June 4, 2026 • 56 mins
On March 18, 1997, two men exited a minivan and walked into the lobby of a bank in St. Louis, MO wearing ski masks and armed with semi-automatic rifles. Shots were fired and a security guard, Richard Heflin, was shot and fatally wounded. Billie Allen, aged 19, was arrested at about 2am the next morning and taken to police headquarters where he remained in an interrogation room, handcuffed to a table, for the next several hours. Later that morning, he was positively identified in a line-up by two forestry workers who had come across an individual in the woods. According to the police, after being told of these identifications, Billie Allen said he wanted to discuss the robbery, recanted his request for a lawyer and made statements incriminating himself in the murder. Billie Allen was charged with committing an armed bank robbery and using a firearm to commit a crime of violence. He was convicted on both counts and sentenced to death.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, it's Connor Hall, the senior producer for Wrongful Conviction
here with more updates and behind the scenes insights. Today
we're talking about pardon powers now. At the end of
every presidency governorship, there's usually some number of pardons and commutations.
Recently a notable one was Leonard Peltier, who got the
(00:25):
news just minutes before the end of the Biden administration.
But why not day one? I guess the smart money
is on the fact that so many Americans still believe
in the infallibility of our legal system and that a
guilty verdict delivered by it is unshakable. I mean that
appears to be the foundation of its power. In Leonard's case,
(00:45):
I believe they made him part of an FBI training
module as some kind of boogeyman for new FBI agents,
So of course agents showed up in mass to derail
his pardon efforts at the end of the Clinton administration. Generally,
pardons and the like are perceived as having some sort
of soft spot for alleged violent psychopaths, rather than as
(01:08):
a critical failsafe for when the system gets it wrong,
which our audience knows that happens not only frequently, but
at times it appears to be on purpose, as does
the maintenance of those convictions through the appeals process. So
our hope is that with greater awareness of this system,
it's flawed human operators, and its perverse incentives like providing
(01:33):
slave labor to American economic might, that a political will
might amass to give our elected officials the courage to
use their pardon powers more often and throughout their terms,
feeling instead that they're not spending political capital just to
do the right thing, especially in actual innocence cases and
in the most crucial scenarios involving capital punishment. Now we've
(01:58):
covered plenty of state DEATHBA cases, most notably Ohio Governor
Dwine please do something, But I digress. On federal death row,
we've only covered one, and that's Billy Allen. Now, other
than three federal executions during the Bush administration, there hadn't
(02:18):
been any before that since nineteen sixty three, and then
not again until a thirteen execution spree starting in July
twenty twenty under President Trump, who ironically now uses his
pardon power pretty loosely. But I digress again. After the
thirteen executions in twenty twenty, he later campaigned on the
(02:40):
intention to execute the remaining forty death row inmates if
re elected, so with the incoming second term, there was
a sense of urgency around what folks, including Pope Francis,
had been lobbying Biden for since twenty twenty one, and
just two days before Christmas twenty twenty four, President Biden
(03:00):
finally listened, commuting the sentences of thirty seven out of
forty of those on death row to life, including Billy Allen.
The three that remain are two mass shooters caught at
their scenes, and the alleged Boston Marathon bomber. Brian Stevenson
was quoted about it, saying, the death penalty is a torturous, flawed, expensive,
(03:24):
and ever filled practice that must be abolished. I commend
President Biden for this historic act and hope that governors
and state executives follow the President's lead. At a time
when many of our courts are abandoning their role to
ensure fairness and reliability in criminal cases, leadership by elected
(03:46):
officials will be more critical than ever end quote. So
I'm grateful that Billy and others, some of whom may
also be innocent, that they won't feel the terror they'd
felt during that spree in late twenty twenty. But I'm
also resentful that, when considering innocence cases like Billy's, that
(04:07):
our elected officials are not more courageous with their pardon powers,
considering the obstinates we often see from judges, as well
as district attorneys and attorneys general, who sometimes use conviction
integrity units, not as they are seemingly intended to find
truth and justice and right the wrongs, but to hide
(04:28):
the misconduct of their offices past. You know, in a
conversation recently, a respected attorney commented to me that these
integrity units have become the place where innocence cases go
to die. So stay vigilant, everybody, especially with your alleged
progressive prosecutors. Now, I'd like you all to consider this
(04:52):
as you listen to Billy Allen's story. When a wrongful
conviction is maintained and a prosecutor knowingly continues to pursue
their bondage, a judge refuses to grant relief to an
innocent person, how is that not violence? And how is
(05:14):
the silence or inaction of a governor or president not
almost the same damn thing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
On March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, two armed and masked
men robbed a bank in Saint Louis, Missouri, and batally
shot a security guard named Richard Heflin in the process
as part of their plan to destroy evidence innovate capture.
They had pre soaked the getaway van with gasoline, but
before they got to switch from the van to a
second getaway vehicle, the van caught fire. One assailant, Norris Holder,
(05:49):
was arrested at the scene, but the second assailant escape
that was described as a black man about five nine
with singed hair and an injured right hand. Norris Holder
told investigators that the escapee was named John, but later
changed that name to Bill. Police arrested an acquaintance of
Holders named Billy Allen. Other than being black, Billy did
(06:13):
not match the initial descriptions, but curiously was somehow identified
by four witnesses, including Holder. Imagine being selected for this
jury and hearing investigators tested by about an alleged confession,
as well as that four witnesses, including the only other assailant,
identify Billy Allen. You might feel pretty confident in your verdict.
(06:34):
Yet here we are, almost a quarter century later to
publicly reveal for the very first time case breaking exculpatory
evidence from the state's own files that was ignored by
both the prosecution and the defense. Did I mentioned they
send them to death? This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back
(07:06):
to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're going to do something I
don't think we've ever done before, which is that we're
covering a federal death penalty case. And we're honored. I'm
honored to have Professor Mark Howard, leader of the Making
an exaner reprogram at Georgetown. So Mark, welcome back to
(07:27):
Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Great to be back, Jason, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
And with Mark is his distinguished co professor who has
also been on the podcast before more than once for
the right and the wrong reasons. Marty Tankliff was wrongfully
convicted himself and served seventeen years when Marty was wrongfully
convicted of murdering his parents, and of course he's been
(07:52):
exonerated and we've become great friends. And he also is
Mark's childhood friend and the professor now at Georgetown of
the Making an Exanery program. So Marty tankleff es Choir,
Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, you know the fact
(08:12):
that we're all here today is a beautiful thing, but
it's also an extremely troubling thing because we're here today
to talk about Billy Allen, who has been on death
row in the federal system for a quarter of a
century now, since he was nineteen years old.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I appreciate you, you know, you all taking an interest in
my story and wanting to tell it.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Well, Billy, yours is a story that definitely needs to
be told, so welcome to the show. But before we
get into all the details, i'd love to hear about
your life before this horrible scenario took place.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
You know, I grew up in a house with three
sisters on the north side of Saint Louis, which was
I guess you can say, flooded with drugs, a lot
of violence and stuff like that. Even though I lived
in the underprivileged neighborhood, I went to school in a
privileged neighborhood. Clayton, Missouri, is considered probably one of the
wealthiest places in Missouri. You know, no matter if I
(09:08):
go out to the clay School district and I'm around
rich people, I still have to deal with my surroundings
when I come home. You're like where do I fit
in in things?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It sounds like you had a foothold in these two
sort of opposite worlds of haves and have nots, which
sounds like you could be pretty confusing. So after you
graduated high school and leading up to March of ninety seven,
what were you up.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
To, to be honest with people, You know, I was
hustling at the time. You know, I wasn't a big
drug dealer or anything like that. I was just hustling
at the time. But at the same time, I was
trying to find my way at the time, and that's
why I met the you know, the girl I ended
up with who I was going to move in with,
you know, because basically I was going to get a job,
stop selling drugs and just I guess you could say,
start my growth. Not only for her, but she had
(09:52):
a daughter, so I was trying to be better for
all of them.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So you were at a crossroads, and it sounds like
you were choosing a more promising path. But your connection
the old neighborhood happened to bring you into contact with
one of the actual bank robbers in this case, Norris Holder.
You had met him through job corps once and then
had a chance encounter with him years later. Apparently you
had sold him some weed once or vice versa, and
(10:16):
it was this chance meeting and short lived hang out
just a few days before Holder committed this crime that
even put you into the realm of possibilities. I mean,
how well did you even know this Holder guy?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Well, I didn't know Holder per se. I guess you
can say the way they tried to, you know, sell
the story to my jury. When I was at a
club one day older, I knew one of his friends
he was with, you know, just from my neighborhood, and
so you know, we ended up just talking. So he's like, hey, look,
you know, let's look up one day just being cordial
with people. Plus up, Like I said, I knew the
guy he was with. Then a few days you know later,
(10:49):
I get a call from him, you know, basically like
hey man, you know, I'm going to go to the
mall and you know, I got some weed, and I'm like, okay,
well I'm in now. But for them to make it
seem like we were friends, we were food in this
crime or anything like that, how can you say that
I would involve myself in a crime of this magnitude
with somebody I didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Right, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot
of sense until you consider the investigators in this case,
one of whom Joseph Nickerson is on the Saint Louis
DA's do not testify list, which is, by the way,
exactly what it sounds like. He's not allowed to testify
in cases because he lies so much. He's the detective,
by the way, from another egregious wrongful convictioning case out
(11:31):
of Saint Louis, Lamar Johnson. In Lamar's case, Nickerson fabricated
a narrative from alleged witness statements, but these witnesses later
denied saying any of the things Nickerson had attributed to them.
He perjured himself to make Lamar's culpability even plausible. And
then there's a cash incentivized eyewitness who was convinced that
the mass gunman in this case was Lamar Johnson, so
(11:53):
he went along with the ID which you'll see in
it a bit sounds eerily similar to what happened in
this case. Now. I believe his partner, a guy named Carol,
is actually doing time now for assaulting someone who was
in custody. So it's patterns like these that give a
helpful context to what happened in Billy's case. So let's
(12:13):
get to that. The morning of March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
where were you actually that paidful morning?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I had left the house early that morning, like at
eight o'clock in the morning. They claimed that I had
called holder and told them let's get ready for the
crime and all this stuff from the house. But how
can I call you from the house when I'm already gone,
you know. So I get to the mall early in
the morning, and my first stop is to the hat Zone.
So I went to foot Locker, and I went to
another story foot quarters, and right after that, I went
(12:43):
to Famous and Barb, which is a clothing store. I
went to this tuxedo place. And so as I'm shopping, basically,
I see Chris Hiagog. Now Chris Kigog is a security
guard who was after the mall to pick up his paycheck.
He was like, Hey, I'm just going to pick up
my check and I plan to go to another mall
to do some and stuff like that. So I'm like, well,
can I ride with you? I was like, look, I
(13:04):
just got to drop a few items off a girl
I was dating, and so he was like okay. So
he went to pick up his check and we left
the mall and I dropped off a few items for
her baby and basically gave her some money because we
were moving in together, and left.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So you've been out of the house since eight am.
At the mall where you visited, several stores made several
points of contact, and there was also surveillance footage. So
all the great alibi evidence that places you away from
the scene at the time of the crime, none of
it was investigated or later presented on your behalf. So
while you were shopping across town, there was this bank
(13:41):
robbery going on at the Lindell Bank and Trust, which
is caddy corner from this huge park in Saint Louis
that houses the Saint Louis Zoo, several museums, landmarks, on
golf course, this skating rink, and this area is known
as Forest Park. Again. This is March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
around ten thirty five am, when two masked and armed
men busted down the door and told everybody to get
(14:01):
on the ground.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
There were two bank robbers who stole fifty thousand dollars,
and a security guard named Richard Heflin was killed in
the process of that robbery. And then the two men
left the scene in a getaway van, drove to Forest Park,
and they had a plan apparently to set the van
on fire and then get away in a different vehicle
(14:23):
that they planted there. But the van had actually been
pre soaked in gasoline and exploded and caught on fire
inside the park before sort of the full extent of
their plan and a getaway plan could work. And so the driver,
a guy named Norris Holder, was still on fire himself
(14:43):
and was pulled out of the car, and then the
second suspect ran away.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So Holder was in custody almost immediately. And I've listened
to the dispatch tapes from that morning. It sounds pretty chaotic,
but ultimately it sounds like a team of folks trying
to bring the bank robbers and ers of this bank
security guard to justice. And this is so important. Every
one of them described a blackmail about five eight to
(15:08):
five ten, wearing gray sweats and a blue and red
colored jacket, and they said he had singed hair, understandably
since a pan was on fire. And an injured right hand.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
They never described the person with a beard, and I
had a beard at the time, So if I was
the person who walked up to you and asked you
for directions, wouldn't that be one of the most descriptive
things you can point out about an individual.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Had it actually been you, they would have mentioned a beard,
right That's a pretty big detail for everybody to leave out,
But they did not say that. They also would have
said over six two instead of around five to nine.
Big difference there. And when you were eventually picked up,
your right hand was not injured and your hair was
not burned in any way. So if you listen to
(15:52):
all of the dispatch tapes as we did, the story
remains the same. In the immediate aftermath, the assailant came
over a hill from the direction of the burning van.
He went toward the fence line and allegedly told them
that his van caught fire and he needed to get
to the metro link.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Both park workers, you know, when they first came forward,
they claimed that all they did was gave him directions
to the metro link. The thing about it is, when
we get the trial, both park workers change their story.
They claim they gave the person a ride outside of
the park. Do you know I have their actual recordings? Well,
police officer is standing right with them, calling in the
(16:28):
dispatch the.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
Forestry division supervisor. They honestry workers all the second subject,
he was running east from the burning van by a
construction trailer. That's about two hundred yards east down. They're
heading right over here by the sense line. There's a
hole in the fence.
Speaker 6 (16:46):
Find out one or two. That exactly why we too,
cap with the calling. They don't call you the best,
take our car relt it to the bank. Robbery subjects
with glad playing calling under a fat growth in the
collect way, the black man having on a flatpath, they
had on a multi colored traffic.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The park workers just told them that they gave the
person directions. Right.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
These park workers, along with everyone else at this point,
were just feeding in whatever they could to help nab
this guy. No other agenda. They pointed him in the
right direction and he left got away. Whatever threw a
hole in the fence, importantly not in someone's car. Giving
this assailant a ride outside the park would really make
for a much more credible ID, which is why we
(17:33):
believe this story changed by the time of trial, but
back to the immediate aftermath. Ultimately, the effort to close
in on the second assailant was unsuccessful, and they were
hoping to get something out of Holder.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yeah, when Holder was arrested, he says, the person with
him with some guy named John. Then they threatened him
with the definily and said, hey, look, whoever's the least
culpable is who might get lingency in this case. So
basically you need to provide us, you know, with a story,
you know, or something that can help us out or
help you out. So all of a sudden, he switches
from John and he mentions my name.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
So now he's given them something concrete, a full name,
and not just a name that feels chosen at random.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
That's the thing. He didn't even know my last name.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
He just said Bill, just Bill, that's it.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
I'll show you where Bill lives.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Now.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
The thing about the John's situation is this. Throughout their reports,
there's a person named JB who was connected to Holder.
We think JB is his cousin. I can't, you know,
I don't want to falsely accuse anybody or anything like that,
you know, but that's this is what the reports are
basically saying, it's my belief that Holder is using me
as escapego to protect somebody who was close to.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So now you had no idea what was coming your way.
Did you even know that this bank robbery had taken place?
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Well, I did see the crime, you know, on the
news when they arrested Holder, and so I'm like, okay, well,
you know I'm not involved in so it doesn't really
draw my attention to it. Next thing I know, I'm
at the apartment, you know, with the all I was
living with at the time, and I hear some banging
on the door, you know, FBI and police officers come
to my door. They arrest me, and the first thing
(19:08):
I tell them, look, you're arresting the wrong person. I
had the clothes that I had bought on the couch.
The receipts are still in the back, the clothes are
still in the back, and I'm like, look, just go
to the mall and ask to see the surveillance footage
and basically you'll see that I have an alibi at
the time the crime took place. You know, you can't
beat a video, and that they can talk to Krishagov,
(19:30):
who was a security guard at the time to find
out whether or not I was at the mall.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, but unfortunately they weren't interested in solving the case.
They were interested in fixing the facts to match the
name that they got from Norris Holder. So you were
arrested around two am. What happened next.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
When I was in the homicide office, it's two officers
that came and talked to me, Thomas Carroll and Joseph Nickerson,
and I kept repeating the same story. Now they claim
they went to the mall, yet for some reason reason,
there's no surveillance footage that can be found. I believe
they have this footage. I reported about this before the
(20:06):
Lamar Johnson case and come to find out years later
they withheld recordings in Lamar Johnson case. So it's like
a pattern down there dealing with these officers.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
A pattern that is unfortunately prevalent in Saint Louis, and
let's face it, around this whole country as are alleged
false confessions or fabricated statements, which we'll get into in
a bit. But first, what happened in that interrogation room.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I told them, look, I didn't have anything to do
with the crime. So They're like, okay, well, if you
didn't commit this crime and give us your DNA, I'm like, sure, shit,
I ain't got none to do what you can have it.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
When I was in prison, I used to always ask
guys who would say they're innocent. One of the first
quers I said, would you be one to do a
DNA test? And almost ninety nine point nine percent of
the people who are really innocent said, I will do
a DNA test. I will do any forensic tests that
I can do to prove my inn And Billy falls
(21:02):
into the category who said I want to do anything
and everything possible.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Next thing they do, they'd sailed to a van you
know that was used in the crime. Was soaked in gasoline.
You know, so if you don't have any gasoline on
your clothes, you know that can help prove that you
weren't there. So I willingly gave him my DNA and
my clothes.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I mean the fact that this entire case was covered
in gasoline, so to speak, and Billy has none on him.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
They tested the co defendant his clothes were sure enough,
every bench of them had gasoline residue on them.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
Billy had a credible alibi DNA test results came back negative.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
They left open the question whose DNA is it? And
that hasn't been pursued, hasn't been shown, but it's certainly
not Billy's.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So take take us back there, Billy to the interrogation
and id process.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Next thing I know, an FBI agent comes into the room,
Agent Jan Hartman. You know, she started reading my right.
This is the first time I was ever read my
right silent. I'm like, well, look, I want a lawyer
from the court period. I'm done talking. I don't have
anything to say. You all aren't going to believe me. So,
according to her trial testimony, she never told anybody about
my request for an attorney. So one officer comes in,
(22:12):
he conducted the lineup. I'm like, well, look, you know,
where's my attorney at And he was like, you know,
you don't need an attorney for this. I'm like, but
I asked for one. He's like, well, you can get
one afterword. So they took me to the lineup. And
now here's the crazy part about this lineup. I'm the
tallest person in the damn lineup. They have nobody close
to six' two in this. Lineup nobody who looks like
(22:34):
me in this, Lineup and to make matters, worse he
puts me in position number. THREE i am the tallest
person in this, thing And i'm beside the two shortest
people inside This so basically you're giving people the person
you want them to.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Pick not only is it, suggestive but it's also telling
about the description they had.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Exactly five, eight five. Ten and like our, lineup a
lot of people when they envision, lineups envisioning you behind
the glass and the witnesses are outside of the. Thing
The Saint louis if they have a piece of, cloth
it's like a black piece of cloth right, there so
you can. See you can actually see the damn person
who's basically identifying, you you, know and you can hear.
Them and this is just how hilarious my lineup. Was
(23:17):
this lady il. Mcgilliam you, know they were telling, her,
well can you identify the person you? Saw she picks
the person in position number. Two, now if you look
at this person in my lineup, photo this dude has
a freaking full. Beard he looks nothing like, me and
he fished the description that she gave of the person
she saw at the. Crime so NOW i hear this.
(23:39):
Guy he comes on and, say, hey, look we think
it's the guy in position number. Three can we bring him?
Forward and you look at, him she was, like are you?
Sure he's like. Yeah so they told the number two
guy go back and they take me out of the,
lineup and she was, like, YEAH i think.
Speaker 6 (23:55):
You might be.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Right. Wow if you go to my, transcripts she will
tell you she picked the guy in position number. Two
so why would you pick somebody five a full, beard
full head of, hair and yet that would a sudden
you switch your account to somebody six' to two small
beard at. The time so come to, find out, you
know in a, dispatch tape she actually is reporting that
(24:18):
she couldn't even describe the person. She saw this is
on their, Own recordings so my attorney didn't. Find it
it was never presented on my defense. Or anything but
yet this woman was allowed to pick somebody in position
number two who was clearly DIFFERENT than, i was and
then basically come to court change, her story claimed that
she never told the. Officers that and then we have
the recordings to prove that the prosecutors presented.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
False testimony and this wasn't the only time The prosecutors
no only put on false testimony in, this case nor
was it the last time that one of the quote
unquote eyewitnesses picked someone out when they had no business
doing so because they admitted not having seen, the assailant
like the guy who had followed the van from the
bank to, The Park.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
William Green william green walked in. The ROOM like, i
said you can clearly hear what the person is, telling them,
you know talking to. The witnesses he comes in the
door and he, tells, THEM look i can't. Identify anybody
you know what the officer, tells him just, Pick anybody
and that's exactly what. He does he just did a.
Random pick he never. Picked me but why would you
(25:22):
even take?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
That chance the same reason we have to remind people
that black, lives matter as well as why that statement
is ever met with?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Any, Pushback exactly, i'm no, full fact my life. Didn't
matter when you're going, through that when you're sitting in
this situation and you're hearing these things, going on, you're,
like man WHAT did i do to? Deserve this why
are these people doing what they're doing when basically everything
shows that. They're lying.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
So you have two witnesses who admitted in front of
you that their identifications were. Entirely invalid and then you
have these two park workers who said that they gave
the assailant a ride and that the assailant was not wearing,
a mask so they got a. Good look as we
already pointed out that dispatch tapes proved that these two
accounts were. Also lies they were standing there with the
(26:27):
police saying that they had pointed the assailant toward the.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Metrolink exactly but my attorney never presented. THIS recording i
found the recorders a couple of, years AGO so i
just found out. ABOUT it i knew they had turned
over these dispatch, tape transcripts but they only gave me.
Six pages do you know the actual recording is over
an hour and a.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Half long my producer transcribed. These tapes the ninety minute
segment you're talking about comes out to thirty, nine pages
and that's what the artificial, intelligence transcriber missing a lot
of the.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Actual words, so basically they withheld the fact that they
knew that both park workers.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Were lying that or they were counting on your attorney
not doing. His job so we already heard about al
Mcgillion And. William green so what happened when these park
workers walked into the.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Lineup Room When william green didn't pick, me out the,
officer walked, You Know william. Green out when they opened,
the door you can see the two park orders standing side.
By side the officer, were, like look, you know we
think it's the guy in position. Number three before they
even walk into, the room they, were, like, oh, yeah
yeah it's the guy in position. Number three and the officer, tells,
him no you won't have to come in and, identify
(27:34):
them so we can put it. On record so they
come in and pick me in position.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Number three so this total sham identification procedure where all
the witnesses are ready and willing to help out the
boys in blue with whatever. They Need Plus, norris holder
who's incentivized to try to avoid the death penalty even
though that ended up backfiring. For him this is essentially
the that's all they had. Against you all the, other
evidence or let's call it what, it is the actual
(27:59):
evadence told a totally.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Different story They tested holder's clothes for traces. Of gasoline
i'm talking about, the shoes, his fox, his pants, his
SHIRT his. T shirt everything he had on came back
positive for traces. OF gasoline i gave you. My clothes
not a single trace of gasoline was found.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
On anything and they knew that as well as that
you didn't match any of the. Physical descriptions you didn't
have the injury to your right hand that was described by,
the witnesses an injury that would have explained the blood
left behind on the strap to a. Bulletproof vest it
was tested for both yours and THE, victims dna. Both
negative yet still some pile, some way they chose to
(28:41):
believe holder and basically RIG the. Id process but they
didn't stop with just. One fix your attorney could have
found all of, this evidence so they needed, some more right.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
You know they wanted me to confess to, the CRIME
and i TOLD him i don't have anything to do with.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
This crime so you maintained your innocence. Through out you
were quote unquote idd in that. Fixed lineup but now
when you're going, to trial you. Receive discovery NEXT thing,
I know i read a report a few.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Days later basically he's SAYING that i confessed to.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
The crime, Get this there's not a single piece of
evidence to show that a confession ever.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Took, place well, to me it's a perfect example of
a larger phenomenon that we, know well which is that
when there's this pressure to close, the case they start
making shit up so they feel like they need a
little bit More on billy, onll, so hey, He, confessed
well where's the evidence of? This confession was? It? Recorded
no were?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Their?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Notes, yes okay then where are? The notes we don't have.
Them anymore we. Lost them we threw. IT away, i mean,
come on that's, just bullshit beginning middle.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
To end they didn't even say they, lost it which
would have like a, you know they said they threw.
It away, SO yeah i mean they threw away the
only evidence that they had that this alleged confession ever. Took,
PLACE yeah, I know. I'm not i'm.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Not really usually they say it was lost in. A
flood we've heard that in a number. Of, cases yeah we,
had it but it was lost in. A flood in,
this case, they, say help we threw. It away they.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Claimed that after, THE lineup i demanded to speak To
A lieutenant HENDERSON because i allegedly knew him from a.
Previous case the previous case they mentioned is a friend.
Of mine he. Was murdered we were the victims in,
that case and basically they so they used my friend's
murder to SAY that i confessed to this black OFFICER
because i knew HIM and i. Trusted, HIM now i
(30:36):
kept telling, My lawyers, I'M like i don't even know.
This guy ONE thing i do know is that when
my friend, was killed there wasn't one black officer that
came to that crime scene. That day, So basically i'm
telling my lawyer to look for this police REPORT so
i can prove, that they, you know manufactured. This line
he never. FINDS it i find this myself a few,
years later and come to Find out henderson didn't even worked.
(30:58):
That day so HOW can i ask to confess to
SOMEBODY that i never even? Met before but we were
never able to front him.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
With that there was a lot of bullshit slinging at
your trial and a near total abdication of duty by your,
defense attorney who could have done so much more with
what was available to him to discredit this horrendous lie
that perhaps even the jury, saw through but they most
definitely were not provided with what they needed to see
the real truth in. THIS case, i mean let's, face
(31:28):
it the very least he could have done was present
the negative gasoline RESIDUE and dna test results that would
have had a big impact on.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
THE jury, i mean the fact that he didn't even,
highlight this didn't even make it part of, his case
part of.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
HIS defense a government forensic expert even testify the trial
saying that anyone who had been in that van would
have had gasoline present on. Their clothing yet he just
didn't seize. THAT moment, i mean any first year law
student would have known to.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Do that and then there's all these different, eyewitness, discrepancies.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right and as, we mentioned there were four alleged, eyewitness
IDs and considering the dispatch tapes and interview recordings that
were available, to him more could have been done to
impeach all. Of them two of, the eyewitnesses, after all
said on the tapes that they were unable to identify.
The purpse on top of what they said and did at,
the lineup then you've got these two park workers saying
that they gave the assailant a ride And. Identified billy
(32:21):
but your attorney should have researched and pointed out that
that testimony was contradicted by what they had said in
their initial statements via the. Dispatch tape he.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Didn't present one piece of evidence on.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
My behalf he crossed examine these. Witnesses though that's it all.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
The evidence found that he had. Access to he didn't even.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Look forward his public defender did an unconscionably, poor job
didn't seek any Confirmation of, billie's alibi just sort of
let it go.
Speaker 7 (32:49):
TO me, i mean you think about somebody go shopping
in a very. Public place the first thing you're going
to do is have an investigator to every, single store
speak to, people videos trying to find witnesses.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
DOWN right, i mean there could have been receipts from
the mall security footage which instantly would Have, cleared billy
and he didn't do anything and didn't make any attempt to.
Obtain that, and now of course it's far.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Too late, of course there was a security guard that
gave him a ride, As well Chris schagag how do
you not present him or look into when he picked up.
His paycheck there would have certainly been a record that
showed that this took place at the time of, the
crime which would Have. Cleared billy but none of this.
Was Done norris holder identified you in an effort to
(33:36):
save himself and his actual partner in crime from death
row little good that ended up doing for, him. Anyway though,
and meanwhile there's the first person that, he named whose Name.
Was john this is another lead that could have and
should have. Been developed but beyond the leads it could have,
been developed there was everything that was already Available that
billy has been able to use to prove that the
(33:57):
witnesses and the police, Were lying which makes this all
so unbelievable that this ever even made it.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
To, trial yeah all the Evidence that i'm presented on
my behalf is in their, Own files so they knew
that when they presented, this testimony when they concocted this
story and claimed all, these things they had their actual
reports that showed something other than what they were actually,
Testifying too so it wasn't like it was just a
(34:23):
lot concocted by. The officers the prosecutors basically allowed them
to tell these lies because they had these files with
them when they put these people on.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
The, stand yeah you think that would make them eligible for?
Attempted murder and perhaps your trial attorney could be and
should be considered for criminal negligence because without the defense,
you needed the jury was left with this pack of
lies and not. Much else and before we go to
this trial's, INEVITABLE conclusion i want to talk about this
really makes. Me sick this electric stun Belt that billy
(34:55):
was made to wear throughout. The proceedings what in the
actual fuck is up?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
WITH that i don't, Have, WORDS jason i. Don't know
it's part of, the dehumanizing degrading process to scare jurors
into viewing somebody as being responsible and, perhaps worthy so,
to speak of getting the.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
Death penalty my, thing was, you know you want to
stand up and, you know kind of, defend yourself especially
when you're not being defended by. Your turn but the
thing About, the marshalls they, were, like look if you
make any, quick movements we're going to push. THE button
i don't even remember how many voults this. THING is
i couldn't, SAY anything i couldn't.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Do anything they were essentially treating you, like cattle and by,
the way that's not even the way cattle should be.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
TREATED exactly i was called a murderous dog by. My
prosecutor my jury was never allowed to basically see, the
truth the, whole truth and nothing but. The truth they
got half of a story that was concocted by officers
that could have easily been disputed. With evidence and so
That's why i'm kind of hoping that this platform allows
my jury to hear this stuff, and, say hey you,
(35:57):
KNOW what I think i made.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
A mistake did you have any hope that they were
going to see that at.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
The, Time, NO honestly i told, My mom and this
is a sad part. ABOUT it i told my mom
right before, THE verdict, i, Say look i'm going to get.
Found guilty she, was, like no don't. SAY that, i, say,
look mom my lawyer isn't going to present, a defense
so don't. BE surprised i prepared my mom emotionally and
prepare my family to accept the FACT that i was
(36:23):
going to get. FOUND guilty i, accepted it. You know
and here's. THE thing i wasn't mad at. MY jury
i was more mad at my defense attorney for him
not defending me and proving to THEM that i. Was
INNOCENT so i wasn't mad, at them BECAUSE if i
were to sit on, THAT jury i would have to
find a person guilty there WAS nothing i. Could do
(36:55):
from THE moment i got. Locked up that started my
mission to prove. My innocence one BECAUSE when i went,
into court, you know the victim's family, was THERE and
i saw people looking at me with so much anger
and so much pain and so. Much Hate and, I'M
like i got people hate me when they have their.
Own Person so, I'm, Like okay i'm going to make
it my mission to Prove that i'm. In this and,
(37:17):
YOU know i made that same promise to. My mom
and basically that started my JOURNEY where i started reading all.
THE fouls i read every, single paid every, single sentence
and re, transcript EVERYTHING and i start putting together at.
This huggle and when you see the story that they
tell at, my trial and you see all the evidence
that they had to show, something different you start to,
(37:40):
ask yourself why would somebody go this far to convict
me for something THEY know i, didn't do where their
own Evidence proves. I'm missing so that has been the
Burden that i've had. To carry, you know in a sense.
Being innocent being innocent is a. Burden man, you know
every day you're fighting, to live you're fighting to prove.
Your innocence you're pro fighting to convince judges to do
(38:02):
the right thing who won't do the.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Right thing so your first appeal happened in two thousand,
and one and it was based On Your fifth amendment
right to be indicted by a. Grand, jury essentially the
effort sought to get you off of.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Death throw what's interesting is that his sentence. Was mixed
so the, first count which was bank robbery in which a,
killing occurs he was convicted and. Got life on, the
second which was using a firearm during and in relation
to a federal crime of violence which resulted, in murder
he was convicted and got. Death penalty then that was
(38:34):
Appealed by billy and it was reversed so commuted. To
life but then the state appealed it To The eighth
circuit and made back to death and put him on.
Death ROW but i think the fact that you had
these different outcomes just suggest there's something. Fishy here and
also the fact that the state appealed to get it
(38:55):
back on death row just shows how hell bent they
are on having the highest possible outcome and win for.
Their case based on what they decided, to pursue which was.
Death penalty the best predictor of whether somebody is going
to get the death penalty is the race of. The
victim so having a white victim and, black perpetrator suddenly
(39:15):
the odds of prosecutors going for death penalty, shoot up
as they did in.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
This case while we're on the subject, of race in
a community that was half white and, half black literally
split evenly somehow other the jury pool ended up being ten.
White jurors so the prosecutors found all sorts of reasons
to strike black people from, the jury and on appeal
in two thousand, And Nine billy allen's lawyers sought an
(39:41):
evidentiary hearing on the, race issue noting that as of
the Twelfth of may two thousand, and nine of the
four hundred and sixty federal defendants against WHOM The Us
attorney general had authorized federal prosecutors to seek the, death
penalty and this will shock, no one but one hundred
and nineteen of them, were white and three hundred and
forty one were from minoriti racial or, ethnic groups of
(40:02):
whom two hundred and thirty seven. Were BLACK so i,
KNOW today i don't know the percentage of them is
probably about the same thirteen percent Of the american population,
is black and yet somehow, or other over fifty percent
of the time that death penalty was used weaponized against
people innocent or guilty in the, federal system it was
(40:25):
used against. Black people and, then fully another one hundred
and four of those four hundred and sixty total were
people from other. Minority groups the direct quote from the
government to this incredible statistical evidence, was quote there are
three kinds, of, lies lies, damn lies. And statistics this is,
so nonsensical it's, like cartoonish but again. Deadly serious and,
(40:49):
a judge, of course ruled that even if the court
would agree With, mister allen that these statistics amounted to
a compelling indictment of the federal government's use of the
death penalty against, minoriti defendants which is basically him almost
tacitly acknowledging that. It did he goes on, to say
the laws nevertheless clear that a defend and cannot make
out a selective prosecution claim under the Equal protection clause
without evidence that there was discriminatory motive to prosecute him.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
In, particular yeah so that's the lasting legacy of one
of The Worst supreme court decisions in, our lifetime which
is nineteen eighty seven McCleskey, versus kemp where there is
an overwhelming finding that still exists today and statistical pattern
that's indisputable that you have an overrepresentation of people, of
Color Particularly, african americans who are sentenced. To death, it's
(41:34):
undeniable And The supreme, court says even though that may,
be true it will not help Any Individual african american
defendant sentenced to death unless they can show that race
was a bias in their. Particular case and the only
way to show that is basically getting a secret recording
of the prosecutor USING the n word or somehow something
(41:55):
that would be just so egregious that would be caught,
on tape and that of course never comes. To light
but we know the overall pattern. Is there we're letting
these biases, run rampant And The, supreme court unfortunately it's
given a green light to them and that.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Continues, today yeah and while this argument with Us about
billy's case, in particular and more about the bent of
the entire system against, black defendants it was also one
that became more pressing at the time there was a
moratorium on executions on the federal level that started in
two thousand, and six but it was lifted in. Twenty
nineteen the previous occupant Of The oval office spent the
(42:27):
last gasp of his power overseeing the first seventeen executions
in a generation on the, federal level sixteen by lethal
injection and one.
Speaker 7 (42:37):
By electrocution he's the same person who sought to bring
the death penalty Back In New york state many, years
ago seeking the death penalty and execution of several young
men that were wrongfully Accused In New york City.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
In central park five From The central park five now
known As the. Exonerated five and the Fact that Billy
allen bore witnessed these executions from his vantage point as
one of the long serving people on. Death row in
spite of this remarkable body of, exculpatory Evidence so billy
also raised claims of ineffective assistance or counsel for the
(43:14):
reasons that we've already laid, out here and of course
the gasoline RESIDUE and dna tests that truly Do. Exculpay
billy let's, FACE it.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I wrote a letter to, my ATTORNEY and i framed
it this way for A reason, i, SAID basically i
was about to file. ON appeal I located, DNA evidence
i located, GASOLINE results i located all. This evidence had
you known about these THINGS before i went, to trial
would you have presented these things on? My behalf and
he in his letter in his response, to me he specifically,
(43:46):
says yes he would have presented these things had he
known about them. Before trial now here's the thing. About
it these things were in the records that he handed over.
To me there was no way in hill that my
trial Was FAIR when i had an attorney who specifically
responded to a letter that had he do about? These
(44:07):
things he, represented them but yet he had these things
in his possession and never looked.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
For, him yeah we've seen some pretty grotesque examples of
ineffective assistance of, counsel before but this is a whole.
New level but yet somehow you were denied on that front.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
As well all those denials and basically the, the rejection
it becomes a burden on, your shoulders. You know so
that has been my burden for the last, few years,
you know trying to find all. The evidence and Now
that i've, FOUND it i can't get people to listen
what does it take for people? To care what does
it take for situations? To change and, TO me i
(44:46):
guess that goes To the. Georgetown Project the, GEORGETOWN project
i felt like ignited a hope in a flame that has,
you know basically dimmed over. The years and that was my,
first introduction, you Know to Mark and marty into the,
you know the Students. At GEORGETOWN and, i asked, YOU
(45:07):
know I think I. ASKED mark i, was, like well
what is your process of? Picking people and he, was
like we go through thousands and thousands of applications and
only pick five and your Stood out and that meant everything.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
To me and of course You mean georgetown's making An
exuner Re class, and remarkably it's an, undergraduate course so
you don't have to be a, law student a, forensic
scientist or a private investigator to look at some of
the evidence, and say wait, a minute how did this
actually even go forward? To trial how much less result in?
A Conviction, and marty, YOU know i watched the remarkable
(45:45):
video that you and your students put together With the
making an, exander reclass, of course and those kids in
that class never cease to blow my mind with, the
amazing amazing work that they do semester, after semester class,
after class and of course their work has led two
the actual freeing of. Four people, NOW right I Mean,
Keith Washington, Valentino Dixon, eric riddick And Now Orlando. Trey,
(46:09):
Jones right these kids are doing absolutely. Phenomenal jobs some
of them have even come to work for us or
have gone on to law school working as paralegals on
pro bono cases or. Other nonprofits they are truly incredible
assets to this movement, for Justice and i'm so glad
that you all Landed on.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
Billy's case, billy's case, to me it was just a
multitude of things that. Went wrong every week that, we
live we see another man or woman. Become exonerated and
what we also see is that something from the original case,
went wrong and it was either from the prosecutor the
(46:49):
police's point. Of view there were, some wrongdoing, forensic misconduct or.
Incompetent lawyers And in, BILLY'S case i think he had
a little bit.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Of everything there was someone else who Is seen withholder
planning the, bank robbery but that was just. Never pursued
there was an anonymous tip that we don't know much
More about we just know that the initials of the SUSPECT,
are dm and obviously That's Not BILLY. Allen dm but
we don't know more and haven't been able to find
(47:20):
out more because it's been kept. Under wraps but that
very well could be the second Person who holder.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Is PROTECTING, there's DM, there's Jb as, billy mentioned and
a whole lot of potential avenues if you could just access,
these materials but they've been fighting it every step of.
The way now there was renewed efforts to TEST the
dna evidence against other, potential suspects which was the focus
of your filings in. Twenty twenty not only is there
this bloody strap that excludes you and the victim that
(47:48):
they refused to RUN through codis or test against, anyone
else there's also the matter of a damp cloth that
was found near the fence where the second suspect Escaped From.
Forrest park they test did IT for dna and it,
excluded you but have since sealed. Those results i'm sure
if they Had, matched billy we wouldn't be having this conversation.
(48:09):
Right now so how have those efforts gone?
Speaker 4 (48:12):
Thus far thanks stop us every year from the First
year i've filed, pro say my lawyers, Have filed we've
done everything we could to get them to basically do all,
the testing and my judge basically is has refused every
single request and the prosecutor has opposed every form of
testing in, MY case i can't get.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Nothing tested if we could TEST that dna against other,
possible suspects who knows what would come up in. This
case but there's such, A conspiracy, i mean that's not
too strong a word to say that police and prosecutors
have in just ceiling tight, a conviction even if it's the,
wrong one even if there's evidence that proves that it was.
Speaker 4 (48:50):
A mistake my case isn't one of Those where i'm
just asking, people to, you know take a chance. On
me i'm asking people to believe in my evidence and fight.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
For me so that's where this is at. Right Now
and billy and his team of fighting this on, two
fronts trying to get access to those biological materials as
well as seeking a Pardon From. President biden there's a
petition among so many other action steps linked in. The
bio but go, there now, don't wait go to the
bio click, on it sign, the petition and in addition
to all, of that there's the making an. Exonery video
(49:22):
please check all of. It out we also encourage you
To join billy Supporters this November, AND washington dc for.
A rally you Can follow Billy. On instagram It's free
BILLY B i L L i E allen A L
l e n So free billy all to. Receive updates
and now we go to our closing where first, OF
all i thank all of you for. Joining us i'm
just gonna kick back in, my chair turn my microphone
(49:43):
off and just listen for any closing thoughts that you.
All have let's Start, with Mark, then marty and then
And then billy over to you to close.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
This Out.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
Thanks jason billy is an. Extraordinary person he, is warm he,
is caring he, is funny he, is compassionate he, is,
dedicated hardworking and he's. Incredibly TALENTED and i got to
see a lot of. HIS artwork i actually have some
of it now in my Office. At Georgetown but billy
(50:12):
is himself a beacon of light and hope for. This
world AND what i really hope more than anything is
that the rest of the world will Discover the Billy
that i've come to know, and love and to recognize
his talent and to appreciate, his humanity and that hopefully
he'll have that opportunity to connect with the world as a.
Speaker 7 (50:32):
Freeman soon this is TWO things i want people. To
understand rollful convictions is. An epidemic in twenty, twenty one
we had one hundred and seventy three exonerations that were
recognized By National. Registered exonerations twenty, twenty two we already
(50:53):
have one hundred and. Seventy three billy should be added
to that list in the. Near future our system can't
function if we keep convicting, innocent people and when there's
evidence that somebody was, denied justice we let them languish
in prison day after day.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
After day.
Speaker 7 (51:17):
The day has to Come where billy gets his day.
For JUSTICE and i look forward to the Day, where,
mark myself our students can be waiting outside of a
prison somewhere like we have for four other individuals To
watch billy walk out.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
Of prison i'm not just somebody who's saying, they're innocent.
You know i'm somebody who can show You that. I'm
innocent and, TO me i feel like that shitting night people,
to say you, know what let me go to bat for.
This guy, You know, i'll get, you know letters from, people,
Saying hey i'm praying, for You and, i'm, like, okay well,
YOU know i appreciate, the PRAYERS but i need you to,
(51:53):
speak out, you know because you need those voices in
high places to be able to hear that you. Do
CARE and i feel like the more people who show that,
they care the more the system is going to have
to care and gonna have to give us the testing
that we're looking for and allow the evidence to be
the thing that motivates you to want to go out
there and fight for me to want to go. Out
(52:14):
there and, you know every time you're on, social media
instead of posting about the new foods, you're eating to
be able, to, say hey you, know What Free billy.
Allen period, you Know, in november we'll be going TO,
d c, you know to basically do a MARCH on
dc to present. My Case and i'm hoping that people
start raising their voice and have an influence when we
(52:34):
do file our Petition to biden to be able to make,
him say you, know what we're always asking another country
to do right by. Their citizens we fail this guy.
Right here let us do the right thing now and
return him to. His FAMILY and I guess i'm going
to read you SOMETHING that i think will help you
kind of GATHER who i am in. My journey and
(52:55):
it's Called long soldier to find myself engaged in the
conflict that some have deemed to be a battle between
good and evil in a desire who they have labeled.
The latter this battle is not One where thunderu's word
will be heard fought about a stench of gun smoke,
charred flesh nor where blood stains will tak the same
round with footsteps travel to. The, froe no this battle
(53:18):
is one that is rooted in the blood lines and
bloodshed that painted the, stripes red and in the blue
sky there weighed, fifty stars which are a time saluted
or draped over the caskets the. Fallen, heroes NOW because
i know that there are those who like to take
one's word out of context with, Malicious, intent no there's
no way in my claiming the role. Of hero i'm
(53:38):
just one who has been wrongfully imprisoned and who wishes
to defend myself against those who have brought this battle to,
my doorstep and in, DOING so i plan to defend
myself against, the, lies misrepresentation and advances to take my
life into pretense. Of, justice NOW after i expose, this
injustice if you then deem my actions to be that of,
(53:58):
a hero know that IT is i who will not
make such. A claim this battle will take place on
what many have deemed to be, sacred ground or what
some have said to be the foundation of, our society
without which will cause chaos and leave in its. Path
destruction and that battleground Is the constitutionist amendments to oversee,
(54:21):
this battle to ensure that it's conducted without a hint, of,
bias favoritism or that it will be tainted with the
temptation of power or. Financial Gain Is lady, justice yet to,
my disbelief though she is supposed to stand out front
of the symbol of, FUNDAMENTAL fairness i could have SWORN
that i saw her tip the scales of justice in
favor of, my foes who already have, superior, power resources
(54:45):
and who attack without. Malicious FORETHOUGHT though i know that
the odds are, AGAINST me i do not waive her on,
my STANCE and i hold tight to the hilt of
my sword of truth, and evidence where my evidence is
the material which it has been. FOR it i close,
my eyes say, a PRAYER and i can only Hope
that god Hear my please is out those stones, that
(55:06):
golive and IT is i who am the. Lone soldier.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Thank you for Listening To. Wrongful conviction you can listen
to this and All the Lava for good podcasts one
week early and ed free by Subscribing to Lava For
good Plus On. APPLE podcasts i want to thank our,
Production Team connor Hall And, kathleen fink as well as
my fellow Executive Producers, Jeff Kempler, kevin Wartis And. Jeff
cliber the music in this production was supplied by THREE
time oscar Nominated Composer. Jay ralph be sure to follow
(55:39):
us across all social media Platforms at Lava for good
And At. Wrongful conviction you can also follow Me on
Instagram At It's. Jason Flamm wrongful conviction is a Production
of Lava For good podcasts and Association With Signal Company.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Number one we've worked hard to ensure that all facts
reported in this show. Are accurate the views and opinions
expressed by the individuals featured in this show are her
own and do not necessarily reflect Those of Lava for
good
Hey, it's Connor Hall, the senior producer for Wrongful Conviction
here with more updates and behind the scenes insights. Today
we're talking about pardon powers now. At the end of
every presidency governorship, there's usually some number of pardons and commutations.
Recently a notable one was Leonard Peltier, who got the
(00:25):
news just minutes before the end of the Biden administration.
But why not day one? I guess the smart money
is on the fact that so many Americans still believe
in the infallibility of our legal system and that a
guilty verdict delivered by it is unshakable. I mean that
appears to be the foundation of its power. In Leonard's case,
(00:45):
I believe they made him part of an FBI training
module as some kind of boogeyman for new FBI agents,
So of course agents showed up in mass to derail
his pardon efforts at the end of the Clinton administration. Generally,
pardons and the like are perceived as having some sort
of soft spot for alleged violent psychopaths, rather than as
(01:08):
a critical failsafe for when the system gets it wrong,
which our audience knows that happens not only frequently, but
at times it appears to be on purpose, as does
the maintenance of those convictions through the appeals process. So
our hope is that with greater awareness of this system,
it's flawed human operators, and its perverse incentives like providing
(01:33):
slave labor to American economic might, that a political will
might amass to give our elected officials the courage to
use their pardon powers more often and throughout their terms,
feeling instead that they're not spending political capital just to
do the right thing, especially in actual innocence cases and
in the most crucial scenarios involving capital punishment. Now we've
(01:58):
covered plenty of state DEATHBA cases, most notably Ohio Governor
Dwine please do something, But I digress. On federal death row,
we've only covered one, and that's Billy Allen. Now, other
than three federal executions during the Bush administration, there hadn't
(02:18):
been any before that since nineteen sixty three, and then
not again until a thirteen execution spree starting in July
twenty twenty under President Trump, who ironically now uses his
pardon power pretty loosely. But I digress again. After the
thirteen executions in twenty twenty, he later campaigned on the
(02:40):
intention to execute the remaining forty death row inmates if
re elected, so with the incoming second term, there was
a sense of urgency around what folks, including Pope Francis,
had been lobbying Biden for since twenty twenty one, and
just two days before Christmas twenty twenty four, President Biden
(03:00):
finally listened, commuting the sentences of thirty seven out of
forty of those on death row to life, including Billy Allen.
The three that remain are two mass shooters caught at
their scenes, and the alleged Boston Marathon bomber. Brian Stevenson
was quoted about it, saying, the death penalty is a torturous, flawed, expensive,
(03:24):
and ever filled practice that must be abolished. I commend
President Biden for this historic act and hope that governors
and state executives follow the President's lead. At a time
when many of our courts are abandoning their role to
ensure fairness and reliability in criminal cases, leadership by elected
(03:46):
officials will be more critical than ever end quote. So
I'm grateful that Billy and others, some of whom may
also be innocent, that they won't feel the terror they'd
felt during that spree in late twenty twenty. But I'm
also resentful that, when considering innocence cases like Billy's, that
(04:07):
our elected officials are not more courageous with their pardon powers,
considering the obstinates we often see from judges, as well
as district attorneys and attorneys general, who sometimes use conviction
integrity units, not as they are seemingly intended to find
truth and justice and right the wrongs, but to hide
(04:28):
the misconduct of their offices past. You know, in a
conversation recently, a respected attorney commented to me that these
integrity units have become the place where innocence cases go
to die. So stay vigilant, everybody, especially with your alleged
progressive prosecutors. Now, I'd like you all to consider this
(04:52):
as you listen to Billy Allen's story. When a wrongful
conviction is maintained and a prosecutor knowingly continues to pursue
their bondage, a judge refuses to grant relief to an
innocent person, how is that not violence? And how is
(05:14):
the silence or inaction of a governor or president not
almost the same damn thing.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
On March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, two armed and masked
men robbed a bank in Saint Louis, Missouri, and batally
shot a security guard named Richard Heflin in the process
as part of their plan to destroy evidence innovate capture.
They had pre soaked the getaway van with gasoline, but
before they got to switch from the van to a
second getaway vehicle, the van caught fire. One assailant, Norris Holder,
(05:49):
was arrested at the scene, but the second assailant escape
that was described as a black man about five nine
with singed hair and an injured right hand. Norris Holder
told investigators that the escapee was named John, but later
changed that name to Bill. Police arrested an acquaintance of
Holders named Billy Allen. Other than being black, Billy did
(06:13):
not match the initial descriptions, but curiously was somehow identified
by four witnesses, including Holder. Imagine being selected for this
jury and hearing investigators tested by about an alleged confession,
as well as that four witnesses, including the only other assailant,
identify Billy Allen. You might feel pretty confident in your verdict.
(06:34):
Yet here we are, almost a quarter century later to
publicly reveal for the very first time case breaking exculpatory
evidence from the state's own files that was ignored by
both the prosecution and the defense. Did I mentioned they
send them to death? This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back
(07:06):
to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're going to do something I
don't think we've ever done before, which is that we're
covering a federal death penalty case. And we're honored. I'm
honored to have Professor Mark Howard, leader of the Making
an exaner reprogram at Georgetown. So Mark, welcome back to
(07:27):
Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Great to be back, Jason, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
And with Mark is his distinguished co professor who has
also been on the podcast before more than once for
the right and the wrong reasons. Marty Tankliff was wrongfully
convicted himself and served seventeen years when Marty was wrongfully
convicted of murdering his parents, and of course he's been
(07:52):
exonerated and we've become great friends. And he also is
Mark's childhood friend and the professor now at Georgetown of
the Making an Exanery program. So Marty tankleff es Choir,
Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, you know the fact
(08:12):
that we're all here today is a beautiful thing, but
it's also an extremely troubling thing because we're here today
to talk about Billy Allen, who has been on death
row in the federal system for a quarter of a
century now, since he was nineteen years old.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I appreciate you, you know, you all taking an interest in
my story and wanting to tell it.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Well, Billy, yours is a story that definitely needs to
be told, so welcome to the show. But before we
get into all the details, i'd love to hear about
your life before this horrible scenario took place.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
You know, I grew up in a house with three
sisters on the north side of Saint Louis, which was
I guess you can say, flooded with drugs, a lot
of violence and stuff like that. Even though I lived
in the underprivileged neighborhood, I went to school in a
privileged neighborhood. Clayton, Missouri, is considered probably one of the
wealthiest places in Missouri. You know, no matter if I
(09:08):
go out to the clay School district and I'm around
rich people, I still have to deal with my surroundings
when I come home. You're like where do I fit
in in things?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It sounds like you had a foothold in these two
sort of opposite worlds of haves and have nots, which
sounds like you could be pretty confusing. So after you
graduated high school and leading up to March of ninety seven,
what were you up.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
To, to be honest with people, You know, I was
hustling at the time. You know, I wasn't a big
drug dealer or anything like that. I was just hustling
at the time. But at the same time, I was
trying to find my way at the time, and that's
why I met the you know, the girl I ended
up with who I was going to move in with,
you know, because basically I was going to get a job,
stop selling drugs and just I guess you could say,
start my growth. Not only for her, but she had
(09:52):
a daughter, so I was trying to be better for
all of them.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So you were at a crossroads, and it sounds like
you were choosing a more promising path. But your connection
the old neighborhood happened to bring you into contact with
one of the actual bank robbers in this case, Norris Holder.
You had met him through job corps once and then
had a chance encounter with him years later. Apparently you
had sold him some weed once or vice versa, and
(10:16):
it was this chance meeting and short lived hang out
just a few days before Holder committed this crime that
even put you into the realm of possibilities. I mean,
how well did you even know this Holder guy?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Well, I didn't know Holder per se. I guess you
can say the way they tried to, you know, sell
the story to my jury. When I was at a
club one day older, I knew one of his friends
he was with, you know, just from my neighborhood, and
so you know, we ended up just talking. So he's like, hey, look,
you know, let's look up one day just being cordial
with people. Plus up, Like I said, I knew the
guy he was with. Then a few days you know later,
(10:49):
I get a call from him, you know, basically like
hey man, you know, I'm going to go to the
mall and you know, I got some weed, and I'm like, okay,
well I'm in now. But for them to make it
seem like we were friends, we were food in this
crime or anything like that, how can you say that
I would involve myself in a crime of this magnitude
with somebody I didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Right, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot
of sense until you consider the investigators in this case,
one of whom Joseph Nickerson is on the Saint Louis
DA's do not testify list, which is, by the way,
exactly what it sounds like. He's not allowed to testify
in cases because he lies so much. He's the detective,
by the way, from another egregious wrongful convictioning case out
(11:31):
of Saint Louis, Lamar Johnson. In Lamar's case, Nickerson fabricated
a narrative from alleged witness statements, but these witnesses later
denied saying any of the things Nickerson had attributed to them.
He perjured himself to make Lamar's culpability even plausible. And
then there's a cash incentivized eyewitness who was convinced that
the mass gunman in this case was Lamar Johnson, so
(11:53):
he went along with the ID which you'll see in
it a bit sounds eerily similar to what happened in
this case. Now. I believe his partner, a guy named Carol,
is actually doing time now for assaulting someone who was
in custody. So it's patterns like these that give a
helpful context to what happened in Billy's case. So let's
(12:13):
get to that. The morning of March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
where were you actually that paidful morning?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I had left the house early that morning, like at
eight o'clock in the morning. They claimed that I had
called holder and told them let's get ready for the
crime and all this stuff from the house. But how
can I call you from the house when I'm already gone,
you know. So I get to the mall early in
the morning, and my first stop is to the hat Zone.
So I went to foot Locker, and I went to
another story foot quarters, and right after that, I went
(12:43):
to Famous and Barb, which is a clothing store. I
went to this tuxedo place. And so as I'm shopping, basically,
I see Chris Hiagog. Now Chris Kigog is a security
guard who was after the mall to pick up his paycheck.
He was like, Hey, I'm just going to pick up
my check and I plan to go to another mall
to do some and stuff like that. So I'm like, well,
can I ride with you? I was like, look, I
(13:04):
just got to drop a few items off a girl
I was dating, and so he was like okay. So
he went to pick up his check and we left
the mall and I dropped off a few items for
her baby and basically gave her some money because we
were moving in together, and left.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So you've been out of the house since eight am.
At the mall where you visited, several stores made several
points of contact, and there was also surveillance footage. So
all the great alibi evidence that places you away from
the scene at the time of the crime, none of
it was investigated or later presented on your behalf. So
while you were shopping across town, there was this bank
(13:41):
robbery going on at the Lindell Bank and Trust, which
is caddy corner from this huge park in Saint Louis
that houses the Saint Louis Zoo, several museums, landmarks, on
golf course, this skating rink, and this area is known
as Forest Park. Again. This is March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
around ten thirty five am, when two masked and armed
men busted down the door and told everybody to get
(14:01):
on the ground.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
There were two bank robbers who stole fifty thousand dollars,
and a security guard named Richard Heflin was killed in
the process of that robbery. And then the two men
left the scene in a getaway van, drove to Forest Park,
and they had a plan apparently to set the van
on fire and then get away in a different vehicle
(14:23):
that they planted there. But the van had actually been
pre soaked in gasoline and exploded and caught on fire
inside the park before sort of the full extent of
their plan and a getaway plan could work. And so the driver,
a guy named Norris Holder, was still on fire himself
(14:43):
and was pulled out of the car, and then the
second suspect ran away.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So Holder was in custody almost immediately. And I've listened
to the dispatch tapes from that morning. It sounds pretty chaotic,
but ultimately it sounds like a team of folks trying
to bring the bank robbers and ers of this bank
security guard to justice. And this is so important. Every
one of them described a blackmail about five eight to
(15:08):
five ten, wearing gray sweats and a blue and red
colored jacket, and they said he had singed hair, understandably
since a pan was on fire. And an injured right hand.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
They never described the person with a beard, and I
had a beard at the time, So if I was
the person who walked up to you and asked you
for directions, wouldn't that be one of the most descriptive
things you can point out about an individual.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Had it actually been you, they would have mentioned a beard,
right That's a pretty big detail for everybody to leave out,
But they did not say that. They also would have
said over six two instead of around five to nine.
Big difference there. And when you were eventually picked up,
your right hand was not injured and your hair was
not burned in any way. So if you listen to
(15:52):
all of the dispatch tapes as we did, the story
remains the same. In the immediate aftermath, the assailant came
over a hill from the direction of the burning van.
He went toward the fence line and allegedly told them
that his van caught fire and he needed to get
to the metro link.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Both park workers, you know, when they first came forward,
they claimed that all they did was gave him directions
to the metro link. The thing about it is, when
we get the trial, both park workers change their story.
They claim they gave the person a ride outside of
the park. Do you know I have their actual recordings? Well,
police officer is standing right with them, calling in the
(16:28):
dispatch the.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
Forestry division supervisor. They honestry workers all the second subject,
he was running east from the burning van by a
construction trailer. That's about two hundred yards east down. They're
heading right over here by the sense line. There's a
hole in the fence.
Speaker 6 (16:46):
Find out one or two. That exactly why we too,
cap with the calling. They don't call you the best,
take our car relt it to the bank. Robbery subjects
with glad playing calling under a fat growth in the
collect way, the black man having on a flatpath, they
had on a multi colored traffic.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The park workers just told them that they gave the
person directions. Right.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
These park workers, along with everyone else at this point,
were just feeding in whatever they could to help nab
this guy. No other agenda. They pointed him in the
right direction and he left got away. Whatever threw a
hole in the fence, importantly not in someone's car. Giving
this assailant a ride outside the park would really make
for a much more credible ID, which is why we
(17:33):
believe this story changed by the time of trial, but
back to the immediate aftermath. Ultimately, the effort to close
in on the second assailant was unsuccessful, and they were
hoping to get something out of Holder.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yeah, when Holder was arrested, he says, the person with
him with some guy named John. Then they threatened him
with the definily and said, hey, look, whoever's the least
culpable is who might get lingency in this case. So
basically you need to provide us, you know, with a story,
you know, or something that can help us out or
help you out. So all of a sudden, he switches
from John and he mentions my name.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
So now he's given them something concrete, a full name,
and not just a name that feels chosen at random.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
That's the thing. He didn't even know my last name.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
He just said Bill, just Bill, that's it.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
I'll show you where Bill lives.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Now.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
The thing about the John's situation is this. Throughout their reports,
there's a person named JB who was connected to Holder.
We think JB is his cousin. I can't, you know,
I don't want to falsely accuse anybody or anything like that,
you know, but that's this is what the reports are
basically saying, it's my belief that Holder is using me
as escapego to protect somebody who was close to.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So now you had no idea what was coming your way.
Did you even know that this bank robbery had taken place?
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Well, I did see the crime, you know, on the
news when they arrested Holder, and so I'm like, okay, well,
you know I'm not involved in so it doesn't really
draw my attention to it. Next thing I know, I'm
at the apartment, you know, with the all I was
living with at the time, and I hear some banging
on the door, you know, FBI and police officers come
to my door. They arrest me, and the first thing
(19:08):
I tell them, look, you're arresting the wrong person. I
had the clothes that I had bought on the couch.
The receipts are still in the back, the clothes are
still in the back, and I'm like, look, just go
to the mall and ask to see the surveillance footage
and basically you'll see that I have an alibi at
the time the crime took place. You know, you can't
beat a video, and that they can talk to Krishagov,
(19:30):
who was a security guard at the time to find
out whether or not I was at the mall.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, but unfortunately they weren't interested in solving the case.
They were interested in fixing the facts to match the
name that they got from Norris Holder. So you were
arrested around two am. What happened next.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
When I was in the homicide office, it's two officers
that came and talked to me, Thomas Carroll and Joseph Nickerson,
and I kept repeating the same story. Now they claim
they went to the mall, yet for some reason reason,
there's no surveillance footage that can be found. I believe
they have this footage. I reported about this before the
(20:06):
Lamar Johnson case and come to find out years later
they withheld recordings in Lamar Johnson case. So it's like
a pattern down there dealing with these officers.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
A pattern that is unfortunately prevalent in Saint Louis, and
let's face it, around this whole country as are alleged
false confessions or fabricated statements, which we'll get into in
a bit. But first, what happened in that interrogation room.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I told them, look, I didn't have anything to do
with the crime. So They're like, okay, well, if you
didn't commit this crime and give us your DNA, I'm like, sure, shit,
I ain't got none to do what you can have it.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
When I was in prison, I used to always ask
guys who would say they're innocent. One of the first
quers I said, would you be one to do a
DNA test? And almost ninety nine point nine percent of
the people who are really innocent said, I will do
a DNA test. I will do any forensic tests that
I can do to prove my inn And Billy falls
(21:02):
into the category who said I want to do anything
and everything possible.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Next thing they do, they'd sailed to a van you
know that was used in the crime. Was soaked in gasoline.
You know, so if you don't have any gasoline on
your clothes, you know that can help prove that you
weren't there. So I willingly gave him my DNA and
my clothes.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I mean the fact that this entire case was covered
in gasoline, so to speak, and Billy has none on him.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
They tested the co defendant his clothes were sure enough,
every bench of them had gasoline residue on them.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
Billy had a credible alibi DNA test results came back negative.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
They left open the question whose DNA is it? And
that hasn't been pursued, hasn't been shown, but it's certainly
not Billy's.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So take take us back there, Billy to the interrogation
and id process.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Next thing I know, an FBI agent comes into the room,
Agent Jan Hartman. You know, she started reading my right.
This is the first time I was ever read my
right silent. I'm like, well, look, I want a lawyer
from the court period. I'm done talking. I don't have
anything to say. You all aren't going to believe me. So,
according to her trial testimony, she never told anybody about
my request for an attorney. So one officer comes in,
(22:12):
he conducted the lineup. I'm like, well, look, you know,
where's my attorney at And he was like, you know,
you don't need an attorney for this. I'm like, but
I asked for one. He's like, well, you can get
one afterword. So they took me to the lineup. And
now here's the crazy part about this lineup. I'm the
tallest person in the damn lineup. They have nobody close
to six' two in this. Lineup nobody who looks like
(22:34):
me in this, Lineup and to make matters, worse he
puts me in position number. THREE i am the tallest
person in this, thing And i'm beside the two shortest
people inside This so basically you're giving people the person
you want them to.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Pick not only is it, suggestive but it's also telling
about the description they had.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Exactly five, eight five. Ten and like our, lineup a
lot of people when they envision, lineups envisioning you behind
the glass and the witnesses are outside of the. Thing
The Saint louis if they have a piece of, cloth
it's like a black piece of cloth right, there so
you can. See you can actually see the damn person
who's basically identifying, you you, know and you can hear.
Them and this is just how hilarious my lineup. Was
(23:17):
this lady il. Mcgilliam you, know they were telling, her,
well can you identify the person you? Saw she picks
the person in position number. Two, now if you look
at this person in my lineup, photo this dude has
a freaking full. Beard he looks nothing like, me and
he fished the description that she gave of the person
she saw at the. Crime so NOW i hear this.
(23:39):
Guy he comes on and, say, hey, look we think
it's the guy in position number. Three can we bring him?
Forward and you look at, him she was, like are you?
Sure he's like. Yeah so they told the number two
guy go back and they take me out of the,
lineup and she was, like, YEAH i think.
Speaker 6 (23:55):
You might be.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Right. Wow if you go to my, transcripts she will
tell you she picked the guy in position number. Two
so why would you pick somebody five a full, beard
full head of, hair and yet that would a sudden
you switch your account to somebody six' to two small
beard at. The time so come to, find out, you
know in a, dispatch tape she actually is reporting that
(24:18):
she couldn't even describe the person. She saw this is
on their, Own recordings so my attorney didn't. Find it
it was never presented on my defense. Or anything but
yet this woman was allowed to pick somebody in position
number two who was clearly DIFFERENT than, i was and
then basically come to court change, her story claimed that
she never told the. Officers that and then we have
the recordings to prove that the prosecutors presented.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
False testimony and this wasn't the only time The prosecutors
no only put on false testimony in, this case nor
was it the last time that one of the quote
unquote eyewitnesses picked someone out when they had no business
doing so because they admitted not having seen, the assailant
like the guy who had followed the van from the
bank to, The Park.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
William Green william green walked in. The ROOM like, i
said you can clearly hear what the person is, telling them,
you know talking to. The witnesses he comes in the
door and he, tells, THEM look i can't. Identify anybody
you know what the officer, tells him just, Pick anybody
and that's exactly what. He does he just did a.
Random pick he never. Picked me but why would you
(25:22):
even take?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
That chance the same reason we have to remind people
that black, lives matter as well as why that statement
is ever met with?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Any, Pushback exactly, i'm no, full fact my life. Didn't
matter when you're going, through that when you're sitting in
this situation and you're hearing these things, going on, you're,
like man WHAT did i do to? Deserve this why
are these people doing what they're doing when basically everything
shows that. They're lying.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
So you have two witnesses who admitted in front of
you that their identifications were. Entirely invalid and then you
have these two park workers who said that they gave
the assailant a ride and that the assailant was not wearing,
a mask so they got a. Good look as we
already pointed out that dispatch tapes proved that these two
accounts were. Also lies they were standing there with the
(26:27):
police saying that they had pointed the assailant toward the.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Metrolink exactly but my attorney never presented. THIS recording i
found the recorders a couple of, years AGO so i
just found out. ABOUT it i knew they had turned
over these dispatch, tape transcripts but they only gave me.
Six pages do you know the actual recording is over
an hour and a.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Half long my producer transcribed. These tapes the ninety minute
segment you're talking about comes out to thirty, nine pages
and that's what the artificial, intelligence transcriber missing a lot
of the.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Actual words, so basically they withheld the fact that they
knew that both park workers.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Were lying that or they were counting on your attorney
not doing. His job so we already heard about al
Mcgillion And. William green so what happened when these park
workers walked into the.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Lineup Room When william green didn't pick, me out the,
officer walked, You Know william. Green out when they opened,
the door you can see the two park orders standing side.
By side the officer, were, like look, you know we
think it's the guy in position. Number three before they
even walk into, the room they, were, like, oh, yeah
yeah it's the guy in position. Number three and the officer, tells,
him no you won't have to come in and, identify
(27:34):
them so we can put it. On record so they
come in and pick me in position.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Number three so this total sham identification procedure where all
the witnesses are ready and willing to help out the
boys in blue with whatever. They Need Plus, norris holder
who's incentivized to try to avoid the death penalty even
though that ended up backfiring. For him this is essentially
the that's all they had. Against you all the, other
evidence or let's call it what, it is the actual
(27:59):
evadence told a totally.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Different story They tested holder's clothes for traces. Of gasoline
i'm talking about, the shoes, his fox, his pants, his
SHIRT his. T shirt everything he had on came back
positive for traces. OF gasoline i gave you. My clothes
not a single trace of gasoline was found.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
On anything and they knew that as well as that
you didn't match any of the. Physical descriptions you didn't
have the injury to your right hand that was described by,
the witnesses an injury that would have explained the blood
left behind on the strap to a. Bulletproof vest it
was tested for both yours and THE, victims dna. Both
negative yet still some pile, some way they chose to
(28:41):
believe holder and basically RIG the. Id process but they
didn't stop with just. One fix your attorney could have
found all of, this evidence so they needed, some more right.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
You know they wanted me to confess to, the CRIME
and i TOLD him i don't have anything to do with.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
This crime so you maintained your innocence. Through out you
were quote unquote idd in that. Fixed lineup but now
when you're going, to trial you. Receive discovery NEXT thing,
I know i read a report a few.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Days later basically he's SAYING that i confessed to.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
The crime, Get this there's not a single piece of
evidence to show that a confession ever.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Took, place well, to me it's a perfect example of
a larger phenomenon that we, know well which is that
when there's this pressure to close, the case they start
making shit up so they feel like they need a
little bit More on billy, onll, so hey, He, confessed
well where's the evidence of? This confession was? It? Recorded
no were?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Their?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Notes, yes okay then where are? The notes we don't have.
Them anymore we. Lost them we threw. IT away, i mean,
come on that's, just bullshit beginning middle.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
To end they didn't even say they, lost it which
would have like a, you know they said they threw.
It away, SO yeah i mean they threw away the
only evidence that they had that this alleged confession ever. Took,
PLACE yeah, I know. I'm not i'm.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Not really usually they say it was lost in. A
flood we've heard that in a number. Of, cases yeah we,
had it but it was lost in. A flood in,
this case, they, say help we threw. It away they.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Claimed that after, THE lineup i demanded to speak To
A lieutenant HENDERSON because i allegedly knew him from a.
Previous case the previous case they mentioned is a friend.
Of mine he. Was murdered we were the victims in,
that case and basically they so they used my friend's
murder to SAY that i confessed to this black OFFICER
because i knew HIM and i. Trusted, HIM now i
(30:36):
kept telling, My lawyers, I'M like i don't even know.
This guy ONE thing i do know is that when
my friend, was killed there wasn't one black officer that
came to that crime scene. That day, So basically i'm
telling my lawyer to look for this police REPORT so
i can prove, that they, you know manufactured. This line
he never. FINDS it i find this myself a few,
years later and come to Find out henderson didn't even worked.
(30:58):
That day so HOW can i ask to confess to
SOMEBODY that i never even? Met before but we were
never able to front him.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
With that there was a lot of bullshit slinging at
your trial and a near total abdication of duty by your,
defense attorney who could have done so much more with
what was available to him to discredit this horrendous lie
that perhaps even the jury, saw through but they most
definitely were not provided with what they needed to see
the real truth in. THIS case, i mean let's, face
(31:28):
it the very least he could have done was present
the negative gasoline RESIDUE and dna test results that would
have had a big impact on.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
THE jury, i mean the fact that he didn't even,
highlight this didn't even make it part of, his case
part of.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
HIS defense a government forensic expert even testify the trial
saying that anyone who had been in that van would
have had gasoline present on. Their clothing yet he just
didn't seize. THAT moment, i mean any first year law
student would have known to.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Do that and then there's all these different, eyewitness, discrepancies.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right and as, we mentioned there were four alleged, eyewitness
IDs and considering the dispatch tapes and interview recordings that
were available, to him more could have been done to
impeach all. Of them two of, the eyewitnesses, after all
said on the tapes that they were unable to identify.
The purpse on top of what they said and did at,
the lineup then you've got these two park workers saying
that they gave the assailant a ride And. Identified billy
(32:21):
but your attorney should have researched and pointed out that
that testimony was contradicted by what they had said in
their initial statements via the. Dispatch tape he.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Didn't present one piece of evidence on.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
My behalf he crossed examine these. Witnesses though that's it all.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
The evidence found that he had. Access to he didn't even.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Look forward his public defender did an unconscionably, poor job
didn't seek any Confirmation of, billie's alibi just sort of
let it go.
Speaker 7 (32:49):
TO me, i mean you think about somebody go shopping
in a very. Public place the first thing you're going
to do is have an investigator to every, single store
speak to, people videos trying to find witnesses.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
DOWN right, i mean there could have been receipts from
the mall security footage which instantly would Have, cleared billy
and he didn't do anything and didn't make any attempt to.
Obtain that, and now of course it's far.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Too late, of course there was a security guard that
gave him a ride, As well Chris schagag how do
you not present him or look into when he picked up.
His paycheck there would have certainly been a record that
showed that this took place at the time of, the
crime which would Have. Cleared billy but none of this.
Was Done norris holder identified you in an effort to
(33:36):
save himself and his actual partner in crime from death
row little good that ended up doing for, him. Anyway though,
and meanwhile there's the first person that, he named whose Name.
Was john this is another lead that could have and
should have. Been developed but beyond the leads it could have,
been developed there was everything that was already Available that
billy has been able to use to prove that the
(33:57):
witnesses and the police, Were lying which makes this all
so unbelievable that this ever even made it.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
To, trial yeah all the Evidence that i'm presented on
my behalf is in their, Own files so they knew
that when they presented, this testimony when they concocted this
story and claimed all, these things they had their actual
reports that showed something other than what they were actually,
Testifying too so it wasn't like it was just a
(34:23):
lot concocted by. The officers the prosecutors basically allowed them
to tell these lies because they had these files with
them when they put these people on.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
The, stand yeah you think that would make them eligible for?
Attempted murder and perhaps your trial attorney could be and
should be considered for criminal negligence because without the defense,
you needed the jury was left with this pack of
lies and not. Much else and before we go to
this trial's, INEVITABLE conclusion i want to talk about this
really makes. Me sick this electric stun Belt that billy
(34:55):
was made to wear throughout. The proceedings what in the
actual fuck is up?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
WITH that i don't, Have, WORDS jason i. Don't know
it's part of, the dehumanizing degrading process to scare jurors
into viewing somebody as being responsible and, perhaps worthy so,
to speak of getting the.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
Death penalty my, thing was, you know you want to
stand up and, you know kind of, defend yourself especially
when you're not being defended by. Your turn but the
thing About, the marshalls they, were, like look if you
make any, quick movements we're going to push. THE button
i don't even remember how many voults this. THING is
i couldn't, SAY anything i couldn't.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Do anything they were essentially treating you, like cattle and by,
the way that's not even the way cattle should be.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
TREATED exactly i was called a murderous dog by. My
prosecutor my jury was never allowed to basically see, the
truth the, whole truth and nothing but. The truth they
got half of a story that was concocted by officers
that could have easily been disputed. With evidence and so
That's why i'm kind of hoping that this platform allows
my jury to hear this stuff, and, say hey you,
(35:57):
KNOW what I think i made.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
A mistake did you have any hope that they were
going to see that at.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
The, Time, NO honestly i told, My mom and this
is a sad part. ABOUT it i told my mom
right before, THE verdict, i, Say look i'm going to get.
Found guilty she, was, like no don't. SAY that, i, say,
look mom my lawyer isn't going to present, a defense
so don't. BE surprised i prepared my mom emotionally and
prepare my family to accept the FACT that i was
(36:23):
going to get. FOUND guilty i, accepted it. You know
and here's. THE thing i wasn't mad at. MY jury
i was more mad at my defense attorney for him
not defending me and proving to THEM that i. Was
INNOCENT so i wasn't mad, at them BECAUSE if i
were to sit on, THAT jury i would have to
find a person guilty there WAS nothing i. Could do
(36:55):
from THE moment i got. Locked up that started my
mission to prove. My innocence one BECAUSE when i went,
into court, you know the victim's family, was THERE and
i saw people looking at me with so much anger
and so much pain and so. Much Hate and, I'M
like i got people hate me when they have their.
Own Person so, I'm, Like okay i'm going to make
it my mission to Prove that i'm. In this and,
(37:17):
YOU know i made that same promise to. My mom
and basically that started my JOURNEY where i started reading all.
THE fouls i read every, single paid every, single sentence
and re, transcript EVERYTHING and i start putting together at.
This huggle and when you see the story that they
tell at, my trial and you see all the evidence
that they had to show, something different you start to,
(37:40):
ask yourself why would somebody go this far to convict
me for something THEY know i, didn't do where their
own Evidence proves. I'm missing so that has been the
Burden that i've had. To carry, you know in a sense.
Being innocent being innocent is a. Burden man, you know
every day you're fighting, to live you're fighting to prove.
Your innocence you're pro fighting to convince judges to do
(38:02):
the right thing who won't do the.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Right thing so your first appeal happened in two thousand,
and one and it was based On Your fifth amendment
right to be indicted by a. Grand, jury essentially the
effort sought to get you off of.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Death throw what's interesting is that his sentence. Was mixed
so the, first count which was bank robbery in which a,
killing occurs he was convicted and. Got life on, the
second which was using a firearm during and in relation
to a federal crime of violence which resulted, in murder
he was convicted and got. Death penalty then that was
(38:34):
Appealed by billy and it was reversed so commuted. To
life but then the state appealed it To The eighth
circuit and made back to death and put him on.
Death ROW but i think the fact that you had
these different outcomes just suggest there's something. Fishy here and
also the fact that the state appealed to get it
(38:55):
back on death row just shows how hell bent they
are on having the highest possible outcome and win for.
Their case based on what they decided, to pursue which was.
Death penalty the best predictor of whether somebody is going
to get the death penalty is the race of. The
victim so having a white victim and, black perpetrator suddenly
(39:15):
the odds of prosecutors going for death penalty, shoot up
as they did in.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
This case while we're on the subject, of race in
a community that was half white and, half black literally
split evenly somehow other the jury pool ended up being ten.
White jurors so the prosecutors found all sorts of reasons
to strike black people from, the jury and on appeal
in two thousand, And Nine billy allen's lawyers sought an
(39:41):
evidentiary hearing on the, race issue noting that as of
the Twelfth of may two thousand, and nine of the
four hundred and sixty federal defendants against WHOM The Us
attorney general had authorized federal prosecutors to seek the, death
penalty and this will shock, no one but one hundred
and nineteen of them, were white and three hundred and
forty one were from minoriti racial or, ethnic groups of
(40:02):
whom two hundred and thirty seven. Were BLACK so i,
KNOW today i don't know the percentage of them is
probably about the same thirteen percent Of the american population,
is black and yet somehow, or other over fifty percent
of the time that death penalty was used weaponized against
people innocent or guilty in the, federal system it was
(40:25):
used against. Black people and, then fully another one hundred
and four of those four hundred and sixty total were
people from other. Minority groups the direct quote from the
government to this incredible statistical evidence, was quote there are
three kinds, of, lies lies, damn lies. And statistics this is,
so nonsensical it's, like cartoonish but again. Deadly serious and,
(40:49):
a judge, of course ruled that even if the court
would agree With, mister allen that these statistics amounted to
a compelling indictment of the federal government's use of the
death penalty against, minoriti defendants which is basically him almost
tacitly acknowledging that. It did he goes on, to say
the laws nevertheless clear that a defend and cannot make
out a selective prosecution claim under the Equal protection clause
without evidence that there was discriminatory motive to prosecute him.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
In, particular yeah so that's the lasting legacy of one
of The Worst supreme court decisions in, our lifetime which
is nineteen eighty seven McCleskey, versus kemp where there is
an overwhelming finding that still exists today and statistical pattern
that's indisputable that you have an overrepresentation of people, of
Color Particularly, african americans who are sentenced. To death, it's
(41:34):
undeniable And The supreme, court says even though that may,
be true it will not help Any Individual african american
defendant sentenced to death unless they can show that race
was a bias in their. Particular case and the only
way to show that is basically getting a secret recording
of the prosecutor USING the n word or somehow something
(41:55):
that would be just so egregious that would be caught,
on tape and that of course never comes. To light
but we know the overall pattern. Is there we're letting
these biases, run rampant And The, supreme court unfortunately it's
given a green light to them and that.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Continues, today yeah and while this argument with Us about
billy's case, in particular and more about the bent of
the entire system against, black defendants it was also one
that became more pressing at the time there was a
moratorium on executions on the federal level that started in
two thousand, and six but it was lifted in. Twenty
nineteen the previous occupant Of The oval office spent the
(42:27):
last gasp of his power overseeing the first seventeen executions
in a generation on the, federal level sixteen by lethal
injection and one.
Speaker 7 (42:37):
By electrocution he's the same person who sought to bring
the death penalty Back In New york state many, years
ago seeking the death penalty and execution of several young
men that were wrongfully Accused In New york City.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
In central park five From The central park five now
known As the. Exonerated five and the Fact that Billy
allen bore witnessed these executions from his vantage point as
one of the long serving people on. Death row in
spite of this remarkable body of, exculpatory Evidence so billy
also raised claims of ineffective assistance or counsel for the
(43:14):
reasons that we've already laid, out here and of course
the gasoline RESIDUE and dna tests that truly Do. Exculpay
billy let's, FACE it.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I wrote a letter to, my ATTORNEY and i framed
it this way for A reason, i, SAID basically i
was about to file. ON appeal I located, DNA evidence
i located, GASOLINE results i located all. This evidence had
you known about these THINGS before i went, to trial
would you have presented these things on? My behalf and
he in his letter in his response, to me he specifically,
(43:46):
says yes he would have presented these things had he
known about them. Before trial now here's the thing. About
it these things were in the records that he handed over.
To me there was no way in hill that my
trial Was FAIR when i had an attorney who specifically
responded to a letter that had he do about? These
(44:07):
things he, represented them but yet he had these things
in his possession and never looked.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
For, him yeah we've seen some pretty grotesque examples of
ineffective assistance of, counsel before but this is a whole.
New level but yet somehow you were denied on that front.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
As well all those denials and basically the, the rejection
it becomes a burden on, your shoulders. You know so
that has been my burden for the last, few years,
you know trying to find all. The evidence and Now
that i've, FOUND it i can't get people to listen
what does it take for people? To care what does
it take for situations? To change and, TO me i
(44:46):
guess that goes To the. Georgetown Project the, GEORGETOWN project
i felt like ignited a hope in a flame that has,
you know basically dimmed over. The years and that was my,
first introduction, you Know to Mark and marty into the,
you know the Students. At GEORGETOWN and, i asked, YOU
(45:07):
know I think I. ASKED mark i, was, like well
what is your process of? Picking people and he, was
like we go through thousands and thousands of applications and
only pick five and your Stood out and that meant everything.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
To me and of course You mean georgetown's making An
exuner Re class, and remarkably it's an, undergraduate course so
you don't have to be a, law student a, forensic
scientist or a private investigator to look at some of
the evidence, and say wait, a minute how did this
actually even go forward? To trial how much less result in?
A Conviction, and marty, YOU know i watched the remarkable
(45:45):
video that you and your students put together With the
making an, exander reclass, of course and those kids in
that class never cease to blow my mind with, the
amazing amazing work that they do semester, after semester class,
after class and of course their work has led two
the actual freeing of. Four people, NOW right I Mean,
Keith Washington, Valentino Dixon, eric riddick And Now Orlando. Trey,
(46:09):
Jones right these kids are doing absolutely. Phenomenal jobs some
of them have even come to work for us or
have gone on to law school working as paralegals on
pro bono cases or. Other nonprofits they are truly incredible
assets to this movement, for Justice and i'm so glad
that you all Landed on.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
Billy's case, billy's case, to me it was just a
multitude of things that. Went wrong every week that, we
live we see another man or woman. Become exonerated and
what we also see is that something from the original case,
went wrong and it was either from the prosecutor the
(46:49):
police's point. Of view there were, some wrongdoing, forensic misconduct or.
Incompetent lawyers And in, BILLY'S case i think he had
a little bit.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Of everything there was someone else who Is seen withholder
planning the, bank robbery but that was just. Never pursued
there was an anonymous tip that we don't know much
More about we just know that the initials of the SUSPECT,
are dm and obviously That's Not BILLY. Allen dm but
we don't know more and haven't been able to find
(47:20):
out more because it's been kept. Under wraps but that
very well could be the second Person who holder.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Is PROTECTING, there's DM, there's Jb as, billy mentioned and
a whole lot of potential avenues if you could just access,
these materials but they've been fighting it every step of.
The way now there was renewed efforts to TEST the
dna evidence against other, potential suspects which was the focus
of your filings in. Twenty twenty not only is there
this bloody strap that excludes you and the victim that
(47:48):
they refused to RUN through codis or test against, anyone
else there's also the matter of a damp cloth that
was found near the fence where the second suspect Escaped From.
Forrest park they test did IT for dna and it,
excluded you but have since sealed. Those results i'm sure
if they Had, matched billy we wouldn't be having this conversation.
(48:09):
Right now so how have those efforts gone?
Speaker 4 (48:12):
Thus far thanks stop us every year from the First
year i've filed, pro say my lawyers, Have filed we've
done everything we could to get them to basically do all,
the testing and my judge basically is has refused every
single request and the prosecutor has opposed every form of
testing in, MY case i can't get.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Nothing tested if we could TEST that dna against other,
possible suspects who knows what would come up in. This
case but there's such, A conspiracy, i mean that's not
too strong a word to say that police and prosecutors
have in just ceiling tight, a conviction even if it's the,
wrong one even if there's evidence that proves that it was.
Speaker 4 (48:50):
A mistake my case isn't one of Those where i'm
just asking, people to, you know take a chance. On
me i'm asking people to believe in my evidence and fight.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
For me so that's where this is at. Right Now
and billy and his team of fighting this on, two
fronts trying to get access to those biological materials as
well as seeking a Pardon From. President biden there's a
petition among so many other action steps linked in. The
bio but go, there now, don't wait go to the
bio click, on it sign, the petition and in addition
to all, of that there's the making an. Exonery video
(49:22):
please check all of. It out we also encourage you
To join billy Supporters this November, AND washington dc for.
A rally you Can follow Billy. On instagram It's free
BILLY B i L L i E allen A L
l e n So free billy all to. Receive updates
and now we go to our closing where first, OF
all i thank all of you for. Joining us i'm
just gonna kick back in, my chair turn my microphone
(49:43):
off and just listen for any closing thoughts that you.
All have let's Start, with Mark, then marty and then
And then billy over to you to close.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
This Out.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
Thanks jason billy is an. Extraordinary person he, is warm he,
is caring he, is funny he, is compassionate he, is,
dedicated hardworking and he's. Incredibly TALENTED and i got to
see a lot of. HIS artwork i actually have some
of it now in my Office. At Georgetown but billy
(50:12):
is himself a beacon of light and hope for. This
world AND what i really hope more than anything is
that the rest of the world will Discover the Billy
that i've come to know, and love and to recognize
his talent and to appreciate, his humanity and that hopefully
he'll have that opportunity to connect with the world as a.
Speaker 7 (50:32):
Freeman soon this is TWO things i want people. To
understand rollful convictions is. An epidemic in twenty, twenty one
we had one hundred and seventy three exonerations that were
recognized By National. Registered exonerations twenty, twenty two we already
(50:53):
have one hundred and. Seventy three billy should be added
to that list in the. Near future our system can't
function if we keep convicting, innocent people and when there's
evidence that somebody was, denied justice we let them languish
in prison day after day.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
After day.
Speaker 7 (51:17):
The day has to Come where billy gets his day.
For JUSTICE and i look forward to the Day, where,
mark myself our students can be waiting outside of a
prison somewhere like we have for four other individuals To
watch billy walk out.
Speaker 4 (51:33):
Of prison i'm not just somebody who's saying, they're innocent.
You know i'm somebody who can show You that. I'm
innocent and, TO me i feel like that shitting night people,
to say you, know what let me go to bat for.
This guy, You know, i'll get, you know letters from, people,
Saying hey i'm praying, for You and, i'm, like, okay well,
YOU know i appreciate, the PRAYERS but i need you to,
(51:53):
speak out, you know because you need those voices in
high places to be able to hear that you. Do
CARE and i feel like the more people who show that,
they care the more the system is going to have
to care and gonna have to give us the testing
that we're looking for and allow the evidence to be
the thing that motivates you to want to go out
there and fight for me to want to go. Out
(52:14):
there and, you know every time you're on, social media
instead of posting about the new foods, you're eating to
be able, to, say hey you, know What Free billy.
Allen period, you Know, in november we'll be going TO,
d c, you know to basically do a MARCH on
dc to present. My Case and i'm hoping that people
start raising their voice and have an influence when we
(52:34):
do file our Petition to biden to be able to make,
him say you, know what we're always asking another country
to do right by. Their citizens we fail this guy.
Right here let us do the right thing now and
return him to. His FAMILY and I guess i'm going
to read you SOMETHING that i think will help you
kind of GATHER who i am in. My journey and
(52:55):
it's Called long soldier to find myself engaged in the
conflict that some have deemed to be a battle between
good and evil in a desire who they have labeled.
The latter this battle is not One where thunderu's word
will be heard fought about a stench of gun smoke,
charred flesh nor where blood stains will tak the same
round with footsteps travel to. The, froe no this battle
(53:18):
is one that is rooted in the blood lines and
bloodshed that painted the, stripes red and in the blue
sky there weighed, fifty stars which are a time saluted
or draped over the caskets the. Fallen, heroes NOW because
i know that there are those who like to take
one's word out of context with, Malicious, intent no there's
no way in my claiming the role. Of hero i'm
(53:38):
just one who has been wrongfully imprisoned and who wishes
to defend myself against those who have brought this battle to,
my doorstep and in, DOING so i plan to defend
myself against, the, lies misrepresentation and advances to take my
life into pretense. Of, justice NOW after i expose, this
injustice if you then deem my actions to be that of,
(53:58):
a hero know that IT is i who will not
make such. A claim this battle will take place on
what many have deemed to be, sacred ground or what
some have said to be the foundation of, our society
without which will cause chaos and leave in its. Path
destruction and that battleground Is the constitutionist amendments to oversee,
(54:21):
this battle to ensure that it's conducted without a hint, of,
bias favoritism or that it will be tainted with the
temptation of power or. Financial Gain Is lady, justice yet to,
my disbelief though she is supposed to stand out front
of the symbol of, FUNDAMENTAL fairness i could have SWORN
that i saw her tip the scales of justice in
favor of, my foes who already have, superior, power resources
(54:45):
and who attack without. Malicious FORETHOUGHT though i know that
the odds are, AGAINST me i do not waive her on,
my STANCE and i hold tight to the hilt of
my sword of truth, and evidence where my evidence is
the material which it has been. FOR it i close,
my eyes say, a PRAYER and i can only Hope
that god Hear my please is out those stones, that
(55:06):
golive and IT is i who am the. Lone soldier.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Thank you for Listening To. Wrongful conviction you can listen
to this and All the Lava for good podcasts one
week early and ed free by Subscribing to Lava For
good Plus On. APPLE podcasts i want to thank our,
Production Team connor Hall And, kathleen fink as well as
my fellow Executive Producers, Jeff Kempler, kevin Wartis And. Jeff
cliber the music in this production was supplied by THREE
time oscar Nominated Composer. Jay ralph be sure to follow
(55:39):
us across all social media Platforms at Lava for good
And At. Wrongful conviction you can also follow Me on
Instagram At It's. Jason Flamm wrongful conviction is a Production
of Lava For good podcasts and Association With Signal Company.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Number one we've worked hard to ensure that all facts
reported in this show. Are accurate the views and opinions
expressed by the individuals featured in this show are her
own and do not necessarily reflect Those of Lava for
good
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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