Wins & Losses- Clay talks with Colorado head coach Mel Tucker

This week on Wins & Losses, Clay Travis is joined by Colorado head football coach Mel Tucker. Clay and coach Tucker dive into the beginning of his football life, and the difficult decision he had to make in choosing between playing at Air Force, where his mother wanted him to go, and Wisconsin, where his father preferred. The two also talk about his start in coaching, which began as a graduate assistant under Nick Saban at Michigan State, where he worked ridiculous hours. Coach Tucker took numerous stops along the way, in both college and the NFL, coaching under Nick Saban again, as well as Kirby Smart, and eventually landed him in Boulder where he is the current head football coach. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis, play talks
with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business.
Now here's Clay Trevis. Welcome Ed Winston lost his podcast.
I am Clay Travis. We try to dive into fun
and interesting stories from people all around the world, sports, media, business, politics,

(00:22):
you name it, and figure out how they ended up
where they are now and some of the wins and
losses they had along the way. Excited to be joined
this week by Colorado men's football coach I shouldn't have
to say men, but Colorado football coach Mel Tucker, who
has uh really done uh pretty well in year one
with the Colorado football program so far. Uh. And we're

(00:46):
gonna bring him in and figure out how he got
to where he is today. But first, Coach Tucker, appreciate
you joining us. My man Clay Man. Thanks thanks for
having me on. I really appreciate it. Alright, So, uh,
first question for you, and we're going to get into
a lot of other things, but when you go to
work for Nick Saban, I believe as a graduate assistant

(01:07):
in your very first I think this is your first
football job coming out of Wisconsin, where you had played,
uh undergrad? How many hours a week are you working?
Because I like to start off with questions like that,
because there are a lot of people out there eighteen
twenty two graduating from college who listened to this this program,
and my big argument is you've got to start off

(01:29):
at the bottom somewhere, and you also got to work
a lot of hours. And I can only imagine what
it's like to be a g A for Nick Saban
back in the day. So how did that happen? And
what was that? Like? Yeah, that's a good question. I uh, Coachban,
I'm from Cleveland on how Um my dad played at
the the University of Toledo football and baseball. He's keeps

(01:52):
in the Hall of Fame there. I came from school
one day, Ums senior, I picked the phone ring, I
picked it up and uh and he said, this is
Nick Saban from the Houston Oilers. I'm like, Houston Oilers,
what you know? I know, I'm pretty decent player, but
I'm not ready for the league yet. And he says
he's I just I just uh became the head coach

(02:14):
at the University of Toledo where your dad played, and
you're my top recruit and said, that's how I got
to know Nick and coach Saban, and ultimately I end
up I ended up going to Wisconsin, but I got
to know Nick through the recruiting process. And so when
I decided to get into coaching, I called that I
wanted to get into coaching. I called the coach Saban.

(02:34):
He was at Michigan State at the time, and um
and uh. He said that he had a g A
spot open, a graduate assistant spot open, and he basically
hired me over the phone. He remembered me and um,
and So I went to work for Nick in ninety seven.
And my approach then was I was going to try
to get done in one in one year what it

(02:57):
took a normal person three years ado And so I
figured that I only needed about four hours of sleep
to be able to function. So that's and used to
be able to get a federal from g n C
back in the day. And so I would what I
would do was I would say how much sleep do
I need? Um, and then the rest of the time

(03:18):
I would I would just work. So I would work,
you know, nineteen nineteen twenty hours a day. So this
is crazy to me, Like the grind on that. So
when you're in school at Wisconsin, how many hours a
day are you sleeping as a normal college student who's
playing college football. Yeah, I mean I think, uh, I

(03:39):
think you're probably sleeping between six and eight hours a night,
you know, depending on the day of the week. So
you're not one of these guys naturally who can just
like so you basically said I am going to do
whatever I can to to kill it at this job,
and you just basically put yourself through almost like boot camp, right,
You're just like I'm gonna I you thought you could

(04:01):
get by on four hours a day? Was it possible? Yeah?
I got most of the week I could do that,
and then I would I would crash uh some some days. Um,
But there were some days, like the day after the
like the day of a game, when we had to
break down tape and get the scouting report ready the
next day for the coaching staff. I just wouldn't go

(04:21):
to sleep at all. And I usually slept a lot
of a lot of nights. I just slept in the
office in the in the g A office. I would
take a towel out of the out the locker room.
I would roll it up and I would sleep under
my desk. How much are you getting paid to be
a g A at the time, I was. I made
four hundred bucks a month for two years, for two

(04:43):
seasons approximately. That is, So, how do you live on that?
You don't? Yeah, you don't live on that. Uh? I
actually uh, because I took out loans. Uh because I
actually had a car and so so I had to
make my car payment. Where did you live? I lived?

(05:04):
I lived in a in a in a kind of
like a little uh apartment type of deal. Uh, like
a kind of like a town home type deal with
maybe two or three other Uh. There were a couple
of athletic trainers that were gradual assistance. They needed a roommate,
and so I lived in one of in one of

(05:25):
those rooms. And uh, I wasn't there very much, but
I did. I did. I wasn't homeless. I had I
did have a play. But I mean, that's crazy that
when you think about it now, because you're the head
coach at Colorado, when you think about it now, is
it wild to you that you would get a you
would make a pillow out of, you know, out of
a towel and sleep underneath your desk like when you

(05:48):
when you go back and you look at that, now, Uh,
does it seem crazy or is that just how bad
you wanted it that you would be willing to do that,
not just for you know, a week or two weeks
or something, but set a time. Yeah. It Uh, I
looked back on it, It doesn't seem that crazy to me, um,
because you know it was really um. You know, the

(06:10):
the other graduate assistance with me that that that first
year was uh, Brian Polian was one. Chuck Butler was
the other one. Uh and uh and then Ted Eleson
who works for Exos with the video deal now and uh,
and then Brian Dable came in the next year. So

(06:31):
it was it was competitive, you know because back in
the back in the day, you know, you didn't have
all these analysts and quality control people. You had two
g as and he had too on the field and
too off the field. Uh so too on the east
side of the ball. And so I started as an
off the field GEA. I was not allowed to go
on the fielding coach. I was working also in the

(06:52):
weight room. I was part of the video department. I
was checking classes and just really kind of inside breaking
down tape and doing whatever I needed to do, and
I needed to earn my spot on the field with
coach saman So Um, in my mind, I had to
do whatever I had to do to impressed the coaching

(07:15):
staff so that they would make the next season, the
second season today would let me go on the field.
How how tough of a boss was Nick Saban for
a year old guy. How tough of a job was that?
You know? It was? It was interesting because for for me,
it was not that it was not tough for me, Um,

(07:37):
because I knew Nick and when I was in high school.
I knew Coach Saban in high school and UM, and
I had always had really really tough coaches in in
in high school, and I had a really tough coach.
I had tough coaches in college like I was in
Coach i Ris first recruiting class at Wisconsin and so UM,

(07:58):
you know, we had you know, Bill Callahan and Brad Children's,
you know, John Palermo, Jay Norvell. You know, those were
my coaches and U in college. And so I was
pretty used to the to that mentality and that type
of grind, and UM coach Saban Um really took a

(08:19):
special interest in me and even though he was he
was a confront and demand guy, like if you do something,
if you do something wrong, He's gonna confront you right
there in front of everybody. Doesn't matter when it is.
It could be in the hallway, it could be on
the field, but he would he would always explain why
he what he wanted and why he wanted it that way.
And I really appreciated that because I felt like if

(08:42):
I just if I just knew what he wanted, that
I could I could I could get that done for him.
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What do you attribute your toughness too? Because I think
a lot of people listening to us right now we're
talking to Melt Tucker, Colorado men's football coach. I don't

(10:32):
know why I keep saying, man, but we're talking to
melt Tucker. When you when you break that down, I mean,
a lot of people are here, and you know you're
working nineteen twenty hours a day, sleeping underneath your desk.
That requires a certain level of toughness. You said you
had tough coaches in college, but growing up where your
parents tough on you? Where did you kind of get

(10:53):
that integrit, that discipline to be willing and or able
to put yourself through a job like that. I have
great parents. I have two two younger brothers, were all
eight years apart, and uh, but you know I was
the only child for eight years and and uh you
know my dad, um, you know, he raised me as

(11:13):
a as an athlete. My mom was was was really
only about academics and art season artist. But my my
dad even um, even as a young I was always
he played sand lot baseball, you know, for for many years.
You know, he would work during the day and in
the evenings he would play like triple A sand lot baseball.

(11:35):
And I was always like the bat boy. And so
I got a chance to see him, uh, you know,
play through pain and you know, and he would have
strawberries on his hips from from sliding into the second
base or whatever. And and I was always around all
these all these these older guys that some of these
guys were trying to still make it in pro baseball.

(11:56):
He was just really playing at that time for the
love of the game. And my dad would always tell
me stories about football when he played for Frank Laudiborg
at Toledo UM. And he would always talk to me
about toughness and and uh. And you know, he was
my first uh coach in little league baseball UM. And uh.

(12:16):
You know, I was one of the few guys that
could they could play every position. And and I would
catch for him. And even though I would have a
spring thumb, you know, he would say, he would say,
Rock my nickname is Rocky, Say Rock, Man, I need
you to catch for me today. And uh. And so
I would go in there and I would care every
time that ball would come in there. Man, it would
just I wanted to throw my glove across over the fence,
you know. But he just was always talking to me about,

(12:39):
you know, old school football. And you know, I'm from Ohio.
You know, football's huge to Cleveland Browns. Um it's a
big you know, Ohio State. You know, it was just
the whole culture of you know, midwest Cleveland, Ohio. You know,
you know, freezing weather, you know, playing out, playing out

(12:59):
in the street. We used to play back in the day,
you know, we used to play street ball, you know,
with no pads, you know, just one one street versus
the next, one, neighborhood versus the next. And in my
first eight years we lived in the city, UM when
it was before the Cleveland Clinic came in and uh
kind of revamped that area and so it was it

(13:23):
was a little rough you know down there, um as well,
and so UM, you know, it's just it was just
kind of a it was just a culture and environment
of you know, just hard nosed, hard work. UM. You know. Uh,
my dad would always ask me UM. And my dad's
the nicest guy in the world. I mean, I love

(13:45):
him to death, and he was like a great He's
a great person, a great he was a great coach
for me younger. But he would all always ask me,
are you hurt or are you injured? And so that's
kind of how I evaluate everything. And I think that
UM kind of laid the foundation for me to be
able to UM to be able to uh, you know,

(14:06):
persevere through you know middle school, uh, you know, high
school and college. Just um and being around really tough
coaches and coaching you know, back in the day was well,
I think it was a little bit different than it
is now. You know. Um, it was it was just
there wasn't a lot of load management. No, no, there

(14:27):
was there there was there was none of that. I
can remember actually, Uh, because my my dad had a
friend who played at Michigan and he worked for the
he worked for the gas company. He would he would
read meters, but he also trained kids on the side.
That was his hobby. And he kind of picked me
up and started training me when I was in high school.
So we would practicing fall in in the in the fall.

(14:49):
We would do two of days and then I would
do a third with him afterwards. I did that for
about two seasons. So, um, I'm just kind of used
to it. Did you want to go you end up
at Wisconsin? Uh? And you said that Nick Saban called
when he got the Toledo job and he was trying
to recruit you. Did you want to go to Ohio state?
Did you want to stay in the state of Ohio?
How did you end up at Wisconsin. Yeah, I wanted

(15:12):
to go to ohiuse State, like in the worst way.
That was like that was like my dream. I said
basketball also, and then once I realized I wasn't going
to be a big time basketball player, I decided to
really just hone in on football and I really wanted
to go to a house state. UM. I think maybe
that year they they took Tim Walton, who was a
good who was a good friend of mine. He coaches

(15:33):
in the NFL. Now there was another another defensive back
they took, and um, they basically you know, turned me down.
And so, UM, I was how tough? How tough was
that for you as a kid growing up in Ohio
wanting to go to Ohio State not to get that option. Um,
it was, it was, it was. It was tough, but

(15:55):
you know it was it was the reality. I mean,
you know, I knew that, Um, I was going to
have other opportunities. Um, and uh it just uh you know,
I was. I was really grateful to have the opportunity
to have a scholarship because I knew that my parents
couldn't afford to pay for my school, you know, so, UM,
you know, I initially I was committed to the Air

(16:17):
Force Academy with I was a Wishbone quarterback. Um for
we ran the exact same offense that Air Force ran.
I was watching Air Force film. My coach had me
watching Air Force film since month since I was the
eighth grader. Um and uh, and I was committed there
and and and I was gonna do that. And then

(16:37):
coach Coach Ares got the job at at Wisconsin. He
left Notre Dame. I think they won the national the
national championship. He gets the Wisconsin job, and um, you know,
Chuck Heater was recruiting me and Notre Dame also because
they were you know, they had Tony Rice. They were
running some Wishbone stuff. Um, and they were running some

(16:58):
kind of some options stuff. And and uh. He called
me one day. He called me one day after coach
I got the job, and I thought he was calling
me to to bring me in on the offer, to
bring me on a on a visit, to offer me
because he would stayed in touch with me. He says,
I think that there might be a shot for me
for you to come to Notre Dame. And he called
me said, listen, mel He's I can't take you here.

(17:20):
At Notre Dame. But um, Barry Avres just got the
job at Wisconsin and you should take a look. And well,
I'm gonna have them call you. And I said, okay.
And then so Russ Jake's who called me from Wisconsin,
had just been hurt as the offensive coordinator here recruited
a friend of my name, Chip Morris, to the Northwestern

(17:41):
a few years earlier, so I knew Coach Jakes. He's
also a Cleveland guy, a Westside guy. And he called
me and said, mel um, um, we just got here
to Wisconsin. I know that coach coach heater uh says
a lot of good things about you. You know me
from when I recruited Ship Morris. We want you to
come come take a look. And I said, He said,

(18:03):
I know you're committed to air Force, but we want
you to come take a look. I'd already used all
my five visits, so my dad's friend paid Um, my
dad's friend paid for my my travel too up to Wisconsin.
I went there on on basically an unofficial because I
used all my visits and and I fell in love

(18:23):
with the place and it and it really it gave me.
It gave me an opportunity to UH to play, to
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I want to go to that in a sect. But
I want to go back to and we're talking to
Mail Tucker, Colorado football coach. I want to go back
to the Air Force so you are committed to go

(20:54):
to Air Force, you obviously have to be a good student,
You have to have great red, great resume, good referrals,
all of those things. Do you ever wonder what your
life would have become if you had gone to Air
Force instead of Wisconsin? I do. I do. I think
about that quite a bit. UM. And as a matter

(21:15):
of fact, when I got when I got here to
voter Um, we had a fundraiser down in Denver and
it was you know, coach Fisher de Barry was was
a big part of that fundraiser. And so he and
I actually got a chance to talk about that a
little bit. And uh, because we kind of stayed in
touch over the years and UH, and it was one
of those deals where you know, my mom wanted me

(21:37):
to go to Air Force because of the education, and
my my dad wanted me to play in the Big
Ten and UM, and I really and and I remember
saying that, you know that if I couldn't play at
Ohio State, UM, then you know, maybe I should just

(21:58):
go to Wisconsin and and do that. But I do
think about, UM, you know, the military commitment, you know
the service commitment. You know, after UM being in the
academy that I I think it was five years that
I would have committed, and so it was things what

(22:18):
things would probably have been a lot a lot different
from me. Yeah, And I'm curious when you go to
Air Force and you commit, have you flown it? Like?
Do they put you in a fighter jet? I mean,
how do you know that you want to be potentially
in the air Force? I mean, I know everybody doesn't
fly airplanes, but do you have I mean, do you
have any conception for that? Like? How did you pick

(22:40):
Air Force over say, Army or Navy? Was it this
idea of hey, I'd like to be a pilot one day,
How how do you pick it? Obviously football factors in,
but how do you pick that service academy over the others? No,
it was it was really football driven for me because
they run that same offense that you were running already.
I guess yes. And Sammy stein Mark was recruited UM

(23:03):
Cleveland and he recruited me since I was a freshman
in high school, and so I knew I knew Sammy
UM and uh and and so that was and and
and so that was always kind of in my in
my mind about you know, going to Air Force and
running the Wishbone. And then as I got as I
got older, and I started to take and then I

(23:24):
started to take visits. You know, I fell in love
with the place. You know, I flew in. I had
never seen the mountains. Um. It was just a really
different experience for me. Um. And I knew that I could.
I knew that I could do it. I knew that
it would be really hard, but I knew that I
could do it. They did put me in a in
a in a jet while I was there. It was

(23:46):
it was awesome. It was great, you know, and they
had just kind of shut down to the the tourists
that to Neat at that stace, I didn't get a
chance to go there. Um, but I was just kind
of fascinated with the whole the whole thing. But I
had had a at a personal relationship with Coach was
coach with Coach stein Mark. I mean I knew him,
like I know, I knew him for like four years

(24:08):
and so UM, I was very comfortable with him. And
you know, he would always tell me about how um,
if you know, you if you can graduate from the
Air Force Academy, you know you'll be set for life.
And I had heard that from him so many times,
and that was important to me into and to my
to my family. UM, did I get an education that

(24:30):
I would be able to be, um, you know, be
successful in life after football. So you know that appealed
to me. And I remember when I came back from
my Wisconsin trip, um, and I think it was a
monday I went to school. When I came back from school. Um,
on that monday, UM, coach coach stein Mark was sitting

(24:51):
in my in my living room with my mom. My
mom was in tears, you know, so UM. And and
then I got in coaching and Coach Stin Mark was
still coaching, you know at the time obviously, and so
you know, he and I have that you know, remain
you know, friends for for many many years. So I
want to go back to that moment. So you come

(25:12):
back after the Wisconsin visit, this coach that you developed
a great relationship with is in your house. Your mom
is crying over the fact that she wants you to
go to Air Force. It's hard to say no. People
talk a lot about saying yes. It's also hard to
say no. Particularly I think about this a lot. When
you're a sixteen seventeen eighteen year old kid, and now

(25:32):
you're in the business of recruiting those kids, so you've
actually been through this yourself. How difficult was it to
say no to Air Force not say yes to Wisconsin?
Because a lot of times, when you say yes, it's easy,
it feels good, you're making somebody happy. Saying yes is easy,
saying no is hard. How did you have the strength

(25:52):
there with your mom crying, with that situation. It's a
lot of pressure on a young kid. How did you
know that was Hnson was the right call? And how
did you have the strength to say no? Yeah, it
was very difficult for me. I had. I had a
really tough time with it because I actually I loved
coach stein Mark. I mean he was like he was

(26:15):
like my guy, like I like, I really really like
I had a lot of respect for him. And you know,
my mom was all about education. All she wanted me
to do was, you know, get get a degree and
be happy. She I don't think she really cared too
much about about football, you know, so um, you know,
but you know again, you know, I was I was

(26:36):
an only child for like eight years, and so you know,
when you're an only child, you know, you spent a
lot of time alone, uh and just kind of you know,
taking things in and you know, and just kind of
making you know, I just spent a lot of time
with myself, and and I knew, um that I had
to do I had to follow my gut and my

(26:57):
instinct and and kind of do what I want to do,
because you know, I was the one that was going
to have to do it. And and uh, and I
knew that my and I knew that, you know, that
Wisconsin was a great academic institution also, and I knew
at the end of the day, as long as I graduated,
my mom would be okay with it. And so um,

(27:19):
you know, I just you know, I just um, you know,
I just want my dad, my dad. I kind of
knew that my dad wanted me. I'm a daddy's boy,
you know at the time, And so I kind of
knew that my dad wanted me to to play in
the big team if I could, you know. And and
I did also, um, and and then you know, coach Alvarez,

(27:43):
you know, I really hit it off with him. You know,
he's a he's a man's man. You know, he just
had a lot of charisma he had, you know, he
just you know, he was a defensive guy. And you
know Russ Jake's I had known him from when he
recruited Chip Morrison Northwestern. So I had connections there. And
Donna Celila was the was the chancellor at the time
at Wisconsin and she, um, you know she's from she

(28:06):
was from Cleveland, and she was involved in my recruitment
um there, and so um, so I had some I
had some some connections um there actually you know kind
of had maybe ultimately more connection uh to Wisconsin than
than Air Force, um ultimately. And then you know one

(28:26):
of my dad, the guy one of the coaches who
recruited my dad to Toledo, his name was Mario Russo.
He was in the athletic department retired but in the
athletic department retired retired from coaching, but in the athletic
department at Wisconsin at that time. And so, um, my
dad felt like there were there were people there that

(28:47):
would look out for me if I went to Wisconsin,
and so, um, I just had to go with my
gut and um it was a really tough decision, but
UM I tried. When I once I made that decision,
I try to not not to look back. You said
your mom was an artist or is an artist. What
what kind of art does she do? She paints? She paints, Um,

(29:10):
she does uh she she um. She also um, she soulds.
So she did costumes for for plays. Is she still
in Cleveland today? Yeah, my parents are in Cleveland there
in Cleveland Heights. Um, my my middle brother is in
my dinah on how where I live when I coached
for the Browns. And then my my youngest brothers is

(29:32):
out in l a um trying to make it. He's
like a photographer, hip hop blogger, uh, talent manager. You know,
he's kind of he's kind of doing his thing out there.
He's got he does a little bit of everything. Yeah,
it does a little bit of everything. He actually comes
comes here to the c U games and gets um

(29:56):
and he gets they hired him sometimes when he gets
a press class and he uh he shoes photos for
our games here sometimes. Be sure to catch live editions
of out Kicked the Coverage with Clay Travis week days
at six am Eastern three am Pacific. Adoption of teams
from foster care is a topic not enough people know about,

(30:16):
and we're here to change that. I'm April Denuit, the
host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt
Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption
stories told by the families that lived them, with commentary
from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org, slash podcast,
or subscribed to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids,

(30:37):
brought to you by the U. S Department of Health
and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, and the
ACT Council. So we're talking to Mel Tucker, Colorado football coach.
All right, you go to Wisconsin. Ohio is cold. Cleveland
can be cold. My understanding is it probably ain't like
Wisconsin cold. Were you homesick? You get up there and

(30:59):
and your first year, do you ever question the decision
that you made? Well? I did? I did. I was.
I was very homesick. I was. I was eight hours
away in the car and um and I wasn't able
to get I wasn't able to get home very much
at all. My parents, my dad was not able to come,

(31:19):
was not able to come see me play often. Um
and my dad rarely missed any game that I played
growing up. So that was a lot different for me
and um, you know, we struggled our first year we
were one and ten. You know, I was been moved
to defensive back. You know, I played both ways. I
played defensive back in high school also, Um. But you know,

(31:41):
I spent maybe one day at quarterback and then they
moved me to corner. Um. And it was just uh,
and I wasn't you know, I wasn't really playing a lot,
and it was just it was just a totally different,
um deal from high school. You know, from high school
for me, and I struggled. You know, I was I
was always one of the you know, one of the
best players. Um. And uh, when I got to Wisconsin,

(32:04):
it was just a kind of a reality check for me. Um.
And it was a little bit of a culture shock
as well. Um. The code didn't bother me because I
was used to the code. It was just uh, you know,
you know, my freshmanor we were we were sitting and
we were sitting the dorms, you know, my roommates and
some of the freshmen, we were sitting in the dorms

(32:24):
and over the winter and saying, man, how the heck
did they trick us into coming up here? You know,
you know, and there was. There was several times when
I when I when I you know, I would call
home and um, you know, I was I would tell him.
I would tell my my parents that I wanted to
to that I should have gone the Air Force and

(32:47):
be and be a quarterback, you know, just an option quarterback.
And so mom, you know, of course, you know, your
mom wants you to be happy. So she's like, well
maybe you can, maybe you can leave. And my Dad's like, no,
it's too late. You gotta you gotta take it out,
you know, and then it's going to work out. So
I went through that, and that really helps me, you know,
dealing with you know, to help the players that off

(33:07):
coast over the last twenty three years. It helps me, um,
you know, trying to relate to them as well when
that happens. Yeah. Again, we've got a lot of college
kids or young people who listen to this and and
I think that that homesickness is so underrated and undertalked about.
If you go very far away, you know, if you're
somewhere where you can't get in a car or your

(33:28):
parents can't get to you easily. And I know technology
has changed a little bit, but I was so homesick
my firstman year in Washington, d C. Like, right, I was,
I was like, I missed, I missed home so much.
And I think that gets underrated. And I'm sure, uh,
you know, a lot of that is a cultural fit,
you know, and ending up at a city school when

(33:48):
you're a young kid, but also for you now having
been a player, but also coaching, you're bringing guys in
who oftentimes are coming in and they have the responsibilities
not just of academically trying to stay on top of things,
but you're dealing with just a huge cultural change in
your life, right, And it's a kind of an overwhelming
moment for a lot of people regular freshman as well,

(34:09):
but I think even more so for athletes. Yeah, it's uh,
you know, it was. It was a it was a
difficult transition, um, not just on the football side of it.
But you know, so when we we moved when I
was eight, we moved from the city to University of Heights, Ohio,
and I went to Cleveland Heights High School. So that
was a it was a the foundation of that that

(34:30):
community was it was a Jewish community, um and so
it was it was a mixed deal, um and um
my high school was was was very very diverse, um
and so you know, but Wisconsin was not as diverse
and um, and so that was and then you know,

(34:51):
I would go in I went, I would go into
like lecture halls. Um, you know, as a freshman. You know,
you got you know, whatever one on one or psych
one on one. Are you going there? And you know
there's three people in there, you know, and there's you know,
maybe two or three football players. We're sitting in the back,
you know, and like we're the only ones in there
to look like us, you know, kind of like what
you know, this is? What's this? And you know, um,

(35:16):
you feel like people are just staring at you. You
know now whether they were they weren't, and they probably weren't,
but you kind of feel like that, you know. So
that was part of it. And you know, um, there
was we didn't have you know, my my dad worked.
My dad worked full time and so I didn't really
qualify for like pel grant and stuff like that. But

(35:41):
but I didn't have I didn't have money. I didn't
have like any disposable you know money. And there was
no cost of attendance back then like there is now,
you know, so um it was you know, it was
room board tuition fees. Uh, that was it. You know.
So I'm pretty I'm up there at Wisconsin and like

(36:02):
I have like no money, literally no money in your
pocket or your wall. Yeah nothing, you know. So uh
that was no really no no real way to get home, um,
you know, or or for my parents to get up
get up there often. So um, that was that was
that was a that was a little bit of a transition.

(36:22):
Now the good news is that I wasn't the only
one on the team like that, you know. And so um,
you know my you know, my roommates, uh, you know
over the years, you know, Carlos Fowler, Brent Moss, Terrell Fletcher,
Lamark Shackelford, you know, Mike London, you know J C. Dawkins,

(36:42):
you know all those guys. Um, you know, we became
very very close. And that's kind of you know, how
we made it through. And and uh j C and
and um j C And and Brent Moss were from Racine,
Wisconsin and Shock was from Gary, Indiana. So when we
had time to go, like we had like a long
weekend or we had a couple of days, you know,

(37:03):
I would I spend a lot of time in racing
Wisconsin or in Gary, Indiana, which it was Gary, Indianna
looked a lot more when I was used to, you know,
and so that that that helped quite a bit. So
I know there's all that to talk about paying players
and everything else, and and I'm a capitalist, so I
think people should be able to get compensated for their

(37:24):
for their talents. But on a basic level, doesn't it
seem like in a situation such as yours, that part
of the scholarship should include money, for instance, for your
parents to be able to travel to see you play
at Wisconsin. Uh And when you look at how much
some of these programs are making, doesn't it seem like
to you for parents, grandma and grandpa, family members like that,

(37:46):
there should almost be a stipend portion of those. I mean,
wouldn't you like to be able to go out to
a recruit and say, hey, I understand that you live
in l A. For example, right you're in getting Boulder,
that that is not a huge trip. But if you
don't have very much money, that is a huge trip. Right,
So if you're recruiting against that C or U C
l A. And there's a kid there and he's like, man,
I want my mom to be able to watch me

(38:07):
play every game. Wouldn't that be Doesn't that seem like
it should be possibly out there that you could get
stipends for family members to be able to come and
see you play. When you look at how much revenue
these schools are bringing in, I think that would you know,
I think that would really help. You know, um uh,
you know, I don't know if that's possible, but you know,
I always when I'm recruiting players, and I'm recruiting players

(38:29):
from a distance, one of the questions I asked is,
you know, how long have you been playing football? And
and uh who who? Who has come to your games?
You know? And oftentimes uh a young man to tell
me that, you know, my my mom, my grandmother have
never missed a game. I've been playing since I was
eight years old, and they've been in every single game

(38:50):
every time, you know, or my dad has never missed
a game, or you know, I hear that and so um.
And that's part of the recruiting process, and that's one
of the of the challenges because sometimes I know that
you know, those uh that the parents or the grandma
wherever you know, they're not gonna They're not gonna be

(39:12):
They're not gonna be able to see your play every
and they're not gonna be able to see you playing
person is not just gonna be possible. So I have
to deal with that. When you are at Wisconsin, you
mentioned that the first year, like, in addition to the
cultural challenges of being at Wisconsin, football is a lot
better and you suddenly maybe aren't the best player on
the field or even close to it. Uh when did

(39:34):
you start to feel like, hey, I can play here?
And did not being the best player maybe make you
more aware of some of the intricacies of the game
that have helped you as a coach, Because it seems
to me that guys who are supremely talented don't oftentimes
make great coaches because they get so frustrated because they

(39:54):
can't make the players do what they were able to do,
whereas the guys who have to be on the margins,
on the edges and kind of work on the intricacies
of the game sometimes are better at teaching it. Do
you think that in your own playing experience has helped you? Yeah?
It did. Um, you know, I made my my my
first I had a I had an injury. Played career

(40:16):
at Wisconsin. It seemed like I was it was I
was always like banged up. There was always something wrong
with me. But I made my first start like as
a sophomore against Ohio State in Columbus, and I was
out there with like Troy Vincent, who was one of
my great friends. Um, and so I knew now was
the head of the NFL p A writer or a

(40:38):
VP of the NFL p A. Yeah, he's he's actually,
you know, he was. He was doing some things with
the league and then he and he was trying to
when the the Morris Smith deal and that was kind
of going down. He was in the running for that,
and then he went to work for the NFL and
he was kind of doing some of their player programs.
He was the head of that, and then he has

(40:59):
recently been elegant at it and and he works, uh,
you know, right alongside Roger Goodell. Now and you know,
after the first days of the draft, he's the guy
that announces the name. Okay, my bad. Yeah, he's on
the NFL side. But he's very highly highly ranked in
the NFL. Yeah, very very highly ranked. And uh so
you know I knew, I knew I could play, um,

(41:21):
you know, but being you know, being a backup or
you know, a part time player of special teams guy,
you know, kind of a rotational guy. You know, you
don't always get reps with the ones, you know, so
you gotta you have to, uh, you know, you have
to still know the game plan without getting the reps.
And then you know, he had to kind of really
really pay attention. So, you know, I had some really

(41:43):
good coaches, position coaches like Paul Jet and the the
late Tomic Man guy, rest of the soul I had
who had really good coaches and they were really technical.
And then I really I knew, like these guys really
know what they're doing. UM. Coach al Riz was a
great defense with which I will watch those guys. I
was always a left wing on the punt team for

(42:04):
Bill Callahanson. He he became a mentor of mine, guy
that I loved. And so I had really good coaches
at Wisconsin. So I so I was able to, uh
to learn like how to coach playing but playing for
those guys because they were like fundamentally sound like great
technical teachers. UM, and I just really really paid attention. UM.

(42:26):
I didn't know that I wanted to be a coach,
but UM, I learned. I learned a lot, a lot
from those guys. And then you know, you mentioned, we mentioned,
I mentioned Troy Vincent and what he's doing now. But
it's amazing. You know the guys that were on that team,
you know my teammates and friends of mine. Chris Ballard,
the GM for the coach, was a teammate of mine.

(42:47):
There we've been great friends. Uh. Tyl Orlando is the
defensive coordinator at Texas. It was a teammate of mine. Wisconsin,
UM Darryl Bevil offensive coordinator, form the office coordinator at
Seattle and UM great coach in the league. He was
our quarterback. UM. Joe Rudolph, I believe office the coordinator

(43:09):
at Wisconsin now was he and I, you know, took
took recruiting trips together in high school. You know, because
he's from Pennsylvania. We go, we end up on some
of the same trips. You know, Door Sharp was commissioner
the swack. UM was was there. So it's amazing how
many guys on how many guys on that team, UM
are still in football now doing some doing some pretty

(43:32):
significant things. So when you become a g A at
Michigan State for UH, for Nick Saban back in the day,
did you know immediately then coaching is for me? Or
was it just something that you did to test out?
How quickly did you know this is maybe the job
that I'm going to pursue. Yeah. I had kind of
been away from ball for you know, a couple of years,

(43:53):
because I graduated in May and this was seven when
I started. So what did you do? What did you
What did you do from May until you started this
g A? I? Uh? I volunteered at my high school, UM,
coaching like basketball and and football, you know, UM, just
helping out UH and then out did some substitute teaching. UM.

(44:16):
And so like a lot of people who graduate from college,
you're trying to figure out what you want to do
with your career. Pat, do you move back in with
mom and dad? Yeah? I moved back in and you know,
and I was actually still trying to play, yeah, you know,
because I had signed with the Hamleton tiger Cats, you know,
come out of Wisconsin and in UH. In the transition
from Wisconsin to report as the training camp, I went

(44:40):
home for a couple of days and my youngest brother, Jordan,
had the chicken pox and I contracted it. I didn't
know that until I got there. So I got to
Hamilton's and I got really, really sick, um and I
almost almost died from the parking. So I got they
sent me home. They said, you know, we gotta send
you home and then after you get what we'll bring,
we'll bring you back. But by the time I got

(45:02):
over that, that chicken pocket deal had a you know,
because I was a little bit older, I think it's
a little bit more severe when you're that's crazy. So
but you said you almost died. I mean I went
down to I mean I was a hundred and nineties,
I was two hundred pounds. Man, I think I went
down to maybe a hundred and sixty five pounds. So
did you have to get hospitalized from chicken pox? And
they put me on some some type of maths and

(45:23):
I think I had an allergic reaction to it, and um,
you know, so I didn't you know, I didn't sleep
for maybe you know, three or four days. I couldn't eat, um,
you know, it was it just kind of kind of
wiped me out. And then you know, I thought that
I was I thought I was something was I didn't
think I was gonna make it. And then and then

(45:43):
they changed my medication and I got better, but I
was kind of I felt like I was kind of
on the brink, you know. Um, and and so I
never really you know, so I wanted to try to,
you know, build myself back up and play again, and
and I had a couple of workouts, but I just
never could really get back to the point. I never
wanted to be one of those guys that was always

(46:04):
trying out and bouncing around and trying out, trying out.
So I just I just gave it up. And I
just I said, I just gotta figure I gotta figure
out what I'm gonna do. And so I kind of
went back to my high school and uh, and I
you know, I kind of volunteered coaching and then and
I kind of liked it, and um, and that's kind
of how I just when I decided I was gonna
I was gonna, um, you know, try to the college

(46:26):
the college ranks, and I'm talking about we talked about
the culture shock to Wisconsin. What's the culture shock like?
Going to l s U, l s u U, l
SU was like I got down there. I'm like, man,
do I need a passport to be here or what
it is? Yeah, it was so much different, you know,

(46:46):
and uh, it was like almost being like in a
different country. But I absolutely loved it. Um. I gave
the food is I gained fifteen pounds down there and
I haven't been able to lose that that last I mean,
just just a culture of the food and uh, and
the football was kind of what I was used to,

(47:08):
you know, they were just it was it was just
a really intense um but it was it's a different
field down there. It's, uh, they want to win so bad.
It's almost feels like it's almost kind of dangerous down there.
You know. Um. I remember coming out of my out
of my office like after work on Thursday, and they
would already be tailgating out in the park lot on Thursday,

(47:31):
and people would just come up to you right away.
Like when I first got there, they said, hey, Mal,
nice to meet you. You guys know, if you don't win,
you're out of here. I mean that was this common,
you know, that's just how it was. And so I mean,
you know, Tiger Stadium on a Saturday night. Bro let
me tell you it's something else. So UM, I liked it.
I went to Mardy Grad, went went down there on

(47:52):
Fat Tuesday. I took that all in um, but it
was it was quite an experience. So you've coached in
the NFL and in college, and you've been a head
coach as an interim in the NFL and in college.
Which do you like more? And why I like them both? Um?
Um for different reasons. UM. You know the NFL. I

(48:15):
went to the NFL because I was trying to follow
coach Savans kind of his career path. You know, he
was a college coach. He went to the NFL UM
and he told me, you know early on that you're
gonna have to go to the NFL UM at some point,
you know, to really you know, learn ball some more
ball and becoming a better coach. And so that's why
I went. I went to Cleveland Browns and I wanted

(48:36):
to learn the Bill Belichick three four from Romeo Romeo Cornell.
I did that, and I really love coaching. Coaching in
the NFL. It was like, uh, it was like getting
a pH d. All you do twenty four hours a day,
it's all it's just all ball, um and just coaching.
You know, coaching the pro pro players. UM, you know,
guys are making you know a lot more money than

(48:58):
you and uh and so that was that was a challenge,
and I really loved it and I became you know,
I felt like I was successful doing that. UM. But
there's a you know, coaching college is a little a
little bit different. UM. You know, you you know these guys,
you know, like some of these guys I recruited when
they were sophomores freshman in high school, like Tagaan Jr.

(49:20):
You know, I've known Teddy since he was like eleven
years old. Uh, Dante Wittner, Troy Smith, you know, Heisman
Trophy guys. I mean I recruited Troy when he was
at saying As before he transferred to Glenville, before we
got invut Ohio States. So you just have those connections
with the high school coaches and the families and the
and the and the kids. UM. And then you bring

(49:40):
them to to UM to college and you're responsible for him.
You're almost like you're almost like a kind of like
a parent away from home. UM, and your your role
model and they need you. Um and so UM that's
like a huge responsibility. But I really enjoyed that part
of it and UH in this and seeing you know,

(50:02):
helping helping guys UH like work towards a degree and
develop them on the field. UM was very gratified to me.
And that's why I decided to come back to the
cost game in two thousand and fifteen at ALABAMAO coach Saban.
So you've coached with coach Saban. How are Coach Saban
and Kirby Smart, who you've also coached with, different? Because

(50:22):
there's a lot of people who say, Okay, Kirby Smarts
doing at Georgia what Nick Saban did at Alabama recruiting
at a high level defensive First guy, you've worked with
both of them. How are they similar? How are they different? Um?
You know the the and I think a lot of
you know, if when you work for Nick, you know
that long UM I worked for them three times. You

(50:44):
know there's you know, other guys that have been kind
of saving guys UM or Belichick guys. You know you
kind of use this very similar blueprint because you know it,
you know it worked successful, and so UM in those
in that way. You know at Georgia, UM, you know
we had a very similar blueprint for success. Very similar process. Um,

(51:10):
but they're they're they're totally different people, you know. Um
and Uh, they're both you know, great coaches, very intense,
but um, you know, everyone is you know, everyone's just
so different. Everyone's got their own style of coaching, you know. Um.
And I think Kirby does a great job of like
just not trying to be Nick and just being himself. UM.

(51:32):
And that's you know, that's what I try to do.
You know, I'm not trying to be anyone else. Um.
And uh, you know Nick Saban is, Uh, you really
can't even compare him to anyone that everyone is just
so unique. Um. I've known Nick, I've known coach saman
just so long, Like like sometimes I feel like he
would he could start a sentence and I can finish it,

(51:53):
you know. So Um. But you know it's very similar structure,
you know, in the programs, um, but totally different personalities.
What's the happiest you've ever been on a football field
as a coach or player? Um Man, that's a good question.

(52:16):
You know, this may this may sound distant, generous, but
you know I told my I told my players after this,
after the Stanford game, that we just had that we
won like sixteen thirteen. You know, it was a walk
off field goal. That we had lost five games in
a row, you know, and uh, we had some gut

(52:37):
ritching losses. And you know, I told those I told
those guys, I say, guys, I told him in the
locker room after the game, I said, guys, I've been
in That was my three dred football games of coaching
as an assistant coach or head coach. And I have
coached three hundred games. I've got two national championship. I've
been in a lot of big games one a lot
of big games. But I told those guys, and I've
really meant that, I've never been prouder of a group

(53:00):
of guys, players and coaches. How was this past Saturday?
And I think it's because you know, I am you know,
because I am in the head coach here and I, um,
it is the first year, and it was you know,
we've had some challenges, you know, shifting the culture here. UM, learning,
you know, learning, Um, you know how to win, and

(53:24):
UM we beat a team uh A Stanford Tina is
very well coach and I got a lot of I
have a tremendous smaller respect for David Shaw. But um,
you know, we we won playing compinary football, offense, defensive,
special teams, you know, all working together. That guys were
playing for each other and we we It was a
physical football game. Um. Stanford is known for being physical

(53:46):
and fundamentally sound. We only have five penalties. We were
able to run the ball. We stopped, we stopped to
run special teams. We won the field position battle. Um.
You know we at the end of the game, our
offense we had our last two drives were over six
minutes each. We got some kids. That was the best
defensive game we played all season, holding them in the

(54:07):
thirteen points. Um. You know, we're playing a lot of
young players, and we were able to take the clock down,
called time out with two seconds running. Uh. The field
goal team out there. We had a freshman kicker, uh
and he was our backup. Our starter was was down
and he goes in there and knocks it straight through
at home on homecoming, you know, after losing five straight games.

(54:30):
So I can honestly said that was probably the most
gratifying moment of my coaching career. Alright, what about as
the most disappointing moment. What's the toughest loss. The toughest
loss uh uh even though that uh that Georgia Alabama
a couple of years ago, the nast champiship game, and

(54:52):
that was that was devastating because we I felt like
we had them. Um, that was tough. And even last
year and SEC championship game was brutal, um. But probably
the toughest loss was two thousand two. We go fourteen
and oh and we we win the national championship. We
beat Miami and the Fiesta Bowl. The very next year, um,
very next year, we're we're rolling. Um. We go to

(55:14):
Wisconsin and uh, I'm I'm coaching the secondary. Um and
uh we uh we come back. We got them beat.
It's in the rain. We're undefeated. They get to we
knocked the quarterback out. The backup quarterback goes in Brian
White office. The coordinator calls an out and up uh

(55:35):
and Chris Gamble my first round corner gets beat on,
an out and up for a touchdown. Game over and
no more National championship consideration at that point. And you know,
when you win one, you go fortuneo. You always think
you're gonna win another one, you know. And I didn't
get another one til two thousand and so I remember
the Andy Geiger, the athletic director, coming over to my locker. Um,

(56:00):
I remember those guys saying, you know, just saying like, hey, man,
just get dressed, just uh just uh, you know, let's go,
let's get out of here. And because I felt like
I was a coach, I felt like I lost that
game because I felt like I didn't have my my player,
Chris Gamble, who's a great player. First one. I think
I feel like I didn't have him prepared for for

(56:22):
the double moves. That's interesting. Uh. Now you're at Colorado,
and I know you've got a lot of interesting fans
out of Colorado. I'm a big fan of South Park,
and I understand that you've met Matt Stone and Trey Parker,
who are South Park guys but also Boulder guys right
there from Colorado. Yeah, I haven't. I haven't met them, um,

(56:44):
you know, but we've been in conversation with them, Dave
Platty here and others, trying to uh, trying to arrange
for them when they get a little less busy to
come onto my podcast. Oh that would be pretty cool,
and so I'm looking forward to doing that. Um and
uh and I didn't know that that the South Park. God,

(57:05):
I didn't know they will see you guys. I didn't
know the voter guys. You know, I didn't know. I
didn't know the origination. When I got here and uh,
you know, they started talking about soft Park like, really,
these got to see you guys. We we gotta get that.
I gotta get with these guys, you know what I mean.
So I'm really looking forward to that. Uh. And the
last couple of questions for you here, Um, what do

(57:26):
you do when you're not coaching football? I know you
you said you slept four hours a day when you
were working as a g A, so I know those
hours all factor in. But you got two young sons,
teenage boys. And I didn't even ask you, but when
did you meet your wife? And how has she balanced
out the coach's wife lifestyle. Yeah? I met my wife
in Cleveland a blind date. Um. She was in law

(57:47):
school at Rutgers at the time. Um, and this was
before I got into coaching. And who set up to
find date? Uh? My my my roommates uh shocks ex
girlfriend who was was her roommate at at Rutgers, also
in law school, set it up. They were coming to Cleveland,

(58:07):
uh for a job fair. And so you guys go
where for dinner or for a day or what did
you do? And we went down like down in the
flats down there to like I think it's called like
the firehouse where they play pool and do all that stuff. So,
so did you think immediately like this could be the one?
Or did how did that happen? Yeah, it kind of

(58:30):
happened like that. It was kind of like, uh, you know, like, uh,
I kind of asked her to marry me on the
uh that that that night? Yeah, the first date. Yeah, no, no,
no way. So you go out to and you're like
this is it and and like jokingly you said marry
me or you were like, I'm convinced this is the one. Yeah,
I wasn't. I wasn't joking. I'm kind of one of

(58:52):
those guys that you know, I don't I don't like
the wait around. I kind of once I kind of
see the direction I need to go, I'm trying to
get there as fast as I can. So what did
she say? She said, Yeah, she was like, yeah, let's go.
How did you get I'm sorry, go ahead? So how
soon did you get married? Like after you started dating. Yeah,

(59:14):
after I got my first full time job at Miami
of O how with the late Terry Haffner. That the
summer before that season, we got married in Chicago. She's
from Chicago. And you've been dating? How long we have been? Well,
we have been dating. That was that was That was
when I got that job. I think I met her
in like nineties six maybe, So it's kind of like

(59:37):
a long distance deal. Yeah. But so you are at
the time dating a potential lawyer, right, she's going to
Rutgers and you are a guy trying to work your
way up. So at that time, like you're kind of
outkicking your coverage getting a lawyer that you're married because
you're you know, just kind of becoming a coach. Now
she is married to one of the you know, one

(59:58):
of the big five coaches in a in a major conference.
So does she like look over your contract stuff as
the lawyer? Do you have her refew? Uh? No, she
doesn't represent me. Um uh maybe some of those initial contracts.
Uh yeah, you know back in the Yeah, she looked
over those. But I've I've actually got some some funks

(01:00:20):
to do that for me now. It's funny. I have
my wife do stuff for me, and she's quit like
three different times because she says, I'm an awful boss.
So it's probably good to to have other people instead
of instead of her in charge. Okay, so last question
for you. You almost ended up at air Force. You
instead go to Wisconsin. You work your way all the
way to become the head coach at Colorado. Do you

(01:00:43):
feel like in some way you finally got to the
state of Colorado where you almost went when you were
eighteen years old kid coming out of high school? And
if so, how successful can you be at Colorado? How
high can you rise? No, Uh, that's as interesting that
you should bring that up, because um once I always

(01:01:04):
remember the mountains, um from that air Force trip, and
I would um since then, you know, we would go
vacation uh in like Tahoe. I just loved I love
that that whole scene. You know. So when this wisconsinant
opportunity came up, you know, that was that was part
of my thinking that I would have an opportunity to

(01:01:27):
to be um you know right there you know, in
the mountains. And because I it was just uh the error. Um,
I felt a lot different than Cleveland, you know, it
was really clean, it was really sunny. It was just
a whole different, different vibe for me. It was like, uh,
it was very kind of like motivating and energizing to

(01:01:49):
me as a as a person, and so I've been
kind of drawn to that ever since then. So I
definitely felt like I was finally going to um, you know,
being that environment that appealed to me, you know, as
a as a teenager, you know, as a sight year old.
And so, um, how successful can we be here? You know,

(01:02:12):
I don't believe in self imposed limitations. Um, I've never
been in a I've never coached in a football game
or been any place including miamiable how where we weren't
expected to win every single game every time. And so, um, my,
my goal and our goal here is to win a
national championship and be in that national championship conversation, uh,

(01:02:33):
year in the year in and year out. And we're
going to do that through shifting the culture here and
through recruiting, and we are relentless recruiters. We recruiting every
single day. Recruiting was going well here. Um, I anticipate
us being able to win a national championship here and
be one of the premier programs in America. If I
didn't think we could do that here, I would not

(01:02:54):
I would not be here. Coach. Good luck to you.
I appreciate all the time. And uh I think people
are really going to enjoy this. If you like, get
want to feed give feedback to Coach Tucker. He's at
Coach Underscore M Tucker on Twitter. You can track him
down there again at Coach Underscore M Tucker. I'll tweet
it out as well. Appreciate the time of man. Good luck. Yeah,

(01:03:17):
thank you so much, thanks for having me on. I
appreciate it. That is melt Tucker. He is the head
coach of Colorado Football. And this has been the Wins
and Losses Podcast with Clay Travis