May 16, 2025 • 30 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Doctor Joe, pastor at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, has
(00:04):
written eight books, the aforementioned Sin of Empathy and now
the book Leadership and Emotional Sabotage. Take us back to
why this is necessary? What does emotional sabotage have to
do with leadership?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Of agitation and angst and turmoil and disruption? Everybody, I think,
feels a sense that no one's in control and that
things are running all different ways. And as a result,
the leaders who are meant to act as the shock
absorbers for society can easily begin to abdicate their responsibility
to steward their institutions. That happens in homes, it happens
(00:45):
in churches, it happens in schools, and it happens in nations.
And so in that book, I'm seeking to kind of
diagnose that problem, What are its roots? Why do we
feel like we're sitting on this powder keg? And then
to offer solutions, what does it mean to be courageous?
And so reminded in the midst of this agitation And
the basic paradine I offer there is that we live
in a society that has become drunk on passions. Passions
(01:08):
are our emotions are immediate and instinctive emotions. When you
see something good, you want it. When you see something scary,
you fear it. When you see something sad, you grieve it.
And our passions, we can become drunk on them, they
become in the driver's seat. And I instead want to
argue that one of the core virtues we have to
recover is sober mindedness. We need to be sober, We
(01:32):
need to sober up, which means that we have a
clarity of mind and that we're stable. We have a
stability in our souls that anchors us when these big
anxiety storms and social stampedes run across our path and
we're ready to act, We're ready to lean in. We
don't advocate in our passive, but instead we step up
to the plate and we have the courage to follow
through and fulfill the responsibilities that God has given to us.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
What has been the reaction of leaders, whether in the church,
the corporate world, education, or politics, to this book? Have
there been people who said, I didn't recognize I was
subjected to this. I didn't recognize this was a cancer
upon me. I disagree with you. What what have folks said?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, so this time I you know, you mentioned that
I mentioned I've written about eight books. Leadership and Emotional
Sabotage is by far the best selling. It's it's really
struck a nerve and it's kind of taken on a
life of its own. It's surprising to me the places
I've I've come across that I haven't I've had I
would have no connection to otherwise. I'm a I'm a
pastor in a small town and a small Christian school.
(02:41):
This was a book published by a small Christian publisher,
and I know that cabinet secretaries, pastors of megachurches, uh,
you know, colonels, and generals in the military are reading
it in order to help them lead the institutions that
they're a part of. So it's been it's been surprising
to me the the places that this book has been
(03:01):
able to get because I think partly the title is catchy,
thanks publisher.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And it's a short book, it's only one hundred or
so pages, but it really tries to give a paradigm
shift for how you should lead in the face of
all of the attempts to steer and sabotage you when
you seek to be a faithful leader.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That is very interesting. Wow, as you begin a project
like this, I'm curious to know your writing process. Is there,
is there a spark? Is this a ministry? Is there
an idea? Is is it a question? You are often
asked by parishioners or people by email? And then how
do how does that work from from there to the
(03:44):
very difficult task that few have done, which is completing
the work?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah? Usually, you know, So, I'm a teacher, professor by
by trade. That's my main vocation, and so I usually
teaching reading things, and I'm teaching in classes and that's
where I kind of refined my ideas and they also
get refined in sermons and in counseling sessions with parishioners,
and so that's where the that all bubbles up. And
eventually there's usually a spark, either a request or in
(04:14):
this case, the publisher said, hey, would you be interested
in doing some videos for their website for their streaming
service called Canon Plus. If you're lead listeners are interested,
it's called Cannon Plus. It's like a kind of a
combination of Audible and Netflix, but for wholesome Christian family content.
And of yeah, Canon c A N O N plus
(04:40):
p l U S cannonplus dot com and and they
asked if I would do a series of basically teachings
lessons on things that I'd done on leadership, and so
I said sure, And so I put together a series
of six lessons. And as I completed those and delivered them,
I realized, you know, if I think if I were
to fill this out, I'd have a nice book. And
(05:00):
so I did. I added about another ten thousand words
or so, and that became Leadership and Emotional Sabotage. So
it's usually that sort of process of coming out of
my teaching and then being refined, and then the spark
of the moment arises when I'm able to actually complete
(05:21):
the project.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
What is your time? I ask all authors this, So
what is your time that you write? Is it just
when it comes to you or do you set a
specific time? And how long is that? I'm always curious.
Everybody has a different writing process.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Usually I let ideas germinate for a while, and then
I'll usually do a kind of writing retreat. I'll block
off a few days where I really try to immerse
myself and I'll think carefully about structure. Sometimes deadlines force
things upon me. So I have a chapter that I
need to complete by a certain time, or a sermon
that I need to complete by a certain day. Sometimes
my speaking opportunities give mepunity, an opportunity to to pull
(06:01):
together content to deliver in a forty five minute window,
and that kind of forces me to get everything together.
So those are all various ways that I'm kind of
forced to pull things together in order to deliver them
to who needs them.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Ernest Himingway in talking about because such a prolific writer,
his advice to other writers was, every day, say one
honest thing, make one offer one honest sentence, and if
you have another honest sentence to add to it, great
(06:39):
And as long as you can add an honest sentence
to that you are writing. But he was clear that
some days there may only be one honest sentence. The
woman walked into the room and sat down and was
beheld by all the people. Okay, that's it. I was
curious with your writing process if that tends to be
(07:00):
in chunks, or if that is the discipline. Because we
all have a book in us right, whether we get
it out or not. So many people journal Marcus Latrell,
dear friend, of mine. Lone Survivor was based on the
fact that, thank goodness, since he was eight years old,
he'd kept a journal, and he did throughout you know,
his ordeal. So this was a guy who made it
a habit, always write, and his writing became a bestseller
(07:22):
and a big movie and all sorts of things. I'm
curious about the discipline it takes to complete that process,
and not just yours, which which which has a Christian perspective.
We all have a story to tell in writing. Ray
Bradbury's Fahrenheit you know what was about the idea that
(07:42):
when the books are gone, the knowledge is gone, and
then you can recreate, you know, your own truth. We'll
continue our conversation with doctor Joe Rigney.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Don't you call me? Don't you call me a chicken?
Michael Marry.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Doctor Joe Rigney is our guest. He is the pastor
of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, is a fellow of
theology at New Saint Andrew's Church, and he is an author.
We talked earlier about his book The Sin of Empathy,
which spoke to me in my theory of the Naive Neighbor.
We also talked about his book which is his bestseller
yet Leadership and Emotional Savage Sabotage, not savage leadership and
(08:25):
emotional sabotage, something that probably speaks to a number of you.
His third book going Backward is Courage, How the Gospel
Creates Christian Fortitude. It feels like Christians today are being
slapped around, particularly the very strong influence of Islam into
previously dominantly Christian nations, and it feels that Christians are
(08:50):
somewhat cowardly, afraid to stand up. Well, we've had it
so good and from many of us, we're so white
that we don't want to be a strong Christian and
we're ashamed. We don't want to be the oppressor. And
that's not what my Bible commands me. That's not taking
up your cross, that is not suffering, that is not
going you there for and preaching and witnessing and sharing
(09:14):
against the tides and against the shame. It's necessary, it's
part of the process. So tell me about Courage, How
the Gospel Creates Christian Fortitude.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, well, that was the book that I was asked
to write because of various sermons that I'd given, and
that way, it really is driven by this reality that
living is Christ and dying is gain. And if dying
is gain, it means you have nothing to fear and
you can just go for it. And the Bible is
filled with these exhortations. Think of the beginning of the
(09:45):
Book of Joshua. Be strong, in curatious, courageous. Why because
the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.
So God's presence is meant to be an empowerment for
our own strength and courage as we face the challenges
that are put before us. And we do live in
an age when which people are afraid, in which their
cowardice is often it's masked in various ways. No one
(10:07):
wants to admit that they're a coward's shameful, but we
can find all sorts of ways to excuse our cowardice
in the name of prudence or wisdom. In fact, I
saw a quote the other day where someone says, when
courage is needed, the coward says that what's needed is prudence,
and I thought, that's that's pretty right. People often use
(10:27):
other good things as excuses to avoid doing hard things,
and so in that book, I'm simply trying to show
failures of courage places where in the scriptures, people did
fear and that courage. Both cowardice and courage are are contagious,
which is why it really matters how many people went
along with all sorts of folly over the last ten
or fifteen years, say in their workplace, and all it
(10:49):
would have taken is one person standing up and saying,
I don't think this is right. I think that this
is crazy. I think that this is unjust, and they
would have discovered that there were a whole lot of
other people who were thinking that, but we're afraid to
say so. And I think that there's a number of
churches that discovered this through COVID whose numbers swelled as
they were willing to resist the kind of COVID tyranny
(11:10):
that came down from a number of states. Yes, and
their simple willingness to say, you know what, we're going
to meet it matters, we need to worship God together.
And their willingness to simply plant a flag and say
we're going to do this despite what the government is saying.
Rallied people to their banner. And whereas churches that compromised
and that were kind of cowardly and went along with
(11:33):
a lot of folly in a whole host of ways
have found their numbers dwindling.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
We had a pastor on Ramon. Do you remember where
he was somewhere in Canada, and he was something like Albanian,
so he had very heavily accented English and he kind
of yelled when he spoke. He was very intense, he
was older, and they can't. They burst into his church
and he started screaming at them, and I think he
was Jewish, and I think he was basically saying, and
(12:00):
this is what the Nazis did, and this is exactly,
and we're going to stand up to you. You're not
going to do this. And they didn't know what to do, right.
These these officers are real tough until somebody pushes back
and then they're not. And it was amazing the strength
of character and conviction this man, and we had him
on multiple times. I think he has since died. But
his point was, my Bible urges me to open not
(12:23):
despite COVID or not not despite COVID. Because of COVID.
We need the church more now than ever. And it
was it was a great point.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right, that's that's absolutely right. And we see this kind
of example in the scriptures in the both in Christ
and in the Apostle Paul. The Apostle Paul, everywhere he
went he ran into mobs, he ran into opposition from
the authorities, he ran into persecution, and he never he
never shrank from it. He welcomed it, and he saw
(12:52):
it as an opportunity to testify to what God had
called him to testify. And so there's a number of
places in which we see him. For example, at one
point in the Book of Acts, he's just been beaten
by a mob, and then when the cops show up,
they arrest him for getting beaten, which is how it
typically goes, and as he's being carried off, he actually
pauses and asks the Roman tribute, could I say something
(13:14):
to the people. So here you have a moment in
which he's just been beaten, he's being taken to jail,
and what he's thinking about is this is an opportunity
for me to address these people, to try to once
again testify to what Christ has done for me. And
he gives his testimony, and he end that testimony and
they you want to kill him again. But the point
is he took the shot. He was not afraid because
of these circumstances, and it didn't lead him to shrink
(13:35):
back in fear, but instead he stepped up to the
play why because he knew God is with me, God
is for me, and this is what God has called
me to do, and he will equip me to do it.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And if God before me, who can be against me?
And once you fully understand that, you don't need to
fear anything else, it does not mean they're not going
to kill you. It does not mean they're not going
to stone you, or that you're not going to suffer.
But that is sometimes righteous, and I believe that in
my heart of hearts. It's probably why my three heroes
(14:07):
growing up were all killed for their conviction, one of
whom was resurrected. But I guess that message has always
meant a lot to me, and it's always meant I
respect Trump for the fact that no matter the more
they push him, the harder he comes back. And there
are very few people who would have done that. Most
(14:28):
people would have taken the message and gone away. Someone
who can stay in the fight. I'll tell you the
guy that I admire you've had some association with Colorado
is a masterpiece cake. Guy in Colorado They destroyed that
man's business, they bankrupted him and all because they bake
a cake. Boy, and he said, no, I can't. I'll
see you next door. I'll pay for the cake, I'll
(14:48):
do it, but I won't do it. And he just
stays in there and keeps going, and they keep tormenting
that poor man.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
That's absolutely right, and it's a in his case, it's
not a lot demanding courage. It's a simply quiet resolve
to do what's right. And the reality is is that
you're going to fear somebody, The question is whom. So
it's not that we don't have any fear. It's that
we fear God first, and then when we face opposition
from men, we may even feel some fear. But one
(15:18):
of the things I point out in that book is
that courage is not the absence of fear, it's the
mastery of it. The fear may be present and maybe palpable,
you can feel it rising up in your gut. But
what God calls us to do is to trust him,
and by entrusting him, to have the fortitude of mind
to subdue our fears and continue to act for the
good that He's called us to. Even in the face
(15:38):
of dangers and opposition, and you saw that. You see
that with Jack Phelps, you see that with a number
of other folks who have not gone looking for a fight.
They're not brawlers, they're not quarrelsome, and they're not looking
to be culture warriors of any sense. He just wanted
to bake his cakes, but God called him to it
by circumstances, and he was willing to be faithful at
(15:59):
it post.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And you have been faithful as a guest to the truth,
and we have enjoyed having you. We will have you
back again, Doctor Joe Rigney, You're wonderful. Thank you, Sir.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Duc King of ding It. And this other guy, Michael Barry,
this is the kind of guy.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
You're like a smacking ass.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
You know, wanting share. No.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I think back to President Trump's statement, You're gonna get
tired of winning. And I don't think anybody is tired
of winning. But I do think it's unfortunate that people
are not aware of how much President Trump is doing
in a day. And the reason is you just don't
(16:44):
have the bandwidth, None of us do. I don't have
the time to tell you about everything he's doing. I
go through my notes and I circle things that I
haven't been to, and I come across this. I don't
know that I aver even announce. President Trump signed an
executive order ending gain of function, which is stressing a
(17:08):
virus to the point that it either morphs or dies off.
And if it morphs, we see what it becomes. That's
how they created the Wuhan virus, which we call COVID
that was manufactured. It's like they're testing nuclear weapons and
(17:29):
they're accidentally detonating them. And I thought to myself, I'm
not even sure I ever brought that up, because there
would have been ten other things going on that day.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
The first relates to gain of function research. Gain of
function research is a type of biomedical research where pathogens
are adulterated viruses or adulterated to make them more potent
or to change the way that they function exact. Many
people believe that gain of function research was one of
(18:02):
the key causes of the COVID pandemic that struck us
in the last decade. What this executive order does, first
of all, it provides powerful new tools to enforce the
ban on federal funding for gain of function research abroad.
It also strengthens other oversight mechanisms related to that issue,
(18:24):
and creates an overarching strategy to ensure that biomedical research
in general is being conducted safely and in a way
that ultimately protects human health more.
Speaker 7 (18:37):
It's a big deal.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
Could have been that we wouldn't have had the problem.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
We had a lot of people say that, sir, we
had this done earlier, thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
So I had a doctor tell me I'm not authorized
to use his statement. In fact, this doctor asked, did
I not use this tatement that I'm not credit it anyway.
So the doctor's statement was patients will come to him
and ask for treatment due to a pain or whatever
(19:13):
the issue, and he will perform a procedure to alleviate
the pain. I'll live at that. I don't want to
go in the specialty. And before they do that, his
office will contact the insurance company and say, are you
going to pay let's say United health Care for this procedure.
(19:37):
Here is what the doctor thinks he needs and why,
And they either won't answer, in which the case you
can't get the procedure because you can't afford it on
your own, or they'll say yes, we'll approve it. Doctor
performs the procedure and then they say, no, we're not
paying for it. Okay, so somebody's got to wear this hickey.
(20:00):
Is it the patient who now has to pay for
something that they thought their insurance was going to pay
and maybe they don't have that money. Is it the doctor?
Because that would have the chilling effect of doctors not
performing surgeries anymore, which is already happening. Mind you. So,
doctor Elizabeth Potter recorded herself calling United Healthcare or what's
(20:21):
called a peer to peer review to get approval to
perform a patient surgery. It's the case I just told
you about. It's that type of case. It's happening all over.
She didn't record this call because she had a feeling
of how it would go. She recorded it because she
(20:42):
knew from experience how it would go. This is what
is wrong with healthcare today is the insurance companies are
providing the healthcare, not the doctors.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Hey, it's Sutra Potter. Can you just tell me your
name one more time. I'm sorry you won't give me
your name. I don't understand the relationship. I'm just asking
for your name so that I know what doctor i'm
speaking with. If we're doing a peer to peer I
just want to know who you are, so United won't
let you give your name out for security reasons. Can
(21:18):
you tell me what specialty you are? Did you do
breast reconstruction? You did not do breast reconstruction?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (21:24):
Is it her plan that's not allowing her to have
this or United to just have a plan exclusion? Can
you send me that evaluation? Like, can I see their
reasoning and thought process when they've reviewed the literature to
see what they reviewed? I mean, you understand, this is
this patient's one chance to have sensation preserved. And I
(21:45):
do think that it's very reasonable to do this As
a fellowship train microsurgeon, I think it's very reasonable to
dissect out the fourth intercostal nerve and to graph that
to the dramatic sensory elements on the nipple to try
to give her this chance. Yeah, I would just love
to see where United has gone through that data. I mean,
(22:06):
I'm a physician. I'm a doctor, and I feel like
I'm making a medical decision for my patient. It seems
like United is making a medical determination about this, and
I don't exactly know how that works, right, It seems
like they're practicing medicine. I just want to read it
like a paper, right, and see what the references are
so I can understand. Can you email it to me?
(22:29):
You're not allowed to email it to me. It's an
internal resource. I mean there's data from twenty twenty three
and twenty twenty four showing that this is effective.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
I really would love to read that and see what
United is using as the data to support that. And
this is her only chance, right, Okay, Yeah, I'll do
an internal appeal. Yeah, and I appreciate your time. And
I'm so sorry that y'all aren't allowed to get out
(23:01):
your dreams as a fellow physician like I would love
to be able to talk to you like you were
a here back. It's crazy. Yeah, well that's some luck
to you, and I appreciate what will appeal.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I'm not sure what your question was, Michael Berry. I
lost the plot somewhere, you did. President hasn't, to my knowledge,
gone back to a statement he made a week or
so ago about the Nordstream pipeline. But this is very important.
(23:37):
There are a lot of things Trump knows that he
would like to expose, but they take a lot of work.
The nord Stream pipeline provided moved gas is a gas
or oil? I need to check on that. Maybe it's
oil across Europe. And the question was it blew up?
(24:04):
And the argument was that Biden had allowed this, not
Biden himself but his administration in order to harm the Russians.
And President Trump made the statement that that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
Two and a half years ago, the North streamline blew up.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
And despite the people like John Brennan and all the
offs said, you were one person who said Russia probably
did not blow up its own Well.
Speaker 8 (24:35):
If you can believe they said Russia blew it up. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
And so I'm wondering, not that your president, if you
would consider launching a formal.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Investigation into what happened and who.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Actually did blow it up?
Speaker 8 (24:45):
Well, probably if I asked certain people, I'd be able
to tell you without having to waste a lot of
money on an investigation. But I think a lot of
people know who blew it up. But I was the
one that blew it up originally because I wouldn't let
it be built. And then when Biden got and he
allowed it to be built. And it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Now, why does this matter, because our government is engaged
in behaviors that we talk about, say a Putin for instance,
or some other world leader engaging in as being wrong, unethical, fraudulent,
(25:27):
and yet our government under Biden is doing those sorts
of things. President Trump was asked if Mexico wanted help
with the cartels with the United States lend a hand,
and I want you to listen to what he says.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
So Mexico is saying that I offered to send US
troops into Mexico to take care of the cartown. She
wants to know is that true? Do you think I'm
going to answer that question. I will answer it. It's true, absolutely,
because they should be. They are horrible people that have
(26:04):
been killing people left and right, that have been They've
made a fortunate on selling drugs and destroying our people,
who lost three hundred thousand people last year to fifth
in all the drugs the bads. Yeah, that's true. If
Mexico wanted help with the cartels, we would be honored.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
To go in and do it.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I told her that I would be honored.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
To go and to do it.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
The cartels had tried to destroy our country. They're evil,
and you know, we had three hundred thousand people died
last year from tens of dollars and all that, we
had hundreds, We had billions of people brought into this
country that shouldn't be here. The cartel's brought her out.
So if she said that I offered to do that,
she's one hundred percent rugs. Well, she's so afraid of
(26:48):
the cartel she can't walk.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So that's the reason.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
And I think she's a lovely woman. But the president
of Mexico is a lovely woman, but she is so
afraid of the cartels that you can't even think.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Mexico cannot handle the cartels, by the way, but they
also don't want to confront them. And Mexico's leader has
said she doesn't want President's Trump President Trump's help, but
she also recognizes they can't stop the cartels. They don't
want a war with the cartels. The most dangerous criminal
(27:23):
organization in the world is on our southern border. The
cartels had a guy they had the CIA come in
and brief their organization recently, and they were they were
able to ask questions of the CIA agents off the record,
(27:43):
and one of them said, what's the most dangerous organization
where your agents can operate, and the agent responded to
the nods of his peers. It's not China, it's not
the Soviet Union or Russia, it's not North Korea. It's cartels.
(28:03):
And let me tell you why. Because if you have
to kill a cartel member, if you kill somebody in China,
your government gets you out of there. You kill somebody
in Russia, your government gets you out of there. North Korea,
your government gets you out of there. You come home,
you're safe. The cartels are the organization that can put
(28:24):
people on your block, in your street, in your kids' school.
They have infiltrated the United States, and there's no doubt
about that. Do you remember Tom Holman's message to illegals
in the cartels in Mexico at the Republican National Convention,
which was less than a year ago. Hard to believe.
Speaker 7 (28:42):
As a guy who spent thirty four years departing illego aliens.
I got a message to the demands of illegal aliens
that Joe Biden's released in our country in violation of
federal law. You better start packing now. You're damn right,
because you are going home.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Now.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
I got another message, another message to the criminal cartels
in Mexico. You're smuggling, not venting, off across this country
to kill one hundred and forty eight thousand young Americans.
You have killed more Americans and every terrorist organization in
the world combined. And that's when President Trump gets back
in office, he's going to designate you a terrorist organization
(29:25):
and he's going to wipe you off the face of
the earth.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You're done. You're done.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Remember President Trump designated the cartels as foreign terrorist organizations
on day one. Now what's crazy is why weren't they already.
They're the most dangerous in the world. They're certainly the
most dangerous to us.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
This is actually an executive order designating the cartels and
other organizations to be foreign terrorist organizations.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
It's a big one, goes sertain people have wanted to
do this years. So they are now designated as terrorist
organizations foreign and Mexico probably doesn't want that, but we
have to do what's right. They're killing our people. They're
(30:18):
killing two hundred and fifty three hundred thousand American people
a year, not one hundred like has been reported for
fifteen years. It's probably three hundred thousand
Doctor Joe, pastor at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, has
(00:04):
written eight books, the aforementioned Sin of Empathy and now
the book Leadership and Emotional Sabotage. Take us back to
why this is necessary? What does emotional sabotage have to
do with leadership?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Of agitation and angst and turmoil and disruption? Everybody, I think,
feels a sense that no one's in control and that
things are running all different ways. And as a result,
the leaders who are meant to act as the shock
absorbers for society can easily begin to abdicate their responsibility
to steward their institutions. That happens in homes, it happens
(00:45):
in churches, it happens in schools, and it happens in nations.
And so in that book, I'm seeking to kind of
diagnose that problem, What are its roots? Why do we
feel like we're sitting on this powder keg? And then
to offer solutions, what does it mean to be courageous?
And so reminded in the midst of this agitation And
the basic paradine I offer there is that we live
in a society that has become drunk on passions. Passions
(01:08):
are our emotions are immediate and instinctive emotions. When you
see something good, you want it. When you see something scary,
you fear it. When you see something sad, you grieve it.
And our passions, we can become drunk on them, they
become in the driver's seat. And I instead want to
argue that one of the core virtues we have to
recover is sober mindedness. We need to be sober, We
(01:32):
need to sober up, which means that we have a
clarity of mind and that we're stable. We have a
stability in our souls that anchors us when these big
anxiety storms and social stampedes run across our path and
we're ready to act, We're ready to lean in. We
don't advocate in our passive, but instead we step up
to the plate and we have the courage to follow
through and fulfill the responsibilities that God has given to us.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
What has been the reaction of leaders, whether in the church,
the corporate world, education, or politics, to this book? Have
there been people who said, I didn't recognize I was
subjected to this. I didn't recognize this was a cancer
upon me. I disagree with you. What what have folks said?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, so this time I you know, you mentioned that
I mentioned I've written about eight books. Leadership and Emotional
Sabotage is by far the best selling. It's it's really
struck a nerve and it's kind of taken on a
life of its own. It's surprising to me the places
I've I've come across that I haven't I've had I
would have no connection to otherwise. I'm a I'm a
pastor in a small town and a small Christian school.
(02:41):
This was a book published by a small Christian publisher,
and I know that cabinet secretaries, pastors of megachurches, uh,
you know, colonels, and generals in the military are reading
it in order to help them lead the institutions that
they're a part of. So it's been it's been surprising
to me the the places that this book has been
(03:01):
able to get because I think partly the title is catchy,
thanks publisher.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And it's a short book, it's only one hundred or
so pages, but it really tries to give a paradigm
shift for how you should lead in the face of
all of the attempts to steer and sabotage you when
you seek to be a faithful leader.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That is very interesting. Wow, as you begin a project
like this, I'm curious to know your writing process. Is there,
is there a spark? Is this a ministry? Is there
an idea? Is is it a question? You are often
asked by parishioners or people by email? And then how
do how does that work from from there to the
(03:44):
very difficult task that few have done, which is completing
the work?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah? Usually, you know, So, I'm a teacher, professor by
by trade. That's my main vocation, and so I usually
teaching reading things, and I'm teaching in classes and that's
where I kind of refined my ideas and they also
get refined in sermons and in counseling sessions with parishioners,
and so that's where the that all bubbles up. And
eventually there's usually a spark, either a request or in
(04:14):
this case, the publisher said, hey, would you be interested
in doing some videos for their website for their streaming
service called Canon Plus. If you're lead listeners are interested,
it's called Cannon Plus. It's like a kind of a
combination of Audible and Netflix, but for wholesome Christian family content.
And of yeah, Canon c A N O N plus
(04:40):
p l U S cannonplus dot com and and they
asked if I would do a series of basically teachings
lessons on things that I'd done on leadership, and so
I said sure, And so I put together a series
of six lessons. And as I completed those and delivered them,
I realized, you know, if I think if I were
to fill this out, I'd have a nice book. And
(05:00):
so I did. I added about another ten thousand words
or so, and that became Leadership and Emotional Sabotage. So
it's usually that sort of process of coming out of
my teaching and then being refined, and then the spark
of the moment arises when I'm able to actually complete
(05:21):
the project.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
What is your time? I ask all authors this, So
what is your time that you write? Is it just
when it comes to you or do you set a
specific time? And how long is that? I'm always curious.
Everybody has a different writing process.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Usually I let ideas germinate for a while, and then
I'll usually do a kind of writing retreat. I'll block
off a few days where I really try to immerse
myself and I'll think carefully about structure. Sometimes deadlines force
things upon me. So I have a chapter that I
need to complete by a certain time, or a sermon
that I need to complete by a certain day. Sometimes
my speaking opportunities give mepunity, an opportunity to to pull
(06:01):
together content to deliver in a forty five minute window,
and that kind of forces me to get everything together.
So those are all various ways that I'm kind of
forced to pull things together in order to deliver them
to who needs them.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Ernest Himingway in talking about because such a prolific writer,
his advice to other writers was, every day, say one
honest thing, make one offer one honest sentence, and if
you have another honest sentence to add to it, great
(06:39):
And as long as you can add an honest sentence
to that you are writing. But he was clear that
some days there may only be one honest sentence. The
woman walked into the room and sat down and was
beheld by all the people. Okay, that's it. I was
curious with your writing process if that tends to be
(07:00):
in chunks, or if that is the discipline. Because we
all have a book in us right, whether we get
it out or not. So many people journal Marcus Latrell,
dear friend, of mine. Lone Survivor was based on the
fact that, thank goodness, since he was eight years old,
he'd kept a journal, and he did throughout you know,
his ordeal. So this was a guy who made it
a habit, always write, and his writing became a bestseller
(07:22):
and a big movie and all sorts of things. I'm
curious about the discipline it takes to complete that process,
and not just yours, which which which has a Christian perspective.
We all have a story to tell in writing. Ray
Bradbury's Fahrenheit you know what was about the idea that
(07:42):
when the books are gone, the knowledge is gone, and
then you can recreate, you know, your own truth. We'll
continue our conversation with doctor Joe Rigney.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Don't you call me? Don't you call me a chicken?
Michael Marry.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Doctor Joe Rigney is our guest. He is the pastor
of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, is a fellow of
theology at New Saint Andrew's Church, and he is an author.
We talked earlier about his book The Sin of Empathy,
which spoke to me in my theory of the Naive Neighbor.
We also talked about his book which is his bestseller
yet Leadership and Emotional Savage Sabotage, not savage leadership and
(08:25):
emotional sabotage, something that probably speaks to a number of you.
His third book going Backward is Courage, How the Gospel
Creates Christian Fortitude. It feels like Christians today are being
slapped around, particularly the very strong influence of Islam into
previously dominantly Christian nations, and it feels that Christians are
(08:50):
somewhat cowardly, afraid to stand up. Well, we've had it
so good and from many of us, we're so white
that we don't want to be a strong Christian and
we're ashamed. We don't want to be the oppressor. And
that's not what my Bible commands me. That's not taking
up your cross, that is not suffering, that is not
going you there for and preaching and witnessing and sharing
(09:14):
against the tides and against the shame. It's necessary, it's
part of the process. So tell me about Courage, How
the Gospel Creates Christian Fortitude.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, well, that was the book that I was asked
to write because of various sermons that I'd given, and
that way, it really is driven by this reality that
living is Christ and dying is gain. And if dying
is gain, it means you have nothing to fear and
you can just go for it. And the Bible is
filled with these exhortations. Think of the beginning of the
(09:45):
Book of Joshua. Be strong, in curatious, courageous. Why because
the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.
So God's presence is meant to be an empowerment for
our own strength and courage as we face the challenges
that are put before us. And we do live in
an age when which people are afraid, in which their
cowardice is often it's masked in various ways. No one
(10:07):
wants to admit that they're a coward's shameful, but we
can find all sorts of ways to excuse our cowardice
in the name of prudence or wisdom. In fact, I
saw a quote the other day where someone says, when
courage is needed, the coward says that what's needed is prudence,
and I thought, that's that's pretty right. People often use
(10:27):
other good things as excuses to avoid doing hard things,
and so in that book, I'm simply trying to show
failures of courage places where in the scriptures, people did
fear and that courage. Both cowardice and courage are are contagious,
which is why it really matters how many people went
along with all sorts of folly over the last ten
or fifteen years, say in their workplace, and all it
(10:49):
would have taken is one person standing up and saying,
I don't think this is right. I think that this
is crazy. I think that this is unjust, and they
would have discovered that there were a whole lot of
other people who were thinking that, but we're afraid to
say so. And I think that there's a number of
churches that discovered this through COVID whose numbers swelled as
they were willing to resist the kind of COVID tyranny
(11:10):
that came down from a number of states. Yes, and
their simple willingness to say, you know what, we're going
to meet it matters, we need to worship God together.
And their willingness to simply plant a flag and say
we're going to do this despite what the government is saying.
Rallied people to their banner. And whereas churches that compromised
and that were kind of cowardly and went along with
(11:33):
a lot of folly in a whole host of ways
have found their numbers dwindling.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
We had a pastor on Ramon. Do you remember where
he was somewhere in Canada, and he was something like Albanian,
so he had very heavily accented English and he kind
of yelled when he spoke. He was very intense, he
was older, and they can't. They burst into his church
and he started screaming at them, and I think he
was Jewish, and I think he was basically saying, and
(12:00):
this is what the Nazis did, and this is exactly,
and we're going to stand up to you. You're not
going to do this. And they didn't know what to do, right.
These these officers are real tough until somebody pushes back
and then they're not. And it was amazing the strength
of character and conviction this man, and we had him
on multiple times. I think he has since died. But
his point was, my Bible urges me to open not
(12:23):
despite COVID or not not despite COVID. Because of COVID.
We need the church more now than ever. And it
was it was a great point.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right, that's that's absolutely right. And we see this kind
of example in the scriptures in the both in Christ
and in the Apostle Paul. The Apostle Paul, everywhere he
went he ran into mobs, he ran into opposition from
the authorities, he ran into persecution, and he never he
never shrank from it. He welcomed it, and he saw
(12:52):
it as an opportunity to testify to what God had
called him to testify. And so there's a number of
places in which we see him. For example, at one
point in the Book of Acts, he's just been beaten
by a mob, and then when the cops show up,
they arrest him for getting beaten, which is how it
typically goes, and as he's being carried off, he actually
pauses and asks the Roman tribute, could I say something
(13:14):
to the people. So here you have a moment in
which he's just been beaten, he's being taken to jail,
and what he's thinking about is this is an opportunity
for me to address these people, to try to once
again testify to what Christ has done for me. And
he gives his testimony, and he end that testimony and
they you want to kill him again. But the point
is he took the shot. He was not afraid because
of these circumstances, and it didn't lead him to shrink
(13:35):
back in fear, but instead he stepped up to the
play why because he knew God is with me, God
is for me, and this is what God has called
me to do, and he will equip me to do it.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And if God before me, who can be against me?
And once you fully understand that, you don't need to
fear anything else, it does not mean they're not going
to kill you. It does not mean they're not going
to stone you, or that you're not going to suffer.
But that is sometimes righteous, and I believe that in
my heart of hearts. It's probably why my three heroes
(14:07):
growing up were all killed for their conviction, one of
whom was resurrected. But I guess that message has always
meant a lot to me, and it's always meant I
respect Trump for the fact that no matter the more
they push him, the harder he comes back. And there
are very few people who would have done that. Most
(14:28):
people would have taken the message and gone away. Someone
who can stay in the fight. I'll tell you the
guy that I admire you've had some association with Colorado
is a masterpiece cake. Guy in Colorado They destroyed that
man's business, they bankrupted him and all because they bake
a cake. Boy, and he said, no, I can't. I'll
see you next door. I'll pay for the cake, I'll
(14:48):
do it, but I won't do it. And he just
stays in there and keeps going, and they keep tormenting
that poor man.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
That's absolutely right, and it's a in his case, it's
not a lot demanding courage. It's a simply quiet resolve
to do what's right. And the reality is is that
you're going to fear somebody, The question is whom. So
it's not that we don't have any fear. It's that
we fear God first, and then when we face opposition
from men, we may even feel some fear. But one
(15:18):
of the things I point out in that book is
that courage is not the absence of fear, it's the
mastery of it. The fear may be present and maybe palpable,
you can feel it rising up in your gut. But
what God calls us to do is to trust him,
and by entrusting him, to have the fortitude of mind
to subdue our fears and continue to act for the
good that He's called us to. Even in the face
(15:38):
of dangers and opposition, and you saw that. You see
that with Jack Phelps, you see that with a number
of other folks who have not gone looking for a fight.
They're not brawlers, they're not quarrelsome, and they're not looking
to be culture warriors of any sense. He just wanted
to bake his cakes, but God called him to it
by circumstances, and he was willing to be faithful at
(15:59):
it post.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And you have been faithful as a guest to the truth,
and we have enjoyed having you. We will have you
back again, Doctor Joe Rigney, You're wonderful. Thank you, Sir.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Duc King of ding It. And this other guy, Michael Barry,
this is the kind of guy.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
You're like a smacking ass.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
You know, wanting share. No.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I think back to President Trump's statement, You're gonna get
tired of winning. And I don't think anybody is tired
of winning. But I do think it's unfortunate that people
are not aware of how much President Trump is doing
in a day. And the reason is you just don't
(16:44):
have the bandwidth, None of us do. I don't have
the time to tell you about everything he's doing. I
go through my notes and I circle things that I
haven't been to, and I come across this. I don't
know that I aver even announce. President Trump signed an
executive order ending gain of function, which is stressing a
(17:08):
virus to the point that it either morphs or dies off.
And if it morphs, we see what it becomes. That's
how they created the Wuhan virus, which we call COVID
that was manufactured. It's like they're testing nuclear weapons and
(17:29):
they're accidentally detonating them. And I thought to myself, I'm
not even sure I ever brought that up, because there
would have been ten other things going on that day.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
The first relates to gain of function research. Gain of
function research is a type of biomedical research where pathogens
are adulterated viruses or adulterated to make them more potent
or to change the way that they function exact. Many
people believe that gain of function research was one of
(18:02):
the key causes of the COVID pandemic that struck us
in the last decade. What this executive order does, first
of all, it provides powerful new tools to enforce the
ban on federal funding for gain of function research abroad.
It also strengthens other oversight mechanisms related to that issue,
(18:24):
and creates an overarching strategy to ensure that biomedical research
in general is being conducted safely and in a way
that ultimately protects human health more.
Speaker 7 (18:37):
It's a big deal.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
Could have been that we wouldn't have had the problem.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
We had a lot of people say that, sir, we
had this done earlier, thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
So I had a doctor tell me I'm not authorized
to use his statement. In fact, this doctor asked, did
I not use this tatement that I'm not credit it anyway.
So the doctor's statement was patients will come to him
and ask for treatment due to a pain or whatever
(19:13):
the issue, and he will perform a procedure to alleviate
the pain. I'll live at that. I don't want to
go in the specialty. And before they do that, his
office will contact the insurance company and say, are you
going to pay let's say United health Care for this procedure.
(19:37):
Here is what the doctor thinks he needs and why,
And they either won't answer, in which the case you
can't get the procedure because you can't afford it on
your own, or they'll say yes, we'll approve it. Doctor
performs the procedure and then they say, no, we're not
paying for it. Okay, so somebody's got to wear this hickey.
(20:00):
Is it the patient who now has to pay for
something that they thought their insurance was going to pay
and maybe they don't have that money. Is it the doctor?
Because that would have the chilling effect of doctors not
performing surgeries anymore, which is already happening. Mind you. So,
doctor Elizabeth Potter recorded herself calling United Healthcare or what's
(20:21):
called a peer to peer review to get approval to
perform a patient surgery. It's the case I just told
you about. It's that type of case. It's happening all over.
She didn't record this call because she had a feeling
of how it would go. She recorded it because she
(20:42):
knew from experience how it would go. This is what
is wrong with healthcare today is the insurance companies are
providing the healthcare, not the doctors.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Hey, it's Sutra Potter. Can you just tell me your
name one more time. I'm sorry you won't give me
your name. I don't understand the relationship. I'm just asking
for your name so that I know what doctor i'm
speaking with. If we're doing a peer to peer I
just want to know who you are, so United won't
let you give your name out for security reasons. Can
(21:18):
you tell me what specialty you are? Did you do
breast reconstruction? You did not do breast reconstruction?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (21:24):
Is it her plan that's not allowing her to have
this or United to just have a plan exclusion? Can
you send me that evaluation? Like, can I see their
reasoning and thought process when they've reviewed the literature to
see what they reviewed? I mean, you understand, this is
this patient's one chance to have sensation preserved. And I
(21:45):
do think that it's very reasonable to do this As
a fellowship train microsurgeon, I think it's very reasonable to
dissect out the fourth intercostal nerve and to graph that
to the dramatic sensory elements on the nipple to try
to give her this chance. Yeah, I would just love
to see where United has gone through that data. I mean,
(22:06):
I'm a physician. I'm a doctor, and I feel like
I'm making a medical decision for my patient. It seems
like United is making a medical determination about this, and
I don't exactly know how that works, right, It seems
like they're practicing medicine. I just want to read it
like a paper, right, and see what the references are
so I can understand. Can you email it to me?
(22:29):
You're not allowed to email it to me. It's an
internal resource. I mean there's data from twenty twenty three
and twenty twenty four showing that this is effective.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
I really would love to read that and see what
United is using as the data to support that. And
this is her only chance, right, Okay, Yeah, I'll do
an internal appeal. Yeah, and I appreciate your time. And
I'm so sorry that y'all aren't allowed to get out
(23:01):
your dreams as a fellow physician like I would love
to be able to talk to you like you were
a here back. It's crazy. Yeah, well that's some luck
to you, and I appreciate what will appeal.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I'm not sure what your question was, Michael Berry. I
lost the plot somewhere, you did. President hasn't, to my knowledge,
gone back to a statement he made a week or
so ago about the Nordstream pipeline. But this is very important.
(23:37):
There are a lot of things Trump knows that he
would like to expose, but they take a lot of work.
The nord Stream pipeline provided moved gas is a gas
or oil? I need to check on that. Maybe it's
oil across Europe. And the question was it blew up?
(24:04):
And the argument was that Biden had allowed this, not
Biden himself but his administration in order to harm the Russians.
And President Trump made the statement that that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
Two and a half years ago, the North streamline blew up.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
And despite the people like John Brennan and all the
offs said, you were one person who said Russia probably
did not blow up its own Well.
Speaker 8 (24:35):
If you can believe they said Russia blew it up. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
And so I'm wondering, not that your president, if you
would consider launching a formal.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Investigation into what happened and who.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Actually did blow it up?
Speaker 8 (24:45):
Well, probably if I asked certain people, I'd be able
to tell you without having to waste a lot of
money on an investigation. But I think a lot of
people know who blew it up. But I was the
one that blew it up originally because I wouldn't let
it be built. And then when Biden got and he
allowed it to be built. And it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Now, why does this matter, because our government is engaged
in behaviors that we talk about, say a Putin for instance,
or some other world leader engaging in as being wrong, unethical, fraudulent,
(25:27):
and yet our government under Biden is doing those sorts
of things. President Trump was asked if Mexico wanted help
with the cartels with the United States lend a hand,
and I want you to listen to what he says.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
So Mexico is saying that I offered to send US
troops into Mexico to take care of the cartown. She
wants to know is that true? Do you think I'm
going to answer that question. I will answer it. It's true, absolutely,
because they should be. They are horrible people that have
(26:04):
been killing people left and right, that have been They've
made a fortunate on selling drugs and destroying our people,
who lost three hundred thousand people last year to fifth
in all the drugs the bads. Yeah, that's true. If
Mexico wanted help with the cartels, we would be honored.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
To go in and do it.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I told her that I would be honored.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
To go and to do it.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
The cartels had tried to destroy our country. They're evil,
and you know, we had three hundred thousand people died
last year from tens of dollars and all that, we
had hundreds, We had billions of people brought into this
country that shouldn't be here. The cartel's brought her out.
So if she said that I offered to do that,
she's one hundred percent rugs. Well, she's so afraid of
(26:48):
the cartel she can't walk.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So that's the reason.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
And I think she's a lovely woman. But the president
of Mexico is a lovely woman, but she is so
afraid of the cartels that you can't even think.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Mexico cannot handle the cartels, by the way, but they
also don't want to confront them. And Mexico's leader has
said she doesn't want President's Trump President Trump's help, but
she also recognizes they can't stop the cartels. They don't
want a war with the cartels. The most dangerous criminal
(27:23):
organization in the world is on our southern border. The
cartels had a guy they had the CIA come in
and brief their organization recently, and they were they were
able to ask questions of the CIA agents off the record,
(27:43):
and one of them said, what's the most dangerous organization
where your agents can operate, and the agent responded to
the nods of his peers. It's not China, it's not
the Soviet Union or Russia, it's not North Korea. It's cartels.
(28:03):
And let me tell you why. Because if you have
to kill a cartel member, if you kill somebody in China,
your government gets you out of there. You kill somebody
in Russia, your government gets you out of there. North Korea,
your government gets you out of there. You come home,
you're safe. The cartels are the organization that can put
(28:24):
people on your block, in your street, in your kids' school.
They have infiltrated the United States, and there's no doubt
about that. Do you remember Tom Holman's message to illegals
in the cartels in Mexico at the Republican National Convention,
which was less than a year ago. Hard to believe.
Speaker 7 (28:42):
As a guy who spent thirty four years departing illego aliens.
I got a message to the demands of illegal aliens
that Joe Biden's released in our country in violation of
federal law. You better start packing now. You're damn right,
because you are going home.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Now.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
I got another message, another message to the criminal cartels
in Mexico. You're smuggling, not venting, off across this country
to kill one hundred and forty eight thousand young Americans.
You have killed more Americans and every terrorist organization in
the world combined. And that's when President Trump gets back
in office, he's going to designate you a terrorist organization
(29:25):
and he's going to wipe you off the face of
the earth.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You're done. You're done.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Remember President Trump designated the cartels as foreign terrorist organizations
on day one. Now what's crazy is why weren't they already.
They're the most dangerous in the world. They're certainly the
most dangerous to us.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
This is actually an executive order designating the cartels and
other organizations to be foreign terrorist organizations.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
It's a big one, goes sertain people have wanted to
do this years. So they are now designated as terrorist
organizations foreign and Mexico probably doesn't want that, but we
have to do what's right. They're killing our people. They're
(30:18):
killing two hundred and fifty three hundred thousand American people
a year, not one hundred like has been reported for
fifteen years. It's probably three hundred thousand
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