Introducing - Undisclosed: TJ Weekly - Jason Flom

In this episode, Rabia and Colin chat with Jason Flom about his transition from leading roles in the music industry to becoming an advocate for criminal justice reform, wrongful convictions, and innocence work.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hi, and welcome back to Undisclosed Toward Justice, our weekly episode.
I'm here as always with my colleague and Pill host
Colin Miller. Hey, Colin, how are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Doing great? How about yourself?

Speaker 1 (00:31):
I'm well, I'm well. I am very excited that we
have a very special guest on this week, who I
think is the Is it the first time? Maybe he's
joining us, Colin, I believe so, okay, and it's a
big get. It's a big get for us. We're welcoming
on our show this week. Jason Flohm.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Hi, Jason, Hi, Ravia, Hi Colin. How you doing. Oh,
we already know, because you already asked you you're still
doing good five seconds ago. You're doing good. You're probably
still doing good.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Might have changed the mood in a few seconds there.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, yeah, no, no, Hey, we are so excited to
have you on. We know you have a super busy schedule.
Anybody who is familiar with criminal justice, media advocacy, innocence work,
I mean, Jason, you are a very well known entity
in this space, but your career mostly was in the
music industry as an executive. I mean, you were the

(01:21):
founder of Lava Records, but also the chairman of Atlantic Records,
Version Records, Capital Music Group. Then you started Lava for
Good and Lava for Good for folks who know I
mean like the brand. Wrongful Conviction is your brand. You
know you're wearing the T shirt, but that's as a
powerful brand and you've been doing it for years and
under the Lava for Good label, you have produced so

(01:42):
many shows around justice and law and I am fascinated
with your story and our listeners don't know it, but
I want to know how you went from being, you know,
a music producer executive to this work, which is not
even close to being as glamorous as what you have done.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
You're lying, it's kind of the opposite. I guess. Oh,
it's funny. Robber, you know many years ago it must
have been. It was before COVID, so I don't know
six years ago or so. I remember there was a
week when I went down to death Row in Texas
on a Monday to visit Rob Will. It was the
first time I visited him. We featured him on the

(02:20):
Wrongful Conviction podcast and there's been a lot of media
around his case. It's an outrageous case and he's an
incredible person. So Anyway, I went down there and visited
him on death Row, and then I flew to LA
because it was Grammy Week, so I was out there
for all the festivities and all the different fancy parties
and whatnot they have there, and I ended up at
the Grammys. I went with my son that year, and

(02:42):
I taught my sign I would get seats that would
be very good seats in the sort of tenth throw
or whatever it was, right. But then what I showed
him I shouldn't admit this on the ear, is that
when during the commercial breaks, you could just get up
and go to whatever seat you want because most of
the people sitting in those seats are seats, right. So
you go to someone who looks like they have a

(03:02):
suit that they bought at a very inexpensive outlet, let's
just say, and you go, excuse me, you're in my seat,
and they invariably get up and leave, and next thing
you know, we end up sitting in the front row
next to pal McCartney. Where the hell it is? Right?
And so.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
I'm going to file that information away just in case
it comes in handy one day.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, they changed the thing now now they made tables,
so the stars all sit at the tables with drinks
and stuff, and it's a better setup for them. But
back then you could do this and obvious seem to
be the only one that was doing it. But I
had this revelation at that moment. I was like, Wow,
what a week because this was Sunday night, right, So
I was like death row to the front row, like
literally like one week. So yeah, and that's sort of

(03:43):
a very sort of perfect example of the crazy dichotomy
of my life. But I got into this, Robbie because
when I was thirty two years old, I was getting
in a taxi and there was a newstand and I
wanted something to read because back then there was no
like messing around on your phone and doing you know,
wordal or Instagram or whatever we do, and so I

(04:05):
wanted the Times. It was sold out and I picked
up the post, which is not something I had ever
done before or never or since or never will do again,
but it was what was available, and I wanted something
to read, and I was obviously meant to read it
because it was a story that caught my eye about
a kid named Stephen Lennon who was serving fifteen to
life for a non violent first defense, cocaine possession charge,

(04:25):
and a maxim security prison in New York State. The
reason it was in the paper was because his mother
surely had been trying to get clemency from Governor Mario
Cuomo and had been turned down, even though the warden
had written a letter of support the sentence of judge
and even Geraldine Ferraro with those of you who are
old enough to remember or remember it was the first
woman to ever get a nomination to be vice president

(04:45):
from one of the major political parties of the United States.
So this was a headline and so I caught my
attention because it had drugs in prison and at both
things of which I was fascinated by. Still am but
my drug days are forty years behind me. But but
he was thirty two, I was thirty two. He had
been in prison for eight years. I had been sober
for almost eight years at that point in time, and

(05:05):
I was like, this definitely could have been me. So
I decided to see if I could do something about it.
Knowing absolutely nothing about anything about drug laws or what
any of this stuff, it just struck me as so outrageous.
Fifteen of life, nonviolent first offense, cocaine possession charge. I'm like,

(05:25):
so I got the only Crembel defense latter I knew
at the time was a guy in Bob Kalina. He
represented Stone Table Palace at Schedule, both of whom I
had signed, both of whom were getting arrested like weekly
in those days. So I was like, Bob, can you help?
He goes, no, there's nothing you can do. I said,
do me a favor, because by now I had called
the kid's mother on the phone. Katie was the same
age as I was. I had called Shirley on the

(05:46):
phone and spoken to her. He agreed to take the
case pro bono as a favorite to me. He said,
I won't win, but I'll try, and I go great.
So six months later we end up in a courtroom
in Malone, New York, up by the Canadian border. Still
had a mullet and purple Doc Martins, this is how
long ago this was. And the judge is this old

(06:07):
guy with white hair. This is not going to go
all I'm saying to myself, and he looked like Ted
Forsythe and the arguments go back and forth, back and forth.
I have no idea what I don't I just known
Shirley Lennon's mom is squeezing my hand so tired, I'm
cutting off circulation and she's kind off the circulation. And
then the judge bangs that cavel down and says the
motion is granted. And I was like, huh wow. And

(06:30):
then Bob comes scurrying over in his three piece suit,
and know, he's kind of overweight, and you know, so
picture picture what your picture you're picturing him? And anyway,
and so he comes sort of bustling over and I
was like, Bob, what happened? And he goes, we won.
I was like we what? And he goes, we won,
and I was like, that's incredible, you know, and they
sent the kid home and I was like, Okay, now

(06:51):
I know what to do with the rest of my life.
And that's how it happened. I've never stopped.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Had you at that point had any interaction yourself with
the criminal legal system.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Almost, I mean, it's long enough ago statue limitations. You're
a lawyer, Yeah, I think we're I had been.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Where's the body buried?

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Then I'd had cops pointing guns at me when I
was doing something I really shouldn't have been doing. And
for some reason, probably the color of my skin, the
zip code I lived in. They didn't search all four
of us. They searched me into other guys and not
the other guy who were on the street. And the

(07:30):
last guy was the guy they should have searched, and
had they, I would have ended up in jail for sure.
And so you know, I came close and there was
no excuse for it. I shouldn't have been putting myself
in those type of positions, but I did. And look,
let's face it too, like I got into, you know,
substance abuse issues, and you know when you get into

(07:50):
especially I was, I had some issues with Columbian marching powder,
let's call it. And so you know, when you do that, though,
invariably you can be you wrapped up in the system
because when kids, and I was a kid, go and
they all are doing it, and then they're like, somebody
go get it, and we'll get a volume discount, right,
and we'll I'll split it up. Now all of a sudden,

(08:11):
they can get you.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
For distribution, right. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
And so I was in the wrong place at the
wrong time so many times. And that's why I say
it could have been me.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
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got a grand baby on the way. That's right, you
heard me, right, I'm going to be a grandma, and
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Speaker 2 (10:09):
You've discussed including just now your music world and the
Wrongful Conviction World coinciding and coming together, and I wonder
recently on the podcasts, I discussed how over the past
decade or so, there's been a rash of cases in
which prosecutors have presented lyrics, typically rap lyrics that were

(10:31):
authored by defendants to prove this is a drug kingpin,
they're committing these violent crimes, etc. And now a few states,
most recently Maryland, have passed laws. Maryland's laws called the
PACE Act Protecting Artists Creative Expression Act, banning the use
of music lyrics against the defendant trial, and so I
wonder you know, Jason, in your backgrounds in music and

(10:53):
your innocence work, what is your thought about these prosecutors
using lyrics authored by I defend into try on this
trend of states now banning it.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Well, it's really interesting timing for us to be having
this conversation because last week Texas executed James Broadnax, who
I believe everybody knew that was involved, was innocent of
the crime he was convicted of. And I say that
because he was convicted largely because of lyrics that he
had written when he was a kid, and in his case,

(11:25):
his cousin had confessed to the crime, and the physical
evidence showed that his cousin wasn't lying right, he wasn't
being heroic and taking a fall. He was a guy
that did it and James didn't do it. But because
he had written these lyrics, you know, eons ago, they
went ahead and executed him with not a care in

(11:47):
the world. So sometimes I think these people are so
sick that they get an extra thrill out of executing
people that they think or maybe or are innocent. I
don't know. I mean, it's so sinister. I can't even
figure it out. But to your question, I think it's
high time that we, you know, got to a place
of sanity where lyrics are disconnected from anything to do

(12:12):
in the criminal legal system. They aren't evidence of anything
except maybe creativity or the lack thereof, right. I mean,
there's good lyrics, there's bad lyrics, there's vile that lyrics.
There's every kind of lyrics under the sun. It doesn't
mean a damn thing. That's like saying someone wrote a
novel where there was a murder, and therefore they must
be a murderer, because how else would that thought pop

(12:33):
in their head. It's so ridiculous. Or movies, right, or anything.
And so it's one of these things. In Robbie you
know this well too, Like I mean, we take our
victories where we can get them, and you know, we
hope that Who is it Brian Stevens that said the
arc of the world universe events towards justice? Or is

(12:55):
that Martin Luther King? That's one other King? I think
so those two have a lot in common. But so yeah,
I think the Maryland thing was a big win. My
friend Diana Lapolte was involved on that. She's a you know,
phenomenal music business lawyer who else is very involved in
civil rights work. So shout out to Dina.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
So Jason you you were involved in innocence work well
before I think this country and most people understood the
concept of innocence and how it operates. And I think
that's like Cereal kind of brought that to the forefront
in the last fifteen years or so. I mean, to
this day, what I've discovered is outside of the US,
you know, innocence still really is not understood as a concept,

(13:33):
even my legal practitioners and advocates. I've spoken to folks
from around the world who have said to me, can
you come and train lawyers and advocates in other countries
on how to do innocence work because we don't we
don't have it here. But you've been doing this for
a long time. However, after Cereal arrived on the scene,
I wanted to ask you, is that what got you
into the podcast space.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
I wasn't an early adopter of Cereal. Strangely enough, Oh okay,
I was well aware of it, and I'd read about it,
but I didn't. I don't. I think I was late
to the game and listening and probably fifty or one
hundred million people listened to it before I did. It's
incredible what that was literally a cultural touchstone. It almost

(14:13):
sort of not a revolutionary, but almost created the genre.
And so yeah, yeah, I think what year was that,
twenty fourteen? Yeah, right, So then I had had a
couple of different people ask me about doing a podcast,
but you know, I hadn't really picked up on the
queue yet. And then in twenty sixteen, I was in

(14:35):
a meeting with a friend of mine, was being introduced
to this guy and he, you know, he heard me
proselytizing about the Innocence work and everything like I do,
and he said, you know, you should really do a podcast.
And I was like, yeah, you're not the first guy
that said that, and he goes, yeah, but I'm in
the podcast business. I was like, oh, okay, let's get
to work. So that's how it started. It literally was
as random as that, and so it's been it's been

(14:59):
an incre credible thing. I mean, the Wrongful Conviction podcast
is now five hundred and seventy something episodes in I
don't know, sixty million or so downloads, and it's reached
into the halls of power. I mean, I'm very proud
of the impact that's had on individual cases that we
know about. And obviously it never just takes a podcast.

(15:19):
It takes a village, right, It takes attorneys and other
media and all sorts of stuff to undo one of
these disasters. But it has had a significant enough impact
that in many cases we've had either the person who's
wrong for the convicted who then was freed, or their
legal team cite us as having been an important part

(15:43):
of the effort to free them. And that means the
world to me. I've gotten calls from the courthouse steps.
Sometimes I get facetimes from people right when they walk
out on their attorney's phones or their their you know,
their sister's phone or whoever. And one of them just
called me, actually, Freddie Brinkley. But the amazing thing to
me is that it's reached into the halls of power.
You know, I remember, I think you'll get a kick.

(16:05):
And we know that there have been bills written at
least three states, because we know about the three where
the legislators that wrote those bills that were signed to
the law have cited one of our podcasts as the
reason why they were inspired to write these bills that
made the system a little fairer and better, amazingly Indiana
and Washington State. But I'll tell you one funny aside
is that I was on the phone with the chief

(16:27):
council and a governor's office in a southern state some
time ago. And this is years ago, and she was new,
so I didn't know her. But I was advocating for
a clemency for a couple of people whose cases we
had featured on our show. And I had the attorney
for one of these men on the phone with us,
and we're laying out our whole reasons why they should

(16:49):
get the governor's attention, and she goes, you know, this
reminds me of this podcast I started listening to recently,
you know, because it's pretty good. You know, they do this,
they tell these stories kind of like you guys are
telling me now, Like they lay out the whole case
and they talked to the wrong and she's like, I
can't remember what it's called. And I'm like, I'm like,
her name was Leslie. I like Leslie Leslie. She's like, no, no,

(17:11):
you got to hear me out, Like I'll call up
with the name of it in a minute. It's pretty good.
You should check it out. And I'm like, well, I
don't know how to tell you this, but that's me.
She's like, amazing, Yeah, that's you. I was like, yeah, okay,
this is a moment I'll remember for a long time.
So and we ended up getting a relief for these guys,
which was great. But yeah, So that's that's the Wrongful
Conviction podcast in a nutshell. And of course I love

(17:32):
the fact that with as many people listening to it
as do, it is a statistical, extreme probability that someone
is sitting in a jury room right now in America, yeah,
maybe even elsewhere in the world and being fed a
bunch of bullshit by prosecutors, quote unquote experts, police people

(17:56):
who know better. Yeah, and they're not going to fall
for it. Yeah, because I.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Have long said that that, you know, the subversive mission
of Undisclosed is to tate every jury in America for
the better. So I totally get that. I mean, look,
your work has you know, not just not just made
differences in the halls of power, like you know, with
criminal justice reform with legislation, but you've gotten clemency's pardons, exonerations,

(18:21):
and also so much recognition. I mean, like, you know,
just recognition in the industry itself, which is not easy
to get. I mean, after starting Wrongful Conviction, then you
founded Lava for Good, and Lava for Good produces many
more shows outside of Wrongful Conviction, including ones that people
I know our listeners are familiar with, like Ear Witness
and Bone Valley. I mean, like this just incredibly popular

(18:44):
shows as well, not just impactful.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, and I'm so glad you mentioned that Bone Valley.
We're getting ready to release season five, which is called
Bone Valley Devil's Quarry, and it is already getting a
significant amount of fanfars but admitted to right back a
film festival. It's in partnership with Rolling Stone Magazine, which
is very exciting because Rolling Stone has been a big

(19:07):
part of my story for so many years. I think
they've done some of the most important reporting on these
type of issues for generations now and so, and I
feel like they're still relevant, which is incredible. So, like
I said, they did a story about Rob Will years ago.
I helped to get their attention on that case, but
it was really well done. Maybe did a story about
me once upon Time, which is really well done. Too,

(19:30):
but I was very, very humbled by that exposure. It
was so wonderful. So Devil's Quarry is based on the
article that was written by Paul Solataroff many years ago
about a case in Carmel, New York where this little

(19:50):
girl named Josette Wright was brutally assaulted and strangled and
murdered ultimately and left in the woods. And I think
she was a who's tannerb that it's horrible, horrible crime.
And two guys ended up promptly convicted in that case,
Anthony DiPippo and Andrew Kreevac. Andrew serve twenty four years,

(20:10):
Anthony served twenty they'd both been exonerated. I think that
everybody knew from the get go that they were innocent,
but it didn't matter. It was a high profile case.
They needed arrests, and somehow or other, the authorities ignored
it's probably too kind of a word, you know, the
person who would have been the obvious suspect. And so

(20:33):
this is a deep dive into that case that is
done by Paul, the original writer, who is so brilliant,
and I think it's going to really shake people up
because it's a different side of things right, because I
talk and I know Robbie, you and I have talked
about this before. You know, when when the system conspires

(20:56):
to put innocent people in prisons Andrew and Anthony in
this case, but in any of the cases, odd non whoever,
but almost by definition, they're allowing the guilty person or
people to remain free. And so you know, in cases,
the more extreme and more horrible and more violent the
case is, the more dangerous that is to everyone else.

(21:19):
And we've been covering cases like this for so many years.
Michael Morton. It goes back to him right in Texas
where the cops ignored the obvious suspect who then went
on and beat another woman to death in her home, Samemo,
you know the two towns away, you know, in the
ensuing weeks, and how would it feel to be her
family when you find out that they could have, should

(21:41):
have and maybe even did know who the actual guy was,
but ignored him because the grieving husband who found his
wife beaten the death happened to be the easier target,
you know.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, yeah, Well when is the Devil's corey air?

Speaker 3 (21:58):
Oh Devil's quarry is jeez? I just posted it on
my Instagram, which, by the way, is at it's Jason Flamm.
I'm so bad. So there was another Jason Flam who
got to Instagram before I did. I've gotten to know him,
by the way. He's a school teacher and tell her.
I think June tenth is the Devil's Quarry and I'm
so excited for everybody to hear it. I think it's

(22:20):
really beautifully done and it's also it's powerful, it's traveling,
and it should get everybody up in arms because it's
it's really a just a super poignant example of how
our system goes wrong, is wrong, does wrong, and we
all suffer.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah. Well, I'm excited to listen to that and that'll
be a great summer listen along with undisclosed new new
season which is also around the corner.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
You mentioned the new season of Bone Valley coming, and
of course Bone Valley hoisted initially by Gilbert King, all
started with the Leo Scofield case and then, as listeners know,
Leo had a cellmate, Kevin Herrick, who also has a
strong innocence claim and Jason Sheer point about ignoring the
actual perpetrator an actual license plate in the file that

(23:26):
linked to a sex Offendron done some pro bonal work
helping out in that case. And so I wonder, Jason,
going back all the way to the start of season
one in this Bone Valley podcast, how did this case
of Leos Scofield come tory attention and how did this
whole Bone Valley franchise start.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
I'm so glad you raised that for a number of reasons, Colin.
One is because isn't it profound when you think about
the fact that two innocent guys were cellmates, different climes,
both of them served you know, Leo served thirty six years.
I think Kevin's been in for that now, Like, that's
not a coincidence, It's a fucking epidemic, right, and there

(24:06):
are innocent people all over this country sitting in prison
cells right now while we're having this conversation. I think
the numbers around two hundred thousand. Some people think it's
as few as one hundred thousand. That's still a big
freaking number, right when you consider that. So that's one reason.
The other is Bone Valley season one. Well, first of all,

(24:27):
how it started was Gilbert King, who is you know,
somebody I admire I have long admired. He won the
Pool Serprize for his book Devil and the Grove that
led to the posthumous exoneration of four black teenage boys
who were executed by the State of Florida in the
most grotesque proceedings imaginable. So Gilbert approached me when he

(24:48):
had found this case of Leo Schofield and asked me
if i'd be willing to do a podcast, and I
was like, with you, boss, hell yeah. I didn't even
have to ask too many details. And so that's how
it started. And what I love about Bone Valley is
one of those podcasts because I'm like a podcast snob,
right if it, Like we say in the music industry,
you get to the chorus and don't bore us. So

(25:10):
in Bone Valley the first sixty seconds and you're like,
oh boy, this is gonna be nutty.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
You've been around the system for a long time. Could
you ever imagine the day where you'd sit at a
table with a microphone and vouch for a man who
says he's not guilty.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
No.

Speaker 5 (25:30):
In fact, I've stated many times I'm probably way over
my skis right now.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Technically I'm not supposed to be doing this.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
But it's like If I don't do it, who the
fuck's gonna do it.

Speaker 5 (25:45):
This is Judge Scott Cupp. He isn't supposed to make
any public comments on pending cases at all. Florida's Code
of Judicial Conduct prohibits it. And yet that's exactly what
he's doing to me, a writer. This It could cost
him not only a seat on the twentieth Circuit Court,
he could even be disbarred.

Speaker 6 (26:06):
I can't.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
I just can't let it go.

Speaker 5 (26:11):
The first time I met Judge Scott Cupp was in
twenty eighteen, when I was invited to speak at a
conference about my book, Devil in the Grove. It's a
story of four young black men in central Florida who
were wrongly accused of raping a white woman in nineteen
forty nine. A young Thurgood Marshall represented them at trial,
decades before he became the first black justice on the

(26:32):
US Supreme Court. I spent five years investigating this story,
and when Devil in the Grove won the Pulitzer Prize
in twenty thirteen, it brought renewed attention, outrage, and even
political action to the case. In late twenty twenty one,
I was in the courtroom when the state of Florida
formally dismissed all charges against the young men known as

(26:53):
the Groveland Four, their families patiently waited for full exonerations,
and after seventy two years, they finally had justice.

Speaker 7 (27:04):
If you know something that's right, stand up for it
the persistent and stand back footed on God's promises. Let
him work his plate. I don't care if it takes
seventy two years, it might take eighties.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
He did it for me, and he a do.

Speaker 7 (27:24):
It for you.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
It's like a freaking onion and you keep peeling it
and it keeps getting worse and more rotten and more rotten.
You're like, oh no, they're no further down this can go.
And then it goes. It goes down.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
It's worse.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Yeah, it gets worse, and the good news is that
it's had the impact that we hope for almost there's
still work to be done, even though on our show
the actual killer confesses in details that only he could
know and there's physical evidence to back it up up,

(28:00):
like his physical evidence was all over the scene where
poor Michelle was was butchered, and so yeah, that's uh,
that's Bone Valley. And if you haven't heard it yet,
it's time. Listen to that, listen to it strong recommend. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
No, we we've talked about Bone Valley many many times
with the show Believe. Yeah, yeah, I know it's yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
I think the fifth season is really gonna and everybody
take your phone now, unless you're on your phone or
if you're driving. But other than that, you can I
think you can preview Bone Valley season five Devil's Quarry
now and you can probably pre order it or whatever
hell you got to do with a dance subscribe, subscribe,
I can't even speak today.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Like and subscribe. Yeah. Another one of your shows that
I think would be really relevant to our audience is
the Junk Science Show, which all stupid. I mean, like
we are obsessed with junk science around here, and I
mean like it's like four hundred episodes deep, and it
attacks like all kinds of junk science. It's been used
over you know, like the last hundred years to convict
people and so much of that. I mean, I don't

(29:02):
know how involved you are like in this different shows.
Are you involved, like let's say with this particular show,
like are you like taking a look at like who's
going to be coming on what are the issues are
we presented are on top of all of that. That's
a lot to do.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, we have a team, of course, and we all
pitch in however in whatever ways are needed. Junk Science
is a show I'm really proud of and I'm glad
you raised it because it's so important and what we
did on junk Science is and it was four hundred
episodes in don't worry, there's not four hundred episodes. You
have to listen to that.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, that's that's true right now.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
But there are a fair number of episodes and each
one very I think masterfully delves into a different junk science.
So we covered, you know, arson bitemark evidence, blood spatter,

(29:56):
We covered bootprint analysis, tool mark analo sis. We covered
shaking baby syndrome, one of the ones I am most
you know, passionate about.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
And Colin as well. Yeah, Colin does a lot of
work on shaking baby syndrome.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
Yeah. Yeah, fuck of shaking baby syndrome diagnosis, because that
is just it's so insidious, because what it does to families,
grieving families, Yeah, and just makes everything worse, like so
many other aspects of our criminal legal system. But what
I would say to the listeners of viewers now, is
just that there's never been a documented case of a
baby being shaken to death or to you know, extreme duress.

(30:34):
There's never been a video, there's never been somebody witness it.
And that's because it's never happened. I might say that,
I mean, has anyone ever shaken a baby? Sure, but
you know it's not a natural thing. As a lay person,
I'm not a scientist. I don't have to be. I'm
a logical person, and I think everyone can probably relate
to this, I hope. So I think about it in

(30:55):
the terms of when we as humans get really really
at a person or a thing, our natural instinct is
to hit it, kick it, or throw it, probably in
that order. Right. What we don't normally do is shake
things out of anger. Not impossible has been done, does happen,

(31:16):
but in general that's what we do now. Furthermore, when
you think about shaking a baby, who is call it
you know, fifteen pounds or something, ten pounds, sometimes bigger,
forty pounds. I mean, there's a four year old. We
have a case in California. How much the four year
old it was not a little bit, but so how

(31:39):
strong would you have to be to hold a baby
at arm's length who's presumably agitated and squiggling and moving around,
and now you're gonna have to hold them. So do
this like at home, Like put your arms out and
try to imagine you have a weight that heavy, that's
not it's you know, it's something again that's in motion,

(31:59):
which makes you even more dynamic. Right, and now you've
got to shake it so hard that you rattle its
brain meanwhile, not damaging its ribs, right, which you think
about that, how tight would you have to squeeze that individual,
that that child toddler in order not to drop it
when you're shaking it? Right, And kids that age their

(32:21):
ribs are very you know, they're not hard to you know,
like ours. So in these cases, case after case that
we see, as you guys know, the neck isn't broken either. Sorry,
it's gross to talk about it, but it is what
it is. But so what I think I think neurology
and science have advanced to the point, Well, first of all,

(32:43):
now we've identified at least eighty two other causes, other
things that could cause what they call the triad of
symptoms bleeding in the brain and stuff like that the hemorrhaging,
et cetera, et cetera, but they somehow or other, The
default in the criminal legal sit is always just a
kid must have been shaken, when now we know the
same symptoms could come from justice. What looks like an

(33:05):
innocent fall or a roll out of a bed, even
a low bed, right, just like how you know adults,
you know, some people fall on the street, right and
they just dust himself off and get up. They trip
over something whatever it is, and other people fall, hit
their head and die.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, And this is of course the Robert Roberson case
in Texas. So the man on death row who is
convicted on what everyone pretty much believes now, including representators
on both sides of the aisle, was junk signs of
a shaking baby syndrome diagnosis.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I visited Robert on
death row in Texas, and he is such a beautiful soul.
He's still got this sort of almost childlike demeanor you
know about him. He's still got a light in his
eyes that is just, you know, sort of it's incredible

(33:58):
considering what he's been through, not just the loss of
a child, but then being evicted it sentenced to death,
and I'm so glad you brought him up because his case.
You're absolutely right, it's a it's almost like the poster child,
for lack of a better word, for this disastrous, you know,
practice that we have in this country of just defaulting
to the baby must have been shaken and that's why

(34:21):
whatever happened to it happened. And you know what I mean, Look,
we have a whole cottage industry called child abuse pediatricians. Like,
wait minute, that's in your name, So your job is
to diagnose child abuse and pretty much that's how it is. Yeah,
so it's a scary time.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
I mean, what's super frustrating about this, and I've talked
about this numerous times, is the fact that, like the
general public seems to be caught up on the fact
that a lot of this science that has junk science
that has convicted people it's all bullshit. I mean, like,
you know, Obama had the task force that also gave
its recommendations, and so like you have official government agencies

(35:21):
where like we can't, but people are still behind bars
and serving life sentences and sometimes death sentence is based
on something like hair microscopy evidence and nothing else or
like you said, the footwear comparison. The frustration is that
the needle is not only not moving on cases that
a bit adjudicated, I don't think it's really moving that

(35:42):
much on cases that are being adjudicated today. Like this
stuff still has to be litigate it over and over
in every single case that the state wants to use
any of the science, and then you've got to convince
a judge to like, you know, exclude it.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Robbie, I'm so glad you referenced that because the hair analysis,
you know, there was a landmark by was National cinem
of Science, the Innacist Project, the Justice Department maybe FBI
came four agencies in mind, and they studied three hundred
and ninety six cases during I think it was that
I think that's the right number, actually a visital memory,

(36:15):
but in which hair analysis was the main factor in
the conviction of the person who was accused of the crime.
And they found that I think in ninety six percent
of them, the FBI analyst had either been mistaken or lied,
and these lies or mistakes had, you know, horrific consequences.

(36:43):
You know, when you have an FBI expert get up
on the stand and say, well, it's obviously Collins hair.
It's like a million, billion, trillion to one odds that
it could have been anybody else. And some of these
cases it turned out to be cat hair, you know,
or you know, a dog hair, or not hair at all,
or somebody else's hair. And like they're just up there

(37:05):
making up these statistics that aren't based in any you know,
and there's a whole science behind it. You listen to
the episode of Junk Science and you'll learn more.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Episode it's.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
And I'll be very pertinent to our upcoming season.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
This one.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
It is a faulty hair analysis from nineteen seventy two
to nineteen ninety ninety.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
And by the way, the one thing I found most
I think surprising in Junk Science the episode I found
most surprising. You guys want to guess because he even
shocked me.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Okay, printing so unscientific and a judgment called by a
finger printing examiner.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah, so the fingerprint episode. What I thought was so
stunning about that because up until I I have to admit,
up until I heard our own episode, I kind of
thought fingerprints were totally reliable. I thought that was one
of the only ones that was right. But the incredible
one of the incredible things in the Fingerprint episode is

(38:05):
that they talk about the case of the guy who
was accused of the Madrid train bombings. Right, So, in
the nineties, it was a horrific series of attacks on
I think eight different trains a particular day, like one
hundred and ninety people killed. There were bombs left in
these trains. Horrible, horrible thing. And so naturally is a
worldwide man hunt, like the biggest man hunt you know,

(38:28):
I mean you can imagine, right, And so they had
a partial fingerprint I think left on something that was
attributed to the one of the perpetrators in or maybe
it was one perpetrator. I think one guy did all that,
but who knows. And so the FBI got a hit
and they announced that this guy he was a lawyer
who lived in Oregon, but he had also recently converted

(38:52):
to the Muslim religion. And so it was like, oh, perfect,
he's already must be him because and so there was
one problem. Colin knows the problem. The problem was he
didn't have a passport and he had never been to
Spain or left the country. I don't think I think
he ever left the United States, or at least not
in the last many, many many years. But the FBI

(39:15):
was like, nope, we had our three top guys analyze this.
It's definitely him. And finally the Spanish authorities were like,
how about this, you guys fuck off while we go
and try to find who actually did this, because obviously
he ain't that guy. And so where my mind goes
with this is imagine if that had been an American case. Yeah,

(39:38):
he would have one hundred thousand percent been convicted and
sentenced to death. Yeah, because it would have been a
federal case. I imagine he would have been sentence to death.
So you know, he was I guess you could say
he was lucky if you could be lucky in such
a circumstance. By the way, I'm on my way to

(40:09):
the studio to go record with Michelle Murphy today. You know,
we're launching Wrongful Conviction on YouTube in the next few weeks.
It's been on YouTube, but it's been more of a
static thing. Now it's going to be a fully you know,
dynamic set and really visually I think compelling. And I'm
so happy that Michelle is coming to be featured on

(40:31):
the show because Michelle was still the only female DNA
x hoonnery from the state of Oklahoma. She was wrongfully
convicted of the murder of her fifteen week old son, Yeah, Travis.
And it's a case that I think haunts me and
so many And she did twenty years of a life
without parole sentence starting when she was seventeen years old,

(40:53):
and just went through a type of hell that I
hope nobody ever experiences again. And she's just such a
beautiful person, such a kind soul. How long was she
incarcerated exactly twenty years. Ironically she walked out twenty years
to the day. Just coincidental that she walked out twenty
years to the day that she went in. But she

(41:14):
had a natural life sentence, no possibly parrolee. That was
an instance fute your case, and they were able to
free her with DNA. And you know, I think her
case is super compelling as well, because from day one,
even the judge like, get this. I don't know if
you guys know this aspect of it. But in a

(41:35):
hearing the judge calls the attorneys into his chambers. There
was one witness who claimed to have been It was
a kid from the neighborhood. It was fourteen or fifteen
who was known for committing horrific acts of violence against
animals and others. Right, And he claimed that he was

(41:57):
looking in her window at three in the morning or
something that saw her do this kid was decapitated for prostakes,
right and so, and she woke up with a big
lump on her head and another swelling in her leg.
And he had obviously attacked her, knocked her out, and
then taken the kid and killed him in the kitchen.
And the judge in the original hearing, one of the hearings,

(42:17):
as I understand it, called the attorneys and the prosecutors
everybody into his chambers and said, why doesn't that kid
have an attorney? And one of the prosecutors said, well,
because he's not a suspect, your honor, he's a witness.
And the judge said, are you the only person here
that doesn't know that he's the actual killer?

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (42:35):
Are you kidding me? Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
But for reasons I'll never understand, the judge allowed the
proceedings to proceed, and then that kid, you ready for this?
He was never called to testify. Where had he been
called to testify? On cross they would have found out
that not only were there people who were going to
say that he had decapitated animals, that also he had
gone to school the next day and said I told

(42:59):
you that bitch was in a pay And there was
a school counselor who was prepared apparently to testify and
say that he responded to rejection with violence and Michelle
had rejected him his advances. So the reason he couldn't
testify was because he self asphyxiated before the trial.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Oh oh, so, okay, okay. I was wondering because if
he had still been around, I'm sure he would have
had a very lengthy rap sheet by now and probably
gotten picked up for something like committing a lot more violence.
And she was only she was only seventeenth at the
time as well, she was a child as well. There
was just so many layers in this story where you know,
she was questioned without parental consent or presence and all

(43:40):
these things legal. Yeah, yeah, igal so. But Michelle, I
think has been on your show before, right, so you're
having her on again or she is she going to
be a co host or something now, No, she was.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
On the audio version of the podcast. She was episode
like forty three or something many years ago, okay, you know,
and we've been super close ever since. She calls me uncle,
I call her niece. She stays with my wife and I.
We love having her around. She's just a light and
so we're just really happy to have her in our lives.
But now we're doing an updated version with the video,

(44:13):
with the full video resentation, and obviously many things have
changed since I interviewed her nine years ago or whatever
it was, and I think her story is more relevant
now than ever.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
And Jason, in terms of both the audio version of
your podcast and the new YouTube version, you've probably interviewed
more exoneries than almost anyone, if not anyone, in the world.
And I wonder what have you found surprising on this
end of it versus coming in about the disposition, the demeanor,

(44:43):
the feeling of these exonerateiaes after all these years of
wrongful conviction.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
I wonder if there's a Guinness Book of Records category.
I'm not going to submit myself, but if you want
to submit me, you can. That's not why I did it.
I think what's surprise to me, and I touched on
this before, is that almost to a person these individuals

(45:09):
are people who have been through hell, through no fault
of their own, and come out carrying buckets of water
for the people they left behind. Just like Leo wants
to go and advocate for Kevin Herrick, right, that's his
life's purpose. Lorenzo Johnson has been since he came home,
and he's did twenty two years. Romphy convicted twice in Pennsylvania,
battled every type of horrible disease since he came home,

(45:32):
lost a child. I mean, he's been through hell and
all he wants to do is help other guys that
are still in for crimes that he knows they didn't commit.
Tysian Crocker is one that we're working on together, one
of them that work on together now. So it really
always puts gratitude in my attitude just being around these

(45:53):
incredible humans who have suffered in ways that I think
none of us can possibly have understand, even someone like
me who's around them and this all the time, there's
no way to I mean, and I wonder about that sometimes,
and I've developed the theory. Actually, I think that one
of the reasons why the overwhelming majority of these people

(46:17):
are so not just heroic but so humble and so
gracious and so Nicky. Arris is a great example, right,
there's a show about nick on Broadway now called The
Fear of Thirteen with Adrian Brody. He's the only person
other than Rihanna who's alive and has a show about
them on Broadway right now, besides the one he's just
he's that guy, right, he's just so. He practices neuroplasticity healing. Yes,

(46:42):
so after do it twenty two years on death row.
And I think one of the reasons why since a
huge percentage of them come home in a state of
grace that is so incredibly you know, just humbling and
mystifying almost, is because there's a preselection, right, I think
there's a un Fortunately, there's a significant number of people

(47:02):
who are innocent in prison who give up.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
No.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Tysian Crocker's case is one of those where his co
defendant has given up. Yeah, he's just as innocent as Taisheen,
but he gave up. He's like, I'm tired of fighting.
You know, a tee for a phase case, which is,
if you're gonna listen to one episode of wrongful conviction,
listen to a tee for a phase case wild Yeah,
t for Fey, wrongful, convicted of murder. His entire family
was a Cornell freshman, had no mental problems, no reason

(47:28):
to suspect him whatsoever, no physical evidence, his whole family
beaten to death with a baseball bat, and they convict
him and his friend. And his friend unfortunately, was so
brutalized in prison that he's effectively non compassmentus, just as
innocent as the teeth.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Oh my god, I didn't know that that happened to him.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, we'll never know his story or if he comes
home at all, I will, it will certainly, even though
he's not able to advocate for himself. We're hoping that
when we get a teeth out, or when we get Taishima,
we'll be able to go back and get you know,
their co defendants out as well. So yeah, I think
the names we never hear about are the ones who
in prison suffer so badly, whether they mentally just break down,

(48:08):
which is understandable, or they succumb to drugs or violence
or whatever it is. So the people that come out
are people who while they were in found this other gear,
this thing that's just so you know, this victor Frankel,
whatever you want to call it. This, You know, Eliot
are totally like something where they just are able to

(48:30):
transcend these horrific circumstances that they find themselves in through
no faulted their own.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah. I agree, because I've seen that in all of
our defendants is like this incredible grace And I mean
most of them have been in there for decades, so
they have learned to create lives there. And I remember
when Cyria blew up a lot of folks and as
they were trying to evaluate did the non do it
or not do it? I remember seeing online people saying
if I was wrongfully convicted, I would be so angry.

(48:56):
He's not even angry. That means he actually did it.
And I'm like, none of them it's like that. Yeah, yeah, Look, Jason,
your work is extraordinary and I and I think what
makes it so is that you are so authentically connected
to each one of these stories, Like you know the people,
you know their lives, they are in your life, you
go and visit them. I don't even know how I

(49:16):
have the bandwidth emotionally to carry all of this, and
I think that's what comes through in your work over
and over again before we wrap up, I wanted to
ask you, I know, Bone Valley, new seasons coming out, anything,
any other projects you want our listeners to keep an
eye out for on the horizon.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Rather than look at the horizon, I would just look
in our feet. We have a show called The Race
that I really love and it's different, right, It's actually
fun because it's the first murder trial in American history.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
It's great, it's so great.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
Yeah. And the defense team was Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr,
and they lied and cheated and did all of terrible
things to get their guilty client, you know, fred and
acquitted and so it's a it's a really fun thing
listen to. It stars Allison Williams as the best friend
of the murder victim. Tony Goldwin is Hamilton, Barry Scheck

(50:06):
is Aaron Burr, and I play Judge John Lansing. So
I get to say overruled a lot and bang my
fist on the thing.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
And I believe it is produced by your daughter, right,
Is that really it was?

Speaker 3 (50:17):
It was. That's awesome. So check out e Race. Great.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Thank you so much, Jason, thank you for joining us.
I know you've got to get to another meeting. We
will tag folks let them know where you are on
social media. We will share your YouTube channel and thank
you again. It's wonderful having you on. You're a great
friend of the show and thanks for all your work.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
Thank you, Thanks Robby, Thanks Collin Bbye you guys.

Speaker 6 (50:40):
Hey Undisclosed listeners, It's Methel, executive producer of Undisclosed Toward Justice.
Before I roll through their credits, I've got a few
quick notes. By now, most of you probably know about
our Facebook community group. If you haven't joined yet, please
go to Facebook dot com slash groups slash toward Justice
and answer threesome questions and you're in. But seriously answer

(51:02):
the questions because a bunch of you are still pending
since you've only answered one or two. They're easy questions,
I promise. In addition to engaging with us through the
Facebook group, you can also leave us a voice note
at speakpipe dot com slash Undisclosed. We always check the messages,
and so far I think we've answered all of them.
We also have a Patreon page with three different tiers
of perks, the closet one just being a dollar, which

(51:24):
allows us to continue to do this work. Other tiers
include bonus episodes, early access to merch, and even joining
Robbia in a live true crime zoom discussion. Just go
to patreon dot com slash Undisclosed Pod now onto the
real credits. A huge shout out to Hannah McCarthy for
audio production. Thank you to Patrick Cortes and Bramero Marquez

(51:47):
for our theme music. For anyone new here, you can
engage with us online by going to Instagram or Facebook
at Undisclosed Podcast. We're also on TikTok, YouTube and X
at Undisclosed Pod. Whether you're a new or returning listener,
you can always check out our previous cases and bonus
episodes by going to our website at Undisclosed pod dot com.

(52:09):
If you would like to follow Colin and Robbia on
social media, you can find Robbia at Robbia squared two
on Instagram and Colin at evidenceprof on Instagram, X and
Blue Sky. Thank you all for your continued support and
for supporting all of our sponsors. Until next time,