Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 49: The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
That's right, because it's Wednesday, it's Rewind and today we're
recapping episode forty nine. At the time, we named it
The Great Guy Lawtime New Year's Spectacular.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
I like it.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
It should be a little longer.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
So this episode came out December twenty eighth, twenty sixteen.
That's the day your holiday trip to visit your parents
should end, but you always stay two extra days.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
And then let's listen to the intro of episode forty nine.
You're going to do something, don't half asset.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Speaking of which.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
This is my favorite murder. Did you get that's Stephen?
Are we recording the show?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh my god, oh my god, welcome to my favorite murder?
End of twenty sixteen episode. This is the end of
this fucking shit pole of a year. Now, if you
had a great year, congrage you fucking relations how.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Did you do it? Press stop and go have fun
with your and god fuck yourself. Fus our new musical?

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, oh my god, speaking up, did you hear the
song that a techno song that a dude made?

Speaker 3 (01:31):
What of our pot? You haven't heard this? No? Oh
my god, of our podcast. Okay, hold on.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
I feel so such guilt for the amount of things
people do and make and whatever that I'm always like,
oh I missed that three months ago.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Well you're gonna die because this is the best thing
that's ever happened. You're ready for this? Yes, you all
ready for this?

Speaker 4 (01:51):
Done that?

Speaker 3 (01:51):
None done.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
This is from Alex Alex J. Squire on Twitter. Oh
that name sounds familiar to me, and it's not working.
Why isn't it working? There's just a photo of his
cat and you press play. This isn't fucking and Okay.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
John Wayne booking John Wayne's book a live episode.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
John Wayne's book, God fucking John.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Oh what John Wayne's book? Oh my god? What did
even miss that one? I can't stop smiling. No, are
you saying? Who that's announcing? You announcing the Chicago Live show?
Who you're doing?

Speaker 1 (02:47):
And I and you go John, and I go, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
It just goes and goes like that. That is thank you.
Alex J. Squier.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Oh my god, motherfucker, are you friends with Diplow?

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Because that was incredible. It's the new hit.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
You're hearing a very familiar last we can't ignore. Notice
a lot of you know and love.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
We actually have in our wrap down twenty sixteen Holiday Spectacle,
Anything Goes and who the fuck knows our friend and
our guest, mister Guy Brandon. Hello, good to be here,
so excited. I want that track so bad. I have
a dance track from the Eight Days. It is Margaret
Thatcher's speeches noo.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
An acid dance song.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
No, oh my god.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
I love this so much. You guys are also astoundingly
lucky with your fand oh, for fuck's sake, like you're
like your people say.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
It and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but like it's crazy,
it's weird, it's crazy, to which.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Their response to all of this is she does described
a brutal murder. I need to make this a project.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes, well, actually I have something to surprise you with,
Karen what more, Yes, because.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
You know me hearing my voice with techno music behind
it is like that made twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
For me totally. So I mean, this year's a fucking bus.
You can carry it on in next year, that's right.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
So I got a package in my PO box and
it just said it was to me. So I opened
it and I'm sorry and I don't worry better. That
made me frat like literally almost made me cry. I
was really depressed today and then I read it and
it made me feel better. It's basically this girl who's like,
thank you guys so much. I went to Chicago show.
I also told my mom now secretly listens to the
podcast and she's a she's lives in Alabama and she's

(04:35):
a quote rich white Republican Southern Baptist mother and it's
a closet fan and she can't.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
Tell anyone about it. Yes, what's her name?

Speaker 1 (04:43):
When the girl found out that we were doing Chicago,
and she said, immediately bought my mom playing ticket to
Chicago to go.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Name was Chelsea? Why? And look what she gave us?
Open this? Well, oh sh she works at a company.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
She works at like a beauty product company, and she
sent us a whole whole line of sweet honesty.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
No, oh my god, oh my god. Is this the
original or is this how they probably market it?

Speaker 1 (05:09):
I think it's still around those sweet honesty from the
live show, but it looks so seventies, I know, but
they've found sweet honesty.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Yeah, No, is that a real thing? Was it a
real It's real?

Speaker 3 (05:19):
That's why that girl had though.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
It was this thing she had Basically it was like,
you know, loves baby soft perfume from the seventies, like
if you had a T shirt of that. This was
Avon's version, which was sweet honesty.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
Let me see if I can find her God.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
And one of these looks like, oh my god, wait
this this is what they sell now because this looks
like the ordorant. Yes, no old deodorant.

Speaker 4 (05:41):
It looks like theodorant from the seventies. It's this is
I mean, this is the podcast that made me try
to figure out how my mom could listen to podcast.
She loves True Crimes so much.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
We gotta get Debbie on board. I don't know how
we're gonna do it.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Remember when you got to buy your parents and iPod
to get them like download a bunch of fucking ship.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
Drawer she put in a drawer.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
I honestly feel like I need to go Greatest Hits
and burn some CDs for her.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
I think that you should. That is the way that
CDs is easier.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
It's not a lot of having to touch things, plug
things in the same burned some CDs for Debbie at
the same time, though my dad figured out how to
listen to podcasts, and that was a mistake.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
I'm trying to find Chelsea's Twitter because I want to
give her a Hi'm Marty.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
My dad figured out how to listen to podcasts and
then decided this one wasn't for him.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Oh my sun, listen. It's okay. He's more of a
nervous guy like I just want to listen to men time.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
I love it. Yeah, women are so boring? Can I
spray some sweet honest apps?

Speaker 2 (06:47):
You?

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Okay? You had a huff it? Actually I got it.

Speaker 4 (06:52):
My grandma's Avon lady showing off was one of the
most exciting things that could happen ladies.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
It just makes her think of Edward scissorhand. Yeah, right,
that was a real thing.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
I remember doing what was it wasn't It wasn't Avon,
but there was another one that was like that, or
maybe it was Avon. We went to a party of
it at my aunt Jean's house one time, and the
way this lady was explaining how you had to buy
all of this product because if you used a bunch
of different brands on your face together, it was like

(07:22):
chemical warfare on your face. I was twelve years old,
sitting at the table going bullshit or everyone would have
their face burned by now.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
While year old Karen was like, she would just call
you out on your shit, Amazales.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
It's smart. It's smart wording. It was very effective.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
It wasn't Jaffra, but it was like one of those
brands where it was kind of like it's a free
standing beauty, uh you know, kind of slightly Pyramids.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
Gamed the number of women from my high school who've
ended up in multi level marketing project.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, okay, her name is Chelsea Young and she's on
Twitter as Chelsea and then l E E A U
and she's a fucking she's from Naperville, Nahborville, Illinois. Yeah,
she's a where big oden crops from.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Oh, oh my god, is it horrible?

Speaker 2 (08:12):
No, No, it's good. Let me but I just literally
inhaled it. She said at the oh, that's like baby
powders powder. It smells like baby powder.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
It is like a diaper.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
It smells like it's adorable fifteen year olds.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
It smells like a teenage baby, which is what everybody wants,
is what me.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Men are attracted to, normal heterosexual manner attracted to. And
she also said that during the during the live show,
her friend that they were with, how to go outside,
she was sick with the flu how to go outside
and barf in the parking lot, but came back in
and fucking stuck it out. Yes, like she was like
we were fucking And she sent me a photo of
her of them, and she's.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
With the flu of Budweiser Tall boys.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Because I've had that same sickness several times in my life.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Okay, guy is gonna lat is gonna law us? Oh yeah,
that's so, that's what we brought here on those pretenses.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
So like you guys, you guys talk about law things
a lot like you talk about murder. You're talking about murder.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
We talk about them with a lot of confidence, even
that we fucking don't know anything.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
It's true. There's what it's theorizing up.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
Do you guys have any idea what the difference between
first and second grade murderers?

Speaker 3 (09:21):
Intent one?

Speaker 4 (09:22):
Oh okay, I.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Don't do them.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
Sorry, you're right, there is intent level. It is basically
so like first murder requires premeditation, right, but that isn't
really planning. That's mostly just like being in a right
enough mind to be like even for a moment like
I want to.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
Kill this person and then doing it like immediately after.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, I mean you do need to like both have
the men's ray and the act happened.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
What's that?

Speaker 4 (09:53):
At the same time, I don't know that state of mind,
state of mind, so.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
I thought was your period, real nasty period?

Speaker 4 (10:02):
So the second second degree murder is horrible. Second degree
murder is either a like your passions were raised by
like the paradigm is you see your wife fucking somebody
else and you either kill him or her, or like

(10:23):
the moment in the moment in the moment, or like
you're like somebody starts a fight with you and they
don't use deadly force if you are trying to defend
yourself and escalate, so you and you kill them. Those
are second dream murder things. But second degree murder is
used for like the worst things like that dude on
Ellen or not on Island? What was the Jones Jones yes?

(10:49):
Or the guy who killed Harvey Milk.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
I almost don't Dan Brown, don't talk about it. Almost
did that one?

Speaker 4 (10:56):
Okay, I'm good talk about it.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
It's really good.

Speaker 4 (10:58):
But it was He basically said, like I was so
freaked out by being around gay people and I had
eaten so many teople that I wasn't in a right
state of mind and.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
So and like also like, Okay, he got fired and
he got pissed off and came back.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
So isn't that premeditation?

Speaker 4 (11:13):
Though, I mean, it all depends on what the jury believes.
And the thing is is, like the jury is so
willing when it comes to like a gig guy hit
on me and then I killed him, means you're doing
six years instead of like I decided to kill some
gay guy, which is like fifteen to life.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
Wow, you know, like if they can, if they can
empathize with.

Speaker 4 (11:35):
You, yes, and so like like second degree murder is
this terrible situation where like it's completely screwed over from
women because in the like seventies, they tried to sell
this idea of battered wife syndrome. The thing is that
like burning Bed, Burning.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
Bed, what's up?

Speaker 2 (11:53):
I don't that the fair Faucet made for TV movie
called Burning Bed based on a real story, based on
a real story, this woman was so terribly abused. I
remember watching it with my mom and at one point,
I mean they it was incredibly graphic of basically showing
what domestic violence really looks like. And it's incredibly intense.
But it was on at like eight o'clock at night
on ABC or whatever, and I remember at one point

(12:14):
my mom goes, I think you should go to bed,
you get it, and of course not, I was just
like out of my way, lady, like standing closer to
the TV. But it was basically to try to show
people this whole thing of like, yeah, knock your wife
around it shut her up.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Because it's like, in my mind when I was a kid,
it was like, it's romantic because he loves you so
much and it's so passionate and you must just have.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
This intense relationship.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
And then you see the reality of it and you're like,
this is just brutal, fucking it's ullying and awfulness.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Cracking someone across the mouth yeah because she's lippy is
not a fun thing to say to your friends in
the bar, when actually it's a horrible pattern because you
were abused, and once it starts, it can't stop because
you're in this like in a rage fit and you
beat a person up like they're a man.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
And then if you when you're older and you're in
a good relationship. And the thought of, like Vince, when
we get in a fight, which happens him just fucking
smacking me because he got like that would be that
would change my world. And the fact that this is
a normal thing for people bothers me so much.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
But the thing is, what's so fascinating is.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
That like really quick, yes, so at night she burnt
his bed while he was in it. Then she got
off right when she went to that's a corboy.

Speaker 4 (13:23):
The thing is like the how we learned it in
law school, like basically is the terrible thing is for
like second degree murder, it is generally a dude grabbing
a gun right there, or it has to be sort
of like within the same window of time that his
second dream murder sort of like active passion happens. But
women who've been beaten don't do that. They stew and

(13:45):
then three weeks later they for three years, yeah, and
they just finally like break and like shoot him or
burn the bet or whatever. And like so uniformly battered
wife syndrome was rejected by the courts as a thing,
but like it's.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
It's almost like I feel like it's even worse because
they're going through years and years of constant torture and
having their minds fucked with because they never know how
if someone's going to react, and so they're not even
in their right mind, you know, when they're planning it
well beforehand.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
The thing's so creepy about all of this is that
so many of these ideas were built in the sixteen
hundreds in England, when like things that were very immediately understood,
but the notion of sort of like a long simmering
like psychological torture nobody understood because they died when they
were thirty four.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, and also that men so had the mic that
it was like, well, they would have to understand how
a woman would interpret abuse and approach it as opposed
to how it would feel or how they would react
to it, which they would be like, well, that's not
how it's done as opposed to that's not how maybe men.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
Do it or how to the individual it was.

Speaker 4 (14:57):
Being your wife was legal, like being your wife it's
your Bible, yeah, in the Bible.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Can I say this really quick, just so everyone knows,
Guy Brandham is a lawyer.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
The reason that we're having them.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Talking about some credential we know all this is that
you are legally a lawyer.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
I graduated from the University of Minnesota Law School in
two thousand and one. It's amazing, which means I am
an expert on the law of murder and other things
in the same way that Karen and Georgia are.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Experts, in a much better way. No, wait, finish, So
I've always done this.

Speaker 4 (15:28):
I haven't done this in fifteen years.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
So this is basically just.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
What I remember.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Oh good, get good.

Speaker 4 (15:33):
But like from that, let's hop on over to murder's
best buddy, rape and understand that like in in common law,
in sort of like the origin of our entire legal system.
It's a horrible construction of this situation where it has

(15:54):
to be a violent act, it has to be against
someone other than your wife, like that, you know, the
old school laws. And there have been many laws that
tried to sort of like.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Update things I hate, like that intimidation, you know, and
a woman going along with things to not get murdered
shows that she you know, like she didn't fight, so
it wasn't really right, you know, like that kind of
thing where her pants would have been hard to take off,
so she must have been consenting.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
So basically, one interesting thing that you guys like comes
up on the show a lot is in some states
you still have rape laws that have been updated, but
in other states there was this thing in the fifties
called the Model Penal Code where they sort of tried
to make the law reflect the world that we live
in now a little bit more. And so that's what
the difference between like first degree, second degree and third

(16:43):
degree sexual assault are. And these are very serious issues
and it's weird to hear a man talk about them.
And I'm sorry. I had the creepiest krim law professor
who was like a man in his sixties, and he
was constantly saying things that you were like, don't say
it like that, don't stop. He was before Can I
tell you? Can I tell you the two worst of them?

Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Always right, Oh, yes, he's a number one fans.

Speaker 4 (17:11):
There's no rape by swindle, which is essentially saying if
you promise to pay a prostitute and then at the
end you're like, Nope, that's not right, which is like
classic common law in many states have sort of like
figured stuff like that out.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
And then the other one was don't do the voice again.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
I'm sorry, No, I love it, for when it comes
to sexual violence and age, there comes a point where
mental state doesn't matter if you did it. So like
basically you can't say but she looked eighteen, but you
cannot say but she looked thirteen, which was the most

(17:55):
chilling thing to hear.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
I don't understand.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
So wait, so you couldn't say that she looked of age,
and so you didn't know, and so it's not statute
very right.

Speaker 4 (18:04):
One thing I should be saying is this man was
a leading rape expert, Like he was this old like
sixties more ways than once sixty five year old slander
slander white guy like he went to Harvard, was like
had written like several books about it, but was talking
about it this way. And it was just like, no,
that's what's wrong with the law is all of these

(18:24):
laws were written by that guy.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, talk about fucking statute. I mean what comes up?
And Karen's always like stop it. But statute of limitations.
It's just like my biggest and like anything but murder
has statute limitations, seems like yes.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
And like that comes to an idea of like after
a certain period of time, you like you it's after
you find out that the injury occurred, does the statute
of limitations?

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay, twenty years later you can be like I got
raped and there wouldn't have passed the statute of limitation.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
Well, the thing is, you knew for all of that
time if it was something that like you didn't know
that something had been stolen from you, or you know,
if if there was a body and it was never
reported and like we found the body and okay, related
to nothing, then you have like three or five or

(19:19):
however many years. I guess it's murder. So that would
its just.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
I feel like someday we're all going to be like,
the fuck was that about? Like kidnapping?

Speaker 3 (19:29):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
I have a question for you that I've always wondered,
like about myself, And what I would do is if
you had to go to trial for something big, let's say,
would you want a jury or would you just want
a judge?

Speaker 4 (19:40):
First of all, do you guys understand what the difference
between those two things are?

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Not really the amount of people robes. Yes, one is
a jury and one is a judge.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
So the thing is, the idea is is that in
all situations you have a finder of law and a
finder of fact. So like a jury, the finder of
law is is the judge because they're official and they
know what the law is. And finder a fact. You
can either have it be a judge or you can
have it be a jury. And like, the horrible thing

(20:10):
about having gone to law school is that I kind
of would trust a judge as a finder of fact more.
But the thing is, in a criminal case, you can't
get a judge as a finder of fact.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Really.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
Yeah, well, you have a right to a jury trial,
so I mean, could you waive one? See this is
how much I don't remember this stuff.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
And the thing is, I mean you personally am well,
I know.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
The thing is that I know, I guess I would
go with a jury because the thing is is, if
I had done it, a jury is easier to like,
you know, confuse about stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Totally.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
Yeah, And you know, there's the wonderful thing that we
have this presumption of innocence and we have a thing
against double jeopardy, which means, you know, if you just
get them to even just mistrial three times, then you're off.
Like one of the things that's so interesting about listening
to your podcast is this strong presumption of innocence, which
is a thing I love, does lead to a lot

(21:06):
of people getting off who we then later find out
we're horrible people.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah. I mean it's so shitty because it's like there's
double jeopardy.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
But like, yet, just because this person was terrible and
molested children doesn't mean he killed this other kid.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
Yeah they Oh, but it's still shouldn't they.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
Oh, there's a great thing that circumstantial evidence is evidence. Like,
have you guys ever talked to like I guess you
guys do with like Dana and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, there's a lot of cases that we talked about
there just try it on circumstantial events.

Speaker 4 (21:34):
Yeah. Sure, And you do have that thing of is
it beyond a reasonable doubt, which is like kind of
good because it means you need a lot of circumstantial evidence.
But there's also the weird thing of like it is
just these twelve people kind of deciding it, which means
that like, jury instructions are always the most important thing.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
Jury instructions are like a judge laying out what are
the like five clean questions that you need to ask
to figure out whether this was the person who.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
Committed the murder, and do they do that when everything
is done, before they go to start to decide, or
at the beginning, before the case is presented.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
Okay, so basically the end of the trial, both sides
will submit a set of jury instructions these are the
ones that we want them to be, and then judge
will basically between the two of those sort of like
synthesize jury instructions that he feels or she feels best,

(22:33):
sort of like reflect the law as it exists, and
then submit those to the jury.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
That would be great and wonderful if it wasn't for
the fact that the prosecutors are doing anything in their means,
including makeup, you know, false stories to get their client off.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
You mean defense attorneys.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
No prosecution, the prosecution. I guess both.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
You say, get clients off.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
I mean sorry, get their to eat Okay, yeah, the
defense clients off, also the prosecution to get this person charged.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
And the thing is that in my head I'm always like,
like the prosecution has such a better position because like
before anything else, a DA gets to say to is
this person clearly not guilty? Like a DA can totally
just say I'm not going to prosecute them, and like
they kind of have the opatu, the apparatus of the

(23:27):
state behind them. And defense attorneys when it's not people
versus O. J. Simpson like so much of the time
are like they're worst paid, like for everything except for
white collar crimes. They are like worse paid and they
have like worse support and everything. And I do have
more sympathy than I probably should for defense attorneys who

(23:50):
are like trying to like get somebody off through technicalities.
Like let's never forget that in the late nineteen seventies,
Ruth Bader Ginsburg was going to the South to people
who had been convicted convicted by all male juris and
had death sentences and stuff, and saying, let's reconsider his

(24:14):
sentence because there were no women on this jury. Wow,
that's why you guys have to serve jury duty now,
because Ruth Bader Ginsburg made you equal. But in the
process kind of got some assholes like a second chance
even though they did what they uh working in.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
My mind and this might fucking I might be fucking
putting my foot in my mouth, but I'm more dubious
of the prosecution than I am.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
At the defense. Yeah, I mean, but it is. But
also defense have so much, so much pushing them to
like fight for technicalities.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, where like I just feel like.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Because they're kind of there to just go, they cut
down to the bare bones of like, look, this guy's this,
and he's gonna look guilty. How do I how do
I cut down on how guilt he looks and just
get the lowest number that we could possibly get?

Speaker 4 (25:03):
And the thing is is, like you do? I mean,
it is like defense attorneys like shouldn't they all be
plea bargaining? Like I just feel like good attorneys in
any situation really should be coming to some sort of
agreement beforehand, because going to a trial is just chaos.
You don't know what those people on that jury are

(25:24):
going to say.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
It's crazy, it's crazy crazy.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Please, let's never be in that position, guys, let's store
very best.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
Just do you want me to answer the question from
last week? The key key question for onewer?

Speaker 3 (25:37):
Yes? Yes? What was do we repeat the question for everyone?

Speaker 4 (25:41):
Well, it's your question, Okay.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
My question was I said life imprisonment. A sentence of
life imprisonment isn't life in prison?

Speaker 4 (25:50):
Right?

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Well?

Speaker 2 (25:50):
It came up first not to be recumentative. Yeah, the
first thing you said was life in prison means ten years? Well, yeah,
which is when I said, you're full of shit.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
I meant I mean ten years exactly, but yes, I
meant like that was that's how we started talking about it,
where we're like and then I was like, what the
fuck is going on?

Speaker 4 (26:06):
In the nineteen seventies, Georgia comes close to being true,
like really, I love it place. It's not remotely true anymore,
but it is so like basically, so you have either
giving somebody a number of years, and sometimes you get
the ridiculous number of years and you're like, why are

(26:27):
they putting this person in prison for five hundred and
seventy two years? And that is because they have committed
a bunch of crimes, but of a sort that's a life.
Imprisonment is not an option, and they're trying to put
the person in prison. And then there's regular life from
prison and life in prison without parole, and regular life
in prison. And like the seventies, it used to be
that like after as little as like four or five years,

(26:51):
you could be up for parole.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Which why use the word life r that's like a
time in prison.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
It's ridiculous. It's it's like a statement that means nothing
means nothing. That's so confusing.

Speaker 4 (27:04):
So what happened is because people kept getting off and
going no one knew it right, yelling some more people yes,
But you started getting these laws that were called truth
and Sentencing laws that basically said, and I think a
majority of states have passed them, and a lot of
states now and the federal government have the option of
life imprisonment without parole. But the thing of saying that

(27:25):
you have to serve at least eighty five percent of
your sentence and for life in prisonment creating a certain
like you can't even be under consideration for parole until
like fifteen years.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, but that's still like if you get life in
prison and then you and then with the possibility of
parole in twenty years, and so then you get you know,
fifteen years or whatever eighty five percent of twenty.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Is, then then that's you get.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
You've spent sixteen years in prison with the stal murder
and getting and getting life.

Speaker 4 (27:56):
Like the story of this kind of is supposed to
be that like, but this guy was being a model prisoner,
being so great, and there's also this thing of like
good behavior time, where like the person in charge of
the prison can like give credit time to you because
you've been like behaving well. But that is that thing

(28:19):
of like is prison reflective of how you're going to
behave in real life?

Speaker 3 (28:23):
I mean, of course not.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
And this is now we're getting back into the Mary
Vincent case, where that's what happened to the man who
attacked her and viciously maimed her, where he was so
good in prison that for I can't remember his first crime,
whatever it was, it was probably murdering a woman or something.
They spent four years in jail and then got out

(28:46):
almost kill her.

Speaker 4 (28:47):
But let's talk about the awesome and cool ways that
you can punish people for being assholes. Not okay, okay,
So George and I he says, right up, your George
and I are getting more champagne in us. So this conversation,
let's how they getting further.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Let's do it.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
Okay, So let's first of all, let's just go back
to what does it take to make a murder? What
do you think it takes to make a murder? We
already talked about dark intent and knife. Oh you make
your fucking joke about the dark. But let me tell you.
For burglary and arson, yeah, common law, they had to

(29:21):
happen at night. What if you just broke into someone's.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
House, does that mean that common law? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (29:25):
Common law means the way that like the law originated
in England way way back when, but was still the
valid law in the United States until like in places
the twentieth century are stupid they had a chain ship
because we were stupid. But like like in the same
kind of olden times where you could not legally be

(29:48):
considered to have raped your wife if you said somebody's
house on fire in the daytime, you were fine, that's
the best.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
And what they said it was a mistake or something,
or like they just this is to all of this.
You weren't being sneaky all of it.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
Yes, it was just like, well, the dude who owned
the house really should have been watching it better, now, shouldn't.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
It was an asshole.

Speaker 4 (30:09):
No, that's great, And so those that's all the law
that just exists without us doing any work about it.
And then eventually, like state legislatures had to come along
and be like, well we should do something about this
because they keep stealing during the daytime.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
And everyone's like, but it's tradition and this is how
they did it.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
But there's lights at night now they know that it's
nineteen eighty four.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
Okay, what else do you need? Like, what else do
you need from murder?

Speaker 3 (30:33):
Oh? Intent?

Speaker 4 (30:36):
So we said intense shit? What else you can steal?

Speaker 3 (30:38):
My answer? Did you say intense intent? Because it kills somebody? Okay,
that's another thing. Okay, this was something to talk about
a lot.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Is I think it's fucking insane that attempted murder isn't
try it as murder?

Speaker 4 (30:53):
Okay, that's what we're getting towards. I was just listening
to an episode where you were ranting about that, and
so I was, I don't rat so I was talking
about that.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
That's hilarious.

Speaker 4 (31:01):
So basically, there are three kinds of crimes where you
don't have to do the act. So the thing is
is that, like, the thing that makes murder murder is
that you commit an act, a violent act that deprives
someone of their life. And the magic is the difference

(31:23):
between depriving someone of their life and not is huge.
I could punch the shit out of Stephen, right, no, no, no,
and if he survived, then that would just be battery
and assault, and I would go to jail for like
six months.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Is that because they can't prove your intent or even.

Speaker 4 (31:43):
If you was, no, Like the thing is it requires
the same intent. Intent doesn't mean I want to kill
Stephen if the exact same punch, Yeah, it's just like
fuck that dude, Yeah punch and he's still alive afterwards.
It's battery and maybe go to jail for like three
to six months or something, the exact same punch if

(32:04):
like you know, it's they call it the is it
glass Stevens syndrome, delicate Stephen syndrome, under delicate Stephen syndrome,
and he goes down and he's dead. I go to
jail for fifteen years to life. Yeah, like it is just.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Just because Stephen's face couldn't take it, Yes, it is.

Speaker 4 (32:23):
It is just that much of a difference, just because.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
He loves cats, just because he mustache didn't reflect the
buck u And it's a little bit crazy.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
And an attempted murder basically just comes down to, like,
attempted murder is something you just kind of like tack
on top of the fact that it was fundamentally just
a battery.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Well, Okay, but what if you shoot someone in the
head and they survive, or if you fucking stab someone
and leave them for dead and they survive.

Speaker 4 (32:47):
Well, I mean, the thing is is that it is
the interesting you have to like sust into a person's
head that it was actual attempted murder as opposed to
just like a battery, and they can probably sue you
for a lot of money.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
Point where she put something in someone's body, they it's
sucking it.

Speaker 4 (33:03):
Okay, aggravated battery you said, I mean this is putting
something KILLI is actually a legal concept, and it's like
the difference between first degree sexual assault and second to
gree sexual assault in a lot of states, did you
use a killie? Did you use a chillie thing? Oh wow,
you were raping her? Or like in some cases the

(33:25):
difference is between like intercourse and just sort of like
you know.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
For sexual assaults when the.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
Person all of the other things that when consensual are
fun but not sex.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
You say that we're going to get in trouble for
so let's say, Okay, yes, it's terrible, and what you
just said, no I think I agree. No, No, no,
I just mean like explaining what the difference is is
going to piss someone off because it's such a fucking
it's so okay, Yes, anyways.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
We're just talking about the facts of what it is.

Speaker 4 (33:53):
It's not to the point is is that my intent
doesn't matter, Like my spec scific intent to kill doesn't
matter nearly as much as what happens to Stephen. And
so with attempted murder, it is just the fact that
at the end of the day, Stephen's alive, can go
to law school one day, maybe, you know, just.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
Like really makes something of himself finally, really will two
other incoate crimes.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
That is, they're not complete. There's no there's not all.
There is an act in them, but not all of.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
The act, like the all of the act would mean
end up dead.

Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yes, okay, they're called solicitation and conspiracy.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
I like it. What do you think those things are selling?
Is solicitations? Okay, selling your body? Citation? I think is
trying to get someone to kill someone else. Yes, yeah, dude,
you're like it's like five and zero, right, It's.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Almost like I just watched TV all day and read
fucking murders all night, which I do.

Speaker 4 (34:54):
The thing about solicitation that's wonderful is so all you
need is the intent to want that crime to occur
and an act to get somebody else to do it,
and you are at that point guilty. Like the crime
that comes or the sentence that comes with solicitation is
the same as murder.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
It's the same as murder.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
So you accidentally ask like an undercover cop to kill
your husband, it's like you killed your husband.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
But what do you mean about accidentally like you undercover cop? Okay,
the undercover cop was the accident.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
He tripped upon a fucking you fell down into a
CoP's here.

Speaker 4 (35:28):
But the thing is, if you said, like, god, I
love it, if Vince weren't around tomorrow, you didn't have
intent at that time. So but if you went to
an undercover cop and it was like, look, Vince has
been the worst, and you like wanted it and meant it,
then yes, you're going to jail for exactly as much
as if you had attempted to murder Vince.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Yes, her hand I have my hand up.

Speaker 4 (35:52):
You should?

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Oh So does that mean that when you catch a
person on tape, like if someone calls someone that's it's over,
Like lad, it always seems like in you know, forensic
files in twenty twenty. It's like the second you make
that deal on a phone call.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
So the act. So in a murder, the act is
putting the stabby thing in, yeah, But in solicitation, the
act is just the call. And the thing is is
at that moment, it's enough and you are you are
an attempted murderer. And if the other person did end
up murdering the person, you're a murderer at that point
in time.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
Oh, you're the murderer even if you didn't.

Speaker 4 (36:29):
Commit The thing is is you're guilty of solicitation of murder,
which carries the same punishment as a murder. Interesting, now,
what do you think conspiracy is?

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Conspiracy to commit murder is planning it but without a hitman.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
None of these were like the Diya.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
The thing is is if like if you if you
knew that Karen was going to try to what was.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
Getting hurt in this bodas not real life.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
If you knew that Karen was going to try to
kill me and you helped her planet and figure it out,
and basically sort of like conversations that are like in
the direction of that happening, that conversation is enough that
when Karen kills me, you are all guilty of conspiracy
of murder.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
And I can say that, well, I thought she was kidding.
I didn't think she was serious. And it's for a
jury to decide the thing is is me. It is
for the judge to say, if she thought she was kidding, legitimately,
that's not conspiracy for murder.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
And it's the jury. It's not a question of admissibility.
It is a question of just like, legally, that's a
mistake that absolves you of your men's rea, your mind state,
and and so. But it's for the jury to be,
like to look Georgia Hardstarck in the eye and be like,
she bullshitting us. And if they think that you're not bullshitting,

(37:56):
then you are guilty of the same.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Punishment in my hand up done because that okay, So
that is this thing that's now coming up all the
time where uh, people are only now realizing that everybody
doesn't react the same way. So if they look someone
in the eye in the courtroom, there's a lot of
these crime true remembers where it's like she was icy cold,

(38:19):
and you know, how dare a mother of two be
this way?

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Therefore, she's guilty. She burst into tears. Yeah, she did
not act like a woman quote unquote, and so she's
guilty or whatever.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
So it's that thing where there people are now realizing
if a person doesn't act the way you have imagined
a person under stress would act, or a person that
was sad or guilty or you know, regretful or anything.
This like all that projection, but instead it's like every individual.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Deals with that.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
And so when I watch confession or when I watch
interview or what's it called when you talk to a perpetrator, uh, investigat?
Uh you mean in court? No, in like the police room, interrogation, interrogation,
thank you. I'm like trying to study that person and
every single thing they say, but you just can't fucking know.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
No, And we're back.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
I had forgotten about this episode and I love it
so much. Was it was great, such a great little segment,
And we always talked about doing it more and never
did it.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yeah, should we talk about why we did it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (39:26):
So I was working on talk show The Game Show,
which is Guy Branham, who is our guest for this
entire hour. He was the host of that show and
I was the head writer at the time, and I
was on it and I was trying to finish the
story I was doing that week. I wish I could
remember it, I won't be able to, but I just
couldn't finish it because I did work. And so I

(39:49):
called you and I was like, yeah, I don't know
what to tell you, but I didn't finish my story.
And I was like, I simply don't have a story
to do, so I can't do that, and we w
back and forth. I remember walking up and down the
alleyway outside of the writer's room and then I was like, okay,
hold on, give me one second. And then I went
inside and I was like, hey, look, where fucked Can

(40:12):
you please come and be on the show?

Speaker 3 (40:14):
And Guy's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'm like really,
because he listened to he was a big fan.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
He talked about it all the time, and if we
talked about stuff that was like why did they do
it this way or that way? He would always tell
me at work. Yeah, So I was like, wait a second,
I think I can make up for the fact that
I didn't do my homework get something going. So we're
still recording and it's not like a waste of time,
and then it turned out to be like this band

(40:40):
aid that was like one of the best episodes we've
ever done.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, it was so good. He really fucking killed it,
and that was very nice to them to come on.
There are a couple of stories that we mentioned in
this episode that we end up covering. So Guy brings
up the Jenny Jones murder case of Scott Ahmadure, which
I cover in episode forty Squad Go. And then you
mentioned the burning bed story that made for TV movie,

(41:05):
the story of Francine Hughes, and you covered that recently
in episode four sixty five. You're kidding yourself, sucked is
what it's called. So you can check those out. Just
kind of like a nice little teaser that we didn't
even know you would do.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
That's right, because all of these stories are kind of
hanging in the air around us, and it's like that.
I remember when I was this many years old and
saw this on TV inappropriately and it stayed with me forever.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
You knew all the answers. It was very nice, all right,
So should we get into some more of it. Let's
get into the second part of this law episode.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
One of the things that's interesting is that the idea
of how a person would behave is a legal interesting
legal standard of how it a reasonable person acts. So
the thing is is, let's say I was walking much
larger than Georgia. I was walking towards her menacingly. She

(42:07):
became terrified and thought I was going to try to
kill her, and she bludgeoned me with the Amy Suitorus
Crafts books that we just had the question for, like
the jury is A did she legitimately think I was
going to use deadly force against her? And B would
a reasonable person have thought I was going to use

(42:30):
deadly force against her? And that question of how does
a reason how would a reasonable person react is always
so problematic, as we saw with like Trayvon Martin and
so many situations where like we can put our minds
into the head of you know, uh, you know, white dude,
but we can't put our heads into the mind of

(42:52):
like black teenager.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
So my rule of pepper spray first and apologize later
is probably illegal.

Speaker 4 (42:59):
No, that kind of fine because it's non deadly force,
a non deadly force.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
You know.

Speaker 4 (43:05):
The wonderful thing about pepper spray is the difference between
deadly force and non deadly force is huge, and if
somebody is using non deadly force against like, if somebody
is not trying to kill you and you use and
you use any level of non deadly force to fine,
that is self defense. That is perfectly good self defense.

(43:27):
The thing is is you need the other guy, the
bad guy, to be attempting to could kill you, for
you kill.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Or like for you to sexually anything.

Speaker 4 (43:36):
You don't know what you don't it's I mean, the
terrible thing about the operation of the law as it
exists right now is that it does kind of require
that he or she be trying to could kill you
for you to cook, I could kill them. And if
it is. The thing is is that presumably if somebody
was coming at you to sexually assault you and was

(43:58):
being very physically intimidated, you understanding that as being deadly
forced and sort of understanding if I resist him enough,
this dude's gonna kill me. Yeah, that's that's understandable.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:09):
The other situation where you're allowed to use deadly force
even if they're not using deadly force is in.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
Your home right, Yeah, some states don't.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
Yes, it does very stafe by state. It does very
stafe by state. But generally there you know, there is
a duty to retreat in a lot of situations, but
you're by who. But like, if somebody's coming at you
and you have a way of getting away.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
From them, you have to you have the duty to retreat.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
I mean.

Speaker 4 (44:36):
The thing is that, like if they're using deadly force
against you, self defense is is fine. But like if
you have a clear way out, use your clear way out.
But nobody's expecting you to retreat from your home. Okay,
Like you get to maintain your home. Okay, that's so interesting.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
That's good to know.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, fucking h hide knives everywhere. That just reminded me
of just a quick anecdote.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
Do it.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Oh it was getting heavy.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Well, this is just an interesting thing of like being
in the home. And also we were talking earlier about
growing up in the country. My old roommate Maleva, grew
up in a town called Auburn, which is like twenty
minutes north of Sacramento. Beautiful and just a gorgeous, gorgeous
area and the old gold the gold Rush country and red.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
Woody kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Not red Woody because that's close to the ocean. This
is more but it's very foresty and hilly and just
a lot of houses. Every house is five miles away
from the other house. No, there's no such thing as
real neighbor. I don't think I've ever not shared a wall.
Oh yeah, that scares me. This might really make you uncomfortable.
Because so one night and they all grew up like that,
And my friend Lyva told me the story that she

(45:48):
one of her friends. It was, was home alone as
a teenager and got up to go to the bathroom
mill the mill of the night and her parents were
like away for the weekend, and she stepped into the
dark hallway and there was a man standing at the
other end of the hallway. So she just started making
the weirdest noise that she possibly could pose. Yes, like,

(46:11):
because she just was like it was just an instantaneous
decision where she's like totally alone, wherever the gun is,
she's nowhere near it, blah blah blah whatever. So she
just started like being crazy creepy, and it freaked this
guy out and he ran out of the house. Yes,
so smart, isn't that amazing?

Speaker 3 (46:29):
So smart?

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Because I am so I have this big fear that
I'm going to get attacked one day and you know
when you can't you're so freaked out, you can't scream.
Yes to not happens a lot in dreams, but it
actually happens when you just try to scream and your
voices gongas you're so scared.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Yes, Like, I'm so terrified that that's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Whenever I read a murder story where the woman just
starts screaming, I'm so impressed by that, Right, those instincts
are just like to do that, it's so impressive.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
It's crazy, and I think it was it was her
following her instinct. And it's also like when Maleva made
the noise for me, I was like, stop making that.
It's really weird, guttural. It was almost like it being
an animal, but it was almost like she's like, I'm
an animal that might attack you. And chances are when
you think about stuff like that, there was probably a
drug addict, like a local drug addict that was just
trying to get something he could sell for money for drugs,

(47:15):
and so he's just like, I'll just break into this
dark house and I'll get this thing and get out.
So he's probably high anyway, and then seeing some weird
thing at the end of the hallway making that noise.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
Like he probably stopped burgling. I like to think having.

Speaker 4 (47:30):
The peace of mind when you're in like probably the
most scared situation you're ever going to be in, to
play on the other person's sense of fear. It's just
so possessed.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
It's a very good idea. How can we What are
other ways we can do that?

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Well?

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Like sometimes when I walk the dogs and I'm scared
at night because I'm walking them in the dark, and
I'll like pass a house and then I'll look into
the window and I can see people, and then I'm like, oh, oh,
maybe I'm the creep Like I always think the creeps
behind me, but I.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
Could be the creepy.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
If they're not closing their fucking blinds, then they're they're
asking for it, right.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
But like, all it takes is the difference of being
a girl walking a dog is like I just step
behind this tree, and now I'm the weirdo or the
person across the street stas you standing behind a tree
looking in a window.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (48:16):
On a slightly related no, yes, yes, when you're a
gay guy walking down the street at night and a
woman starts to walk faster or any of the reactions
should the most normal reaction to a man walking behind
you in that way. It's so funny because I've talked
about his friends the inclination to Sometimes people I know

(48:39):
have started to.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Pretend to have a phone call.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
So that they can see it have gay voice.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Oh my, just yell, I'm gay.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
I mean I most frequently will start singing to just
be like, don't worry. After Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Thought you're gonna say, take the time to criticize her hair,
and then she knows she is not In any day
I think, Okay, I have.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
I have literally been in this situation where I giggled
at something and a woman's physical behavior on a street
was just like, oh on fig yeah, it was like, actually.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Sir, can you walk me in my car? Do you think?

Speaker 1 (49:28):
I always think like if I acknowledge someone and smile
at them and say hello or whatever, that it's I'm
letting them know that I am aware of my surroundings.
And so I'll stop and get my phone out and
let the person pass me and say hello to them,
and like not yes, can I.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
Just say this? I just was Did I tell you
about that book that I.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Got and it's called like the SPI's way of like, shoot,
I need to remember the crush.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
That's so cute.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Oh shoot, it's called like he was basically a CIA
agent and he it's a book. It's like a total
plane read that I read where it's just a list
of ways to stay safe.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Oh my god, I made it. Yeah, I'll give it
to you. It's really really good.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
But I basically skipped to the whole thing was like
an environmental awareness, and he's like, I would throw everyone's
phone away if I could, because people go into this
thing where they think because this thing has a priority,
and they're so interested in it that the world they're
shutting out is shutting them out, when actually it makes
you a target when you are clearly like being mesmerized

(50:34):
by this thing in your hand and you don't have
environmental awareness, so like when you have to you don't
have to do anything, but when you're walking down the street,
the best thing to do is be looking around, be
making icons confidently, making eye contact with that apple confidently,
and just being and also being able to look at
a person being like I see you there, Like I

(50:56):
have a phone in my hand that I can do
something with. But also I see you there and like,
are you gonna come at me? Is a way better
approach because that's you're basically it's kind of like alpha
dogging and just being like this is my area and
this is I'm not a victim.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
This is like I mean, I literally carry my pepper
spray in those situations like walking down the street in
the dark whatever. Yeah, it's like walking to my like
when something just feels off sometimes I'll just walk with
it in my hand. Yeah, I don't know, I know,
I'm fucking paranoise shit, but like, but.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
That's what it's really, So yeah, it's what it's.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
I can't recommend being a creepily gigantic man and amazing
you're like six three.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (51:42):
Though last week I was in I was in Bloomington, Indiana,
and I went to I went to the gay bar
in Bloomington, Indiana, and I went to the address a
gay bar. I love that, And I looked in and
there were like men playing pool and like couples together,
and I was like, oh, this is not a gay bar.
What's going on? Because if there are men playing pool,
you're in the wrong place. So I went in and

(52:06):
I was like, Hey, where's the back door, and they
were like, oh, you have to go around through an
alley to a windowless.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
Like it's just like gayasy.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
It's a gay bar from the time when gay bars
couldn't have window Like gay bars were about having a
good time, well hiding.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
I like that. I like that he knew what you meant. Yes,
I wouldn't.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
But the experience of like walking through that alley and
being like, uh, like how many people have been beaten?

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yeah, you know, it's almost like it's a shameful thing
that you have to walk through this place and no
one wants to go.

Speaker 4 (52:43):
That's awful. I mean, it's it's like the old school
way of things, but it is. It's the closest I
can come to kind of understanding what it's like for
you guys. Anytime it's dark when you're going to your car,
of like, here's this alley where somebody could wait to
just like hit you with the battery.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
So not even at night, it's all day too. Like
I won't walk down certain alleys during the day because
it's just so.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Walked down alleys. No, they're dirty and they're for garbage men.
They're not for girls.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Garbage men, not sanitation workers, is what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
That's right, men of garbage level humanity. I want to
clear that up because sanitation workers are very respectable.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Oh but they're just I also meant their truck goes
through that alley real fast.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
That's where the garbage cans are. I haven't got time yet,
so shitty dudes.

Speaker 4 (53:28):
It was one final topic I was discussed with you.
Is all right, Okay, So one of one of the
ways of sort of like saying something is not murder
is just sort of saying that the right state of
mind wasn't there. And what well, first of all, just
what manslaughter is is when you didn't intend to do something,

(53:48):
that you made a mistake and you did it your
negligent So like any essentially anything you do in a
car not murder. It is like in the state of California,
I think there's really strong presumption that any you do
in a car is not Like.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
I wouldn't want to kill someone like your car.

Speaker 4 (54:05):
Yeah, like you wouldn't be trying to kill someone with
your car. Like if you shoot someone in a car,
I'm not right, don't be crazy, right, yeah, but just
sort of like you know, an accident is an accident,
but again, like, I don't know why I'm targeting all
of this towards Georgia because of your attempt obsession. The
difference between I hit somebody with my car and I

(54:28):
hit somebody car with my car and then it killed them, Yeah,
is I accidentally hit someone with my car and then
I killed them. Is you're going to jail for eight years.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
And I knew a guy who wait, sorry sorry, I
accidentally hit someone with my car and then it killed them.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
You're going to jail.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
You're going to jail. That's manslaughter. You've committed manslaughter.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
And even though it was an accident, Just why don't
sucking drive even if you're buzzed, Because can you imagine
two drinks and you drive and you accidentally kill someone.
I didn't realize that's what you were saying.

Speaker 4 (54:59):
Yes, it horrifying, And there is there's an extra level
of that where there are things that you were doing
that are accidents but are so diggishly stupid that they're
called depraved heart, and so they're either called depraved heart
manslaughter or in some states that's enough for murder.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Like I think I know a dude that happened. What's
the example, though, I went on.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
Into my balcony and I shot my machine gun just
into space. I just drove my car into a farmer's
market because I thought it would be funny. Oh, like,
doesn't that's not.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
The stunning at all? Well, I know it.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
So I know a dude, he was fucking high on meth.
There was fucking traffic on the freeway, and he decides
to fucking gun it in the next to the fast line,
like the pull off lane. So fucking people had broken
down in that lane, and he comes around a curve
and hits them, and they fucking I cannot it's been
fifteen years ago.

Speaker 4 (55:50):
That's completely depraved heart, And it's that horrifying. If he
went to prison for a long time, it's a very
interesting thing that for a long time I got so
drunk or I got so stone just meant that you
had been negligent and not that you had intent. But
does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (56:08):
So is it now? Does it now mean that?

Speaker 4 (56:10):
Like basically it would now probably be construed as depraved heart,
Like you just you got yourself into a situation where
you knew it was possible that you were might driving
to somebody like that.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Well, that's the thing where like I lived through I
think we all lived through the time where we watched
drunk driving become a bad thing. Yes, which is hilariously
insane now, but like it was when I was ten
or twelve years old.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
I remember the it was.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
I think it was a made for TV movie where like,
and it's a true story of the drunk driver who
had been arrested for drunk driving eight times, and then
that he does it, it's the ninth but never went
to jail. It was like, here's your ticket, ticket, ticket,
he comes over the hill, it's the one. It's the
story of the woman who founded Mother Struck, driving her
kids walking in the middle of this straight over a hill.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
He's drunk. He plows down two girls, I think, and yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
And that's when they were like, no more of this
fucking businessman who had a great lunch and sorry everybody bullshit.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
You would think that they could, that the parents could
sue the city for that, for never having punished him
for all the eight fucking DUIs he already had.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
I think, No, they do stuff like that, But like
back then, it was like, oh, but we all drink
and drive.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
Yeah, you, interestingly, can't sue a city for things like
that because of a thing called sovereign immunity. Shut up
where unless the state unless this like when the state
is acting like a business, like when they're when they're running,
like oh we take your garbage away or we're making
power that stuff, you can sue them over. But we

(57:47):
did the stuff that like only a state can do,
like we criminally prosecute, like we failed at prosecuting them
or whatever. It's like you treat them the same way
you would the king of just like, no, they're fine.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Back in police state, motherfucker.

Speaker 4 (58:02):
What's interesting now?

Speaker 3 (58:03):
I'm four against. I mean, I think we're fine right now.

Speaker 4 (58:07):
And we are cruising for police.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Give me in your future when twenty seventeen, let's work
against is what we're saying.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
Interesting is the first Like, as we get more texting
while driving, the thing is is like texting while driving
probably negligent driving while watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills
on your phone.

Speaker 3 (58:25):
Brave Who does that?

Speaker 2 (58:27):
I feel like watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is
to brave heart. And it took me too long to
say that to your it was good?

Speaker 4 (58:35):
Then can you think of any other way of getting
rid of somebody's state of mind.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
First of all, you're the best teacher I've ever had
knowing asked questions.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
I'm so sorry to here being so lost.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
You're the one, you know all the answers, most is
the best brat.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
What can we think of another way of like.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
Obviating the sort of removing the state of mind as
one of the elements drugs elements. Thing is drugs is
basically the sort of lowering it to negligence the way
that we.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Talked mentally capacitated incapacity, except I said mentally capacity.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
What's mentally capacitated about it?

Speaker 4 (59:16):
There are okay, so there are cool defenses like sound
defense is a great defense. But there are cool defenses
like duress.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
Dress. I'm always under duress.

Speaker 4 (59:27):
Yes, he had my child and he told me the
only way he would let my child out is if
you know I shall I work for.

Speaker 3 (59:35):
Cats too, because I'm all a bitch if they have
my cat.

Speaker 4 (59:38):
Okay, based on the things that I have told you,
what do you think the standard would be?

Speaker 3 (59:45):
What's the standard?

Speaker 2 (59:46):
Again?

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Based on some of the things you've told us, A great.

Speaker 3 (59:51):
I've flunked out of a state school. I went community
college and just fucking in class.

Speaker 4 (59:57):
How do we determine whether it's threatened a cat enough
for it to be duressed on? Georgia hardstar?

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
Oh, because I'm in love and you can tell I.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Look at if you have an Instagram and there's photo
this thing on it, then you can fucking kill.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
So if she cradles the cat like a baby every night.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Okay, so that is proof that Georgia actually felt like
that would be terrible. Yes, but you also have so
I can do it. You also have to ask what
a reasonable person kill the secretary of the interior to
save their cat.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
I would do it. Just someone go ahead and say
this is going to be my trial.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
But the other more interesting thing is like mental state.
And so I just wanted to talk about a little
bit about not guilty by reason of insanity? How much
does that actually come up in these horrible, horrible people
that you guys discussed.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
The things I've been learning and reading about is that
a lot of people try it, and it's really easy
to fucking it's really easy to disprove it. And the
reality is it's really fucking hard to proven. It's it's
always an extreme case. Now you can't just it's not
it's not as easy as people think it's going to be.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
It's the the guy that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
In Canada, I believe Winnipeg took the machete to the
other guy's head on the bus.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
The province of episode, No, Winnipeg city.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
Is Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
Yes it is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Is this the Cannibal episode?

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Uh? No, not Cannibal. It's just the guy that went
crazy on the greyhound bus. Remember, and he yah killed
the guy sitting next to him and then just went
crazy and didn't you eat a little bit of him?

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Yes, you're right, we had a Cannibal episode, wonder pre
telling you to do things.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
That's right. He ended up.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
It was by reason of insanity because he was technically
he was I believe, schizophrenic, but not taking his medication
because he it was it was like his family was
basically judging him for being schizophrenic, like you can't be crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
But based on that though, like if you're schizophrenic and
you stopped taking your meds, aren't you responsible for that?
Like you can't just stop taking your meds and kill someone.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
Fascinating question. And it's thirty two part questions.

Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
It's been super hard. Also, have you guys done the
Florida kid who ate the people in the garage? Yet?
Fast Salts? I believe it was basalts ate the face
was on steroids. I don't know, on a highway, right,
she ate it in a garage. It may have been Basalts.
But there's footage of him walking out of an Applebee's

(01:02:33):
looking really weird.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Maybe he doesn't look up weird apples. Just too long
to say that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
Save it, Save it for year fifteen anyway, So basically
there have been like a couple of big theories about
how do we figure out is this person crazy enough?
And the first one like started when a guy tried
to kill the Prime Minister of Britain, And it's called
the McNaughton rule, which was the rule for like a

(01:02:59):
really time, and that comes down to could they not
tell the difference between bright and raight? Which is like,
that's sort of like the classic question, and it's also
so weirdly subjective, and like in the sixties we started
moving towards this new thing called the Durham Test, which
was trying to be cool and scientific and more understanding

(01:03:20):
of things, and they the question was was this a
result of your mental illness? Was the act a result
of your mental illness? And then the president got shot.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Oh yeah, and for Jodie Foster, yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
And what's his name said not reason by guilty of insanity,
and under the Durham test he was judged not guilty
by reason of insanity. And then every fucking state came
back and passed laws that were like, fuck you Durham test,
and so like they some of them went back to
the McDonald rule, some of them went in the direction

(01:04:00):
of this thing called the irresistible impulse test.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
That sounds like a new.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
It's kind of fruity, stinks of bluf irresistible impulse.

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
He's kind of that guy. Like the question is just
the classic question is if there was a police officer
standing by your elbow, would you still do it? And
like manageable bus guy just feels like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
No, no, he absolutely was convinced he had that that
guy was had a demon inside of him and he
had to kill him.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
That's a really great question.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Yeah, And it's like you're in this other world and
it doesn't matter who's at your.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
Elb or on your side.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
The cops on your side and your yeah, you're trying
to protect that cop. Is essentially the mentality.

Speaker 4 (01:04:47):
And that that also goes towards that magnotton idea of
like can you just not tell the difference between right
and wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
But it's like, oh, like you know, you got molested
as a kid, and so you think that's okay, and
you won't you know, in less than another your kid.
It's like, that's right, that's what you're supposed to be doing.
You know, it's a in a fucking pedophile's mind.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
The thing is is like a it's too at this
point in time, it's super super hard to get it
not guilty by reason of insanity. And then there's also
the things like even if you do not guilty by
reason of insanity, you're going to a mental hospital for
what should be forever, like what should be until you're cured, chured.

(01:05:29):
So you guys recently had a horrifying story. Was it
recent or I just listened to it recently.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
I don't remember any.

Speaker 4 (01:05:35):
Of somebody somebody who went somebody who got a not
guilty by reason of insanity and then got out like
within a year.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
I love them, well, I feel like it was.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
I think it was a little bit longer than here.
But our greyhound bus guy a race free now. Oh
it's free now in Canada.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
It's so charming. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
And also, like I always think of like mental facilities
like can I go there for a week please, But
it's not like a yoga retreat.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
This is a fucking like shitty well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Also, they don't exist anymore, right, this is true, they don't.

Speaker 4 (01:06:07):
A friend of a friend of mine went to a
women's jail in Japan.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Oh my god, oh my god.

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
I always just imagine that is the most amazing spot.
I just imagine. It was all hello kitty stuff like
fish and fish and rice, three times a day light exercise, like.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
A quiet linen.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Clothing's just sato, a facial bar. You're just there's a
lot of exfoliating and gorgeous skin.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
Oh the hair is just luscious. But it's but it's
so small, it's like a small cube.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
I mean, like my mom was a psychiatric nurse, a
head nurse at a mental hospital. And when Proposition thirteen
passed and they closed most of the mental health facilities
in California again, and I think across the nation, I
can't remember what if it was staking was just California.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Yeah, it was California.

Speaker 4 (01:07:02):
But I mean it's something that has declined, Like I
think the Reagan administration cut funding for mental health and
released a bunch of.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
People fucking epidemic. Yeah, because these are all people who
should be in mental health passage should be taken care
of and medicated and instead, so.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
That kind of thing where these days, if it's not
guilty by reason of insanity, where do they send people?

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
I mean there are just like deeply overbooked state mental
hospitals and some that are I believe specifically structured for
people who have committed crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
Oh okay, so it's like a wing at a prison
almost yeah, oh oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
I think California has that. Oh fullsome I think has
is where the sort of like mentally ill people who
have committed crimes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Let's go there right now, let's do a fulsome trip.
You know what's funny, my mom.

Speaker 4 (01:07:58):
So I may be totally wrong about that, And let's
just remember I went to law school sixteen years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
This is my favorite murder. Being wrong is so right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
I was just gonna say really quick, there's a there's
a maximum security it's a super max prison prison called
Pelican Bay that's up in Way northern California, and my
mom used to go with her friend, missus man Willer.
I can't remember her first name, uh, because missus man
Willer was the kind of nurses. I think she was
also a psychanter nurse, and she would go there and

(01:08:29):
give like tests to the residence for some reason.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
I can't remember what she was doing. I don't want
to talk to her so bad.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
My mom would just go along and stay at the hotel,
like read a book, and then they would like go
to a fun dinner.

Speaker 4 (01:08:42):
Roo.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
I'm like, you're intentionally going to Pelican Bay where like
it's basically all about this super max prison.

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
It's where they put her vaca. It was her vacate,
that's right. And she was like, of course I'll go.
I'll just go up there with her.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
They had this great Italian place and meanwhile inside the
prison are like all it's all well, the hannibal lecters
of like California.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):
She didn't have to deal with you and your sister.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
That was so true, so true. When I was in.

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
Boston and Minnesota that took us to go see the
prisons and it's the weird thing is like, I'm from California,
where we have so like we should have so many
of these things. Minnesota was basically just like there are
two maximum security prisons and one of them was like
eighteen hundred's kind of like that thing, and one of.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
Them was like OZ like state of the art.

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
State of the art. There's like a bubble where you
can run the whole place from there. And they were
making like kindergarten mats. That was the thing that they did,
was they made little mats for kindergartener. She's nice, and
it was, you know, terrifying. It was legit terrifying to
see what life there would be.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
Like, Well, you talked about this when we were both
watching The Night Of. We talked about it all the time,
how it's like we we want them people that do
horrible things to be locked away forever, and no sentence
seems long enough and all that stuff. Then you watch
The Night Of and you're like, four minutes as a
prisoner inside of in any of those places is an
absolute horror show nightmare.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
Like then you start getting it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
Makes me think about it the complexity of when you
get you know, when you actually get found guilty for
a crime like that, and you go away for eleven
years because you did this thing, and you literally are
delivered into the bowels of hell and hopefully hopefully you
stay alive.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
Like that does count for something.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
We always want it to be fifty years or whatever,
But like, is eleven years enough when it's that level
of suffering and fear and constant horror?

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
Okay, but what did you do to your victims that
they had a similar that's private what I did to
my victim?

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
No, I know, no, absolutely, And it's also like that's
why I'm also so interested in like cases where it's
like did they get the right guy? Because the thought
of walking in there and being like I have eleven
years and I didn't fucking do this.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
Yeah, more horrifying than those stories. Yeah, I was in
there for seven years and then like DNA got the
DNA like technology to figure out I couldn't have remotely
done this.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
Yeah, that's one hundred years more. You know, it's not
seven years, it's fucking dog years. It's I hate those
stories so much.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Wrongly accused is like it's just it's how do you
convince people in that situation?

Speaker 4 (01:11:34):
You can sue for deprivation of your civil rights. I
think if you can show sort of like like misconduct
on the part of the or just sort of like
failure to do their jobs properly.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
And diligence, yes on the part of prosecution.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
So like if someone else gets caught and convicted, then
you can you can, like if they find someone else's DNA,
let you go. It's one thing that if they find
someone else's DNA and they find that person and convict them,
that you probably have more leeway.

Speaker 4 (01:12:05):
Well, what you would do is if they find DNA
that relates to your case, then you would. There's a
thing called like a habeas corpus act.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Where is it like mensis, Oh my god, I got
my me on my habeas.

Speaker 3 (01:12:22):
Corpus to day.

Speaker 4 (01:12:23):
Habeas corpus is just it means like present the body
and the thing is is that's a roof sex a
direct like a direct thing where you get to go
to an appeals court and say like, look, this means
there's no possible way he did it, and like those
are the things that like people in jail are constantly

(01:12:45):
trying to like pursue themselves and you get occasional TV
movie about the one guy who is like get himself out.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
The Innocence Project tries to do too, And don't you
think that Beyonce should record a song called present the
Body where the core and then.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Like in parenthesis habeous corput that's right exactly where the course.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:13:06):
Maybe, course, so you should be I mean, if there
is DNA evidence of that sort, you should be doing
a better job of getting yourself out there than the
state is doing or prosecuting somebody else, like it's on you,
like it's so it's it's on you, but also it

(01:13:26):
should be able to happen quicker, I would think than
the state going and trying to get that other.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
Person from jail.

Speaker 4 (01:13:36):
From we're saying, there's an innocent person in jail and
there is a person out there who actually committed the
crime that like, the minute they find the DNA that
couldn't possibly be yours, then your lawyer can file a
habeas corpus and you know, the like the police will

(01:13:58):
be or whoever it is will the DNA experts will
all be like nope, nope, nope, and you can get
that done. And it seems like finding the person and
all of that who actually did it would be a
longer process than the habeas corpus.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
Okay, this a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:14:17):
I don't know that I understand.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
That sounded real smart.

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):
Just now, I'm sorry, are you just saying as opposed
to the finding the guilty man, it's just proving it's
not you.

Speaker 4 (01:14:28):
It's just proving it's not you. And like it was
just a yeah. Georgia's question was like, basically, can there
be two people in jail for the same murder at
the same time and kind of no, oh, got it
unless they were like collaborated.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Oh what about the the guy who eventually got prosecuted
by the army?

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
Oh? Yeah, did you hear that one?

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
No, that's really easy when we start talking about double jeopardy.
But I mean, anytime I'll just say a thing where
I'm like pretty sure this is the word I should
be saying, but I can't have like a debate about
because I.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
Don't really know what I'm talking about. But it was,
you know, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
He got tried and convicted of a triple homicide that
got overturned and he got and he was declared innocent.
Then they found years later it's the Summerland Road murders
and then years later they found DNA, you know, once
DNA technology was around, tying him to the murders. And
so because they couldn't try him for double jeopardy because

(01:15:30):
of double jeopardy, because he had already been convicted and
then beamed innocent. He had been in the army at
the time, and so they reinstated him and then he
was tried by.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
One of the army people.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
I don't know what's it called cis Mark Harmon.

Speaker 4 (01:15:47):
Yeah, that's because those are different.

Speaker 3 (01:15:51):
Laws and different juristics jurisdictions.

Speaker 4 (01:15:54):
No, because of their different lines, because they're different jurisdictions.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
Right, But isn't that so that doesn't count as double
jeopardy if the Army steps in and is like, we're
going to try it over here.

Speaker 4 (01:16:05):
Yes, because he violated a different law for committing murder
while a member of.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
The army, or if he had if he had cross
state lines with a kidnap victim, then the FBI and
or the or the US could could try him, right.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
Yeah, So it's an interesting thing that like you can't
I don't think you can be convicted of like can
you be convicted of both federal and state murder? All
that sort if they are if it is both a
federal and state murder, I would think so because there
is a different requirement. But there is this thing where
if all of the elements of your crime are all

(01:16:46):
are also all of the elements of a different crime,
you can't be convicted for both of them. So like
going back to me, going back to me punching Steven.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
All going back to that, what if Stephen sues you
just for this example, threatened All of.

Speaker 4 (01:17:02):
The things that I did to punch Stephen were battery,
but they were in the situation where I killed him,
it was also murder, Which means if you prosecute me
for murder and I am convicted of murder, I cannot
be convicted of the battery that was you know, that
was part of it. So with that, I assume the

(01:17:25):
thing is that like the failure was on the part
of like the state law, like because there was clearly
some sort of technical failure in prosecuting it under the
state law, you cannot be retried under the state but

(01:17:46):
there all of the facts still occurred.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
I just wonder, like you knows, as science and technology advances,
just should double jeopardy like depend on compelling evidence. You know,
when we someday can can can use you know, DNA
in the fucking nineties wasn't what it is today in
the early two thousands, and so there's so many cases

(01:18:11):
that they're going to find something bigger in twenty twenty
five when we know more.

Speaker 4 (01:18:16):
And it is so hard. It is very, very hard
when we constantly have new technology that gives us more information.
And when you tried somebody under what like criminal research
was in nineteen eighty four, you want to have another
stab at it in twenty sixteen. But I believe in

(01:18:36):
the idea of like, no, you get like statute of limitations,
let's deal with it now. Yeah, And you kind of
have to deal with that under the terms of now,
and you can't go back. And it's hard with things
like cold cases and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
And it's also to the prosecution to decide if they
actually have a case that they can win.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
So if you don't, then you should fucking wait until
you do.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
Except which is why they don't try a lot of
wait non like it's one of your rights, right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:19:03):
Except for the fact you've got that the yes, speedy trial.
But the thing is that speedy trial only starts once
they arrest. Yeah, and so you don't arrest someone and
tell you yeah. And the thing that's interesting is like,
we knew she was dead in nineteen sixty seven, but
if we get information that says, oh, so and so

(01:19:27):
did it in nineteen or in twenty sixteen, then you
can go and get that guy. It's not like statute
of limitations has told because wait, how's it?

Speaker 3 (01:19:39):
I don't know?

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
Again, this is murder, yeah, if it's right, never for murder,
never from murder.

Speaker 4 (01:19:44):
Yeah. But yeah, so like you just kind of have
to wait until you have enough stuff that is a case.

Speaker 3 (01:19:52):
Yeah, fuck man, yeah, fuck wow, funny.

Speaker 4 (01:19:59):
This is horrifying. I've forgotten so much about this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):
Welcome to our world.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
I'm sorry all of your listeners.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
What there's only five hundred lawyers out there that listen
to this.

Speaker 4 (01:20:13):
This is terrible. Also, all of this well no, but
also the worst part about this is that I love
giggling to myself about Karen calling Winnipeg a province or
Manitoba city. But now you're going to get all of
the lawyers writing millions of listeners.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
Have you seen our fucking listening? As I sent a
sweet honesty.

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
Shit, you're going to make a quilt about how I
got the law raw, what's going to.

Speaker 1 (01:20:40):
Happen if someone's gonna be like a meme of a
quilt and it's adorable and charming and everyone loves me.

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
I think this is so satisfying because basically, for a
year straight, we've been throwing out what we think and
kind of that with the intention of, like, we'll probably
get back around to this and have an answer, adventure
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
But I'm arguing like, well, this not arguing with each other,
but like saying like this should be this way, and
it's like, well, here's why it's not that way.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
Right, I like that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:06):
And the thing is I do I like after law school,
I was just so terrified every time I got behind
the wheel of a car. Please let me not kill
someone this time.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Yes, no, I will be that way too.

Speaker 4 (01:21:18):
But the paranoia of like, once you're in the criminal
justice system is so horrifying and I have the right
to take your life away from you that I do like,
however annoying it may seem, I do really believe in
all of those little constitutional things that are like if
you don't do it all right, then this person has
to go like this person gets off and watching the

(01:21:41):
Supreme Court kind of like scrape away at some of
those things like it used to be if anything remotely
like unkosher had happened in like searching for something that
evidence was the fruit of the poisonous tree and could
never be used. And they've started to be a little
bit more. Yeah, even though you didn't have a warrant
for and it's fine that you got that, that terrifies,

(01:22:05):
even though it's finding people who actually are guilty, mostly
of drug crimes and stuff like that. I'm just like,
I want all of the protections I can have that
the state can't throw me away forever.

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
That's right. That's the I think ultimately. That's the thing.
It's like once.

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
When we start talking about because we are talking about
cases most of the time, we're talking about cases where
we know the person did it. So then when we opine,
it's with a passion of God, damn it. These people
have their lives taken away by this person who we
know is bad because it's been proven somebody else did
all the work, and we just get to say, yes,
get rid of this person, because they got rid of

(01:22:48):
other people and that sucks. But when we get into
those cases where it's a question mark, you still have
the same feelings of bad people should pay for before
ruining other people's lives.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
Well, it's interesting guy, that you think of it from
your side of like the of being the person who's prosecuted,
where I think of it as being the victim, and
like all the little things that I'll need to do,
like I save my I have all of my like
day planners for in the past like five years, so
if I ever need to say where I am or

(01:23:22):
what I was doing, or like testify for somebody else,
or you know, like if I use.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
My credit card.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
Every time I use my credit card at a fucking
parking meter, I think, okay, well this is going to
be a trail of where I was that day in
case something happens.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
Yeah, it's it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):
All goes both ways, though, because it also could be
a trail of something that proves you were at a
parking meter.

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
And say it like, yeah, I don't think about that.
I'm a white fucking female, Like I'm not, I don't
need to worry as much.

Speaker 4 (01:23:48):
Yeah, yeah, And I mean it is that situation of
like I'm just not scared of incidental crime in the
same way like somebody might rop me, you know, or
like there is random sort of I'm also just not
I'm not the most bashable gay guy.

Speaker 3 (01:24:07):
So I feel like you're almost unbashable.

Speaker 4 (01:24:12):
Let's not say that, Yeah, that's true, but it is
like that. I think there's maybe like more randomness to
the kind of crime and like why somebody might murder
me than for women.

Speaker 3 (01:24:30):
You know, like Nick, we're always vulnerable no matter what.

Speaker 4 (01:24:37):
But also the thing of the weird thing about reading
those cases and listening to your stuff is realizing that
somebody can just like bounce into your world and for
no reason, cause such horror and pain for just for
something that doesn't even make sense to.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
Me, and it's a shock wave of your family and
friends and fucking peripheral people in your life just pisces
me off so much that these fucking assholes can take
away so much by just having a fucking random feeling
to kill someone.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
Or drug addiction often is just the dumbest like they
were on meth and they didn't know what they were doing,
or they were on meth and it made them this
crazy violent or whatever, where it's just like but there's
all these people that don't do myth and live, you know,
live legal life.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
Well, I mean the things where I do get into
the mindset of the victim are more sort of like
the evidentiary things of like if this person's not around,
we don't get to rely on the fact that they can't.
You know that you're allowed to admit here's the evidence
for a dead person because they can't testify on their

(01:25:52):
behalfs soccer. No, I think it's a wonderful the best thing. Like,
there are parts of the law that like feel like
magic that really are just like such old ancient magic.
And my favorite one is the die You're dying utterance
is always admissible. No, yes, you so you're dying utterance?

(01:26:15):
What is like because the thing is is like it's.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):
That's name, that's this episode, it's dying utterance.

Speaker 4 (01:26:21):
It's hearsay. So hearsay is something someone You can't testify about,
stuff that somebody told you. You can only testify about
stuff that you like experience yourself. So but when it
is you're dying utterance because there's no you around anymore,
like that is always missible.

Speaker 3 (01:26:39):
And at least just to be considered. Yes, doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
It doesn't mean like it does. It's just like throw
that in there with everything else.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
Why is that okay? Why? Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
So my sister says to me, I'm really scared that
my husband's going to kill me that and I say
that and she gets killed and I say that that's
your say.

Speaker 4 (01:27:01):
Yes, it's hearsay is admissible some.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
Of the time, okay, But if you were as she
was dying, leaned over and she said it in your ear,
he's the one that did it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:10):
That seems like, okay, that's fair, But that seems like
the opposite of how it should be.

Speaker 3 (01:27:14):
Like she's been telling me this shit for years.

Speaker 4 (01:27:16):
Okay. Well, the thing is is like after your brother
in law testifies about stuff about how things were.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
Fine, Andy, I love you, I know you're not Mark.
I know that we have to say that. I just
realized that was.

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
Like that you're the example. Sounds like I don't mean
that you're allowed. I mean there is something about how
hearsay from dead people. There's a separate rule about hearsay
from dead people being more admissible. But also you can
admit hearsay to impeach his testimony. So if he says
things were fine, right, best, and I had the best

(01:27:50):
of relationships. Then we can bring Georgia to the stand,
and Georgia says, Okay, she told me nineteen times and
I wrote them down on the little pad in my kitchen.
Give a little pad from your kitchen is also admissible. Okay, yeah,
it makes sense. I like that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
And also emails these days wouldst forever so wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:28:09):
I'm keeping a fucking pad in my kitchen from now on,
and I'm writing down every time anything happens.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
Good idea, right, yeah, and then you can write a book.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
It's just intense detail of every single thing that happens
to you.

Speaker 4 (01:28:23):
My mom has a situation that Karen Kider knows about.
That's just like where there might come a situation where
she needs to testify about something, and she's always just like, well,
I put it on my pad, I wrote it down.

Speaker 3 (01:28:41):
God, that's all you need. She really does that. Yes,
Oh my god, that's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
I keep my my my daily calendars. Is like I'll
remember something if I see that I went to this
fucking doctor or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:28:53):
That right, Having documents for stuff is just so exciting
from a legal perspective. You do discuss. That means the
other side gets a copy of your calendar. So so
many cocks.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:29:06):
I went to core reporting school for a year, which
I know that shit.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
I would actually say too that in almost like the
inverted version of this that I think of is like
in my family, there was a ton of death when
I was young, and it was a lot of it,
like surprising and one after the other. And that's when
I just decided I'm going to do it. I fucking
want Because when we talk about the random stuff, or

(01:29:30):
when we talk about being a woman and walking with
fear at night or whatever it is, it's this thing
where any this that's that is the deal of life.
That is what being born into this life, that's the situation.

Speaker 3 (01:29:43):
It's the same.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
You know, it's different for different people for different reasons,
but in general, we are all constantly at risk. We
all have the specter of death hanging over us all
the time. It's why some people love true crime, it's
why some people love to paint, it's why some people
can't stop jogg whatever the fuck it is. But ultimately,
I feel like I had this kind of weird.

Speaker 3 (01:30:04):
Realization as a young child who was.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
Like this fucking sucks and it could end at any second.

Speaker 4 (01:30:10):
Well, the thing is like it could be somebody with
a machete on a bus or the amount of potassium
in your system.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
Yeah, exactly, So then why not be like, oh sorry,
I meant to tell you I'm totally in love with you?
Or why not go do stand up comedy that you're
scared to death of doing? But why not do it
because it's the thing in your heart that you want
to do? Like you might as well, this is your
one fucking shot, and you can sit there lining up
all the things that are the reasons why you should

(01:30:36):
be scared, or you can go, well, I should be
really scared because this whole situation is really scary. So
why be scared about the one thing I really want
to do?

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
Why not just fucking do it? Then?

Speaker 1 (01:30:49):
Six, that's twenty seventeen. That's twenty seventeen, baby, and he's seventeen.
Is how Karen is doing.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
It and everybody else if you would liken it, Johnny,
how long have we been talking?

Speaker 3 (01:31:01):
Eight hours long? Should we choo? One murder from our
cards or true crime card draw draw? I'm a murder
like like it's.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
Touau cards all right, I have I have a stack
of these murder, these true crime playing cards that stephen
stephen Ry Morris gave us last week.

Speaker 3 (01:31:18):
We're each gonna draw one, okay, and we're gonna read them.

Speaker 1 (01:31:22):
It's just fucking It's just like playing cards and it's murder.

Speaker 3 (01:31:25):
Oh shit, you guys, all right, I'm gonna do one.
Oh my god, Oh my god, my god, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
And we're back. Well, it's kind of more of the same.
It's just like all the things that we don't know
are asking him about. And what I love is guys
very humble in this where he's just like, yes, I'm
technically a lawyer.

Speaker 3 (01:31:46):
I passed the bar, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:31:47):
But it's like, but I haven't talked about any of
these things in thirteen years, so you're kind of like
pop quizzing me on a thing that yes, as a
very very smart person, I feel like I should know forever.

Speaker 3 (01:31:57):
But we're like, now, let's talk abs corporate.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
I'm really mad at him for the law, but somehow
he knew all the answers though. It was so impressive.

Speaker 3 (01:32:05):
It was really impressive.

Speaker 1 (01:32:06):
It was very much like, oh, this is why some
people can graduate law school, and I would never I
don't have a memory like that.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
No, it's like a it's a way your brain is
set up totally. I would imagine that he would tell
us there's other things going on, but he definitely doesn't
have like ADHD, no, any of those kind of like
I'm a mosquito and I think he's like a hyper focuser.

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
Yeah, which is which can be ADHD too? Is that true?

Speaker 4 (01:32:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:32:32):
I mean everybody's got it, everyone fucking has it. It
can go that way for sure, which like that's not mine.
But okay, but okay.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
I think if there's anybody that should come back to
the show, it's Guy branderhaps a fucking loly. He should
be like a guest host when one of us is
like sick or just can't do it, I'm like, God,
bring him in.

Speaker 1 (01:32:50):
Definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:32:51):
Yeah, that's great. Great, we've decided. Boom.

Speaker 1 (01:32:53):
Okay, let's get into part three and let's hear what
else he has to say. Smart person, Guy Brenham.

Speaker 3 (01:33:06):
Okay, who wants to go first? Karen?

Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
You sound excited. She got last. Guy seems disheartened. Guy,
do you want to reach Wait?

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
Hold on, I think this this might.

Speaker 2 (01:33:17):
Be what no, hold on, I said last No, it's
the McNaughton rules. Oh I fucking just pulled the card.

Speaker 3 (01:33:28):
Crazy, Okay, let me read this with McNaughton rules. We'll
just we'll double check your work.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
In eighteen forty three, Downiel McNaughton, the Glasgow woodworker shot
the Secretary to the British. That's oh, guys, I have
tingly tingles right now.

Speaker 1 (01:33:43):
I packages of these and this is the one we
open and that's the one you fucking I wasn't looking.

Speaker 3 (01:33:48):
They were upside down? What is happening?

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
She had intended to kill the Prime Minister, but was
unclear as to his appearance. At his trial, McNaughton, suffering
from delusions of person execution, proclaimed the Tories route to
get him. The jury found him to be insane and
not responsible for the magnitude of his crime. He was
to be sent to an institution. Concerned Parliament members convened

(01:34:12):
a panel of judges to explain this. Their answer forms
the McNaughton rules, which colon which are this? Jurors are
to be informed that the accused is presumed to be
to be sane, as he or she is presumed to
be innocent to establish a defense on the basis of insanity,
the accused must be disturbed enough to not know the

(01:34:34):
nature and quality of what he or she did, or,
if knowing it, to know it was wrong. Further, if
the accused labors under partial delusion only he or she
must be considered in the sane situation as to responsibility
as if the facts with respect to the delusion were real.
These British rules, commonly called the insanity defense, have been

(01:34:57):
adopted in America and Canada and have been tested hundreds
of times since their inception. In the cases of a
serial killers such as Ted Bundy, Edward Geen, I look
what I call him, Edward Kenneth Bianki, and Jeffrey Dalmer,
the atrocities committed have led defense lawyers to attempt to
prove insanity. While this strategy was successful in the case

(01:35:20):
of the obviously dysfunctional gain, most such defenses prove futile
because the sociopathic personality, while deviant in his desires, is
often not out of touch with reality, and jurors usually
decide that a killer functional enough to hide his or
her crimes can be presumed to be aware of wrongdoing.

(01:35:40):
And I would just like to say that these are
true crime series. This is from true crime series for
serial Killers and Mass Murderers by Valerie Jones and Peggy
Collier Lanais and the art is by Paul Lee Eclipse Enterprises.
Just in case enemy wants to fow. It's in Forestville,
which is right by Pedalomma who is a game again?

Speaker 1 (01:36:00):
Oh a.

Speaker 2 (01:36:01):
Gain is the one that basically killed several people women
in his town killed his mother. Psycho was based on him,
as well as Silence of the Lambs. He's the one
that made furniture. He wore his mother's face, nipple belt, yes,
nipple necklace, a nipple belt, you're right. And he danced

(01:36:21):
with his like different parts of his mother under the moonlight.

Speaker 3 (01:36:25):
He was out of his goddamn mind.

Speaker 4 (01:36:29):
Do you guys hate the movie Copycat?

Speaker 3 (01:36:33):
Do you mean? Do you mean with Sandra Bullock?

Speaker 2 (01:36:35):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:36:36):
What was the one with Harry Connick Junior and Sigourney Waiver?

Speaker 1 (01:36:39):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:36:40):
I like that?

Speaker 2 (01:36:40):
Moe?

Speaker 4 (01:36:41):
Oh really?

Speaker 3 (01:36:41):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:36:42):
I always just thought that his serial killerness was so
Yorky compared to actual serial killerness.

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
He hadn't refined his acting style as he had eventually
done in Hope Floats. But I enjoy everything that's happening.
Also because it's in San Francisco, right.

Speaker 4 (01:37:03):
Yes it is, and it's amazing. And Sigourney, we heard
it's Sigourney. We wears a lot of suits. And Holly
Sigourney and Holly Hunter. But I just anytime Karen like
is just on board for an actor her love of
Sandy Bullck. I'm just like.

Speaker 3 (01:37:19):
When Sandy cries, I cry, how how can Karen love this?
It's in me? I want to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:27):
I think he wants someone to dig that out. And
I think Santra Bullock does it for you ever.

Speaker 3 (01:37:31):
She does it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:32):
But but I have to say, like not the proposal
Sandy where she's kind of it is so good.

Speaker 3 (01:37:38):
It's good.

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):
But that's that's my Sandy is more eight week's notice.
That's I will watch eight weeks notice. Yeah, anytime wherever
it is beginning, middle, er end. Okay, I feel the same.
I'm the same with Steel Magnolias. Oh and Sleeping with
the Enemy. I will see on what that movie is

(01:37:59):
so good.

Speaker 4 (01:38:00):
Steel Magnolias just goes down so smooth, like it just it's.

Speaker 1 (01:38:04):
So it's so smoothed. On a hot day, it's wonderful. Yeah,
do you want to go? Do you want to go last?

Speaker 3 (01:38:10):
Because you're the guest?

Speaker 4 (01:38:11):
Okay, when is terrible? I feel like it will be
an anti climax.

Speaker 1 (01:38:15):
Okay, here we go, okay. Richard Tingler Junior. Yeah, And
it's like a really creepy drawing of like an alien
trying to look like a man.

Speaker 2 (01:38:24):
He looks like he has plucked his eyebrows without using
a mirror.

Speaker 3 (01:38:28):
Totally he does. Richard H.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
Tingler Junior was an illegitimate child born in nineteen forty.

Speaker 3 (01:38:35):
Not his fault. I just want to go ahead and point
that out.

Speaker 4 (01:38:37):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:38:37):
His mother often taunted him for his quote sinful birth
and beat him.

Speaker 3 (01:38:41):
What a fucking yeah, I mean she started it. Sorry,
she really started.

Speaker 1 (01:38:46):
He escaped home by enlisting on the Air Force, and
I she's ying. While stationed in Alaska, he went a
well with a friend and was arrested for Berkeley in
February sixty one.

Speaker 3 (01:38:54):
He was released in Chillicothe, Ohio.

Speaker 1 (01:38:58):
Six months later, he was arrested on thirteen counts of
breaking and entering, sentenced to one to fifteen years in
state prison, and was paroled in August sixty four. He
broke roll with more burglars, returned to prison. On September
sixteenth of that year. Four bodies three mail or found
shot to death in a Cleveland park. One month later,
he robbed a dairy bar in Columbus. What's a dairy bar?

Speaker 2 (01:39:21):
I just like people go there to drink milk, Just
six shots of milk.

Speaker 3 (01:39:25):
Just drink milk and me another cool.

Speaker 1 (01:39:29):
He strangled the manager into unconsciousness and shot two teenage
workers identified by the manager. He was indicted on six
counts of murder and became one of the f guys
Most Wanted in November sixty eight. Using the alias Don Williams,
Tingler secured work at an Oklahoma farm. March thirtieth sixty nine.
His photograph with broadcasts in an episode of the FBI.

(01:39:50):
Oh my god, can we get fucking with some There
was a show called the FBI in nineteen sixty nine
which we fucking need we need it. What how is
no one.

Speaker 3 (01:40:00):
Put it on the list video historians, Come on, let
us have it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
I was just gonna say, we can go to the
Museum of Television and Radio and watch it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:08):
Okay, okay, this is like I don't know what that
is is it like it's a very hill microfiche exactly,
but with video he vanishes in April, he's shot and
he shut shoots and robs in middle aged man then
goes home to the farm. Erratic behavior attracted the attention
and baba ba FBI agents arrested Tindler in May, extradited
to face charges in Ohio. It is convicted of murder

(01:40:30):
and sentenced to die. A sentence was community it's a
life imprisonment. When the death penalty was overturned, King Glass
kind of bory.

Speaker 4 (01:40:38):
I just wanted more insight, Like I just, oh, like
these parents were unmarried.

Speaker 3 (01:40:44):
It's the only thing we got for why he did.

Speaker 4 (01:40:46):
All of them.

Speaker 2 (01:40:46):
And also just you shoot four people, Like what was
that situation?

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
I feel like they make him seem diabolical and really
he's just a fucking like drifter who just like doesn't give,
who has no emotional attachment to people.

Speaker 3 (01:40:57):
It's not that like, but do we know that, like
what was that four person murder? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:41:01):
I just it doesn't sound like he's got he he
got a soul, he's missing a chip.

Speaker 4 (01:41:07):
Yeah, they're more drifters in the sixties. I think I.

Speaker 3 (01:41:10):
Feel like road card Writers.

Speaker 4 (01:41:13):
Is everything you mean trippies, I'm like half the hippies
or I mean hippie.

Speaker 1 (01:41:19):
I feel like half the hippies were just people are like,
fucking great, I get to do this in fuck hot hippie.

Speaker 3 (01:41:23):
Girls, awesome hot runaways. That's very true. I think so
called Charles Manson.

Speaker 4 (01:41:28):
Four seventies Runaways left.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
It is stupid, idiot.

Speaker 4 (01:41:32):
This show is such a beautiful tribute away because I
forget that they exist. And then it feels like every
other episode there's a fourteen year old girl who SAIDs
to strike out on her own.

Speaker 2 (01:41:41):
Well, she either decides to strike on her own or
the cops go, I don't know, she ran away, but
she'll come back.

Speaker 3 (01:41:47):
I'm that old story.

Speaker 1 (01:41:48):
They make hippies seem like such free spirits, and it's
really just like kids from like small towns who are
like I want to go do a thing and they're like,
oh shit, yeah, and then have to do terrible things
to get money and survive, and they're like, I made
a fucking huge mistake.

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
And those those like videos of them.

Speaker 1 (01:42:02):
Like dancing and having fun, it's like, no, you're having
a terrible trip around a bunch of sober people.

Speaker 4 (01:42:08):
I feel like the core difference between hippies and hipsters
was a graphic design degree from a DC school that
allows you to like have that studio apartment in San
Francisco or you know Oakland dark stand in Brooklyn where
you can be fine.

Speaker 3 (01:42:23):
The difference is whether or not you choose to be
in the park.

Speaker 2 (01:42:26):
Right, Are you sleeping in the park or did you
just walk down to the park to get high?

Speaker 4 (01:42:30):
Right, Karen, let me tell you the most beautiful San
Francisco story I had.

Speaker 3 (01:42:35):
I was in it, yes, Georgia.

Speaker 4 (01:42:40):
Okay, so I was at I went to the bathroom
at the McDonald's that like a butts Golden.

Speaker 3 (01:42:46):
Gate Park, that's where the amba is.

Speaker 4 (01:42:49):
Yes, exactly, exactly gross. Do you have Bay Area origins?

Speaker 3 (01:42:53):
Yes? I lived there for a while.

Speaker 4 (01:42:54):
Okay. So I walked into the bathroom and there was
the most horrible twink in the trades covered I have
you drug use tracks. I was shaving like the barely
their beard that he had because he was an adorable twink.

(01:43:16):
What year with ninety? You said?

Speaker 3 (01:43:20):
Enough?

Speaker 4 (01:43:20):
Yeah, really eat or like two thousand and two, honey,
and with a disposable razor. And then as he finished,
he offered it to. He was like, do you want
to shave? And I was like, honey, baby, no, I'm good.
It was like like that's San Francisco, Like that is

(01:43:40):
San Francisco.

Speaker 2 (01:43:41):
So especially in the late nineties, Yes, it was you
can't share razors, And I told you not a thing.

Speaker 1 (01:43:50):
I want to keep talking about fucking San Francisco on
the nineties. But that's another episode, should I read, Lou Gong?
That's for the end of Night of twenty seventeen.

Speaker 2 (01:43:56):
Yeah, that's right, where we doing all San Francisco episode
of just terrible stories of Yes, what a bummer?

Speaker 4 (01:44:03):
Was me stealing toilet paper from bars? Just a dark time,
me going to Berkeley and being scared to go into
the city. The core question of my first years of
stand up were do I have three seventy.

Speaker 3 (01:44:17):
Five to get to the bridge? My gosh.

Speaker 4 (01:44:22):
Lou Goong was born in nineteen sixty three in Beijing, China,
one of three children. His father was a clerk and
his mother was a doctor. Good for them, feminism, that's right, child.
His maskills blossomed in junior high and he won academic
awards and eventual admission to Beijing University. Upon graduation. In
nineteen eighty five, he entered the University of Iowa to

(01:44:42):
study physics. This is a terrible like We're taking like
a Chinese guy to America's heartland, to where all of
our serial killers.

Speaker 3 (01:44:52):
Nothing happened right, everything was used to go on the car, though,
we'll see.

Speaker 4 (01:44:56):
Upon graduation ninety five University of Iowa in ninety a
seventy took Trueman at his tiny apartment, but both found
him slovenly and superior. He was a loner, bad tempered,
and not well liked. He became a graduate assistant and
qualified for a PhD program.

Speaker 3 (01:45:10):
Can I jesus, this guy's going to be a shooter?
Kill his forgiving him a bad grade.

Speaker 4 (01:45:20):
In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, and I you
Professor Choglugong to an international conference in Europe. Upon his return,
he became disenchanted with physics that happens to all of us,
began to fail. He also began to pay process use
for companionship. Nothing wrong with that, just handholding. In nineteen
eighty one, a large cash award he'd hoped for was

(01:45:41):
granted instead to a rival. He was incensed and began
to file complaints.

Speaker 3 (01:45:45):
He also bought a gun, a gun. Here we go,
Here we go, bought a gun.

Speaker 4 (01:45:53):
He received his doctorate, he still complained of a conspiracy
against him.

Speaker 3 (01:45:57):
No, nope, none, no, just go get tangier somewhere.

Speaker 4 (01:46:01):
In September nineteen ninety one, Lou Gong closed out his
savings account, packed up his belongings, and sent them home.
On November first, he walked into a graduate seminar if
he shot his professor, Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:46:11):
Wow, it's like everybody wins on this one, and the
professor's protege I win.

Speaker 4 (01:46:16):
He calmly reloaded, walked into the department chairman's office and
killed him. As students called nine one one. Lou Goong
killed the university associate vice president, the woman who had
been handling about this poor administrative official. Oh my god,
wounded her secretary.

Speaker 3 (01:46:34):
Oh I'm in a secretary. That sucks.

Speaker 2 (01:46:36):
He went to an empty She doesn't even get like
any of the glory of like I'm a professor of this.

Speaker 1 (01:46:42):
She's always wanted to go a woman, watch fucking Nash
Bridges and have a fucking white line.

Speaker 4 (01:46:46):
All she did was file He then he went to
an empty room and killed himself. The sixth victim, murder,
spray and suicide took twenty minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:46:57):
Wait, what year was it, like in the eighties? Was
he one of my first ninety one? See, like one
of the first college shooters? I wonder?

Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
Oh no, I mean aside, if I'm not in college,
So I wondered, did they it's not out of college?
Do they call it a college shooting?

Speaker 3 (01:47:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:47:11):
No, it was out of college. It was in the
University of Iowa.

Speaker 3 (01:47:13):
Yeah. Oh my god, that's crazy. That was crazy. Oh God,
everything's the worst. It always ends this way. Can we
have a good thing?

Speaker 1 (01:47:22):
Because I'm really like this week has been shitty because
I'm looking at Facebook too much and like reading all
these horrible fucking headlines and like fucking Aleppo and all
this crazy, awful shit's happening.

Speaker 3 (01:47:32):
Yeah, let's talk about a good thing this week. I
don't have one, do you guys have I have a
fake good thing?

Speaker 4 (01:47:37):
That is just me, uh taking attempting to leverage your
ridiculous success and make it beneficial for me. But Georgia
Hardstark is probably going to be guesting on my podcast
pop Rocket in January. Nice, I'm sorry. And also, let
me be clear when I said to Karen, Hey, maybe
I could come on and explain some legal things. It
was not just me trying to get on your astonished oho.

(01:48:01):
There was me Yeah, like, look, when we all listen
to podcasts, we all want to yell back at the podcast,
which is essentially the only reason I listened to podcasts,
or just my friend Yes, fun, they look important.

Speaker 3 (01:48:13):
I'm going to fucking Instagram.

Speaker 4 (01:48:15):
Also, you'll get to talk about non You'll get to
talk about murder things, but you'll also get to talk
about some fun non murder things.

Speaker 3 (01:48:22):
I don't know anything about non murder.

Speaker 2 (01:48:23):
Also, we have a little information now, so going forward,
whenever these things come up, at least going to be.

Speaker 3 (01:48:29):
Like I think this was that thing I was talking about. Howmever,
and we can like know it. That's exactly right, and
we'll start wearing office outfits. I will say.

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
My good thing for the week is that I am
lucky enough and I mentioned this on our last episode,
UH to be working on Guy Brandham's new show for
True TV called talk Show The Game Show.

Speaker 3 (01:48:52):
And we sit in a room.

Speaker 2 (01:48:54):
It's actually very much like my favorite Murder family because
we sit in a room with Jamie Lee from our
Bellhouse episode, She's the greatest. Well, Louie Katz, who is
so hilarious, and Chase Bernstein, who is a hilarious stand
up comic who is our writer's assistant, And we sit
in that room and we spend you know, forty five

(01:49:17):
minutes working on the script we're supposed to get done
relatively stand and then we spend the rest of the
day laughing our asses off and very actively talking about
like it'll start, the discussion starts about what we need
to figure out for the thing, and it'll always end
up in like some kind of inner stand up theorizing

(01:49:40):
that is so hilarious, And I just feel grateful that
I have a job that instead of draining me of
my lifeblood, it actually the time goes by so fast
and it is so enjoyable and the opposite of stressful
for fucking ones.

Speaker 3 (01:49:55):
It is the most fun.

Speaker 4 (01:49:56):
And I find so fascinating that headspace where you're trying
to find something to be depressed or scared or sad about,
Like a friend of mine was recently just like obsessing
about the possibility that he might die, and I'm like,
you will that, Yeah, Well, the thing is he's happy,
he's happy, and he's trying to figure out a reason
that he doesn't deserve to be happy.

Speaker 3 (01:50:16):
Well, it's scary to be happy.

Speaker 4 (01:50:17):
So he's like imagining that we'll be taken away from him.
And I think there is something so fascinating about that dynamic.

Speaker 1 (01:50:24):
Yeah, with that, like that mindset of like that's where
you're going right now, and you really don't have to.
I beat myself up about that a lot. Oh it's hard,
it's hard.

Speaker 4 (01:50:33):
Well, And the good thing that we have is that
we're all full of sparkling wine, which is the best fun.

Speaker 3 (01:50:37):
Not reird. I'm the opposite of full of sparkling wine.

Speaker 2 (01:50:41):
But also the thing is guy keeps talking about where
like he'll talk about in preparation for when it all
goes bad, Like you keep bringing that up to me,
and it's so hilarious to me, where it's like we
almost don't even have time for this all to go bad.

Speaker 3 (01:50:54):
It's going to be done so quickly.

Speaker 4 (01:50:56):
Yeah, But I think a basic degree of pronoia is
something any like the lovely thing about la As, You've
seen so many untalented people get amazing opportunity over so
it's so weird. I don't know if I've ever told
you this, but I just think the most hilarious thing
is that the most negative person on the planet, Karen Kilgarriff,

(01:51:20):
who will scoff at anyone's sort of a little project,
that her second podcast is a rousing success.

Speaker 3 (01:51:29):
Personality.

Speaker 4 (01:51:30):
Yes, it completely goes against her personality, Like Karen Kilgarriff
is a person who's like deepest soul, lets go like
a second podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:51:41):
I tried not to start it, but but I was
so persistently really just we had to make it happen.

Speaker 3 (01:51:48):
This was delightful. Yeah, thank you so.

Speaker 4 (01:51:51):
Much, Thanks so much for letting me cross over into
the world of my favorite murder. Because at fifty episodes
or how many episodes, doesn't this will be forty nine?
I cock. Yeah, it's it's been beautiful being taken through
those hundred stories and it's very fun to get to
cross over and get to play with you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:52:12):
We always say how nice it is when people we
like like the podcast. Yeah, that's exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:52:16):
Cool And if you guys haven't already, please listen to
the podcast pop Rocket.

Speaker 3 (01:52:23):
It is so awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:52:24):
They they talk about pop culture stuff, but it's a
it's a it's a discussion. I rel informed as this
show it feels like it's very It felt very produced
to me when I was on it, where I was
almost a little bit like I don't know if I
have the right answer, and you're just like I'm asking
you your opinion. It's like everybody felt very They had

(01:52:47):
big opinions about things, and I was like, I don't
know if I have opinions.

Speaker 3 (01:52:51):
You're just going to get loud and get sparkly wine.
That's right, I can it's not. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:52:57):
Thanks to Stephen Ray Morris of the per cast for me,
our amazing audio engineer.

Speaker 3 (01:53:02):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:53:02):
Still, I'm thankful for this week because when I go
out of town, which is a fucking anxiety written thing
for me.

Speaker 3 (01:53:08):
Because I hate leaving my cats.

Speaker 1 (01:53:10):
The fact that he now takes care of them like
fills my art which away because they love him, and
it makes it less.

Speaker 3 (01:53:14):
Anxious for me to go away. That's awesome. You've got one.

Speaker 1 (01:53:17):
Yeah, yeah, yes, very good you guys, I don't know,
going to my favorite murder and do stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:53:23):
Yeah, go on.

Speaker 2 (01:53:24):
Oh my god, there's games and puzzles and you can
join the raffle. It's gonna be so awesome. Thank you
guys for listening. Happy new Happy new Year, Thank you
for being here with us all through twenty sixteen.

Speaker 1 (01:53:38):
Yeah, we've had a great time. Twenty seventeen. We're gonna
fucking pepper spray.

Speaker 3 (01:53:42):
No, it's a good thing. Yeah, I mean in a
good way. It's not a bo like we're gonna fucking
kick it. We're gonna kick it, you know what I mean. Like,
we're gonna fucking pepper spray. Okay, let's go. We're gonna
make it our bitch.

Speaker 4 (01:53:54):
We're gonna take keys between the knuckles. Twenty seven say.

Speaker 2 (01:53:58):
Seventeens, guys, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 3 (01:54:06):
Bye, Elvis, Do you want to cook?

Speaker 2 (01:54:08):
Eat?

Speaker 3 (01:54:09):
I want to cook? There we go. There was just
like one track of why do you think he sits
out here? Because he fucking knows what's gonna happen. He
comes over here and he he knows.

Speaker 1 (01:54:28):
Oh that's fun. And we also got into some playing cards,
some true crime cards that Stephen got us.

Speaker 3 (01:54:32):
I still have those.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):
I mean, we were really working, we were really producing
this show in a whole new way where we're like,
I guess we'll bullshit ask you questions and then we
better end with something else.

Speaker 3 (01:54:42):
We have those cards.

Speaker 1 (01:54:43):
It's like a variety show all of a sudden.

Speaker 3 (01:54:45):
Yeah, we did it. We can produce whatever. Yeah, thanks Steven,
Thanks Steven for giving us those cards.

Speaker 2 (01:54:52):
So this episode, as we told you, was originally titled
The Great Guy Lawtime New Year Spectacular.

Speaker 3 (01:54:58):
I like that though a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:55:00):
Yeah, I think it's good. But we could also call
it Don't half Asset, which I don't. I don't think
we did. I think we wholl asked it on this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:55:07):
I mean we asked all around he you know, yeah,
God delivered it at one point. I reassure guy, this
is my favorite murder where being wrong is so right.
So we could name it being wrong is so right
because it's fucking true.

Speaker 3 (01:55:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:55:20):
Then dying Utterance, which I say that, I say it
should be the name of the episode because I'm like,
I love that phrase.

Speaker 2 (01:55:26):
Yeah, I do love that it's admissible in court, like
that that idea as it should be very compelling. I mean,
how many more legal concepts are there out there that
we don't know about?

Speaker 1 (01:55:37):
Yeah, that were made up in like the nineteen fifties
and make no fucking sense. But like some random person
used it to get off.

Speaker 2 (01:55:42):
And then a lawyers since that time are like, may
I quote dying utterance v the people?

Speaker 1 (01:55:47):
Hey, you know you know what we're going to find
out next time. Guy is a guest on this fucking show.

Speaker 3 (01:55:52):
That's right, all we can get all those legal Do
you have legal questions? Are you up against it?

Speaker 1 (01:55:58):
Write in and let us let us know your legal
questions in the comments. Name name names, fucking give us
phone numbers we'll call and asks. It'll be so much fun.

Speaker 3 (01:56:08):
It's gonna be so good.

Speaker 2 (01:56:09):
All right, Well, that was the rewind for this episode.
It's like rewinding a weird episode is a weird experience.
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:56:15):
I don't have Yeah, we don't have much to say
because we fucking said it all in the episode, but.

Speaker 3 (01:56:19):
We invited someone else that would say it all so
we wouldn't have to exactly, and we did it and
it worked. It was great.

Speaker 1 (01:56:25):
All right, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 3 (01:56:29):
Goodbye, Elvis.

Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
Do you want a cookie

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 49: The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular

Episode Transcript

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Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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