The birth of a child is considered a happy affair that many expectant parents look forward to celebrating when their child arrives. However, what happens when the mother dies due to post-birth complications and leaves both her partner and her child behind? In an illuminating interview, Director Tonya Lewis Lee discusses how her documentary, “Aftershock”, highlights the healthcare inequalities that Black Women face when it comes to neonatal care, what people are doing to combat these issues, and how, even in times of great tragedy, people can still find ways to connect with one another to foster deep and meaningful relationships. Make sure to bring your scholar cap and your tissue box to this episode of Money Making Conversations Master Class as we delve into the topic of maternal healthcare in the United States.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you're about to make a change in your life
and you feel uncomfortable, that's the best feeling you can have.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Because for the first time in your life, you'll make a.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
New decision that's going to be best for you and
not what somebody told you to do. And that's when
all bets are off. Welcome to Money Making Conversation Masterclass.
I'm your host, Rashaan MacDonald. Our theme is there's no
perfect time to start following your dreams. I recognize that
we all have different definitions of success.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
For you and maybe decide.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
To your h it's time to stop reading other people's
success stories to start.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Living your own. Keep winning.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
My guess is Tanya Lewis Lee and twenty twenty two.
Indie Wire featured Tanya on their twenty twenty two Rising
Female Filmmakers to Watch. She's a producer, film director, writer, entrepreneur,
and women's health advocate, delivering meaningful content that resonates with
marginalized communities for over twenty years on the heels of
our influential children's book. The US Department of Health partner
(01:03):
with Tanya as the spokesperson for their A Healthy Baby
Begins with You Infant mortality awareness campaign from two thousand
and seven to twenty thirteen. Tanya's on the show today
discuss her new documentary following the deaths of two young
women due to childbirth complications to breed families, galvanized activists,
birth workers, and physicians to reckon with one of the
(01:26):
most pressing American crisis today, the US maternal health crisis.
Lee co directed co produced After Shock, which examines the
US maternity mortality crisis. Please welcome to the Money Making
Conversation Masterclass. The wonderful Tanya Lewis Lee.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
How you doing.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I'm good, Rashan, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction,
and I'm happy to be here in conversation with you
about the film.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
We know I want the reason I hopefully I did
you justice in your intro, because to do a documentary
like this, there has to be some history, has to
be a person who just didn't and have a good idea,
came across a good story and made this amazing documentary
and by at least giving this background and it'll let
(02:10):
them know that a lot of emotional a lot of history,
a lot of experience went into creating Aftershock. Talk tell
us about how you got involved with this project.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yes, and like I said, I really did appreciate your
introduction because you know, it was because of my children's book,
Please Baby, Please, that the US Department of Helping Human
Services reached out to me and asked me to be
a spokesperson where their infant mortality awareness raising campaign, A
Healthy Baby Begins with You. And it was through that
campaign that I was able to travel the country and
(02:43):
learn first of all about infant mortality. I didn't realize
the US at the time when I first started had
an issue with into mortality in the United States. I
didn't realize that black babies, like black mothers, are dying
at three to four times the rate of white babies
in this country, and I didn't know about so I
didn't know about the disparity.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
So through my travels, I.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Had the opportunity to meet and talk with lots of women.
Inevitably a woman would tell me a story about a friend,
a sister, cousin, somebody who had passed away from childbirth complications.
So it had been something that I had been thinking
about for a while because I was hearing it firsthand
from the community. And then back in twenty seventeen, twenty
(03:27):
eighteen of the New York Times pro Publica started reporting
on the issue of maternal mortality here in this country,
and it seemed like then was the time to really
go out there and make this film to raise the
awareness so that we can do things to bring the
make for better outcomes.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Well, let's talk about that, making the fan, producing it,
getting the concept in place, because this is a personal
project from a standpoint, is about African Americans. It's about
them being at the high end of the mortality rate.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's also some history. It tells you.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
This is a documentary and informs it educates you, especially
in the end. How would you when you presented this
project and start producing it. Were there any pushback or
people didn't understand exactly the message you was trying to
deliver with aftershock?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I do think that when we first started working on
the film, not so much pushback, but I think that
people did like, what is this really about?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
How are you really going to tell the story?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Because it is such a huge systemic issue, And I
think initially some people thought, well, it's about black women's health,
so it shouldn't cost so much.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Your budgets too high, bring it down, and we really.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Felt like the story needed to be told in a
way through people's lived experience, not as a survey film
just people talking to camera, although we do have a
couple of experts, and we felt that the film deserved
to be told the right way, and so it would
cost what it would cost to make it, and we
stuck to our guns and made the film that we
(05:05):
wanted to make.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Well, you know, what people don't take in perspective is
that when you're dealing with emotions, they can't be action. Okay,
it has to be captured, it has to be it
has to be authentic, it has to be there for
the moments. So sometimes hours, sometimes days are put into
perspective to gather those moments because this is an emotionally
charged documentary because it involves death. And that's which leads
(05:31):
to the title after shock, you know, because of the
fact that you know, you always hear this when children
die before their parents. They say, no parent wants to
bury their child. The goal is for the child to
outlive the parents. And this situation is about relationships. How
did you encounter the individual that you are featuring in
(05:51):
your documentary?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, it was really something else.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Shamani Gibson passed away in October twenty nineteen. In December
twenty nineteen, her mother and her mother, Shawnnie Gibson and
her partner Amari Maynard, decided to have an event that
they called Aftershock, which was essentially a celebration of Shamani's life,
but at the same time, they wanted to have a
(06:16):
conversation with the community, so they put out an invitation on.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Social media that we saw.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
We reached out to Shannie and to Omari and asked
if we could film, and you know, it was really
wonderful that they allowed us to come in and film
because they wanted the word to get out about not
just what happened to Shamani, but about the birthing outcomes in.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
The black community.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
And Amari was someone who is someone who when he
hears of a father who has been left behind because
his partner has passed away from childbirth complications, he reaches
out to them and says, hey, brother, I got you.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
I'm here to support you.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
And he did that for Bruce mcinto when Amber Rose
Isaac passed.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Away in April of twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
And he reached out to him just to offer support,
told him about the film, and then Bruce, you know,
joined with us and so and for the same reason
because a week after Amber passed away, Bruce had a
press conference because he wanted to be in conversation with community.
He wanted to demand accountability for Amber's death, but he
(07:26):
also wanted to have the conversation. And so we were
very fortunate that we were able to catch up with
Shannie Omari and Bruce so that we could tell the
story because they wanted to tell the story.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Just talking to our audience.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You know, I love talking to talented people like Tellia
Lewis Lee. You know she said, we've reached out to them.
May now they allowed us to come in. You better
have a name you can google. You better have a reputation, You.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Better have a brand.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
You better have an awareness that you just don't call
somebody at a very dark emotional moment in life, say
we want to come in and videotape without a reputation
that they know you have their, you have their their
their goodwill at heart. This is the twenty twenty two
I said to the top rising filmmaker to watch by
ind Wire, and that reputation that you've developed over the
(08:15):
year is part of your brand allows you to get
in a door and use your name to be able
to not only push back on the money, which.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I was really taking it back. We said, well this
black women, why is it so high?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
And they we get that. We get that a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Because I've been in the television business for a long time.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
When I was a Steve Harvey was over the WB
and the WB.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Sitcoms were cheaper produced even though it was on the
same platform as a white sitcom. So the dollar wealth
gap they talk about in the world is also entertainment too,
by the way, if y'all don't know that, and so
you have to deal with those issues and you're able
to overcome it.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Is it the relationships?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Is it being able to have the resume that you have,
the experience, be able to counter the conversation that allows
you to be successful in this really polarized entertainment business
that we call.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
You know, supposed to be equally equal.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Yeah, I think that it is true.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
I mean, having having a reputation, having a you know,
a track record, if you will, certainly does help. And
stacking the deck as you go, right, Dawn Porter is
also an amazing documentary filmmaker who's an executive producer on
our film Aftershock. Uh, and so having her there, you know,
(09:34):
you're right, Shawnnie, o'mari and Bruce were very aware of
myself and my work and so and they trusted me.
You know, we Shawnie and o'mari from Brooklyn. Uh, you know,
we are Brooklyn people.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
They know my.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Husband is you know, represent the Republic of Brooklyn all
the time.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So there is that comfort.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
And I'll tell you I felt a real responsibility to
make sure that we on aired uh Shamani and Amber
and represented the family in a way that is authentic
and true to the spirit of who they are.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Really interesting when I got an opportunity, when the interview
came to me, it came across my deskings we'll show
you got a interview.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I got an interviewer, and I go, Okay, what's she doing?
What's she talking about?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And then when they when they when they sent me
the log line on the documentary. I have six sisters,
okay and uh, and so I come from a family,
a big family.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Nine kids.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Both my parents are staying home with us for Inner
City and so I'm very much aware of a sudden
loss of life, so I know that. You know, sometimes
you have to be honest with your audience and let
them know that this is not just a story. To me,
it's a personal journey. The emotional loss, the sunniness, the shock,
(10:50):
the anger, the comfort that you don't care about, you know,
because the comfort can't change what has happened. Uh the
future that you were planning that is cut off, you know,
the plans. It's just so many emotions unless you've personally
been there. And I was personally engaged with the two
(11:13):
men who are prominently featured in your documentary because I
was shocked and still shocked. I still think, I still reminiss,
I still do the what ifs, and so all these
things you have to take into perspective doing this. You
have to be a level of sensitivity that this is
beyond just recording a story. This is a journey that
(11:36):
they guess what we will never forget. I will never
turn my back onto what IFFs. I will never forget
those moments of moments. But it's something that you, through
through brilliant hands and experience, have allowed me to take
that journey again.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And I thought I would never do that again.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Tanya, Please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with
more Money Making Conversations Master Class. Welcome back to the
Money Making Conversations Masterclass hosted by Rushaan McDonald.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Well, Well, I do hope that in watching their journey
Amari Maynard and Bruce McIntyre.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
That there is comfort in that because you are not alone,
and I think that there are a lot of men.
And one of the things that.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I think is really exciting to come out of the
film because of Bruce and Omari, is that black men
and men in general are talking about paternal mental health, right.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
I think you know, often when a woman has a child.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
We think of maternal health as just just being about
a woman, but it is about a man too, because
it still takes two to make a baby, and men
go through the process as well, and then when there's
a loss, they're the ones left behind, as in our case,
to raise the children on their own and they need
(12:57):
support and they have.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I've learned Bruce and Amari.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
How to support one another, how to support other fathers,
and to really engage in this conversation of what does
it mean to be a man to have lost in
this way, and I think it's a really great opportunity
for us to have that conversation, get men talking more,
being more vulnerableout with their feelings with each other so
(13:24):
that they too can heal.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
And it's important, like I said, when I look at
what you are doing and what you're presenting and we're
talking to Tanya Lewis Lee. A documentary was called Aftershock.
What I did realize is that you always hear that
term it's a miracle to have a healthy baby. When
something like this happens to you, you realize that it's
absolutely the truth.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It is a miracle to go through the birth process.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I'm talking about their mom. It's a miracle for the
baby to come health out healthy. You know, every day
after that baby's born, you're touching them, making sure they
breathing you. You just it's just a journey, making sure
they sit up right, to make sure they when they.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Lean to left, lean to the left.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
All those journeys and all those stories are being told
in your documentary because it's over a serious it's not
just a six month period years.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
As you see the growth and is.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Shown in footage when you're putting the piece in all
this together what is your thought process, Tanya and Tanya
and making sure that we understand the journey, the pain,
and potential results of what you're trying to accomplish with
this documentary.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, it was really important for us to tell the
story of the US maternal mortality crisis.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Through the people who have lost.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
At the same time, we wanted to balance that with
solutions because this is not something that we can't fix.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
We did not want the film to be.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Just sad and tell you a problem and then leave
you with like now and so we really and we
also wanted to give you context of how we got here,
so we talk a little bit about history. We balance
out with experts who explain to us how we got here,
what are the problems, and how do we fix it.
(15:18):
I also have to say that Shawnnie, o'mari and Bruce
are activists. So they did they did lose their family member,
but they also became very activated and they are inspirational
in that they turn their pain into power, as Amari
says in the.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Film, and are really trying to make it better and
not just for.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Their family, but for all of us so that we
can have better outcomes. So it was really important with
the film to balance sort of the hard truth with
what can be positive, the positive potential outcomes that we
can have, and to showcase that there are a lot
of people on the ground doing this work. There are
(15:57):
reproductive rights, reproductive justice rights, reproductive rights people out there
doing the work, warriors doing the work every day, getting
very little shine, very little money for the for the
fact of all of us.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
You know what what what angers me and it's a positive,
well I should say positive is that you know, their
loss forced them become an expert, forced them to become
an expert, and that's not right, and that's would shine
the most out of this documentary is that the whole documentary.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Is about it is not right. It should not be happening.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And these two men, in this entire family of experts
and galvanized for a greater cause, are here because people
the system failed them.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The system failed them and so many ways it failed them.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And some of it's tied to because any lead project,
they're going to lead project is going to educate you,
by the way, and then they they you went into
the educational book and I'm gaining knowledge when you realize
that you know, c sections make money.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
They do the hospital. That's the big payer. We're going
to do a C section. It's gonna make us some money.
And then but I really really got.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Into a portion of the documentary when we were talking
about midwives and that really you know, I actually played
that back.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You know, I went, this is really because you know,
I don't think I know it all.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
But when I see if my minors sociology, black history,
uh was my was my minor in college, got my
little straight a's. And when I get information that delves
into this area, I go, you got to be kidding me.
But when you hear the truth, how stunned were you
or were you aware when you started doing this research
and reading about the midwives?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah, the midwives situation is when you really think about it,
it is so crazy. The United States is the only
developed nation that does not have midwives integrated into women's health,
and that is based on a racist premise because black
midwives were those that took care of everyone giving birth
(18:08):
back in the day, not just black women, but white
women too.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
But when modern medicine came in, they took the.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Economy of birthing out of the hands of black women
put it into the hands of doctors, white doctors put
and trying to push us all to go into hospitals
so that they could have the economy, and then launched
a campaign against midwives, telling us that they're dirty, they're witches,
they're dangerous. That still exists today, and it is it is.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
It is not good for us, it's killing us.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And so I was actually really surprised by that and
really grateful to Helena Grant, who is the midwife in
the film, who is an amazing historian.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Amazing let's say, at one more time, tellya amazing.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Amazing Helena Grant.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
We could have had an entire film with just a
camera on Helena telling us so much. There was so
much we couldn't put into the film that she educated
us on.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
You know, we always talk about, you know, this critical
theory that runs around and people don't want to give
you the facts about life and history. And this is
one of those great moments when I hear about people
trying to deny actual history. This is something that happened,
is something that is because it happened, That means it's
happening today. That means that people have been outlawed and
(19:25):
participating who cared about the process instead of being hired
to do the process, which is a big difference. And
you guys make that distinction in aftershock talk about that.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I mean, look, I think that again with midwives, they
were there, they are still there.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
I mean, the idea is to educate you about your.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Body, right and midwife is there from before you get
pregnant to why you're pregnant postpartum. A lot most of
these deaths happen postpartum, and midwives are there to watch you,
educate you about your body, and really empower you so
that your body can do what you needed to do.
The thing about guynecologists and obstetricians is that they're they're
(20:12):
really surgeons, and so they're really looking for a problem.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
You know, they're and they're ready to operate.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
And again I just want to say, sea sections are
really important. Thank god we have them because they are
necessary in the right situation. But what has happened in
this country, as you mentioned, is that it's become about money.
It's to come about the economics. So we find ourselves
sort of rushed and pushed into unnecessary sea sections, which
(20:38):
are major surgery.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Which will cause which can cause problems later down.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
The line Tanya Lewis Lee, my wife had a beautiful daughter. Okay,
And when the opportunity presented itself, they said, mister McDonald,
would you like to be in the room while your
wife delivers? I said no, I said, I wait outside.
Please let me know when that beautiful child is born,
and I come in with all the drama, all the trauma,
(21:05):
all that is gone, ladies.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Said Jeb after shot.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
I was shot because I got to see you the
actual delivery of a child. Now I say that, I
don't know if I should say thank you for allowing
me to see that, because I wasn't traumatized like I
thought I would be. But the fact that you were
able to I wouldn't say the word convince a couple
to allow that to be filmed, but it would talk
(21:30):
about that whole process that because that was amazing.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Again again, we were so lucky to find an amazing couple.
We didn't have to convince them. You know, Felicia and
Paul Ellis they you know, Felicia was pregnant in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
There was a DULA service there.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
The Tulsa Birth Equity Initiative reached out to her and
said we can. We can get you a dula if
you'd like, and she said yes, and that's how we
met Felicia. Felicia wanted to share her experience because, as
she says in the film, being a black woman, a
pregnant black woman is like being a black man at
(22:13):
a traffic stop. You have to pay attention every step
of the way. So she was really willing to allow
us to go on the journey with her. And again,
as she says in the film, she's thinking, she's just
going to give.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Birth a regular way, you know, with a doctor.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And at a hospital, but then towards the end of
her pregnancy, she's like, wait a minute, maybe there's another way,
and allowed us to go with her and find the
birthing center and the midwives that would attend with her
at her birth, and her husband attended with her.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
She was glad we got you to see.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
The birthn't traumatizing.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Now what at misleep, We have a relationship. Now you
took your boy down the road. I thought I wouldn't
go see again every in my life. But I want
to thank you. I want to thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I want to think thank you because of who you are,
because you people trusted you. You're telling a very powerful story,
a very needy story. After Shock, which is currently airing
on Hulu. It examines the U as a maternal mortality crisis,
and always when you hear the word crisis, somehow it
just falls heavily on the black and brown community. And
(23:19):
we talk about that, and it must be talked, and
it will continue to be talked. And I just I
know we're about to wrap up. I will tell you
something about me personally. I for somehow, my life has
been interesting. When I was a senior in high school,
way back in nineteen seventy six, I was I did
a report. My senior class report was about morphine babies,
babies who were born addicted to drugs. So I've always
(23:43):
had this journey, this this knowledge to make it right
within the black community and to know and then then
to go from nineteen seventy six to see your documentary
in twenty twenty two, All like I say is Wow, Wow,
that's a blessing. That's a blessing to know that I've
met a person who has the same values I have.
(24:03):
I didn't continue down that lane, but you brought me back,
and you brought me back with a slap up side
of the head said boy, get back in that saddle,
will you will? You would head it down the right track.
I will promote this for you. I would tell people
about it as much as I can possibly tell about
social media and my newsletters and everything. Fantastic project. And
again thank you for coming on Money Making Conversation Masterclass.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Thank you so much for the conversation with Sean. What
a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Thank you And if you want to see this video
or here, please go to money Making Conversation dot com.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I'm with Sean McDonald. I am your host.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
Thank you for joining us for this edition of money
Making Conversations Masterclass. Money Making Conversations Masterclass with rough Shan
McDonald is produced by thirty eight fifteen Media Inc. More
information about thirty eight to fifteen Media Inc. Is available
at thirty eight fifteen media dot com. And always remember
to lead with your gifts.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
St
If you're about to make a change in your life
and you feel uncomfortable, that's the best feeling you can have.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Because for the first time in your life, you'll make a.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
New decision that's going to be best for you and
not what somebody told you to do. And that's when
all bets are off. Welcome to Money Making Conversation Masterclass.
I'm your host, Rashaan MacDonald. Our theme is there's no
perfect time to start following your dreams. I recognize that
we all have different definitions of success.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
For you and maybe decide.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
To your h it's time to stop reading other people's
success stories to start.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Living your own. Keep winning.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
My guess is Tanya Lewis Lee and twenty twenty two.
Indie Wire featured Tanya on their twenty twenty two Rising
Female Filmmakers to Watch. She's a producer, film director, writer, entrepreneur,
and women's health advocate, delivering meaningful content that resonates with
marginalized communities for over twenty years on the heels of
our influential children's book. The US Department of Health partner
(01:03):
with Tanya as the spokesperson for their A Healthy Baby
Begins with You Infant mortality awareness campaign from two thousand
and seven to twenty thirteen. Tanya's on the show today
discuss her new documentary following the deaths of two young
women due to childbirth complications to breed families, galvanized activists,
birth workers, and physicians to reckon with one of the
(01:26):
most pressing American crisis today, the US maternal health crisis.
Lee co directed co produced After Shock, which examines the
US maternity mortality crisis. Please welcome to the Money Making
Conversation Masterclass. The wonderful Tanya Lewis Lee.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
How you doing.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I'm good, Rashan, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction,
and I'm happy to be here in conversation with you
about the film.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
We know I want the reason I hopefully I did
you justice in your intro, because to do a documentary
like this, there has to be some history, has to
be a person who just didn't and have a good idea,
came across a good story and made this amazing documentary
and by at least giving this background and it'll let
(02:10):
them know that a lot of emotional a lot of history,
a lot of experience went into creating Aftershock. Talk tell
us about how you got involved with this project.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yes, and like I said, I really did appreciate your
introduction because you know, it was because of my children's book,
Please Baby, Please, that the US Department of Helping Human
Services reached out to me and asked me to be
a spokesperson where their infant mortality awareness raising campaign, A
Healthy Baby Begins with You. And it was through that
campaign that I was able to travel the country and
(02:43):
learn first of all about infant mortality. I didn't realize
the US at the time when I first started had
an issue with into mortality in the United States. I
didn't realize that black babies, like black mothers, are dying
at three to four times the rate of white babies
in this country, and I didn't know about so I
didn't know about the disparity.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
So through my travels, I.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Had the opportunity to meet and talk with lots of women.
Inevitably a woman would tell me a story about a friend,
a sister, cousin, somebody who had passed away from childbirth complications.
So it had been something that I had been thinking
about for a while because I was hearing it firsthand
from the community. And then back in twenty seventeen, twenty
(03:27):
eighteen of the New York Times pro Publica started reporting
on the issue of maternal mortality here in this country,
and it seemed like then was the time to really
go out there and make this film to raise the
awareness so that we can do things to bring the
make for better outcomes.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Well, let's talk about that, making the fan, producing it,
getting the concept in place, because this is a personal
project from a standpoint, is about African Americans. It's about
them being at the high end of the mortality rate.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's also some history. It tells you.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
This is a documentary and informs it educates you, especially
in the end. How would you when you presented this
project and start producing it. Were there any pushback or
people didn't understand exactly the message you was trying to
deliver with aftershock?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I do think that when we first started working on
the film, not so much pushback, but I think that
people did like, what is this really about?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
How are you really going to tell the story?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Because it is such a huge systemic issue, And I
think initially some people thought, well, it's about black women's health,
so it shouldn't cost so much.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Your budgets too high, bring it down, and we really.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Felt like the story needed to be told in a
way through people's lived experience, not as a survey film
just people talking to camera, although we do have a
couple of experts, and we felt that the film deserved
to be told the right way, and so it would
cost what it would cost to make it, and we
stuck to our guns and made the film that we
(05:05):
wanted to make.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Well, you know, what people don't take in perspective is
that when you're dealing with emotions, they can't be action. Okay,
it has to be captured, it has to be it
has to be authentic, it has to be there for
the moments. So sometimes hours, sometimes days are put into
perspective to gather those moments because this is an emotionally
charged documentary because it involves death. And that's which leads
(05:31):
to the title after shock, you know, because of the
fact that you know, you always hear this when children
die before their parents. They say, no parent wants to
bury their child. The goal is for the child to
outlive the parents. And this situation is about relationships. How
did you encounter the individual that you are featuring in
(05:51):
your documentary?
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, it was really something else.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Shamani Gibson passed away in October twenty nineteen. In December
twenty nineteen, her mother and her mother, Shawnnie Gibson and
her partner Amari Maynard, decided to have an event that
they called Aftershock, which was essentially a celebration of Shamani's life,
but at the same time, they wanted to have a
(06:16):
conversation with the community, so they put out an invitation on.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Social media that we saw.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
We reached out to Shannie and to Omari and asked
if we could film, and you know, it was really
wonderful that they allowed us to come in and film
because they wanted the word to get out about not
just what happened to Shamani, but about the birthing outcomes in.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
The black community.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
And Amari was someone who is someone who when he
hears of a father who has been left behind because
his partner has passed away from childbirth complications, he reaches
out to them and says, hey, brother, I got you.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
I'm here to support you.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
And he did that for Bruce mcinto when Amber Rose
Isaac passed.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Away in April of twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
And he reached out to him just to offer support,
told him about the film, and then Bruce, you know,
joined with us and so and for the same reason
because a week after Amber passed away, Bruce had a
press conference because he wanted to be in conversation with community.
He wanted to demand accountability for Amber's death, but he
(07:26):
also wanted to have the conversation. And so we were
very fortunate that we were able to catch up with
Shannie Omari and Bruce so that we could tell the
story because they wanted to tell the story.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Just talking to our audience.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You know, I love talking to talented people like Tellia
Lewis Lee. You know she said, we've reached out to them.
May now they allowed us to come in. You better
have a name you can google. You better have a reputation, You.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Better have a brand.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
You better have an awareness that you just don't call
somebody at a very dark emotional moment in life, say
we want to come in and videotape without a reputation
that they know you have their, you have their their
their goodwill at heart. This is the twenty twenty two
I said to the top rising filmmaker to watch by
ind Wire, and that reputation that you've developed over the
(08:15):
year is part of your brand allows you to get
in a door and use your name to be able
to not only push back on the money, which.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I was really taking it back. We said, well this
black women, why is it so high?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
And they we get that. We get that a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Because I've been in the television business for a long time.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
When I was a Steve Harvey was over the WB
and the WB.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Sitcoms were cheaper produced even though it was on the
same platform as a white sitcom. So the dollar wealth
gap they talk about in the world is also entertainment too,
by the way, if y'all don't know that, and so
you have to deal with those issues and you're able
to overcome it.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Is it the relationships?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Is it being able to have the resume that you have,
the experience, be able to counter the conversation that allows
you to be successful in this really polarized entertainment business
that we call.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
You know, supposed to be equally equal.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Yeah, I think that it is true.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
I mean, having having a reputation, having a you know,
a track record, if you will, certainly does help. And
stacking the deck as you go, right, Dawn Porter is
also an amazing documentary filmmaker who's an executive producer on
our film Aftershock. Uh, and so having her there, you know,
(09:34):
you're right, Shawnnie, o'mari and Bruce were very aware of
myself and my work and so and they trusted me.
You know, we Shawnie and o'mari from Brooklyn. Uh, you know,
we are Brooklyn people.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
They know my.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Husband is you know, represent the Republic of Brooklyn all
the time.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So there is that comfort.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
And I'll tell you I felt a real responsibility to
make sure that we on aired uh Shamani and Amber
and represented the family in a way that is authentic
and true to the spirit of who they are.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Really interesting when I got an opportunity, when the interview
came to me, it came across my deskings we'll show
you got a interview.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I got an interviewer, and I go, Okay, what's she doing?
What's she talking about?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And then when they when they when they sent me
the log line on the documentary. I have six sisters,
okay and uh, and so I come from a family,
a big family.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Nine kids.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Both my parents are staying home with us for Inner
City and so I'm very much aware of a sudden
loss of life, so I know that. You know, sometimes
you have to be honest with your audience and let
them know that this is not just a story. To me,
it's a personal journey. The emotional loss, the sunniness, the shock,
(10:50):
the anger, the comfort that you don't care about, you know,
because the comfort can't change what has happened. Uh the
future that you were planning that is cut off, you know,
the plans. It's just so many emotions unless you've personally
been there. And I was personally engaged with the two
(11:13):
men who are prominently featured in your documentary because I
was shocked and still shocked. I still think, I still reminiss,
I still do the what ifs, and so all these
things you have to take into perspective doing this. You
have to be a level of sensitivity that this is
beyond just recording a story. This is a journey that
(11:36):
they guess what we will never forget. I will never
turn my back onto what IFFs. I will never forget
those moments of moments. But it's something that you, through
through brilliant hands and experience, have allowed me to take
that journey again.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And I thought I would never do that again.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Tanya, Please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with
more Money Making Conversations Master Class. Welcome back to the
Money Making Conversations Masterclass hosted by Rushaan McDonald.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Well, Well, I do hope that in watching their journey
Amari Maynard and Bruce McIntyre.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
That there is comfort in that because you are not alone,
and I think that there are a lot of men.
And one of the things that.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I think is really exciting to come out of the
film because of Bruce and Omari, is that black men
and men in general are talking about paternal mental health, right.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
I think you know, often when a woman has a child.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
We think of maternal health as just just being about
a woman, but it is about a man too, because
it still takes two to make a baby, and men
go through the process as well, and then when there's
a loss, they're the ones left behind, as in our case,
to raise the children on their own and they need
(12:57):
support and they have.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I've learned Bruce and Amari.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
How to support one another, how to support other fathers,
and to really engage in this conversation of what does
it mean to be a man to have lost in
this way, and I think it's a really great opportunity
for us to have that conversation, get men talking more,
being more vulnerableout with their feelings with each other so
(13:24):
that they too can heal.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
And it's important, like I said, when I look at
what you are doing and what you're presenting and we're
talking to Tanya Lewis Lee. A documentary was called Aftershock.
What I did realize is that you always hear that
term it's a miracle to have a healthy baby. When
something like this happens to you, you realize that it's
absolutely the truth.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It is a miracle to go through the birth process.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I'm talking about their mom. It's a miracle for the
baby to come health out healthy. You know, every day
after that baby's born, you're touching them, making sure they
breathing you. You just it's just a journey, making sure
they sit up right, to make sure they when they.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Lean to left, lean to the left.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
All those journeys and all those stories are being told
in your documentary because it's over a serious it's not
just a six month period years.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
As you see the growth and is.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Shown in footage when you're putting the piece in all
this together what is your thought process, Tanya and Tanya
and making sure that we understand the journey, the pain,
and potential results of what you're trying to accomplish with
this documentary.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, it was really important for us to tell the
story of the US maternal mortality crisis.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Through the people who have lost.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
At the same time, we wanted to balance that with
solutions because this is not something that we can't fix.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
We did not want the film to be.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Just sad and tell you a problem and then leave
you with like now and so we really and we
also wanted to give you context of how we got here,
so we talk a little bit about history. We balance
out with experts who explain to us how we got here,
what are the problems, and how do we fix it.
(15:18):
I also have to say that Shawnnie, o'mari and Bruce
are activists. So they did they did lose their family member,
but they also became very activated and they are inspirational
in that they turn their pain into power, as Amari
says in the.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Film, and are really trying to make it better and
not just for.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Their family, but for all of us so that we
can have better outcomes. So it was really important with
the film to balance sort of the hard truth with
what can be positive, the positive potential outcomes that we
can have, and to showcase that there are a lot
of people on the ground doing this work. There are
(15:57):
reproductive rights, reproductive justice rights, reproductive rights people out there
doing the work, warriors doing the work every day, getting
very little shine, very little money for the for the
fact of all of us.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
You know what what what angers me and it's a positive,
well I should say positive is that you know, their
loss forced them become an expert, forced them to become
an expert, and that's not right, and that's would shine
the most out of this documentary is that the whole documentary.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Is about it is not right. It should not be happening.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And these two men, in this entire family of experts
and galvanized for a greater cause, are here because people
the system failed them.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The system failed them and so many ways it failed them.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And some of it's tied to because any lead project,
they're going to lead project is going to educate you,
by the way, and then they they you went into
the educational book and I'm gaining knowledge when you realize
that you know, c sections make money.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
They do the hospital. That's the big payer. We're going
to do a C section. It's gonna make us some money.
And then but I really really got.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Into a portion of the documentary when we were talking
about midwives and that really you know, I actually played
that back.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You know, I went, this is really because you know,
I don't think I know it all.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
But when I see if my minors sociology, black history,
uh was my was my minor in college, got my
little straight a's. And when I get information that delves
into this area, I go, you got to be kidding me.
But when you hear the truth, how stunned were you
or were you aware when you started doing this research
and reading about the midwives?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah, the midwives situation is when you really think about it,
it is so crazy. The United States is the only
developed nation that does not have midwives integrated into women's health,
and that is based on a racist premise because black
midwives were those that took care of everyone giving birth
(18:08):
back in the day, not just black women, but white
women too.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
But when modern medicine came in, they took the.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Economy of birthing out of the hands of black women
put it into the hands of doctors, white doctors put
and trying to push us all to go into hospitals
so that they could have the economy, and then launched
a campaign against midwives, telling us that they're dirty, they're witches,
they're dangerous. That still exists today, and it is it is.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
It is not good for us, it's killing us.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And so I was actually really surprised by that and
really grateful to Helena Grant, who is the midwife in
the film, who is an amazing historian.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Amazing let's say, at one more time, tellya amazing.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Amazing Helena Grant.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
We could have had an entire film with just a
camera on Helena telling us so much. There was so
much we couldn't put into the film that she educated
us on.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
You know, we always talk about, you know, this critical
theory that runs around and people don't want to give
you the facts about life and history. And this is
one of those great moments when I hear about people
trying to deny actual history. This is something that happened,
is something that is because it happened, That means it's
happening today. That means that people have been outlawed and
(19:25):
participating who cared about the process instead of being hired
to do the process, which is a big difference. And
you guys make that distinction in aftershock talk about that.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I mean, look, I think that again with midwives, they
were there, they are still there.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
I mean, the idea is to educate you about your.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Body, right and midwife is there from before you get
pregnant to why you're pregnant postpartum. A lot most of
these deaths happen postpartum, and midwives are there to watch you,
educate you about your body, and really empower you so
that your body can do what you needed to do.
The thing about guynecologists and obstetricians is that they're they're
(20:12):
really surgeons, and so they're really looking for a problem.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
You know, they're and they're ready to operate.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
And again I just want to say, sea sections are
really important. Thank god we have them because they are
necessary in the right situation. But what has happened in
this country, as you mentioned, is that it's become about money.
It's to come about the economics. So we find ourselves
sort of rushed and pushed into unnecessary sea sections, which
(20:38):
are major surgery.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Which will cause which can cause problems later down.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
The line Tanya Lewis Lee, my wife had a beautiful daughter. Okay,
And when the opportunity presented itself, they said, mister McDonald,
would you like to be in the room while your
wife delivers? I said no, I said, I wait outside.
Please let me know when that beautiful child is born,
and I come in with all the drama, all the trauma,
(21:05):
all that is gone, ladies.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Said Jeb after shot.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
I was shot because I got to see you the
actual delivery of a child. Now I say that, I
don't know if I should say thank you for allowing
me to see that, because I wasn't traumatized like I
thought I would be. But the fact that you were
able to I wouldn't say the word convince a couple
to allow that to be filmed, but it would talk
(21:30):
about that whole process that because that was amazing.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Again again, we were so lucky to find an amazing couple.
We didn't have to convince them. You know, Felicia and
Paul Ellis they you know, Felicia was pregnant in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
There was a DULA service there.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
The Tulsa Birth Equity Initiative reached out to her and
said we can. We can get you a dula if
you'd like, and she said yes, and that's how we
met Felicia. Felicia wanted to share her experience because, as
she says in the film, being a black woman, a
pregnant black woman is like being a black man at
(22:13):
a traffic stop. You have to pay attention every step
of the way. So she was really willing to allow
us to go on the journey with her. And again,
as she says in the film, she's thinking, she's just
going to give.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Birth a regular way, you know, with a doctor.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And at a hospital, but then towards the end of
her pregnancy, she's like, wait a minute, maybe there's another way,
and allowed us to go with her and find the
birthing center and the midwives that would attend with her
at her birth, and her husband attended with her.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
She was glad we got you to see.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
The birthn't traumatizing.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Now what at misleep, We have a relationship. Now you
took your boy down the road. I thought I wouldn't
go see again every in my life. But I want
to thank you. I want to thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I want to think thank you because of who you are,
because you people trusted you. You're telling a very powerful story,
a very needy story. After Shock, which is currently airing
on Hulu. It examines the U as a maternal mortality crisis,
and always when you hear the word crisis, somehow it
just falls heavily on the black and brown community. And
(23:19):
we talk about that, and it must be talked, and
it will continue to be talked. And I just I
know we're about to wrap up. I will tell you
something about me personally. I for somehow, my life has
been interesting. When I was a senior in high school,
way back in nineteen seventy six, I was I did
a report. My senior class report was about morphine babies,
babies who were born addicted to drugs. So I've always
(23:43):
had this journey, this this knowledge to make it right
within the black community and to know and then then
to go from nineteen seventy six to see your documentary
in twenty twenty two, All like I say is Wow, Wow,
that's a blessing. That's a blessing to know that I've
met a person who has the same values I have.
(24:03):
I didn't continue down that lane, but you brought me back,
and you brought me back with a slap up side
of the head said boy, get back in that saddle,
will you will? You would head it down the right track.
I will promote this for you. I would tell people
about it as much as I can possibly tell about
social media and my newsletters and everything. Fantastic project. And
again thank you for coming on Money Making Conversation Masterclass.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Thank you so much for the conversation with Sean. What
a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Thank you And if you want to see this video
or here, please go to money Making Conversation dot com.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I'm with Sean McDonald. I am your host.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
Thank you for joining us for this edition of money
Making Conversations Masterclass. Money Making Conversations Masterclass with rough Shan
McDonald is produced by thirty eight fifteen Media Inc. More
information about thirty eight to fifteen Media Inc. Is available
at thirty eight fifteen media dot com. And always remember
to lead with your gifts.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
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