February 19, 2026 • 48 mins
On July 5, 2000, Ricardo Aguilera was shot and wounded in a gang related drive-by shooting in Los Angeles, California. Several witnesses identified 25-year-old Rafael Madrigal Jr. in a photo lineup as either the shooter or driver of the car involved. Those witnesses testified against Rafael at trial.
Rafael, who maintained his innocence throughout the ordeal, had been at work at Proactive Packaging, a 50-minute drive away, at the time of the shooting. A co-worker could have confirmed his alibi, and his boss could have testified that he was certain Madrigal was at work because he was the only one who knew how to operate one of the machines in the production line. But Rafael’s defense attorney only called a single co-worker to the stand at the trial, and did not present a recording of Rafael’s co-defendant admitting that Rafael was not involved.
On January 18, 2002, a jury convicted Rafael of attempted murder and he was sentenced to 53 years to life in prison.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
I know I'm innocent.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I know I had nothing to do with this.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
How is this possible?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing
that every human being should do the right thing. And
that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
Coore other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to
get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with
the fact that I break my way out of my
wife's death.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Our system.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Since I've been out ten years, it's coming a little ways,
but it's still broken.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I totally little trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
This is wrongful conviction.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm that's me,
And today I have an extraordinary person as my guest,
a man named Rafael Madrigal.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Raphael, welcome to the show. Good and Raphael.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
You know I often say it, I'm going to say
to you, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're
here because there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you.
And as a member of as an American and as
a human, I apologize to you on behalf of everyone
because this this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Are you know better than anyone and I and.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
I want to get into all those details because your
story has so many things that we see again and
again right. It has mistaken eye witness identification. It has
an incompetent defense attorney. It has an air tight alibi
that anybody in you know, any with any degree of
sanity or education or knowledge of justice with nobody could
(02:23):
have possibly convicted you based on those factors. But we're
going to unravel all of that and find out how
you got charged with first degree murder and how you
got exonerated as we go along.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
But before we do that, let's go back, like at a.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
Time, machine to when you were a kid. Where where
did did you grow up in California?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
What?
Speaker 5 (02:47):
What can you paint a picture for us to the audience?
What what was it like growing up?
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Actually it was a more lifestyle. Yeah, it was in
a rough neighborhood, but I mean my early teen years,
I mean it was just the bigger neighborhood. Everybody was
going on and you know, trying to find themselves. But
later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, things
started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A lot
(03:13):
of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting many,
I started getting a little bit worse and worse and
worse as time went along, you know. But as myself,
I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated
from high school. I got a job right after high school.
College wasn't for me. I tried it for about a year,
and I think, you know what, college is going to
follow me? So you know, I decided, you know what,
(03:34):
I think I read the work and being that I
was already going to be a farther at nineteen. Then
you know, I knew my responsibility and.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
That's and both of those things you just mentioned are
important parts of your story. Right, The fact that you
did become a father very young, and we know what
this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that.
But also the fact that you did start working very
young is an important thing as your story goes. Was
along because of the fact that in your alibi, what
(04:04):
made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna
say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were
a highly skilled person who was the only person that
could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that,
you know, there's no way you could have committed this
crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy
there that knew how to do what you were doing,
(04:26):
and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So
the whole operation was so But let's get into that
by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean,
this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean,
this was a this was a shooting.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Can you can you explain the crime itself?
Speaker 5 (04:42):
Obviously you weren't there, but you're super familiar with there
was a guy named Aguilera, right correct.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended
up seeing him when he came as a fighting court,
But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
It wasn't dry by shooting. It was a game that
was going on at the time cloth one list. You know,
I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know,
nowhere near it, and I was still put in a
situation where I lost ten years of my life.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
Well how did and and you were senced to twenty
five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think
of how that must have you know, just devastated you.
But how did your name come up in the first
place when you so obviously weren't there and you could
prove it. And who was it that first? I know
(05:32):
there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they
even come to bring your name up?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Did you ever find out how that happened?
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Or it all started off with the picture that this
Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took
me when I was I had just turned sixteen years
old at the time of the crime. I was twenty
five already, So they used that picture to show the
witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one
of the witnesses maid that I resembled the shooter.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait,
let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael,
you were sixteen when your picture was taken.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Great?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Is it even appropriate for that picture to still even
be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed
after you turn eighteen?
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works,
or is any law that prohibits them from using the
almost a ten year old picture?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And what was the original? Sorry?
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Interrupted, but why was your picture in the book in
the first place? What we what were you picked up
for when? And I don't judge anything because I know
where you grew up, as a lot of people get
picked up for a lot of things, they do the
sweeps and everything else. And you know, we've had people
talk about how they were almost tricked into having their
pictures taken and put into the mug Shot book when
they were just barely teenagers. And it's also sort of
(06:48):
ridiculous to point out that you were they were using
a nine year old can imagine how much your appearance
changes from sixteen to twenty five. But yeah, so why
was your picture in the book in the first place?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
A picture that I said it was taken when I
was sixteen, when they were in front of my house
and gang unit ended up swooping by and everybody that
was there inside my house. They pulled us home out
and they took pictures of us and they went on
their way. Never did I imagine in my life that
that picture would come in hunt me almost ten years later.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around
in front of your own house and they took a
picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside
down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get
into that too. The fact is that we know that
there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including the
(07:40):
fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in most cases,
they were using six pictures on that page in the
Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research have now
proven scientifically that the human mind, if you give it
that many options, will go towards somebody that sort of
resembles a little bit. They'll start you'll start to make
up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't real because
(08:04):
you see all these different pictures. So by making the
simple change of putting one picture per page, we know
that the incidents of wrongful identifications go down by around
fifty percent. So that's the change that we're trying to
get made all over the country and in any case.
So so I mean, this is this is an unbelievable thing.
(08:24):
So you're now far away, have no idea what's going
on somewhere in a police station in these Los Angeles,
these witnesses, one of them randomly pickts your photo and
then what happens.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started
from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took
please and from there after the incidet I believe, they
showed the pictures, the pictures to the nick to the witnesses,
tell me about that to the witnesses, and fifteen days
later after the incident, that's when I got picked up.
(08:58):
I got picked up on anchel of twentieth.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
July the twenties.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
So paint this picture for us place, So you're July
the twenties, where were you.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
July twenty, I had just dropped off my wife at work.
I was because she went a little bit earlier than
I did. I dropped lass at work, I was heading
back home to get ready myself. And when I was
driving into I used to live in a Culdsfec at
the time. When I was driving in, I noticed that
there was a bunch of a shelf deputy patrol cars
on the side of the street and they were all
putting under gear. And uh, I see them. I said, Oh,
(09:26):
they're going to give somebody a rude awakening right now.
Little did I know they were going to my house.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And you.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
I read an article about you in San Francisco magazine
where you were talking about how you were literally, I'm
going to quote you. You said, I was literally living in
the American dream and then I got everything pulled out
from under my feet.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
You had two kids at this point, your.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, so
life was looking pretty pretty damn good.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just
thirty had been a year ago. We had bought on
in a house, so I mean, I mean, therefore we
were striving for it. The fire own house and retired
paint where so I mean we put we put our
nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for
we eased to move. But little did we know that,
I mean, this nightmare was going to start at night
(10:15):
of twenty year.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
So you had two boys six and three and a
little girl on the way and then you get picked
up taken in for questioning. I assume right, and explain it,
explain that process.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Well. The funny point is when I when I see
that take the sales patrol course in the coulda sat.
I came to the stop sign and they had a
picture of me, a blown up picture that they were
going to my house with. So when I got to
the stop sign, one of the deputies that had the picture,
it happened to me he had the pie was looking
at the picture at the time when I turned around
(10:48):
and I looked at and relactizing to each other, and
he drew his weapon on me and he yelled at
him trying to get off my map. So yeah, sure enough,
they got me off the van, and they said the
first one who tell me all, they need to talk
to you down the station. So I tell them all
of this here because they need to talk to me,
and he said, you know what, they'll explain to you
a little bit more. Well, from there, they took me
(11:08):
to the station. They put me in a vat outside
of the station and they left me there for it.
I say, m good, four hours So what reason? I'm
not sure, but I was here that for four hours.
Follows lady put me inside the whole treat and I
ask again, who needs to talk to me? What do
we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh,
you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you.
(11:30):
That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh.
Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next
to me when the detective involved in my case can't
talk to them, and I asked them, Hey, who's going
to talk to me? And he says, you know what,
wait to turn, I'll talk to you in that time.
So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're I'm
gonna talk to me now. Let me know, I'm going
(11:51):
to bail out because I got to go to work.
And his words to me where, you know what, I'm
gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're
gonna need it.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Who said that to you one? The need to take
you in my case, now you're there.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole
idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not
knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No,
I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in
and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come
and talk to you and they tell you you're being
charged with first degree murdered.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me.
It wasn't into my arrangement because I got to rest
them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning.
The following week. When I went into my arrangement that
seem to take they came to talk to me and
he asked me but my co defendant, and he asked me,
when was the last thing you seen him?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right?
Speaker 5 (12:35):
And this is an important point because the co defendant
ultimately testifies that you were not involved.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was
that there was a tape recording from the county jail.
Because me and me and my co defendant, I was
first enough to tell me who did this? I know
I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was
with you, and he just got like very upset because
I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what,
I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do
(13:01):
with this. So me and him got into a real
big argument and we ended up video to a fight.
Two days later, his girlfriend came and visited him in
the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him,
he had a black guy and his girlfriend started question
and what's going on with you? What's going on with you?
And said jail. So he told us, you know what,
I'm gonna tell you the children that's going on. You
(13:22):
know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's
asking around who was involved. And I told him to
stand up his business and he needs to keep this
his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else
asking about this clime.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And that was that was that was said.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
That yes, that was O. And originally when the tape
recording came to life, they had told my my my
attorney that it was me in the in the tamp
recording confess to the crime. So, uh, right before a
travel he said, we got a tape recording was this
confession to the crime. We didn't use it. So when
(13:59):
my attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look
at Andrew's names. That understand. I said, look at from
the day that I hired. I told you I had
nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change
up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that
I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay,
you know what, We're going to ask for an extension
and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll
come back in a month. So a month later, we
(14:19):
come back and I asked him what happened to recordings?
We doesn't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing
in that can help you, and there's nothing in there
that can hurt you.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
None of that makes any sense. So first of all,
let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you
and were you locked up this whole time?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally,
when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at
thirty thousand. When I went to my arrangement, they raised
my bill from thirty kundred dollars to two million.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Dollars two million, So they didn't want you going anywhere
and correct. And this attorney who we know, made a
series of mistakes that are literally out This is the
only word I can think of to explain.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
The nature the.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
So many of them and so egregious that any law
student would have been able to handle this case better
than he did. Obviously, this was a quarter pointed attorney.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
I'm assuming No, actually he was a private attorney.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was
he Do you have any theory as to what was
wrong with him in terms of was why why was
he so ill suited for this job?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Like?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
What was there something going on in his personal life?
Was there some did you ever find out?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
No? Actually, you know what when when my family first
hired him, I mean he talked a real good story
to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to
get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And
I mean he just said everything that you'll be said.
But as time was going by and postponement of post
it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know,
(16:01):
like he just literally gave it up on the kiss.
Because of the almost three years that I spent in
the county jail fighting this case. One time he came
within me. That was when when my family hired him.
After that, never again did he come and see me,
ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only
see him and would go to court.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
He came to see you one time in three years.
In three years, Oh my god. You know, this is
so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too. You know.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Hinton called The Sun Does Shine.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row by
Anthony ray Hinton with Lara lov Harden, and in it
he talks about Brian Stevenson, the legendary attorney who would
visit him on death row over fifteen years, like incredible
in a remote prison in Alabama, and here it is
like one time in three years. I like, I'm you know,
I'm so angry at this whole thing. It's like I
(16:57):
can't process how that could even be. And then in
the meantime he also made like mistakes that are unimaginable
in terms of the idea that you had a tape recording.
I'm just reflecting on this, right you had a tape
recording with the actual perpetrator saying that you his co defendant,
wasn't there and and he he couldn't even work with that,
(17:23):
Like he couldn't even and he's telling you that the
tape recording doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it
up at court, among other things, right, because I'm not
stopping there. I mean the idea that during the trial
he was unable to he did well, he wasn't unable.
He didn't call your coworker who would have testified and said.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That it was impossible for you to have.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Committed this crime since, as I said earlier in the podcast,
the whole you were the only guy there that could
operate the machinery, and we know that the machinery was operating,
and we know that you were You were there, you
were clocked in, you were I mean, it's just mine
by how you know how this could have transpired the
(18:05):
way it did and you lived it. So so I
want to get to this so it finally comes to
the trial. It took three years to get to trial.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, about two and a half years, which.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Is crazy in itself.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
And meanwhile, your kids are growing up without their father,
your wife is in the situation of trying to figure
out how to make ends meet, which I know that
ultimately she had to move out of the house that
your dream house, because I mean, who can raise three
kids and work a job, and I mean it's you know,
and in the meantime she's left with the task of
(18:51):
trying to explain to the kids. I'm sure they're asking,
when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean, it's just it's
so I mean, it's so much. It's just so much.
So you finally come to trial, and by the time
you got to trial, now, I mean you've got to
be almost a basket case by this point.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber explain it.
And just the worst part about it was that the
doubt was there from the beginning year for the prosecution.
Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys. It
wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take you
to trial. The first three came in. I mean the
(19:31):
first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top gang
prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He came
and he told my attorney at the time, you know what,
I have an offer for him. My offer for him
is twenty five with life. That's the only thing that
will offer him, you know. A year later he leaves
the case. They bring another prosecutor in from another city
(19:54):
and he comes in the same way. You know what.
There's no deals, there's no deals. Finally, when he's up,
maybe about ten months into the case, he says, you
know what, I might have a deal for you. We'll
see how that turns out. The following month he was
off the case. They bought another gentleman from the city
of Compton. He was on the case for a month.
He let the case go. They finally brought in This
(20:16):
is Ramibors Marie Remiors, which is the one that finally
took me to trial, and she's the one that finally
convicted me, you know.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
And my team was, yeah, Raf, where you tried, If
it's okay if I call you Ralf. Were you tried
together with all of ours or separately?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
No? Together?
Speaker 5 (20:36):
But he didn't take the stand, and you had the
tape recording. But the lawyer didn't bother to tell anybody
about this tape recording where he was admitting that you
weren't there.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Exactly. It's like the stay recording. The prosecution is the
one that brought them to light. But at the end,
nobody used them. And when we when we got our
appeal granted, and we came to the federal courthouse and
he asked mister Stein about the tape recording. All he
responded was, you know what, I think my secretary listened
(21:06):
to them.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
Wow, my secretary listened to them. Doesn't that say at all?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Right?
Speaker 5 (21:12):
That that is what's so nuts to me is that
there that there are people in this less justice system
I call it sometimes in justice system that are so
cavalier about someone's life, because in your case, it really
was your life. I mean, twenty five to life is
a life sentence. Let's face it. I mean there's when
twenty five to life sentence as a twenty five year
(21:34):
old man, you're basically looking at spending the rest of
your life behind bars. And this guy had his secretary
listen to the recording. Okay, that's I'm just gonna think
about this for a second. So when you went to trial,
by now, you I mean, I'm assuming you had lost
faith in your attorney, had did you consider it firing him,
(21:56):
hiring somebody else?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Well, I really did a system of what you could
and can do. It was my first time in being
in a position like this. Keep in mind, I have
never been arrested soon, I have never been turned before.
So I was lost. You know, my only guidance was
my attorney.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Right, and you and you want to have you want
to have faith in him at this point, I'm assuming
because you need to have faith in somebody or something,
and he's your advocate, he's your champion.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
But when you went to trial, did you feel like,
how can I say this?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated?
I mean, at this point the system had already you know,
shown you it's its worst sides. So but but still
you knew you were innocent. So what was your like
going in to the court room finally after all these
years or two and a half years, three years? Did
you feel like you were going to be exonerated? Or
(22:55):
you were you like, oh, you know they've got me
and that's going to be it.
Speaker 7 (22:59):
No, know, I I like, honestly, I never did my
faith in the truth.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
I was always under the impression, you know, one sec
of the trial, I'm going to.
Speaker 7 (23:08):
Be able to pull my innocent I'm going to prove it.
And the trial masted two days deliberations, ris and lot
of it in the childhood deliberation was on four days.
And they kept on and they kept on coming back.
The jury kept on coming back to pursuing my alibi.
So the doubt was there from the beginning. There wasn't
the doubt just to the jury.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
It was.
Speaker 7 (23:27):
It was there for the beginning, even with the prosecution.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
But here's another thing.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
As I was reading and rereading your story, I was thinking,
you're sitting there next to your lawyer. He's not calling
your alibi witness. Uh, from the I don't know what
the guy's name was. From the factory or was it
a factory, or or what was the place that you
were working at?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
What was it called?
Speaker 4 (23:51):
It was it was a manufacturing company.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
And what was the name of the guy who never
was called that should have been called, that could have act. Actually,
you know, absolutely without any doubt, established your your alibi
as being factual.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
That was my manager of Bob Howard's.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Was he in the courtroom, No, he was never in
the courtroom.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Actually he got to the court room and to my understanding,
by attorney told him that he was not going to
be called to testified, but he did show up.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
Did you at any point say to your attorney, where
is Bob Howard? Why isn't he here? Why aren't you
calling him to the stand?
Speaker 4 (24:30):
No, I mean I was.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
My head was just just so lost when I kept
on just hearing how the prosecution kept on just making
me look like this animal, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
And even when the victim himself got up in the standing,
they asked him, do you see the person who shot
who shot you here today in this court room. The
gentleman said, the person who shot me, he's not here.
He wasn't lying, He was never lying. He was saying
the truth. But what would make that bad was that
right after he got understand, was that they put to
(25:06):
take to the move, understand, and they asked him to
take to the move. Why do you feel a missie
Aguilla is saying that the person who shot him is
not here? So his comments were, oh, well, he feels
he doesn't want to be label to snitch, he doesn't
want to be labeled to rap, he doesn't want any repercussions.
But it was never that the gentleman was saying the
(25:26):
truth the person that shot him was not important.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
I'm again trying to figure. I'm trying to put myself
inside the mind of the jury, because even with such
even with such a I mean, inadequate is not a
strong enough word, but even with such an incompetent, disinterested,
even still with that alone, you would think that the
jury would go well, okay, I guess that's it, you know.
(25:52):
And obviously they thought long and hard before they finally
decided what they decided and and sentenced you to to
this this terrible uh, this terrible term in prison. So
that moment must have been the worst moment of your life.
I mean, I can't imagine anything worse. When the jury
(26:13):
came back in, did they look at you? Was your
family in the courtroom? Can you was it hot?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Was it cold? Do you remember? Can you paint the
picture for us of what that was like?
Speaker 4 (26:25):
And I remember it clearly, like it was yesterday. It
was almost days in for the jury, and I was
under the impression it was I believe a flighting. They
were gonna just bring us back on Monday. The bailiff
called called us in from the from the holding tank decision,
and when I think they came back with the verdict,
three o'clock to me thirty in the afternoon, and I
remember my pums were sweating so bad, and I don't
(26:49):
know if it was hot and narrow it was cold.
I was. I was nervous, you know, And the jury
came back and just hearing those words, you know, when
we find the defending guilty, it's like if I had
the world on my shoulders at the time, the world
just came crashing down on me.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
And you can't help thinking, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ralph.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I mean it was just then turning along fee my
family and just everybody breaking down trying because they knew
the truth. I mean, nobody better than my family knew
the truth. And them hearing the word's guilty as like
they just took the air out of their ownness.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
And I can't help thinking that the fact that it
was the weekend coming up and the jury didn't want
to have to come back or be I don't know
if they were sequestered, but that probably played a role
inside that room of them saying you know what, maybe
there was one or two holdouts and they finally said,
you know what, this weekend and Monday, I gotta go
to work whatever.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And so for anybody who's listening.
Speaker 5 (27:52):
I always say, please, if you get called for jury duty,
first of all, show up. I know it's annoying, it's difficult,
it's in a position on all of our life.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Show up, serve on a jury.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
Pay attention, and remember that somebody like Raphael is hanging
in the balance. His whole life is hanging in the balance.
When you're sitting there, and you know, it's all of
our duty to our fellow citizens, so orofellow human beings
that we give it, you know, all the attention that
it deserves, and that we remember that these mistakes happen
as often as they do, and you're living proof of it.
So you're now convicted a sense to twenty five years
(28:28):
to life. The worst thing that could possibly happen, you
go to prison. I guess I want to get to
the I want to get to the good part, right,
the exoneration and what's happening now. But if you can
tell us during those see you had been waiting almost
three years for the trial, and you were in for
another almost seven in a maximum security prison. And was
(28:53):
that as bad as everyone is imagining it to be?
Was there anything? Was there any bright spot in that
whole time you were there. What was the best and
the worst aspect of that entire miserable time of seven years.
And then again this is in adding because you were
in almost ten but the seven years inside prison after
you had been tried and convicted, you.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Know, I could honestly say the best point of those
of those ten years was coming across Eric Moltop, which
was the attorney who originally contacted the California interspodseet. Mister
Moltop was referred to me by my state appointed appeal attorney,
(29:37):
Laura Seaffer. And when Laura Seaffer got my case originally
after I got sentenced, you know, she was very honest
with me. She told me the way it was, the
system works. She says, Looking, you got to understand, we're
state appointed appeal attorneys. They don't pay us to do
extra labors. They just pay us to do push PayPal
fore days. You know. But after going through your case,
(30:00):
you're not supposed to be here. And I told him,
you know what, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.
And she went as far as telling them, but you
know what, you're gonna have to get a private attorney
to be able to help you out. And she referred
me to the gentleman Eric moltip out of No Valley, California.
And this gentleman from the beginning when he got a
hold of my case, he contacted me and within a
(30:21):
month a month and a half, I want to say,
he wrote me a letter and he explained to me,
He goes, look, I read your case already. I don't
know what you're doing in prison. You know, we need
to get you home. And from there he got the
bone rolling. He started investigating. And the first thing that
I call him when he came to visit me, I
told him, Eric, the only thing I need you to
do is because I have never listened to the tape recordings.
(30:46):
I asked him, please listen to the tape recording to
send being there. It always stood in the back of
my mind, there has to be since there. And he goes, okay,
you know where I'm gonna listen to him.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I kid you not.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Maybe within a month he went back to the prisoners
in the game and he asked me, is that you
and the tape recordings. I said, look, Errett, I haven't
listened to them. I don't know what's in them. So
he brought a copy of tape recordings and he played it,
and as soon as the first work came out of
the tape recording, I told him that's Francisco. I recognized
his voice immediately. He says, are you sure? I said,
(31:18):
look at them, one hundred percent sure, that's Francisco and
Waters on the tape recordings. And that's what just got
the ball rolling. We're able to admit the tape recordings
back in todment because originally the prosecutions prosecution is the
one that you have brought them out to light, but
they were never used. So it goes you know what,
I got to get this back in there. And sure enough,
(31:39):
that was one of the key things that the magistrate
in the Federal appeals court asked, why were these tape
recorders never used in his defense?
Speaker 5 (31:49):
It's a damn good question. And it was newly discovered
evidence at that point as well, which is great.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
So okay, so let's fast forward.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Now what must have been maybe other than the to
your kids or I don't know, but it must have
been the happiest.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Day of your life, which is the day that you were.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Back in court. How did you get end up getting exonerated?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Released?
Speaker 5 (32:07):
And must have been like this million pound weight has
lifted off your shoulders now, So can you explain that right?
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Well, the flip side is that we first had a
file of motion FORVID injury hearing and we got that
advent hearing granted. So I was brought from prison back
down to Orange County where the evidence your hearing was
going to take place. So during that evident you're hearing,
we were able to call my attorney who represented me,
(32:34):
we put him on a stand, and we were able
to bring mister Bob Howards and put him on the stand, so,
I mean all the pieces that were missing at the trial.
We put him in front of the fell of the
courthouse and that's what was able to bring the light.
So once we got mister Stein under Stein on the
stand and he was able to just literally deny everything
(32:56):
that he did and also put mister how I was
understanding him, admit you know what he was at work.
I'm one hundred percent positlyn to use at work. There's
no way he could have been gone. You know. That's
what took turn bottom. This was in October. In June
of two thousand and nine, my appeal was granted.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
I mean, how did you feel. What were you freed
from the courtroom. Explain the whole thing, because this is
my favorite part of the show, right, the good part.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Right. Well, the next day, all that day, I just
slep all night. Literally I slipped not one hour of shady.
The next morning, I'm thinking, Okay, they're going to come
me early in the morning. Then they're gonna walk me
out seven o'clock, eight o'clock. Let there, finally winning the
Tipitis came the to my cell and said, you know,
(33:48):
we'll get your stuff ready. I got to take you
down to our which is receiving a release. And he
told me, oh, your Turney is supposed to be here
to pick you up at eleven o'clock. But if he's
not here, we have to that you go those that's
the court order. So eleven o'clock came and they walked
me to the gate and mister Eric Moltop was there
waiting for me. You know, it was it was an
(34:11):
unexplainable relief happiness. I don't know if there was just
a bunch of emotions going through me.
Speaker 7 (34:18):
You know, my dad just passed away eight months.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Earlier, so it was it was just a bunch of
things going through my mind. You know, how was I
going to get back into society? What was I going
to do? You know, it's just a minute things going
through your mind. I get home, man, there's a bunch
of camera that was waiting for me, my family. I
mean literally, it was the best day of my life.
The only bad plub about it in there My dad
(34:43):
wasn't there waiting for me.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
I want to talk about something else that's really important
in your case. And I know we don't have a
lot of timele left, but you were ultimately fully exonerated, conviction,
reverse charges dropped, declared.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Actually innocent. Is that right?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
That's correct?
Speaker 5 (35:07):
And so it's amazing Ralph, because I've been doing this
work for twenty five twenty six years now, and I
talk about it all the time, no matter where I am,
I'm always talking about it. And I tell these stories
about your case, about all these different cases that I know,
because it drives me crazy. And the first question everybody
asks me is did he get Did the person the
(35:29):
man or woman the exgonery? Did they get compensated? So
the first thing everybody wants to know. Their eyes get
real wide, they say did the guy get? I hope
they get and I have to tell them, well, it's
not what you think. And you're living proof of that,
right because you have gone through almost like another trial.
It really it is another trial, just trying to get
(35:50):
what's due for you. And in California the compensation statute,
and I'm working on getting it fixed. But it's so crazy.
Can you explain that a little bit? Because most people
think you get out, they send you a check. Hey man, sorry,
we've messed up your life, like, uh, you know, let
me give you a little way.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
To get started here, you know, But that's not the
way it is.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
It's actually the total opposite. I mean California. And it's
sadly saying that California, up until recently, their whole exonerate
exoneration passive was never there. I mean, the gates open
for you, and you know, there's no apology, there's no,
like you said, a check waiting for you. There's nothing
(36:31):
waiting for you. It's their opening and they just kick
you out into the world. You know, I've been out.
As a matter of fact, it's been nine years. On Saturday,
October of six, it's been my nine year anniversary that
I've been home.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Happy birthday, Happy University.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Up until now, I haven't seen any type of help
from the State of California. I've been to hearings after hearing,
and every time we go with it's like on the
trail because you have these people on the board who
are more into denying you, not the compensation, but the truth,
(37:10):
denying you. They keep on denying the truth, you know,
for what reason, I don't know. I don't know what
holds them back from saying, you know what, a mistake
was made here, we have to fix it. But up
until this date, nobody, nobody in the state of California
has said, you know what we done, these people wrong,
we have to fix it. And I'm not the only one.
(37:32):
There's several individual Exanna Revees that are here in California
where I haven't been compensated. They're in the same situation
that I'm in. They've been fighting for their compensation for six, seven, eight,
nineteen years.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
No I know, and I've read some of those stories
and it's really horrible, including some that have ended up
going back to prison just because they haven't been able
to support themselves because they're facing the same thing that
you're facing, which is that coming out and having to
tell their prospective employer that they have a conviction even
though it was overturned, and then they're either not getting
(38:04):
hired or getting fired from the jobs that they know
that they should have. I think as a society, we
have to open our hearts and minds, and we have
to open our companies. I talked to CEOs and other
people in positions of power that run.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Big companies about this all the time.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
I think there's a lot more openness to this now,
to this concept that we need to give people a
second chance, innocent or guilty, but particularly if you're innocent,
to get back on their feet.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And yet people like.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
Kenneth Foley is a classic example, right, who was convicted
of armed robbery ninety five cents to twenty five years
to life and exonerated in two thousand and seven, and
then denied compensation and couldn't get a job and ultimately
had PTSD and all these other things that ended up
with a fifteen year cents for a vehicular manslaughter because
he was high on drugs or whatever it was. I mean,
it's a tragedy on top of a tragedy. So it's
(38:59):
amazing to staydy is willing to pay all this money
to keep you locked up, but they're not willing to
pay anything to help you when you get out.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
It's so strange. What do you and and Rob?
Speaker 5 (39:10):
It's like to me, it seems like the people sitting
on that board their job should be to figure out
how to get you this money and how to help
you manage it once you do get it. That would
be the job of that board. If I was running it,
I would say, Okay, let's make sure that not only
are you going to get it, but you're going to
know how to invest it. We're going to show you
how to you know, I mean because a lot of
people in your situation coming out and what you were
(39:31):
actually successful businessman already, but many people are not and
this is their first experience having a lump sum of money.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So how would you fix this? Because it's crazy.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
You're literally having to prove your innocence again after a
judge and a jury and a prosecutor everybody else has
decided you're innocent. How would you fix the system? What
do you think it should be?
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Well, I think the first thing off the top, it
makes no sense to me for you to put a
prosecutor on the compensation board. I mean, to me, that's
the number one biggest mistake they could do. You know,
a prosecutor to me, will always be a prosecutor no
matter how you look at it. You know, he's never
(40:15):
going to go against other prosecutors who probably convicted you
and they know for a fact you were innocent. There
is a situation that happened in my in my, in
my situation. You know, mister Mike Cromwolls, who was no
longer on the board, but I mean this here, Never
(40:37):
once did he even take the time to say, you
know what, I have an innocent individual here and suddenly,
what am I going to do fix this problem? Instead,
he was up on that seat being a prosecutor. He
questioned me so much in regards to what took place
twenty years ago, instead of focusing on, you know, we
(41:00):
have an individual years That was the case with him.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
It's important to recognize that there are thirty one states
that have compensation statues in nineteen that have none, and
even then in some of those states it's only you
have to have a DNA proof or you have to
have this or that. It's not a streamline system like
it should be. I think to me, once you're proven
innocent and you're out, there should be there's like in Texas,
there should be a very ironically, Texas has the best system.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
You get eighty thousand per year.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
For every year you in you get an annuity, and
sort of ironic that Texas, which most people would think
would have one of the worst systems, actually has one
of the best.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I know why that is.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
It's thanks to Rodney Ellis, who was a state senator
who passed a bill that really changed it, turned it
upside down. And we need to do the same thing
in California. And there are a lot of you should know,
there are a lot of good people working on it,
and I'm going to be helping to lead this charge
to fix it for you and for everyone else like you,
because it's absolutely it's disgusting in my opinion that you
(42:04):
are now having to fight. And by the way, not
only is it as you said, it's the opposite of
what it should be because on top of everything else,
you have to make time in your life, which you
have enough obligations with three kids, work, struggling everything else,
to go and appear in all these different hearings and
everything else. It's ridiculous. There should just be a check
(42:27):
in the mailbox for you with your name on it
that says, hey, good luck, sorry this happened to you,
you know, looking forward to seeing you succeed moving forward.
Hope this helps something like that, You know what I mean.
But man, it's really I think it's so important that
you're here and talking about this because that problem has
to get fixed, and it has to get fixed at
(42:48):
the highest levels, right And I think I'm going to
be I'm going to be keeping in touch with you,
if it's all right, because I'm going to call on
you maybe to have some meetings with some you know,
people in positions of power who can who can make
these changes, because I believe if if the people that
make these decisions are made aware, which is why it's
so important that you're here, they're going to want to
(43:09):
fix this because it's it's just it just doesn't make
any sense. But I just think people aren't really focused
on it. So the more attention we can bring, the
better it's going to be, obviously for you and everybody else.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
So before before.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
We have to wrap up, I wanted to ask you
one more question. There was actually two more questions. One question,
how how is your How are your kids doing?
Speaker 4 (43:30):
My kids are doing great, thank god. You know. My
oldest Andrew, he's twenty four. He has about one more year,
about a year and a half left a Long Beach
State to complete the major. My second oldest, he just
gotta to accept this letter to Long be State and
one to Keelsetate Folish and also so I mean, family wise,
(43:54):
I cannot complete one bit. You know. I thank god
that I came out, that my wife done such a
great job with them in those ten years. She you know,
guided them in the right direction. And now these kids
are open and they're they're leading a good life.
Speaker 5 (44:11):
It's amazing. That's really an amazing testament to them. And
like you said to your wife, because to grow up
in that situation without their dad and and to be
able to, you know, take that adversity and turn it
into they can call it triumph because it sounds like
they're they're they're knocking it out of the park. I mean,
they're they're doing amazing and that's and it's also it's
(44:34):
also a tribute to you. I mean, you obviously have
had a tremendously positive influence on them. So you know
I wish, I wish you and them all the best
and everything that you deserve before we go, and I
know you have to run, but I always like to
end the show the same way, which is that I
like to This is I think everyone's favorite part of
the show. When I stopped talking, and I just first
(44:57):
of all want to thank you again for being here
taking time. I'm out of your schedule to share your
story with the audience here on Wronfel Conviction. And now
I'm going to turn it over to you just for
any last thoughts that you want to share about anything.
So the microphone is yours, and thank you again for
being here.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
Thank you well. I just want to take the time
more than anything to thank my family and my wife,
my kids, my mom, my dad who was no longer
with me, but I mean all my thanks goes to
him because he was one of the ones always in
the front right with me fighting for this. I also
want to think Justin and all of the California Indusry Project,
(45:37):
Eric Moltop.
Speaker 7 (45:38):
Eric Moltop was the.
Speaker 4 (45:39):
Key piece to exonerating me, to getting me home, you know,
and lesson, but at least you know, to those prosecutors
and to take us out there. You know, if you're
hearing me, you know, take the time to investigate your cases.
Don't just look for a conviction. It's not right putting
people in prison as in that command. You're not only
(46:02):
destroying their life, but you're destroying many lives behind their
their kids, their families, I mean, their parents. It just
takes a toll on society itself. You know, I was
one of the lucky ones who it only took ten
years to his alrea. But there are gentlemen out there
who were concentrated for twenty thirty years. Thirty years later,
(46:22):
there's not a life out of here for you. You know,
everything has changed.
Speaker 5 (46:30):
I think that's that's a great way to wrap up.
I'm glad you brought up the California Innocence Project. I've
had Justin on the podcast a couple of times, I think,
and he is a huge source of inspiration for me
and everybody in the movement. Of course, right now he's
marching to Sacramento to deliver to deliver petitions for clemency
(46:54):
on behalf of the California twelve. And he really is
just a great, great man, And I want to encourage
everyone to go to California Innocenceproject dot org. That's California
Innocence Project dot org. Get involved, volunteer, donate, hold a fundraiser,
do a bake sale, whatever your thing is. There's too
(47:15):
many people in the same situation that Raphael was in
and we need to go get them out. And uh
and I will say to you now again, Raphael, and
I'll never stop fighting. There's a there's a ton of
good people who care about you and everyone else like
you out there, so I know you got to get
to work, so I'm not gonna hold you up anymore.
(47:37):
But thanks again. I'm looking forward to meeting you in
California the next time. And uh and and all my
best to you and your family. Likewise, don't forget to
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
It really helps.
Speaker 5 (47:56):
And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
I really hope you'll join me and supporting this very
important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and
get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
Hall and Kevin Wartis the music in the show is
by three time OSCAR nominated.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 5 (48:17):
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
and association with Signal Company Number one
I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
I know I'm innocent.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I know I had nothing to do with this.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
How is this possible?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing
that every human being should do the right thing. And
that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
Coore other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to
get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with
the fact that I break my way out of my
wife's death.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Our system.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Since I've been out ten years, it's coming a little ways,
but it's still broken.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I totally little trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
This is wrongful conviction.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm that's me,
And today I have an extraordinary person as my guest,
a man named Rafael Madrigal.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Raphael, welcome to the show. Good and Raphael.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
You know I often say it, I'm going to say
to you, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're
here because there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you.
And as a member of as an American and as
a human, I apologize to you on behalf of everyone
because this this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Are you know better than anyone and I and.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
I want to get into all those details because your
story has so many things that we see again and
again right. It has mistaken eye witness identification. It has
an incompetent defense attorney. It has an air tight alibi
that anybody in you know, any with any degree of
sanity or education or knowledge of justice with nobody could
(02:23):
have possibly convicted you based on those factors. But we're
going to unravel all of that and find out how
you got charged with first degree murder and how you
got exonerated as we go along.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
But before we do that, let's go back, like at a.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
Time, machine to when you were a kid. Where where
did did you grow up in California?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
What?
Speaker 5 (02:47):
What can you paint a picture for us to the audience?
What what was it like growing up?
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Actually it was a more lifestyle. Yeah, it was in
a rough neighborhood, but I mean my early teen years,
I mean it was just the bigger neighborhood. Everybody was
going on and you know, trying to find themselves. But
later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, things
started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A lot
(03:13):
of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting many,
I started getting a little bit worse and worse and
worse as time went along, you know. But as myself,
I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated
from high school. I got a job right after high school.
College wasn't for me. I tried it for about a year,
and I think, you know what, college is going to
follow me? So you know, I decided, you know what,
(03:34):
I think I read the work and being that I
was already going to be a farther at nineteen. Then
you know, I knew my responsibility and.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
That's and both of those things you just mentioned are
important parts of your story. Right, The fact that you
did become a father very young, and we know what
this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that.
But also the fact that you did start working very
young is an important thing as your story goes. Was
along because of the fact that in your alibi, what
(04:04):
made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna
say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were
a highly skilled person who was the only person that
could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that,
you know, there's no way you could have committed this
crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy
there that knew how to do what you were doing,
(04:26):
and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So
the whole operation was so But let's get into that
by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean,
this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean,
this was a this was a shooting.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Can you can you explain the crime itself?
Speaker 5 (04:42):
Obviously you weren't there, but you're super familiar with there
was a guy named Aguilera, right correct.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended
up seeing him when he came as a fighting court,
But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
It wasn't dry by shooting. It was a game that
was going on at the time cloth one list. You know,
I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know,
nowhere near it, and I was still put in a
situation where I lost ten years of my life.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
Well how did and and you were senced to twenty
five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think
of how that must have you know, just devastated you.
But how did your name come up in the first
place when you so obviously weren't there and you could
prove it. And who was it that first? I know
(05:32):
there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they
even come to bring your name up?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Did you ever find out how that happened?
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Or it all started off with the picture that this
Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took
me when I was I had just turned sixteen years
old at the time of the crime. I was twenty
five already, So they used that picture to show the
witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one
of the witnesses maid that I resembled the shooter.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait,
let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael,
you were sixteen when your picture was taken.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Great?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Is it even appropriate for that picture to still even
be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed
after you turn eighteen?
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works,
or is any law that prohibits them from using the
almost a ten year old picture?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And what was the original? Sorry?
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Interrupted, but why was your picture in the book in
the first place? What we what were you picked up
for when? And I don't judge anything because I know
where you grew up, as a lot of people get
picked up for a lot of things, they do the
sweeps and everything else. And you know, we've had people
talk about how they were almost tricked into having their
pictures taken and put into the mug Shot book when
they were just barely teenagers. And it's also sort of
(06:48):
ridiculous to point out that you were they were using
a nine year old can imagine how much your appearance
changes from sixteen to twenty five. But yeah, so why
was your picture in the book in the first place?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
A picture that I said it was taken when I
was sixteen, when they were in front of my house
and gang unit ended up swooping by and everybody that
was there inside my house. They pulled us home out
and they took pictures of us and they went on
their way. Never did I imagine in my life that
that picture would come in hunt me almost ten years later.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around
in front of your own house and they took a
picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside
down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get
into that too. The fact is that we know that
there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including the
(07:40):
fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in most cases,
they were using six pictures on that page in the
Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research have now
proven scientifically that the human mind, if you give it
that many options, will go towards somebody that sort of
resembles a little bit. They'll start you'll start to make
up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't real because
(08:04):
you see all these different pictures. So by making the
simple change of putting one picture per page, we know
that the incidents of wrongful identifications go down by around
fifty percent. So that's the change that we're trying to
get made all over the country and in any case.
So so I mean, this is this is an unbelievable thing.
(08:24):
So you're now far away, have no idea what's going
on somewhere in a police station in these Los Angeles,
these witnesses, one of them randomly pickts your photo and
then what happens.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started
from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took
please and from there after the incidet I believe, they
showed the pictures, the pictures to the nick to the witnesses,
tell me about that to the witnesses, and fifteen days
later after the incident, that's when I got picked up.
(08:58):
I got picked up on anchel of twentieth.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
July the twenties.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
So paint this picture for us place, So you're July
the twenties, where were you.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
July twenty, I had just dropped off my wife at work.
I was because she went a little bit earlier than
I did. I dropped lass at work, I was heading
back home to get ready myself. And when I was
driving into I used to live in a Culdsfec at
the time. When I was driving in, I noticed that
there was a bunch of a shelf deputy patrol cars
on the side of the street and they were all
putting under gear. And uh, I see them. I said, Oh,
(09:26):
they're going to give somebody a rude awakening right now.
Little did I know they were going to my house.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And you.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
I read an article about you in San Francisco magazine
where you were talking about how you were literally, I'm
going to quote you. You said, I was literally living in
the American dream and then I got everything pulled out
from under my feet.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
You had two kids at this point, your.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, so
life was looking pretty pretty damn good.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just
thirty had been a year ago. We had bought on
in a house, so I mean, I mean, therefore we
were striving for it. The fire own house and retired
paint where so I mean we put we put our
nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for
we eased to move. But little did we know that,
I mean, this nightmare was going to start at night
(10:15):
of twenty year.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
So you had two boys six and three and a
little girl on the way and then you get picked
up taken in for questioning. I assume right, and explain it,
explain that process.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Well. The funny point is when I when I see
that take the sales patrol course in the coulda sat.
I came to the stop sign and they had a
picture of me, a blown up picture that they were
going to my house with. So when I got to
the stop sign, one of the deputies that had the picture,
it happened to me he had the pie was looking
at the picture at the time when I turned around
(10:48):
and I looked at and relactizing to each other, and
he drew his weapon on me and he yelled at
him trying to get off my map. So yeah, sure enough,
they got me off the van, and they said the
first one who tell me all, they need to talk
to you down the station. So I tell them all
of this here because they need to talk to me,
and he said, you know what, they'll explain to you
a little bit more. Well, from there, they took me
(11:08):
to the station. They put me in a vat outside
of the station and they left me there for it.
I say, m good, four hours So what reason? I'm
not sure, but I was here that for four hours.
Follows lady put me inside the whole treat and I
ask again, who needs to talk to me? What do
we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh,
you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you.
(11:30):
That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh.
Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next
to me when the detective involved in my case can't
talk to them, and I asked them, Hey, who's going
to talk to me? And he says, you know what,
wait to turn, I'll talk to you in that time.
So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're I'm
gonna talk to me now. Let me know, I'm going
(11:51):
to bail out because I got to go to work.
And his words to me where, you know what, I'm
gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're
gonna need it.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Who said that to you one? The need to take
you in my case, now you're there.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole
idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not
knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No,
I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in
and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come
and talk to you and they tell you you're being
charged with first degree murdered.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me.
It wasn't into my arrangement because I got to rest
them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning.
The following week. When I went into my arrangement that
seem to take they came to talk to me and
he asked me but my co defendant, and he asked me,
when was the last thing you seen him?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right?
Speaker 5 (12:35):
And this is an important point because the co defendant
ultimately testifies that you were not involved.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was
that there was a tape recording from the county jail.
Because me and me and my co defendant, I was
first enough to tell me who did this? I know
I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was
with you, and he just got like very upset because
I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what,
I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do
(13:01):
with this. So me and him got into a real
big argument and we ended up video to a fight.
Two days later, his girlfriend came and visited him in
the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him,
he had a black guy and his girlfriend started question
and what's going on with you? What's going on with you?
And said jail. So he told us, you know what,
I'm gonna tell you the children that's going on. You
(13:22):
know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's
asking around who was involved. And I told him to
stand up his business and he needs to keep this
his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else
asking about this clime.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And that was that was that was said.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
That yes, that was O. And originally when the tape
recording came to life, they had told my my my
attorney that it was me in the in the tamp
recording confess to the crime. So, uh, right before a
travel he said, we got a tape recording was this
confession to the crime. We didn't use it. So when
(13:59):
my attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look
at Andrew's names. That understand. I said, look at from
the day that I hired. I told you I had
nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change
up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that
I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay,
you know what, We're going to ask for an extension
and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll
come back in a month. So a month later, we
(14:19):
come back and I asked him what happened to recordings?
We doesn't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing
in that can help you, and there's nothing in there
that can hurt you.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
None of that makes any sense. So first of all,
let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you
and were you locked up this whole time?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally,
when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at
thirty thousand. When I went to my arrangement, they raised
my bill from thirty kundred dollars to two million.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Dollars two million, So they didn't want you going anywhere
and correct. And this attorney who we know, made a
series of mistakes that are literally out This is the
only word I can think of to explain.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
The nature the.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
So many of them and so egregious that any law
student would have been able to handle this case better
than he did. Obviously, this was a quarter pointed attorney.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
I'm assuming No, actually he was a private attorney.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was
he Do you have any theory as to what was
wrong with him in terms of was why why was
he so ill suited for this job?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Like?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
What was there something going on in his personal life?
Was there some did you ever find out?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
No? Actually, you know what when when my family first
hired him, I mean he talked a real good story
to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to
get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And
I mean he just said everything that you'll be said.
But as time was going by and postponement of post
it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know,
(16:01):
like he just literally gave it up on the kiss.
Because of the almost three years that I spent in
the county jail fighting this case. One time he came
within me. That was when when my family hired him.
After that, never again did he come and see me,
ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only
see him and would go to court.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
He came to see you one time in three years.
In three years, Oh my god. You know, this is
so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too. You know.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Hinton called The Sun Does Shine.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row by
Anthony ray Hinton with Lara lov Harden, and in it
he talks about Brian Stevenson, the legendary attorney who would
visit him on death row over fifteen years, like incredible
in a remote prison in Alabama, and here it is
like one time in three years. I like, I'm you know,
I'm so angry at this whole thing. It's like I
(16:57):
can't process how that could even be. And then in
the meantime he also made like mistakes that are unimaginable
in terms of the idea that you had a tape recording.
I'm just reflecting on this, right you had a tape
recording with the actual perpetrator saying that you his co defendant,
wasn't there and and he he couldn't even work with that,
(17:23):
Like he couldn't even and he's telling you that the
tape recording doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it
up at court, among other things, right, because I'm not
stopping there. I mean the idea that during the trial
he was unable to he did well, he wasn't unable.
He didn't call your coworker who would have testified and said.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That it was impossible for you to have.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Committed this crime since, as I said earlier in the podcast,
the whole you were the only guy there that could
operate the machinery, and we know that the machinery was operating,
and we know that you were You were there, you
were clocked in, you were I mean, it's just mine
by how you know how this could have transpired the
(18:05):
way it did and you lived it. So so I
want to get to this so it finally comes to
the trial. It took three years to get to trial.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, about two and a half years, which.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Is crazy in itself.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
And meanwhile, your kids are growing up without their father,
your wife is in the situation of trying to figure
out how to make ends meet, which I know that
ultimately she had to move out of the house that
your dream house, because I mean, who can raise three
kids and work a job, and I mean it's you know,
and in the meantime she's left with the task of
(18:51):
trying to explain to the kids. I'm sure they're asking,
when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean, it's just it's
so I mean, it's so much. It's just so much.
So you finally come to trial, and by the time
you got to trial, now, I mean you've got to
be almost a basket case by this point.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber explain it.
And just the worst part about it was that the
doubt was there from the beginning year for the prosecution.
Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys. It
wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take you
to trial. The first three came in. I mean the
(19:31):
first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top gang
prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He came
and he told my attorney at the time, you know what,
I have an offer for him. My offer for him
is twenty five with life. That's the only thing that
will offer him, you know. A year later he leaves
the case. They bring another prosecutor in from another city
(19:54):
and he comes in the same way. You know what.
There's no deals, there's no deals. Finally, when he's up,
maybe about ten months into the case, he says, you
know what, I might have a deal for you. We'll
see how that turns out. The following month he was
off the case. They bought another gentleman from the city
of Compton. He was on the case for a month.
He let the case go. They finally brought in This
(20:16):
is Ramibors Marie Remiors, which is the one that finally
took me to trial, and she's the one that finally
convicted me, you know.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
And my team was, yeah, Raf, where you tried, If
it's okay if I call you Ralf. Were you tried
together with all of ours or separately?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
No? Together?
Speaker 5 (20:36):
But he didn't take the stand, and you had the
tape recording. But the lawyer didn't bother to tell anybody
about this tape recording where he was admitting that you
weren't there.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Exactly. It's like the stay recording. The prosecution is the
one that brought them to light. But at the end,
nobody used them. And when we when we got our
appeal granted, and we came to the federal courthouse and
he asked mister Stein about the tape recording. All he
responded was, you know what, I think my secretary listened
(21:06):
to them.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
Wow, my secretary listened to them. Doesn't that say at all?
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Right?
Speaker 5 (21:12):
That that is what's so nuts to me is that
there that there are people in this less justice system
I call it sometimes in justice system that are so
cavalier about someone's life, because in your case, it really
was your life. I mean, twenty five to life is
a life sentence. Let's face it. I mean there's when
twenty five to life sentence as a twenty five year
(21:34):
old man, you're basically looking at spending the rest of
your life behind bars. And this guy had his secretary
listen to the recording. Okay, that's I'm just gonna think
about this for a second. So when you went to trial,
by now, you I mean, I'm assuming you had lost
faith in your attorney, had did you consider it firing him,
(21:56):
hiring somebody else?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Well, I really did a system of what you could
and can do. It was my first time in being
in a position like this. Keep in mind, I have
never been arrested soon, I have never been turned before.
So I was lost. You know, my only guidance was
my attorney.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Right, and you and you want to have you want
to have faith in him at this point, I'm assuming
because you need to have faith in somebody or something,
and he's your advocate, he's your champion.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
But when you went to trial, did you feel like,
how can I say this?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated?
I mean, at this point the system had already you know,
shown you it's its worst sides. So but but still
you knew you were innocent. So what was your like
going in to the court room finally after all these
years or two and a half years, three years? Did
you feel like you were going to be exonerated? Or
(22:55):
you were you like, oh, you know they've got me
and that's going to be it.
Speaker 7 (22:59):
No, know, I I like, honestly, I never did my
faith in the truth.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
I was always under the impression, you know, one sec
of the trial, I'm going to.
Speaker 7 (23:08):
Be able to pull my innocent I'm going to prove it.
And the trial masted two days deliberations, ris and lot
of it in the childhood deliberation was on four days.
And they kept on and they kept on coming back.
The jury kept on coming back to pursuing my alibi.
So the doubt was there from the beginning. There wasn't
the doubt just to the jury.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
It was.
Speaker 7 (23:27):
It was there for the beginning, even with the prosecution.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
But here's another thing.
Speaker 5 (23:32):
As I was reading and rereading your story, I was thinking,
you're sitting there next to your lawyer. He's not calling
your alibi witness. Uh, from the I don't know what
the guy's name was. From the factory or was it
a factory, or or what was the place that you
were working at?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
What was it called?
Speaker 4 (23:51):
It was it was a manufacturing company.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
And what was the name of the guy who never
was called that should have been called, that could have act. Actually,
you know, absolutely without any doubt, established your your alibi
as being factual.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
That was my manager of Bob Howard's.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Was he in the courtroom, No, he was never in
the courtroom.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Actually he got to the court room and to my understanding,
by attorney told him that he was not going to
be called to testified, but he did show up.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
Did you at any point say to your attorney, where
is Bob Howard? Why isn't he here? Why aren't you
calling him to the stand?
Speaker 4 (24:30):
No, I mean I was.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
My head was just just so lost when I kept
on just hearing how the prosecution kept on just making
me look like this animal, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
And even when the victim himself got up in the standing,
they asked him, do you see the person who shot
who shot you here today in this court room. The
gentleman said, the person who shot me, he's not here.
He wasn't lying, He was never lying. He was saying
the truth. But what would make that bad was that
right after he got understand, was that they put to
(25:06):
take to the move, understand, and they asked him to
take to the move. Why do you feel a missie
Aguilla is saying that the person who shot him is
not here? So his comments were, oh, well, he feels
he doesn't want to be label to snitch, he doesn't
want to be labeled to rap, he doesn't want any repercussions.
But it was never that the gentleman was saying the
(25:26):
truth the person that shot him was not important.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
I'm again trying to figure. I'm trying to put myself
inside the mind of the jury, because even with such
even with such a I mean, inadequate is not a
strong enough word, but even with such an incompetent, disinterested,
even still with that alone, you would think that the
jury would go well, okay, I guess that's it, you know.
(25:52):
And obviously they thought long and hard before they finally
decided what they decided and and sentenced you to to
this this terrible uh, this terrible term in prison. So
that moment must have been the worst moment of your life.
I mean, I can't imagine anything worse. When the jury
(26:13):
came back in, did they look at you? Was your
family in the courtroom? Can you was it hot?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Was it cold? Do you remember? Can you paint the
picture for us of what that was like?
Speaker 4 (26:25):
And I remember it clearly, like it was yesterday. It
was almost days in for the jury, and I was
under the impression it was I believe a flighting. They
were gonna just bring us back on Monday. The bailiff
called called us in from the from the holding tank decision,
and when I think they came back with the verdict,
three o'clock to me thirty in the afternoon, and I
remember my pums were sweating so bad, and I don't
(26:49):
know if it was hot and narrow it was cold.
I was. I was nervous, you know, And the jury
came back and just hearing those words, you know, when
we find the defending guilty, it's like if I had
the world on my shoulders at the time, the world
just came crashing down on me.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
And you can't help thinking, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ralph.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I mean it was just then turning along fee my
family and just everybody breaking down trying because they knew
the truth. I mean, nobody better than my family knew
the truth. And them hearing the word's guilty as like
they just took the air out of their ownness.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
And I can't help thinking that the fact that it
was the weekend coming up and the jury didn't want
to have to come back or be I don't know
if they were sequestered, but that probably played a role
inside that room of them saying you know what, maybe
there was one or two holdouts and they finally said,
you know what, this weekend and Monday, I gotta go
to work whatever.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And so for anybody who's listening.
Speaker 5 (27:52):
I always say, please, if you get called for jury duty,
first of all, show up. I know it's annoying, it's difficult,
it's in a position on all of our life.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Show up, serve on a jury.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
Pay attention, and remember that somebody like Raphael is hanging
in the balance. His whole life is hanging in the balance.
When you're sitting there, and you know, it's all of
our duty to our fellow citizens, so orofellow human beings
that we give it, you know, all the attention that
it deserves, and that we remember that these mistakes happen
as often as they do, and you're living proof of it.
So you're now convicted a sense to twenty five years
(28:28):
to life. The worst thing that could possibly happen, you
go to prison. I guess I want to get to
the I want to get to the good part, right,
the exoneration and what's happening now. But if you can
tell us during those see you had been waiting almost
three years for the trial, and you were in for
another almost seven in a maximum security prison. And was
(28:53):
that as bad as everyone is imagining it to be?
Was there anything? Was there any bright spot in that
whole time you were there. What was the best and
the worst aspect of that entire miserable time of seven years.
And then again this is in adding because you were
in almost ten but the seven years inside prison after
you had been tried and convicted, you.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Know, I could honestly say the best point of those
of those ten years was coming across Eric Moltop, which
was the attorney who originally contacted the California interspodseet. Mister
Moltop was referred to me by my state appointed appeal attorney,
(29:37):
Laura Seaffer. And when Laura Seaffer got my case originally
after I got sentenced, you know, she was very honest
with me. She told me the way it was, the
system works. She says, Looking, you got to understand, we're
state appointed appeal attorneys. They don't pay us to do
extra labors. They just pay us to do push PayPal
fore days. You know. But after going through your case,
(30:00):
you're not supposed to be here. And I told him,
you know what, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.
And she went as far as telling them, but you
know what, you're gonna have to get a private attorney
to be able to help you out. And she referred
me to the gentleman Eric moltip out of No Valley, California.
And this gentleman from the beginning when he got a
hold of my case, he contacted me and within a
(30:21):
month a month and a half, I want to say,
he wrote me a letter and he explained to me,
He goes, look, I read your case already. I don't
know what you're doing in prison. You know, we need
to get you home. And from there he got the
bone rolling. He started investigating. And the first thing that
I call him when he came to visit me, I
told him, Eric, the only thing I need you to
do is because I have never listened to the tape recordings.
(30:46):
I asked him, please listen to the tape recording to
send being there. It always stood in the back of
my mind, there has to be since there. And he goes, okay,
you know where I'm gonna listen to him.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I kid you not.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Maybe within a month he went back to the prisoners
in the game and he asked me, is that you
and the tape recordings. I said, look, Errett, I haven't
listened to them. I don't know what's in them. So
he brought a copy of tape recordings and he played it,
and as soon as the first work came out of
the tape recording, I told him that's Francisco. I recognized
his voice immediately. He says, are you sure? I said,
(31:18):
look at them, one hundred percent sure, that's Francisco and
Waters on the tape recordings. And that's what just got
the ball rolling. We're able to admit the tape recordings
back in todment because originally the prosecutions prosecution is the
one that you have brought them out to light, but
they were never used. So it goes you know what,
I got to get this back in there. And sure enough,
(31:39):
that was one of the key things that the magistrate
in the Federal appeals court asked, why were these tape
recorders never used in his defense?
Speaker 5 (31:49):
It's a damn good question. And it was newly discovered
evidence at that point as well, which is great.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
So okay, so let's fast forward.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Now what must have been maybe other than the to
your kids or I don't know, but it must have
been the happiest.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Day of your life, which is the day that you were.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Back in court. How did you get end up getting exonerated?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Released?
Speaker 5 (32:07):
And must have been like this million pound weight has
lifted off your shoulders now, So can you explain that right?
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Well, the flip side is that we first had a
file of motion FORVID injury hearing and we got that
advent hearing granted. So I was brought from prison back
down to Orange County where the evidence your hearing was
going to take place. So during that evident you're hearing,
we were able to call my attorney who represented me,
(32:34):
we put him on a stand, and we were able
to bring mister Bob Howards and put him on the stand, so,
I mean all the pieces that were missing at the trial.
We put him in front of the fell of the
courthouse and that's what was able to bring the light.
So once we got mister Stein under Stein on the
stand and he was able to just literally deny everything
(32:56):
that he did and also put mister how I was
understanding him, admit you know what he was at work.
I'm one hundred percent positlyn to use at work. There's
no way he could have been gone. You know. That's
what took turn bottom. This was in October. In June
of two thousand and nine, my appeal was granted.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
I mean, how did you feel. What were you freed
from the courtroom. Explain the whole thing, because this is
my favorite part of the show, right, the good part.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Right. Well, the next day, all that day, I just
slep all night. Literally I slipped not one hour of shady.
The next morning, I'm thinking, Okay, they're going to come
me early in the morning. Then they're gonna walk me
out seven o'clock, eight o'clock. Let there, finally winning the
Tipitis came the to my cell and said, you know,
(33:48):
we'll get your stuff ready. I got to take you
down to our which is receiving a release. And he
told me, oh, your Turney is supposed to be here
to pick you up at eleven o'clock. But if he's
not here, we have to that you go those that's
the court order. So eleven o'clock came and they walked
me to the gate and mister Eric Moltop was there
waiting for me. You know, it was it was an
(34:11):
unexplainable relief happiness. I don't know if there was just
a bunch of emotions going through me.
Speaker 7 (34:18):
You know, my dad just passed away eight months.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Earlier, so it was it was just a bunch of
things going through my mind. You know, how was I
going to get back into society? What was I going
to do? You know, it's just a minute things going
through your mind. I get home, man, there's a bunch
of camera that was waiting for me, my family. I
mean literally, it was the best day of my life.
The only bad plub about it in there My dad
(34:43):
wasn't there waiting for me.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
I want to talk about something else that's really important
in your case. And I know we don't have a
lot of timele left, but you were ultimately fully exonerated, conviction,
reverse charges dropped, declared.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Actually innocent. Is that right?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
That's correct?
Speaker 5 (35:07):
And so it's amazing Ralph, because I've been doing this
work for twenty five twenty six years now, and I
talk about it all the time, no matter where I am,
I'm always talking about it. And I tell these stories
about your case, about all these different cases that I know,
because it drives me crazy. And the first question everybody
asks me is did he get Did the person the
(35:29):
man or woman the exgonery? Did they get compensated? So
the first thing everybody wants to know. Their eyes get
real wide, they say did the guy get? I hope
they get and I have to tell them, well, it's
not what you think. And you're living proof of that,
right because you have gone through almost like another trial.
It really it is another trial, just trying to get
(35:50):
what's due for you. And in California the compensation statute,
and I'm working on getting it fixed. But it's so crazy.
Can you explain that a little bit? Because most people
think you get out, they send you a check. Hey man, sorry,
we've messed up your life, like, uh, you know, let
me give you a little way.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
To get started here, you know, But that's not the
way it is.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
It's actually the total opposite. I mean California. And it's
sadly saying that California, up until recently, their whole exonerate
exoneration passive was never there. I mean, the gates open
for you, and you know, there's no apology, there's no,
like you said, a check waiting for you. There's nothing
(36:31):
waiting for you. It's their opening and they just kick
you out into the world. You know, I've been out.
As a matter of fact, it's been nine years. On Saturday,
October of six, it's been my nine year anniversary that
I've been home.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Happy birthday, Happy University.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Up until now, I haven't seen any type of help
from the State of California. I've been to hearings after hearing,
and every time we go with it's like on the
trail because you have these people on the board who
are more into denying you, not the compensation, but the truth,
(37:10):
denying you. They keep on denying the truth, you know,
for what reason, I don't know. I don't know what
holds them back from saying, you know what, a mistake
was made here, we have to fix it. But up
until this date, nobody, nobody in the state of California
has said, you know what we done, these people wrong,
we have to fix it. And I'm not the only one.
(37:32):
There's several individual Exanna Revees that are here in California
where I haven't been compensated. They're in the same situation
that I'm in. They've been fighting for their compensation for six, seven, eight,
nineteen years.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
No I know, and I've read some of those stories
and it's really horrible, including some that have ended up
going back to prison just because they haven't been able
to support themselves because they're facing the same thing that
you're facing, which is that coming out and having to
tell their prospective employer that they have a conviction even
though it was overturned, and then they're either not getting
(38:04):
hired or getting fired from the jobs that they know
that they should have. I think as a society, we
have to open our hearts and minds, and we have
to open our companies. I talked to CEOs and other
people in positions of power that run.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Big companies about this all the time.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
I think there's a lot more openness to this now,
to this concept that we need to give people a
second chance, innocent or guilty, but particularly if you're innocent,
to get back on their feet.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
And yet people like.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
Kenneth Foley is a classic example, right, who was convicted
of armed robbery ninety five cents to twenty five years
to life and exonerated in two thousand and seven, and
then denied compensation and couldn't get a job and ultimately
had PTSD and all these other things that ended up
with a fifteen year cents for a vehicular manslaughter because
he was high on drugs or whatever it was. I mean,
it's a tragedy on top of a tragedy. So it's
(38:59):
amazing to staydy is willing to pay all this money
to keep you locked up, but they're not willing to
pay anything to help you when you get out.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
It's so strange. What do you and and Rob?
Speaker 5 (39:10):
It's like to me, it seems like the people sitting
on that board their job should be to figure out
how to get you this money and how to help
you manage it once you do get it. That would
be the job of that board. If I was running it,
I would say, Okay, let's make sure that not only
are you going to get it, but you're going to
know how to invest it. We're going to show you
how to you know, I mean because a lot of
people in your situation coming out and what you were
(39:31):
actually successful businessman already, but many people are not and
this is their first experience having a lump sum of money.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So how would you fix this? Because it's crazy.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
You're literally having to prove your innocence again after a
judge and a jury and a prosecutor everybody else has
decided you're innocent. How would you fix the system? What
do you think it should be?
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Well, I think the first thing off the top, it
makes no sense to me for you to put a
prosecutor on the compensation board. I mean, to me, that's
the number one biggest mistake they could do. You know,
a prosecutor to me, will always be a prosecutor no
matter how you look at it. You know, he's never
(40:15):
going to go against other prosecutors who probably convicted you
and they know for a fact you were innocent. There
is a situation that happened in my in my, in
my situation. You know, mister Mike Cromwolls, who was no
longer on the board, but I mean this here, Never
(40:37):
once did he even take the time to say, you
know what, I have an innocent individual here and suddenly,
what am I going to do fix this problem? Instead,
he was up on that seat being a prosecutor. He
questioned me so much in regards to what took place
twenty years ago, instead of focusing on, you know, we
(41:00):
have an individual years That was the case with him.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
It's important to recognize that there are thirty one states
that have compensation statues in nineteen that have none, and
even then in some of those states it's only you
have to have a DNA proof or you have to
have this or that. It's not a streamline system like
it should be. I think to me, once you're proven
innocent and you're out, there should be there's like in Texas,
there should be a very ironically, Texas has the best system.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
You get eighty thousand per year.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
For every year you in you get an annuity, and
sort of ironic that Texas, which most people would think
would have one of the worst systems, actually has one
of the best.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I know why that is.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
It's thanks to Rodney Ellis, who was a state senator
who passed a bill that really changed it, turned it
upside down. And we need to do the same thing
in California. And there are a lot of you should know,
there are a lot of good people working on it,
and I'm going to be helping to lead this charge
to fix it for you and for everyone else like you,
because it's absolutely it's disgusting in my opinion that you
(42:04):
are now having to fight. And by the way, not
only is it as you said, it's the opposite of
what it should be because on top of everything else,
you have to make time in your life, which you
have enough obligations with three kids, work, struggling everything else,
to go and appear in all these different hearings and
everything else. It's ridiculous. There should just be a check
(42:27):
in the mailbox for you with your name on it
that says, hey, good luck, sorry this happened to you,
you know, looking forward to seeing you succeed moving forward.
Hope this helps something like that, You know what I mean.
But man, it's really I think it's so important that
you're here and talking about this because that problem has
to get fixed, and it has to get fixed at
(42:48):
the highest levels, right And I think I'm going to
be I'm going to be keeping in touch with you,
if it's all right, because I'm going to call on
you maybe to have some meetings with some you know,
people in positions of power who can who can make
these changes, because I believe if if the people that
make these decisions are made aware, which is why it's
so important that you're here, they're going to want to
(43:09):
fix this because it's it's just it just doesn't make
any sense. But I just think people aren't really focused
on it. So the more attention we can bring, the
better it's going to be, obviously for you and everybody else.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
So before before.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
We have to wrap up, I wanted to ask you
one more question. There was actually two more questions. One question,
how how is your How are your kids doing?
Speaker 4 (43:30):
My kids are doing great, thank god. You know. My
oldest Andrew, he's twenty four. He has about one more year,
about a year and a half left a Long Beach
State to complete the major. My second oldest, he just
gotta to accept this letter to Long be State and
one to Keelsetate Folish and also so I mean, family wise,
(43:54):
I cannot complete one bit. You know. I thank god
that I came out, that my wife done such a
great job with them in those ten years. She you know,
guided them in the right direction. And now these kids
are open and they're they're leading a good life.
Speaker 5 (44:11):
It's amazing. That's really an amazing testament to them. And
like you said to your wife, because to grow up
in that situation without their dad and and to be
able to, you know, take that adversity and turn it
into they can call it triumph because it sounds like
they're they're they're knocking it out of the park. I mean,
they're they're doing amazing and that's and it's also it's
(44:34):
also a tribute to you. I mean, you obviously have
had a tremendously positive influence on them. So you know
I wish, I wish you and them all the best
and everything that you deserve before we go, and I
know you have to run, but I always like to
end the show the same way, which is that I
like to This is I think everyone's favorite part of
the show. When I stopped talking, and I just first
(44:57):
of all want to thank you again for being here
taking time. I'm out of your schedule to share your
story with the audience here on Wronfel Conviction. And now
I'm going to turn it over to you just for
any last thoughts that you want to share about anything.
So the microphone is yours, and thank you again for
being here.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
Thank you well. I just want to take the time
more than anything to thank my family and my wife,
my kids, my mom, my dad who was no longer
with me, but I mean all my thanks goes to
him because he was one of the ones always in
the front right with me fighting for this. I also
want to think Justin and all of the California Indusry Project,
(45:37):
Eric Moltop.
Speaker 7 (45:38):
Eric Moltop was the.
Speaker 4 (45:39):
Key piece to exonerating me, to getting me home, you know,
and lesson, but at least you know, to those prosecutors
and to take us out there. You know, if you're
hearing me, you know, take the time to investigate your cases.
Don't just look for a conviction. It's not right putting
people in prison as in that command. You're not only
(46:02):
destroying their life, but you're destroying many lives behind their
their kids, their families, I mean, their parents. It just
takes a toll on society itself. You know, I was
one of the lucky ones who it only took ten
years to his alrea. But there are gentlemen out there
who were concentrated for twenty thirty years. Thirty years later,
(46:22):
there's not a life out of here for you. You know,
everything has changed.
Speaker 5 (46:30):
I think that's that's a great way to wrap up.
I'm glad you brought up the California Innocence Project. I've
had Justin on the podcast a couple of times, I think,
and he is a huge source of inspiration for me
and everybody in the movement. Of course, right now he's
marching to Sacramento to deliver to deliver petitions for clemency
(46:54):
on behalf of the California twelve. And he really is
just a great, great man, And I want to encourage
everyone to go to California Innocenceproject dot org. That's California
Innocence Project dot org. Get involved, volunteer, donate, hold a fundraiser,
do a bake sale, whatever your thing is. There's too
(47:15):
many people in the same situation that Raphael was in
and we need to go get them out. And uh
and I will say to you now again, Raphael, and
I'll never stop fighting. There's a there's a ton of
good people who care about you and everyone else like
you out there, so I know you got to get
to work, so I'm not gonna hold you up anymore.
(47:37):
But thanks again. I'm looking forward to meeting you in
California the next time. And uh and and all my
best to you and your family. Likewise, don't forget to
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
It really helps.
Speaker 5 (47:56):
And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
I really hope you'll join me and supporting this very
important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and
get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
Hall and Kevin Wartis the music in the show is
by three time OSCAR nominated.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 5 (48:17):
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
and association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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