people things. So that
jumps out at me is this case definitely needs to
be looked at because it's potentially a very solvable case
given the right circumstance.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Doctor Masnik has a good point. There is potential for
Jessica's case to be solved, but at the end of
the day. Based on what we've heard so far from
the corner and law enforcement, more information is needed now.
This case is a cuppy. No rest have been made,
(26:05):
no persons of interest or suspects have been named publicly,
and although Jessica's body has been laid to rest, there's
no closure, if there's even such a thing as closure
for families like Jessica, and no justice. That does not
sit well with Audrey or the rest of Jessica's loved ones. Again,
(26:28):
they've recognized the stagnancy of this investigation for a while,
so the fact that Jessica's case is in limbo is
no surprise to them. Audrey says she's felt like this
has been the norm ever since the Corner was working
with the family to try and identify Jessica's body, which
is why she's felt that she's needed to take things
(26:50):
into her own hands. Like doctor Masnik said, she's not
going away, and as it turns out, she isn't going
quietly either. After returning briefly to the Lakeview neighborhood to
plaster signs to every pole she could find and ask
anyone who knows anything to call crime stoppers and the
(27:13):
NPD Audrey took to the loudest public platform she could find.
She started sharing everything she could about her sister's case
on social media and people have taken notice. Like the
lieutenant said, it's going to take a village to solve
Jessica's case, and her family was about to get some
(27:35):
new information from a couple in that village who stumbled
upon something in the same spot where Jessica was discovered
seven months earlier.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
We were walking the dog.
Speaker 13 (27:48):
We're heading towards City Park and we were going between
the railroad and that security building. I spot that ID
on the ground. I picked it up and I walk
over to her and I show it to her and
she says, oh, that's a woman who was killed.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Undetermined is a production of Resonate Recordings and Tenderfoot TV
in conjunction with Cadence thirteen, written and hosted by me
Jessica Nole and produced by Dennis Cooper and Todd McComas,
with additional production by Whitney Bozart. Executive producers are Dennis Cooper,
(28:56):
Mark Minnery, Jacob Bozart, Donald Albright, Payne Lindsay. Our senior
producer is John Street, Editing, mixing, mastering, and sound design
by Caleb Melcher, Dayton Cole, and Pat Kicklider of the
Resonate Recordings team. If you have a podcast or are
looking to start one, check us out at resonate Recordings
(29:20):
dot com. Our theme song and original score is by
Dirt Poor Robbins, with additional scoring by Dayton Cole. Our
cover art is by Station sixteen. You can follow Undetermined
Podcast on Facebook and on Twitter at Undetermined Pod. Show
notes as well as bonus content can be found on
(29:41):
our website undetermined pod dot com. If you enjoyed this episode,
please take time to subscribe, rate, and review. Your feedback
is greatly appreciated. And finally, if you have any information
about this case, call crime Stoppers at one eight seven
seven nine zero three seven eight six seven
Hey listeners Jessica here. Be sure to check out new
episodes of Undetermined every Tuesday for free wherever you get
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in this podcast are solely those of the individuals interviewed
(00:24):
and participating in the show, and do not represent those
of Tenderfoot TV and Resonate recordings. All individuals described or
mentioned in the podcast should be considered innocent until found
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matter such as violence and graphic descriptions, which may not
(00:45):
be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It felt like there was no real investigation at all,
regardless of any and all information that Audra and Mandy
have shared with them. It just went nowhere. I feel
like most detectives in that situation would use a lot
less to do more. Even reading the autopsy report, it
(01:16):
kind of paints its own picture. It really does. I'll
put it this way. If it seemed like some sort
of foul play to three amateurs, I can only imagine.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
How it would look to someone who does this every
single day.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
My team and I have been actively investigating Jessica's case
for over two years now. In all of my conversations
with Jessica's family, something they've made abundantly clear is their
lack of faith in the INNOPD. Their biggest fear in
all of this isn't that answers surrounding Jessica's death can't
(02:21):
be found. It's that the INNOPD won't put in the
work to find them. They've had a strong feeling that
this case has been headed nowhere for some time now.
But despite the family's frustration with what they feel is
a stalled INOPD investigation, we've still learned a lot thus far.
(02:43):
We've heard the body cam footage of police talking with
Justin the day Jessica went missing. We've shared loads of
text messages and correspondence between Justin and those close to Jessica.
We've gone over all the reports we've obtained from the INNOPDA,
the coroner's office, and the family, discovering that a toxicology
(03:04):
screening found meth in Jessica's system, and then an autopsy
report indicated both pre and post mortem injuries to her body. Then,
in February twenty twenty one, the coroner released the following
statement regarding Jessica's death.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Advanced changes of decomposition can make determination of cause and
manner of death difficult, as it did in this case.
Due to this decomposition, toxicology testing was limited to liver tissue,
which did test positive for methamphetamine and bupropion. However, it
is unclear these results reflect recent intake, and a drug
(03:42):
related death cannot be ruled out.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
The coroner, of course listed Jessica's cause and manner of
death as undetermined. Her husband, Justin believes she died by suicide,
and we have a good idea where her family and
friends stand. Like I said, we've learned a lot up
to this point, but there are still some key elements
we don't know. Where does the case currently stand, who's
(04:10):
investigating it, and where does the investigation go from here.
When re examining a case like Jessica's, requesting access to
the case file is one of the first steps in
the investigative process, and we've put in our fair share
of requests, But the NPD only granted us access to
(04:32):
the initial missing person's report and the report filed when
she was found. All other items in the case file
were denied, citing that it was an open case. Quote
they relate to pending or reasonable anticipated criminal litigation. If
we're going to obtain any more case related information as
(04:54):
to why Jessica's case has stalled, it won't be from
the files. We'll have to start asking around in New Orleans.
Back in May twenty twenty one, Todd and I decided
to start at the best place we could think of,
the New Orleans Corner's Office also known as the Orleans
Parish Corner, to see what information we could get from them.
(05:18):
This is the same Corner's office who performed Jessica's autopsy.
We're hoping to find out more answers about what they
learned and gain a better understanding of where a case
like Jessica goes. Once the Corner's process is complete, we
park in the visitor lot of a large tan brick
(05:38):
building positioned beside a busy road. As traffic steadily passes by,
we make our way up to an entrance with double
glass doors. The doors are locked, but there's an intercom
call box to my right. I push the button, no answer.
I try a few more times.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Nothing.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
We call in after hours number listed on the door,
and a woman.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Answers, hi' is your office open?
Speaker 6 (06:12):
What would.
Speaker 7 (06:14):
We're here to adquire about the past case? The name
Jessica Derney, Do you are n I n G?
Speaker 6 (06:27):
All right, hold on it.
Speaker 8 (06:28):
At the moment.
Speaker 9 (06:32):
We're actually out front, we didn't know like if we
could come in to speak with someone or not.
Speaker 10 (06:38):
I would have to find out who the or prevent
the on the investigator. They're not there.
Speaker 11 (06:47):
We're actually just trying to see if the corner's office
and the investigator is still looking at it, or if
it's been kind of closed with the corner's office and
moved onto the police department.
Speaker 10 (07:00):
Yes, once the Ausosius the report has been completed, the
corner's office is complete with their investigation. We only handle
the remain so it would be on to the police at.
Speaker 11 (07:12):
This time, okay, perfect Is.
Speaker 9 (07:14):
There a way to see if it was turned over
to the homicide unit or district detectives?
Speaker 10 (07:23):
That would be a question for the police department.
Speaker 11 (07:27):
Is there an investigator on duty that can just explain
that process to us, just so that we have it
recorded as this is how it this is how it happens,
and it's how it goes.
Speaker 10 (07:38):
What actually happened is once the case is closed, and
if there is an office that's handling that case who
reported the debt, they would most times check back with
the coroner's office to see when that autopsy report is
available for requests.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
It will come in to collect it, and.
Speaker 10 (07:53):
Then they themselves would move forward with either going further
into investigating it or closing the case on their okay,
will be for the police department.
Speaker 11 (08:03):
Okay, So at this point the coroner's duties with it
are completely over.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
All.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Right.
Speaker 9 (08:10):
And if a case is left like cause of death undetermined,
and then the police get new information they think would
change that, do they then come back to your office
through an investigator or directly directly to an MD to
right to Yep.
Speaker 10 (08:25):
It would be to the pathologist or probably the chief pathologist.
Speaker 8 (08:30):
Ye.
Speaker 10 (08:30):
Most times it deals with the pathologist that performed that ortopy.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Okay, all right, thank you so much.
Speaker 11 (08:36):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 12 (08:38):
You're welcome, Thanks, goodbye.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
While we didn't get all of our questions answered, it's
a start. We now know officially that the coroner's office
is no longer investigating Jessica's case, at least until the
police give them more information or evidence to work with.
So on that note, headed over to the ENOPDS District
three to see what they could tell us about their investigation.
(09:07):
Parking in the back of the large police campus, we
walk over to the side visitors door. While dodging the rain,
we press the button for the intercom.
Speaker 8 (09:19):
I'd be right.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Okay, we're standing under a metal awning that's shielding us
from the persistent rain drops.
Speaker 8 (09:28):
Hut out one of our property grown charges.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
Great, okay, great, So what's score? A second kind of
guide you off to the right spot?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Okay, so we're after a brief wait, A towering man
in uniform push us through the double doors and greets us.
This is our conversation with Lieutenant Ernest Luster, who heads
up the n opd's third District Investigative Division or DIU.
This audio is from bodycam footage we received via public
(10:01):
records or quest.
Speaker 6 (10:03):
Hello, Mom, you all turned Lustlon and Lawrence police h John,
All right, I mean how can we help you?
Speaker 12 (10:09):
Okay? So her name is Jessica Noel and he is
a retired detective.
Speaker 11 (10:16):
I am an investigative journalist. We're working on a story
about a case. Jessica ply darning. Okay, and we were
told that you might be the head of the unit
that is looking at that.
Speaker 12 (10:28):
What we're interested in.
Speaker 11 (10:30):
If we're not familiar with New Orleans Investigations Police department,
we want to kind of show how.
Speaker 12 (10:40):
It goes from the scene of where her.
Speaker 11 (10:43):
Body was found to the corner to the police and
where that goes to investigations.
Speaker 12 (10:49):
Yeah, the process and procedure of that all right, So.
Speaker 6 (10:52):
How that works is so that's a determin about a
coroner's office. Right, So for example, when a body is found,
if if there's no determinate cause of how that person
may have died, we have to get that disposition from
the coroner's office. That makes the determination of where the
(11:12):
case is a signed. So if the case is if
the coroner classifies the case as a homicide, whether they
were killed by UH, whether it was Laful's trauma, whether
it was a shooting, UH, whether they were UH Stramolder, whatever,
whatever disposition at the coroner gives to us, then that
makes the determination as to where the case goes. So
(11:34):
if it's a homicide, and then the case will be
assigned to the Homicide's vision to do a follow up investigation.
If the case is unclassified, which is where this case
is now, then we have to wait for the coroners
to tell us what led to this person's demands or
that if it was drug overdose, natural causes, health related,
(11:59):
and the case stays with us until we get that
disposition from the corla. Right now, her case is with
us because the coroner hasn't given us any information to
determine a cause of death all At this point, all
they've told us is that she's had some form of
narcotic in her as system, but they haven't given classified
(12:22):
the case as to how she does. So until he
gives us that the case is in right now is
left in limbo until we can till we can move forward, okay,
because we can't move without that forensic evidence right.
Speaker 12 (12:36):
Because signed into a homicide detective if it's not yet
cusipited as a homicide correct.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Because we never yet detectives that are assigned to the
district like this third district. We work all robberies. We
work shootings where a person didn't die. We investigate activated assaults,
simple robberies, deaths, caught depths, arm robbers, and so forth.
(13:04):
Any type of homicide goes directly to the homicide division,
whether it be a drug overdose and the person was
poison whether they was shot, stabbed, however the demise happened
by the hands of someone else, that goes to the
homicide vision. In this sent to l When it's given
to us, we have to wait until we hear from
the coroner's office. If they say, hey, look we found
(13:26):
out this is this is how it occurred, then we
can talk to homicide and then say hey, look we
have the final disposition from the coroner, and this case
is given to you all to do investigations.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Just a quick pause here to remind you that a
homicide detective was on the scene when Jessica's body was found,
but since then her case has moved off the Homicide
Investigation Division's workload because of the undetermined classification from the coroner.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
This homicide usually respond to most of you that scenes
because it's theirs until you decide it's not most.
Speaker 6 (14:05):
It depends on the scene itself. It depends on the scene,
all right, Yeah, if it's something that appears to be
floul play, then they're gonna show up. If it's something
where let's say you got to and I'm just using
this as an example. Let's say as an elderly person
who was in a hospice environment and they had a
(14:28):
number of medical issues and they were found unresponsive in
their bed, and they're not gonna show up for that
because most likely that may be helped related. However, if
it's something if the officer gets out on the scene
and you said, well, hold loop, this doesn't look look
like it was the sounds of a struggle and this
person appears to be in an unconventional position, then homicide
(14:49):
is gonna come out and make that scene because there
may be more to it than what what would occur there.
When your cause and manner of death it's undetermined for.
Speaker 8 (14:58):
The coroner's office, and it drops from homicide standards and
announces the IU, it's it's it's considered unclassified.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
So an unclassified debt leads us in limbo because we're
not allowed to make any movements regarding the case because
we don't have a determinate cause of debt.
Speaker 8 (15:21):
So no one here would be like trying to go
out and find more information to fill in holes in what.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Happens because it's it's a forensics case. Whereas now the
detectives have interviewed, they have interviewed miss Mister Dernott be
elected not to be interviewed anymore without an attorney. They've
interviewed the family, They've given information to the family regarding
this case. However, we're in we're in a limbo phase
until the coroner says, Hey, this is how she died,
(15:50):
this is what this is what necessarily need to be taken.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Luster keeps using the word limbo to describe the status
of this case. To you'd hear a case is either
open or closed, but to Luster, it sounds like Jessica's
case is falling somewhere in the middle. Regardless, He's made
it clear that they're waiting on the corner to give
a more definitive cause and manner of death.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
But if you.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Remember, the coroner's office told us basically the same thing,
that they're waiting on the NPD for more information. So
which is it.
Speaker 12 (16:26):
So I will say, we spent to the corner's office,
I mean to be blunt, and they put it on
the police department. They said, our investigation is done with this.
They need to come to us with more evidence to
change the cause or manner.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Yeah, but we we have nothing further to go with, right, yeah, yeah,
you see what I'm saying. So what kind of stuff too,
because we don't have any more information that we can
provide unless the family can say, hey, this is what
else we have? Yeah, and we take that information and
then we bring it to the call and say, hey, look,
if this is what they found, what can you tell us?
Speaker 11 (17:00):
So if you had the right tip or lead to
come in, if we.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
Had exactly and that's what all cases. Never we would
always pacific anytime we would sive crime stoppers tips, anytime
we see phone calls that will give us a solid lead,
because we want to solve the case. We want the
noise beliefs wants to solve the case. We want to
give the family justice. If there's some some some foul
(17:24):
play here, we want to see these people. We want
to see people who are victims of crime, uh, you know,
bring closure to whatever case that they're victims of. Or
if the families have some questions, we want those questions
as so we would never ignore that kind of stuff
you find.
Speaker 8 (17:43):
With overdoses, for instance, or when when drug levels are
found in the body and you do have a period
of time before the body's found several days a week
or so, that it's hard to determine at the coroner's
office or to a medical examiner if it was an
overdose or not be does the levels reduced?
Speaker 6 (18:02):
Honestly, I couldn't answer that. Yeah, that's something that they
would have to give me forensically, because we you know,
our job as an investigator is to let them tell us. Listen,
do you believe that this person was We've had cases
where people were given drugs and od and we charged
(18:23):
the person who gave out the drugs based on the
level of evidence we had in the interviews, based on
the statements that were made. Person say yeah, we were
out parting and I handed her it is right, and
she took it and she got They got charged for negligence,
all right. In this case, we don't have that. We've
we had a bout the reported found. We hope that
(18:46):
the coroner would give us something to bring clarity to
that case so that way we can effectively investigate it
without any obstacles in our way.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
As we continue speaking with Luster, he doubles back to
the idea of a potential drug overdose. He says, for example,
if we knew how Jessica got the drugs or if
she willingly took them, maybe we'd have a different story here.
But we don't know. All we know in Jessica's case
(19:16):
is that she had drugs in her system. And Lester says,
that doesn't help as far as an investigation goes.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
Until they give us clarity and say, hey, this person's
killed or this person died as a zonner or overdose,
we're we're pretty much.
Speaker 12 (19:31):
Left in the level right and would you consider it
a pole case?
Speaker 6 (19:36):
I mean right now until we can get more evidence
to prove otherwise I would have classified as that now
because we cannot. We can't of course create evidence. We
have to get something solid that we can corroborate to
give us. You know problem cause any status cases? Is
(19:57):
that part of your job? No? Well my part? My
my job is I I supervised the supervisor, okay, who
give classification to the case. So this case is not
considered code is just still open it.
Speaker 8 (20:08):
Well, is there a greed of time if no new
leads or information come in where a case like this
would be reclassified from open to closed.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
It would never be closed, so it could be open
in our country a murder is open until we saw
that even if it happens, if we find out something
two hundred years from now, if we get evidence and
we've had cold cases of fact. There was a cold
case that that just recently got open in another parish
where they found out a guy from DNA evidence from
nineteen ninety eight that stabbed the leading and they arrested
(20:42):
him because they had the DNA evidence to prove wise,
but it was a twenty year old case, but he
was charged with burth. So as as far as I'm
returned and as far as our department is concerned, those
cases stay open until we solved.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
So you won tips to come in, Yes, from anywhere?
Speaker 6 (21:00):
Information? Yes, oh yes, indeed that's how most of our
crimes and no matter what they are, the community is
a big part of the family is a big part
the acquaintances that the France. Whatever information they can provide
for us, we'll we take that information so that we
can use it and try to develop a lief. Yes,
(21:22):
it really does. And trust me, Law's police is passionate
about bringing families justice and bringing cases of giving families closure.
In all cases.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
We had hoped to find out who is investigating Jessica's case.
But the disturbing answer we found was no one is.
If what the lieutenant is telling us is in fact
n OPD procedure, then the n OPD is waiting on
the corner to classify it as a homicide in order
to investigate it as such. But at the same time,
(21:59):
the corner is waiting on the UPD to give them
more evidence to change the manner of death, leaving it
just as he states in limbo. In the law enforcement
(22:20):
and medical world, there's an acronym that perfectly describes Justic's case, CuPy,
which stands for Circumstances undetermined pending police investigation. So what
happens when two investigative agencies in charge of the case
both claim they are waiting on the other to move forward. Well,
(22:42):
as Todd and I have learned, nothing happens, which is
why Jessica's case has been in a perpetual stalemate. Justica's
case isn't officially classified as cold yet, but without tips
and leads, it is growing colder by the minute. To
the NPD, it's considered unclassified. To the coroner, it's considered undetermined.
(23:07):
But some see it as an opportunity for a second look.
Doctor Kimberly Masnik, who you may remember from our analysis
of Jessica's autopsy, is the director and founder of a
cold Case investigations institute in Florida. She tells me they
work hand in hand with the detectives on each of
those cases, and she was able to give us some
(23:30):
perspective on what would need to happen in order for
this case to move forward undetermined.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
It's kind of I want to call it a placeholder.
I like that it's there because it gives us the
opportunity to pull Jessica off the shelf and look at
this case again, because in forty years, who knows what's
going to change in science. If that said anything other
than that, that case would be closed, and then I
(23:58):
wouldn't have the op opportunity to be able to pull
it off the shelf ten twenty thirty years from now. So,
having watched many interviews with her sister, that sister's not
going away. As long as it says undetermined, we can
keep it on the shelf and we can work it.
We can pull it off and dust it off and
(24:19):
call it not cold at any point in time.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Basically, if there's one good thing about an undetermined classification,
it's that it does leave the door open for the
case to be worked and possibly even solved. But how
do you make a change in classification happen. Doctor Masnik says,
for starters, the NPD should be working in tandem with
the corner.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
If you don't ask the corner to specifically test for something,
that test does not get done because that corner or
that medical examiner is relying on you, the officer, to
give them as much infor as possible so that they
know how to do their job to the best of
(25:05):
their ability. This case stands out to me as one
that definitely needs to be re examined. For whatever reason,
it wasn't followed through the first time by multiple agencies
that should or could have done things. So it's not
(25:26):
just a law enforcement thing, it's not just a medical
examiner thing. It's a bunch of people things. So that
jumps out at me is this case definitely needs to
be looked at because it's potentially a very solvable case
given the right circumstance.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Doctor Masnik has a good point. There is potential for
Jessica's case to be solved, but at the end of
the day. Based on what we've heard so far from
the corner and law enforcement, more information is needed now.
This case is a cuppy. No rest have been made,
(26:05):
no persons of interest or suspects have been named publicly,
and although Jessica's body has been laid to rest, there's
no closure, if there's even such a thing as closure
for families like Jessica, and no justice. That does not
sit well with Audrey or the rest of Jessica's loved ones. Again,
(26:28):
they've recognized the stagnancy of this investigation for a while,
so the fact that Jessica's case is in limbo is
no surprise to them. Audrey says she's felt like this
has been the norm ever since the Corner was working
with the family to try and identify Jessica's body, which
is why she's felt that she's needed to take things
(26:50):
into her own hands. Like doctor Masnik said, she's not
going away, and as it turns out, she isn't going
quietly either. After returning briefly to the Lakeview neighborhood to
plaster signs to every pole she could find and ask
anyone who knows anything to call crime stoppers and the
(27:13):
NPD Audrey took to the loudest public platform she could find.
She started sharing everything she could about her sister's case
on social media and people have taken notice. Like the
lieutenant said, it's going to take a village to solve
Jessica's case, and her family was about to get some
(27:35):
new information from a couple in that village who stumbled
upon something in the same spot where Jessica was discovered
seven months earlier.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
We were walking the dog.
Speaker 13 (27:48):
We're heading towards City Park and we were going between
the railroad and that security building. I spot that ID
on the ground. I picked it up and I walk
over to her and I show it to her and
she says, oh, that's a woman who was killed.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Undetermined is a production of Resonate Recordings and Tenderfoot TV
in conjunction with Cadence thirteen, written and hosted by me
Jessica Nole and produced by Dennis Cooper and Todd McComas,
with additional production by Whitney Bozart. Executive producers are Dennis Cooper,
(28:56):
Mark Minnery, Jacob Bozart, Donald Albright, Payne Lindsay. Our senior
producer is John Street, Editing, mixing, mastering, and sound design
by Caleb Melcher, Dayton Cole, and Pat Kicklider of the
Resonate Recordings team. If you have a podcast or are
looking to start one, check us out at resonate Recordings
(29:20):
dot com. Our theme song and original score is by
Dirt Poor Robbins, with additional scoring by Dayton Cole. Our
cover art is by Station sixteen. You can follow Undetermined
Podcast on Facebook and on Twitter at Undetermined Pod. Show
notes as well as bonus content can be found on
(29:41):
our website undetermined pod dot com. If you enjoyed this episode,
please take time to subscribe, rate, and review. Your feedback
is greatly appreciated. And finally, if you have any information
about this case, call crime Stoppers at one eight seven
seven nine zero three seven eight six seven
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