Saturday Bonus Podcast - Milton Friedman Explains Why Taxing The Rich Doesn't Actually Help The Poor
September 20, 2025 • 16 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Michael Barry Show, Welcome to the Weekend Podcast. Honored
to have you here. Has been made clear to me
by a number of our podcast fans that you don't
always get the Weekend podcast on the weekend, which is cool.
The beauty of podcasts, you know, I think I'm fifty
four years old. The beauty of the podcast and the
(00:22):
podcast medium, not just our show, is the idea of
on demand content.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I think about when I was a kid, my brother
and I Thursday evenings. You know, we'd run and jump
on the bean bag and we'd be there ten minutes
early before our show started. Because if you missed your show,
you missed your show. And if you're my age or older,
you remember that the commercials were when you'd run pee
because you couldn't stop the TV. And then there there
(00:52):
was a point where you had the VCR and now
you could you could watch a movie. You could buy
a movie or in a movie and bring it home
and watch it on your terms, so you could watch
it and rewatch it. If there was a scene you
weren't sure about, you could stop and rewind what did
he say? You know, because Marlon Brando in the Godfather
it's a little hard to understand, so you could rewind
and see what he said. Awesome. And then there was
(01:15):
TVO remember tvo, and you could you could record TV
shows and it would it had like that pop up
video sound when you were working on it, and had
the little antenna.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Dude.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That was cool, and you could record your shows and
watch them whenever you wanted. Man, that was a game changer.
And you know, I think through all of these things
and how cool that became. The podcast medium allowed us
as a weekday radio show, we do a morning and
an evening show. It allowed us to give more life
(01:47):
to the same content we created, which was cool, right.
Imagine if you were only a live band and nothing
you did was ever recorded, so you could only build
your audience so much. When the podcast started, a number
of people in radio were panicked that podcasters were going
to cut into our market share. And my point was,
(02:10):
if you're good at what you do, technology shouldn't replace you.
If you're not good at what you do, you deserve
to be replaced. So now a lot of people can
do podcasts that may not be able to do radio
during the week, and not because they weren't good, but
because they make too much money doing something else, or
(02:31):
they're already committed to doing something else. And you look
at the myriad options of podcasts available today, from true
crime to science to travel to history. It's incredible. There's
so many podcasts out there that you can't possibly ever
keep up with how many of them there are, which
(02:54):
is amazing in and of itself. But what the podcast
medium allowed us to do was to be able to
give new life to the same show we had just created.
And now our audience. I don't know if it's if
fifty percent of our audience is now podcast or if
it's more than that, but we grow every day and
we see these we see these maps of where our
(03:17):
listeners come from. And that's why I love to hear
from you. So there's somebody you know in Requiavec and
somebody in Paris, and somebody in Budapest, and eighteen people
in Bucharest and nineteen people in warsaw It it's incredible
and cool. Not Djibouti, Okay, there is a mandjabooty, that's true.
But anyway, wherever you are, whenever you hear this, go
(03:40):
to Michael Berryshow dot Com our website and it says,
send Michael an email, and people think. I don't know
why they think I would lie. I don't know why
why I would, but I read every email and I
love to hear from you. So just tell me where
you listen, where is home to you, and you'll more
likely than not if you start your sentence, you will
(04:01):
get an email back from me. Oh that's cool.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Or I'll tell you the.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
One thing I know about the town where you live.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Or whatever else.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Anyway, enough of that. It is the weekend podcast. There
will be several this weekend. And Milton Friedman is a
hero of mine, who's a hero of Thomas Soul, who's
a professor of thomasol and he is to me the
rock star of modern free market economics. He won the
Nobel Prize back when that mattered. He wrote best selling books.
(04:31):
He spent his career arguing that government interference in the
economy usually causes more problems than it quote unquote fixes,
from inflation, taxes to personal freedom. His ideas absolutely shook
(04:55):
up not just economics, but politics and culture. And to
this day his idea is still fuel debates, and that's
a good thing. Milton Friedman changed the way we think
about money, markets and liberty. For this bonus podcast, we
(05:16):
would like to bring you Milton Friedman explaining how taxing
the rich doesn't actually help the poor. This is not
just a moral argument, it's an argument based on economics,
and I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
The myth the government has benefited the poor at the
expense of the rich.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
That's the myth.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Those are the terms on which many a governmental program
is So what is the reality. The reality has been
described in an article in the Journal of Law and
Economics by my colleague George Stiegler under the title of
Director's Law. And Director is the name of Aaron Director,
who is a professor at the University of Chicago Law School.
(06:08):
And I might also say my brother in law. Director's
law is that almost invariably, government programs benefit the middle
income class at the expense of the very poor and
the very rich. Now that may seem to you strange,
(06:33):
but let me first explain why it makes logical sense,
and second give you some empirical evidence, starting right here
at home with higher education and the state financing of
higher education. On the logical level, you have an econoo
political system under which laws are passed by fifty one
(06:58):
percent of the people voting one against forty nine percent
of the people.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Now, the way to get.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
A law pass, therefore, is to form a coalition covering
fifty one percent of the people. You might think that
you would take the bottom fifty one percent versus the
top forty nine percent, But the more you think about it,
the more you realize that that's not a very effective
way to form a coalition. Why because those people who
are at the bottom tend to be much less skillful
(07:27):
in political activity for the very reasons that leave them
at the bottom in the economic scale. They are at
the bottom of the economic scale because they have low skills,
or low abilities, or low entrepreneurial capacities, or have been
unfortunate to have been born handicapped, or in groups that
are discriminated against. But those same features make them relatively
(07:48):
less effective in political activity. Who are the most effective
people in political activity those of us in the middle
and in the middle classes. Where are the people who
are literate? Where are the people who write for the newspaper,
Where are the people who mount the hustings? Where are
the people who provide the candidates? Well, you might say,
why doesn't the coalition come from the top.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
All the way down fifty one percent.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Well, the answer is the g those people at the top,
that's a place we can get a lot of money from,
and it's worth sacrificing a few votes to get a
large fraction of a tax base. And therefore the logically
most reasonable coalition is sort of fifty one percent of
the people running from the lower middle class through the
(08:31):
upper middle class and leaving out the very rich at
the top and the very part at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Now, it doesn't always work that way.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Sometimes the very rich are able to use their money
to get a effective coalition, but most of the time
that's the way it works. One of my favorite examples
is state finance of higher education. This is always sold
on the ground of providing opportunities to everybody in the
society to get an education, but what are facts. I
(09:01):
doubt that there is any program financed by government in
the United States which is as regressive in its impact
and its financially impact as a financing of higher schooling.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Who are the people who go to school?
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Who are the people who are attending this university? Mostly
people who come from middle, upper middle or lower middle
income class families. If there are a few among you
who come from lower income families, you are going to.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Be among the middle and upper income classes.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
You are the richer among the poor. They are the
people who go to school. They are the people who
get the benefit from it. Your training here will enable
you to get higher incomes than you otherwise come. Who
pays for it, well, you pay for it and your
family and friends pay for it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Not through tuition.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I am told your tuition covers about fifteen percent of
the cost of your schooling. The taxpayers paid for it,
including the people who don't go to school.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Some years ago, there was.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
A study made for the state of California which showed
that fifty percent of the students at state supporting institutions
of higher education came from the top twenty five percent
of the income class, and five percent came from the
bottom twenty five percent of the income class.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I myself am.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
A beneficiary of state support of higher education. I went
through a school that has since become a state university,
Rutgers University in the state of New Jersey, on a
state scholarship. Now, I think I benefited from going to
the university, although I know and I think even maybe
the country at large did, although I know there are
many people who disagree with that, but there's no reason
(10:53):
why I shouldn't have paid for it.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
What are the poor citizens in New Jersey? Gay?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
The day I graduated from college, i left New Jersey
and I've hardly ever been back since. There's a strong
case to be made that everybody who wants to go
to university should have an opportunity to do so, provided
he's willing to pay for it. Not necessarily right now.
It's highly desirable to have arrangements under which he can
(11:21):
borrow now to pay it back later out of a
higher income that his education will make possible. But there
is no justification for imposing taxes on lower income people
to finance the schooling of people who are or will
be in the higher income groups. And yet, how much
(11:42):
political movement is there to impose full cost tuition on colleges.
There is nobody who would have a ghost of a
chance of being elected to a legislature or to the
state house on that program. It's the hardest thing in
the world legislatively to get higher tuitions impost why because
(12:05):
the middle class looks after itself.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Because of Director's Law.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Now what's true for higher education is true in every
other area. Consider social security. Now, social security is also
sold as a.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Program to benefit the poor. What are the facts. Social
Security is.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
A program which imposes unduly heavy taxes on the lower
income groups in the society to provide higher benefits.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
To upper income groups in the society.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
How does it work. It's not because of the regressive
nature of the wage tax. It's not because of the
structure of benefits. It's because of a very simple phenomenon.
At what age do younger men from the lower classes
go to work? Sixteen seventeen, eighteen nineteen, That's when they
start to pay Social Security taxes? At what age are
(12:57):
you people going to go to work and start paying
Social Security taxes? Some of you may in part time
jobs have been doing so, but you will be a
full time social Security payers only when you reach your
middle twenties, so they will pay taxes for the more years.
(13:18):
Then you will pay taxes next, which one is going
to receive benefits for longer. Every demographic study has shown
that the average expected length of life of middle and
upper income classes is longer than the average length to
life of people from the lower income classes. So those
poor suckers are going to pay taxes for more years
(13:43):
and receive payments for fewer years then you and I will.
Now some of us, by virtue of continuing to work
between sixty five and seventy two, will not be in
that favored class. But already the fraction of people who
work between sixty five and seventy two has been cut
(14:03):
to a small part of what it used to be
because of the incentive offered by Social Security, And overall,
there is little doubt therefore, that Social Security is a
program which transfers income from low income classes to high
income classes. Same thing is true of almost every other
social program you can mention. I have often challenged people
(14:27):
to find a single governmental program in which the people
who pay taxes have higher incomes than those who get
the benefits.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I know only one, and that's direct.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Relief, public assistance, the aid to families that dependent children.
It's not a good program, it's a terrible program. It's
a welfare mess. But so far as I can find out,
it's the only program that demonstrably transfers income from higher
income classes to.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Lower income classes. And that's why it's such an unpopular.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
P If you like the Michael Berry Show and Podcast.
Please tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write
a nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and
interest in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be
communicated directly to the show at our email address, Michael
(15:22):
at Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on
our website, Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show
and Podcast is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding.
Executive producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director.
(15:47):
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(16:09):
we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the
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Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and
(16:34):
a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free
counseling
The Michael Barry Show, Welcome to the Weekend Podcast. Honored
to have you here. Has been made clear to me
by a number of our podcast fans that you don't
always get the Weekend podcast on the weekend, which is cool.
The beauty of podcasts, you know, I think I'm fifty
four years old. The beauty of the podcast and the
(00:22):
podcast medium, not just our show, is the idea of
on demand content.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I think about when I was a kid, my brother
and I Thursday evenings. You know, we'd run and jump
on the bean bag and we'd be there ten minutes
early before our show started. Because if you missed your show,
you missed your show. And if you're my age or older,
you remember that the commercials were when you'd run pee
because you couldn't stop the TV. And then there there
(00:52):
was a point where you had the VCR and now
you could you could watch a movie. You could buy
a movie or in a movie and bring it home
and watch it on your terms, so you could watch
it and rewatch it. If there was a scene you
weren't sure about, you could stop and rewind what did
he say? You know, because Marlon Brando in the Godfather
it's a little hard to understand, so you could rewind
and see what he said. Awesome. And then there was
(01:15):
TVO remember tvo, and you could you could record TV
shows and it would it had like that pop up
video sound when you were working on it, and had
the little antenna.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Dude.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That was cool, and you could record your shows and
watch them whenever you wanted. Man, that was a game changer.
And you know, I think through all of these things
and how cool that became. The podcast medium allowed us
as a weekday radio show, we do a morning and
an evening show. It allowed us to give more life
(01:47):
to the same content we created, which was cool, right.
Imagine if you were only a live band and nothing
you did was ever recorded, so you could only build
your audience so much. When the podcast started, a number
of people in radio were panicked that podcasters were going
to cut into our market share. And my point was,
(02:10):
if you're good at what you do, technology shouldn't replace you.
If you're not good at what you do, you deserve
to be replaced. So now a lot of people can
do podcasts that may not be able to do radio
during the week, and not because they weren't good, but
because they make too much money doing something else, or
(02:31):
they're already committed to doing something else. And you look
at the myriad options of podcasts available today, from true
crime to science to travel to history. It's incredible. There's
so many podcasts out there that you can't possibly ever
keep up with how many of them there are, which
(02:54):
is amazing in and of itself. But what the podcast
medium allowed us to do was to be able to
give new life to the same show we had just created.
And now our audience. I don't know if it's if
fifty percent of our audience is now podcast or if
it's more than that, but we grow every day and
we see these we see these maps of where our
(03:17):
listeners come from. And that's why I love to hear
from you. So there's somebody you know in Requiavec and
somebody in Paris, and somebody in Budapest, and eighteen people
in Bucharest and nineteen people in warsaw It it's incredible
and cool. Not Djibouti, Okay, there is a mandjabooty, that's true.
But anyway, wherever you are, whenever you hear this, go
(03:40):
to Michael Berryshow dot Com our website and it says,
send Michael an email, and people think. I don't know
why they think I would lie. I don't know why
why I would, but I read every email and I
love to hear from you. So just tell me where
you listen, where is home to you, and you'll more
likely than not if you start your sentence, you will
(04:01):
get an email back from me. Oh that's cool.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Or I'll tell you the.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
One thing I know about the town where you live.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Or whatever else.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Anyway, enough of that. It is the weekend podcast. There
will be several this weekend. And Milton Friedman is a
hero of mine, who's a hero of Thomas Soul, who's
a professor of thomasol and he is to me the
rock star of modern free market economics. He won the
Nobel Prize back when that mattered. He wrote best selling books.
(04:31):
He spent his career arguing that government interference in the
economy usually causes more problems than it quote unquote fixes,
from inflation, taxes to personal freedom. His ideas absolutely shook
(04:55):
up not just economics, but politics and culture. And to
this day his idea is still fuel debates, and that's
a good thing. Milton Friedman changed the way we think
about money, markets and liberty. For this bonus podcast, we
(05:16):
would like to bring you Milton Friedman explaining how taxing
the rich doesn't actually help the poor. This is not
just a moral argument, it's an argument based on economics,
and I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
The myth the government has benefited the poor at the
expense of the rich.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
That's the myth.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Those are the terms on which many a governmental program
is So what is the reality. The reality has been
described in an article in the Journal of Law and
Economics by my colleague George Stiegler under the title of
Director's Law. And Director is the name of Aaron Director,
who is a professor at the University of Chicago Law School.
(06:08):
And I might also say my brother in law. Director's
law is that almost invariably, government programs benefit the middle
income class at the expense of the very poor and
the very rich. Now that may seem to you strange,
(06:33):
but let me first explain why it makes logical sense,
and second give you some empirical evidence, starting right here
at home with higher education and the state financing of
higher education. On the logical level, you have an econoo
political system under which laws are passed by fifty one
(06:58):
percent of the people voting one against forty nine percent
of the people.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Now, the way to get.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
A law pass, therefore, is to form a coalition covering
fifty one percent of the people. You might think that
you would take the bottom fifty one percent versus the
top forty nine percent, But the more you think about it,
the more you realize that that's not a very effective
way to form a coalition. Why because those people who
are at the bottom tend to be much less skillful
(07:27):
in political activity for the very reasons that leave them
at the bottom in the economic scale. They are at
the bottom of the economic scale because they have low skills,
or low abilities, or low entrepreneurial capacities, or have been
unfortunate to have been born handicapped, or in groups that
are discriminated against. But those same features make them relatively
(07:48):
less effective in political activity. Who are the most effective
people in political activity those of us in the middle
and in the middle classes. Where are the people who
are literate? Where are the people who write for the newspaper,
Where are the people who mount the hustings? Where are
the people who provide the candidates? Well, you might say,
why doesn't the coalition come from the top.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
All the way down fifty one percent.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Well, the answer is the g those people at the top,
that's a place we can get a lot of money from,
and it's worth sacrificing a few votes to get a
large fraction of a tax base. And therefore the logically
most reasonable coalition is sort of fifty one percent of
the people running from the lower middle class through the
(08:31):
upper middle class and leaving out the very rich at
the top and the very part at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Now, it doesn't always work that way.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Sometimes the very rich are able to use their money
to get a effective coalition, but most of the time
that's the way it works. One of my favorite examples
is state finance of higher education. This is always sold
on the ground of providing opportunities to everybody in the
society to get an education, but what are facts. I
(09:01):
doubt that there is any program financed by government in
the United States which is as regressive in its impact
and its financially impact as a financing of higher schooling.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Who are the people who go to school?
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Who are the people who are attending this university? Mostly
people who come from middle, upper middle or lower middle
income class families. If there are a few among you
who come from lower income families, you are going to.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Be among the middle and upper income classes.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
You are the richer among the poor. They are the
people who go to school. They are the people who
get the benefit from it. Your training here will enable
you to get higher incomes than you otherwise come. Who
pays for it, well, you pay for it and your
family and friends pay for it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Not through tuition.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I am told your tuition covers about fifteen percent of
the cost of your schooling. The taxpayers paid for it,
including the people who don't go to school.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Some years ago, there was.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
A study made for the state of California which showed
that fifty percent of the students at state supporting institutions
of higher education came from the top twenty five percent
of the income class, and five percent came from the
bottom twenty five percent of the income class.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I myself am.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
A beneficiary of state support of higher education. I went
through a school that has since become a state university,
Rutgers University in the state of New Jersey, on a
state scholarship. Now, I think I benefited from going to
the university, although I know and I think even maybe
the country at large did, although I know there are
many people who disagree with that, but there's no reason
(10:53):
why I shouldn't have paid for it.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
What are the poor citizens in New Jersey? Gay?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
The day I graduated from college, i left New Jersey
and I've hardly ever been back since. There's a strong
case to be made that everybody who wants to go
to university should have an opportunity to do so, provided
he's willing to pay for it. Not necessarily right now.
It's highly desirable to have arrangements under which he can
(11:21):
borrow now to pay it back later out of a
higher income that his education will make possible. But there
is no justification for imposing taxes on lower income people
to finance the schooling of people who are or will
be in the higher income groups. And yet, how much
(11:42):
political movement is there to impose full cost tuition on colleges.
There is nobody who would have a ghost of a
chance of being elected to a legislature or to the
state house on that program. It's the hardest thing in
the world legislatively to get higher tuitions impost why because
(12:05):
the middle class looks after itself.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Because of Director's Law.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Now what's true for higher education is true in every
other area. Consider social security. Now, social security is also
sold as a.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Program to benefit the poor. What are the facts. Social
Security is.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
A program which imposes unduly heavy taxes on the lower
income groups in the society to provide higher benefits.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
To upper income groups in the society.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
How does it work. It's not because of the regressive
nature of the wage tax. It's not because of the
structure of benefits. It's because of a very simple phenomenon.
At what age do younger men from the lower classes
go to work? Sixteen seventeen, eighteen nineteen, That's when they
start to pay Social Security taxes? At what age are
(12:57):
you people going to go to work and start paying
Social Security taxes? Some of you may in part time
jobs have been doing so, but you will be a
full time social Security payers only when you reach your
middle twenties, so they will pay taxes for the more years.
(13:18):
Then you will pay taxes next, which one is going
to receive benefits for longer. Every demographic study has shown
that the average expected length of life of middle and
upper income classes is longer than the average length to
life of people from the lower income classes. So those
poor suckers are going to pay taxes for more years
(13:43):
and receive payments for fewer years then you and I will.
Now some of us, by virtue of continuing to work
between sixty five and seventy two, will not be in
that favored class. But already the fraction of people who
work between sixty five and seventy two has been cut
(14:03):
to a small part of what it used to be
because of the incentive offered by Social Security, And overall,
there is little doubt therefore, that Social Security is a
program which transfers income from low income classes to high
income classes. Same thing is true of almost every other
social program you can mention. I have often challenged people
(14:27):
to find a single governmental program in which the people
who pay taxes have higher incomes than those who get
the benefits.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I know only one, and that's direct.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Relief, public assistance, the aid to families that dependent children.
It's not a good program, it's a terrible program. It's
a welfare mess. But so far as I can find out,
it's the only program that demonstrably transfers income from higher
income classes to.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Lower income classes. And that's why it's such an unpopular.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
P If you like the Michael Berry Show and Podcast.
Please tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write
a nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and
interest in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be
communicated directly to the show at our email address, Michael
(15:22):
at Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on
our website, Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show
and Podcast is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding.
Executive producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director.
(15:47):
Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLain.
Director of Research is Sandy Peterson. Emily Bull is our
assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated
into our production. Where possible, we give credit. Where not,
(16:09):
we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the
memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple
man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God bless America. Finally,
if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp
Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and
(16:34):
a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free
counseling
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