March 12, 2025 • 34 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's that time, time, time, time, Luck and load. Michael
Verry Show is on the air.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What are the things I really enjoy that Tucker Carlson
does these days? You know, in some ways, Tucker getting
fired from Fox has turned out to be a good thing. Now,
the circumstances behind his firing, I think we're chicken and
I can't add the word to that i'd like to,
because it would violate FCC regulations. And it also, I
(00:42):
think probably reduced his overall influence because he was on
It was the biggest show in all of cable news history,
and he was on nightly and I think that gave
him a broad reach. But in many ways, you know,
you talk about when one door closes, another opens, and
(01:03):
you talk about God's plan for your life. It sure
seems that Tucker is following that direction and is in
a situation now where he's making a difference by being
able to take on some really tough positions that he
probably could not have taken on where he's still at Fox.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
But one of the.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Things I have enjoyed of late because I follow him
on YouTube, is that he will have he will have
conversations with individuals, not because they've written a book, or
they're in a movie, or they've done something of late,
but because they're interesting and they're far ranging conversations. And
over the years we've done that, and I find it's
funny that many listeners need some structure.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Hey, why are you talking to that guy?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And sometimes I'm talking to the guy because I find
it to be interesting. And today is one of those cases.
Now he's written a book almost exactly a year ago
March twenty sixth of last year, it launched called Pagan America,
The Decline of Christianity and the and the Dark Age
to Come.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses on.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's called Pagan America, The Decline of Christianity and the
Dark Age to Come, and we will weave into our
conversation references to the book. But I had him on
because I thought he was interesting. His name is John
Daniel Davidson, and he had made some comments on Twitter
which caused me to go to his Twitter page. John
(02:24):
d Davidson is his page, and I thought some of
what he says is very interesting because there's things that
people don't want to say, but I believe many people feel.
And then we start our conversation, and I find out
that he's given up Austin, Texas, where he was living,
and he's gone back home to Alaska to build a
log cabin that he lives in. And I thought, if
(02:45):
this guy isn't interesting, then who is. But let's start
with the first question, John Daniel Davidson. John, you posted
a statement that I'm seeing more and more conservatives say
and a lot of people afraid to say. And it
has a very deep meaning and you don't seem to
me as a type too scared to discuss it, and
(03:05):
that is that America is a nation, not an idea.
Bono had the famous you know statement that America's an idea.
Vivek Ramaswamy said, America is an idea. That is, I
think a very veiled reference to some deep cultural and
political statements. And I suspect you share my opinion because
(03:25):
you've written about this. Why do you make the statement
that America is a nation not an idea? Why is
America not an idea?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, it's a great question and a discussion that we
have to have. And you're right, a lot of people
don't want to have this discussion because they're afraid of
being called racist or xenophobic by making the argument that
we're a nation, that we're a people with a shared
past and a common future, a people in a nation,
just like other countries, are peoples and nations and not ideas.
(03:56):
And I think the reason to make that state, to
make that argument now is because I think this debate
over American identity is the most important debate and is
actually the issue that's sort of behind a lot of
our political conflicts right now. And it posits two very
different visions of America. One is vivek Ramaswami bono kind
(04:17):
of vision that America is just a set of abstract
principles that anyone anywhere in the world can subscribe to
and magically become an American. Right, and we've been sort
of propagandized and indoctrinated into accepting this interpretation of America,
which is a relatively new way of thinking about our
(04:37):
country that is not consonant with how most Americans have
understood themselves for most of our history. And the alternative
to that, the other side of the coin, which I argue,
is that America is a nation. That is to say,
we have a particular culture, language, history, customs, a whole
(04:58):
way of life, and that in order to really become American,
you have to adopt that way of life, those customs,
that language, those traditions, and make them your own and
have no other allegiance and no other home but America.
And that is really not the case for a lot
of people who call themselves Americans today and have what
(05:19):
we call hyphenated identities, right, And so this is a
really important discussion. It's something that we have to talk about,
and it's something that conservatives especially have to get comfortable
making the case that we're not just an idea. And
the reason that's important. If we're just an idea, what
that means, What that really means is that we are
(05:41):
just economic units, a tax farm for a global empire
controlled by global corporate interests that want open markets and
open borders. And our nation is nothing but GDP and
that is not what a nation is, and that is
not what America is, right, And it's one of the
many things that separates us from China. For instance, you.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Write about how particularly folks on the right in this
country and self proclaimed conservatives, are very uncomfortable with this
notion of which you speak, And I have been asked
before in interviews, is America a Christian nation? And my
answer to that is, yes, we are a Christian nation.
We were Christian in our founding. Our founders were folks
(06:35):
very focused on creating a land of religious freedom from
the King Anglican Church, and that that is a major
part of our culture. It doesn't mean you have to
be a Christian to live in the United States, but yes,
we are a Christian nation.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
How do you that's my position. How do you answer
that question? I agree with you. I think there's when
you're honest with the history, and when you're honest with
what our founder said and who they were and kind
of where they came from, you come to the inescapable
conclusion that America is a Christian nation. At the very least,
(07:11):
we can say with a lot of confidence that our founders,
the people who created this country, understood themselves to be
creating a country in a form of government that was
for and could only work with a Christian people. And
to the extent that we are no longer a Christian people,
which that's part of what I argue in my book,
(07:34):
is that we're rapidly de christianizing. We have a mismatch
between our form of government and the kind of people
that we are. John Adams of course famously said, and
he wasn't the only one who said this, but he
most famously said that our constitution was meant for a
moral and religious people and is wholly unfit for any other. Now,
(07:54):
that doesn't sound like a country. That's just a set
of propositions that anyway to that founds like a country.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
John, for just a moment, I'm up against a break here.
John Daniel Davidson is our guest. His book is Pagan America,
The Decline of Christianity and the Dark Age.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
To Come, will continue our comp Michael ry Glad in
the System.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Modern John Daniel Davidson is our guest. We're talking about
this notion. His book, by the way, is Pagan America,
The Decline of Christianity and the Dark Age to Come.
You posted something which was the reason I reached.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Out to you and wanted to talk to you today.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
You wrote, the case of Mahmood Khalil is instructive. No
matter how long he's here as an American or what
his legal status is, Khalil will probably never really become
an American because being an American is about much more
than going through a neutral administrative process. I read this
(09:11):
about five times. I thought about it, I pondered it,
I pulled it apart and put it back together. I
found it a very, very fascinating statement. I think a
lot of us feel this way. I think a lot
of Americans feel this way, but would be uncomfortable stating
it publicly. So I would like you to take one
(09:32):
moment and tell folks who don't know about Khalil and
Columbia and what happened, and then explain what you mean
by this, and let me read it again, folks, because
you're not getting to look at the words, You're just
hearing them spoken. The case of Mamood Khalil is instructive.
No matter how long he's here or what his legal
status is, Khalil will probably never really become an American
(09:55):
because being an American is about much more than going
through a new Trull administrative process.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So tell us for a minute who he is and
what this means. Yeah, this is the Colombia grad student
who helped organize pro Hamas protests and demonstrations on Columbia's
campus after the October seventh Hamas attack on Israel in
(10:23):
which one hundred some odd people were flaughtered. He's a
pro Hamas activist and apparently, according to the authorities, allegedly
a pro Hamas or a Hamas agent, and he was.
He's a He came here from Syria not too many
(10:43):
years ago and quickly acquired a green card under one
of Joe Biden's refugee programs and enrolled at the Columbia.
And he has been arrested, and I think the Trump
administration is looking to deport him, revoke his green card
status for these pro Hamas activities and rendering support to Hamas.
(11:07):
Hamas of course as a terrorist organization, so it's illegal
to support them in any material way. But I said
that because you know it directly bears on this discussion
we're having about what what does it mean to be
an American? Someone like Khalil can go through an administrative
process to apply to a refugee program, to get a
(11:28):
green card, to enroll at Columbia, to live here, maybe
even acquire legal citizenship or you know, permanent legal status
of some kind. But will that person be an American?
And if we if we accept the argument that America
is a nation and not just an idea. Then the
answer must be no, because an American would never support
(11:50):
an organization like Hamas. It would it would never protest
in support of an organization like HAMAS. That is totally
antithetical to the spearpirit of this American nation and the
American people. And I think we've gotten caught in this
way of thinking where we've accepted this argument that Americans
(12:10):
an idea such that anyone with however foreign, their views,
however alien their culture or way of life, or political
and social views, if they just go through this neutral process,
they are somehow an American. And I think that's false.
I think everyone knows that's false. Nobody wants to say
(12:32):
it because you get accused of being a racist, but
we all know that someone like Khalil will never really
be an American unless he goes to a radical conversion
and adopts our morality and our way of life and
our customs and our traditions and rejects groups like Comas
and Islamic extremism. And that's you know, that's not to
(12:55):
say he can't become an American, but that he probably won't.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
So that's not to say that he needs to convert
to Christianity in order to be what we would call
loosely an American. And I don't mean which passport you carry.
I'm not putting words in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I'm asking No, he wouldn't need to convert to Christianity,
but it would sure help well.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So for anyone who doesn't understand, you're not suggesting that
someone needs to be white, or a Christian or anything else,
explain that again, if you would, what it means to
be an American. And I found this interesting. We share
a lot of listeners and followers with Matt Walsh, and
he made a comment, I think in response to what
(13:41):
you said, that we're back to the what is a woman?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Again?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
These are things we need to be able to define
and it makes us uncomfortable. And I love the fact
that you're not uncomfortable. It's direct, it's truth, and you
stated it.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So if you would, Yeah, I mentioned this a little
bit in the piece that I wrote, which was only
a small part of that. He was in the news,
and so I thought it was a good example. The
other example I spend more time talking about was the
situation of the white South African farmers. The africaners who
are facing land expropriation by their government without compensation, and
(14:17):
the Trump administration you know, recently over the weekend said,
you know, these people should have an expedited path to
US citizenship. And when Trump said that, there was some
pushback from people on the right saying, oh, we shouldn't
expedite citizenship for anybody, you know, because it cheapens US
citizenship and it should be the same process for everybody.
And I thought, that's not right. That's actually not the
(14:39):
the correct conservative view and the correct view of somebody
who believes America is a nation and not an idea.
Because of course, you know, South African farmers, these these
africaners are descendants of Dutch Calvinists, their ancestors who settled
in those you know, those lands and being created, you know,
(15:02):
turned South Africa into the bread basket of a continent.
As Agriculture Secretary Brook Rawlins said last week, they are
very close to our founders. Their founders were very close
to our founders in religion, in culture, in habits customs,
way of life. It is it would not be as
hard for a African farmer to come to America come
(15:28):
truly become culturally an American in the same way that
it would be difficult for someone like Khalil to become
an American. There's there's greater number of points of cultural
contact between the africaner and the American than there is
between the Syrian Hamas supporter and the American. And that
(15:52):
may offend some people, but it only offends people if
they buy into this fatuous notion that America is this
multicultural utape where every kind of person from all over
the world just comes here and brings their culture with
them and they don't assimilate. That is not what our
founders had in mind. And that's not what we mean
(16:12):
when we talk about the melting pot of America. It
means that you assimilate and you shed the identity of
your home country. And you have done this. I point
old with me, for just a moment, I'm up against
to break.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
John Daniel Davidson is his name, Pagan America, the Decline
of Christianity, and the Dark Age to Come more.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
He just shows me what it's like to be, you know,
a real man. I have never met someone so wonderful.
I call him rich. The MARKL.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Berry Dark Age to Come It was published almost exactly
a year ago. He's been associated with the sort of
blue chip tier of conservative independent thought in this country,
from being a senior editor at a Federalist to being
a contributor at Claremont Institute, which does great work, Wall
(16:59):
Street Journal, New York Post, a senior fellow at the
Texas Public Policy Foundation, which is great work. Kevin Roberts
now at Heritage. He's an alum of Hillsdale and of
course the book, and he's now a resident of his home,
his original home state of Alaska after moving back living
(17:20):
in Austin. We were talking about what it means to
be an American, and we were talking about expediting the
request and the suggestion by President Trump, probably with Elon
Musk and his ear to be honest of the South
African farmers who are being slaughtered by blacks there, who
are taking their lands and brutally murdering them. That's not
(17:41):
in dispute. And you've got you've got a member of
parliament there who happens to be black, calling for the
slaughter of whites there, and it's happening. I mean, it's
very disturbing. It's very disturbing. And Trump suggesting, you know,
we expedite their status coming here. You were on that subject,
if you could pick up from.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
There, Yeah, I was talking about that to answer your
question about, you know, what is an American and can
we define it? And you mentioned you know, this is
like Matt Walsh saying, this is very much a kin
to what is a woman conversation. The left doesn't want
to say what an American is, but people on the
right should be able to say what an American is.
(18:19):
And it's not just accepting the propositions in the Declaration
of Independence or accepting something like the rule of law,
or what the Ramaswami posits. Accepting meritocracy. Right. Much of
Asia is a meritocracy, right, but it's not America. Being
an American is far more cultural. It has far more
(18:41):
to do with your beliefs about the world and the
way that you live, and your customs and your traditions
than it does about accepting abstract propositions. And when I
say that the africaner will have an easier time becoming
an American than the Hamas supporting Syrian Muslim, what I
(19:02):
mean partly is that the descendants of Dutch Calvinists who
grew up in that tradition, are closer culturally religiously in
terms of their worldview and the way they understand how
society should be organized than people from the Middle East,
or people from Asia, or people from Africa, the vast
(19:28):
majority of the African continent. And that's important. We have
to be able to talk about that and say, and
it's connected to the idea you brought up earlier that
America is a Christian nation. That means people from Christian
cultures and Christian civilizations are going to have an easier
time becoming an American if they immigrate here then people
from non Christian cultures and civilizations. And by the way,
(19:49):
everything that I'm saying is actually what our immigration system
was based on prior to nineteen sixty five. It reflected
the realities that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Interesting, I'm reminded of Potter Stewart his inability to define
obscene material and obscenity in the Jacobellas versus Ohio case,
and he famously said, perhaps I could never succeed in
intelligibly doing so that is defining quote unquote hardcore pornography
(20:21):
as it was being described there in a particular movie.
Perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so, but
I know it when I see it, and the motion
picture involved in this case is not that.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Well.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
That is a completely arbitrary subjective standard. And I think
intellectual rigor and ideological consistency requires, as you're attempting to
do here, that we get comfortable defining things, that we
put ourselves out there and state things definitively and stop
being afraid because it will hurt, It will hurt someone's feelings.
(20:55):
My two sons are from Ethiopia, they're eighteen and nineteen.
My wife is from India, and they are as proud
American and what I would consider conservative value based America
as any person who is a white Anglo Saxon Protestant.
But that's our culture, that's our household, that's how we live.
They also happen to be Christians, and very proudly so.
(21:17):
And I think that these things are tough conversations that
conservatives are willfully and shamefully exempting themselves from for fear
of getting along. And let's now talk about your book, Pagan,
because I think one of the problems in this country
is that the problem the death of Christianity or the
(21:38):
reduction in christian whatever term you want to use. Part
of that is in the church. I see churches that
are afraid to discuss the Bible, are afraid to discuss
someone's feelings.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Why did you write the book, Pagan? I wrote the
book because of trying to really get a handle on
so many different trends that we unfolding in our culture
around us. It's no secret that Christianity has been on
the decline in America for many, many decades, so that
(22:08):
that's not new. What I was trying to tease out
in the book is that the de Christianization of America
is not going to give way to this secular liberal
utopia where everybody has a kind of christless Christian Christianity,
or that Christian morality kind of persists without the Christian religion.
(22:32):
That is not going to happen, And indeed that's not happening.
You don't put very succinctly. You don't get the culture
without the cult. And what we're going to see, I
argue in the book is that as Christianity recedes from
public life in America, it's going to be replaced by something,
and that something is not going to be secularism or liberalism,
(22:54):
which themselves depend on Christianity as the source of their vitality.
It's going to be what Christianity will be replaced with
is a different ethos altogether, and that is a pre
Christian pagan ethos. And part of this argument is that
there is really only one alternative to Christianity, and that
is paganism, some form of paganism. Now I don't mean
(23:17):
that we're going to have temples to Zeus and Apollo
in Times Square. The paganism of the twenty first century
will not look like the paganism of the first century,
but it will be no less pagan for all that.
And that is something that I think we have not really.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Wrapped our minds around, and it would think a lot
of pagan even as you use it here we're talking
to John Daniel Davis in his book Is Pagan America
The Decline of Christianity in the Darken Age to Come?
What does pagan mean as you use.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
It broadly speaking? I guess the simplest way to put
it is it just means non Christian or anti Christian.
And really, you know, the pagan ethos is an inversion
of the Christian Ethos. The pagan world had denied that
(24:05):
all people were equal before God, that all individuals had
inherent dignity and worth. That uh, that that that God
cared you know, for each person, that God was was
actually omnipotent and transcendent. They posited a world in which
human beings were by nature not equal, that some were
(24:28):
slaves and some were masters. Uh. And that slaves had
no rights, encounted for nothing uh. And that the deities
that controlled the world were not transcendent and omnipotent. They
were imminent. They were they were, they were here and now.
And so therefore what was what was right and true
depended It was contingent on power dynamics, which is why
(24:50):
pagan empires. Pagan societies always took the form of slave empires. Eventually,
you know, across that expansion of times and geography hold up.
And so that's the John David Danielson is our guest.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
The book is Pagan America, the Decline of Christianity and
the Dark Age to Come and.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
More from the King of Ding and this other guy,
Michael Barry.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
These are the kind of guy you like to smacking ah.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
John John David, John Daniel Davidson is our guest. He's
written a book called Pagan America, The Decline of Christianity
in the Dark Age to Come.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
We were talking about that presently.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
We've been talking about what it means to be an
American and could some of these terrorists who come here
and are protesting for Hamas, could they ever become what
we would consider Americans. And I don't mean what passport
you carry and show at immigration, but what we consider
to be truly American. Can you define what is truly
American in your mind? I don't mean Americana. I don't
(25:52):
mean an open display of patriotism. I don't mean flags
or other symbols. I mean what it means to be
an American. Who is and isn't an American? Are you
comfortable saying that someone who carries an American passport is
not what we would consider American. I think these are
important conversations to have, particularly at a time where we
see protests in favor of Hamas on our streets, where
(26:14):
we see Black Lives Matter calling for such aggressive and
violent actions, where we see.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Well, where we see what we see.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
John Daniel Davidson, as our guest, I interrupted you and
I can't actually.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Recall where you were.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I was asking you to explain paganism, and I'm not
sure if you were finished there. But when you talk
about paganism rivaling Christianity and really being the only alternative
to Christianity, do you see paganism as being theistic or
untheistic or atheistic?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, I see it as being theistic, but not in
a Christian way. And part of what's happening in our
society is that as Christianity declines in the West, we
are all so seeing the kind of scientific materialist worldview
that was derived ironically from Christendom, from Western civilization that
(27:09):
came out of the Enlightenment. We're seeing that decline too.
And there's a re enchantment afoot in the West, but
it's a re enchantment that's happening in the context of
de Christianization. So people are increasingly identifying themselves as not religious, right,
(27:31):
but spiritual. And we've all heard that for years, but
the number of people who say that about themselves is
increasing exponentially. Now, why in a scientific materialist modern world,
with so many people confess themselves to be spiritual, why
would witchcraft and astrology be exploding on social media and
(27:56):
witchcraft influencers have such purchase actually with young people at
a time when church attendance is in decline. And I
think that's because the future, as I said, is not
this secular, materialist, liberal utopia. The future is a neo
pagan form of religious belief that is coming into the
(28:22):
vacuum created by the retreat of Christianity. And we see
this in all different ways. And that's part of what
the book is about, is trying to describe and point
out for people what it means that we see this
return to a spiritual yearning in the West even as
Christianity is declining.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
John Daniel Davidson is our guest. You can learn more
about his thoughts on this particular subject in his book
Pagan America. I've got about three minutes left and I
wanted to get to something that's very important to me.
Sean Davis, your peer and friend at a Federalist, posted
something earlier today.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
A few days ago.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
He said, are we allowed to notice the mass slaughter
of Christians which seems to follow every single neo con
foray into regime change in the Middle East over the
last three decades? And I added to that moderate Muslim
and I think even arguably secular quote unquote Muslim regimes
that neocons in this country have toppled have ended.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Up the worst for it.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You look at Mubarak in Egypt, you look at Kadafi
in Libya, and now you look at Asad, who we
were told was the worst person in the history of mankind,
and not Bashra. I saw was not a nice guy.
But now the replacement is very radical, very violent Islamists
who are killing the Christian community of Syria. And this
(29:46):
has been consistent again and again. I'll just open the
floor to your thoughts. I have about three minutes. You
can close the show for us.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, part of this is our disastrous reading of the
causes of nine o of them. After nine to eleven,
we were told over and over by the corporate media
and by the Bush administration that this was not a
religious war, this was not a clash of civilizations. Islam
is a religion of peace. President Bush stood in front
(30:15):
of microphones and repeated this ridiculous idea over and over again,
surrounded by religious leaders, Islamic leaders who largely agreed with
the worldview and politics and theology of the people who
perpetrated the nine to eleven attacks, and our refusal and
(30:38):
failure to see nine to eleven for the religious act
and the religious conflict that it really was has been
the source of a lot of misery in the world
because we went to Iraq and Afghanistan, we intervened in
countless other Middle Eastern Islamic countries with this understanding that
(30:59):
democracy is this universal idea, is this notion of America
is an idea again, And if America is an idea,
then you can export that idea to any culture and
any religious group in the world, and they can adopt it,
and then they'll be peaceful, and they'll be our neighbors
and our friends and our allies. And it absolutely is
just a false claim. It's not true, and it didn't
(31:22):
work out that way in Iraq, it didn't work out
that way in Afghanistan, or in any other countries where
this neo kan ideology has been tried, because it's simply
not true. What Bush and others neocons said at the
time that all human beings yearn for freedom, Well it's
not true. Some human beings yearn for justice more than
(31:42):
they yearn for freedom.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Beautifully said in short on time. I mean, you got
right to the point that is absolutely beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
There's so many things I want to get to, but
I'm up against our clock.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Just say that you're invited back anytime you would like
to come back. You are a wonderful guest, particularly in
a long form format, to really explore some things that
I think make people uncomfortable. And I think it's a
good idea to challenge yourself to improve your intellectual rigor
by hearing people who are unashamed fearless in stating their positions.
(32:22):
Thank you, John Daniel Davidson, Thanks so much for having
me and the book again, folks. Is the decline of
Christianity and the dark Age to come? Is there someone
that you follow in social media or you've seen in
public life that you find to state things that are interesting?
(32:44):
For whatever reason, I don't have to agree with every
guest's opinion, So if there's someone who says things that
you think are diametrically opposed to what I believe or
what you believe, but presents their case, well, feel free
to send me an email through the website Michael Berryshow
dot com and tell me why you think I should
talk to that person and what they bring to the conversation.
(33:07):
We are given a very very powerful instrument in our
hands that Ramon Roeblists and Jim Mudd and Chad Nakanishi
and our entire team and Daryl Kunda all have, and
that is the opportunity to talk to you, free to
you in a broadcast medium, weekdays, every day. And I
(33:32):
don't believe that what we do on the show should
be defined by what has been done before, although much
of our show is informed.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
By a lot of what Russell Limbaugh did. That's why
we very rarely take calls.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
But I also think it's a great opportunity to explore
in a more academic sense things that we find to
be interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
In that Tucker Carlson way as well.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
We're up against the clock. I've enjoyed our time together.
Fee free to email me directly your thoughts on this
or anything else we do on the show Michael Berryshow
dot com.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You can do it directly through there. Hey, exilment, Elvis
has us left for Bill. Thank you, and goodnight.
It's that time, time, time, time, Luck and load. Michael
Verry Show is on the air.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What are the things I really enjoy that Tucker Carlson
does these days? You know, in some ways, Tucker getting
fired from Fox has turned out to be a good thing. Now,
the circumstances behind his firing, I think we're chicken and
I can't add the word to that i'd like to,
because it would violate FCC regulations. And it also, I
(00:42):
think probably reduced his overall influence because he was on
It was the biggest show in all of cable news history,
and he was on nightly and I think that gave
him a broad reach. But in many ways, you know,
you talk about when one door closes, another opens, and
(01:03):
you talk about God's plan for your life. It sure
seems that Tucker is following that direction and is in
a situation now where he's making a difference by being
able to take on some really tough positions that he
probably could not have taken on where he's still at Fox.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
But one of the.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Things I have enjoyed of late because I follow him
on YouTube, is that he will have he will have
conversations with individuals, not because they've written a book, or
they're in a movie, or they've done something of late,
but because they're interesting and they're far ranging conversations. And
over the years we've done that, and I find it's
funny that many listeners need some structure.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Hey, why are you talking to that guy?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And sometimes I'm talking to the guy because I find
it to be interesting. And today is one of those cases.
Now he's written a book almost exactly a year ago
March twenty sixth of last year, it launched called Pagan America,
The Decline of Christianity and the and the Dark Age
to Come.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses on.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's called Pagan America, The Decline of Christianity and the
Dark Age to Come, and we will weave into our
conversation references to the book. But I had him on
because I thought he was interesting. His name is John
Daniel Davidson, and he had made some comments on Twitter
which caused me to go to his Twitter page. John
(02:24):
d Davidson is his page, and I thought some of
what he says is very interesting because there's things that
people don't want to say, but I believe many people feel.
And then we start our conversation, and I find out
that he's given up Austin, Texas, where he was living,
and he's gone back home to Alaska to build a
log cabin that he lives in. And I thought, if
(02:45):
this guy isn't interesting, then who is. But let's start
with the first question, John Daniel Davidson. John, you posted
a statement that I'm seeing more and more conservatives say
and a lot of people afraid to say. And it
has a very deep meaning and you don't seem to
me as a type too scared to discuss it, and
(03:05):
that is that America is a nation, not an idea.
Bono had the famous you know statement that America's an idea.
Vivek Ramaswamy said, America is an idea. That is, I
think a very veiled reference to some deep cultural and
political statements. And I suspect you share my opinion because
(03:25):
you've written about this. Why do you make the statement
that America is a nation not an idea? Why is
America not an idea?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, it's a great question and a discussion that we
have to have. And you're right, a lot of people
don't want to have this discussion because they're afraid of
being called racist or xenophobic by making the argument that
we're a nation, that we're a people with a shared
past and a common future, a people in a nation,
just like other countries, are peoples and nations and not ideas.
(03:56):
And I think the reason to make that state, to
make that argument now is because I think this debate
over American identity is the most important debate and is
actually the issue that's sort of behind a lot of
our political conflicts right now. And it posits two very
different visions of America. One is vivek Ramaswami bono kind
(04:17):
of vision that America is just a set of abstract
principles that anyone anywhere in the world can subscribe to
and magically become an American. Right, and we've been sort
of propagandized and indoctrinated into accepting this interpretation of America,
which is a relatively new way of thinking about our
(04:37):
country that is not consonant with how most Americans have
understood themselves for most of our history. And the alternative
to that, the other side of the coin, which I argue,
is that America is a nation. That is to say,
we have a particular culture, language, history, customs, a whole
(04:58):
way of life, and that in order to really become American,
you have to adopt that way of life, those customs,
that language, those traditions, and make them your own and
have no other allegiance and no other home but America.
And that is really not the case for a lot
of people who call themselves Americans today and have what
(05:19):
we call hyphenated identities, right, And so this is a
really important discussion. It's something that we have to talk about,
and it's something that conservatives especially have to get comfortable
making the case that we're not just an idea. And
the reason that's important. If we're just an idea, what
that means, What that really means is that we are
(05:41):
just economic units, a tax farm for a global empire
controlled by global corporate interests that want open markets and
open borders. And our nation is nothing but GDP and
that is not what a nation is, and that is
not what America is, right, And it's one of the
many things that separates us from China. For instance, you.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Write about how particularly folks on the right in this
country and self proclaimed conservatives, are very uncomfortable with this
notion of which you speak, And I have been asked
before in interviews, is America a Christian nation? And my
answer to that is, yes, we are a Christian nation.
We were Christian in our founding. Our founders were folks
(06:35):
very focused on creating a land of religious freedom from
the King Anglican Church, and that that is a major
part of our culture. It doesn't mean you have to
be a Christian to live in the United States, but yes,
we are a Christian nation.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
How do you that's my position. How do you answer
that question? I agree with you. I think there's when
you're honest with the history, and when you're honest with
what our founder said and who they were and kind
of where they came from, you come to the inescapable
conclusion that America is a Christian nation. At the very least,
(07:11):
we can say with a lot of confidence that our founders,
the people who created this country, understood themselves to be
creating a country in a form of government that was
for and could only work with a Christian people. And
to the extent that we are no longer a Christian people,
which that's part of what I argue in my book,
(07:34):
is that we're rapidly de christianizing. We have a mismatch
between our form of government and the kind of people
that we are. John Adams of course famously said, and
he wasn't the only one who said this, but he
most famously said that our constitution was meant for a
moral and religious people and is wholly unfit for any other. Now,
(07:54):
that doesn't sound like a country. That's just a set
of propositions that anyway to that founds like a country.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
John, for just a moment, I'm up against a break here.
John Daniel Davidson is our guest. His book is Pagan America,
The Decline of Christianity and the Dark Age.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
To Come, will continue our comp Michael ry Glad in
the System.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Modern John Daniel Davidson is our guest. We're talking about
this notion. His book, by the way, is Pagan America,
The Decline of Christianity and the Dark Age to Come.
You posted something which was the reason I reached.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Out to you and wanted to talk to you today.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
You wrote, the case of Mahmood Khalil is instructive. No
matter how long he's here as an American or what
his legal status is, Khalil will probably never really become
an American because being an American is about much more
than going through a neutral administrative process. I read this
(09:11):
about five times. I thought about it, I pondered it,
I pulled it apart and put it back together. I
found it a very, very fascinating statement. I think a
lot of us feel this way. I think a lot
of Americans feel this way, but would be uncomfortable stating
it publicly. So I would like you to take one
(09:32):
moment and tell folks who don't know about Khalil and
Columbia and what happened, and then explain what you mean
by this, and let me read it again, folks, because
you're not getting to look at the words, You're just
hearing them spoken. The case of Mamood Khalil is instructive.
No matter how long he's here or what his legal
status is, Khalil will probably never really become an American
(09:55):
because being an American is about much more than going
through a new Trull administrative process.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So tell us for a minute who he is and
what this means. Yeah, this is the Colombia grad student
who helped organize pro Hamas protests and demonstrations on Columbia's
campus after the October seventh Hamas attack on Israel in
(10:23):
which one hundred some odd people were flaughtered. He's a
pro Hamas activist and apparently, according to the authorities, allegedly
a pro Hamas or a Hamas agent, and he was.
He's a He came here from Syria not too many
(10:43):
years ago and quickly acquired a green card under one
of Joe Biden's refugee programs and enrolled at the Columbia.
And he has been arrested, and I think the Trump
administration is looking to deport him, revoke his green card
status for these pro Hamas activities and rendering support to Hamas.
(11:07):
Hamas of course as a terrorist organization, so it's illegal
to support them in any material way. But I said
that because you know it directly bears on this discussion
we're having about what what does it mean to be
an American? Someone like Khalil can go through an administrative
process to apply to a refugee program, to get a
(11:28):
green card, to enroll at Columbia, to live here, maybe
even acquire legal citizenship or you know, permanent legal status
of some kind. But will that person be an American?
And if we if we accept the argument that America
is a nation and not just an idea. Then the
answer must be no, because an American would never support
(11:50):
an organization like Hamas. It would it would never protest
in support of an organization like HAMAS. That is totally
antithetical to the spearpirit of this American nation and the
American people. And I think we've gotten caught in this
way of thinking where we've accepted this argument that Americans
(12:10):
an idea such that anyone with however foreign, their views,
however alien their culture or way of life, or political
and social views, if they just go through this neutral process,
they are somehow an American. And I think that's false.
I think everyone knows that's false. Nobody wants to say
(12:32):
it because you get accused of being a racist, but
we all know that someone like Khalil will never really
be an American unless he goes to a radical conversion
and adopts our morality and our way of life and
our customs and our traditions and rejects groups like Comas
and Islamic extremism. And that's you know, that's not to
(12:55):
say he can't become an American, but that he probably won't.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
So that's not to say that he needs to convert
to Christianity in order to be what we would call
loosely an American. And I don't mean which passport you carry.
I'm not putting words in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I'm asking No, he wouldn't need to convert to Christianity,
but it would sure help well.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So for anyone who doesn't understand, you're not suggesting that
someone needs to be white, or a Christian or anything else,
explain that again, if you would, what it means to
be an American. And I found this interesting. We share
a lot of listeners and followers with Matt Walsh, and
he made a comment, I think in response to what
(13:41):
you said, that we're back to the what is a woman?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Again?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
These are things we need to be able to define
and it makes us uncomfortable. And I love the fact
that you're not uncomfortable. It's direct, it's truth, and you
stated it.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So if you would, Yeah, I mentioned this a little
bit in the piece that I wrote, which was only
a small part of that. He was in the news,
and so I thought it was a good example. The
other example I spend more time talking about was the
situation of the white South African farmers. The africaners who
are facing land expropriation by their government without compensation, and
(14:17):
the Trump administration you know, recently over the weekend said,
you know, these people should have an expedited path to
US citizenship. And when Trump said that, there was some
pushback from people on the right saying, oh, we shouldn't
expedite citizenship for anybody, you know, because it cheapens US
citizenship and it should be the same process for everybody.
And I thought, that's not right. That's actually not the
(14:39):
the correct conservative view and the correct view of somebody
who believes America is a nation and not an idea.
Because of course, you know, South African farmers, these these
africaners are descendants of Dutch Calvinists, their ancestors who settled
in those you know, those lands and being created, you know,
(15:02):
turned South Africa into the bread basket of a continent.
As Agriculture Secretary Brook Rawlins said last week, they are
very close to our founders. Their founders were very close
to our founders in religion, in culture, in habits customs,
way of life. It is it would not be as
hard for a African farmer to come to America come
(15:28):
truly become culturally an American in the same way that
it would be difficult for someone like Khalil to become
an American. There's there's greater number of points of cultural
contact between the africaner and the American than there is
between the Syrian Hamas supporter and the American. And that
(15:52):
may offend some people, but it only offends people if
they buy into this fatuous notion that America is this
multicultural utape where every kind of person from all over
the world just comes here and brings their culture with
them and they don't assimilate. That is not what our
founders had in mind. And that's not what we mean
(16:12):
when we talk about the melting pot of America. It
means that you assimilate and you shed the identity of
your home country. And you have done this. I point
old with me, for just a moment, I'm up against
to break.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
John Daniel Davidson is his name, Pagan America, the Decline
of Christianity, and the Dark Age to Come more.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
He just shows me what it's like to be, you know,
a real man. I have never met someone so wonderful.
I call him rich. The MARKL.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Berry Dark Age to Come It was published almost exactly
a year ago. He's been associated with the sort of
blue chip tier of conservative independent thought in this country,
from being a senior editor at a Federalist to being
a contributor at Claremont Institute, which does great work, Wall
(16:59):
Street Journal, New York Post, a senior fellow at the
Texas Public Policy Foundation, which is great work. Kevin Roberts
now at Heritage. He's an alum of Hillsdale and of
course the book, and he's now a resident of his home,
his original home state of Alaska after moving back living
(17:20):
in Austin. We were talking about what it means to
be an American, and we were talking about expediting the
request and the suggestion by President Trump, probably with Elon
Musk and his ear to be honest of the South
African farmers who are being slaughtered by blacks there, who
are taking their lands and brutally murdering them. That's not
(17:41):
in dispute. And you've got you've got a member of
parliament there who happens to be black, calling for the
slaughter of whites there, and it's happening. I mean, it's
very disturbing. It's very disturbing. And Trump suggesting, you know,
we expedite their status coming here. You were on that subject,
if you could pick up from.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
There, Yeah, I was talking about that to answer your
question about, you know, what is an American and can
we define it? And you mentioned you know, this is
like Matt Walsh saying, this is very much a kin
to what is a woman conversation. The left doesn't want
to say what an American is, but people on the
right should be able to say what an American is.
(18:19):
And it's not just accepting the propositions in the Declaration
of Independence or accepting something like the rule of law,
or what the Ramaswami posits. Accepting meritocracy. Right. Much of
Asia is a meritocracy, right, but it's not America. Being
an American is far more cultural. It has far more
(18:41):
to do with your beliefs about the world and the
way that you live, and your customs and your traditions
than it does about accepting abstract propositions. And when I
say that the africaner will have an easier time becoming
an American than the Hamas supporting Syrian Muslim, what I
(19:02):
mean partly is that the descendants of Dutch Calvinists who
grew up in that tradition, are closer culturally religiously in
terms of their worldview and the way they understand how
society should be organized than people from the Middle East,
or people from Asia, or people from Africa, the vast
(19:28):
majority of the African continent. And that's important. We have
to be able to talk about that and say, and
it's connected to the idea you brought up earlier that
America is a Christian nation. That means people from Christian
cultures and Christian civilizations are going to have an easier
time becoming an American if they immigrate here then people
from non Christian cultures and civilizations. And by the way,
(19:49):
everything that I'm saying is actually what our immigration system
was based on prior to nineteen sixty five. It reflected
the realities that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Interesting, I'm reminded of Potter Stewart his inability to define
obscene material and obscenity in the Jacobellas versus Ohio case,
and he famously said, perhaps I could never succeed in
intelligibly doing so that is defining quote unquote hardcore pornography
(20:21):
as it was being described there in a particular movie.
Perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so, but
I know it when I see it, and the motion
picture involved in this case is not that.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Well.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
That is a completely arbitrary subjective standard. And I think
intellectual rigor and ideological consistency requires, as you're attempting to
do here, that we get comfortable defining things, that we
put ourselves out there and state things definitively and stop
being afraid because it will hurt, It will hurt someone's feelings.
(20:55):
My two sons are from Ethiopia, they're eighteen and nineteen.
My wife is from India, and they are as proud
American and what I would consider conservative value based America
as any person who is a white Anglo Saxon Protestant.
But that's our culture, that's our household, that's how we live.
They also happen to be Christians, and very proudly so.
(21:17):
And I think that these things are tough conversations that
conservatives are willfully and shamefully exempting themselves from for fear
of getting along. And let's now talk about your book, Pagan,
because I think one of the problems in this country
is that the problem the death of Christianity or the
(21:38):
reduction in christian whatever term you want to use. Part
of that is in the church. I see churches that
are afraid to discuss the Bible, are afraid to discuss
someone's feelings.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Why did you write the book, Pagan? I wrote the
book because of trying to really get a handle on
so many different trends that we unfolding in our culture
around us. It's no secret that Christianity has been on
the decline in America for many, many decades, so that
(22:08):
that's not new. What I was trying to tease out
in the book is that the de Christianization of America
is not going to give way to this secular liberal
utopia where everybody has a kind of christless Christian Christianity,
or that Christian morality kind of persists without the Christian religion.
(22:32):
That is not going to happen, And indeed that's not happening.
You don't put very succinctly. You don't get the culture
without the cult. And what we're going to see, I
argue in the book is that as Christianity recedes from
public life in America, it's going to be replaced by something,
and that something is not going to be secularism or liberalism,
(22:54):
which themselves depend on Christianity as the source of their vitality.
It's going to be what Christianity will be replaced with
is a different ethos altogether, and that is a pre
Christian pagan ethos. And part of this argument is that
there is really only one alternative to Christianity, and that
is paganism, some form of paganism. Now I don't mean
(23:17):
that we're going to have temples to Zeus and Apollo
in Times Square. The paganism of the twenty first century
will not look like the paganism of the first century,
but it will be no less pagan for all that.
And that is something that I think we have not really.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Wrapped our minds around, and it would think a lot
of pagan even as you use it here we're talking
to John Daniel Davis in his book Is Pagan America
The Decline of Christianity in the Darken Age to Come?
What does pagan mean as you use.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
It broadly speaking? I guess the simplest way to put
it is it just means non Christian or anti Christian.
And really, you know, the pagan ethos is an inversion
of the Christian Ethos. The pagan world had denied that
(24:05):
all people were equal before God, that all individuals had
inherent dignity and worth. That uh, that that that God
cared you know, for each person, that God was was
actually omnipotent and transcendent. They posited a world in which
human beings were by nature not equal, that some were
(24:28):
slaves and some were masters. Uh. And that slaves had
no rights, encounted for nothing uh. And that the deities
that controlled the world were not transcendent and omnipotent. They
were imminent. They were they were, they were here and now.
And so therefore what was what was right and true
depended It was contingent on power dynamics, which is why
(24:50):
pagan empires. Pagan societies always took the form of slave empires. Eventually,
you know, across that expansion of times and geography hold up.
And so that's the John David Danielson is our guest.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
The book is Pagan America, the Decline of Christianity and
the Dark Age to Come and.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
More from the King of Ding and this other guy,
Michael Barry.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
These are the kind of guy you like to smacking ah.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
John John David, John Daniel Davidson is our guest. He's
written a book called Pagan America, The Decline of Christianity
in the Dark Age to Come.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
We were talking about that presently.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
We've been talking about what it means to be an
American and could some of these terrorists who come here
and are protesting for Hamas, could they ever become what
we would consider Americans. And I don't mean what passport
you carry and show at immigration, but what we consider
to be truly American. Can you define what is truly
American in your mind? I don't mean Americana. I don't
(25:52):
mean an open display of patriotism. I don't mean flags
or other symbols. I mean what it means to be
an American. Who is and isn't an American? Are you
comfortable saying that someone who carries an American passport is
not what we would consider American. I think these are
important conversations to have, particularly at a time where we
see protests in favor of Hamas on our streets, where
(26:14):
we see Black Lives Matter calling for such aggressive and
violent actions, where we see.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Well, where we see what we see.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
John Daniel Davidson, as our guest, I interrupted you and
I can't actually.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Recall where you were.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I was asking you to explain paganism, and I'm not
sure if you were finished there. But when you talk
about paganism rivaling Christianity and really being the only alternative
to Christianity, do you see paganism as being theistic or
untheistic or atheistic?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, I see it as being theistic, but not in
a Christian way. And part of what's happening in our
society is that as Christianity declines in the West, we
are all so seeing the kind of scientific materialist worldview
that was derived ironically from Christendom, from Western civilization that
(27:09):
came out of the Enlightenment. We're seeing that decline too.
And there's a re enchantment afoot in the West, but
it's a re enchantment that's happening in the context of
de Christianization. So people are increasingly identifying themselves as not religious, right,
(27:31):
but spiritual. And we've all heard that for years, but
the number of people who say that about themselves is
increasing exponentially. Now, why in a scientific materialist modern world,
with so many people confess themselves to be spiritual, why
would witchcraft and astrology be exploding on social media and
(27:56):
witchcraft influencers have such purchase actually with young people at
a time when church attendance is in decline. And I
think that's because the future, as I said, is not
this secular, materialist, liberal utopia. The future is a neo
pagan form of religious belief that is coming into the
(28:22):
vacuum created by the retreat of Christianity. And we see
this in all different ways. And that's part of what
the book is about, is trying to describe and point
out for people what it means that we see this
return to a spiritual yearning in the West even as
Christianity is declining.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
John Daniel Davidson is our guest. You can learn more
about his thoughts on this particular subject in his book
Pagan America. I've got about three minutes left and I
wanted to get to something that's very important to me.
Sean Davis, your peer and friend at a Federalist, posted
something earlier today.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
A few days ago.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
He said, are we allowed to notice the mass slaughter
of Christians which seems to follow every single neo con
foray into regime change in the Middle East over the
last three decades? And I added to that moderate Muslim
and I think even arguably secular quote unquote Muslim regimes
that neocons in this country have toppled have ended.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Up the worst for it.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You look at Mubarak in Egypt, you look at Kadafi
in Libya, and now you look at Asad, who we
were told was the worst person in the history of mankind,
and not Bashra. I saw was not a nice guy.
But now the replacement is very radical, very violent Islamists
who are killing the Christian community of Syria. And this
(29:46):
has been consistent again and again. I'll just open the
floor to your thoughts. I have about three minutes. You
can close the show for us.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, part of this is our disastrous reading of the
causes of nine o of them. After nine to eleven,
we were told over and over by the corporate media
and by the Bush administration that this was not a
religious war, this was not a clash of civilizations. Islam
is a religion of peace. President Bush stood in front
(30:15):
of microphones and repeated this ridiculous idea over and over again,
surrounded by religious leaders, Islamic leaders who largely agreed with
the worldview and politics and theology of the people who
perpetrated the nine to eleven attacks, and our refusal and
(30:38):
failure to see nine to eleven for the religious act
and the religious conflict that it really was has been
the source of a lot of misery in the world
because we went to Iraq and Afghanistan, we intervened in
countless other Middle Eastern Islamic countries with this understanding that
(30:59):
democracy is this universal idea, is this notion of America
is an idea again, And if America is an idea,
then you can export that idea to any culture and
any religious group in the world, and they can adopt it,
and then they'll be peaceful, and they'll be our neighbors
and our friends and our allies. And it absolutely is
just a false claim. It's not true, and it didn't
(31:22):
work out that way in Iraq, it didn't work out
that way in Afghanistan, or in any other countries where
this neo kan ideology has been tried, because it's simply
not true. What Bush and others neocons said at the
time that all human beings yearn for freedom, Well it's
not true. Some human beings yearn for justice more than
(31:42):
they yearn for freedom.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Beautifully said in short on time. I mean, you got
right to the point that is absolutely beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
There's so many things I want to get to, but
I'm up against our clock.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Just say that you're invited back anytime you would like
to come back. You are a wonderful guest, particularly in
a long form format, to really explore some things that
I think make people uncomfortable. And I think it's a
good idea to challenge yourself to improve your intellectual rigor
by hearing people who are unashamed fearless in stating their positions.
(32:22):
Thank you, John Daniel Davidson, Thanks so much for having
me and the book again, folks. Is the decline of
Christianity and the dark Age to come? Is there someone
that you follow in social media or you've seen in
public life that you find to state things that are interesting?
(32:44):
For whatever reason, I don't have to agree with every
guest's opinion, So if there's someone who says things that
you think are diametrically opposed to what I believe or
what you believe, but presents their case, well, feel free
to send me an email through the website Michael Berryshow
dot com and tell me why you think I should
talk to that person and what they bring to the conversation.
(33:07):
We are given a very very powerful instrument in our
hands that Ramon Roeblists and Jim Mudd and Chad Nakanishi
and our entire team and Daryl Kunda all have, and
that is the opportunity to talk to you, free to
you in a broadcast medium, weekdays, every day. And I
(33:32):
don't believe that what we do on the show should
be defined by what has been done before, although much
of our show is informed.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
By a lot of what Russell Limbaugh did. That's why
we very rarely take calls.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
But I also think it's a great opportunity to explore
in a more academic sense things that we find to
be interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
In that Tucker Carlson way as well.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
We're up against the clock. I've enjoyed our time together.
Fee free to email me directly your thoughts on this
or anything else we do on the show Michael Berryshow
dot com.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You can do it directly through there. Hey, exilment, Elvis
has us left for Bill. Thank you, and goodnight.
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