Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 77: Live At The Keswick Theatre - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all new commentary,
updates and insights.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Today we're recapping episodes seventy seven, which we name Live
at the Keswick Theater from our Philadelphia Live show.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
This episode came out on July thirteenth, twenty seventeenth. So
let's listen to the intro of episode seventy seven.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
What a Philly Oh oh, never's good for you? I
was pointing up there, there's nobody up.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
There, Okay, how you guys have a balcony ceiling?

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Wow? I was like, I think this is much bigger
than it is. No, I'm still pretty big atually. Yeah. Wow.
But that was a good scream that it hits me.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
You know when you walk on and people are all
screaming at you at one time.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
It's great. I started got a try too, and it
felt really good. You just heard what I started screaming
and nobody heard me, and it was like great, Like
do want a fucking weird scream?

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah? Yeah, to kind of a primal thing, right, But
at the top of the show, yeah, yeah, I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Not service now. Yeah, this is the last show of
this fucking tour? You guys. For one second, I almost went,
is it really?

Speaker 3 (01:55):
So?

Speaker 1 (01:55):
We're gonna sack like one of you to night.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
We decided it would be fun to end the tour
with an actual murder. Yeah, yeah, chosen at random, just
like Shirley Jackson's Lottery.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
So don't worry. Everyone has a stone. If you don't
have a stone in your house in your hand, you're
the person with right. We all throw the rocks at
the person without a rock. That's such a.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Good plan, is It's like you're like a you're kind
of like a Shirley Jackson's Lottery director in a way.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Can we get uh? Yeah? Like for the children? Do
they ever have that? In? Killing children? That's what you'd
like to do? They don't. Wait did you what kind
of shoes did you bring?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Well?

Speaker 1 (02:41):
I brought these in more than the first night and
then said fuck that and more like aerosol slipons the
next night, like and then I was like, this is
the last show, I should probably dress up, and so
I put fancy shoes on and fake eye lashes on.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, thank you Georgia for carrying the weight and your dress. Yeah,
we checked this the other game. Missy, miss sophisticated. Miss
it's taking a walk in that outfit deticated, isn't she

(03:16):
a sophisticated.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Miss Get on up here, can kill Gareff and show.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Them your your outfit flats, thank you, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
I brought high heels.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
I think I wore them the first night on Friday night,
and I was just like, I don't know, I like
the slippers feel Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
You know what I mean? Well, that sucks. No, I
totally get it. Should I take I'm taking these off now?

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, whatever you guys saw them, we're just like Alanis
Morris set, all barefoot and fucking We don't get.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
The gin do it? I uh?

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Also, these shoes are my fans, these shoes, but they
have the bottoms like there's just a nail.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
It's just a nail like that. The thing fell off
yours probably decades ago probably, And I'm just like, well,
they're tap shoes now, yeah, click giddy click kick click
click click.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
You should have done a little something, shouldn't ship that's
the next door. There's gonna be a very large, choreographed
home on the next door.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
I think we're kidding We're not kidding.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
We're going to do tear away outfits and I would
personally like to do some sort of a we are
a part of the Rhythm Nation break down.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Well, technically, any outfit is a tear away outfit if
you really put your heart into it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, so yeah, end of the show. That's right, Tarror
all this ship away up. I never want to wear
this dress again. By the way, it smells like smells
like three hotels.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
And yeah, it's not it's not working for me. What
are your favorite memories from this? Thank you for asking, Georgia.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Could I get a spotlight over here please, just from
this weekend or.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
The whole thing?

Speaker 2 (05:10):
The whole thing, you guys has been going on for
a really long time.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
We started February. Started in February.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
In Nope, Oakland, Oakland. Yes, Fox Theater in Oakland. Oh,
we were so young and innocent them.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
I forgot my passport to go to Vancouver the next day.
That's right. It started with some drama. Yeah, and it's
been fucking rock and roll ever since. It really has.
We have a we have a short video of our
highlights to show you. It's a montage right.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Directed by Wes Anderson. Everything's all centered up.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
I think. Then he's not here.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
But I would say this, my favorite memory probably would
be and you're going to have to tell me.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Where it happened.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Okay, right, I'll remember Indianapolis, I think, Okay, maybe Milwaukee.
Oh the girl There was a girl who in the
audience threw up oh and then crawled up the aisle
out of the theater. That is, you're fucking giving them

(06:28):
an idea.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
That's how Karen loved me.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
I mean, yeah, I'm are you got to earn it
if you want it. And I was like, that is
a girl who's doing an impression of me when I
was twenty four.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Again miss her. Last night we had a girl who
ended up doing the hometown murder, but she tweeted at
us and was like, I got I dated a murderer.
And they were like, oh my gosh. And she's like,
in fact, I want to tell it so bad, I'm
going to wait to get blackout drunk till after the show.
We're like, well, maybe we shouldn't pick her. Okay, she
changes her mind, But then Karen fucking Voodoo random picked

(07:00):
a girl in the audience and it was her. It
turned out to be her. Do you understand what that
felt like to me? Yeah? The power that I now know.
I wheeled.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
It was super weird because I have to say I
do I like to do that kind of when you
do the picking right, was like, m we'll see, we'll see,
we'll see. Then there was just something where I was like,
it's going to be this girl over here, but we
already had somebody who had written something out that was amazing.
So she came up and did it, and then we
were like, we have time for one more.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
And then I was like, it's got to be you.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
And Georgia had already written that girl's name down off
of Twitter, written it on a piece of paper in
case we forgot. So the girl walks up and I said,
what's your name? And she is Amanda and then Georgia
just holds the paper up with her name on it
like some fucking and I was like, gosh, and magic.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Tricks with you, and she's like what She's like, let's fuck.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
We were all creeped out. It was the best night.
Let's do it again. Yeah, oh we will, Oh we will.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Don't you hate it when you do something insane and wonderful?
Like that, like when you've turned to the right page,
like the exact right page, or like something crazy happens
and coincidential and your friend is like that's cool.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
You're like, no, I begged her from the audience.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
No, no, it's cool.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, so I gave I gave you your what I
did the you really did?

Speaker 1 (08:17):
We can new man, that's excite last night. You did
it tonight?

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
I thought you were going to say your favorite thing
was when the girl fucking ran on stage. I don't
like that. All right, well we this zow domain. Let's
not let's not repeat that. Yeah, it's kind of triggering.
It's triggering. We've talked so much about her. I don't
think any of it. I want to. I just like, no,
we looks her. What other things? I guess we went

(08:45):
to cracker barrel mines are always food, is it? What
did we eat backstage? We just had some great Chinese food,
crab rangoon, it's always my favorite part. What kind of
snacks do they have backstage?

Speaker 2 (08:56):
I grab rangoon wedemand it it's on our right, it's
on our writer ms nose.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
I don't have that. We're not going on stage. That's
why we're ten minutes late. Yeah, minutes late.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
They had to go to Shrewsbury to get crab Ram
gooon local jokes, don't get local work.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Okay, fine, I guess this is our last shuttle. This
is why.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yep, we went antiquing. Is it not called Shrewsbury? Am
I saying it wrong? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (09:23):
That was wrong.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
I'm saying, yeah, that was right. That's what you said earlier.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, I'm saying the same thing twice. Everyone heres like,
we don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
We did go antiquing. Yeah, lost our minds.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Georgia, this is my favorite. George's like I have to
get these books. I want to get that mirror, and
it's like all stuff you do not want to travel with.
She's just like, what about this old anvil? Let's buy that?

Speaker 1 (09:50):
And Vince was like I don't know, and I'm like,
I'll make it fit. I will get it in there,
get it, and I did. I pecked it today. I
have a fucking shopping problem, like for real, But it
was so cheap, like four bucks for this, Like.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Okay, I have a problem. You had to get it,
but it's a fun problem. You had no choice.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
And then I do that, Like, this is so cute,
but I don't need it. Who could I get this for?
Oh I have a friend who has Okay, I gonna
get it.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Then you're antique shopping for a friend who doesn't probably
want it.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, because it was the thing that made me laugh
was she was buying it was a really beautiful antique
baby dress.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
But also that's haunted. So why would you? Why would you?
That's a very good boy. Lauren's gonna be like fangs.
Oh my daughter is haunted. Night. Thanks for the possession, Georgia.
She was never the same again after that. She just
keeps her head, just keeps spinning around. Her voice got

(10:48):
really deep. Yeah, so thanks for the nine dollars child's dress.
But oh it's a cute. Yeah, what else you know?
So many memories, so many great times.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
White Castle we did uh no nor more food not
white Castle.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Oh we didn't find a white castle. We never got
to white Castle. Shit, I met Cracker Barrel.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, I don't know, which is amazing.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
It's just as good as you all said it would be.
And then yesterday Vince was like, I guess I don't
I don't want to go to the barbecue place that
Georgia wants to go to, but we go to Arby's.
I wasn't mistake. He's standing right over there. No sorry,

(11:41):
he's like he's walking away.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, no, he's driving the rental car away. Now we
have to take a train home.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Fuck.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
I liked Arby's only because, oh yeah, there was a
picture and Vince actually I think put it on Instagram.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Arby's now has a thing called the Meat Mountain. You
guys know about this.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
This is real wooing like they've had it.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
I know, I hope you have.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
The Meat Mountain is an every Arby sandwich in just
two pieces of bread. So it's just like turkey roast,
beef brisket, a fried chicken patty, this this ham whatever,
and it's pork belly, this toll was it?

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, it's so.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
There was a little like a cardboard poster standing on
the counter and as I was standing there looking to
see what I was going to get, I looked down.
I was like, oh my god, and there was a
guy doing the exact same thing. And he goes, oh
my god, that scared of me, which is my favorite thing.
Just a stranger, and I just start laughing our asses
off at Arby's insane, like they're trying to kill us.

(12:44):
They're trying to kill us heart attack Mountain for real?

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Hey, h what Happy Mothers stayed? Happy mother stay? That's nice.
Got a couple of moments. Oh man, a pregnant chick
let us touch her belly. That sounds creepy. What I'm
trying to say is we were after the show. We
were taking some photos with people, and like, you know,
you don't I didn't say anything, but I was like,
there's her. I'm going to let her mention that she's

(13:09):
pregnant because I don't say that. She goes, well, can
I pose with you? Guys? Touching my belly? And like
all I ever want is to touch pregnant. Like when
I see someone pregnant, I can't be Like sometimes I
don't know why. It's like so sweet to me. Yeah,
and like finally someone asked me to do it instead
of me going, can I have? That's weird.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
It's one of the benefits of fame. That and really
great coke and when you combine them, oh my.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
God, next level high. Have you guys ever tried getting
high when you're pregnant? It is next level. All the
mothers in the audience right now are like, I.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Don't like this show, or though I don't like what
they're saying, I don't like what they stand for.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
No, they agreed. You think they're high as balls. My
mom told me she was. She had a glass of
whiskey in a tilin all every night when she was pregnant.
Very am now know She's like, I was stressed, I
had two other children, and then she dropped my brother.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, it's as if that's such a great combination. Like
in the seventies everyone did tail and all. I like
the sound of that so much. My mom used to
always be like, people make such a big deal about
pregnant women smoking. I smoked with both of you, and

(14:31):
I was like, yeah, I had really bad asthma and
Laura's stupid, so what how about it's not a good idea.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
We love our molles. They did a great job wonderful
families that we're both from. What wonderful family. So we
have to stand right next to each other.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Sometimes we're in theaters so big that we literally cannot
hear each other speaking on stage.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
It's super Uh, it's great for comedy. Do you think
in Franklin. What's it called Hamilton? Oops?

Speaker 2 (15:05):
I flung everything in high school.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
You just called it Franklin.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
That was not for laugh But I bet they actually
in Hamilton they do say what did I just pull
out a cute.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Slump of my own hair? Yeah? Oh my god, I'm
so stressed out. How did that happen? She's shedding. Jesus Christ.
I need to take vitamins. No more Rby's for me.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
She was on stage when the first symptom appeared. What
had that happened?

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Everyone remembers it was ominus. Oh my god. Oh well, yep, okay,
I'll bring you soup for whatever happens. Thank you, thank
you so much. Oh we got we got wished Happy
Mother's Day too many times today in like a you
are mothering age, Yes, so congrat and we're both like
fuck no, this is me looking at my phone all

(16:05):
day long, people saying that, Oh, like when they tweet
things and staf like happy Mother's Day to my mom,
to my mom, I'm like, your fucking mom? Oh about us? Wait,
what what are we talking about? I met like strangers
at the hotel. Oh that's right, say, and I was
just like, we're not thank you. I just to thank you,
but you too. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
I'm like, can't you see from my really thick black
eyeliner that I'm no one's mother?

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, maybe they thought Vince was our kid. Hair just
falling falling out.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
I only called your mother because your hair is falling
out in clumps.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Good point, Good point. I posted a photo of my
mom today. My friend texted me and was like, can
I just fucking say I hate people who are like
post photos of their mom and like, love you so much,
thank you for everything you've done to me, Villa bit
And she's like, they're not Their moms are never going
to see it. They're doing it for everyone else. Yeah,
And I literally just said I posted mine. Everyone can
see how hot my mom was when she's young. And

(17:03):
I just wrote if it's not one thing, it's her mother,
which my sister done. Yeah, And so it's like, how
fucking hot my mom is, and so am I? And
then so am I bathed because she was hot? Yeah
that's why I did it.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
But then later you posted a picture of Ted Bundy
and his mother, which I liked a.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Lot of Happy Mother's Day.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
I was looking for an ed Gean mom there's no.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
They don't pose with each other. There was no ed geen. No,
they weren't allowed to touch and his mom.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
There's a lot of rules in that household.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah about mother touching the skin bodies. There's a photo
of there's a skin bodies photo of that. But yeah,
no mother and son.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Right anyhow, Anyways, fire exits are on either side of
the theater and four straight back where you entered.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Drink in this part. It's the last time we're going
to do it for a while. I had a lot
of coffee. I just realized and I'm talking like it.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yes, this is so sad, I know, but great, it's
gonna be super fun. Let's not be sad yet, since
they paid money to come to a show. Yeah, you
came to see us, happy show face shows.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, we're gonna shine. Should we sit down? Let's sit down? Sure? Oh,
look at these haunted seats here haunted. Yeah, like a lady,
here's your here's your sweat towel.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
Oh, thank you, Grant. I'm like dabbing sweat and then
just like pulling hair and here, Karen, are you okay? Nope,
I just I went on vacation to chare Noble. So
do you know I would totally go. I like want
to go there.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
No, Yeah, an guess you can for like a limited
amount of time. They like time it. I'm not fucking kidding.
Oh they say time it.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Like they give you a tour, but it's like we're
gonna dip in for seven minutes, then we're gonna run away.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, and they're like, here's where you're here's where it's
at right now, here's how much, here's how many like
you can go get a tour. But they're like, you're
literally taking five years off your life. Yeah, and I'm like,
who wants to live to be eighty five? I don't cared.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Rather see Chernobyl cut it right down, honestly, tell everyone
on the rest home you went to Chernobyl.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
I do hear there's interesting animals there, right, I have, yes,
the soils all fucked up, so these things are like
growing up. I mean, like a rabbit with a face
on the back of its head.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
I'm I'm down for that. I'm crab rangoon in my teeth.
Crab rangoon. That's the word of the night.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Should I go first?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (19:51):
This is my favorite murder'ry? Everybody thank you for coming,
so are live. Thank you for being you for coming,
because we fucking love doing this. It's so fun you.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
No, I went first last time last night, so I
go first, right, yeah, I believe so.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
You guys wouldn't know.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
And we're back. They're back, I mean on the heels
of the end of our tour. Now we're doing a
live show recap.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
What do you think twenty seventeen end of the tour
would have said to twenty twenty five stop doing this immediately, please,
I don't do it.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
It's not worth it it it's too hard.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
You're so much younger than God. I was fucking thirty
seven then touring. Yeah, now I'm old.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
I mean, lots of time has passed. Yeah, a lot
of time has passed. Yeah, it's really funny. But I
was laughing because the idea where you know, at the
beginning of that there's like, of course, cheering and everything,
but then it like goes quiet, yeah a little, and
then I tell.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Everybody to drink it in.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
And that idea where it's like we've basically manipulated our
audience to be like, well, are you going to be as.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Loud as the lowest anymore? I don't know it.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
It's like there's no quiet moments anymore.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
My favorite other ones where like my ears actually hurt. Yeah,
there's a lot of those on this tour. Yeah. People
really brought the screaming and applauding. That's right. It was
very nice. A lot of talk about outfits, a lot
of outfit issues, a lot of like clothing stuff.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
I think so this last tour, I four vintage every
show except for one, which meant I was uncomfortable in
some way for every show, Like everything just fit a
little wrong.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah it's vintage. Yeah, yeah, but it's worth it, I guess.
I mean, if you're trying to do your thing, yeah,
that's your adjustment.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, you had some gowns this tour.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Well yeah, I mean, like losing weight and being able
to fit into things and feel good about fitting into
things makes.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
A huge difference.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, And like many other things I was doing back then,
it was just like everything was like trying to cope
with this gigantic business that got dropped on our heads.
And so it was like now you're on tour. Now
you have to have outfits right for tour. Now you're
doing a show, but it's not a stand up show
like you're used to.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
It's like a bigger deal and there's more happening. Yeah,
just like pictures taken so you better look fucking good.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Right, I mean that part of it where just like that,
it wasn't my world at all, and suddenly it's like, hey,
are you guys good with us posting these pictures? And
it's like no, like yeah, all of that.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Was a stressor for sure. Yeah. All right, let's listen
to Karen's story about Gary Heidnick.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
All right, Well, I picked a man who I've been
reading about for several days. There's a lot of things
to read about him, and none of them are good.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
And his name is Gary Hidnick. Yeah, they love him.
We always say it this.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Morning, like this is where the ushers are like, holy fuck,
what's going is this?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
What is happening in there? They were cheering for a
serial killing.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Jesus, we got to get that acapella group back. This
shit is weird. All right, I'm gonna tell you a
little something about Gary. He was born in November of
nineteen forty three. His parents divorced two years later, and
then he and his brother went to live with their
father and their new stepmother. Of course, the father is

(23:42):
a bum out, alcoholic, abusive. I don't think he physically
abused them, but he did the classic thing. Gary was
a bedwetter, and so to teach Gary to stop wedding
the bed, he took his sheets and put them out
the windows so the whole neighborhood could see, which also
Michael Lando's father.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Did I know? I thought I heard that recently.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, yeah, little House on the Perry anyone, No, okay,
I'm the oldest person in the room.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Fine, fine, uh oh.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
I told Georgia the other day we were we were
telling childhood stories. I also wed the bed when I
was a child. Yeah, we booked it.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
It was it was lazy. It wasn't that. It wasn't that.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
But I did it up until my mother, who was
a psychiatric nurse, tricked me by one day handing me
as I went to bed juiced. Oh, come here, the
doctor gave me something to give you, and she poured
cranberry juice, like that much cranberry juice into a little
glass and then she goes, drink this. It'll it'll stop
you from wedding the bed. And it fucking did.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
Whoa trick?

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Your fucking kids all up here. She she was a
mind game mom for sure. She had also very very
early on, like when I was she'd go, I can
always tell when you're lying, And then I believed her,
so I stopped lying to her because I was like, well,
she's gonna know because she.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Can tell when I'm lying. She was good, well done, Pat,
All right, Pat?

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, but also don't forget the smoking. Okay, No one's perfect, okay.
So uh, this is a this is a bit of
information about Gary Heidnick that I really enjoy in the
in the way that makes me a terrible person. When

(25:39):
he was a child, he fell out of a tree
and hit his head, of course classically, but it also
deformed his head this injury, so then he was made
fun of at school all the time because he had
a misshapen head. It seems sad now, but then when

(25:59):
I tell you he did now not going to be
sad anymore.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
For Gary. I always try to stop my sympathy because
I'm like, but then he's gonna kill a ton of
people and I'm going to be bombed. I felt bad for.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Him, but also it's a thing of like what I mean,
what it was. It was the fifties. How come we
fall out of a tree and then your head just
stays that way? Like, no doctors or anybody to help out,
just be like, okay, there you go, gear, stay low
to the ground from now on.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Okay. Uh.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
So he ended up dropping out of school and joining
the army, where he trained as a medic and he
actually did very well on the army until he was
transferred to West Germany and he didn't like that assignment.
So there he began to develop odd behavior and he
was eventually diagnosed as having a schizoid personality disorder and

(26:55):
he was honorably discharged with full disability pension. So this
is like a thing that goes through his life where
no one's actually sure if he was working the system
or if he actually had schizophrenia of some kind or
or some kind of mental illness.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
Going to that head fucking shape and you know your answer, Yeah,
that's true. That could have been part of it.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, And he's like, they're like, we don't know if
you're crazy, and he's like, but.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Did you see it? Dicks out? Sorry, let me take
my hat off, but there you go. Ah, yes, okay.
So he comes back to Philly and he decides to
be a nurse. Oh no, uh huh does he do
bad things? Karen? Well, yeah, but not in the hospital.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Okay, it seems like in the beginning he actually really
wanted to be a nurse and help people. He interned
at Philadelphia General Hospital for two years. That was in
nineteen sixty five. Give it up for Philadelphia General Hospital.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
What a great place.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
In nineteen sixty seven, he saved up enough money from
that disability pension payout to buy his own house and
he rented out the bottom two floors, so he was,
you know, a bit of a businessman. He also started
hanging out at the Elwyn Institute. Now this is a
theme that goes through Gary Heidnik's life, and it's very

(28:27):
disturbing because he goes into the medical profession.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
He is a nurse.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
He actually later tried to study to be a psychiatric nurse,
but he behaved so oddly and had such a bad
attitude he got kicked out of the program. But he
started to spend a lot of time at places that
housed the mentally challenged. So he was a predator from
day one. Okay, so, but he was starting to he

(29:00):
was starting to I guess his behavior was affecting his work,
whether it was a put on or not, so he
ended up getting also getting fired from the University hospital
where he had gotten a job. In nineteen seventy his mother, Ellen,
committed suicide, and from there his behavior got even stranger

(29:22):
and worse. In nineteen seventy one, he took a trip
to California, where he decided he needed to start his
own church. Oh you know the natural path nurse minister.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, it's very clear.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
So when he came back to Philly, he started the
United Church of the Ministries of God. Nice long name.
He was the ordained minister. He had about fifty parishioners
and most of them were patients that he had met
at the Elwyn Institute.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Fill that room. Yeah, however you can. Yeah, what I
mean was that bad? It wasn't great, But no, I
just meant. I didn't mean that. I believe you. I

(30:18):
know what your intentions. Okay, you know what I mean.
And now I feel really so conscious about having their feet.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
It's the whole It's real weird, like look at that
barefooted bitch. Yeah, I'm gonna saying all the wrong words,
all right, Okay, Yeah, quick reminder we didn't do any
of these things. Fucking Gary did them, Okay. In nineteen

(30:44):
seventy five, he opened a Merrill Lynch account in the
church's name. Uh, and he started investing in stocks.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Oh no, now I feel really weird. Sucks stocks. Yeah,
oh sucks. I thought you said.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
He was going to make that good sock money baby.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah. Well I was like, oh, he's crazy and how
fitning because I was just no, he's the.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Guy that invented gold toast. Oh my god, tube socks.
That's Gary, all right, the once a little ball in
the back.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
He took fifteen hundred dollars and he eventually parlated into
a half a million dollars, like with good investments and
I don't know, uh, moxie Okay. So he ends up
buying himself a used Rolls Royce, he bought a Cadillac,

(31:53):
he got a customized van because he's a creepy OLDPERV.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
And then he bought himself a new house.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
So during that same time, he also was in and
out of mental hospitals, and he was because he would
get in trouble with the police.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
He would pull guns on people.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
He's super aggressive, a lot of weapons charges and when
they would interact with him, they'd just be like, fifty
one fifty, you're out of your mind.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Okay, So in nineteen.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Seventy eight he begins, this is going to get problematic everybody.
In nineteen seventy eight, he begins dating a mentally challenged
woman named Angeline, and they have a daughter together.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
So one day he decides that they should go.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Oh sorry, her name is Angelique, and they decide they
need to go visit Angelique's sister, Alberta, who is also
mentally challenged, and she lives in a home. So they go,
they visit her, they sign her out on a day pass,
and she never comes back, and so the staff goes
to investigate, and eventually they find Alberta chained up in

(33:03):
Gary's basement. Who Yeah, so she'd been raped and she
had contracted gonor rhea from So he's charged and he's
sentenced to three to seven years in prison.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
That's it. Yeah, it's nineteen seventy eight. This was back
when rape was not that big of a deal.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
So in nineteen eighty three, he's released from prison after
serving four years and four months, and he immediately signs up.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
For a mail order bride service. Yeah, he's a romantic.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
So he starts corresponding with a twenty two year old
Filipino woman named Betty Disto, and he tells her, of course,
I'm a minister, and I have my own church here
in Philadelphia. And eventually, in through these letters, he proposes
to her and he convinces her to fly to Philadelphia

(34:00):
U and marry him. And she does and everything's great
for a week.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Oh my god, not long enough to sustain a relationship.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
No, I feel like you need to build in more time,
more than seven days. Yep.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
But so it's what happens is Betty leaves the house
one day and when she comes back, she finds Gary
in bed with three women. Uh, and she freaks out
and is like, what the fuck is going on? And
then he's like, get in here, you old nut, Get
in here, Betty, you old stick in the mud. And

(34:38):
she's horrified, of course, and baffled. And so then that's
when the mask comes off and he starts to beat her.
He's becomes incredibly violent at all turns, and he basically
just starts constantly bringing home sex workers and mentally challenged

(34:58):
women to have sex with. She's just like, I'm in
the fucking nightmare world and a different country and she
doesn't she doesn't know anybody but him and his friends.
So she eventually turns to the philip Pino community in Philadelphia,
and it is just like, can someone please help me
because I'm like basically abandon here with this lunatic. And
so the people that she meets there say you have

(35:21):
to leave, and you just have to leave and don't
come back, and they kind of set up a plan
for her, and so she one day tells Gary, uh well,
she tries to confront him to say that she's had enough.
This is not the life that he had promised her,
and he beats the ship out of her and raves her.
So four days after that, she says, I'm going to

(35:42):
go out shopping super quick. I'll be right back, and
she fucking bails and doesn't come.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Back for her Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Right, And then she went into some Philadelphia Filipino American
underground and they took care of her and she never
saw her get Yeah. Pretty cool, good job, that's right,
So remember that if you're ever in trouble. Uh Okay,

(36:09):
two weeks later, the cops come and pick up Gary
for spousal rape, for domestic abuse, for in decent assault,
and for involuntary deviant sexual intercourse. Unfortunately, the parole period
for the last for the last sexual offenses that he
had been in jail for had ended the day before. Yes,

(36:32):
so uh, Betty doesn't show up in court to testify
against him, and so all the charges are dropped.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
And which is so insane that you're like, you're a
victim and it's not going to happen unless you come
and fucking reopen all the wounds you're working to get past, right, Like,
can't they just use hearsay?

Speaker 3 (36:55):
No?

Speaker 1 (36:55):
I was always saying that. I was like, that doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
It's not gonna work now, Yeah, but it makes it
so hard.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
So this is basically a turning point in Gary Heidnan's life,
where her leaving him and the lack of control that
he had over her for doing that kind of set
him off in a major way. So this is nineteen
eighty six, It's Thanksgiving and he goes out to find
a sex worker, and that same night, Josephina Rivera had

(37:25):
gone out to try to make some money so she
could get so she could buy her family Thanksgiving dinner,
and so she's out its raining, it's cold night, and
a Cadillac pulls up and.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Makes her an offer.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
She gets in and it's Gary and he drives her
to thirty five twenty North Marshall Street and when they
pull into the driveway, she sees the rolls voices and
she sees fancy cars and she's like, this is probably
I'm gonna get everything done yeah and get out. So
she feels hopeful, you know, She's like, Okay, this is

(38:01):
this is gonna be good, and I'm gonna get my money.
I'm gonna be able to get out of here. So
when they go up to his front door, he pulls
out this really weird looking key and what it is
is half a key, and she asks him what the
deal is and he says, the other half of the
key is already in the lock, so I am the
only person that can open this door because he's the

(38:21):
only person that has the other half.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Right, You're standing there and you're just like, okay, well, okay,
we'll see what happens.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
So yeah, so they go into his house, they go upstairs,
they have sex, and when she is getting dressed again,
and she thinks she's about to leave. He comes up
from behind starts choking her, almost chokes her out.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
She's begging him.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
To stop, and he says, fine, get down on her
knees and put your hands behind your back. So he
handcuffs her wrists behind her back, and then he walks
her down into his basement. Yeah, I wish we had
a picture. Sometimes you have visuals dying to see what
he looks like.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Give me your arm so I can pinch it.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
There's a picture of there's a picture of this basement,
and it's it's not good. It's not finished. He doesn't
have any shelving, it's not swept. It's the creepiest fucking
looking basement in the world. There's a dirty mattress on
the ground, and there's some plywood. The concrete on one

(39:33):
side of the basement has been pulled up and there's
plywood on the ground right. So he and there's a
bunch of exposed pipes and stuff. He takes her and
chains her to these exposed pipes. He sits on the
mattress so she's changed these pipes behind her. Then he
puts his head in her lap and goes to sleep. Yeah,

(39:55):
can you imagine this? Is not how I expected this
to go, and a almost creepier yes, yeah, because he's
just chilling out. So she then, of course eventually also
kind of nods off. When she wakes up, he's gone.
She's still chained to the wall, and she looks around
and she sees that the plywood has been moved and

(40:21):
there is a small pit in the center of the room.
So Gary comes back with some crackers and water, and
he explains he's got a plan, and his plan is
that he's going to get ten women pregnant so he
can start his own family.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Oh my god, uh huh.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
He leaves again. Josephina realizes she's fucked. This is crazy,
this is bad, and she has to get out of there.
So she starts working on her handcuffs and she somehow
is able to loosen some kind of a tie that
she has.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I'm not exactly sure how, but.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
She basically is able to reach up and push open
the basement window and lift herself up, and she starts
screaming out of it. And she screams and screams and screams,
and nobody hears her except Gary. So Gary comes down
and he unchains her from the wall. And he says,

(41:19):
you're not ever going to get out of here, so
stop trying. And then he puts her in the pit
and it's barely big enough to hold a person like.
She's all super smashed up in there, and he puts
the plywood on top of her, and then he puts
like bags of soil on top of the plywood, so
she's totally weighted down and she's totally stuck in there.

(41:39):
And then as he leaves the basement, he turns it
on like the hard rock station and turns the radio
all the way up, so even if she screams, no
one's gonna be able to hear her over the music. Yes,
all right, So she's down in there, and then when
she wakes up, she wakes up to the sound of

(42:00):
a woman speaking and the sound of chains.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
And what's happened is Gary. Gary lets her.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Out, and she stands up and she's all cramped up
from being down that fucking pit, and she sees that
Gary has a half naked, mentally challenged woman with him,
and he's basically brought another woman down into this basement,
and he introduces them because he is nothing if not

(42:28):
a mannered person. Her name is Sandy and he leaves,
and so Sandy tells Josephine her name is Sandra Lindsay
and that she met Gary at the Elwyn Institute. So
when he was going there, he was basically going there
and meeting patients and making, you know, making them believe

(42:53):
that he was their friend, and grooming them to basically
eventually be molested by him and convince them that he
was their boyfriend so he could have complete control over them.
So they are chained to the wall together, and the
next morning they're eating breakfast and uh Witch's crackers, and

(43:18):
they hear a knock at the front door of the
house and it turns out that Sandy's sister and her
cousins are looking for her because they when she didn't
come home the night before, they knew it was bad,
and so they're out on the street. They had found
a friend of Sandy's name Tony, that they knew she
hung out with a lot, and they went to Tony

(43:39):
and they were like, who else do you know that
Sandy knows? And they were like, we know this guy
named Gary.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
She's the first girl. Sorry, Sandy was the second girl.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Josephina is the first girl, and Josephina is, uh, well,
you'll see she's She's in it the whole time, and
it's pretty amazing. So Sandy, uh. So, Tony gives Sandy's
cousins and sister Gary's address and they come and knock
on the door, but Gary just doesn't answer it. And
then when they leave, he comes downstairs and he has

(44:11):
Sandy write to letters to her mother saying I'm fine.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
I ran away, don't worry about me. I'll get a
hold of you later.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
So then he tells the girls that his plan is
he's going to drive into New York and send the
letters from New York. So they see that the post
mark is from New York and they believe that she
ran away. Well, of course, when Sandy's mother gets these letters,
she's like, no, she's never written a letter like this
in her life. This is not this is there's something
even more wrong here. But they take it to the

(44:39):
police and the police will not listen. They are like,
this is a runaway. She's an adult. It's fine, don't
you know. This is just somebody that didn't want to
live with you anymore.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
She's a runaway. They can't get the police to help.
These are all.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Also, I guess I should say all these people are
black except for Gary Heidnik So I think that Also
we had a big, a big part of it. Was
there this out handed dismissal of like, oh, well, don't
worry about them. You know they're they're doing what they
want a lot of people accused of being prostitutes when
they're not, or sex workers when they're not. Really really

(45:16):
shitty treatment. Okay, so uh so, all right, that was
that whole page. I hand wrote this, Okay, but thanks, Yeah,
that's all I wanted a little bit of credit for
my handwriting.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
So now it's three days before Christmas and Gary picks
up a girl named Lisa Thomas as she's walking to
her friend's house.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
She's nineteen years old.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
She is not a sex worker, she's not mentally challenged,
but she is impressed by his car and his generosity.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
He offers to take her to dinner. He's very sweet
to her.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Once she's in the car, she found she finds that
he's very charming, and he tries to get her to
go to Atlantic City with him, and she said, I
can I don't even have.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Good clothes on.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
He pulls out a fifty dollars bill and says, you
can go buy some new clothes right now. And so
she gets caught up and you know this guy, you know,
treating her so well, and at one point he says,
come back to my house. We'll drink some wine and
watch movies. So they do that, and while while there,
she drinks a bunch of wine and falls asleep on
his couch. When she wakes up, he's raping her. When

(46:27):
he finishes, she gets up and is putting her clothes on,
and he does the thing where he strangles her from
behind and gets her on her knees and then handcuffs her.
So then he brings her down into the basement and
he takes the plywood and Lisa. He pulls the plywood
off the pit, and Lisa sees that Josephina and Sandy

(46:50):
are down in the pit, which I can when I
was reading that part of just like can you fucking
imagine that?

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Like there's people.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
This basement's creepy enough, and then it's like, oh, yeah,
you guys move, there's yeah, there's a bunch of people
down here and they haven't been able to get out.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Oh no, all right.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Ten days later he comes home with Deborah Dudley. Now
Deborah Dudley I believe is mentally challenged, but she fights
him the entire time she's there, so she starts, Yeah,
so here's the thing though, he has it so and

(47:27):
he eventually starts manipulating all of them. So if Deborah
Dudley's fighting with him, he beats her, and then he'll
beat the other girls for her having fought him. So
then they start trying to fight her to get her
to stop fighting him because everybody's getting beaten.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
He takes a big like.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Two by four and beats the shit out of all
of them and they have to watch it. Then he
starts he makes them have sex with each other, and
he just stands there and watches. So it's just this
degradation and this beating and mind fucks and mind fucking
so that they are all basically trying to get him
to treat them better. And so it's that thing of

(48:05):
he'll pick one to not beat and he'll be like,
i'll leave you with the stick. I'm leaving. You're in charge.
Anyone misbehaves, you beat them. Then when he would come back,
if nobody had been beaten, they'd all get beaten because.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Somebody should have been beaten while he was. It's all that.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Kind of shit's fucked up happening stuff down there, some
fucked up happening stuff.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
That's what it's called him with textbooks, all right. So on.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Two weeks later after that, he brings eighteen year old
sex worker Jacqueline Haskins into the basement. And then and
then on January eighteenth, Sandra gets caught the second girl.
She gets caught trying to move the plywood off the
pit because they're down. He puts them in the pit altogether.
So he's dug it out a little bit. It's getting

(48:55):
bigger and bigger. He comes down and digs it makes
them watch him dig it while they eat crackers or whatever.
Sometimes he'll bring them really nice food, like he one
day brings them just a huge Chinese food meal and champagne.
So it's just like or it's just or nothing, you know,
totally mind fucking them. So Sander gets caught trying to

(49:16):
move the plywood off, and so Gary hangs her by
the wrist and like one handcuff from the ceiling pipe. Dude.
He leaves her there for a couple of days. So
the other girls are like, she's getting sick. There's something
wrong with her. You have to take her down, and
he's like, no, she's faking. I'm not going to fall

(49:37):
for it. He's, of course getting increasingly paranoid. He believes
they're all plotting against him at all times. He's constantly
ready for them to try to attack him, and he did.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Super super fucked up.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
He would do this thing where he would when he
thought that there was a chance that they were plotting
against him, he would shame them up and then he
would try to shove a screwdriver in their ears because
he thought if they were deaf, that they couldn't plan
anything against them. Oh, no, should we take a quick break.

(50:16):
I can sing some songs from Oliver if you want
me to. I was in it when I was ten.
Do you know the words to the Franklin musical that
you don't?

Speaker 1 (50:26):
I do? Yeah? Sing a little Franklin for us? Okay.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Gary believes that Sandra is pregnant, and that's why that's
why he is.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
She gets sickly, she's lethargic, she is a fever. She
starts throwing up. He says, the only reason she's throwing
up is because she's pregnant, right, Eventually she loses consciousness.
When he comes back, the girls are like, you have
to let her down, and he lets her down and
she just drops to the ground and he kicks her
into the pit. And so when she gets when he
takes her into the pit, all the other girls realize,

(51:02):
now she's dead. No, yeah, this is so horrifying. It's
really bad. Right yeah, now that's the point, right.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah, okay, no, no, no. Nobody's surprised, except for the
one person who was like, my friend can't come. Do
you want to come? I've never heard of the podcast,
I'll come.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Also, my little cousin is here. Yeah, and the rest
of my family is like really nice, normal people, and
she's never heard the podcast, and she's going to be like, mom,
George's cousin, I think there's something wrong with Georgia. Do
you think she's gonna tell on you? She can rat
you out. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, my friend Molly's here and she brought her mom.
Oh my god, having no she had no idea what
was going on, so her.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Baby so sorry. Oh you know what I once did
call Jillian's mom when she was in high school, and
I was like, she's got some slutty pictures up on Facebook.
You should say something you get back at me. That's right,
she's gonna fucking sorry Gelian, that was me.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
But you're too young. Yeah for cleav it. I like
that you narked her out for that. Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay,
save it for college.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah, turn the page. Sorry, no, no interrupting, Please don't be.
I think we needed it.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
So basically, he takes the body upstairs and I mean,
can we just can it get worse?

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yes? It can.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
The girls are don't all down in the pit together,
and then they hear a power saw. She didn't do it,
So in the next couple of days they start to
smell a terrible smell. Of course, not just them down

(52:52):
in the basement, but the whole fucking neighborhood, And so
the neighbors end up calling the police. And when a
patrolman goes by the house nothing, he says, oh, I
just burned a roast, And the Patrolman's like, well, high five, buddy,
I'll talk to you later and he leaves. Yep, So

(53:14):
the paranoid is getting worse. Deborah Dudley is continuing to
defy him. So now he goes into a whole new
level where he's starting to because they're all wearing chains,
and the chains are connected to each other.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
So he strips.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
An extension cord, he strips off the insulation and starts
electrocuting the chains.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, it gets really bad.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
And when the next time Debora Dudley defies him, he
takes her upstairs and when she comes back down, she's
scared out of her mind, and the girls finally get
her to say what is going on? And he took
her up into the kitchen and then he took a
lid off the pot and she looked inside, and Sandra's

(54:01):
head was inside. No, no, no, yes, we're doing this.
Stay with me? Do you not fucking leave me? At
this point, we all agreed that we were doing this.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
God damn it.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
All right, So eventually, basically Debora Dudley loses her shit
and is like what the fuck you know whatever? And
so he gets so mad at her because she's fighting
him so hard. He puts her in the pit and
he puts water in it and then electrocutes her and
he ends up killing her in that pit. Okay, So
now Josephina, who this whole time has been trying to

(54:37):
make a plan.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
She keeps she the whole time.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
She's like, Okay, I'm going to stay on this guy's
good side. So when it would be the thing of
like you get the stick and you have to beat
the girls, she would play along with him just enough
so that he would believe her, because she was like,
I have to win his trust. That's the only way
I'm going to get out of here, and anyone's going
to get out of here because this guy's fucking out
of his mind. So she's trying to play him like
the entire your time that way. So once he kills

(55:03):
the second girl, Deborah, she's like, okay, like I have
to you know, I have to really do something. So
she she's really trying to like pretend that, you know,
like play the wife part, really kisses ass, really like
really act like she hates the girls and wants to
do anything against them for him.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
So finally.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
She uh, once Debbie dies, he makes just a phenis
sign of paper that says I killed Debbie.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
I'm responsible for her death.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
It makes her sign it, and then once she signs that,
he believes that he has her completely under control because
if she goes to the police.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
She's the one that's going to get arrested for that crime. Come.
So she's like, sounds good to me.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
Yeah, what a great plan, Gary, super smart. I bet
that's what's gonna happen. So she signs up paper and
then on March twenty fourth, he convinces him to let
her leave and visit her family, and in return for
doing that, she promises that she'll bring him back a
new girl. Oh yeah, And so he's like, that sounds great.

(56:13):
Plus I have the paper you signed, so this is
this is a lock. Everything's awesome. He drops her off
at her apartment and says, I'll wait for you at
the gas station. She runs up into her apartment. Her
boyfriend's sitting there. She's been missing for.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Four fucking months months months. She runs in. She's screaming.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
She's like, I been chained up in a basement, this
fucking lunatic or whatever. And the boyfriend's like, you're crazy.
Are you on drug? She got out, Swear to God,
Swear to god. She couldn't look like like, no, she
probably didn't look great, but she ends up showing him
all of her scars and her where that like the
huge wounds where the chains have been and he's like,

(56:55):
oh shit.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
So she broke up with him after what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Or maybe their love got even deeper and stronger, and
he was like, I'll never doubt you again.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Baby.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
There we don't know. What we do know is that
he called the cops. When the cops show up, they're like,
you're crazy and yelling, and then she's like, how about
you take a look at these huge gouge marks everywhere
on my body?

Speaker 1 (57:20):
And they were like, holy shit. And so they go
to the gas station.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Gary's just chilling out in his Cadillac waiting for his
lady to come back, and they arrest him, and then
two officers go to the house. Yeah, so of course
they can't get into the magical front door.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
That did work. He was right about that.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Oh my god. I mean, it's kind of a great idea.
It's pretty I'm ever thought about before.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Fuck.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
So, just before five am on March twenty seventh, nineteen
eighty seven, the police arrive at Gary's house. They break
down that front door, and they go down into the basement,
just like Saphenas said they needed to. And down in
the basement they find Jacqueline Askins. They find Lisa Thomas.

(58:09):
They're both naked and chained to the ceiling pipe. They
free them and then Lisa points to the plywood and oh, sorry,
there was an skipped apart. He had gotten another girl,
another sex worker named Agnes. Agnes was in the pit,
so they pulled the plywood off and she was down
in the water in the pit.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Then they go into the kitchen. Uh uh, stay out
of the kitchen. Yeah, I mean no, they gotta go.
That's the thing. You gotta go in the kitchen.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Now, in the kitchen, they find what looks like human
ribs in the oven, and when they open the freezer
they find a human forearm. What yes, So basically he's arrested.
He is tried and convicted on eighteen charges. Two counts

(58:57):
of first degree murder, five counts of rape, six counts
of kidnapping, four counts.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Of aggravated assault.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
His he tried to claim that Josephina was his accomplice,
and this amazing judge I believe her name was Judge Abraham,
when he tried to argue that his You you have
to read about the story. His defense lawyer is such
a scumbag. Like everything he says is the grossest thing
you've ever read. And so one of his his attempts

(59:26):
at a defense was that it was Josephina's idea yea,
and that he had tried to hit Josephina was his accomplice.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
And the judge was like, because he was.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Trying to plead insanity, not guilty by the reason of insanity.
And the judge was like, well, then if you were
smart enough to get an accomplice, you're not insane.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
And then they're like, oh no, no, then she's.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Not okay, get that cancel, that cancel, that cancel. So yeah,
it it so insane. Oh and then this so the
the the final blow against the defense and by the prosecution.

(01:00:05):
It's just so amazing is they call Robert Kirkpatrick to
the stand and that's Gary Heidnick's broker at Merrill Lynch.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
What his sockbroker, yep. And they get that sockbroker on
the stand and that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Guy says, he testifies that Gary was an astute investor
who knew exactly what he was doing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
So there goes the insanity defense. Yeah, that's right. He
gets convicted.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
He's sentenced to death and on July sixth, nineteen ninety nine.
He's executed by lethal injection, and.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
I kind of like this. No one came to claim
the body. No, they're like, no thanks. And if any
of that sounded familiar to you, Gary Heidnick's crimes and
the basement scene was the inspiration for Buffalo Bill in
Silence of the Land, yay, that's where that that's where

(01:01:08):
that came from. I just gave myself chills. That was weird.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Isn't that crazy? As soon as you were like basement pit,
loud music, fucking mister, I got your dog, I'd fuck
me the whole nine yards.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Catherine Martin, you're safe, I remembers that, are we This
isn't proper, it's not it's not right anything we're doing. No. No.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
So that's the story of Gary Heidnik Philadelphia. That's your guy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Excellent, excellent, so awful, so awful, so bad, horrible, disgusting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Well, now that's my turn.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
I'm gonna put my shoes back on, of course, because
I just feel creepy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
So well, you need some shoes. Feel creepy?

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Do you feel like do your your feet feel hot
with the eyes on your feet?

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Well, just knowing that these could easily go on Wiki
feet these where there already are photos on my feet? No,
what yep? Do you guys know about Wiki feet?

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
You know how if you put you put like an
actor and actress that's usually just an actress, an actress's
name into Google it. If you put the name in
you like, one of the things that will come up
underneath it is that person's name.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
So it's like Deborah Messing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
One of the first things that will come up underneath
is the suggestion is Debora Messing feet?

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Oh no, I didn't know that there's so many foot
fetishists out there. Well, there's a Wikipedia for feet and
like any if, like Deborah Messing was at the beach,
it'll just be like a close up of the photo
of her feet and then they grade them and like
they comment on them and like great toes, like or
she needs a manicure, but otherwise I like her arch

(01:02:51):
my fucking kidding, Wow, So check that out when you
get home.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
I better stay covered up for the rest of my
life because I have Fred Flintstone feed Like you would
not believe.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
I'm dying to look you up on that right now,
let's get it up on mom it simply cannot be Okay,
we're back, Karen. Any updates. There are some updates.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
So in that story, there were small but conflicting details
about how Josephina escaped, So it depends on what source
you read. On oxygen dot com, it says that she
managed to gain Heidnik's trust and that led him to
bringing her on errands and rewarding her with a phone call,
which then they say she then used to call the police.

(01:03:39):
But then there's other outlets like People Magazine, you know,
major outlets that say she escaped him and flagged down
a police officer. The Philadelphia Inquirer, meanwhile, kind of blends
the two versions, saying she won his trust, was given
twenty five minutes of freedom to see her family, but
then ran to a payphone as soon as he dropped
her off for a visit, and that's when she dialed

(01:04:01):
nine to one one.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
But we see this happen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
All the time though, in like there are outlets that
get the information from other outlets, trusting that source right
and when that original source was in chrest.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
I think it's all convoluted.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
And we are that source sometimes that's giving me incorrect information.
So survivors Jacqueline Askins, Lisa Thomas, and Agnes Adams originally
wanted to press charges against both Gary Heidnik and Josephina
because they felt like Josephina had stepped into the role
of the trusted captive and she didn't do anything to

(01:04:35):
help them, But the DA declined a prosecutor and explained
Josephina was forced to participate in crimes under extreme duress
and noting ultimately that she saved them.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Wow. Yeah, so those are the updates.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
I think it's like that's it's good context too in
talking about that story, because that is what happens to
It's like she was a victim, just like the other victims,
but then she was being laid by this insane person.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Yeah, but she had to play her own game right
to survive. Yeah, horrible situation, definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Okay, now let's get into Georgia's story about Edward Gingdrick.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
All right, well, my murder. There's only one person who
gets murdered, so it's a little more lighthearted. Okay, nice,
we'll end on a note. Glad we're ending on this one.
Uh all right, this is the story of the only
known case of homicide committed by an Amish man, Edward

(01:05:40):
gender Rich. We'd say that second part again, Edward Gingrich. Oh,
Edward Jewish Gingrich? Got it Gingrich? And he's not Jewish, Okay,
he's Amish, Amish, he's an Amish man. Yeah, okay, so
picture an Amish guy. Okay, kind of hot, just saying.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
It's kind of a Vigo Mortensen in witness situation.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Yeah. Did you see me pause up here because I
was like, you shouldn't say that, then said it anyways,
got to okay. He is born on August eighteenth, nineteen
sixty three, in an Amish family from Rockdale Township, Crawford County, Pennsylvania.
He was said to have been somewhat of a rebel
in the Amish way of life from an early age,

(01:06:27):
which he chewed gum. I don't know what's a rebel.
He kicked his rock one time. Yeah, he didn't ork
for three hours one day. He put brown sugar on
his oat mail. Whoa Edward is? Frock and roll?

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
God, I'm so into Edward. He wears his hat at askew.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
His family reasoned that, and he was so he was
a rebel. He was kind of crazy, like you know,
wild and his family was like, well, if we get
an unwaveringly faithful woman to marry him, she'll be a
good influence. And so they married him off December second,
nineteen eighty six. He's married to an Amish woman named Katie,

(01:07:12):
and people in their community are like, Katie, don't do that.
They were like a bunch of people were like, I
don't fucking believe in this, huh, which is like you
have to get married. And they were still like because
they thought he was a greed. I think that they
were worried. Yes, okay, they were apprehensive. That's not my word.
I don't say that. They had three kids, Danny, Enos

(01:07:35):
and Mary, and he was starting to show signs of
behavioral changes after the marriage, and they became more and
more noticeable. By July of eighty eight, he lost a
ton of weight, became super depressed, and he spent a
lot of time in the wood shop, and he got
more and more interested in the machinery of the Amish people,

(01:07:56):
but also with interacting with non Amish people. Everyone's known
as the English. Did you know that?

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Like, everyone here is the English unless you're Amish.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Oh my god?

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
Is there? They're like my first day of Rumspringer, I'm
gonna go to a murder podcast. Someone.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
There's like a group of kids that are having the
most awesome rumps breed right now. They're just ugging like
we're going to go from a barn to a murder podcast.
And they were like, shit, she's reading our only hometown murder.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
Ah. Oh, that's the one. I was gonna do him. Okay.
So while he was working in the woodshop meeting English people,
he befriended a non Amish man named David Lindsay, who
told him that unless he renounced his Amish faith and
became a born again Christian but which he was, he

(01:08:53):
would go to Hell.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
I dated one of those, uh uh. I swear to
God that he was like in college, the first guy
dated trick to me, he was. We called him the
secret born again Christian because he was in the theater
department and he never talked about religion at all until
he and I started dating.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Dating, and he.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
Was like, Karen, I just need you to say these
seven words. I was like, I'm already Catholic, Like I
think Jesus has got his eye on me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
I don't need your bullshit. Wow. Yeah, did you dump him. No,
he don't me man, I would have made up my
mission to corrupt him and then be like okay, but bye,
I wish I could have. I was like, huh what
the Lord? Who do do?

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Do?

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Okay Christian? Then oh? And also that he would go
to Helen then he was, and that led him to
believe he was being confined and held captive by his
wife Katie. So Edward's mental state it continues to deteriorate.
He begins hallucinating and has a psycho break that scared
his entire community, but seriously starts ripping his hair out,

(01:10:06):
claiming that's it's on fire. It's hair, his hair, That's
what's happening with my hair? Oh, we all forgot to
mention your hair is on fire.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Why wouldn't you tell me? It's just a very small
smoldering fire. It didn't look that bad. We let it
o God, it's kind of cute. We thought it was
your look. That's the new look, smothering fire.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Sorry, hair fires. Okay. So Katie found her husband in
their bedroom spitting at the ceiling and mumbling to himself.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
And she was like, sorry, isn't spitting at the ceiling
spitting at yourselves.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
That is a good That is a good point unless
he was really good at spitting. Yeah, unless you go
playing out the side. No, no, still when it works okay,
and that at that point she was like, that's it.
Can't She couldn't. That was the limit and limit. She's like,
pull your hair, nuts on fire, you're the devil.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Yes, spinning on the fucking see it out.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
And then they do this thing that almost people don't
fucking do. She's like, call nine one one. This is wow.
She's like, I can't get this. How did they do that?
They send a cow out into the street or something,
says call nine one one on it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
They light a candle, put it on a cow's back,
push it into the road.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
Send the nine one one cow. Listener's fucked. We are screwed.
I wouldn't. I would say that we're going to get
a lot of mean emails, but no one's listening down.
I can't say shit to us. Oh wow, this is
I feel free, Like for the first time on this podcast,

(01:11:50):
it feel so free. Shit on whoever I want. Stephen,
don't cut this, Stephen, leave it in and turn it
up louder.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
The nine Missed People it was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Okay, so he uh he, so he's also okay. Eventually,
uh so Edward gets treated as a psychiatric hospital in Jamestown,
New York, where he's diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, and
he's given medication, of course, and it started to help

(01:12:29):
his hallucinations. But when he got home, he was like,
this is putting me in a zombie state. And he
didn't like it. So he did what everyone does at
some point in their medication therapy. Is he's like, I'm good.
Quit Yeah, you know, yeah, don't do that. But but
I mean, if you want to get off, like, just
just don't quit. We're both doctors. We should have said

(01:12:56):
that at.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
The beginning of this Oh My God podcast that we
should said medical doctors.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
But his wife was encouraging him to stop as well,
because she was a traditional Amish person and she, you know,
wanted she just wanted things to be better. Yeah, yeah,
she okay, but his state of mind continued to decrease.
He started saying he was the devil. And then on
Marching nineteen thirty three, Katie and Edward, what did I say,
thirty three? Nope?

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
But is it went back in time in the Amish
time machine, which is a pile of hay.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
That isn't I had first. That isn't right, and that's
not what I wrote. Oh it's nineteen ninety three, right, okay.
So Edward and Katie are having an argument and she
starts getting worried about it and his temper, and she

(01:13:52):
sends their six year old son to run and get help,
but the two younger kids stay behind. At that point,
he runs and gets his uncle. His uncle goes back
to the house and by then Katie was long dead.
Oh it started that. He punched Katie in the face,

(01:14:13):
knocking her to the ground. Then he beat her to death.
Oh my god. Sorry he had with his boots. He
stumped on her skull until it was left unrecognizable. And
then it gets worse. Oh, he removed so she's dead.

(01:14:34):
He removes all her internal organs. Oh shit, places them
in a neat pile. How Karen's gone bullshit on this?

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
He said, no fucking way, show me a neat pile
of large intestines.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
I'll give you twenty five dollars. That's bullshit. I'm sorry, No,
I talk to you. I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
No, I'm glad that you said that, okay, because I hadn't.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Thought of it. And as soon as she said it
was like, oh yeah, oh no, someone just say that
to make it seem even worse. Okay. So and he
did all this while his two young children were in
the house.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
No, And then he said for some reason later that
for some reason he thought they could save her. So
he was like trying to keep her organs to like
in a clean pile, to like save her later.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
So he was just totally psychotic break not in the
real world anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
So they run and call nine to one one and
they found the amties arrived and found a scene so
horrific that one of the ampties immediate left to vomit. Yeah,
and Edward was gone, and so were the kids. But
don't worry. They found him later that day walking in

(01:15:58):
the country road with his kids, and the kids were fine, okay.
Edward's arrested pleads insanity. The defense argues that Edward was
affected by the fumes he inhaled accidentally in the workroom
of the wood place, the woodhouse, the workroom, what do
you call it, the wood room, the woodroom, It doesn't

(01:16:18):
sound right. The work would the wood oh, the wood workroom,
the woodworking room, the wood working room. There it is Stephen,
Stephen speed that whole part up play the holding backwards Stephen.
So they're saying like he was in an unventilated room

(01:16:39):
where they were using solvents all the time, and he
went out of his mind because of that. But it
sounded like a lot of stuff was saying that before that.
He was, you know, it was almost to the gum.
It's the perfect the perfect storm. Yeah, there was already
stuff happening, right, Okay, So the Amish community shuns him
at this point, which is like the severest sin is
strength from the Amish ways without repenting. So he's punished

(01:17:02):
with excommunication, which is like fucking huge. While in prison,
Edward says he starts following a new religion and signs
a document saying he's an evangelical Christian. So maybe he
met your ex wifeend. Yeah, he's probably good friends with him.

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
So okay, my dumb one week college boyfriend pops up
from the side. I just need you to say seven words, Edward.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
Uh, I don't know where. Oh, he's tried. He's sound
guilty of involuntary manslaughter, but mentally ill quote, and he
sentenced to a term of two to five and a
half years was this Amish court, which means he was

(01:17:51):
eligible for parole by a nineteen ninety five. He's denied
his first bid, but he is granted his second.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
So sorry, because it was not guilty by reason of insanity,
then he only has to Okay, Yeah, but they don't
put him in a mental hospital.

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
They put him in a state correctional institute. Okay, So
I don't know, it doesn't sound like and maybe there's
a mentally ill a ward. Maybe let's pretend. Okay. So
after five years in ninety eight, he gets released. He's
thirty four, he's released, and after of course, yeah, mentally
health Okay, he moves into a mental health facility in Michigan.

(01:18:31):
And he also lived in Indiana before returning to the
Brown Hill Amish community in February two thousand and seven.
And then then they put him in like a thing
for mentally ill Amish people. I guess there's like a
one room somewhere with all the which probably kind of fun.
No no, no, no, they killed people. Sorry, he killed people.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
It's hard not to just try to imagine things about
Amish people. It's a mysterious and there's lots of barns. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
Interesting, And it's hard on a podcast not to say
the first thing that pops into your mind and then
regret it. Right, it's kind of what we do, yeah,
kind of our jam. You just roll the dice and
help you. You don't say anything stupid that it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
So it's it's quiet, like when people are like, oh,
I don't want to tell her.

Speaker 1 (01:19:22):
She's saying exactly what she does.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
I know, Like I just want to saying stupid And
we're like, uh, you listen to the book.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
You don't know where Delaware is. We all know, Oh
they're right over there.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
You don't know, but twenty five percent and a quarter
are the same thing. Hey, we live, we learn, just
like Alanis Morris had said one time.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
Okay, so he'd been out of prison for eighteen years
and he's living on his attorney's property in Cambridge Springs, Pennsylvania,
which is like, oh, it's so like sweet, yeah kind
of you know, even though like the attorney was like, oh, I.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Know he killed her, but he's nowhere to go. He's
mentally ill.

Speaker 1 (01:20:12):
So he's living there for about a year when at
forty four years old. He goes out to the to
the horse barn and in the morning and his the
husband and wife attorney are like where is he? And
the wife goes find some He hung himself.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's wow.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
He had written. The only suicide note he left was
a message on top of a dust in dust on
top of a bucket that read forgive me please. That's
so almish.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
He's like, I can't use a pencil capper, so I
have to write on a bucket.

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
That's part of the rules. Fuck yeah. And so the
attorneys his community completely deserted him. They shunned him, They
kept him from rejoining his family, which I guess the
family his immediate family did want to.

Speaker 2 (01:21:07):
Like take care of him and take him back, and
they wouldn't let him. The wouldn't let him take him back.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
He was an awfully good person and he could have
helped his community a lot. I don't know about that one. Hey.
I mean, here's the thing. Listen, looks a lot to learn. Listen,
look and listen. Despite all that, he was allowed to
be buried in Amish cemetery with an Amish headstone. Cemetery

(01:21:35):
no celebration. What are they called funeral?

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
Yeah, but like the organ you know, the you know
what I mean? No, I don't, okay, like an Amish burial.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
Like they said, the prayers are their prayers and so okay,
I guess not what they're guessing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
Oh, it's called h.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
And the journey said that that's all he would have wanted.
So it was the only as far as I could tell,
at least of the time, it was the only known
case of a homicide committed by an Amish man.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
I bet there's other ones and they just won't tell
us about it. There enough, right, Yeah, that was amazing.
I was Edward Gingerich. Good guys, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
There's the lights come up and there's just a row
of hats in the back. Oh my god, we heard
what you said about all. I don't know that. What's
the accent? That was weird? My god, it's not the accent.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
And it's called a ceremony, Georgia.

Speaker 1 (01:22:43):
Oh, someone did yell ceremony. That's what I bet, ceremony celebration.
You had ce right, I did.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
I shouldn't keep drinking this coffee, do it?

Speaker 1 (01:22:54):
Chug it, chug it, chug it? O cold all right,
we're Beecca. What are the updates for this story? Well,
there's no case updates. But while Edward Jinderick is widely
considered the first Amish person to be convicted of homicide,
it would be inaccurate to say he's the only known
Amish person to have committed murder. In two thousand and nine,

(01:23:17):
an Amish man named Eli Weaver conspired with his mistress
to murder his wife, and he ultimately pleaded guilty to
conspiracy to commit murder rather than a homicide charge, but
he played a central role in his wife's death. And
since this episode was recorded, there have been additional homicide
cases involving Amish defendants. I mean, it makes sense. It's
like it's a closed culture.

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):
So any of those kinds of cases or things that
have happened, nobody's really known about, right.

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
They keep it in their circle. But of course, you know,
people snap in any fucking culture. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
Yeah, Okay, we have two hometown stories from this show. Listeners,
Alana and Andrew are going to tell us their hometowns.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
Now, do you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Have time for au?

Speaker 1 (01:24:01):
I think we did. We cannot. Yeah, let's do it
to the one mom out here. This is one of me,
ask one of your one of your fellow audience members
to come up and tell us their hometown murder. Now,
I let you you're amish. We'd love to see you,
that's for sure. What do you think? Wow, it goes

(01:24:28):
back so far. There's so many empty seats.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
Let's get that arm in the back on the right where. Yeah,
and there's somebody holding guy worms.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
Wait, oh that lady with the shoes.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
Yeah, okay, do you ever I mean you see two
empty seats?

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
Do you ever think?

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
What did they fight about on their way here? And
turn around? I want you to want to do the dishes.
We're going at home. Man, they had a big fight. Yep,
that's so like intense. Dear Karen and Georgia, we broke
up on the way. I hope you're happy.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
Okay, Vince is gonna come get you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't even tell you anything about it.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
There's two people. Uh oh, I think you can both?
Oh my god, what if you both fistfight right now?
Last man standing or a woman?

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
I yes, you look crazy? So this this like young
young lady.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
Yeah, you have to walk down that way and you
have to slide your butt across people's laps.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
Do it. This was a case of random gesturing into
the audience gone wrong. That's right, not right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
It's very hard to be accurate in some situations.

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
Can we get the lights down or they're going to
freak out when? Oh, I want to look at it. It's
real scary to see all of you, especially you up there.
You guys are the scariest of all guys.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
What the full?

Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
It's your name, Andrew? What are you doing on stage? Hi?
The fuck?

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
Was that the sound guy?

Speaker 1 (01:26:05):
What was that? There's just some dude wandering around back there? Yes,
it was the sound what's your name, Bob? Don't be
mad at me, Bob, Bob, Bob? Thank you? Okay, girl,
First girls, First girls? First? Do you stand back there? True? Oh?

(01:26:27):
It is really great. And that's your name.

Speaker 3 (01:26:29):
My name is Alana. I'm here with my friend Elena
and we actually that's nice, same friends because of the show.
We like the Probably the second time we talked to
each other, we told each other that we like the
show and bought you get So we.

Speaker 1 (01:26:43):
Are lovely, very nice to be up here. Shaken a
little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:26:48):
Sorry, I actually took my shoes off to like, wait,
they're kind of wonky right now, you have to slide
them back on the real fast.

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
Just you know, you don't seem nervous, so don't worry
about it. Yeah, I see the shakya you got well,
look me too though.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
So my hometown, Murner is also it's like a mixture
between a I survived yeah and murder. Yeah, it's good,
it's good. It's one of the fames. Those are opposites,
I'll trust you. So I'm from Delaware. Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:24):
Born and raised.

Speaker 3 (01:27:25):
I grew up in Newark, live in Wilmington. Now so
all right, thank you, thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (01:27:30):
You're nervous asius. I work in politics, so I'm awesome.
We yeah, murder politicians.

Speaker 3 (01:27:44):
So I grew up in a very suburban neighborhood in Newark, Delaware.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
University of Delaware. Stop me in their cities and tell
me stories. Okay, I like it. It's good. So we've
done another story to Sorry, it's not that long.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
So there was so the neighborhood that I grew up in,
very nice neighborhood, like nothing happened, kind of just like
a sleepy neighborhood.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
We like played all the time outside and all that
kind of shit.

Speaker 3 (01:28:16):
So one day there was this woman in like the
front of the neighborhood, so like you could see the
house from the main road that was that would go by.
So she was like out tending to her rose garden.
That's important. And so she's like sitting there and I
guess somebody drove by. And he worked at the local

(01:28:39):
Chrysler plant, which went out of business, which was a
big deal for Nore, and.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
He saw what he liked. He I wish I could
show you a picture, but it's fine. Her.

Speaker 3 (01:28:54):
He drove to the front of the house, which was
kind of like the side of the house because of
the way that the neighborhood was set up, and he
like nobody knows, there was like a bus stop right there,
Like it was a beautiful day. Everybody was out and
nobody saw him. And he went into the house because

(01:29:16):
nobody locked their doors. It was the nineties. I was
probably ninety eight.

Speaker 1 (01:29:21):
I think I was four.

Speaker 3 (01:29:23):
So he went into the house and he waited for
her to come in, but she didn't come in. First
her husband came in and he shot him.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
Who shot who?

Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
Wait?

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
Who shot? Who? Oh? The bad guy shot the Doug. Yeah,
why would the husband shot.

Speaker 3 (01:29:42):
The bad guy, wouldn't that That's like not even murder,
that's like defense, you know, you know, just saying so.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
Ala Alima.

Speaker 3 (01:29:56):
So I guess the woman's name is so Debbie. Didn't
hear the gunshot, I guess. So after she was done
tending to her roses, she came in the house and
there was this man standing there and he fucking kidnapped her,
put her in the back of his car and drove
her to his house like five miles away and tied

(01:30:18):
her up and just like repeatedly raped her over the
course of several days.

Speaker 1 (01:30:23):
And she was it was your story.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
Yeah, she like befriended him and like made her trust
him and was like, he would like go to work
for the day while this woman is just like tied
up in his house because he's fucking horrible, and then
he would just come home and rape her. So one
day before he went to work, she was like, you
know what, these ropes are like really hurting my wrists.

(01:30:49):
Do you think you could loosen them or something? So
he loosened them because he trusted her, and she managed
to like get out of the room that she was
in because he was not as smart as Gary. He
did not keep her in the base meant with chains.
So she managed to call nine one one and like,
I mean, they came and got her and everything was fine.

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
She lived.

Speaker 3 (01:31:11):
So there was the I Survived, Yes, But the best
part of the story is that, well, actually there are
two really good parts. My parents were in New Orleans
at the time, and this was like national news, like
people were talking about the neighborhood I grew up in
was called Academy Hill, and so they were calling it Academy.

Speaker 1 (01:31:27):
Kill or Murder Hill and in New Orleans.

Speaker 3 (01:31:31):
And my parents are like, holy fucking shit, I'm not
gonna live there. So my grandparents had come to take
care of us, and I distinctly remember riding my tricycle
like towards the house and my grandmother chasing after me
because like at that point they still hadn't found the
woman and like she's like, they're fucking cops everywhere. Yeah,
So that was one good part. Another good part is,

(01:31:53):
like probably six years ago I was watching I Survived.
It was the first time I ever watched it, and
they like in that show, they kind of show you
like a nice little clip rather than and it's like
it's nice. It's like a breeze flowing right, so it's
not cheesy or anything. And so they show this clip

(01:32:13):
of these rose bushes in front of the house, and
I was like, why does that look so fucking familiar?
And like the neighborhood I lived in, there were only
like three different houses and they just like made a
billion of them.

Speaker 1 (01:32:27):
So, like I, it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:29):
Ended up being Debbie and it was really fucking creepy.

Speaker 1 (01:32:32):
But she has an episode of I Survived.

Speaker 3 (01:32:34):
He has an episode Surved and it's really good. I
don't remember which one it is. It has been forever
since I've watched it. Probably should have watched it before
I did this, but I did not think this was
gonna happen.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):
You just good dad, as much a really good.

Speaker 1 (01:32:46):
This well done. Nice to me, you too, Thanks for
being here.

Speaker 2 (01:32:51):
Go ahead and take that mic from her, think all right,
you come over, thank you, I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (01:32:56):
I had to give it to Bob. Yeah you can
get out here with Andrew. Yeah him so high. Thanks
you for being here.

Speaker 4 (01:33:05):
So surreal right now, like why you guys are real people.

Speaker 2 (01:33:09):
I know it's not weird to go they're all watching them.
Oh man, so we know any songs from Franklin.

Speaker 4 (01:33:20):
You know, it's funny. I had never heard of Hamilton,
and I'm a teacher, so all the other teachers like
you never heard of Hamilton, but you know now right, yeah, okay,
my story is actually about a coworker that I had
at one of my first jobs. So uh, of course
a lot of you guys know in here the most
wonderful plays in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
Christmas Tree Shop?

Speaker 3 (01:33:43):
What is it?

Speaker 4 (01:33:44):
I'm from Connecticut and they have a store called Christmas.
They have a story called Christmas Tree Shop, and it
just sells like all the bullshit that you can't find
anywhere else around if you if you want like a
Flamingo man of old tin cans. It's like painted all
nice and it's right next to the dog food and
right next to the gummy bears, and right was like
crazy shit.

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
Wow, right, So wait, why do they call it Christmas.

Speaker 4 (01:34:06):
Tree Shop because it's like a bunch of just random stuff.
They don't sell Christmas trees.

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
They don't sell anything christ then, okay, they need to
get their stories straight exactly. It's really weird.

Speaker 4 (01:34:15):
So there was a guy in the stock room named
Zachary Lapalooza and.

Speaker 1 (01:34:20):
I've done at his music.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Yes, sorry, sorry, I'm very sorry about he grabbed it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
It was there and you grabbed it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:34:30):
Oh it was when I was like thirteen or fourteen.
Actually know I had to be like sixteen because it
was working on So I was like I was around sixteen,
and he used to do stock room. He was like
twenty six twenty eight. He had like a bowl cut
that made his head look exactly like a penis why
exactly how how like it was just like if he
had if he had like his haircut was like like

(01:34:55):
perfectly like, and so he had a penis bowl that
they kept, you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:35:00):
Yeah, it was it was bad. It was bad.

Speaker 4 (01:35:06):
But he was a really quiet guy, really like mild
man or whatever. Every time I used to come in,
he used to be the one to open the door
in the back, so I used to walk in May
I went up zagon like go to work whatever. But
we had another manager named I think her name was
Sean Trees. But apparently they had had some kind of
problem where he fell off a ladder and did something
or other. She said that it was his fall, so
he didn't get Workmen's company.

Speaker 1 (01:35:26):
He got fire. Oh, he flipped a shit, came in
the next day, was like, where the fuck is she?

Speaker 4 (01:35:33):
A guy that I had never known to be like angry,
He was really quiet. He just came and freaking out.

Speaker 1 (01:35:38):
You were there? No I was not.

Speaker 4 (01:35:39):
Yeah, no no. By this time I had gotten fired
for coming back later on my brain.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
But Christmas Tree stores in ten exactly, so, so I
had found out later on that he freaked out.

Speaker 4 (01:35:51):
Whatever whatever, They had sent Shawn Trees to work at
the Christmas Tree shop in Rhode Island. It's like, all
the way I crossed state lines. He found out that
she was there. Yeah, got a big fucking kitchen knife
or something. Drove all the way from Connecticut Rhode Island
across state lines.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
How far is that? That's like, eh, pretty far? How many?
Like an hour?

Speaker 4 (01:36:12):
I'm horrible with maps, And so an hour you guys
were talking about where Delaware was, and I was.

Speaker 2 (01:36:18):
Like, yeah, I see too, I see too.

Speaker 4 (01:36:20):
Two hours yeah, someone like, I mean pretty far, okay,
And so he drove across state lines, found out that
she was working at this Christmas Tree shop, sat out front,
waited for her to leave for the night. Drove back
to her house and then killed her in the house,
stabbed her some like seventy eight times.

Speaker 1 (01:36:38):
Whoa wow.

Speaker 4 (01:36:39):
At first it was like forty five times, and he
was like, put her in the car, drove away with her. Yeah,
so he drove away with her in the car. Then
apparently he was like, oh that forty five was not enough.
He got out of the car, stabbed her another like
thirty times.

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
Yeah, sh and then.

Speaker 4 (01:36:54):
Took her body through it in like a ravine somewhere
and threw a toilet on top of her.

Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
Yeah, Zack, right, like fucking Zach Yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:37:03):
Yeah, and so h yeah, that was he established seventy
times through her and whatever. They found her like a
week and a half later. Yeah, and he had no
idea who it was. But then they had blood evidence
that she like trying to fight him or something. They
found blood evidence undereath her nails. Yeah, and realized that
he was the one who got fired in Connecticut. Ted
all back together and when found him. So now he's

(01:37:25):
doing life in Rhode Island.

Speaker 1 (01:37:26):
Wow. Oh dang, that was amazing. It's pretty crazy. That
was a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
You think you kind of know someone good old Christmas
tree shop, Yeah, you know, what you see that bull
cut you just walk then every right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
All right, thank you, thank you Andrew. That was awesome,
Thank you so much, thank you. All right, thank you
so much. Thanks for being here. Huh, thanks you guys,
thank you. That was so cool.

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
Look yeah, yeah, I leave that for That was our
last hometown of the show. Yeah, best friends, best friends,
brand new best friends.

Speaker 1 (01:38:07):
They'll be signing autographs on that lobby after this and
we're back.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
There are no updates for either of those hometown cases,
just to keep everybody apprized at our researchers always look
and see just in case there's a little something to
tell you there ain't.

Speaker 1 (01:38:26):
Nope.

Speaker 2 (01:38:26):
So this episode was originally titled Live at the Keswick Theater.

Speaker 1 (01:38:30):
If we were naming it today based on some funny
shit from the episode, maybe we call it Sophisticated Miss
Come on, I love vintage tags almost as much as
I love vintage clothing. Then they make you laugh like
they're just so ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:38:44):
It's ridiculous, and it's like time and place kind of
thing is like.

Speaker 1 (01:38:47):
That little reveals. It's so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:38:50):
Or we could call it old Anvil, which was my
joke about you buying all the heaviest things that you
wouldn't want to travel with when you shop on the road.

Speaker 1 (01:38:58):
And I still do that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:39:00):
And then also Franklin. You guys, I called Hamilton Franklin.
That made me laugh so hard. Oh my god. It
just shows you how not ended fucking musical theater I
am Franklin.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
Also at the time, I think it was just starting
to be popular, so it's like it sounds even crazier today.

Speaker 1 (01:39:18):
It's like calling it the Little Morman, right, right, what's
it called Franklin? Yeah, they should do a musical about
Ben Franklin. Why isn't there one? I fucking gave the
twenty seventeen. I gave it basically on a platter poor
man's copyright. We already started on a podcast, that's right,
our idea. All right, well, thanks for listening, you guys.
We're gonna say goodbye from the Keswick Theater in twenty seventeen.

(01:39:38):
Goodbye bye, you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:39:43):
Okay, we've had the best time on this tour. It
has been so cool to be here with you in
real life and see that the bullshit we do in
George's apartment actually matters to seemingly a shit.

Speaker 1 (01:39:57):
Ton of people. It's such a huge compliment. Uh, it
really is, Like, and every single fucking person we've met
on this tour has been cool and someone we would
be friends with and hang out with. It's so fucking
nice and awesome and we feel so lucky.

Speaker 2 (01:40:15):
Yeah we so we talk about it all the time. Yeah,
you're crying. We talk about it all the time. Though,
they're just like, we keep saying that dements. We're like,
can we just keep doing this? We want to do
this for a living. How could you not want to
do this for fucking a living. So thank you for
you guys being here, buying tickets, supporting us is the
reason we can even do it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:37):
Thank you so much, Philadelphia so much. You are an
amazing crowd.

Speaker 2 (01:40:44):
Stay sexy, bye you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:40:49):
Thank you

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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 77: Live At The Keswick Theatre

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Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

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