Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's that time time time, time, luck and load.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
The Michael Very Show is on the air. One of
the moves this drawing some criticism of President, although in
(00:34):
a muted form. People don't like to criticize Trump if
they're Trump supporters. Is that of the folks pardoned for
January sixth, ray Epps was one of those. Ray Epps
is alleged to be a Deep State plant who was
(00:58):
placed at the Capitol to try to encourage people to
be violent. Many people recognized it for what it was
because it was obvious what he was doing, as he
was trying to goad the crowd into violence, and somehow
he wasn't prosecuted. Isn't that odd? In fact, The New
(01:23):
York Times felt the need to write a glowing review
of what a great guy ray Epps is. He's the
only January sixth hostage who wasn't a monster hitler, Nazi terrorist, insurrectionist.
He's a super great guy with a family and everything.
Well that's odd because he's the guy saying let's go
(01:45):
in there and get violent. Well he got a pardon
as well. It was a blanket pardon. I guess they
decided it wouldn't be worth the hassle to give this
guy alleged to be an FBI plant a carve out,
so they did not. Here's Tucker Carlson two years ago
(02:06):
in March talking about ray Epps lying to investigators.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
One of the enduring mysteries of January sixth is the
role that intelligence and law enforcement agencies played in the
events of that day. We know there was some number
of undercover federal agents in the crowd at the Capitol.
Officials have since admitted that under oath, But what exactly
were they doing then? As the January sixth Committee worked
hard to hide the answer to that question, we do
(02:32):
know from contemporaneous videos that a mysterious figure called Ray
Epps encouraged the crowd to go into the Capitol for
some reason. Epps has never been indicted for them, but
there's no question he did in the Capitol under public pressure.
The January sixth Committee finally interviewed ray Epps. Apps told
the committee that he never entered the Capitol and therefore
(02:55):
never committed a crime. His text messages showed that at
two twelve pm he boasted to his nephew that he
had quote orchestrated the protests at the Capitol, he admitted
he helped get people there. Yet curiously, Congressional Democrats consider
Ray Epps an ally not an insurrectionist. Tonight, we can
tell you that at the very least, ray Epps lied.
(03:17):
In his sworn testimony to the January sixth Committee, Epps
testified that when he sent the text messages to his nephew,
he had already left the Capitol grounds to return to
his hotel room.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
That is not true. The surveillance footage.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
We found shows that, in fact, ray Epps remained at
the Capitol for at least another half an hour. You're
seeing that on your screen. Now, what was Epps doing there?
We can't say, but we do know that he lied
to investigators. The January sixth Committee likely knew this too.
Democrats had access to the same tape, yet they defended
(03:51):
ray Epps.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
No honest investigation would do that, Wayne Wright Czar, I
didn't get to say it on the air, but Don
Wilson threw the first no hitter in the Dome. He
struck out eighteen in one game, one of only twenty
(04:14):
pictures all time to do that, I don't have the
time for it. In this segment, we'll do it in
the next segment, we should be flossom. No, you can
be ready. I don't have time. I got three audio
bits stacked one two three. That story takes a moment
to develop. Please don't interrupt. You don't have to. All
(04:36):
you have to do is push buttons. I gotta be
thinking about timing and awesomeness. Give out the phone number.
This is not what did Rush say? Make it look easy.
You look a lot easier than it is. And then
he would play Alec Baldwin trying to guest host a
show that that episode is is radio lore. Rush Limbaugh
(05:03):
loved that Alec Baldwin would criticize rush Limbaugh constantly. They
invited him to host a liberal New York station with
a national following on Air America I believe it was,
and within a few seconds he says, let's go to
the lines because he didn't have anything to say. When
when somebody is not good at talk radio, they just
(05:25):
keep giving out the phone number and hoping people will
call because they don't have anything to say. They just
want to interact with callers. It makes it easier. Here's
that moment.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
When we come back, we have some time.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
O great, Well, we're gonna Can we take some calls
ivan whenever we want? Do we have calls that are
on there now? No calls yet?
Speaker 4 (05:45):
No calls yet? What nobody people call to get on
the air. Do we have that number? It's right there,
you know?
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Do I have the call number in front of me? Oh,
I'm so sorry. That's interesting. Twelve ten at PhD. Of course,
any other questions you have, any other common you have,
call us to the uh what else?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Call us? Please add to one.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
If you don't call, we're going to keep reading from
the scientology.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
You might not feel it, you might not feel the energy.
Right now, do we have any calls yet?
Speaker 6 (06:17):
There?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Having no course, let'speak more about scientology. Yeah, no calls,
mister Baldwin, no calls. It's crazy. It reached a point
where this would need to be done. But Marco Rubio
led State Department read State Department orders Marco Rubio led
(06:39):
State Department orders all embassies and outposts to only fly
the United States flag and the Prisoner of War Missing
an Action powm emblem flag. What flags are they not
allowed to fly anymore? Well, surely they wouldn't be flying
(07:03):
any other flags at our embassy right wrong. They were
flying BLM flags. They were flying rainbow flags. Back in
twenty twenty one, Blinkin authorized the US embassies and consulates
to fly the Pride flag alongside the Stars and stripes.
(07:28):
Nothing quite says a demonstration America's strength abroad. Then here's
our flag that represents our nation. Oh and by the way,
here's the gay flag. Why would you choose one group
and what they've chosen as their little self identity flag,
(07:52):
by the way, co opting the rainbow. By the way,
when I was growing up, of course, we didn't know
a lot of things. I didn't know Freddie Mercury was
gaining the dude did a video before there were videos
in drag. So what did we know in Orange? They
didn't pipe in such information to us. But I always
(08:12):
liked the rainbow. My mom liked a rainbow. We'd drive
around and look for the rainbow. Now they ruin rainbows
for me, ramon, this is the Michael Berry Show. To right,
what did they go home to? Bishop Marianne Edgar Booty
(08:38):
that the Episcopalian should be embarrassed? Uff will be on
the view today. And but for me telling you, and
but for the grudge watching of a bunch of conservatives
who can't seem to quit the damn show. Nobody would
actually watch, but I guess somehow, someway they will, you
(09:02):
know how death Row inmates. Oh, I wanted to get
to that other story. Hold on, hold on, give me,
just give me just a second. I wanted to get
to that other story. Let's see if I can do it.
Jim sent it over. Hold on right there. Ah, Yes,
(09:22):
I told you that Marco Rubio led the State Department.
Marco Rubio's led State Department ordered all embassies you can
only fly the US flag and the prisoner of War
missing an action flag. That's it. I always thought it
odd to fly rainbow flags over our embassies. It reminds
(09:42):
me of a joke that Norm MacDonald told about gay Pride.
We had to cut it short because, as you know,
Norm tells long jokes. But here's the joke. O.
Speaker 7 (09:51):
Wait, this gay pride trade, and I saw in it
there were these an old men and old ladies like
with these signs that said we are proud of our.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Gay you know.
Speaker 7 (10:01):
And so I was saying, that's an odd thing to
be proud of, you know, because it's not an achievement.
You know, it's not like something you work all your
life to be.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Gay or anything of that.
Speaker 7 (10:11):
And I just wanted, I just I had a hard
time believing that these fifty sixty year old men are
actually bragging. You know, I worked like that. Hey, Bill,
you know my kid, Oh my god. We're proud of him, Johnny.
He graduated from Harvard, you know, the first in his class.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
And now he's articling over at the law firm, and
oh yeah, he loves.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
That's what we're telling the world. Hey, we're the US. Hey,
the greatest country in the history of the world. We
won two World Wars, undefeated national international champions. You put
a man on the moon, unlocked man's full potential to achieve.
We will fly our flag for the world to see.
We are proud of our ragged old flag.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I walked through a county courthouse square the heart old man.
I'm sitting there. I said, your old courthouse has kind
of run down. He said, no, it'll do.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Prior little town.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I said, your old flag hole is leaned a little bit,
and that's a ragged old flag.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
You gotta hanging on it.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
He said, to have a sea, and I said, down,
is this the first time you've been to our little town.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I said, I think it is.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
He said, I don't like to brag, but we're kind
of proud that ragged old flag. You see. We got
a little hole in that flag there when Washington took
it across the Delaware. And then I got got powdered,
burned the night that Francis Scott Key said, washing it right,
(11:47):
and say can you see? And then you got out
a bad rip in New Orleans, packing him and Jackson
tugging that it seemed, and it almost fell at the
Alamo beside the Texas flag.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
But she waved on.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Though she got got cut up with a sword at Chancellorsville,
and she got cut again at Shilow Hill.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
There was Robert E.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Lee, bore Card and Bragg, and the South wind blew
hard on that ragged old flag on the Flanders Field
in World War One, and she got a big hold
from a birth of God.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
She turned blood red. In World War two she hung
limb and low.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
A time or two she was in Korea, Vietnam. She
went where she was sent by her uncle Sam. She
waved from our ships upon the briny foam, and now
they've about quid waved back here home, in her own
good land.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Here, she's been a few she's.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Been burned, dishonored, denied, and refused, and the government for
which she sends is scandalized throughout the land.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And she's getting threadbare and she's wearing thin.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
But she's in good shit. Who her sheep.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
She's in because she's been.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Through the fire before, and I believe she can take
a whole lot more. So we raise her up every morning,
and we take her down every night. We don't let
her turn around, and we bold her upright. On second thought,
I do like to drag because I'm mighty proud of
(13:42):
that ragged over flo.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
My point is there are only three flags that should
ever be flown over our embassies, Old Glory, the pow
mi A flag and the Texas flag. Only three that
are acceptable. When you start flying flags of subgroups, you're
(14:13):
making a statement. And by the way, everyday normal gays
and lesbians do not want that nonsense. This is the part.
It's like blacks don't like Shila Jackson Lee or Al Sharpton.
But the bummer is people think they do right, they
(14:35):
get painted in that corner. Nobody likes the flamboyant, loud mouth,
self serving makes a living off being a loud gay
person saying we all want this. Nobody likes that. You
know what kind of person that is. You know how
people think of that person, and they are the guy
(14:56):
who will forever be the face of the Silvester Turner
mayor all administration and not Marvin Algamadu. We're talking about
the city employee now prison inmate, park rock ranger, on
on on on.
Speaker 8 (15:13):
Hell, I was doing my job, working in the park,
doing my job of looking for much.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
You see the punk.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I'm patrol's reputation for man on man fresh and call
the preparation.
Speaker 8 (15:24):
Well loen be as that I'll see. It's a pair
of round fellows for one on dan knees on once forward,
bringing a muster on the seed. Put your hands in
the air, under standing up Please you take off your coat.
Got through the bus.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I need a coach, a naked man.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
I need to see me a naked man.
Speaker 8 (15:43):
Wow, yourness, I'm dressing. Give me two hundred bucks on
me god is a twenty? Well that's your sup for you,
because I ain't a cash Open your phone and open
your open the cash up heyby hey, the pop luck regules.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
It clings key, It's I'm for a girl and the board.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I like Malcobarry's show. The orders are Tom Homan reporting
just two hours ago that there are now zero CBP
one app releases. The one APP release from the Customs
(16:25):
and Border Patrol at the direction of MAJORCAS through Biden
or Biden through MAJORCAS allowed folks using this app to
get into our country illegally. As a result of shutting
down that app, total apprehensions at the southern border have
dropped to seven hundred and sixty six on the first day.
(16:49):
What's the baseline. That's compared to between ten thousand and
twelve thousand per day under Biden. They're down to a
seven point six percent of that, and it will only
go lower because you know what happens when you actually
(17:09):
turned people back at the border who walked across five
countries to get here, they're going to say that wasn't
worth it, and they're going to stop coming. In the law,
you refer to that as attracting them to the nuisance.
(17:31):
So let's say you create a park with a really
really dangerous monkey bars. Did y'all have monkey bars. Selena.
What was Selena's last name, Selena Richards, I can't remember
her last name. A girl I went to school with
and was very sweet on in second grade, I must say,
(17:53):
broke both her wrists on the monkey bars. There were
a lot of injuries on the monkey bars. Lots of
injuries monkey bars, mostly because we didn't just hang on
them and walk down them the way you were supposed
to offer. We'd get up on the top of it
like ignorance. Yeah, yeah, that happened. But attracting someone to
(18:15):
the nuisance would be building a park with a really,
really dangerous piece of equipment on it. And so a
person might say, yeah, but you bear responsibility for it. Yes,
but you attracted someone to this nuisance. You created a
situation where you could reasonably expect that they were going
to come there and get hurt on it. Well, that's
(18:37):
what we were doing. We were attracting people here on
the premise that when you got here, you'd get in.
So more and more people started coming. It made the
problem far worse than it would have been. I am
about to demonstrate that when someone does something good, even
(19:01):
if I don't like that person or I don't support
that person. It's about the policy. It's not personal to me.
I do not know Dustin Burroughs. I couldn't pick him
out of a crowd. I've seen pictures of him. He's
got a beard. That's all I know. He's a plant's
attorney in love It. It's all I know. We got
(19:23):
probably a lot of listeners in love Itt who.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Do know him.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
He's a state rep. You should know the people in
your district. I'm sure he does. He's been there, I
think ten years. He was drunk d Age's number two.
In fact, we got a call from Drunk Day to
Dustin Burroughs commending him. But Dustin Burroughs won the speakership.
Now he won it because the Democrats all teamed up
(19:49):
and he couldn't win the majority of Republicans. Far from it.
But they teamed up with the Democrats. But I am
happy to say, and I do commend, that their first
action was to fund to the tune of a billion
dollars universal school choice, which is double the amount that
(20:11):
was proposed in last sessions. Bill. I am of two
minds on this, because you got to find that money somewhere.
And it's also the case that they had to placate
(20:32):
the public school lobby. And make no mistake, the public
school lobby is one of the most powerful lobbies in Austin.
And that's not a positive thing. That is not about
the children anymore than when you hear these crazy nut
catwomen like Randy Winingarten, who's head of one of the
(20:52):
two largest national teachers unions. They are not out for
the kids. It has nothing to do with the kids
at all. The public school lobby is State Rep. Glenn Rogers,
who's a Republican, and some of these others have teamed
up with the Democrats. The public school lobby has sought
(21:15):
to lie.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
To.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Misinform, to claim things that are not true. And I'll
tell you why, especially for rural state reps, including Republican
state reps, the largest employer in their district is the
school district. The superintendent and the administration have incredible sway
(21:42):
because you don't have industries there, and people might live there,
but they farm or they live there and they drive
to a town where they work. And those public schools
do not want to be held accountable, even the rural ones.
We've seen this here some of those Cypress schools. You
would expect to be outstanding, and then you see how
(22:04):
much they're they're self dealing, they're having conferences for themselves
or giving themselves massive pay raises. The quality of education
is not getting any better. That's verifiable, there's test standards
to prove that. And yet more money, more money, more money.
Those people are scared to death of competition. And so
(22:30):
what they've done is they've told their small town, rural
constituents of the school district, Hey, they're gonna take all
our money. It's in billionaires, those oligarks, those billionaires, those oligarchs,
they're gonna take all our money, and they're gonna give
it to these to the private schools. What about homeschoolers. No,
(22:54):
they're gonna take all our money. We won't have any
money for the school anymore. That's what they're trying to do.
They're trying to he fund the school. Nobody's trying to
defund your school. You get an allocation from the state
government based on how many students you have. If you're
doing a good job, then nobody's going to be able
(23:14):
to build a new school in the district. A private school.
It's expensive and people would have to pay for that
nobody's going to be able to beat you if you're
doing a good job, are you? But at least we
built in a provision for school choice. So congrats on
that drunk date had a compliment for Dustin ber the
(23:35):
town this boy they fell.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
Hey man, congratulations on a good win.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
It's a big, big day. It says Texas in it.
Speaker 7 (23:45):
I just wanns to tell you you know very well
in the side r head out of far fire figure.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Push your tiny hand in mind.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Jeff Burrows. Man, we got this, dude. We're gonna do
it all.
Speaker 7 (24:04):
We're gonna play pickle ball every day, every day, play
pickle Paul, Jeff Burrows, Jeff Pearrows.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
We did it man.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
You and me together, we're like dynamic duo.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
We're the everything and all is you and me.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Teamwork makes the dreamwork.
Speaker 7 (24:22):
Jeff Burrows.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Hey man, you got lise thing to sip on.
Speaker 7 (24:27):
I'm kind getting thirsty, buddy, use a little ball, Bob.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Coming back. Man, they failed my number. Zoom you know
my number number, phone number, Jeff Burrows. And the end
of your message, press one. The other girls all get
pretty closing time. When you're listening to The Michael Berry.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Show, Candace with her thinking hapen one says, maybe the
pardon of Ray Epps is intentional, so that if Epps
is subpoena, he would have to tell the truth about
(25:14):
who put him at the capitol to stir up the innocence.
Wouldn't it be nice to know the names? Well said,
Well said, I like that Blake. You're on the Michael
Berry Show.
Speaker 6 (25:28):
Go ahead, sir, yes, sir, I have a story for
you about working with the gay Pride flag. All right,
several years ago, I was working to Moscow Embassy for facilities.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
I was up in the old.
Speaker 6 (25:44):
Embassy park but we keep off apart and I was
looking land up there and in the box there's a
gay fried flag.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
And I asked.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
My partner said, what's that? What's that all about? He so, oh, yeah,
last year we had a fly that gay Pride flag.
We're hanging out the window is all of the Moscow Embassy,
I mean, all the all of the Moscow newspaper. And
uh that's when the coupon made a comment of Battle
of the news. He started laughing and uh, I said, well,
we can't have that going on like that. It's embarrassing. Well,
(26:16):
the whole area is locked down like Fort Knox's cameras everywhere.
I mean, my partner got an idea of taking a
water bottle up there full of colour ox and sprinkling
on that flag. Next next year came around and it
kind of ate up a little bit. So the second command,
not the ambassador. Ambassador Sullivan was a nice guy, but
(26:36):
the second command there was all East Coast liberal, and
he said, well, if we can't use that flag, he
wanted to buy this five thousand dollars projector to project
his gay pride crap all over the side of the embassy.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
And uh, needless to say, that didn't happen. But you
know it's I do.
Speaker 6 (26:59):
I've found members that you're gay, and we're support them all.
But all that stuff is just too much out of control.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
That's exactly right, and and that's that's by design. The
design is to push it to the point that it
bothers you. At one point, that threshold was tolerance. Tolerate
people who are gay. Most people tolerate people. Nobody's going
out bashing people for being gay, beating them up for
(27:30):
being gay. Right, it was dangerous for people who were gay.
They were being beat up because they were gay. That
was what we were told. Now people don't really care.
Just don't put it in my face, don't take it
into the school, don't try to go make my kid gay.
Don't That's all people ask. When we got tolerance, then
(27:52):
became acceptance, then became preference. You will promote based on
the fact that you don't have enough homos. You will
say that you would date a trans a dude, that's
a girl. You will say that you will do it,
or you're a transphobe. The goal is necessarily it's not
(28:18):
a glitch in the system that you're seriously bothered a
by what's happening. That's the plan. The plan is to
find that inflection point and push you at that inflection
point and create a battle.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
That is the plan.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And whether that's gay marriage, whether that's would you date
a do that dresses as a girl, it doesn't matter.
It's a moving target. The moment that you're not bothered
by it is the moment that they ask, all right, well,
then you need to hold a parade for it. The
moment you hold a parade for it is the moment
(28:57):
you need to your child will be converted to it.
Using your tax dollars and you won't be allowed to
do a thing about it, and if you do, you
will be punished. In Harris County, a Democrat activist judge
named not to Cornelio not to Cornholio, has been removed
(29:22):
from a death row appeals case after she's illegally arranged
a secret medical procedure for a death row inmate who
was taken to the medical center unshackled. People in the
medical center didn't know that guy's a death row inmate
and allowed to be in a waiting room around the
general public. So you've got a guy who's on death
(29:44):
row nothing to lose. He even told his mother in
a phone call. They hid the fact because he's scared,
like what if somebody figures it out? There wasn't security
around him. She did all this far outside the bounds
of what she's allowed to do. She's a pro criminal,
anti death penalty, democrat activist, nut job judge. Her name
(30:09):
is not to Cornelio. She's been taking off the case.
This is ABC thirteen with the story how did it happen?
Speaker 6 (30:15):
Who?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
What?
Speaker 9 (30:18):
Drew Lyon has a lot of questions.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
It baffles my mind.
Speaker 9 (30:22):
Five years after Ronald Haskell was sentenced to die in
the shooting deaths of six of his family members. Lyon
says Haskel is tormenting him.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Something like this.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Gives him a little bit of control, a little bit
of power.
Speaker 9 (30:36):
And it started with this notification from the Texas prison
system that Haskell, a death row inmate.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Was on the move.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Who on earth has that much power and authority and
who authorized that?
Speaker 9 (30:49):
Court record showed District Court Judge Natalia Cornelio issued a
bench worn on June twenty seventh for Haskell to appear
a month later in her courtroom at midnight.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
That raises some eyebrowssh.
Speaker 9 (31:00):
Reese off the Harris County District Attorney's office, as they
were never informed about it and a hearing never happened.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
There was no court setting on July twenty second, particularly
not one at midnight.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
The whole thing was a guys instead.
Speaker 9 (31:13):
Haskell's nearly three weeks stay at the Harris County jail
gave him time to ketch up, often with his mom
in one phone conversation acknowledging the secret nature of his presence,
calling it cloak and dagger. But what really disturbs Lyon,
whose sister and family were murdered at their spring home
in twenty fourteen. Is that Haskell was taken to a
private imaging clinic near the medical center for a scan.
(31:35):
As seen here from.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Body camera video, the inmate was feet three four feet
away from just some random guy seeing the doctor's office,
waiting for his name to be called.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Did that guy know that he was feet away from
a mass murderer.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
This is the sort of thing they do. They do
not have, but they should. Our elected officials do not
have fear. The Democrats do not have fear. The activists
do not have fear. That is not a suggestion that
they be physically harmed. It is a suggestion that there
(32:16):
be accountability. Whoever booked that job woman that's going to
be on the view today, the episcopal priest, I guess
they call her. Somebody on Trump's team had a job
before putting him in that environment to be lectured by her.
Somebody failed. That person should be fired. Set the tone accountability,
(32:44):
instill fear among your team. You screw up that bad
nothing personal. You're not a starter anymore. You might get
some time on special teams. You throw five interceptions to
start the game. You're not going in on the sixth possession,
just not. At some point there's going to be accountability.
(33:05):
You make a mistake like that, you should be conscious
not to make a mistake like this, not an honest mistake.
That woman's record was out there. You should have known
that