October 23, 2025 • 32 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
It's that time time, time, time, luck and load.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So Michael Verie Show is on the air. Some of
(00:32):
our best show prep comes from listeners. That's why I
read every email. The perspectives people have when there's a
fire and a firefighter writes in, or where there's a
response to a crime and police officers will write in,
or when we're in the middle of war and veterans
will write in. Sometimes it is that you've discovered a
(00:55):
podcast and the host would be an interesting guest, and
why they would be an interesting guest. So Scott sent
me an email. I don't know Scott, and he says, zar,
I'm emailing about a recent book release from a fellow
named doctor Greg Gifford. It's called Lies. My therapist told me,
I think he would be an amazing interview on your show,
(01:15):
and it's the sort of things you like to talk about.
He went on as to why this would be a particular,
particularly good guest from a Christian counselor, professor and podcaster,
a critique of the mental health establishment from his perspective,
and I said, you have my attention. Therefore, our guest
(01:37):
is doctor Greg Gifford. Welcome to the program.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Thank you, for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Why did you need to write a book? What was
the purpose? What did you hope to accomplish? I mean,
it's a pretty it's a pretty eye catching title. Lies
my therapist told.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Me, right right, Well, I wrote the book first of all,
because counselors often are dealing with the downshow bring issues
of how to counsel somebody and how to help somebody
with anxiety or depression. But in instead of focusing there,
I wanted to actually get at the upstream issues of
(02:15):
why is mental health getting worse in America? Why is
there a complex, an industrial complex that's growing, Why are
more people on psychotropics? And instead of doing how to
help someone on the psychotropics book, I wanted to try
to learn why is the problem getting worse? So really
that question sent me on the maybe downward spiral or
(02:36):
the trajectory of writing this book.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
And let's talk about how that came to be. Why
is that the case?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, as I began to read and learn how the
mental health movement came about, it came down to the
father of the mental health movement of Clifford Whittingham Beers,
and he started using the term mental and brain synonymously.
So that he would talk about mental hygiene, for instance,
(03:05):
and the mental health movement was actually the mental hygiene
movement to begin with. And he started using things like
medical doctors for the mind and wanted us to implement
a psychiatrist, a medical doctor for the mind, as Europe
is already doing. So he's saying this in the turn
of the twentieth century and saying we need medical doctors
for our minds. And I began to think, oh, that's
(03:26):
interesting because as a Christian, the Bible teaches that the
mind is immaterial, it's part of our inner person. It's
not a physical reality, it's an immaterial reality. So that
little nugget started to become the mind versus the brain.
And are we talking about a brain issue, the organ
of your brain, or are we talking about the mind,
(03:47):
the immateial aspect of who we are. And because the
mental health movement has combined those too, there have been
many misdiagnoses which lead to wrong prognoses as well. If
you get the problem wrong, you get the solution wrong
every time.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Do you think that these errors as you see them,
or poor courses of action, are by design or by default?
How does this end up happening.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean that's this is me speculating a liment.
So I think the fair question, Michael. The reality is
I'm usually a pretty charitable person, so I'm not typically
skeptical or overly cynical. So that means that I don't
think it's by design. I think we live in a
naturalistic world looking for naturalistic explanations of why we face
(04:38):
what we face. So if you're gonna just come up
with a material solution, then the mental health enterprise is
a natural answer. And why do we do that? You
go back to Darwin like, the physical as all there is.
The material is all there is, So there must be
a physical, material reason for why I'm doing what I'm doing,
Why I'm sad, why I'm anxious, while i'mtruggling with past experiences.
(05:01):
There must be a material reason. And that's where the
blame it on the brain mental health complex really comes in.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and you know, one of my great frustrations with
the medical establishment. I'm not familiar with your body of work,
but one of my great frustrations is an overreliance on
pharmaceutical products, an overreliance on things that cost money when
there are things that are free or very little money,
more sleep, more, more water in your diet, that there
(05:35):
is this dependency on billable items for industries that have
so affected sort of traditional physical health. And what I'm
hearing from you is that's also true for mental health treatment.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, no.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Right, I make that case. In the book, there's a
section on incentivized diagnosing, and I show I mean it's
these are factual. So there are many people who will
disagree with my conclusions, but these are facts that you
really can't get around. Which is Number one. You have
to find a diagnosis, a mental health diagnosis to build
an insurance company. And what are you getting paid for
(06:15):
by the insurance company. You're treating depression or ADHD. So
that's one incentive, and it's a huge one, especially if
you're spending seventeen minutes with your doctor, who then finds
the code with which to bill your insurance. Second is
schools have to test in order for you to get
additional resources. You have to either have a learning disability
(06:36):
or some mental health impairment. So now we need a
diagnosis to get you a tutor, so to speak. And
that's an incentive whereas we could just get you the
tutor and not diagnosed, but we need that diagnosis because
of ida. So there's like three or four different examples
where I show that this isn't even the nethereous side.
(06:58):
I mean, inevitably the total depravity of men. It means
that we are bad in every way. And that does
mean they're individuals and the secular mental health enterprise that
are in it for the money and they're in it
for a career. Or it's the psychotropic you know industry,
where you're making money off of antidepressants. I mean, of
(07:20):
course that exists, you know, And so then a Christian
just has to be discerning. It's like, well, here's what happens.
You get an arbitrary mental illness, and then my psychiatrist
makes money off of this arbitrary illness, and then pharmaceutical
companies make money by me taking their antidepressant for the
(07:40):
rest of my life. And this is this is incentivized
for them, and I'm really the one losing in all
of this.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, the frustration here is that we should all start
from the premise that we want to provide health care
for our friend's neighbors family, and there are all these
things getting in between. It feels like we're not making
progress as a society because so many things we were
(08:10):
once good at we're less good at now, and I
find that extraordinarily frustrating. Doctor Greg Giffert is our guest.
The book is called Lies. My therapist told me we'll
get into more of those lives listening to the Michael
Barry Show podcast.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Is sexy be sexy Mark.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Greg Giffert is our guest. The book is called Lies.
My therapist told me. This was a book that was
recommended to me by a listener who had read it
and found it useful. Greg Gifford, what do you want
people to take away from this? Once we understand that
there are lies, our therapist is telling us, what do
you hope to accomplish? What should the patient reader take away?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, if it is true that mental health diagnoses are
on the rise and more people are on psychotropics than
they've ever been at any point in history, we have
to at least be discerning and skeptical and say, well,
maybe the secular therapeutic enterprise doesn't know what it's doing.
Is there something better? Is there a better alternative? And
that's where I would say, yes, there is the Bible.
(09:18):
God has created us and the Bible has better answers,
and many have relegated the Bible to like cute Sunday
school hour where we talk about Jonah and the whale.
But the Bible actually addresses the deepest problems that we
have and frames our anthropology, our understanding of ourselves, our
understanding of change, the purpose of our life. So the
(09:39):
takeaway for the reader or the listener is, I think
we're all sensing there's something wrong with the secular therapeutic.
Would you be open to seeing what the Bible has
to say about your problems?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, maybe the problem is that people are bifurcating and
Bible study and their personal faith and their personal Christian
experience and separating that from health care, when maybe you're saying,
there should be a better blend of that, because the
(10:15):
Bible is more than telling us to be nice people
or ten commandments. It is telling us how to live
our lives. I don't want to put words in your mouth,
but I'm trying to figure out Oh.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yes, rctly he's that out. So then think, all right,
when I go to church on Sunday and my pastor
preaches on anxiety. Do I draw a line between that
and say, well, he's not a mental health professional, so
he doesn't really know what anxiety is like. Or do
I say, wait a minute, maybe my mental health expert,
(10:46):
my therapist, psychologist, psychiaty, maybe they really don't know what
anxiety is and my pastor is teaching me directly from
God's word. So if you're not careful, this is really
a view of the Bible that we're getting at. Where
do you believe that the Bible tells you everything that
you need to know for life and godliness? Or do
you believe that it tells you everything you need to
know for Sunday morning tending out a missionary, maybe someday
(11:11):
school teaching, But when it comes to the real issues
of life, the Bible is inadequate or the Bible doesn't
talk about those things. That is the doctrine of the
sufficiency of scripture, which is that God has provided in
his word all that we need for life and godliness.
And that's my basic contention. Even if a reader doesn't
agree with some of my data, which are all cited,
(11:32):
or if a reader doesn't agree with the difference of
the mind in the brain do you believe as a
Christian that God has provided in his word all that
you need? And if the secular therapeutics not helping you,
would you just give it a shot? Would you be
open to it? Because if you have this secular sacred divide,
you're going to see your pastor as being well and
tended and the Bible is being good, but it's not adequate.
(11:56):
And what I'm saying is the opposite, where it's like, no,
the Bible adequate and not only adequate, like it's enough,
but it's actually superior than what we are hearing anywhere,
especially in the secular therapeutic So.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
What would be an example of that? What would be
a problem where the Bible is enough and we don't
need a drug or we don't need the secular approach.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah. So, currently, generalized anxiety disorder is an actual mental disorder,
and you could go to a psychiatrist, medical doctor and
be diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. But if you're using
that term anxiety in the same way that the Bible
uses that term anxiety, this is a Matthew sixth issue
(12:40):
or a Philippian's flour issue, which is I don't have
a medical problem. I actually have a faith problem, and
there is room for repentance and growing in trust in
the world. So if I'm not careful, I go to
my therapist and they tell me I have a medical
issue and I can't control it, and I can manage
symptoms of medications. Whereas the true Biblical answer is if
(13:01):
we're talking about anxiety and the same way the Bible
talks about anxiety, I actually need to repent of that
and grow in my trust and the Lord and put
on a vision of who God really is, a sovereign
and wise and good. So the wrong diagnosis of generalized
anxiety disorder, it's going to lead to a wrong solution.
And for reframing this, then think of the implications of this, Michael.
(13:25):
So now instead of me finding transformation or healing or
total growth, I'm managing symptoms for the rest of my
life gad. Whereas what the Bible offers is that you
can actually be transformed, which is totally new, made new,
or restored to a ment condition. So I'm not managing
symptoms for thirty years, I'm actually a different person. So
(13:47):
it's even a much more hopeful model. If we'll just
go back to the Bible instead of letting the secular
therapeutic be our authority.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
It's very interesting. What about your thought on therapists who
may say that they bring a Christian approach or a
biblical approach to this rather than a traditional or more
common secular approach.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Right, And that is true. There are individuals who have
been primarily trained in Rogerian counseling, humanistic psychology, psychoanalysis, whatever
field that they've been trained in, but they're a Christian.
They believe in Jesus, they believe in salvation by faith
alone in Christs. That's totally true. The question is what
(14:39):
pair of eyeglasses are you using. Are you using Abraham
Maslow's pair of eyeglasses, are you using Carl Rogers or
Sigmund Freud's or are you using the Bible as the
eyeglasses through which you're viewing the problem, the solution to
the problem, and how to actually maintain so your method
(15:00):
for change long term. So if a person saying, you
know what, I'm using the Bible as the lens through
which I'm viewing everything and helping my counsel ease or
my clients, and I would say good for you, like
that's the way that it should be done. But if
you're sprinkling a proverb into your counseling and ninety nine
percent of your counseling is actually what Abraham Maslow said
(15:22):
or call Roger said, neither of them were believers are
claimed to be, then you're not really doing what you're
claiming to do. You're inserting a proverb here and there
about whatever topic, and then you're primarily using the worldview
of Rogers or Maslow or Floyd.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It's very interesting because it does strike me that many
people sort of have compartments in their lives. You know,
here's the compartment for church and Bible study and the Word,
and then here's the compartment for during the week, and
(16:03):
I stop off at counseling on my way home when
I leave early on Thursday, and that those two would
not be the same, where at least for a believer,
you would have to think that you would want the
consistency because they're very different messages and they're very different medicines.
And it's a very very interesting perspective. I'm out of time.
(16:28):
The book is by doctor Greg Gifford. Lies My therapist
told me, giving us a lot to think about. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Thank you Jackie.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Here where Jackie a crash that killed Congresswoman jack you or.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
You know what they told me? I haven't. I haven't
done this story. And Jim guys film's hurt because he
worked up this story and he says I didn't do it,
and I swear I did. But the only reason I
don't mind is I love that dang song. That's why
we let it play out so long. I love that
(17:11):
dang song. Anyway, let's uh, let me tell you the
story about sister Girl. She is a Kentucky woman who
caused I swear I did this segment. I get if
you said I didn't, I didn't. Maybe we did it
for the evening, didn't do the morning, or did the morning,
(17:32):
didn't do it? I can't remember anyway. Kentucky woman causes
over one thousand dollars in damages to a little Caesar's
in Louisville after losing it over the one thousand dollars
extra sauce charge. How do you do one thousand dollars
in damages to a little Caesars? I mean you had
to burn the whole place down, According to court documents,
(17:52):
Brionna Haynes placed an order over the phone and went
to the store to pick it up. When Haines asked
for extra sauce with her order and employee said it
would cost a dollar, Popo said Haines quote created a
disturbance in the store, end quote over the dollar charge,
and began knocking things off the counter, including a custom
made computer stand and the computer register, which totaled over
(18:16):
one thousand dollars in damages. Sister girl left the store,
but employees were able to provide Popo with her name
after comparing video surveillance with a known picture. She was
charged with criminal mischief but was not arrested until another incident.
According to court documents, she threw a brick at the
father of her child's car because he wanted to move
(18:36):
back to Cincinnati. Popo said this incident costed more than
a thousand dollars worth of damage. She was charged with
assault and criminal mischief. You know, you kind of almost
get the impression that this is almost a savage animal
that is incapable of making advanced mental deliberations with regard
to conflict resolution, don't you. The story from w DRB
(19:02):
TV in Louisville.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
Accused of trashing a Little Caesars because of an extra
charge for sauce. Please say Brianna Hayes asked for extra
sauce with her order and was not happy when she
was told it would cost a dollar more. They say
she started knocking stuff off the counter, including the register,
which ended up causing more than one thousand dollars in damage.
(19:24):
This incident happened back in January. Hayes was charged with
criminal mischief, but was not arrested until another incident on
September twenty second. She is now due back in court tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Online It's known as black fatigue. That's what they call it.
How much you want to bet? Old Brianna just a
girl is a great, big fat woman.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh wait, but she ain't a great big fat person.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You found a picture of her? All right, well let
me see it. Ooh, yes, she's she's a big girl.
When they got a temper like that, nine times out
of ten up a store like that, she gonna be
a big girl. I she gonna be a couple of
hundred on the on the hoof, for sure. I don't
make up the rules, romown, I don't I don't decide
(20:11):
how big they're gonna be it just turns out they're
gonna be that big. You remember that story about five
years ago about the pizza joint that caused a stir
with their billboard about fat people. Do you remember that.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
I thought it'd be a good idea to put some
funny signs.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I don't tell We pulled in and I saw it.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I was laughing.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I said, that is as fantastic.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
They're just advertising and trying to get people to notice it.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
I never even thought about it in that way as
soon as I thought it, because kidnapping is not a joke.
We're taking it down.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I think a lot of people are going to be
offunded by it.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
But I mean, I don't think it's a big deal.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It's advertisement, it's marketing.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
You know.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
I never even thought about it as the kidnapping aspect.
I just meant it to be funny.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
There's a comedian named Kyle Kanaane. I think he'd be
kind of an ass in person, but he's got some
funny bits. He has one bit called Cutting Crew. It's
about the song I Just Died in your Arms tonight
and he goes to the cemetery. You got to hear
it for yourself. But it's a really, really funny bit.
I'm sure it's out there anyway. He has a bit
(21:12):
about getting a pizza delivered and when it arrived, they
had not sliced the pizza, which sounds like you're quibbling,
but I mean, think about it. If the pizza is
not cut up when it arrives, I mean, you should
have a you know, you should have a roller, but
what if you don't.
Speaker 7 (21:29):
Then I was delivered an unsliced pizza. Everything you believe
in just unravels, and everything you hold true some people.
Sounds like a simple mistake now, I mean I took
it personally. I was like, that's somebody down at Domino's
(21:49):
making a judgment call on my life. That's somebody seeing
my name come up on one too many tickets. And
finally just being like.
Speaker 8 (21:56):
Listen, man, we know that you're probably gonna eat this
by yourself, more than likely all in one sitting too.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Son. You know what to do, man, Just fold it
in half and.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Bone appetite.
Speaker 8 (22:18):
Just because they were right, I didn't appreciate.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
The assumption you don't know me.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Domino's plump, this.
Speaker 8 (22:27):
Is John Taco tastes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Acdly there's a comedian by the name of Bob Marley,
Yeah that's actually his name, who has a bit comparing
ordering pizza to a drug bust.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Every pizza that's good, isn't it? Oh my god? You
ever get excited when you order a pizza?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
You're just sitting around the house and you look at
the other people involved in the deal.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
We're gonna get a pizza.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
First thing I do after we order the pizza, I
take off all my clothes. That way I don't have
to answer the door when the pa guy shows up.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Then I go and I sit on the couch and
I wait for my pizza.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Did you ever notice, in the time you hang up
the phone until the time the pizza guy shows up,
the only conversation you have is where in the hell
is our pizza?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
That's pretty bad, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Fatties of America, there's people starving to death all around
the world, people waiting for a bag of flower to
fall out.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Of a helicopter.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Do you know how many beers I've had to drink
while I wait for this kid to show up?
Speaker 4 (23:30):
It's great when he finally shows up, isn't it so exciting?
It's almost like a drug raid Ding dong.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, get the money, get the money, Hide the dog,
Hide the dog.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Who is it? The pizza guy? What's it?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
What's it?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Bring it on?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
What would you do with a brain if you had one?
Bring it on? Because there is nothing here? The Michael
Barry Show. There are certain things from history that you
don't just say, well, that's history and move on. The
Holocaust would be one such example. The coronavirus and the
(24:10):
quote unquote vaccine and the mandatory jabs and the lives lost,
the lockdowns. These are things you don't simply move on from.
You learn from. But before you can learn from them,
you have to you have to face painful realities, and
you have to pick at a wound that a lot
of people want to move on from. That's not how
(24:34):
you progress. George Santana famously said those who do not
learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
Often the very people who want to quote move on
don't want to bear responsibility for what happened. Nick Saban
and other coaches will tell you that some of the
most important coaching you do of a team is not
(24:54):
during the team during the game, but after the game,
when you come in and watch that painful game film
and you see what you did that you hope nobody noticed,
and how you failed here and came up short there.
It is very important that we go back and understand
what happened on January sixth of twenty twenty one. It's
(25:18):
important that we understand what happened, and not be told
what happened by those with an agenda, but that we
do our own research and we ask questions of various people.
One of the most important voices in all of that
who has seemingly been silenced officially is Stephen Sund who
(25:39):
was the Capitol Police chief at that time on that day,
and he's our guest chief.
Speaker 9 (25:45):
Welcome, thank you very much for having me on. Michael.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Let's start with how you ended up the Capitol Police
chief leave January sixth aside, I think you were a
Metro police officer in DC before that. Talk about your career,
why did you get into law enforcement? Jeff family in it,
and then just walked me through your whole career there.
Speaker 9 (26:06):
Absolutely, I mean get the services succinctly as possible. Yeah,
So I did twenty five years with the DC Police
and I got into policing because my dad had actually
gotten sick early early on, he had got lakimia. He
was a Bee fifty two pilot. He had been sick
for a number of years, but passed away when I
was sixteen. So after we got back from the funeral,
(26:26):
we just happen to be visited by two friends of
ours that we used to live with right nearby in
California that became Fremont Police officers, Carolyn Brad Brown Needing
still sat in touch today. They had reached out and
came to visit. This was the same day that we
had buried my dad, and as a young sixteen year old,
as a very pivotal part of my life, I looked
(26:48):
at and said, you know what I think. I know
what I want to do, and at from that point
on I was pursuing. Right around twenty three, I applied
to the couple different departments, but DC Police picked me up.
Started there right around twenty five. By the time I
went into the academy, got out and patrolled as an
officer in what they call the sixth District, which is
(27:09):
Anti Coostia, one of the most violent parts of Washington,
d C. Was there for a couple of years made sergeant,
went to seventy, which is also one of the most
violent parts in Anacostia, South Anacostia, down by South Capitol
Street Congress Heights. Patrolled there for a little bit and
then started rising up through the ranks. Became a lieutenant,
and then I got assigned downtown for a little bit
(27:31):
and went to Special Operations Division, where I kind of
stayed from lieutenant on doing all the major events, major
demonstrations in Washington, d C. Made captain inspector, being commander
of the Special Operations Division from twenty ten to twenty fifteen,
and that's when I retired. At the end of the
very last day, December thirty first, twenty fifteen, I retired.
We had the Pope come visit in October, and I
(27:53):
figured it's a good time to head out. Went out
and kind of worked a little bit in a private
sector for just about a months, and then the House
and Senate Sergeant Arms approached me to come over and
become the assistant Chief of Operations for Capitol Police, and
January seventh, I started twenty seventeen. Started at the US
(28:14):
Capitol Police just a few days before Trump's inauguration, and
I'd been involved in. It's probably my fifth or sixth
inauguration I've been involved in planning of so they brought
me in right before that and was there, and then
in May became the May of twenty nineteen, became the
chief and started revamping a lot of operations and capabilities,
(28:35):
and then January sixth happened and I was removed from
the position the very next day by Speaker Pelosi. And
I'm sure our conversation is going to cover a couple
of things along.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
There, absolutely, but before that, let's set in place our
procedures so we know the context within which we're working.
I was with Senator Cruz at an event in Milwaukee
a few years ago, and he had a large contingent
of capital and I learned that those are a sign
based on kind of death threats and it's all on
(29:05):
a screen, as you know, And it turns out he
was getting more death threats and than Pelosi and every
other member of Congress combined. And it was kind of
interesting to me that that was, you know, that that
unlike the president, which is kind of you know, a
designated secret service for the president, it was sort of
where is the threat right now? It might be Jasmine
Crockett on Monday, it might be Ted Cruz on on Thursday,
(29:26):
or whoever that might be. But talk to me about
how the Capital Police chief is hired and to whom
they report and take orders.
Speaker 9 (29:37):
Okay, and you're you're you're absolutely right about what you
just you just mentioned. We do statutory security details for
the leadership before on the House and the Senate side,
and then others based on the threat. So you're actually
right there. So the Capitol Police chief, and it's interesting,
it's not like any other police chief in the country.
I report to a Capitol Police Board. They're the one
(29:57):
that hire and fire me. Oh, we'll get into that too.
They're the ones that really have the hiring authority, but
they only do it with the approval of Senate leadership
and House leadership. So when I was first hired, you
had let's see, Schumer was over on the for the
chief's position. Schumer was over on the Senate side, and
(30:20):
Pelos who was on the House side, and they both
had to approve my hiring for the position. So you
go through and what's interesting to understand is the Capitol
Police Board is made up of four individuals, the House
and Senate Sergeant Arms, who are considered to be the
lead law enforcement agent for the House and for the
for the and one for the Senate. So when you
think of the chief as the top law enforcement official
(30:40):
for the legislative branch, I'm sorry. When you think of
the chief as the top law enforcement official for the
legislative branch, that's not the case. The Senate and the
House starge Arms actually are are above me. The third
person in the Capitol Police Board is the architect of
the Capitol, and then the fourth person is the Chief
of Police. The three people that are politically appointed, the
House and Senate sarge Arms, they or executed the Capitol,
(31:02):
all have a vote on how things go for the
Capitol Police and they cover They control everything from from schedules,
which doors we cover, which equipment we can use. If
I want to get my officer's tasers, I had to
go to the Capitol Police Board and get approval, and
I had to go to my oversight committee and get
approval for them. If I wanted to like deploy fencing,
I got to go to the Capitol Police Board. If
(31:23):
I want to everything, pretty much all operations has to
be approved by the Capital of base boards. That just
gives you a little bit of an idea what I'm
dealing with. Yeah, as the chief, it's very political. It's
very political because they the House and Senate Sergeant Arms
who carry mostly weight, uh, don't want to do anything
that's going to upset their congressional leader. So we may
(31:43):
be having a hearing on the Supreme Court justice being
nominated and I want to put up certain offencing. Well,
one side they want no fencing put up so protesters
can come in and you know, proms or you know,
the other side may want to shut down all the
buildings to public entry.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
So I think that's going to be a good segue
into our next discussion point. Our guest is Stephen Sund
who was the Chief of Police of the Capitol Police
on January sixth, twenty twenty one, that fateful day. We'll
talk about his perspective, which I bet you haven't heard
and may be surprised by coming up.
It's that time time, time, time, luck and load.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So Michael Verie Show is on the air. Some of
(00:32):
our best show prep comes from listeners. That's why I
read every email. The perspectives people have when there's a
fire and a firefighter writes in, or where there's a
response to a crime and police officers will write in,
or when we're in the middle of war and veterans
will write in. Sometimes it is that you've discovered a
(00:55):
podcast and the host would be an interesting guest, and
why they would be an interesting guest. So Scott sent
me an email. I don't know Scott, and he says, zar,
I'm emailing about a recent book release from a fellow
named doctor Greg Gifford. It's called Lies. My therapist told me,
I think he would be an amazing interview on your show,
(01:15):
and it's the sort of things you like to talk about.
He went on as to why this would be a particular,
particularly good guest from a Christian counselor, professor and podcaster,
a critique of the mental health establishment from his perspective,
and I said, you have my attention. Therefore, our guest
(01:37):
is doctor Greg Gifford. Welcome to the program.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Thank you, for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Why did you need to write a book? What was
the purpose? What did you hope to accomplish? I mean,
it's a pretty it's a pretty eye catching title. Lies
my therapist told.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Me, right right, Well, I wrote the book first of all,
because counselors often are dealing with the downshow bring issues
of how to counsel somebody and how to help somebody
with anxiety or depression. But in instead of focusing there,
I wanted to actually get at the upstream issues of
(02:15):
why is mental health getting worse in America? Why is
there a complex, an industrial complex that's growing, Why are
more people on psychotropics? And instead of doing how to
help someone on the psychotropics book, I wanted to try
to learn why is the problem getting worse? So really
that question sent me on the maybe downward spiral or
(02:36):
the trajectory of writing this book.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
And let's talk about how that came to be. Why
is that the case?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, as I began to read and learn how the
mental health movement came about, it came down to the
father of the mental health movement of Clifford Whittingham Beers,
and he started using the term mental and brain synonymously.
So that he would talk about mental hygiene, for instance,
(03:05):
and the mental health movement was actually the mental hygiene
movement to begin with. And he started using things like
medical doctors for the mind and wanted us to implement
a psychiatrist, a medical doctor for the mind, as Europe
is already doing. So he's saying this in the turn
of the twentieth century and saying we need medical doctors
for our minds. And I began to think, oh, that's
(03:26):
interesting because as a Christian, the Bible teaches that the
mind is immaterial, it's part of our inner person. It's
not a physical reality, it's an immaterial reality. So that
little nugget started to become the mind versus the brain.
And are we talking about a brain issue, the organ
of your brain, or are we talking about the mind,
(03:47):
the immateial aspect of who we are. And because the
mental health movement has combined those too, there have been
many misdiagnoses which lead to wrong prognoses as well. If
you get the problem wrong, you get the solution wrong
every time.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Do you think that these errors as you see them,
or poor courses of action, are by design or by default?
How does this end up happening.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean that's this is me speculating a liment.
So I think the fair question, Michael. The reality is
I'm usually a pretty charitable person, so I'm not typically
skeptical or overly cynical. So that means that I don't
think it's by design. I think we live in a
naturalistic world looking for naturalistic explanations of why we face
(04:38):
what we face. So if you're gonna just come up
with a material solution, then the mental health enterprise is
a natural answer. And why do we do that? You
go back to Darwin like, the physical as all there is.
The material is all there is, So there must be
a physical, material reason for why I'm doing what I'm doing,
Why I'm sad, why I'm anxious, while i'mtruggling with past experiences.
(05:01):
There must be a material reason. And that's where the
blame it on the brain mental health complex really comes in.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and you know, one of my great frustrations with
the medical establishment. I'm not familiar with your body of work,
but one of my great frustrations is an overreliance on
pharmaceutical products, an overreliance on things that cost money when
there are things that are free or very little money,
more sleep, more, more water in your diet, that there
(05:35):
is this dependency on billable items for industries that have
so affected sort of traditional physical health. And what I'm
hearing from you is that's also true for mental health treatment.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, no.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Right, I make that case. In the book, there's a
section on incentivized diagnosing, and I show I mean it's
these are factual. So there are many people who will
disagree with my conclusions, but these are facts that you
really can't get around. Which is Number one. You have
to find a diagnosis, a mental health diagnosis to build
an insurance company. And what are you getting paid for
(06:15):
by the insurance company. You're treating depression or ADHD. So
that's one incentive, and it's a huge one, especially if
you're spending seventeen minutes with your doctor, who then finds
the code with which to bill your insurance. Second is
schools have to test in order for you to get
additional resources. You have to either have a learning disability
(06:36):
or some mental health impairment. So now we need a
diagnosis to get you a tutor, so to speak. And
that's an incentive whereas we could just get you the
tutor and not diagnosed, but we need that diagnosis because
of ida. So there's like three or four different examples
where I show that this isn't even the nethereous side.
(06:58):
I mean, inevitably the total depravity of men. It means
that we are bad in every way. And that does
mean they're individuals and the secular mental health enterprise that
are in it for the money and they're in it
for a career. Or it's the psychotropic you know industry,
where you're making money off of antidepressants. I mean, of
(07:20):
course that exists, you know, And so then a Christian
just has to be discerning. It's like, well, here's what happens.
You get an arbitrary mental illness, and then my psychiatrist
makes money off of this arbitrary illness, and then pharmaceutical
companies make money by me taking their antidepressant for the
(07:40):
rest of my life. And this is this is incentivized
for them, and I'm really the one losing in all
of this.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, the frustration here is that we should all start
from the premise that we want to provide health care
for our friend's neighbors family, and there are all these
things getting in between. It feels like we're not making
progress as a society because so many things we were
(08:10):
once good at we're less good at now, and I
find that extraordinarily frustrating. Doctor Greg Giffert is our guest.
The book is called Lies. My therapist told me we'll
get into more of those lives listening to the Michael
Barry Show podcast.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Is sexy be sexy Mark.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Greg Giffert is our guest. The book is called Lies.
My therapist told me. This was a book that was
recommended to me by a listener who had read it
and found it useful. Greg Gifford, what do you want
people to take away from this? Once we understand that
there are lies, our therapist is telling us, what do
you hope to accomplish? What should the patient reader take away?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, if it is true that mental health diagnoses are
on the rise and more people are on psychotropics than
they've ever been at any point in history, we have
to at least be discerning and skeptical and say, well,
maybe the secular therapeutic enterprise doesn't know what it's doing.
Is there something better? Is there a better alternative? And
that's where I would say, yes, there is the Bible.
(09:18):
God has created us and the Bible has better answers,
and many have relegated the Bible to like cute Sunday
school hour where we talk about Jonah and the whale.
But the Bible actually addresses the deepest problems that we
have and frames our anthropology, our understanding of ourselves, our
understanding of change, the purpose of our life. So the
(09:39):
takeaway for the reader or the listener is, I think
we're all sensing there's something wrong with the secular therapeutic.
Would you be open to seeing what the Bible has
to say about your problems?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, maybe the problem is that people are bifurcating and
Bible study and their personal faith and their personal Christian
experience and separating that from health care, when maybe you're saying,
there should be a better blend of that, because the
(10:15):
Bible is more than telling us to be nice people
or ten commandments. It is telling us how to live
our lives. I don't want to put words in your mouth,
but I'm trying to figure out Oh.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yes, rctly he's that out. So then think, all right,
when I go to church on Sunday and my pastor
preaches on anxiety. Do I draw a line between that
and say, well, he's not a mental health professional, so
he doesn't really know what anxiety is like. Or do
I say, wait a minute, maybe my mental health expert,
(10:46):
my therapist, psychologist, psychiaty, maybe they really don't know what
anxiety is and my pastor is teaching me directly from
God's word. So if you're not careful, this is really
a view of the Bible that we're getting at. Where
do you believe that the Bible tells you everything that
you need to know for life and godliness? Or do
you believe that it tells you everything you need to
know for Sunday morning tending out a missionary, maybe someday
(11:11):
school teaching, But when it comes to the real issues
of life, the Bible is inadequate or the Bible doesn't
talk about those things. That is the doctrine of the
sufficiency of scripture, which is that God has provided in
his word all that we need for life and godliness.
And that's my basic contention. Even if a reader doesn't
agree with some of my data, which are all cited,
(11:32):
or if a reader doesn't agree with the difference of
the mind in the brain do you believe as a
Christian that God has provided in his word all that
you need? And if the secular therapeutics not helping you,
would you just give it a shot? Would you be
open to it? Because if you have this secular sacred divide,
you're going to see your pastor as being well and
tended and the Bible is being good, but it's not adequate.
(11:56):
And what I'm saying is the opposite, where it's like, no,
the Bible adequate and not only adequate, like it's enough,
but it's actually superior than what we are hearing anywhere,
especially in the secular therapeutic So.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
What would be an example of that? What would be
a problem where the Bible is enough and we don't
need a drug or we don't need the secular approach.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah. So, currently, generalized anxiety disorder is an actual mental disorder,
and you could go to a psychiatrist, medical doctor and
be diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. But if you're using
that term anxiety in the same way that the Bible
uses that term anxiety, this is a Matthew sixth issue
(12:40):
or a Philippian's flour issue, which is I don't have
a medical problem. I actually have a faith problem, and
there is room for repentance and growing in trust in
the world. So if I'm not careful, I go to
my therapist and they tell me I have a medical
issue and I can't control it, and I can manage
symptoms of medications. Whereas the true Biblical answer is if
(13:01):
we're talking about anxiety and the same way the Bible
talks about anxiety, I actually need to repent of that
and grow in my trust and the Lord and put
on a vision of who God really is, a sovereign
and wise and good. So the wrong diagnosis of generalized
anxiety disorder, it's going to lead to a wrong solution.
And for reframing this, then think of the implications of this, Michael.
(13:25):
So now instead of me finding transformation or healing or
total growth, I'm managing symptoms for the rest of my
life gad. Whereas what the Bible offers is that you
can actually be transformed, which is totally new, made new,
or restored to a ment condition. So I'm not managing
symptoms for thirty years, I'm actually a different person. So
(13:47):
it's even a much more hopeful model. If we'll just
go back to the Bible instead of letting the secular
therapeutic be our authority.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
It's very interesting. What about your thought on therapists who
may say that they bring a Christian approach or a
biblical approach to this rather than a traditional or more
common secular approach.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Right, And that is true. There are individuals who have
been primarily trained in Rogerian counseling, humanistic psychology, psychoanalysis, whatever
field that they've been trained in, but they're a Christian.
They believe in Jesus, they believe in salvation by faith
alone in Christs. That's totally true. The question is what
(14:39):
pair of eyeglasses are you using. Are you using Abraham
Maslow's pair of eyeglasses, are you using Carl Rogers or
Sigmund Freud's or are you using the Bible as the
eyeglasses through which you're viewing the problem, the solution to
the problem, and how to actually maintain so your method
(15:00):
for change long term. So if a person saying, you
know what, I'm using the Bible as the lens through
which I'm viewing everything and helping my counsel ease or
my clients, and I would say good for you, like
that's the way that it should be done. But if
you're sprinkling a proverb into your counseling and ninety nine
percent of your counseling is actually what Abraham Maslow said
(15:22):
or call Roger said, neither of them were believers are
claimed to be, then you're not really doing what you're
claiming to do. You're inserting a proverb here and there
about whatever topic, and then you're primarily using the worldview
of Rogers or Maslow or Floyd.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It's very interesting because it does strike me that many
people sort of have compartments in their lives. You know,
here's the compartment for church and Bible study and the Word,
and then here's the compartment for during the week, and
(16:03):
I stop off at counseling on my way home when
I leave early on Thursday, and that those two would
not be the same, where at least for a believer,
you would have to think that you would want the
consistency because they're very different messages and they're very different medicines.
And it's a very very interesting perspective. I'm out of time.
(16:28):
The book is by doctor Greg Gifford. Lies My therapist
told me, giving us a lot to think about. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Thank you Jackie.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Here where Jackie a crash that killed Congresswoman jack you or.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
You know what they told me? I haven't. I haven't
done this story. And Jim guys film's hurt because he
worked up this story and he says I didn't do it,
and I swear I did. But the only reason I
don't mind is I love that dang song. That's why
we let it play out so long. I love that
(17:11):
dang song. Anyway, let's uh, let me tell you the
story about sister Girl. She is a Kentucky woman who
caused I swear I did this segment. I get if
you said I didn't, I didn't. Maybe we did it
for the evening, didn't do the morning, or did the morning,
(17:32):
didn't do it? I can't remember anyway. Kentucky woman causes
over one thousand dollars in damages to a little Caesar's
in Louisville after losing it over the one thousand dollars
extra sauce charge. How do you do one thousand dollars
in damages to a little Caesars? I mean you had
to burn the whole place down, According to court documents,
(17:52):
Brionna Haynes placed an order over the phone and went
to the store to pick it up. When Haines asked
for extra sauce with her order and employee said it
would cost a dollar, Popo said Haines quote created a
disturbance in the store, end quote over the dollar charge,
and began knocking things off the counter, including a custom
made computer stand and the computer register, which totaled over
(18:16):
one thousand dollars in damages. Sister girl left the store,
but employees were able to provide Popo with her name
after comparing video surveillance with a known picture. She was
charged with criminal mischief but was not arrested until another incident.
According to court documents, she threw a brick at the
father of her child's car because he wanted to move
(18:36):
back to Cincinnati. Popo said this incident costed more than
a thousand dollars worth of damage. She was charged with
assault and criminal mischief. You know, you kind of almost
get the impression that this is almost a savage animal
that is incapable of making advanced mental deliberations with regard
to conflict resolution, don't you. The story from w DRB
(19:02):
TV in Louisville.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
Accused of trashing a Little Caesars because of an extra
charge for sauce. Please say Brianna Hayes asked for extra
sauce with her order and was not happy when she
was told it would cost a dollar more. They say
she started knocking stuff off the counter, including the register,
which ended up causing more than one thousand dollars in damage.
(19:24):
This incident happened back in January. Hayes was charged with
criminal mischief, but was not arrested until another incident on
September twenty second. She is now due back in court tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Online It's known as black fatigue. That's what they call it.
How much you want to bet? Old Brianna just a
girl is a great, big fat woman.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh wait, but she ain't a great big fat person.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You found a picture of her? All right, well let
me see it. Ooh, yes, she's she's a big girl.
When they got a temper like that, nine times out
of ten up a store like that, she gonna be
a big girl. I she gonna be a couple of
hundred on the on the hoof, for sure. I don't
make up the rules, romown, I don't I don't decide
(20:11):
how big they're gonna be it just turns out they're
gonna be that big. You remember that story about five
years ago about the pizza joint that caused a stir
with their billboard about fat people. Do you remember that.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
I thought it'd be a good idea to put some
funny signs.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I don't tell We pulled in and I saw it.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I was laughing.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I said, that is as fantastic.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
They're just advertising and trying to get people to notice it.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
I never even thought about it in that way as
soon as I thought it, because kidnapping is not a joke.
We're taking it down.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I think a lot of people are going to be
offunded by it.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
But I mean, I don't think it's a big deal.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It's advertisement, it's marketing.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
You know.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
I never even thought about it as the kidnapping aspect.
I just meant it to be funny.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
There's a comedian named Kyle Kanaane. I think he'd be
kind of an ass in person, but he's got some
funny bits. He has one bit called Cutting Crew. It's
about the song I Just Died in your Arms tonight
and he goes to the cemetery. You got to hear
it for yourself. But it's a really, really funny bit.
I'm sure it's out there anyway. He has a bit
(21:12):
about getting a pizza delivered and when it arrived, they
had not sliced the pizza, which sounds like you're quibbling,
but I mean, think about it. If the pizza is
not cut up when it arrives, I mean, you should
have a you know, you should have a roller, but
what if you don't.
Speaker 7 (21:29):
Then I was delivered an unsliced pizza. Everything you believe
in just unravels, and everything you hold true some people.
Sounds like a simple mistake now, I mean I took
it personally. I was like, that's somebody down at Domino's
(21:49):
making a judgment call on my life. That's somebody seeing
my name come up on one too many tickets. And
finally just being like.
Speaker 8 (21:56):
Listen, man, we know that you're probably gonna eat this
by yourself, more than likely all in one sitting too.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Son. You know what to do, man, Just fold it
in half and.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Bone appetite.
Speaker 8 (22:18):
Just because they were right, I didn't appreciate.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
The assumption you don't know me.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Domino's plump, this.
Speaker 8 (22:27):
Is John Taco tastes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Acdly there's a comedian by the name of Bob Marley,
Yeah that's actually his name, who has a bit comparing
ordering pizza to a drug bust.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Every pizza that's good, isn't it? Oh my god? You
ever get excited when you order a pizza?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
You're just sitting around the house and you look at
the other people involved in the deal.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
We're gonna get a pizza.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
First thing I do after we order the pizza, I
take off all my clothes. That way I don't have
to answer the door when the pa guy shows up.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Then I go and I sit on the couch and
I wait for my pizza.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Did you ever notice, in the time you hang up
the phone until the time the pizza guy shows up,
the only conversation you have is where in the hell
is our pizza?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
That's pretty bad, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Fatties of America, there's people starving to death all around
the world, people waiting for a bag of flower to
fall out.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Of a helicopter.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Do you know how many beers I've had to drink
while I wait for this kid to show up?
Speaker 4 (23:30):
It's great when he finally shows up, isn't it so exciting?
It's almost like a drug raid Ding dong.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, get the money, get the money, Hide the dog,
Hide the dog.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Who is it? The pizza guy? What's it?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
What's it?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Bring it on?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
What would you do with a brain if you had one?
Bring it on? Because there is nothing here? The Michael
Barry Show. There are certain things from history that you
don't just say, well, that's history and move on. The
Holocaust would be one such example. The coronavirus and the
(24:10):
quote unquote vaccine and the mandatory jabs and the lives lost,
the lockdowns. These are things you don't simply move on from.
You learn from. But before you can learn from them,
you have to you have to face painful realities, and
you have to pick at a wound that a lot
of people want to move on from. That's not how
(24:34):
you progress. George Santana famously said those who do not
learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
Often the very people who want to quote move on
don't want to bear responsibility for what happened. Nick Saban
and other coaches will tell you that some of the
most important coaching you do of a team is not
(24:54):
during the team during the game, but after the game,
when you come in and watch that painful game film
and you see what you did that you hope nobody noticed,
and how you failed here and came up short there.
It is very important that we go back and understand
what happened on January sixth of twenty twenty one. It's
(25:18):
important that we understand what happened, and not be told
what happened by those with an agenda, but that we
do our own research and we ask questions of various people.
One of the most important voices in all of that
who has seemingly been silenced officially is Stephen Sund who
(25:39):
was the Capitol Police chief at that time on that day,
and he's our guest chief.
Speaker 9 (25:45):
Welcome, thank you very much for having me on. Michael.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Let's start with how you ended up the Capitol Police
chief leave January sixth aside, I think you were a
Metro police officer in DC before that. Talk about your career,
why did you get into law enforcement? Jeff family in it,
and then just walked me through your whole career there.
Speaker 9 (26:06):
Absolutely, I mean get the services succinctly as possible. Yeah,
So I did twenty five years with the DC Police
and I got into policing because my dad had actually
gotten sick early early on, he had got lakimia. He
was a Bee fifty two pilot. He had been sick
for a number of years, but passed away when I
was sixteen. So after we got back from the funeral,
(26:26):
we just happen to be visited by two friends of
ours that we used to live with right nearby in
California that became Fremont Police officers, Carolyn Brad Brown Needing
still sat in touch today. They had reached out and
came to visit. This was the same day that we
had buried my dad, and as a young sixteen year old,
as a very pivotal part of my life, I looked
(26:48):
at and said, you know what I think. I know
what I want to do, and at from that point
on I was pursuing. Right around twenty three, I applied
to the couple different departments, but DC Police picked me up.
Started there right around twenty five. By the time I
went into the academy, got out and patrolled as an
officer in what they call the sixth District, which is
(27:09):
Anti Coostia, one of the most violent parts of Washington,
d C. Was there for a couple of years made sergeant,
went to seventy, which is also one of the most
violent parts in Anacostia, South Anacostia, down by South Capitol
Street Congress Heights. Patrolled there for a little bit and
then started rising up through the ranks. Became a lieutenant,
and then I got assigned downtown for a little bit
(27:31):
and went to Special Operations Division, where I kind of
stayed from lieutenant on doing all the major events, major
demonstrations in Washington, d C. Made captain inspector, being commander
of the Special Operations Division from twenty ten to twenty fifteen,
and that's when I retired. At the end of the
very last day, December thirty first, twenty fifteen, I retired.
We had the Pope come visit in October, and I
(27:53):
figured it's a good time to head out. Went out
and kind of worked a little bit in a private
sector for just about a months, and then the House
and Senate Sergeant Arms approached me to come over and
become the assistant Chief of Operations for Capitol Police, and
January seventh, I started twenty seventeen. Started at the US
(28:14):
Capitol Police just a few days before Trump's inauguration, and
I'd been involved in. It's probably my fifth or sixth
inauguration I've been involved in planning of so they brought
me in right before that and was there, and then
in May became the May of twenty nineteen, became the
chief and started revamping a lot of operations and capabilities,
(28:35):
and then January sixth happened and I was removed from
the position the very next day by Speaker Pelosi. And
I'm sure our conversation is going to cover a couple
of things along.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
There, absolutely, but before that, let's set in place our
procedures so we know the context within which we're working.
I was with Senator Cruz at an event in Milwaukee
a few years ago, and he had a large contingent
of capital and I learned that those are a sign
based on kind of death threats and it's all on
(29:05):
a screen, as you know, And it turns out he
was getting more death threats and than Pelosi and every
other member of Congress combined. And it was kind of
interesting to me that that was, you know, that that
unlike the president, which is kind of you know, a
designated secret service for the president, it was sort of
where is the threat right now? It might be Jasmine
Crockett on Monday, it might be Ted Cruz on on Thursday,
(29:26):
or whoever that might be. But talk to me about
how the Capital Police chief is hired and to whom
they report and take orders.
Speaker 9 (29:37):
Okay, and you're you're you're absolutely right about what you
just you just mentioned. We do statutory security details for
the leadership before on the House and the Senate side,
and then others based on the threat. So you're actually
right there. So the Capitol Police chief, and it's interesting,
it's not like any other police chief in the country.
I report to a Capitol Police Board. They're the one
(29:57):
that hire and fire me. Oh, we'll get into that too.
They're the ones that really have the hiring authority, but
they only do it with the approval of Senate leadership
and House leadership. So when I was first hired, you
had let's see, Schumer was over on the for the
chief's position. Schumer was over on the Senate side, and
(30:20):
Pelos who was on the House side, and they both
had to approve my hiring for the position. So you
go through and what's interesting to understand is the Capitol
Police Board is made up of four individuals, the House
and Senate Sergeant Arms, who are considered to be the
lead law enforcement agent for the House and for the
for the and one for the Senate. So when you
think of the chief as the top law enforcement official
(30:40):
for the legislative branch, I'm sorry. When you think of
the chief as the top law enforcement official for the
legislative branch, that's not the case. The Senate and the
House starge Arms actually are are above me. The third
person in the Capitol Police Board is the architect of
the Capitol, and then the fourth person is the Chief
of Police. The three people that are politically appointed, the
House and Senate sarge Arms, they or executed the Capitol,
(31:02):
all have a vote on how things go for the
Capitol Police and they cover They control everything from from schedules,
which doors we cover, which equipment we can use. If
I want to get my officer's tasers, I had to
go to the Capitol Police Board and get approval, and
I had to go to my oversight committee and get
approval for them. If I wanted to like deploy fencing,
I got to go to the Capitol Police Board. If
(31:23):
I want to everything, pretty much all operations has to
be approved by the Capital of base boards. That just
gives you a little bit of an idea what I'm
dealing with. Yeah, as the chief, it's very political. It's
very political because they the House and Senate Sergeant Arms
who carry mostly weight, uh, don't want to do anything
that's going to upset their congressional leader. So we may
(31:43):
be having a hearing on the Supreme Court justice being
nominated and I want to put up certain offencing. Well,
one side they want no fencing put up so protesters
can come in and you know, proms or you know,
the other side may want to shut down all the
buildings to public entry.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
So I think that's going to be a good segue
into our next discussion point. Our guest is Stephen Sund
who was the Chief of Police of the Capitol Police
on January sixth, twenty twenty one, that fateful day. We'll
talk about his perspective, which I bet you haven't heard
and may be surprised by coming up.
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