January 22, 2026 • 50 mins
On September 1, 1990, Thomas Peters and James Coleman were shot while shooting craps outside a liquor store on the west side of Chicago, IL at about 1:30 am. The men were taken to a hospital, where Peters died and Coleman was treated and released for a gunshot wound in the back. Day and a codefendant were arrested eight days later after a nephew of Peters and witness to the crime, told police they were the shooters. Despite several other witnesses willing to attest to Day’s innocence, both he and his codefendant were found guilty and sentenced to concurrent prison terms of 60 years for murder and 25 years for attempted murder. In this episode, Antoine Day is joined by Laura Caldwell, a former civil trial attorney who is now the director of Life After Innocence.
https://www.wrongfulconvictionpodcast.com/with-jason-flom
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I think we have the best legal system.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's just the people that implement they get lost along
the way and forget.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
What their job really is.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
He just kept on trying to remind me that who
was in authority, who was in control, and how easy
it was for my body to be found in any
alley of New York City.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
It's a tough prison when you have the guards going
against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
They do that.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home
in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to
something that you didn't do? My question to them will
be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill
your life?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The judge, he said, how you feel? I said, I'm okay.
He said, well, the days you're lucky day you're going home.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flamm.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Today we have two guests and I feel really excited
about today's episode.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
We have Antoine Day.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Antoine Day sixty years for murder, twenty five years for
attempted murder.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
In nineteen ninety two, Antoine Day was found guilty of
the murder of one man and attempted murder of another
outside a liquor store on Chicago's West Side.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Convicted in nineteen ninety two, exonerated in two thousand and two.
Antoine Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
Well, thanks for having me, And with Antoine, he brought
a luminary in the criminal justice reform movement. Laura Caldwell
and Laura is an accomplished author of many many books novels,
also professor at Loyola in Chicago and the found of
the Life After Innocence.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
Yeah, Lai at Loyola University Chicago School of Law.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Got it.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
But let's go back to the beginning. You came from Illinois, right.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, West side of Chicago.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
And you were a musician, and you had some stuff
going on at the time that everything went haywire.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Right.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
It was a murder that happened at a craps game,
right right. Two people shot Thomas Peters and James Coleman,
and Peters died and Coleman was wounded, and they're out
looking for the suspects.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
How'd you get mixed up?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I got mixed up because you know, I didn't come
from that real cush community. You know, I come from
a very hard heart community, you know, the West side
of Chicago. Even right now, it's the top murder has
the top murder rate in.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The state and one of the top of the country.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, in the country. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So I lived, as I live now in its same community,
and I also I work in the second largest murder
rate in the country in Lindale. So how it happened
was I was known in the community because I was
in the street. You know, I did some things in
the street. Today I wouldn't be so proud of. But
you know, young kid, you know, you did some things,
(03:10):
and so you meet.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
People, but not necessarily violent thing.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
No, nothing violent, had nothing to do with violence. I
sold drugs, you know, I sold marijuana. I did what
most young guys my age do.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
So okay, So you were I was known.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And then I was a musician.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
We played all the community of fast concerts. We did
a lot of things. And I lived in the community,
but in this particular community I lived in. The guys
that actually got killed stayed only a block away from
my home from where I lived. He stayed the next
block over, and I didn't know them. They didn't know me,
so when the incident occurred, they said that it was
(03:48):
a black vehicle, so right away they tagged all the
black vehicles in the area. I had two black vehicles.
I had a station Wagon. I'm a car man, you know,
I love cars. So I had a station Wagon that
was fixed up, and I had a Chevy Blazer that
was also fixed up. So these two cars stay parked
in front of my home. So when the police ran
(04:08):
an icing plate, they had my name. We had played
in New Orleans. It was raining really hard, so when
we came back that morning, it was a car to
my door. So I took the car to investigator's car,
Detective Connley, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I called him. I said, you left a car to
my door for what.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
He said, well, I want you to come in and
talk to me about some things that took place over
the weekend. I said, well, I wasn't here for the weekend.
So he had the conversay. He said, well, just come in.
He asked me what did I look like? I said,
what you mean, when do I look like? He said, so,
what are your features? Are you a big guy? Your
little guy? I'm like, why would you ask me that?
Shouldn't you be telling me you're looking for me. I'm
(04:47):
not looking for you. Then he said, well, the story
was that you were, you know, about six' to two like.
Complex THEN i, said, no that's not. Me he, said
so you shouldn't have no.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Problem how tall are?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
YOU i gotta be about five, ten probably used to be.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Taller you were number six, too and like, complected you
KNOW i like complected and, yeah so you didn't fit the.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
DESCRIPTION i, didn't SO i thought maybe they just got my,
name so let me go. In so WHEN i went,
in he started asking me about my, car, said WHY
i have two? Vehicles is? Black so he went over
the thing with the. Car he asked, me had anybody
been driving the? Car?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Stant, no my cars haven't, moved been sitting all.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Week so you begin to ask me about DID i
know these particular.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
People i'm saying, NO i don't. Know don't. FORGET i
took a lawyer in with.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
ME i, mean let's adaly. This you were a thousand
miles away right when the thing.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Happened, right you didn't fit the description, Right but, still
growing up in that type of, environment you know that
the police are capable of pulling some thirty tricks, right And, chicago,
unfortunately is as infamous as, anywhere with all the scandals
that have happened, there very well.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Known so you.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Hired to learn, though because you're, thinking you, KNOW i
better BE i better just take every say. Exactly so
you hired this lawyer and then tell us the.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Story i've never been one to trust the police, anyway
because they've done a lot of things in the. Past
SO i KNEW i should maybe take this lawyer in with.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Me SO i called.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Him he, said, SURE i, come and you, KNOW i, said,
MAN i just to make sure this go. Right you,
KNOW i KNOW i haven't done, anything SO i want
to make sure this goes. Right he, said, okay he comes.
In he came to my mom's, house met me at
my mother's, house and we went to the police.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Stay how far is that maybe two.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Miles So i'm sitting in the interview, room, well not
an interview. Room it's just a, room, big, big open,
space maybe sixty seventy chairs in this.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Room i'm sitting in a.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Chair it's another guy sitting in a, chair you, know
maybe ten feet away from. Me you, know we're just.
Talking we've been sitting there so. Long so now we
begin to. Talk i'm, like, MAN i don't know why
they got me. Here he said me.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Either. Man they brought me in here and just made,
me you, know sit.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Here i've been sitting there for the longest because he
was actually here BEFORE i, here and we were just
sitting there. Talking then the detective came. In he, said,
look are you willing to stand the? LINEUP i sent a?
Lineup so Now i'm looking for my. Lawyer, logical where's my?
Lawyer where was it for this?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Lineup? Right he was.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Gone he had left a message that he was going
to his daughter's birthday.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Party so he left me in the police.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Station and you paid him five thousand.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Dollars he got five grand out of me.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
To drive you two. Miles that's like twenty five hundred.
Miles that's not not it's not bad, man that's, incredible you.
Know SO i Just i'm, SORRY i. Can't that's. CRAZY
i got to take him.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Pause how he got five thousand in the. Beginning let
me just MAKE i gave him twenty five. Hundred that
was going to the police, station, right and if anything
else had, occurred THEN i would have gave him the
rest of, it so and it. DID i guess that
was the part of the. Setup so now he gets
all his money if he leave and THEN i get.
Arrested SO i felt like it was from the beginning
(07:57):
it was a.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Setup so he had an incentive to get you, ARRESTED i. Believe,
so oh my, God, well, OKAY i mean that's because what.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Else could it.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Be he, Left he didn't even start his job to finish.
It so the start was to be there for questioning if,
anything the whole, conversation he wasn't, There.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
So you're on your, own, right and then what.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
HAPPENS i want to Bring laura into this conversation because
she's so familiar with all this kind of nons she
know better than. THAT i Think antoine's case is a
roadmap how not to do.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
Things it's also a roadmap in a sense of what
happens when you're. Innocent when you're, innocent you're always happy
to talk to someone because, frankly you know you didn't do.
It but how smart to get a lawyer at least
before you do talk to someone on something you don't.
Know so that was such a smart. Move we usually
hear people go into the station all the. Time not
(08:47):
everybody's smart enough to bring a. Lawyer unfortunately for, him
the lawyer was very negligent and left and didn't come.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Back they then put.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Him in a lineup and the two gentlemen he was
sitting with the cops actually we now, know said go
ahead and pick that gentleman. Out later one of them quickly,
recanted so its not that, guy but it was too.
Late they've been identified and Off antoine.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Was so you got to remember these two. Guys both
of these guys was heroin, addicts you. Know and the
one GUY i think Was coleman who said he, said,
man they KNEW i was a dope thing when they arrested.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Me he, SAID i would.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Say my mother Killed kennedy if they had made me do.
It you, know he said. That because this guy came
to court and he. Apologized coleman is the only one who. Apologized,
well both of them came to court and admitted why
they lied because the police had arrested, them these same
two guys.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Before, see they had a history with these same.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Detectives so it kind of weigh, out you, know once
you start your investigation and you really get to see
how they're.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Connected there's a really important thing that, happens or actually
doesn't happen during the, trial, right which is that now
that you've already been screwed over by the first, lawyer
now you get a second.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Lawyer the second one really, yea fucked you.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Over i'm also paid FOR i like what you said
that he really.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Did your attorney neglected to do things that a third
grader would have, done, right which, is he neglected to
call the witnesses who would have placed you elsewhere at
the time of the. Crime and he neglected to call the.
Victim there were two. Victims one of them was a.
Lie he couldn't call the dead, guy, right but the
living Guy.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Coleman.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Right he wanted to, testify, Right and sometimes guys don't
want to. Testify he wanted to. Testify so all this
idiot that was representing, you AND i say that in
the nicest possible.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Way don't be.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Nice all this guy would have had to do is
say your, honor like IN. Tv i'd like to bring
to the Stands James, coleman and Then, coleman who got
shot would have said that you weren't the, guy and
then you would have gone home and.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Let's talk about that for a.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Second so were you not able to say to your,
attorney hey, man call THE i.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
DID i said, it AND i had people getting and
gathering the witnesses. People that was actually that he goes
to a crime scene so long after the incident and
couldn't find. Anybody he went into the liquor store asking
questions about inside of a liquor. Store now keep in
mind that they said that this was actually going to
(11:33):
be a stick up. Murder they said THAT i was
robbing a dice game AND i saw these two guys
WHO i had some issues, with and begin to.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Shoot this is what they.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Said my intention was to rob a dice, game a
two dollars dice, game which was a, JOKE a.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Two dollar dice. Game, yeah and you had two.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
CARS i had two, cars, buildings and a lot of other.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Stuff so these people say.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
They really didn't need four, hours, RIGHT i really didn't
a two dollars dice. Game so he said that this
was the reason for the. Shooting so when they came
back to me with the explanation of WHY i supposed
to shot these two, Guys James coleman had always, said
you wasn't the, guy he, said AND i told him.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
That he, said but, MAN i was. Sick you.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
KNOW i had a conversation with, him and he said
THAT i was. SICK i talked to this man on the,
phone you, know a whole lot of. Times and he
even went to my, mother's to my parents' house and
told my mom THAT i lied on. Him for that,
reason he, said AND i need to straighten it. Out
he just couldn't get hisself, together and he said it
(12:42):
also in, court say his life had really fell apart
because he knew he lied on. Me but then the other,
guy the real, girly his intention was. Money his family
wanted me to pay. Them if you give us THIS x.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Amount of, dollars we'll walk. Away we won't even show up.
Speaker 5 (12:59):
In court because was originally a witness against, you, Right
and then he was ready to testify at the, trial
and he had, lied.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
RIGHT i just want to make that clear to the.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Audience so ultimately you had an, option WHICH i find
is an interesting. Thing, Right so your co defendant chose
to be tried by a jury and you chose to
be tried by a.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Judge let's talk about, that because when we went into the.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
COURTROOM i kind.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Of felt that this judge wasn't the JUDGE i. WANTED
i didn't want a bench. TRIAL i never wanted a bench.
Trial the attorney wanted a bench. TRIAL i wanted to pick,
twelve but he denied me a jury. Trial he told
me THAT i waited too late to.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Pick a jury. Trial the judge tell you the judge.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Did he, said we waited too late to pick a jury,
trial AND i wanted.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
TWELVE i never trusted the.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Judge or is that a?
Speaker 6 (13:49):
Thing you are supposed to demand trial by jury when
you file your answer when you. APPEAR i don't know
if he failed to do. That if he did that
alone is. Malpractice but what you do is you routinely
ask for a jury and then if later you want
to switch to a bench you can. So either he
didn't ask for it early on we never.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Could seess that.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Out or he thought the judge would be good for
them and then counseled him. Incorrectly but in any, event
he counseled him against his wishes and against what would
have been hopefully a much better outcome with twelve people
and minds.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
YOU i walked into the police. Station they had to
run this guy. Down the guy is inconcrated right now
for the. Murder they had to run him. Down they found.
Him which guy you talking? About my co, defendant, Right?
Okay who they made my co. DEFENDED i don't like
claiming him BECAUSE i didn't even know this.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Guy but they found him.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Later he found him later on and arrested him and
brought him. In so Now i'm demanding a separate. Trial
but they tried us just the same. Time SO i
felt my rights was BECAUSE i almost took. OVER i
Know i'm not an, attorney BUT i got good common.
SENSE i don't want to sit at the table with this,
guy and he is the. Shooter so Now i'm sitting
(15:03):
at the. Table so what he Did he simultaneously tried
us in the same, day the same court with the same.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
People, yeah that seems.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
Crazy so you end up getting convicted and being sent
to a really scary.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Place oh, Yeah pontiac prison guards to tell you welcome To.
Pontiac in fifteen, minutes you had your own personal.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Shak your own personal, Shak, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And you had.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It place was full of blood already when you walked
through those big doors slide, open AND i ain't never
been in prison.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Before, man it was it was.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
SHOCKING i read that there were three hundred and sixty
incarcerated men in the prison at that time in five.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Guards, yeah in one, building.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
In one, building yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
YEAH i mean that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.
EITHER i mean one building and the guards had automatic,
weapons and there were bullet, holes and there was a
sign that said gud rapped to the ground if bullets are.
Fired whee that sign where you, like AM i in a?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
War?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah that's What that's what it. Was you can be
on the yard in five seconds and watch somebody get.
Stabbed that's the reason they tell you if you go,
down drop to the, ground.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Because then they're gonna start to. Shoot being vastly outnumbered
as the guards, were that's their last, recourse. RIGHT i
mean that's a tough job. TOO i, MEAN i, mean just.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
For the sake of knowing what exactly, happens you, know
BECAUSE i know they. Exaggerated so those guards are not
moving three hundred guys at one. Time in the, salehouse
you move only a section at a, Time so you
might see thirty, guys two, guards one in the, front
one in the, back and then the guy own with
the rifle that's gonna knock your brains, out And pontiac is.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Held, well you were in lockdown sometimes twenty four hours a.
Day yeah, RIGHT i mean there was a. Month there
was a month where you were never let out of your.
CELL i, mean it's incredible that you have any mental,
faculties you, know preserved after.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
That it was more than a. Month they used to
lock us, down The pontiac for a. Year lock you, down.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
So no, shower no.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Nothing you get a shower once a, week and other
than that you're locked down twenty a.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Week, yeah twenty four seven in yourself with someone, else.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
With someone else and the, toilet and EVERY i mean
every day they would lock you. Down if an incident,
occurred somebody got, stabbed they lock you.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Down you'd be locked up six.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Months they let you off two, days somebody else get,
hit they lock you up another six.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Months And i'm talking about complete.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Lockup pontiac was held because it was like it was
almost like a, supermax but it was one of the
roughest max joints In. Illinois and every day you see
either someone getting, raped somebody getting, stabbed somebody getting beat
half to death or somebody getting shot by the. Guards that's,
Insane and then you talk about the. TRAUMA i watched
(17:49):
the man in front of my. CELL i had just
finished working. OUT i came in to get in the
shower and the guard was telling him to put his hands,
down and he was talking with his, hands and he
shot him so. Fast you just see the blood, jump
like from the first floor to the third.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Floor he hit him so fast and.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Killed the man instantly because he was talking on his.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Hands, yeah you, know because potential. Violence you, know guys
do that when they're getting ready to do. Something so
these are the. SIGNS i guess he blew his brains.
Out but this place is what you saw every. Day
either you, came you got up to go to work
in the. MORNING i used to leave out five in the.
MORNING i had an institutional, job SO i work all
over the, penitentiary death, row protect the.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
CUSTODY i work all over the.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Joint SO i get ready to leave out in the
morning AND i walk past the guy's sell he's hanging, there.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Just hanging. There you.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
KNOW i used to see so much of it you
become numb to. It and that's a shame.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
And the scene you're describing Makes Shaw Shank redemptions sound
like A disney.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
MOVIE i, mean it's just it. Was, yeah it's as
bad as it.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Gets, yeah it's so bizarre that we have it absolutely,
wrong absolutely. Backwards and In Western european countries and In
scandinavian countries and.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
All over the world they take the opposite.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Approach their thing is when you get, out you're going
to have to live next door to, somebody maybe. Me,
Right so at one point a couple of good things. Happen,
Right you found sort of hope and sanity and music, again,
Right AND i thought that was a brave thing that you,
did because there were at the time no musical instruments
(19:29):
in this prison hell whatever you want to call, it,
right and you were able to convince the, warden.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Superintendent kelly it was my, buddy.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Right so he at your behas he ordered some, instruments
and you got to put together a little band and
get a little some kind of, JOY i, guess.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah because we had been on lockdown so much and
they had had some instruments they had it was.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Garbage So kelly.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Had decided that if that would keep us peaceful around
a joint well ordered some more.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Instruments so he ordered some more.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Drums and guitars and, amps and it was called The
Power Soul, Band Our Soul Power Soul, Band and so
we played and most of the guys was in the
band had natural. Life so those guys are still locked.
Up so we had A we had a nice band,
man and the unit was good and it kept things kind.
OF i, mean we didn't go on lock down for
(20:22):
like maybe a year and a.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Half you, know it.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Was because guys wanted to get out when we. Performed
they wanted to be, there they wanted to see. It you,
know it's like you going to a, party.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Right so they had a reason and right to not
want to be violent because if they, did they would
be depriving this little bit of, hope joy, music you,
know life distraction everyone to call. It it is important
for people to recognize we need to improve the, conditions
but also bring arts and bring education into the, prison
recognizing that ninety five plus percent of people in prison
(20:56):
are going to get out at some point and have
to rejoin the.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Community WHEN i was, LIKE i heard a politician, saying
why SHOULD i spend twenty thousand dollars on a convict
to get an education WHEN i have to pay for
my sons and daughters to go to. School and they took,
school they took the college because you suhould get a
bachelor's associated all kind of degrees in, prison and guys
come out and make a difference in their. Lives they'd
(21:20):
come out and do better than what they did when
they went in because they was able to get a,
job come employed. Today it's not you come, out you just.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Out that's an extremely ignorant thing for the guy to,
say because if he had done any studying at, all
he would know that in places where those kind of programs,
exist the people coming out have a tremendous rate of,
success staying crime, free paying, taxes contributing to the, community
reconnecting with, family.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
All those positive aspects of.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Society so even if you're not looking at it from
a human point of, view just looking at it from
a protecting and improving society point of, view the benefits
are immense and only the most maya pick and closed
minded individuals can see it any other. Way so music
came in to give a little something back to your, soul,
right give you a little bit of. Hope and then
(22:11):
you had sort of the guy you would call your, angel,
right sort of appear In, miraculous who was actually a
real estate.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Lawyer, right and he was an angel for.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Real so let's talk about. Him his name what was
his name of This Joseph howard Or Howard, Joseph Howard, Joseph,
right tell me about this, Guy Howard.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Joseph first of, all let me tell YOU i never
admitted to ever being in love with a, man BUT
i love this, man. Right this is my Little jewish.
Love this is my. Man Howard joseph was an, angel you.
Know he came in and WHAT i liked about him
was he was, Bossy Like, lord he's, bossy, Right and
he came in and one DAY i was working out
(22:49):
on the yard and he, said, man you got a,
visit so you gotta. VISIT i said a? Visit he, said,
yeah your. ATTORNEY i ain't got no, attorney so, yeah
you got an. Attorney SO i. GO i go to
the front to the visiting, room and there he. Is
he's standing. There The jewish guy had on lorraine, coat
(23:11):
little flip, flops looking Like, colombo Remember.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Colombo and they come in and that's who he remind me.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Of So i'm looking at him and so he, said
say that. Wine he, said, okay he's sitting. Down SO
i sat. Down i'm, like what's.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
This old man telling me to? Say? Boston me?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Around and he said sit, Down SO i sat. Down
he Said i'm your. ATTORNEY i, said you my. Attorney
SO i was, like, yeah so this is a, joke,
Right i'm thinking it's a. Joke he, said, No i'm your.
Attorney he, said your sister and my son had been
talking AND i read your, case he, said AND i
just need you to be. Patient we're going to get
(23:46):
you out of, here you. Know AND i just looked
at him like, this this has got to be a.
Joke so he drove three hours one way to come see,
me and he was about seventy two, then and he
drove back, home and he drove. Again he came again
AND i, said are you driving away down by? Yourself
he said, yeah give me a chance to. Think so
(24:08):
he would. Come people would laugh at. Him he, said
get you out of. Here SO i PUT i put
faith in that he'd ask for. Nothing he'dn't ask for,
anything you. KNOW i tried to pay for his gas
and buying food and he's.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Well he had a he had a phrase that he
would repeat to, you, right which.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Was that's when we made it to the county.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Jail oh, yeah he would every day he would, say
so you're ready to go.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
HOME i, said of, Course i'm ready to go. Home he,
said are you ready to go? Home you got some?
Clothes your mama bring you some. CLOTHES i said. No
so it went on for like two, years almost to that.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Day you guys had like a routine on.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Him, yeah we had a, routine.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
MAN i MEAN i loved his heart because he was.
Consistent you, know he was a, man had no greed.
Involved he didn't ask for. Anything he always told, me he,
said nobody know your case better than you.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Do attention to.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
It he was a real estate, lawyer, right actually he was.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
A criminal attorney higher then he just did real. Estate got,
it just did real estate for, years and so when
he saw my, case he wanted to get back in the.
Game he, said you would be my last, case AND i.
WAS i was actually his last.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Case it's kind of a, miracle, yeah actually, Right, yeah
he would just pop up out of nowhere AND i
could see why you thought you were being, punked so to, speak, right.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
He did punk, me he. Did he made me sit.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Down so ultimately your Little Jewish stardian angel appears on
the scene and.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
He did what he said he was going to.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
Do he did because otherwise you wouldn't be sitting here
because you had your sentence was you had two sentences,
right for two different, crimes because.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Murder temp, murder and they charged me with this arm
and the farm within the city limits by, felon they
gave me a temp.
Speaker 5 (25:46):
Murder this was nineteen ninety, Two, antoine and you were
send sixty years for murder and twenty five years for attempted.
Murder so he came along just in the nicked time
because you weren't going to spend the rest of your
life in. Prison, yeah there was no doubt about. It
so ultimately he. Won and what did judge say when
when he vacated your?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Conviction?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Oh, man the judge was, like, uh he asked me
IF i had any last, words you, know DID i
want to say?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Anything?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
MAN i kind of went off in the courtroom BECAUSE
i told the, JUDGE i said the state's attorney knew
all the time that they were lying on. Me he
knew all the time because he kept telling, me you
give us what we, want you can go. Home he
knew all the. Time So judge, said miss. Day he,
said he, said how you. FEEL i, Said i'm. Okay he,
said well the days you're. Lucky day you're going. Home and,
(26:33):
MAN i, MEAN.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I wasn't even, shocked you, know it was just LIKE
i was just standing.
Speaker 5 (26:37):
There and what was what was YOUR i, Mean i'm
just trying to have this beautiful picture in my mind
of you And.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Howard Mister, howard he just reachtove and hugged. Me you, know,
well let me tell you this part before we get
to that good. Part let me tell you how the
state's attorneys treated. Him they used to laugh at. Him
state's attorney used to look at me while we're sitting
in the courtroom in his fancy. Suit mister how would
have on flip flops and they would laugh.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
At him like he was a.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Joke they would laugh at him like, so the state's
attorney would sit back in his chair do this to.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Me he's pulling his finger across his throat like you, know.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Like he's slashing my throat Like i'm, Dead ali, said
don't worry about.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
HIM i got. Him he, Said i'm good with bullies
because they're.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Bullies at that, day you should have seen the expressions
on these guys. Faces they just couldn't believe that this
little man just beat them, up this.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Bad the.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Wrong little, jew you, know and he cursed like a.
Seller so he was cursing all the while we were in.
Court he was mfing and all kinds of. Stuff he
just didn't play no. Games and this judge told, me you,
know he was, saying you've been blessed because this man
did his due.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Diligence he got me out of.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
There i'm getting a chill right. Now so he's become
sort of a mythical. Figure he has a program named after,
Him oh, yeah In illinois and.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Stuff he's not around, anymore.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yes because his work is my.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Work his spirit lives on in you and also in
the program that's named after. Him, So, antoine the way
(28:23):
that you found out about your conviction being vacated is
a very. Unusual in, Fact i've never heard anything quite like.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It can you share that? Story me and a.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Guy Kenny.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Williams we were on the yard at In stateville actually
when he transferred me To stateville who was working out
on the. Yard he was reading the newspaper that we're
not supposed to.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Have in the.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Newspaper it had my case had been. Overturned so this
guy Had he had called my name. OUT i thought
he was just. Joking he called my name out. Again
he was, like, man so you got to come see.
This SO i walked over and looked in the. Newspaper
it was like.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Wow SO i called my.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Attorney my attorney THOUGHT i was joking and he didn't
believe it because he didn't know anything about.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
It was It April fools or.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Something it felt like.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
It, Yeah so WHEN i told, him he went, crazy you,
know he was like cursing me, out Thinking i'm.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Joking so he went and got the.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Paper he ran out of his, office walked and got the,
paper came, back AND i called him.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Back he was, like it is they overturned the.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Case so he was trying to figure out how could
they possibly do this because time run at that moment
and you only have a certain amount of time to
meet it before you probably miss it and miss all
the pill. Processes so he went and got right on
top of it and then maybe like a year, later
(29:42):
they moved me back to the county.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
Jail now that's another, thing, Right so anyone listening would, Say,
okay well it's in the. Newspaper your conviction has been.
Overturned so wouldn't they want to send you home at that? Point,
no not exactly, right not In, chicago not at.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
That, time not the processes of. Politics back to the county.
Jail so now you go, back and you go back
in front of the. Judge he listened to the new,
evidence he listened to all this stuff that went. On
SO i was in the county jail for maybe a
little over two. YEARS i was a. BARBER i was
cutting the hand in the county and working in a.
BARBERSHOP i was In division, eleven pretty, good, clean pretty white.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Building it was real neat and clean over.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
There and they moved me one, night maybe like four
in the morning or am moved me To division. ONE
i didn't know. WHY i hadn't done, anything hadn't been
in no, trouble straight and narrow so far put me
in the cell with a. GUY i didn't know who
he was at the, time but my son was. Killed
he got killed in two. THOUSAND i came home two
(30:44):
thousand and. Two he was seventeen when they moved me
From division. Eleven they moved me To division, one and
they put me in the cell with the guy that
actually killed.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Him they put you in the, cell, yeah putting the
guy who killed your.
Speaker 5 (30:57):
Son and it wasn't a long. Time but this is re,
right press, right AND i mean my head is, exploding,
Right and they did this.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
On, purpose, right because it was not a.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
Coincidence and it's also strange that they did it at
four in the, morning, right it's not the typical time
that they move. You and they've been moved for no
reason except there was a reason because from WHAT i
can figure, out they didn't like the fact that you
were going to get out and that you had proven them.
Wrong you and with the help of this magical seventy
(31:33):
something year old attorney who didn't dress right and was
being made by the.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Prosecutor so they didn't like.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
That so that it sounds to me AND i hate
to think in terms that are so. Sinister but you
were a big guy back, then, Right you were bench
pressing five hundred.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
POUNDS i was in the fire. Club we just called
the five hundred.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Club so they moved you to this, cell thinking this
guy meaning, you you're going to kill this other, guy BECAUSE.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I mean it SEEMED i, mean of, course like.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
WHAT i did recognize WAS i went back in my
head for a little while BECAUSE i remember WHEN i
was In, pontiac how the state's attorney had came and investigated,
me was asking all these questions around, me AND i
was never supposed to know that they were even, there
BUT i found, out and it was kind of this
(32:25):
made a little bit more familiar to what the process
was of them keeping me. Incocerated IF i catch another,
case then my appeal is non and. Void it's just
not gonna. Happen so they put me in this predicament
with this. Guy either he was going to kill me
OR i was gonna kill. Him it would have been
a lose lose situation for me to do something or
(32:46):
have something done to. Me, SO i, mean it's a chess.
Game they made their, moves SO i had to make.
Mine my move was to call the guard and tell
THEM i refuse housing SO i can be taken out
of this. Situation you, know because at this, POINT i,
MEAN i got great common.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Sense i'm this close to. Home i'm not going to blow.
Speaker 5 (33:03):
It even for the literally the most extreme situation you
can possibly find.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yourself it wouldn't have did. Anything it wouldn't have brought them. Back,
no IF i had to beat them to a, pope
it wouldn't have brought him. Back so man of the,
matter you, know it's just at a point you just
have to think about the future.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
Now that that's an incredible it's a mind blowing. Story
AND i never shared this.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Story so if people don't even know about, this you
seem to get all getting it all out of me.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Today know what going on around?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Here none of us could possibly. Understand nobody that hasn't
been doing that.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
Understand but it's a miracle that you were able to
resist an impulse that must have been as powerful as
any that anybody could.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Imagine but it, IS.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I, mean it's it's a. Thing you, Know.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I've always heard the term of feeling your blood. Boil you,
know how you just feel your body go to a
whole nother temperature that would be. It your ethers get
the rise and you get the. Sweating and that's WHY
i was going through BECAUSE i have told myself.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Over and over and over and over and over. Again
IF i ever see, them What i'm going to do to?
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Them?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Right you, know IF i ever because you always, talk
you avenge your family and stand up for your, family
and when you put in these situations in this, circumstance you,
KNOW i always said that to, myself SO i had
to escalate.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Immediately you.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Know it's almost like who could blame? You you're in
year eight or nine of your wrongful.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
Incarceration you've been through everything that they can throw at,
you and now you just lived through the worst thing
that a parent can go through is to lose a
child and then to be put in a tiny cell
with a. Guy but you're, right it wouldn't accomplish. Anything
but it's easy to say from here you didn't. Here
it's easy to. Say so this is SOMETHING i really
want to highlight because in twenty five years of doing,
(34:51):
this the first thing that people ask me almost every
TIME i tell a story like yours is do they get?
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Compensated this? Man did this? Woman tell? Me they get?
Speaker 5 (35:02):
Yeah and you should see like the eyes are bugging,
out like you, know because if you if you're not
familiar with, this and a lot of people, aren't when
you first hear one of these, stories you get so. Shook,
right tell me they get, Paid tell me they get
something when they get. Out and you, KNOW i think
it's shocking to a lot of people to learn that
a lot of exgneries get, nothing, period full, stop end of. Story,
(35:22):
right they just have to go figure it out with
this twenty year gap or whatever it might. Be but
even if you do get, paid because people see the
stories in the, paper sometimes somebody successfully sues for civil
rights violation or whatever it is and gets millions of,
dollars which they, deserve and still DOESN'T i don't know
too many people that would, say, OH.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
I GOT i got a deal for.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
You you're gonna do ten twenty years in the most dangerous,
place one of the most dangerous places on, Earth like
you literally be better off trying to find diamonds in
a river In africa with with crocodiles and, hippos then
you would be In pontiac. PRISON i don't know too
many people that would, say, Ye i'll take that. Deal,
Yeah i'm gonna go do that ten years and give
me the money at the.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
End so that's out the.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Window but the fact is that even the people who
do get compensated have to wait an incredibly long, time
years and years to get their, money and in the
meantime they're stuck in sort of a twilight. Zone, Right
and there's no better example than. YOURS i want to
talk about. THAT i want to hear it in your own.
Words the judge has just, said today's your lucky. Day
(36:26):
do you want to go? Home you And howard are, hugging,
right Mister. Howard and you didn't just walk out the. Door, No,
no there was a.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Process, oh the process is.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Terrible so after The sokar, release it took me almost
eight hours to get out of, that if not more,
so they run you right back through the. Process SO
i had to go back down in this dungeon in
the bottom of the county. Jail in the, bottom it's
the last basement in the county. Jail so it's really
pipes and plumbing and rats and everything just in this, place,
(37:00):
Right and it's a room a little bigger than this,
room and it's a pile of. Clothes so in these
pile of clothes used to close. Guys it's took off
coming in who slept in them maybe a week inside
one of these jails on the street and they make
you pick out some clothes out of this powder in order.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
To walk out of, here and they haven't been.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Washed haven't been.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Washed oh, MAN i picked the biggest PIECE i could
so it wouldn't really be attached to. Me SO i
picked out a jigging, suit a black jigging suit with
a hood because the guard says raining outside real. Bad
SO i picked out it had a hood on. It
the suit LIKE i would extra. Large this suit had
to be a three x of four.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
X it was so. Big the sleeves was hanging and
it stinks so.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
BAD i mean reek of just, urine and you, know
BUT i had no choice IF i wanted to stay
another day in the county, jail another two days in
the county, jail because you get lost in that system so.
Easily SO i, said, No i'm gonna grab. Something SO
i grabbed that in the jigging pants.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
And it held your nose, basically.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yes and just got used to. It you, KNOW i
just lived in.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
Filth and the issue was that because it took hours
and hours for this process to, happen Mister, howard COULDN'T
i like calling it Mister howard a legendary, too So
i'm picking up after. You so he wasn't able to, stay,
right he had another obligation of something he had to.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Go i'm, right so he went home to take care
of his. Wife but then we never know how long
you'll be. There he's not coming out in thirty, minutes twenty,
minutes you, know it's a. Process so, NO i didn't
want to make him, stay so he. Went he went,
home and at this, point nobody knew that this was
going to happen this, day so my family wasn't even,
(38:47):
there SO i just ended up just coming.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Out they FINALLY i put the clothes, on they put me.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Out they kept my forty three dollars and some eye.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Change, well your forty three dollars wasn't even. There it
was in a different, right so you had no ability
to access, that and they send you. Out what the
date of the release Was? May, right it Was may,
ninth But may is not. Exactly it's not warm at
night In may In, chicago so it's cold and, rainy.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Rainy, yeah and it's, Dark, yeah it's.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Dark AND i stood in the rain man for about three,
hours just, wondering trying to figure it. OUT i had
no money to get. HOME i had, nothing absolutely. Nothing
SO i was just standing, there soaking with freaking of
Old i've never experienced in my life until somebody pulled
up on me and, SAID i got one of my.
(39:36):
Buddies you, know he didn't even. Know he, Says so
what you're doing out? HERE i just broke? Out he,
Said so you need a, Ride so you, know guys
quick to help you if you committed a, CROWN i.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
Guess and this isn't just any street. Corner it's twenty
six in Cow so that is the hub of The
chicago criminal court. System it's the busiest court system in the.
World it's not in a great. Neighborhood during the, day everyone's,
saying be, careful be, careful be careful when you go out.
There he has not been in society for over a,
decade and he has walked out onto this dangerous street
(40:10):
corner without a bus, cart without AN, id without a,
phone without frankly much of an, identity and just there you.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Go will people get killed right in front of the.
Building he just had an incident a couple of weeks,
ago a guy got. Killed right with all this police
activity he gets murdered right on the.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Street it's so interesting and it's uplifting because at the
end of the, day randomly in the city the size Of,
chicago your friend happened to be driving, by, like, yo
what are you doing? Here and, LIKE i, mean that's
another little, miracle, Right but.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Well i'm, BLESSED i know.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
That, Yeah, well that's an amazing thing for somebody to
say that's been through ten years inside the most horrific prison,
system nightmare for something he didn't.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Do but it's a great way to look at.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
It and the fact, is it's almost like the energy
feel that Mister howard, created and then this guy was
sort of an extension of, that like your other guardian.
Angels but there's no planet on which we should allow
somebody to emerge from this what sort of an extra
fuck you right, here get out of, here smelling like
(41:13):
you just rolled around in the you, know in the,
gutter and then good luck not.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Even like not even good.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Luck, NO i, Mean i'll get the hell out right
and if you get, killed you because we don't care
about you before and we don't care about you. Now
i'm not saying they necessarily have to have a chariot
waiting for you with white horses or a golden thing or.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Whatever but a.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Bus ticket would have been. FINE a bus, TICKET a.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Phone, call, yeah that would have been.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Fun about a phone, call can somebody come give? Me
they don't give you any of, it they're not. RESPONSIBLE
a phone call would have been. Good phone, call, Great.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
LAURA i want to turn to you because you have
a new book out WHICH i read AND i.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Love it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence thank.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
You.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yeah and in the, book you paired, exoneries Including, antoine
with legendary authors in order to tell their story in
a way that is particularly poignant and also really sort of.
Succinct so can you talk about that process BECAUSE i
love the book AND i hope everybody will check it.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Out anatomy Of, Innocence thank.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
You.
Speaker 6 (42:31):
Yeah it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence and we basically are trying,
to in, fact do what you're. Doing we're trying to
get inside the, mind inside the, soul behind the eyes
of someone who went through a wrongful. Conviction so we've
broken it down into. Stages the knock on the, door you,
know the first time you When antoine heard his, name
(42:53):
was getting batted. Around what do you do when you hear?
Guilty because every xonary thinks they'll here not guilty because
they can tell that the criminal justice system is not
working well because they're in it and they're. Innocent but
they all think they're hill not, guilty all of, them
and they hear. Guilty there's hearing all sorts of testimony
about yourself at, trial which isn't. True there's the walking
(43:16):
into prison for the first, time dealing with the crazies
that are in, there finding someone to get you, out
and then the fact that freedom is just the. Beginning
we wanted to show that sometimes they happen like, This
sometimes they happen like you see ON tv where you
see people outside holding up the, arms and other, Times
And antoine's is not the only Case i've heard of
(43:38):
about being released onto the street with. NOTHING i, mean
it's more frequent than.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Not it's just another bizarre aspect of the whole. Thing
so it is a bizarre.
Speaker 6 (43:46):
Aspect and, frankly so many of these things are so.
Fortuitous and he said he feels. Lucky antoine, SAID i feel,
lucky AND i, think you, Know i've heard people say
that exoneries are the luckiest unlucky.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
People AND i mean it was.
Speaker 6 (43:59):
Strangey even WHEN i Met, ANTOINE i had taken another ex.
Hoonery antoine has been working in re entry since he got,
out AND i took another exonery to get services he
ran Into. Antoine antoine did not know he was an ex.
Hoonery Howard joseph had, died and he also didn't know
That illinois was one of the states that had, compensation
(44:20):
and he had about twenty eight days from the TIME
i met him to file or. Forever it's gone.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
Forever hold your.
Speaker 5 (44:27):
Piece so WHAT i took from the book also each
of those. Stories it's so. Fascinating, Again i'm getting the.
Chills you can't make these stories. Up and when you read,
them and when you read them written so beautifully by
such important literary figures as you have put together In
anatomy Of, NICs it's really it's a great experience reading the.
(44:47):
Book so tell us About life After, innocence because that's
a program you run At, loyola Right.
Speaker 6 (44:52):
Life After innocence is a clinic At Loyola Chicago school Of,
law and we in fact have The Howard Joseph award
that we give every year in Mister howard's honor for
people who help the innocent without basically seeking compensation or.
Recognition so my law students AND i since two thousand
and nine have been representing x houneries to help them start. Over,
(45:14):
previously we did a lot. More when we started in
two thousand and, nine one or two people got out
a year in THE. Us now it's three a. Week
so now we're focusing primarily on criminal records, relief getting
their records, cleared because what most people don't know is
that When antoine walked, out even though his case had been,
overturned when he got pulled over by the, cops it's
still a convicted. Murderer so till someone goes in and
(45:38):
gets your record cleaned, up it's still on your. Record
doesn't matter even IF dna showed who it really, was
still on your. Record so we get that cleaned up
and then we push for, legislation which we've been successful
on so slowly we're adding to the services that ex
houneries get In.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Illinois that's incredible.
Speaker 5 (45:54):
Work AND i also want to just touch on Briefly Joseph,
howard who now has the award made. Death you can't
see it on the, radio AS i always, say But
i've been Watching antoine's body, language and every time this
man's name comes, up he sort of sits up straight
and starts smiling. Uncontrollably and for those of you.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Trying to start from, Crying i'm telling you, something, man
is this Is it always seemed to, Happen but this
guy has really touched my soul in the way that
he operated and what he did for, me BECAUSE i
only pay it forward and because of. Him because of, him,
MAN i, mean it means a. Lot so, YEAH i
(46:34):
carry him very, high you.
Speaker 5 (46:35):
Know AND i want to give a shout out to
all THE i know there's a lot of attorneys that
listen to the show who do incredible amounts of pro
bono work on behalf of people like, yourself and to
all of, THEM i just want to say that you
have all of our respect.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
And appreciation because we couldn't do it without.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
You and if anybody is considering getting into the, WORK
i encourage you to to meet somebody Like antoine and
see what it's meant in a very personal and magical.
Way so we will continue to Honor Joseph howard by
continuing to support the work. Now as is a tradition
on wrong for, conviction we always like to give you
(47:18):
the exgnery the last, word so we'll turn it over to.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
You, Okay, well thank you so.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
MUCH i do appreciate being, here getting an opportunity to
share and to enlighten people of what really goes on
outside of just the, media and to thank people Like
laura and yourself for having this. Platform but most of,
ALL i like to say WHERE i am today is
because of somebody's.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Help the things THAT i do.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Today i'm a court advocate for juvenile youth In chicago
when they go to court.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
To make sure they're not wronged LIKE i.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Was so when they get, ARRESTED i get a phone
call and we appear in. COURT i support them also
with the Family, AGAIN i work in one of the
most harshest communities in the city Of chicago and throughout
the state AT Bbf Family, services Where i'm able to
give back to the community with Mister joe gave to
me Through loyola and working With laura and the things
(48:17):
she did for me helped me. Create, also me And
Jared adams helped me create life after.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Justice even after.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Her, work we continue to do, it so we are
springboard off of what she. Did so what she has
done for me is also paying it for it again
and making things happen when you can help somebody, Else
and that's what we don't do enough of in this,
country in this. World were more worried about other activities
around the world when.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
We really flat on our back right.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Here SO i just really appreciate the opportunity to say
thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
And keep it going and keep calling me BECAUSE i
don't mind.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
COMING i believe in the, work and this is WHAT i,
love you, KNOW i love giving it. Back like you,
said you, Know i'm. Inspired you KNOW i had a great.
Mom i'm inspired by my, sister who you, KNOW i
always say she talked too, much but then that particular
time she talked at the right time in order to
meet Mister joe's, son WHO i think not enough but
(49:13):
as much AS i possibly.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Can i'm very, grateful and LIKE i, Said i'm. Blessed
i'm blessed to be in this in this particular position
Where i'm able to help other. People that's HOW i help.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
MYSELF i need to be an Angel i'm trying to learn,
it you, know, so Mister, Joe i'm trying to learn
how to be that example he would be proud of
me to.
Speaker 5 (49:31):
Be, WELL i THINK i can say that he would,
be And i'm sure he. Is and you are a
great example of everything that's good and right about this.
Cause and people like you are the strongest forces we
have because the stories are just so incredible and so,
(49:51):
powerful and SO i appreciate you being here and sharing.
THAT i KNEW i was going to learn something. That
don't forget to give us a fantastic Review wherever you
get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud
donor to The Innocence, project AND i really hope you'll
(50:13):
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org
to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like
to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wortis
the music in the show is by three TIME oscar
nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On
instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction.
(50:36):
Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flahm is a production Of
lava For good podcasts and association with Signal Company number
one
I think we have the best legal system.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's just the people that implement they get lost along
the way and forget.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
What their job really is.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
He just kept on trying to remind me that who
was in authority, who was in control, and how easy
it was for my body to be found in any
alley of New York City.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
It's a tough prison when you have the guards going
against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
They do that.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home
in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to
something that you didn't do? My question to them will
be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill
your life?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The judge, he said, how you feel? I said, I'm okay.
He said, well, the days you're lucky day you're going home.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flamm.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Today we have two guests and I feel really excited
about today's episode.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
We have Antoine Day.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Antoine Day sixty years for murder, twenty five years for
attempted murder.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
In nineteen ninety two, Antoine Day was found guilty of
the murder of one man and attempted murder of another
outside a liquor store on Chicago's West Side.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Convicted in nineteen ninety two, exonerated in two thousand and two.
Antoine Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
Well, thanks for having me, And with Antoine, he brought
a luminary in the criminal justice reform movement. Laura Caldwell
and Laura is an accomplished author of many many books novels,
also professor at Loyola in Chicago and the found of
the Life After Innocence.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
Yeah, Lai at Loyola University Chicago School of Law.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Got it.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
But let's go back to the beginning. You came from Illinois, right.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, West side of Chicago.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
And you were a musician, and you had some stuff
going on at the time that everything went haywire.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Right.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
It was a murder that happened at a craps game,
right right. Two people shot Thomas Peters and James Coleman,
and Peters died and Coleman was wounded, and they're out
looking for the suspects.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
How'd you get mixed up?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I got mixed up because you know, I didn't come
from that real cush community. You know, I come from
a very hard heart community, you know, the West side
of Chicago. Even right now, it's the top murder has
the top murder rate in.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The state and one of the top of the country.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, in the country. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So I lived, as I live now in its same community,
and I also I work in the second largest murder
rate in the country in Lindale. So how it happened
was I was known in the community because I was
in the street. You know, I did some things in
the street. Today I wouldn't be so proud of. But
you know, young kid, you know, you did some things,
(03:10):
and so you meet.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
People, but not necessarily violent thing.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
No, nothing violent, had nothing to do with violence. I
sold drugs, you know, I sold marijuana. I did what
most young guys my age do.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
So okay, So you were I was known.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And then I was a musician.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
We played all the community of fast concerts. We did
a lot of things. And I lived in the community,
but in this particular community I lived in. The guys
that actually got killed stayed only a block away from
my home from where I lived. He stayed the next
block over, and I didn't know them. They didn't know me,
so when the incident occurred, they said that it was
(03:48):
a black vehicle, so right away they tagged all the
black vehicles in the area. I had two black vehicles.
I had a station Wagon. I'm a car man, you know,
I love cars. So I had a station Wagon that
was fixed up, and I had a Chevy Blazer that
was also fixed up. So these two cars stay parked
in front of my home. So when the police ran
(04:08):
an icing plate, they had my name. We had played
in New Orleans. It was raining really hard, so when
we came back that morning, it was a car to
my door. So I took the car to investigator's car,
Detective Connley, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I called him. I said, you left a car to
my door for what.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
He said, well, I want you to come in and
talk to me about some things that took place over
the weekend. I said, well, I wasn't here for the weekend.
So he had the conversay. He said, well, just come in.
He asked me what did I look like? I said,
what you mean, when do I look like? He said, so,
what are your features? Are you a big guy? Your
little guy? I'm like, why would you ask me that?
Shouldn't you be telling me you're looking for me. I'm
(04:47):
not looking for you. Then he said, well, the story
was that you were, you know, about six' to two like.
Complex THEN i, said, no that's not. Me he, said
so you shouldn't have no.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Problem how tall are?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
YOU i gotta be about five, ten probably used to be.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Taller you were number six, too and like, complected you
KNOW i like complected and, yeah so you didn't fit the.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
DESCRIPTION i, didn't SO i thought maybe they just got my,
name so let me go. In so WHEN i went,
in he started asking me about my, car, said WHY
i have two? Vehicles is? Black so he went over
the thing with the. Car he asked, me had anybody
been driving the? Car?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Stant, no my cars haven't, moved been sitting all.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Week so you begin to ask me about DID i
know these particular.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
People i'm saying, NO i don't. Know don't. FORGET i
took a lawyer in with.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
ME i, mean let's adaly. This you were a thousand
miles away right when the thing.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Happened, right you didn't fit the description, Right but, still
growing up in that type of, environment you know that
the police are capable of pulling some thirty tricks, right And, chicago,
unfortunately is as infamous as, anywhere with all the scandals
that have happened, there very well.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Known so you.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Hired to learn, though because you're, thinking you, KNOW i
better BE i better just take every say. Exactly so
you hired this lawyer and then tell us the.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Story i've never been one to trust the police, anyway
because they've done a lot of things in the. Past
SO i KNEW i should maybe take this lawyer in with.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Me SO i called.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Him he, said, SURE i, come and you, KNOW i, said,
MAN i just to make sure this go. Right you,
KNOW i KNOW i haven't done, anything SO i want
to make sure this goes. Right he, said, okay he comes.
In he came to my mom's, house met me at
my mother's, house and we went to the police.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Stay how far is that maybe two.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Miles So i'm sitting in the interview, room, well not
an interview. Room it's just a, room, big, big open,
space maybe sixty seventy chairs in this.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Room i'm sitting in a.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Chair it's another guy sitting in a, chair you, know
maybe ten feet away from. Me you, know we're just.
Talking we've been sitting there so. Long so now we
begin to. Talk i'm, like, MAN i don't know why
they got me. Here he said me.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Either. Man they brought me in here and just made,
me you, know sit.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Here i've been sitting there for the longest because he
was actually here BEFORE i, here and we were just
sitting there. Talking then the detective came. In he, said,
look are you willing to stand the? LINEUP i sent a?
Lineup so Now i'm looking for my. Lawyer, logical where's my?
Lawyer where was it for this?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Lineup? Right he was.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Gone he had left a message that he was going
to his daughter's birthday.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Party so he left me in the police.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Station and you paid him five thousand.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Dollars he got five grand out of me.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
To drive you two. Miles that's like twenty five hundred.
Miles that's not not it's not bad, man that's, incredible you.
Know SO i Just i'm, SORRY i. Can't that's. CRAZY
i got to take him.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Pause how he got five thousand in the. Beginning let
me just MAKE i gave him twenty five. Hundred that
was going to the police, station, right and if anything
else had, occurred THEN i would have gave him the
rest of, it so and it. DID i guess that
was the part of the. Setup so now he gets
all his money if he leave and THEN i get.
Arrested SO i felt like it was from the beginning
(07:57):
it was a.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Setup so he had an incentive to get you, ARRESTED i. Believe,
so oh my, God, well, OKAY i mean that's because what.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Else could it.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Be he, Left he didn't even start his job to finish.
It so the start was to be there for questioning if,
anything the whole, conversation he wasn't, There.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
So you're on your, own, right and then what.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
HAPPENS i want to Bring laura into this conversation because
she's so familiar with all this kind of nons she
know better than. THAT i Think antoine's case is a
roadmap how not to do.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
Things it's also a roadmap in a sense of what
happens when you're. Innocent when you're, innocent you're always happy
to talk to someone because, frankly you know you didn't do.
It but how smart to get a lawyer at least
before you do talk to someone on something you don't.
Know so that was such a smart. Move we usually
hear people go into the station all the. Time not
(08:47):
everybody's smart enough to bring a. Lawyer unfortunately for, him
the lawyer was very negligent and left and didn't come.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Back they then put.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Him in a lineup and the two gentlemen he was
sitting with the cops actually we now, know said go
ahead and pick that gentleman. Out later one of them quickly,
recanted so its not that, guy but it was too.
Late they've been identified and Off antoine.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Was so you got to remember these two. Guys both
of these guys was heroin, addicts you. Know and the
one GUY i think Was coleman who said he, said,
man they KNEW i was a dope thing when they arrested.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Me he, SAID i would.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Say my mother Killed kennedy if they had made me do.
It you, know he said. That because this guy came
to court and he. Apologized coleman is the only one who. Apologized,
well both of them came to court and admitted why
they lied because the police had arrested, them these same
two guys.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Before, see they had a history with these same.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Detectives so it kind of weigh, out you, know once
you start your investigation and you really get to see
how they're.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Connected there's a really important thing that, happens or actually
doesn't happen during the, trial, right which is that now
that you've already been screwed over by the first, lawyer
now you get a second.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Lawyer the second one really, yea fucked you.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Over i'm also paid FOR i like what you said
that he really.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Did your attorney neglected to do things that a third
grader would have, done, right which, is he neglected to
call the witnesses who would have placed you elsewhere at
the time of the. Crime and he neglected to call the.
Victim there were two. Victims one of them was a.
Lie he couldn't call the dead, guy, right but the
living Guy.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Coleman.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Right he wanted to, testify, Right and sometimes guys don't
want to. Testify he wanted to. Testify so all this
idiot that was representing, you AND i say that in
the nicest possible.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Way don't be.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Nice all this guy would have had to do is
say your, honor like IN. Tv i'd like to bring
to the Stands James, coleman and Then, coleman who got
shot would have said that you weren't the, guy and
then you would have gone home and.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Let's talk about that for a.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Second so were you not able to say to your,
attorney hey, man call THE i.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
DID i said, it AND i had people getting and
gathering the witnesses. People that was actually that he goes
to a crime scene so long after the incident and
couldn't find. Anybody he went into the liquor store asking
questions about inside of a liquor. Store now keep in
mind that they said that this was actually going to
(11:33):
be a stick up. Murder they said THAT i was
robbing a dice game AND i saw these two guys
WHO i had some issues, with and begin to.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Shoot this is what they.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Said my intention was to rob a dice, game a
two dollars dice, game which was a, JOKE a.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Two dollar dice. Game, yeah and you had two.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
CARS i had two, cars, buildings and a lot of other.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Stuff so these people say.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
They really didn't need four, hours, RIGHT i really didn't
a two dollars dice. Game so he said that this
was the reason for the. Shooting so when they came
back to me with the explanation of WHY i supposed
to shot these two, Guys James coleman had always, said
you wasn't the, guy he, said AND i told him.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
That he, said but, MAN i was. Sick you.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
KNOW i had a conversation with, him and he said
THAT i was. SICK i talked to this man on the,
phone you, know a whole lot of. Times and he
even went to my, mother's to my parents' house and
told my mom THAT i lied on. Him for that,
reason he, said AND i need to straighten it. Out
he just couldn't get hisself, together and he said it
(12:42):
also in, court say his life had really fell apart
because he knew he lied on. Me but then the other,
guy the real, girly his intention was. Money his family
wanted me to pay. Them if you give us THIS x.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Amount of, dollars we'll walk. Away we won't even show up.
Speaker 5 (12:59):
In court because was originally a witness against, you, Right
and then he was ready to testify at the, trial
and he had, lied.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
RIGHT i just want to make that clear to the.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Audience so ultimately you had an, option WHICH i find
is an interesting. Thing, Right so your co defendant chose
to be tried by a jury and you chose to
be tried by a.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Judge let's talk about, that because when we went into the.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
COURTROOM i kind.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Of felt that this judge wasn't the JUDGE i. WANTED
i didn't want a bench. TRIAL i never wanted a bench.
Trial the attorney wanted a bench. TRIAL i wanted to pick,
twelve but he denied me a jury. Trial he told
me THAT i waited too late to.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Pick a jury. Trial the judge tell you the judge.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Did he, said we waited too late to pick a jury,
trial AND i wanted.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
TWELVE i never trusted the.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Judge or is that a?
Speaker 6 (13:49):
Thing you are supposed to demand trial by jury when
you file your answer when you. APPEAR i don't know
if he failed to do. That if he did that
alone is. Malpractice but what you do is you routinely
ask for a jury and then if later you want
to switch to a bench you can. So either he
didn't ask for it early on we never.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Could seess that.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Out or he thought the judge would be good for
them and then counseled him. Incorrectly but in any, event
he counseled him against his wishes and against what would
have been hopefully a much better outcome with twelve people
and minds.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
YOU i walked into the police. Station they had to
run this guy. Down the guy is inconcrated right now
for the. Murder they had to run him. Down they found.
Him which guy you talking? About my co, defendant, Right?
Okay who they made my co. DEFENDED i don't like
claiming him BECAUSE i didn't even know this.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Guy but they found him.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Later he found him later on and arrested him and
brought him. In so Now i'm demanding a separate. Trial
but they tried us just the same. Time SO i
felt my rights was BECAUSE i almost took. OVER i
Know i'm not an, attorney BUT i got good common.
SENSE i don't want to sit at the table with this,
guy and he is the. Shooter so Now i'm sitting
(15:03):
at the. Table so what he Did he simultaneously tried
us in the same, day the same court with the same.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
People, yeah that seems.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
Crazy so you end up getting convicted and being sent
to a really scary.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Place oh, Yeah pontiac prison guards to tell you welcome To.
Pontiac in fifteen, minutes you had your own personal.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Shak your own personal, Shak, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And you had.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It place was full of blood already when you walked
through those big doors slide, open AND i ain't never
been in prison.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Before, man it was it was.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
SHOCKING i read that there were three hundred and sixty
incarcerated men in the prison at that time in five.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Guards, yeah in one, building.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
In one, building yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
YEAH i mean that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.
EITHER i mean one building and the guards had automatic,
weapons and there were bullet, holes and there was a
sign that said gud rapped to the ground if bullets are.
Fired whee that sign where you, like AM i in a?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
War?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah that's What that's what it. Was you can be
on the yard in five seconds and watch somebody get.
Stabbed that's the reason they tell you if you go,
down drop to the, ground.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Because then they're gonna start to. Shoot being vastly outnumbered
as the guards, were that's their last, recourse. RIGHT i
mean that's a tough job. TOO i, MEAN i, mean just.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
For the sake of knowing what exactly, happens you, know
BECAUSE i know they. Exaggerated so those guards are not
moving three hundred guys at one. Time in the, salehouse
you move only a section at a, Time so you
might see thirty, guys two, guards one in the, front
one in the, back and then the guy own with
the rifle that's gonna knock your brains, out And pontiac is.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Held, well you were in lockdown sometimes twenty four hours a.
Day yeah, RIGHT i mean there was a. Month there
was a month where you were never let out of your.
CELL i, mean it's incredible that you have any mental,
faculties you, know preserved after.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
That it was more than a. Month they used to
lock us, down The pontiac for a. Year lock you, down.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
So no, shower no.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Nothing you get a shower once a, week and other
than that you're locked down twenty a.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Week, yeah twenty four seven in yourself with someone, else.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
With someone else and the, toilet and EVERY i mean
every day they would lock you. Down if an incident,
occurred somebody got, stabbed they lock you.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Down you'd be locked up six.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Months they let you off two, days somebody else get,
hit they lock you up another six.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Months And i'm talking about complete.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Lockup pontiac was held because it was like it was
almost like a, supermax but it was one of the
roughest max joints In. Illinois and every day you see
either someone getting, raped somebody getting, stabbed somebody getting beat
half to death or somebody getting shot by the. Guards that's,
Insane and then you talk about the. TRAUMA i watched
(17:49):
the man in front of my. CELL i had just
finished working. OUT i came in to get in the
shower and the guard was telling him to put his hands,
down and he was talking with his, hands and he
shot him so. Fast you just see the blood, jump
like from the first floor to the third.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Floor he hit him so fast and.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Killed the man instantly because he was talking on his.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Hands, yeah you, know because potential. Violence you, know guys
do that when they're getting ready to do. Something so
these are the. SIGNS i guess he blew his brains.
Out but this place is what you saw every. Day
either you, came you got up to go to work
in the. MORNING i used to leave out five in the.
MORNING i had an institutional, job SO i work all
over the, penitentiary death, row protect the.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
CUSTODY i work all over the.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Joint SO i get ready to leave out in the
morning AND i walk past the guy's sell he's hanging, there.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Just hanging. There you.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
KNOW i used to see so much of it you
become numb to. It and that's a shame.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
And the scene you're describing Makes Shaw Shank redemptions sound
like A disney.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
MOVIE i, mean it's just it. Was, yeah it's as
bad as it.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Gets, yeah it's so bizarre that we have it absolutely,
wrong absolutely. Backwards and In Western european countries and In
scandinavian countries and.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
All over the world they take the opposite.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Approach their thing is when you get, out you're going
to have to live next door to, somebody maybe. Me,
Right so at one point a couple of good things. Happen,
Right you found sort of hope and sanity and music, again,
Right AND i thought that was a brave thing that you,
did because there were at the time no musical instruments
(19:29):
in this prison hell whatever you want to call, it,
right and you were able to convince the, warden.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Superintendent kelly it was my, buddy.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Right so he at your behas he ordered some, instruments
and you got to put together a little band and
get a little some kind of, JOY i, guess.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah because we had been on lockdown so much and
they had had some instruments they had it was.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Garbage So kelly.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Had decided that if that would keep us peaceful around
a joint well ordered some more.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Instruments so he ordered some more.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Drums and guitars and, amps and it was called The
Power Soul, Band Our Soul Power Soul, Band and so
we played and most of the guys was in the
band had natural. Life so those guys are still locked.
Up so we had A we had a nice band,
man and the unit was good and it kept things kind.
OF i, mean we didn't go on lock down for
(20:22):
like maybe a year and a.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Half you, know it.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Was because guys wanted to get out when we. Performed
they wanted to be, there they wanted to see. It you,
know it's like you going to a, party.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Right so they had a reason and right to not
want to be violent because if they, did they would
be depriving this little bit of, hope joy, music you,
know life distraction everyone to call. It it is important
for people to recognize we need to improve the, conditions
but also bring arts and bring education into the, prison
recognizing that ninety five plus percent of people in prison
(20:56):
are going to get out at some point and have
to rejoin the.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Community WHEN i was, LIKE i heard a politician, saying
why SHOULD i spend twenty thousand dollars on a convict
to get an education WHEN i have to pay for
my sons and daughters to go to. School and they took,
school they took the college because you suhould get a
bachelor's associated all kind of degrees in, prison and guys
come out and make a difference in their. Lives they'd
(21:20):
come out and do better than what they did when
they went in because they was able to get a,
job come employed. Today it's not you come, out you just.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Out that's an extremely ignorant thing for the guy to,
say because if he had done any studying at, all
he would know that in places where those kind of programs,
exist the people coming out have a tremendous rate of,
success staying crime, free paying, taxes contributing to the, community
reconnecting with, family.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
All those positive aspects of.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Society so even if you're not looking at it from
a human point of, view just looking at it from
a protecting and improving society point of, view the benefits
are immense and only the most maya pick and closed
minded individuals can see it any other. Way so music
came in to give a little something back to your, soul,
right give you a little bit of. Hope and then
(22:11):
you had sort of the guy you would call your, angel,
right sort of appear In, miraculous who was actually a
real estate.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Lawyer, right and he was an angel for.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Real so let's talk about. Him his name what was
his name of This Joseph howard Or Howard, Joseph Howard, Joseph,
right tell me about this, Guy Howard.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Joseph first of, all let me tell YOU i never
admitted to ever being in love with a, man BUT
i love this, man. Right this is my Little jewish.
Love this is my. Man Howard joseph was an, angel you.
Know he came in and WHAT i liked about him
was he was, Bossy Like, lord he's, bossy, Right and
he came in and one DAY i was working out
(22:49):
on the yard and he, said, man you got a,
visit so you gotta. VISIT i said a? Visit he, said,
yeah your. ATTORNEY i ain't got no, attorney so, yeah
you got an. Attorney SO i. GO i go to
the front to the visiting, room and there he. Is
he's standing. There The jewish guy had on lorraine, coat
(23:11):
little flip, flops looking Like, colombo Remember.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Colombo and they come in and that's who he remind me.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Of So i'm looking at him and so he, said
say that. Wine he, said, okay he's sitting. Down SO
i sat. Down i'm, like what's.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
This old man telling me to? Say? Boston me?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Around and he said sit, Down SO i sat. Down
he Said i'm your. ATTORNEY i, said you my. Attorney
SO i was, like, yeah so this is a, joke,
Right i'm thinking it's a. Joke he, said, No i'm your.
Attorney he, said your sister and my son had been
talking AND i read your, case he, said AND i
just need you to be. Patient we're going to get
(23:46):
you out of, here you. Know AND i just looked
at him like, this this has got to be a.
Joke so he drove three hours one way to come see,
me and he was about seventy two, then and he
drove back, home and he drove. Again he came again
AND i, said are you driving away down by? Yourself
he said, yeah give me a chance to. Think so
(24:08):
he would. Come people would laugh at. Him he, said
get you out of. Here SO i PUT i put
faith in that he'd ask for. Nothing he'dn't ask for,
anything you. KNOW i tried to pay for his gas
and buying food and he's.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Well he had a he had a phrase that he
would repeat to, you, right which.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Was that's when we made it to the county.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Jail oh, yeah he would every day he would, say
so you're ready to go.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
HOME i, said of, Course i'm ready to go. Home he,
said are you ready to go? Home you got some?
Clothes your mama bring you some. CLOTHES i said. No
so it went on for like two, years almost to that.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Day you guys had like a routine on.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Him, yeah we had a, routine.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
MAN i MEAN i loved his heart because he was.
Consistent you, know he was a, man had no greed.
Involved he didn't ask for. Anything he always told, me he,
said nobody know your case better than you.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Do attention to.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
It he was a real estate, lawyer, right actually he was.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
A criminal attorney higher then he just did real. Estate got,
it just did real estate for, years and so when
he saw my, case he wanted to get back in the.
Game he, said you would be my last, case AND i.
WAS i was actually his last.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Case it's kind of a, miracle, yeah actually, Right, yeah
he would just pop up out of nowhere AND i
could see why you thought you were being, punked so to, speak, right.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
He did punk, me he. Did he made me sit.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Down so ultimately your Little Jewish stardian angel appears on
the scene and.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
He did what he said he was going to.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
Do he did because otherwise you wouldn't be sitting here
because you had your sentence was you had two sentences,
right for two different, crimes because.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Murder temp, murder and they charged me with this arm
and the farm within the city limits by, felon they
gave me a temp.
Speaker 5 (25:46):
Murder this was nineteen ninety, Two, antoine and you were
send sixty years for murder and twenty five years for attempted.
Murder so he came along just in the nicked time
because you weren't going to spend the rest of your
life in. Prison, yeah there was no doubt about. It
so ultimately he. Won and what did judge say when
when he vacated your?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Conviction?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Oh, man the judge was, like, uh he asked me
IF i had any last, words you, know DID i
want to say?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Anything?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
MAN i kind of went off in the courtroom BECAUSE
i told the, JUDGE i said the state's attorney knew
all the time that they were lying on. Me he
knew all the time because he kept telling, me you
give us what we, want you can go. Home he
knew all the. Time So judge, said miss. Day he,
said he, said how you. FEEL i, Said i'm. Okay he,
said well the days you're. Lucky day you're going. Home and,
(26:33):
MAN i, MEAN.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I wasn't even, shocked you, know it was just LIKE
i was just standing.
Speaker 5 (26:37):
There and what was what was YOUR i, Mean i'm
just trying to have this beautiful picture in my mind
of you And.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Howard Mister, howard he just reachtove and hugged. Me you, know,
well let me tell you this part before we get
to that good. Part let me tell you how the
state's attorneys treated. Him they used to laugh at. Him
state's attorney used to look at me while we're sitting
in the courtroom in his fancy. Suit mister how would
have on flip flops and they would laugh.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
At him like he was a.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Joke they would laugh at him like, so the state's
attorney would sit back in his chair do this to.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Me he's pulling his finger across his throat like you, know.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Like he's slashing my throat Like i'm, Dead ali, said
don't worry about.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
HIM i got. Him he, Said i'm good with bullies
because they're.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Bullies at that, day you should have seen the expressions
on these guys. Faces they just couldn't believe that this
little man just beat them, up this.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Bad the.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Wrong little, jew you, know and he cursed like a.
Seller so he was cursing all the while we were in.
Court he was mfing and all kinds of. Stuff he
just didn't play no. Games and this judge told, me you,
know he was, saying you've been blessed because this man
did his due.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Diligence he got me out of.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
There i'm getting a chill right. Now so he's become
sort of a mythical. Figure he has a program named after,
Him oh, yeah In illinois and.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Stuff he's not around, anymore.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yes because his work is my.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Work his spirit lives on in you and also in
the program that's named after. Him, So, antoine the way
(28:23):
that you found out about your conviction being vacated is
a very. Unusual in, Fact i've never heard anything quite like.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It can you share that? Story me and a.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Guy Kenny.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Williams we were on the yard at In stateville actually
when he transferred me To stateville who was working out
on the. Yard he was reading the newspaper that we're
not supposed to.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Have in the.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Newspaper it had my case had been. Overturned so this
guy Had he had called my name. OUT i thought
he was just. Joking he called my name out. Again
he was, like, man so you got to come see.
This SO i walked over and looked in the. Newspaper
it was like.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Wow SO i called my.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Attorney my attorney THOUGHT i was joking and he didn't
believe it because he didn't know anything about.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
It was It April fools or.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Something it felt like.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
It, Yeah so WHEN i told, him he went, crazy you,
know he was like cursing me, out Thinking i'm.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Joking so he went and got the.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Paper he ran out of his, office walked and got the,
paper came, back AND i called him.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Back he was, like it is they overturned the.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Case so he was trying to figure out how could
they possibly do this because time run at that moment
and you only have a certain amount of time to
meet it before you probably miss it and miss all
the pill. Processes so he went and got right on
top of it and then maybe like a year, later
(29:42):
they moved me back to the county.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
Jail now that's another, thing, Right so anyone listening would, Say,
okay well it's in the. Newspaper your conviction has been.
Overturned so wouldn't they want to send you home at that? Point,
no not exactly, right not In, chicago not at.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
That, time not the processes of. Politics back to the county.
Jail so now you go, back and you go back
in front of the. Judge he listened to the new,
evidence he listened to all this stuff that went. On
SO i was in the county jail for maybe a
little over two. YEARS i was a. BARBER i was
cutting the hand in the county and working in a.
BARBERSHOP i was In division, eleven pretty, good, clean pretty white.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Building it was real neat and clean over.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
There and they moved me one, night maybe like four
in the morning or am moved me To division. ONE
i didn't know. WHY i hadn't done, anything hadn't been
in no, trouble straight and narrow so far put me
in the cell with a. GUY i didn't know who
he was at the, time but my son was. Killed
he got killed in two. THOUSAND i came home two
(30:44):
thousand and. Two he was seventeen when they moved me
From division. Eleven they moved me To division, one and
they put me in the cell with the guy that
actually killed.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Him they put you in the, cell, yeah putting the
guy who killed your.
Speaker 5 (30:57):
Son and it wasn't a long. Time but this is re,
right press, right AND i mean my head is, exploding,
Right and they did this.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
On, purpose, right because it was not a.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
Coincidence and it's also strange that they did it at
four in the, morning, right it's not the typical time
that they move. You and they've been moved for no
reason except there was a reason because from WHAT i
can figure, out they didn't like the fact that you
were going to get out and that you had proven them.
Wrong you and with the help of this magical seventy
(31:33):
something year old attorney who didn't dress right and was
being made by the.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Prosecutor so they didn't like.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
That so that it sounds to me AND i hate
to think in terms that are so. Sinister but you
were a big guy back, then, Right you were bench
pressing five hundred.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
POUNDS i was in the fire. Club we just called
the five hundred.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Club so they moved you to this, cell thinking this
guy meaning, you you're going to kill this other, guy BECAUSE.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I mean it SEEMED i, mean of, course like.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
WHAT i did recognize WAS i went back in my
head for a little while BECAUSE i remember WHEN i
was In, pontiac how the state's attorney had came and investigated,
me was asking all these questions around, me AND i
was never supposed to know that they were even, there
BUT i found, out and it was kind of this
(32:25):
made a little bit more familiar to what the process
was of them keeping me. Incocerated IF i catch another,
case then my appeal is non and. Void it's just
not gonna. Happen so they put me in this predicament
with this. Guy either he was going to kill me
OR i was gonna kill. Him it would have been
a lose lose situation for me to do something or
(32:46):
have something done to. Me, SO i, mean it's a chess.
Game they made their, moves SO i had to make.
Mine my move was to call the guard and tell
THEM i refuse housing SO i can be taken out
of this. Situation you, know because at this, POINT i,
MEAN i got great common.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Sense i'm this close to. Home i'm not going to blow.
Speaker 5 (33:03):
It even for the literally the most extreme situation you
can possibly find.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yourself it wouldn't have did. Anything it wouldn't have brought them. Back,
no IF i had to beat them to a, pope
it wouldn't have brought him. Back so man of the,
matter you, know it's just at a point you just
have to think about the future.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
Now that that's an incredible it's a mind blowing. Story
AND i never shared this.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Story so if people don't even know about, this you
seem to get all getting it all out of me.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Today know what going on around?
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Here none of us could possibly. Understand nobody that hasn't
been doing that.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
Understand but it's a miracle that you were able to
resist an impulse that must have been as powerful as
any that anybody could.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Imagine but it, IS.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I, mean it's it's a. Thing you, Know.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I've always heard the term of feeling your blood. Boil you,
know how you just feel your body go to a
whole nother temperature that would be. It your ethers get
the rise and you get the. Sweating and that's WHY
i was going through BECAUSE i have told myself.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Over and over and over and over and over. Again
IF i ever see, them What i'm going to do to?
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Them?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Right you, know IF i ever because you always, talk
you avenge your family and stand up for your, family
and when you put in these situations in this, circumstance you,
KNOW i always said that to, myself SO i had
to escalate.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Immediately you.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Know it's almost like who could blame? You you're in
year eight or nine of your wrongful.
Speaker 5 (34:28):
Incarceration you've been through everything that they can throw at,
you and now you just lived through the worst thing
that a parent can go through is to lose a
child and then to be put in a tiny cell
with a. Guy but you're, right it wouldn't accomplish. Anything
but it's easy to say from here you didn't. Here
it's easy to. Say so this is SOMETHING i really
want to highlight because in twenty five years of doing,
(34:51):
this the first thing that people ask me almost every
TIME i tell a story like yours is do they get?
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Compensated this? Man did this? Woman tell? Me they get?
Speaker 5 (35:02):
Yeah and you should see like the eyes are bugging,
out like you, know because if you if you're not
familiar with, this and a lot of people, aren't when
you first hear one of these, stories you get so. Shook,
right tell me they get, Paid tell me they get
something when they get. Out and you, KNOW i think
it's shocking to a lot of people to learn that
a lot of exgneries get, nothing, period full, stop end of. Story,
(35:22):
right they just have to go figure it out with
this twenty year gap or whatever it might. Be but
even if you do get, paid because people see the
stories in the, paper sometimes somebody successfully sues for civil
rights violation or whatever it is and gets millions of,
dollars which they, deserve and still DOESN'T i don't know
too many people that would, say, OH.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
I GOT i got a deal for.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
You you're gonna do ten twenty years in the most dangerous,
place one of the most dangerous places on, Earth like
you literally be better off trying to find diamonds in
a river In africa with with crocodiles and, hippos then
you would be In pontiac. PRISON i don't know too
many people that would, say, Ye i'll take that. Deal,
Yeah i'm gonna go do that ten years and give
me the money at the.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
End so that's out the.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Window but the fact is that even the people who
do get compensated have to wait an incredibly long, time
years and years to get their, money and in the
meantime they're stuck in sort of a twilight. Zone, Right
and there's no better example than. YOURS i want to
talk about. THAT i want to hear it in your own.
Words the judge has just, said today's your lucky. Day
(36:26):
do you want to go? Home you And howard are, hugging,
right Mister. Howard and you didn't just walk out the. Door, No,
no there was a.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Process, oh the process is.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Terrible so after The sokar, release it took me almost
eight hours to get out of, that if not more,
so they run you right back through the. Process SO
i had to go back down in this dungeon in
the bottom of the county. Jail in the, bottom it's
the last basement in the county. Jail so it's really
pipes and plumbing and rats and everything just in this, place,
(37:00):
Right and it's a room a little bigger than this,
room and it's a pile of. Clothes so in these
pile of clothes used to close. Guys it's took off
coming in who slept in them maybe a week inside
one of these jails on the street and they make
you pick out some clothes out of this powder in order.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
To walk out of, here and they haven't been.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Washed haven't been.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Washed oh, MAN i picked the biggest PIECE i could
so it wouldn't really be attached to. Me SO i
picked out a jigging, suit a black jigging suit with
a hood because the guard says raining outside real. Bad
SO i picked out it had a hood on. It
the suit LIKE i would extra. Large this suit had
to be a three x of four.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
X it was so. Big the sleeves was hanging and
it stinks so.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
BAD i mean reek of just, urine and you, know
BUT i had no choice IF i wanted to stay
another day in the county, jail another two days in
the county, jail because you get lost in that system so.
Easily SO i, said, No i'm gonna grab. Something SO
i grabbed that in the jigging pants.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
And it held your nose, basically.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yes and just got used to. It you, KNOW i
just lived in.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
Filth and the issue was that because it took hours
and hours for this process to, happen Mister, howard COULDN'T
i like calling it Mister howard a legendary, too So
i'm picking up after. You so he wasn't able to, stay,
right he had another obligation of something he had to.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Go i'm, right so he went home to take care
of his. Wife but then we never know how long
you'll be. There he's not coming out in thirty, minutes twenty,
minutes you, know it's a. Process so, NO i didn't
want to make him, stay so he. Went he went,
home and at this, point nobody knew that this was
going to happen this, day so my family wasn't even,
(38:47):
there SO i just ended up just coming.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Out they FINALLY i put the clothes, on they put me.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Out they kept my forty three dollars and some eye.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Change, well your forty three dollars wasn't even. There it
was in a different, right so you had no ability
to access, that and they send you. Out what the
date of the release Was? May, right it Was may,
ninth But may is not. Exactly it's not warm at
night In may In, chicago so it's cold and, rainy.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Rainy, yeah and it's, Dark, yeah it's.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Dark AND i stood in the rain man for about three,
hours just, wondering trying to figure it. OUT i had
no money to get. HOME i had, nothing absolutely. Nothing
SO i was just standing, there soaking with freaking of
Old i've never experienced in my life until somebody pulled
up on me and, SAID i got one of my.
(39:36):
Buddies you, know he didn't even. Know he, Says so
what you're doing out? HERE i just broke? Out he,
Said so you need a, Ride so you, know guys
quick to help you if you committed a, CROWN i.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
Guess and this isn't just any street. Corner it's twenty
six in Cow so that is the hub of The
chicago criminal court. System it's the busiest court system in the.
World it's not in a great. Neighborhood during the, day everyone's,
saying be, careful be, careful be careful when you go out.
There he has not been in society for over a,
decade and he has walked out onto this dangerous street
(40:10):
corner without a bus, cart without AN, id without a,
phone without frankly much of an, identity and just there you.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Go will people get killed right in front of the.
Building he just had an incident a couple of weeks,
ago a guy got. Killed right with all this police
activity he gets murdered right on the.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Street it's so interesting and it's uplifting because at the
end of the, day randomly in the city the size Of,
chicago your friend happened to be driving, by, like, yo
what are you doing? Here and, LIKE i, mean that's
another little, miracle, Right but.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Well i'm, BLESSED i know.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
That, Yeah, well that's an amazing thing for somebody to
say that's been through ten years inside the most horrific prison,
system nightmare for something he didn't.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Do but it's a great way to look at.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
It and the fact, is it's almost like the energy
feel that Mister howard, created and then this guy was
sort of an extension of, that like your other guardian.
Angels but there's no planet on which we should allow
somebody to emerge from this what sort of an extra
fuck you right, here get out of, here smelling like
(41:13):
you just rolled around in the you, know in the,
gutter and then good luck not.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Even like not even good.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Luck, NO i, Mean i'll get the hell out right
and if you get, killed you because we don't care
about you before and we don't care about you. Now
i'm not saying they necessarily have to have a chariot
waiting for you with white horses or a golden thing or.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Whatever but a.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Bus ticket would have been. FINE a bus, TICKET a.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Phone, call, yeah that would have been.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Fun about a phone, call can somebody come give? Me
they don't give you any of, it they're not. RESPONSIBLE
a phone call would have been. Good phone, call, Great.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
LAURA i want to turn to you because you have
a new book out WHICH i read AND i.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Love it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence thank.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
You.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yeah and in the, book you paired, exoneries Including, antoine
with legendary authors in order to tell their story in
a way that is particularly poignant and also really sort of.
Succinct so can you talk about that process BECAUSE i
love the book AND i hope everybody will check it.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Out anatomy Of, Innocence thank.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
You.
Speaker 6 (42:31):
Yeah it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence and we basically are trying,
to in, fact do what you're. Doing we're trying to
get inside the, mind inside the, soul behind the eyes
of someone who went through a wrongful. Conviction so we've
broken it down into. Stages the knock on the, door you,
know the first time you When antoine heard his, name
(42:53):
was getting batted. Around what do you do when you hear?
Guilty because every xonary thinks they'll here not guilty because
they can tell that the criminal justice system is not
working well because they're in it and they're. Innocent but
they all think they're hill not, guilty all of, them
and they hear. Guilty there's hearing all sorts of testimony
about yourself at, trial which isn't. True there's the walking
(43:16):
into prison for the first, time dealing with the crazies
that are in, there finding someone to get you, out
and then the fact that freedom is just the. Beginning
we wanted to show that sometimes they happen like, This
sometimes they happen like you see ON tv where you
see people outside holding up the, arms and other, Times
And antoine's is not the only Case i've heard of
(43:38):
about being released onto the street with. NOTHING i, mean
it's more frequent than.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Not it's just another bizarre aspect of the whole. Thing
so it is a bizarre.
Speaker 6 (43:46):
Aspect and, frankly so many of these things are so.
Fortuitous and he said he feels. Lucky antoine, SAID i feel,
lucky AND i, think you, Know i've heard people say
that exoneries are the luckiest unlucky.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
People AND i mean it was.
Speaker 6 (43:59):
Strangey even WHEN i Met, ANTOINE i had taken another ex.
Hoonery antoine has been working in re entry since he got,
out AND i took another exonery to get services he
ran Into. Antoine antoine did not know he was an ex.
Hoonery Howard joseph had, died and he also didn't know
That illinois was one of the states that had, compensation
(44:20):
and he had about twenty eight days from the TIME
i met him to file or. Forever it's gone.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
Forever hold your.
Speaker 5 (44:27):
Piece so WHAT i took from the book also each
of those. Stories it's so. Fascinating, Again i'm getting the.
Chills you can't make these stories. Up and when you read,
them and when you read them written so beautifully by
such important literary figures as you have put together In
anatomy Of, NICs it's really it's a great experience reading the.
(44:47):
Book so tell us About life After, innocence because that's
a program you run At, loyola Right.
Speaker 6 (44:52):
Life After innocence is a clinic At Loyola Chicago school Of,
law and we in fact have The Howard Joseph award
that we give every year in Mister howard's honor for
people who help the innocent without basically seeking compensation or.
Recognition so my law students AND i since two thousand
and nine have been representing x houneries to help them start. Over,
(45:14):
previously we did a lot. More when we started in
two thousand and, nine one or two people got out
a year in THE. Us now it's three a. Week
so now we're focusing primarily on criminal records, relief getting
their records, cleared because what most people don't know is
that When antoine walked, out even though his case had been,
overturned when he got pulled over by the, cops it's
still a convicted. Murderer so till someone goes in and
(45:38):
gets your record cleaned, up it's still on your. Record
doesn't matter even IF dna showed who it really, was
still on your. Record so we get that cleaned up
and then we push for, legislation which we've been successful
on so slowly we're adding to the services that ex
houneries get In.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Illinois that's incredible.
Speaker 5 (45:54):
Work AND i also want to just touch on Briefly Joseph,
howard who now has the award made. Death you can't
see it on the, radio AS i always, say But
i've been Watching antoine's body, language and every time this
man's name comes, up he sort of sits up straight
and starts smiling. Uncontrollably and for those of you.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Trying to start from, Crying i'm telling you, something, man
is this Is it always seemed to, Happen but this
guy has really touched my soul in the way that
he operated and what he did for, me BECAUSE i
only pay it forward and because of. Him because of, him,
MAN i, mean it means a. Lot so, YEAH i
(46:34):
carry him very, high you.
Speaker 5 (46:35):
Know AND i want to give a shout out to
all THE i know there's a lot of attorneys that
listen to the show who do incredible amounts of pro
bono work on behalf of people like, yourself and to
all of, THEM i just want to say that you
have all of our respect.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
And appreciation because we couldn't do it without.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
You and if anybody is considering getting into the, WORK
i encourage you to to meet somebody Like antoine and
see what it's meant in a very personal and magical.
Way so we will continue to Honor Joseph howard by
continuing to support the work. Now as is a tradition
on wrong for, conviction we always like to give you
(47:18):
the exgnery the last, word so we'll turn it over to.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
You, Okay, well thank you so.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
MUCH i do appreciate being, here getting an opportunity to
share and to enlighten people of what really goes on
outside of just the, media and to thank people Like
laura and yourself for having this. Platform but most of,
ALL i like to say WHERE i am today is
because of somebody's.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Help the things THAT i do.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Today i'm a court advocate for juvenile youth In chicago
when they go to court.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
To make sure they're not wronged LIKE i.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Was so when they get, ARRESTED i get a phone
call and we appear in. COURT i support them also
with the Family, AGAIN i work in one of the
most harshest communities in the city Of chicago and throughout
the state AT Bbf Family, services Where i'm able to
give back to the community with Mister joe gave to
me Through loyola and working With laura and the things
(48:17):
she did for me helped me. Create, also me And
Jared adams helped me create life after.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Justice even after.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Her, work we continue to do, it so we are
springboard off of what she. Did so what she has
done for me is also paying it for it again
and making things happen when you can help somebody, Else
and that's what we don't do enough of in this,
country in this. World were more worried about other activities
around the world when.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
We really flat on our back right.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Here SO i just really appreciate the opportunity to say
thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
And keep it going and keep calling me BECAUSE i
don't mind.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
COMING i believe in the, work and this is WHAT i,
love you, KNOW i love giving it. Back like you,
said you, Know i'm. Inspired you KNOW i had a great.
Mom i'm inspired by my, sister who you, KNOW i
always say she talked too, much but then that particular
time she talked at the right time in order to
meet Mister joe's, son WHO i think not enough but
(49:13):
as much AS i possibly.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Can i'm very, grateful and LIKE i, Said i'm. Blessed
i'm blessed to be in this in this particular position
Where i'm able to help other. People that's HOW i help.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
MYSELF i need to be an Angel i'm trying to learn,
it you, know, so Mister, Joe i'm trying to learn
how to be that example he would be proud of
me to.
Speaker 5 (49:31):
Be, WELL i THINK i can say that he would,
be And i'm sure he. Is and you are a
great example of everything that's good and right about this.
Cause and people like you are the strongest forces we
have because the stories are just so incredible and so,
(49:51):
powerful and SO i appreciate you being here and sharing.
THAT i KNEW i was going to learn something. That
don't forget to give us a fantastic Review wherever you
get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud
donor to The Innocence, project AND i really hope you'll
(50:13):
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org
to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like
to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wortis
the music in the show is by three TIME oscar
nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On
instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction.
(50:36):
Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flahm is a production Of
lava For good podcasts and association with Signal Company number
one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
Popular Podcasts
Math & Magic: Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing with Bob Pittman
How do the smartest marketers and business entrepreneurs cut through the noise? And how do they manage to do it again and again? It's a combination of math—the strategy and analytics—and magic, the creative spark. Join iHeartMedia Chairman and CEO Bob Pittman as he analyzes the Math and Magic of marketing—sitting down with today's most gifted disruptors and compelling storytellers.
Eye On College Basketball
CBS Sports’ official college basketball podcast is the most entertaining and informative of its kind. Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander bring the sport into your ears at least three times per week with commentary, reporting, insider information and statistical analysis throughout college basketball all year long.
The Questlove Show
The Questlove Show builds on the award-winning Questlove Supreme podcast, bringing listeners into intimate, one-on-one conversations with peers, influences, and friends. Hosted by Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson, each episode uncovers the unexpected — from morning rituals and hidden talents to the art and experiences that shaped a guest’s journey. Sometimes playful, sometimes profound, always curious, QLS offers rare insight into leaders in music, film, television, comedy, literature, mental health, and beyond. It’s a fresh, unpredictable spin from a trusted source — a place where randomness is encouraged, tangents are welcomed, and conversations are anything but ordinary.